Livecode Future
Kevin Stallibrass
kevin at stallibrass.com
Fri Aug 2 12:50:18 EDT 2024
Retiree’s comments:
I started with runtime revolution v1 when it was included on a PC Pro magazine all those years ago and immediately built my first program which was a neat utility (in 4 languages) which was used by my company. No fee, plenty cudos.
Continued using Runrev over the years to build tools for myself. Cudos from family and friends
Got a commercial licence when I created my only ‘big’ app which worked on PC’s, Macs, Android, & iOS, all talking to a Livecode server. Even included an iOS push notification server running on Rpi which was featured in the last RevUp newsletter.
Plenty cudos from company, no payment but avoided a redundancy round and got a free holiday for me and my wife in a swanky villa in the Med.
Favorite app was for iPad ( talking to server) which really helped our sales force - and phoned home when they used it.
Super cudos avoiding the next round of redundancies.
When that company finally folded, I reverted back to the community licence and built a few things for myself and family.
Long, boring story I know but the point i’d like to make is that Runrev enabled me to start coding. They supported me through commercial licence and community freebee’s
I’m retired but still grateful for what the Runrev team has enabled me to do. Thanks for your support Kevin and I sincerely hope you get through this change and continue to help people as stupid as myself succeed.
Regards
Kevin Stallibrass
Sent from my iPhone
> On 2 Aug 2024, at 17:01, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote:
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Late arrival to LiveCode Future (and possibly early leaver!)
> (Ben Rubinstein)
> 2. Re: Late arrival to LiveCode Future (and possibly early
> leaver!) (Kenji Kojima)
> 3. By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs BEYOND
> 2027! (Curry Kenworthy)
> 4. Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027! (Kaveh Bazargan)
> 5. Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027! (Roger Guay)
> 6. Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027! (jbv at souslelogo.com)
> 7. Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027! (Bob Sneidar)
> 8. Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027! (jbv at souslelogo.com)
> 9. Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027! (Mike Kerner)
> 10. Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027! (Heather Laine)
> 11. Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027! (Heather Laine)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 08:22:00 +0100
> From: Ben Rubinstein <benr_mc at cogapp.com>
> To: Use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Late arrival to LiveCode Future (and possibly early leaver!)
> Message-ID: <48549626-1050-46d4-a581-248870345cf8 at cogapp.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> I've been away, in various senses, and only just read about all this.
>
> I have enormous respect for Kevin and LiveCode.
>
> I've been using the product since it was Metacard, and Revolution (as it was
> then) was an enormous upgrade. The first bug I reported in the quality control
> centre was over 20 years ago (was there another system before then? I don't
> recall anymore). (And indeed the 64th report I made, marked as CONFIRMED but
> still not actioned, that I'd still like, was reported over 20 years ago... ?).
>
> I've used it to make tools for myself, a lot; tools for my colleagues a bit;
> tools for clients a bit. Mostly now it's tools for myself, which very rarely
> get built into standalones; but I still maintain a few tools for clients.
>
> As the world developed over the decades, I feared for Kevin's company,
> whatever it was variously called. I felt that they were pursuing an almost
> impossible mission, maintaining and extending an extremely niche language
> across multiple platforms - having to persuade potential clients to buy a
> language before they could try to persuade them to buy a product. I supported
> most or all of the various fundraisers, sometimes with my company's money but
> more often with my own, even for developments I'm not interested in like HTML
> and Xavvi; in solidarity. I'm sorry that the open source experiment didn't
> work out, I'm sorry that the Filemaker idea didn't work out.
>
> I am frankly surprised, and deeply impressed, that they have survived this
> long. It is a tribute to their tenacity and agility.
>
> They have the right to take the company and product in whatever direction they
> think will produce the best result, and I wish them all the best luck in the
> world.
>
> Having said all that:
>
> - Create is not for me.
>
> - I'll keep using Classic while I can
>
> - Please put everything we to need know in text - I can't watch videos*
>
> - Three things I don't yet know:
> - Is Classic changing in any way - e.g. will standalones phone home?
> - Classic supported to 2025 - is that Jan 1 2027, or Dec 31 2027?
> - When Classic goes EOL, will it stop working, or just not receive updates
> for new OS, app store rules etc?
