[OT] If programming languages were religions...

[Randall Lee Reetz]

Richard,

I just don't think a language is significantly different because it  
has more or less words than it had at one time.  What distinguishes a  
language from other languages is structural, grammatical, syntactic.   
Both spanish and english acquire new lexicon all the time... rarely  
does this new vocabulary require a rewrite of the grammatical rules  
that sit at each language's base.  Nobody looking at Rev's script  
would ever say it wasn't an xtalk language.  Adding a load of new  
words and functions doesn't change this, never will.  None of what I  
am saying is an evaluation of Rev.  The reason both SuperCard and Rev  
can make available hyperCard stack translators is because of this  
structural kinship.  It is a badge of honor.  Every time a new domain  
specific version of C comes out, i role my eyes and groan.  You can't  
make a purse out of a sow's ear.  Garbage in – garbage out.  XTalk  
heritage is a selling point!  Adding functionality on top... well  
that is even better.  It matters what sits under and supports any new  
functionality.

I am certainly not saying that xTalk is the end-all-be-all language.   
The future holds promise (I hope).  What I am saying is that a  
flexible natural language syntax leverages human cognition and  
learned abilities... enabling a short learning curve and the ability  
to concentrate on problem domain instead of tool domain.  Allan Kay  
and Bill Atkinson understood and honored this premise.

I don't need to be sold on the positive attributes of Rev.  The  
problems I have had with SuperCard have nothing to do with the  
product.  I love supercard!  And nothing at all to do with its  
development team (person).  The organization is too small for decent  
product development funding.  And, (from what I have been told) the  
product is owned by a group that does not own access to all of the  
kernel upon which it is built.

Randall


On Dec 22, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
>> As I said, there are important aspects of the Revolution product  
>> that  ARE unique... the use and GUI centered IDE, the multi- 
>> platform  develop and publish flexibility, the viability of the  
>> user community  and this online support group, the stability of  
>> the company and the  rapidity and reliability of the pace of  
>> version development cycle,  the constant evolution of the product  
>> in lockstep with platform  evolution, etc.  But the subject was  
>> the scripting language itself.
>
> While of course Revolution is just one implementation in the xTalk  
> family of languages, its specific dialect at this point is probably  
> 30% or even 40% or more unique, or at least distinct from the  
> Mother Tongue, HyperTalk.
>
> If we exclude all externals (since they were written in other  
> languages) and look only at what's natively in the engine, it might  
> even be the case that Rev has added as many new tokens as were in  
> the entire HyperTalk 2.x language.
>
> All tokens related to arrays, sockets, URLs, new forms of repeat,  
> icons in ask and answer, scrollbars, color, blendlevels, images,  
> groups, gradients, aliases, system color and folder pickers,  
> compression/decompression, binary file I/O, binary operators,  
> Unicode, window modes, mouseMove and other messages, buffer  
> control, video playback, QTVR control, drag-and-drop,  
> executionContexts and other debugging/logging info, script-local  
> vars, animated GIFs, image export formats, screen shots, new date  
> and time formats, backdrops, timers, serial I/O, audio recording,  
> substacks, template objects, labels as distinct from names, and  
> dozens of new properties for even buttons and fields, just to name  
> a few - all unique to Rev.
>
> And then there's a good number of tokens not in HC that Rev has  
> adopted from other xTalks, like SC's frontScripts, backScripts,  
> graphic objects, transfer modes, and the merge function, and OMO's  
> libraryStack message, just to name a few, along with a new altID  
> property to make such ports even easier.
>
> If it appears all Rev brings to the table is multi-platform support  
> and its IDE, that perception will change as one spends more time  
> with the Rev Dictionary.  A LOT has been happening since the engine  
> was born in '92.
>
> I don't even use the Rev IDE nor its externals.  With just the core  
> language in the engine, I simply couldn't go back to HC or even SC  
> if I had to.  While we're all using xTalks, I've adopted a coding  
> style that makes such extensive use of the expanded syntax and  
> object model that I doubt much of what I do would run anywhere else.
>
> Sure, Rev feels familiar to any xTalker.  I guess that's a good  
> sign of how passionate Mark Waddingham is about maintaining the  
> flavor of the language (he was once nearly willing to engage in  
> fisticuffs with me in his defense of the language style <g>; I  
> acquiesced, of course, since he's both younger and stronger than me  
> and more importantly fighting with a greater sense of purpose).   
> But for all its familiarity, Rev is a brave new world among xTalks,  
> one that has earned through the sweat of its many programmers a  
> place of unique honor among the xTalk dialects.
>
> True, Mark Lucas, SuperCard's lead programmer, is perhaps the  
> greatest Mac programmer I've ever been privileged to know  
> personally, and under his stewardship it's no surprise SuperCard  
> has done as well as it has. But while Mr. Lucas may do the work of  
> a ten men, not only does he have a stronger loathing of the Windows  
> API than even myself, but he would also be among the first to note  
> the challenges of doing this sort of work for multiple platforms.   
> Drag and drop, for example, is a complex API on OS X; add in  
> Windows and Linux and the complexity grows geometrically.
>
> For all the inspiration Rev has drawn from its lineage, the Rev  
> engine is quite an achievement in its own right.  Browse through  
> the Dictionary and you'll see what I mean.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World
>  Revolution training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
>  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
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