From livfoss at mac.com  Sat Aug  1 14:04:32 2020
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:04:32 +0100
Subject: iOS Profiles not seen by LC - what to do?
Message-ID: <67BFCEEF-A1EF-44DF-A204-F2ABA3B283EF@mac.com>

I?m coming back to iOS development after quite a long time and I?m using a different Mac to the one I started with. I?m using LC 9.6.0 on MacOS Catalina 10.15.6. When I try to configure my app?s Standalone Settings for iOS, LC sees my internal app ID but it doesn?t see the associated profiles, even though they are present in my KeyChain Access data.

How can I tell LC to ?see? the profiles? Without this I can?t build a standalone at all. I don?t remember this problem occurring on my other Mac - but I don?t have access to that one at the moment.

Thanks for any insight into this.

Graham


From scott at elementarysoftware.com  Sat Aug  1 15:15:48 2020
From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (scott at elementarysoftware.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:15:48 -0700
Subject: iOS Profiles not seen by LC - what to do?
In-Reply-To: <67BFCEEF-A1EF-44DF-A204-F2ABA3B283EF@mac.com>
References: <67BFCEEF-A1EF-44DF-A204-F2ABA3B283EF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6443836F-F800-42CF-A82C-18C5B3E2CCE5@elementarysoftware.com>

Hello Graham,
Have you pointed LiveCode at your copy of Xcode?  (Livecode -> Preferences -> Mobile Support )
?
Scott Morrow

> On Aug 1, 2020, at 11:04 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I?m coming back to iOS development after quite a long time and I?m using a different Mac to the one I started with. I?m using LC 9.6.0 on MacOS Catalina 10.15.6. When I try to configure my app?s Standalone Settings for iOS, LC sees my internal app ID but it doesn?t see the associated profiles, even though they are present in my KeyChain Access data.
> 
> How can I tell LC to ?see? the profiles? Without this I can?t build a standalone at all. I don?t remember this problem occurring on my other Mac - but I don?t have access to that one at the moment.
> 
> Thanks for any insight into this.
> 
> Graham
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From livfoss at mac.com  Sun Aug  2 06:11:20 2020
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 11:11:20 +0100
Subject: iOS Profiles not seen by LC - what to do?
In-Reply-To: <510bb1ef-363d-43e3-bcb4-54df1e5cec63@email.android.com>
References: <510bb1ef-363d-43e3-bcb4-54df1e5cec63@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <95CDAFC9-4089-4296-9DA8-0B67AE67E244@mac.com>

Hi Ralph - thanks, that worked, although I did have to restart LC. I seem to be having some kind of problem with the ID associated with the app (will report later) but I can run the simulator, so can work - phew!

Also, thanks Scott - yes I had already pointed LC to my copy of Xcode - had to be 14.1, where my Mac had loaded a later version of Xcode. Luckily I?m in a location with pretty fast broadband so downloading the right version was not too much of a pain (I have ranted earlier about the ridiculous size of Xcode: wouldn?t it have been better to turn it into a library of components? But you can?t fight Apple?)

Graham

> On 1 Aug 2020, at 19:25, rdimolad at evergreeninfo.net wrote:
> 
> Graham,
> 
> This won't make it to the list. I'm on a forwarded email.
> 
> Go to Xcode preferences and click on your account and click "download manual profiles". You don't even need to close LC. Just click on any other tab in the standalone settings then go back to iOS settings and all you provisioning profiles will show up in the dropdown.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
> On Aug 1, 2020 14:04, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> I?m coming back to iOS development after quite a long time and I?m using a different Mac to the one I started with. I?m using LC 9.6.0 on MacOS Catalina 10.15.6. When I try to configure my app?s Standalone Settings for iOS, LC sees my internal app ID but it doesn?t see the associated profiles, even though they are present in my KeyChain Access data.
> 
> How can I tell LC to ?see? the profiles? Without this I can?t build a standalone at all. I don?t remember this problem occurring on my other Mac - but I don?t have access to that one at the moment.
> 
> Thanks for any insight into this.
> 
> Graham
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 



From livfoss at mac.com  Sun Aug  2 06:24:48 2020
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 11:24:48 +0100
Subject: Lost iOS widget
Message-ID: <B8854B98-CE0F-4A9F-83CF-4CFA452173E3@mac.com>

When re- building my beta-level iOS standalone in LC 9.6.0 (which was working pretty well a few weeks ago), I got a warning:

> Extension com.livecode.widget.native.activity-indicator not found


Was this withdrawn by LC? I can?t see anything in the release notes, but I note that some of my app has stopped working - this seems to be about buttons and not activity indicators, so it needs more investigation, but meanwhile does anyone know what his warning means?