>
> Thanks and all the best,
>
> Ben
>
>
> * doc hawk wrote (01/08/2024):
>> You say the as if expecting someone to view a video to get information
> wasn?t an act of Evil . . . :)
>
> - and probably against DDA/ADA/EA
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 05:59:25 -0400
> From: Kenji Kojima <index at kenjikojima.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: Late arrival to LiveCode Future (and possibly early
> leaver!)
> Message-ID: <52B83FC8-17BB-4AE1-BDE9-C84A39126005 at kenjikojima.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I agree Ben.
>
> I've used it to make tools for myself
> - Create is not for me.
> - I'll keep using Classic while I can
> - Please put everything we to need know in text
> - I can't watch videos*
>
> Best,
> --
> Kenji Kojima / ????
> http://www.kenjikojima.com/
>
>
>
>> On Aug 2, 2024, at 3:22?AM, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> I've been away, in various senses, and only just read about all this.
>> I have enormous respect for Kevin and LiveCode.
>> I've been using the product since it was Metacard, and Revolution (as it was then) was an enormous upgrade. The first bug I reported in the quality control centre was over 20 years ago (was there another system before then? I don't recall anymore). (And indeed the 64th report I made, marked as CONFIRMED but still not actioned, that I'd still like, was reported over 20 years ago... ?).
>> I've used it to make tools for myself, a lot; tools for my colleagues a bit; tools for clients a bit. Mostly now it's tools for myself, which very rarely get built into standalones; but I still maintain a few tools for clients.
>> As the world developed over the decades, I feared for Kevin's company, whatever it was variously called. I felt that they were pursuing an almost impossible mission, maintaining and extending an extremely niche language across multiple platforms - having to persuade potential clients to buy a language before they could try to persuade them to buy a product. I supported most or all of the various fundraisers, sometimes with my company's money but more often with my own, even for developments I'm not interested in like HTML and Xavvi; in solidarity. I'm sorry that the open source experiment didn't work out, I'm sorry that the Filemaker idea didn't work out.
>> I am frankly surprised, and deeply impressed, that they have survived this long. It is a tribute to their tenacity and agility.
>> They have the right to take the company and product in whatever direction they think will produce the best result, and I wish them all the best luck in the world.
>> Having said all that:
>> - Create is not for me.
>> - I'll keep using Classic while I can
>> - Please put everything we to need know in text - I can't watch videos*
>> - Three things I don't yet know:
>> - Is Classic changing in any way - e.g. will standalones phone home?
>> - Classic supported to 2025 - is that Jan 1 2027, or Dec 31 2027?
>> - When Classic goes EOL, will it stop working, or just not receive updates for new OS, app store rules etc?
>> Thanks and all the best,
>> Ben
>> * doc hawk wrote (01/08/2024):
>>> You say the as if expecting someone to view a video to get information wasn?t an act of Evil . . . :)
>> - and probably against DDA/ADA/EA
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 10:31:16 -0400
> From: Curry Kenworthy <curry at pair.com>
> To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Subject: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs BEYOND
> 2027!
> Message-ID: <ca707142-4ffc-40ee-9087-a3c232ed8dd5 at pair.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>
> Everyone I know wants to keep using LC Classic for a while.
> Most people still want it. Read this list. LC Classic is popular!
>
> Launching LC 10 as DOA or a 'lame duck' makes little sense.
> LC 9 and 10 are still heavily in demand under the old terms.
>
> (I'm not against progress; in fact, before Create was announced ...
> I knew of at least 3 independent next-gen projects for LiveCode.
> Including my own! None would have cost $ millions, but anyway. :)
> Make a smoother, friendlier LiveCode transition for best results.)
>
> So, how long can we access the bona fide LC 9 and 10 Classic IDEs?
> Given the widespread demand - Through end of 2028? 2029? 2030?
> For all those of us who keep existing subscriptions, at least.
> And maintain LC 10 platform support for that duration.
>
> (Old licensing terms for app builds created with them, of course.)
>
> Kudos to all those thinking the same thing, and speaking up!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Curry Kenworthy
>
> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development
> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!"
> https://livecodeconsulting.com/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 15:51:14 +0100
> From: Kaveh Bazargan <kaveh at rivervalley.io>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Curry Kenworthy <curry at pair.com>
> Subject: Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027!
> Message-ID:
> <CAJ2R9pgg_p6Hi4eDiTssm_Pn9DyjCNjJD4iRBjCsor=K0bUDHA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I've been half following the recent tweets but just don't have the mental
> capacity to keep up.
