Livecode blows a Raspberry?

[Richard Gaskin]

varvar chemrama wrote:

> Re: Livecode blows a Raspberry? LiveCode does not currently support ARM/Linux
> (as opposed to (de facto) ARM/Android).
>
> OK, I had made the original request in January  to LiveCode Dev for a
> ARM/Linux port, anticipating release of the Raspberry Pi.

If you're in the dev program you may wish to add your votes to this 
request for an ARM Linux engine:
<http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1559>

However:

> I have no idea what RunRev thinks of all of this, but given the recent
> press release where I understand that LiveCode is going to be adopted
> as the programming IDE in schools in a major school district close to
> Cambridge, they should pay attention to Raspberry Pi and Eben Upton's
> stated mission of promoting interest in computing among school age children,
> and port LiveCode to ARM/Linux.

At this time, both models of the Raspberry Pi ship with only 256MB RAM, 
and to keep costs down they use a version of ARM so old that not even 
Ubuntu can run on it.

So while I agree there is some usefulness in an ARM compile of 
LiveCode's Linux engine, it would not be for the Raspberry Pi because 
the system specs won't support the sort of GUI work that makes LC 
uniquely valuable.

For teaching, as much as I enjoy LiveCode I would have to suggest that 
if I were in charge of such decisions for a school district I would 
choose Python or JavaScript as a beginning language, because they're 
both entirely free and so widely used that the skills will be more 
immediately transferable to professional work if the student wishes to 
pursue that.

Of course this isn't to suggest that LC can't be used professionally. 
On the contrary, it's been a key component of my own profession for more 
than a decade.  But in a world in which most popular languages are free 
and open (C, C++, Lua, Ruby, PHP, JavaScript, Python, etc.) it becomes 
difficult to justify LC as a first language in cost-sensitive settings 
like public schools, no matter how valuable it is as a second language.

All of those languages can be used on a Raspberry Pi.

I've been parting out low-cost systems for running LiveCode on x86, and 
so far the cheapest system I can come up with using off-the-shelf parts 
from outlets like NewEgg is about US$160.   While that's many times more 
expensive than the Pi it's also a much more capable system, with 2 GB 
RAM and a 30 GB SSD driven by a Via PV530 (which has a Passmark score 
roughly on par with the Atom 230 I use here in my Lenovo Q110 as a test 
server; not a powerhouse, but quite adequate for such needs).  And with 
the x86 instruction set it can run not only LiveCode but pretty much any 
other x86 program; one can even enjoy the simplicity of installing new 
software from the Ubuntu Software Center, as opposed to the Raspberry Pi 
experience which will likely require some competence with Bash to use 
effectively.

So while Raspberry Pi is a bit of a non-starter for serious GUI 
development such as LiveCode excels at, here you provide an interesting 
alternative:

> If they do not, all is not lost since the
> Android/ARM gadgets are also in freefall as far as prices are concerned.
> When I attended the MIT ARM
> Dev Conference in February, Eben was very candid about how the Foundation's
> objectives vis-a-vis hardware had changed. Originally, they wanted
> everything to be sourced in  the U.K., I believe. But they soon found out
> that this was not going to be cost effective , and after much debate,
> decided to OEM from China. Well, the Raspberry may be the cheapest computer
> in the world, but you need display, keyboard,  etc., and that adds $ to the
> cost.
>
> If you do a diligent Google search, you will find OEMs in China offering
> Android tablets at a cost of between $75 and $90 at the time I am posting
> this--it drops every few days! What is the advantage of an Android tablet?
> Most of them throw in the wireless interface and you do not need a display
> or keyboard. So, you may not get the world's tiniest SBC/COM but you
> certainly get a very low power, high res display all-in-one gadget, somewhat
> more "open" than the Pi [it was my understanding from the MIT presentation
> that certain parts of the Raspberry hardware engine , esp display drivers
> and graphics,  were proprietary.] The Android tablets are all fairly generic
> standard "clones."! Thus, LiveCode will run effortlessly on these low cost
> machines, as I have determined from my tests. (Make sure that the OS is >
> 2.3 though!)

On the developer list Monte Goulding suggested that we end-users 
consider pitching in to develop an IDE suitable for use on Android, in 
the hopes that if such an IDE were available RunRev may see the benefit 
in allow the development version of the engine to be run there.

This is no small feat, however, since the single-window nature of mobile 
UIs will require us to re-think nearly everything about what an IDE 
means, either settling for intensely modal UIs or dynamically copying 
groups of IDE controls into the developer's stack as it's being developed.

Daunting as the prospect is, I still find it attractive and would be 
willing to lend a hand if someone were in a position to take the lead on 
such an effort.


> A final remark, again based on my testing, check out this company (Genesi
> http://www.genesi-usa.com/products http://www.genesi-usa.com/products )
> that makes the EFIKA, A FULL ARM SBC IN A  slim CASE/box  that weighs approx
> 250 g, has a HDMI port, a USB port, Wired AND wireless ethernet, and a SD
> card slot , runs Linux off internal flash RAM but boots Android (build
> supplied by  Genesi) from the SD card. This elegant gadget costs $130 but I
> am sure the company will look at ways to bring prices even lower. I got a
> simple LiveCode app working effortlessly on the EFIKA.

A tempting option, but for a development system its price is close 
enough to what one can assemble with low-cost x86 motherboards like the 
Via Nano and PV530 models that we might just spend the extra $30 and 
take a few minutes to snap together the parts from NewEgg.

With an x86-based system you can use the existing LiveCode IDE right now.

And for just a few dollars more you could build a system using the Atom 
D525 for performance on par with some Core 2 Duo systems, or even better 
use the latest Cedar Trail Atom CPUs like the D2700 built with a 32nm 
process to deliver two cores with hyperthreaded performance with a 
maximum TDP of just 10W.

For a quick comparison of such options, check out these mobos:

Via PV530 CPU, 20W TDP, 100 Mbps Ethernet, US$56.99
<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157209>

Atom D525 CPU, 13W TDP, Gigabit Ethernet, US$74.99
<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442>

Atom D2700 CPU, 10W TDP, Gigabit Ethernet, US$79.99
<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157308>

I've been accumulating some info on low-cost systems like this which 
I'll be sharing with the community in some articles at 
LiveCodeJournal.com soon.   With prices ranging from $160 to $400, 
there's a surprising variety of very useful low-power systems that can 
run the LiveCode IDE, along with LAMP and pretty much anything else 
you'd need in a research server.


> Pardon the grammar and punctuation, and I am sorry if I have violated any
> post etiquette or posted in the wrong forum--I do not post very often.

Not to worry:  your English is far better than that of many Americans. ;)

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
  LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv