LC Roadmap

Sun Feb 14 12:25:11 EST 2021

 Curry,
Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed in FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my coding to LiveCode.

I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with a plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile support has become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and center is: English like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all I want to do is write “Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything non-trivial, you need to delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously helpful at building user interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with ever changing security challenges. The help files are great at the most trivial tasks, but to do beyond can be challenging. That said, I am committed to Livecode and congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.

I would like to see:
Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy who produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a modest subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential clients for this, but what if a small team of live coders created something like this that would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in new users and take them to the next level with video, sample projects, and text materials? Perhaps the mothership could support and advise while user Fees pass to the authors. Just thinking.

That’s all for now. Valentine’s Day and breakfast beckon.

Best,
Bill Prothero

William Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:30 AM, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.
> 
> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
> 
> ________________________________
> From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
> To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Curry Kenworthy <curry at pair.com>
> Subject: Re: LC Roadmap
> 
> 
> JeeJeeStudio:
> 
>> I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
>> lot of bugs are not solved.
> 
> True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
> We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
> (I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)
> 
> I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
> Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
> Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
> (We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)
> 
> Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
> Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.
> 
> Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
> Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
> Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??
> 
> My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
> Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
> Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.
> 
>> Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
>> people to program. But it runs behind future facts.
> 
> Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:
> 
> A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
> B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)
> 
> If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!
> 
> And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
> Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
> LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
> And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.
> 
> LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
> People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
> ("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
> Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.
> 
> I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
> (I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
> The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.
> 
> That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
> This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!
> 
> Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
> You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
> Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
> That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.
> 
> We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
> I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.
> 
>> HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..
> 
> Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.
> 
>> And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
>> as main language, it's free, it's the future
> 
> Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
> However, really the future? Maybe not!
> End of LC? "Hell no!" :D
> 
> (At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)
> 
> Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
> But also several other factors in play:
> 
> 2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
> 3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
> 4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
> 5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.
> 
> The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
> should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
> Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.
> 
> Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
> What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
> Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.
> 
> Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
> Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
> Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.
> 
> Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
> They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.
> 
> So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?
> 
> Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
> To reinvent every 5 minutes if the corporate bottom line demands it?
> To see the present and the future more clearly than I do myself?
> Bow to their proverbial calf and kiss their toes since they're big?
> 
> So incredibly tempting...(not really)...no thanks! :)
> I gave them a chance to improve the Internet, and they maimed it.
> With that much money and men, the only explanation is being clueless!
> Thus there's no chance in Hell that I'd ever trust them to be my IDE.
> 
> Nor would that in any way replace the special paradigm we enjoy here.
> 
> I'm one of the few who are all-in for LC:
> 100% specialized in this IDE/language. And loving it!!!
> (Except the problems we've discussed here; but I've adjusted tactics.)
> 
> I believe LC will grow, if they play their cards right.
> They were dealt a fabulous hand! I'll help on the paradigm when I can.
> The colossal failure to explain LC's strengths has been a roadblock.
> 
> LiveCode (owing much to its heritage) is a fantastic product.
> It's not Yet Another language/tool that can be swapped out easily.
> That may require deeper understanding to realize. We can work on that.
> There are problems, but things are actually pretty good right now!
> (With GOOD tactics. And some woes due to Apple/industry $$$ strategy.)
> 
> Richmond:
> 
>> because I don't want to be jumped all over again [...]
>> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>> Love. kisses, and other things,
> 
> I can only speak for me. (I'm independent, not a thought herd groupie.)
> But I must say that I enjoy your posts MUCH more than most!
> 
> You really have a way of bringing the conversation to life. That helps.
> Never a dull moment or dull phrase, and you have some good insights too.
> 
> So keep at it - sometimes criticism means you're doing something right!
> If people jump on you, they may be hoping for a trampoline effect.
> But you know trampolines: fun, but one wrong twist = a bad bruise.
> So don't give up. I'm a fan; hope you keep making interesting posts!
> 
> Worth repeating:
> 
> LiveCode (and HyperCard's heritage) is a fantastic product.
> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
> Even those at the top have missed parts of paradigm and unique benefits.
> Things are pretty good right now, if you have adapted GOOD tactics!
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
> 
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