>
> FYI I used HyperCard since it was Beta and no manual!! I really commend
> what Kevin and team have done to keep the world's most friendly programming
> environment going. I wish I could just pay for LiveCode and use it. I am
> guessing that is what Classic is. But perhaps I am just getting too old!
>
> Regards
> Kaveh
>
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 at 15:32, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Everyone I know wants to keep using LC Classic for a while.
>> Most people still want it. Read this list. LC Classic is popular!
>> Launching LC 10 as DOA or a 'lame duck' makes little sense.
>> LC 9 and 10 are still heavily in demand under the old terms.
>> (I'm not against progress; in fact, before Create was announced ...
>> I knew of at least 3 independent next-gen projects for LiveCode.
>> Including my own! None would have cost $ millions, but anyway. :)
>> Make a smoother, friendlier LiveCode transition for best results.)
>> So, how long can we access the bona fide LC 9 and 10 Classic IDEs?
>> Given the widespread demand - Through end of 2028? 2029? 2030?
>> For all those of us who keep existing subscriptions, at least.
>> And maintain LC 10 platform support for that duration.
>> (Old licensing terms for app builds created with them, of course.)
>> Kudos to all those thinking the same thing, and speaking up!
>> Best wishes,
>> Curry Kenworthy
>> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development
>> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!"
>> https://livecodeconsulting.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> --
> Kaveh Bazargan PhD
> Director
> River Valley Technologies <http://rivervalley.io> ? Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/rivervalley1000> ? LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/bazargankaveh/> ? ORCID
> <https://orcid.org/0000-0002-1414-9098> ? @kaveh1000 at mastodon.social
> <https://mastodon.social/@kaveh1000>
> *Accelerating the Communication of Research*
>
> *
> <https://www.linkedin.com/posts/bazargankaveh_ismte-innovation-award-recipient-kaveh-bazargan-activity-7039348552526921728-XAEB/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop>
> [image:
> https://rivervalley.io/gigabyte-wins-the-alpsp-scholarly-publishing-innovation-award-using-river-valleys-publishing-technology/]
> <https://rivervalley.io/gigabyte-wins-the-alpsp-scholarly-publishing-innovation-award-using-river-valleys-publishing-technology/>*
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 07:59:43 -0700
> From: Roger Guay <irog at mac.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027!
> Message-ID: <FBBF2716-8A79-4B3B-8DD8-17A054BF188E at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I too am in the "Clasic Is For Me Crowd?
>
> - Been here since Metacard
> - Use LC strictly as a hobby
> - LC is extremely important to me as a hobby
> - Have created hundreds of tools, utilities, simulations, fun things just for shear enjoyment and mental exercise
> - Have frequent internet problems that interfere with cloud computing
> - Have participated in every fundraising campagne
> - Frequently contributed to Example Stacks including Alien Civilization Detection simulation
>
> I beg you, Kevin, don?t take this away from us
>
> Roger
>
>> On Aug 2, 2024, at 7:31?AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> Everyone I know wants to keep using LC Classic for a while.
>> Most people still want it. Read this list. LC Classic is popular!
>> Launching LC 10 as DOA or a 'lame duck' makes little sense.
>> LC 9 and 10 are still heavily in demand under the old terms.
>> (I'm not against progress; in fact, before Create was announced ...
>> I knew of at least 3 independent next-gen projects for LiveCode.
>> Including my own! None would have cost $ millions, but anyway. :)
>> Make a smoother, friendlier LiveCode transition for best results.)
>> So, how long can we access the bona fide LC 9 and 10 Classic IDEs?
>> Given the widespread demand - Through end of 2028? 2029? 2030?
>> For all those of us who keep existing subscriptions, at least.
>> And maintain LC 10 platform support for that duration.
>> (Old licensing terms for app builds created with them, of course.)
>> Kudos to all those thinking the same thing, and speaking up!
>> Best wishes,
>> Curry Kenworthy
>> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development
>> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!"
>> https://livecodeconsulting.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 11:13:05 -0400
> From: jbv at souslelogo.com
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027!
> Message-ID: <900b4b3c1e2f090b6a0c7ac6923b6804 at souslelogo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> Same here.
>
> I have been into hypertalk since the 1st version of HC.
>
> I have 2 desktop apps for 2 different clients that I maintain, and in
> each one
> the part developed with LC Classic is just a front end for sending
> requests to
> the server and displaying the incoming data. In both cases 80% of the
> tasks is
> done server side with LC on 2 on-rev accounts.
