ali.lloyd at livecode.com
Wed May 17 22:10:08 CEST 2017
LCB as a language is marginally (if at all) more complex than LiveCode. In
fact many lines of code are indistinguishable between the two.
The difficulty Mark was having is more related to the fact that LCB is not
'live' like LiveCode Script, and that we certainly haven't quite cracked
the documentation or the integration with the IDE yet.
On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 8:34 PM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> Why do I feel that the reason for all this "wierdness" is because LCB
> has been written from C++ programmers from the ground up,
> while LiveCode still (well, just about) hangs onto to its HyperCard
> LiveCode, at its best, preserves the clarity that was the best thing
> about HyperCard (certainly mind-blowingly refreshing
> after my baptism with FORTRAN and PASCAL); LCB, not doing that, is as
> opaque as its heritage.
> It has been suggested before that the LiveCode team have, maybe
> unwittingly, started moving away from the
> HyperCard-like simplicity that was what made LiveCode so obviously the
> best successor to HyperCard; with LCB they
> don't even have to pay lip service to that . . .
> I am extremely grateful to you, Mark, that you were the one who took the
> first critical plunge . . .
> On 5/17/17 10:27 pm, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> > On 05/17/2017 12:09 AM, Ali Lloyd via use-livecode wrote:
> >> Mark, it would be lovely if you could be more specific. What parts of
> >> the
> >> docs in particular could be improved and how? What specific sticking
> >> points
> >> did you have?
> > Oh, where to start? Here are some thoughts off the top of my head:
> > Well, I'd love to have more parity between LCS and LCB as far as
> > keywords and syntax, but I guess that's outside the scope of the
> > documentation per se. But finding that constants like comma and quote
> > aren't defined in LCB was a shock. Indeed, even defining a constant
> > doesn't seem possible. Or at least it's not documented. Searching for
> > "constant" gives nothing, even though "PiConstant" is in the dictionary.
> > I have no idea what the dictionary for ScriptObject is telling me. It
> > has a link to MyScriptObject which has no useful information other
> > than referring me back to ScripObject. The description "Use the
> > resolve script object, or my script object to obtain an object of type
> > ScriptObject" is self-referential at best. The Summary is better "an
> > opaque type..." yep - it's opaque all right.
> > The dictionary entries for LCB commands are arcane CamelCase words
> > seemingly drawn from thin air. CanvasOperationDrawImage, for example,
> > has the syntax of "draw [ from mSrcRect of ] mImage into mDestRect of
> > mCanvas". The syntax statement is understandable, but the entry should
> > be "draw", not "CanvasOperationDrawImage".
> > Similarly, searching for "format" brings up
> > "BooleanFormattedAsString", "FormatBooleanAsString",
> > "FormatNumberAsString", and "NumberFormattedAsString". These refer to
> > either the "format" command or the "formatted as string" modifier. The
> > description field "Use NumberFormattedAsString when you want to
> > manipulate a numeric value as text" doesn't reference the proper
> > syntax for the modifier per the example.
> > And nothing in the "format" commands that came up in the search helped
> > me figure out how to format a hex number as decimal, which is what I
> > was looking for based on LCS expectations. There's no "see also"
> > section which might have pointed me to the "convert" commands. The
> > description of Operand as "An expression that evaluates to a number"
> > isn't specific enough to help... is "FE" a number even though it's a
> > hex number? Is "0xFE" a number"? Does a number have to be an integer
> > (digging into StringPasedAsNumber would indicate no, but why is it
> > necessary to do the digging)? Is 0123.50 a number? What's it's string
> > value? Does it have the leading zero? The trailing zero? Can I control
> > the output format?
> > Once I finally tried searching for convert (mind you, I don't want to
> > *convert* the number, just display it differently) I was faced with a
> > similar situation: "BaseConvert" (the syntax of which is actually
> > "Operand converted from base Source to base Target"),
> > "BaseConvertFrom" (with a syntax of "Operand converted from base
> > Source", "BaseConvertTo" (syntax of "operand converted to base
> > Target", and a reference to the com.livecode.typeconvert library.
> > So looking at BaseConvert, the Operand is specified as "An expression
> > that evaluates to a string." Fair enough - I give it a hex number and
> > I expect a decimal number out the back end. What's the format for a
> > hex number? Is it "0xHH"? Just "HH"? Something else? Can I specify a
> > leading zero? Number of expected decimal digits (what if I need three
> > digits even if one or two are leading zeros?) These are easy in LCS,
> > not so much in LCB.
> > Is it even possible to set the various delimiters? The documentation
> > only talks about retrieving them. The description talks about the
> > calling (script) handler's <type>Delimiter property... is this an
> > actual property of the object or is just a shorthand way of talking
> > about "the <type>Delimiter"?
> > I clicked on "type" in the Filters section. What does that do? All it
> > seems to do is narrow my choices down to ScriptObject (see above).
> > The pointer type isn't documented.
> > Why is the "point" operator documented as "PointMake"? Is this just to
> > differentiate between the "point" creator keyword and the "point"
> > object keyword?
> > Some major strengths of LCS are missing in LCB, or at least don't
> > appear to be in the documentation. Chunks, for instance. It's possible
> > to get character chunks (and the [first|last] modifier in the offset
> > functions are *very* nice), but there's no conception of words. This
> > results in some ugly, convoluted, and error-prone coding to deal with
> > things that are not only easy in LCS, but IMNSHO one of the things
> > that makes LiveCode such a productive environment. I'm hoping this is
> > just a documentation failure and not a missing feature.
> > The StringToJString and StringFromJString examples handler use the
> > "foreign handler" construct, but "foreign" isn't in the dictionary.
> > Nor is the "binds to" syntax. Nor the JObject or JString objects. Nor
> > the "unsafe" keyword.
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