> I know for certain that none of my clients will accept to pay for
> per-seats
> license.
>
> So I have 2 options so far :
> - paying myself for these licenses, which I can't afford
> - rewrite the front-end of both apps with html/js and forget about LC.
>
> jbv
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 15:17:42 +0000
> From: Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027!
> Message-ID: <66C12BFE-0D1D-4FBB-8C9F-EFFCC1CB225A at iotecdigital.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Kevin has clearly made the point that it has become financially untenable to continue with the classic licensing model. You cannot mean that you want him to go bankrupt so that you can maintain your hobby! You are asking him for what he cannot give. It only remains then for all of us to decide what we can and cannot accept.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Aug 2, 2024, at 7:59 AM, Roger Guay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> I too am in the "Clasic Is For Me Crowd?
>
> - Been here since Metacard
> - Use LC strictly as a hobby
> - LC is extremely important to me as a hobby
> - Have created hundreds of tools, utilities, simulations, fun things just for shear enjoyment and mental exercise
> - Have frequent internet problems that interfere with cloud computing
> - Have participated in every fundraising campagne
> - Frequently contributed to Example Stacks including Alien Civilization Detection simulation
>
> I beg you, Kevin, don?t take this away from us
>
> Roger
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 11:33:15 -0400
> From: jbv at souslelogo.com
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027!
> Message-ID: <95268c465ed573c8adb5cc69916a5435 at souslelogo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Le 2024-08-02 11:17, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode a ?crit?:
>> You cannot mean that you want him to go bankrupt
>
> Of course not, but neither me or my clients want to go bankrupt.
> My clients have already paid for the deployment of their apps and they
> are also paying when some cosmetic changes need to be done.
> They don't see why they should also pay for using the apps,
> especially because they work in some niche markets where any
> additional cost is difficult to handle.
>
> Paying licenses for using Photoshop or dropbox is different,
> because one didn't pay anything for the deployment of those apps.
> I hope I am making myself clear despite my poor english.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 11:35:22 -0400
> From: Mike Kerner <MikeKerner at roadrunner.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027!
> Message-ID:
> <CADCoycOJeJYYzPQLBt00vga06d9xnQRw4Nj+0Ka9Nx2CRay2QA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> as i have previously said, the new pricing ($440 per deployed device) is
> untenable for my companies. we won't pay 4d for their REST licenses (for a
> much more complete product), either.
> we are starting to actively search for alternatives.
> if the pricing does not change to something that is actually reasonable,
> we're out.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 16:57:11 +0100
> From: Heather Laine <heather at livecode.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027!
> Message-ID: <166DF444-03E5-4A23-9AE8-8219F0408B5D at livecode.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Or you could explain your problem to us directly, as Kevin has asked a couple of times already on this list and we can see what we can do.
>
> You have an open ticket in support. You have not as yet told me that the new pricing is unaffordable for you.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
>
>
>
>> On 2 Aug 2024, at 16:13, jbv via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> Same here.
>> I have been into hypertalk since the 1st version of HC.
>> I have 2 desktop apps for 2 different clients that I maintain, and in each one
>> the part developed with LC Classic is just a front end for sending requests to
>> the server and displaying the incoming data. In both cases 80% of the tasks is
>> done server side with LC on 2 on-rev accounts.
>> I know for certain that none of my clients will accept to pay for per-seats
>> license.
>> So I have 2 options so far :
>> - paying myself for these licenses, which I can't afford
>> - rewrite the front-end of both apps with html/js and forget about LC.
>> jbv
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 16:58:06 +0100
> From: Heather Laine <heather at livecode.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: By popular demand - Extend access to LC Classic IDEs
> BEYOND 2027!
> Message-ID: <C787C2B2-0F41-4350-B92C-EE7A74F2676F at livecode.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Mike. We asked you to talk to us before the pricing went public. Kevin has reiterated the request that clients with issues get in touch. I once again extend that invitation to you.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
>
>
>
>> On 2 Aug 2024, at 16:35, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> as i have previously said, the new pricing ($440 per deployed device) is
>> untenable for my companies. we won't pay 4d for their REST licenses (for a
>> much more complete product), either.
>> we are starting to actively search for alternatives.
>> if the pricing does not change to something that is actually reasonable,
>> we're out.
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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