Graham


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Sun Aug  2 06:33:42 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 12:33:42 +0200
Subject: Lost iOS widget
In-Reply-To: <B8854B98-CE0F-4A9F-83CF-4CFA452173E3@mac.com>
References: <B8854B98-CE0F-4A9F-83CF-4CFA452173E3@mac.com>
Message-ID: <FF064BB2-7CA8-4335-B32C-A9E4DD50F60A@m-r-d.de>

Graham,

if i am not completely wrong then that widget is part of the Mobile Native Essentials Widget Pack. This pack was sold as an additonal pack.  Maybe you've purchased that pack and did not install it on your upgraded computer?
You should find a download link for that pack in your Livecode Account at https://livecode.com/account/products/thirdparty



Regards,
Matthias

-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 02.08.2020 um 12:24 schrieb Graham Samuel via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> When re- building my beta-level iOS standalone in LC 9.6.0 (which was working pretty well a few weeks ago), I got a warning:
> 
>> Extension com.livecode.widget.native.activity-indicator not found
> 
> 
> Was this withdrawn by LC? I can?t see anything in the release notes, but I note that some of my app has stopped working - this seems to be about buttons and not activity indicators, so it needs more investigation, but meanwhile does anyone know what his warning means?
> 
> Graham
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From livfoss at mac.com  Sun Aug  2 14:06:47 2020
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 19:06:47 +0100
Subject: Lost iOS widget
In-Reply-To: <FF064BB2-7CA8-4335-B32C-A9E4DD50F60A@m-r-d.de>
References: <B8854B98-CE0F-4A9F-83CF-4CFA452173E3@mac.com>
 <FF064BB2-7CA8-4335-B32C-A9E4DD50F60A@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <3B06136B-3EB3-4DAC-B873-8880E7E98039@mac.com>

You are not wrong at all? that was the answer. One?s purchases of add-ons to LC don?t get directly incorporated in the license or in the download. Obvious really, but I had completely forgotten I?d bought the pack.

Thanks for yet another rescue.

Graham

> On 2 Aug 2020, at 11:33, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Graham,
> 
> if i am not completely wrong then that widget is part of the Mobile Native Essentials Widget Pack. This pack was sold as an additonal pack.  Maybe you've purchased that pack and did not install it on your upgraded computer?
> You should find a download link for that pack in your Livecode Account at https://livecode.com/account/products/thirdparty
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Matthias
> 
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
> 
>> Am 02.08.2020 um 12:24 schrieb Graham Samuel via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> When re- building my beta-level iOS standalone in LC 9.6.0 (which was working pretty well a few weeks ago), I got a warning:
>> 
>>> Extension com.livecode.widget.native.activity-indicator not found
>> 
>> 
>> Was this withdrawn by LC? I can?t see anything in the release notes, but I note that some of my app has stopped working - this seems to be about buttons and not activity indicators, so it needs more investigation, but meanwhile does anyone know what his warning means?
>> 
>> Graham
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Sun Aug  2 23:31:40 2020
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 03:31:40 +0000
Subject: Odd Files in an Android apk
Message-ID: <B729286B-08B8-4FB0-8A7A-593304CB6B22@clearvisiontech.com>

Using LC version 9.6.1 (rc1), I built by Android app.   The app seemed a bit on the large side.  So, upon examining the files in the apk, I found this:

------------------------------------
Volume in drive D has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is 7C03-D597

 Directory of D:\apktest\assets\tsNet.lcextd\iOS

08/02/2020  09:22 PM    <DIR>          .
08/02/2020  09:22 PM    <DIR>          ..
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         6,751,828 External-Device-10_2
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         6,751,828 External-Device-11_2
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         6,666,588 External-Device-12_1
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         6,666,588 External-Device-13_2
07/28/2020  02:46 AM         6,666,588 External-Device-13_5
07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,769,472 External-Simulator-10_2
07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,769,472 External-Simulator-11_2
07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,533,360 External-Simulator-12_1
07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,533,360 External-Simulator-13_2
07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,533,360 External-Simulator-13_5
              11 File(s)     56,642,444 bytes
               2 Dir(s)  101,128,318,976 bytes free
------------------------------------

Why would there be an iOS folder in the tsNet directory of an Android apk?

Also, I did not select the "Android x86" checkbox in the Application Setting, but the external for tsNet External-x86 was still included in the apk:

------------------------------------
Volume in drive D has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is 7C03-D597

 Directory of D:\apktest\assets\tsNet.lcextd\Android

08/02/2020  09:29 PM    <DIR>          .
08/02/2020  09:29 PM    <DIR>          ..
07/28/2020  02:45 AM             5,145 Classes
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         2,867,456 External-arm64-v8a
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         2,223,820 External-armeabi
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         1,904,364 External-armeabi-v7a
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         2,653,944 External-x86
07/28/2020  02:45 AM         2,941,840 External-x86_64
               7 File(s)     12,596,569 bytes
               2 Dir(s)  101,128,314,880 bytes free
------------------------------------

Perhaps this is a Bug or are all these files somehow required?   Any thoughts?

-Dan


From merakosp at gmail.com  Mon Aug  3 00:51:13 2020
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:51:13 +0300
Subject: Odd Files in an Android apk
In-Reply-To: <B729286B-08B8-4FB0-8A7A-593304CB6B22@clearvisiontech.com>
References: <B729286B-08B8-4FB0-8A7A-593304CB6B22@clearvisiontech.com>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq8PfrCOkR_Ndzm12vqQGT42J_gh_dUqY4Mzznk2aLN4sw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Dan,

This bug was fixed for 9.6.0, but (accidentally) it did not make it into
9.6.1 rc-1.

It will be fixed in 9.6.1 RC-2.

You can apply the fix locally, until RC-2 is released:

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7413/files

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 at 06:32, Dan Friedman via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Using LC version 9.6.1 (rc1), I built by Android app.   The app seemed a
> bit on the large side.  So, upon examining the files in the apk, I found
> this:
>
> ------------------------------------
> Volume in drive D has no label.
>  Volume Serial Number is 7C03-D597
>
>  Directory of D:\apktest\assets\tsNet.lcextd\iOS
>
> 08/02/2020  09:22 PM    <DIR>          .
> 08/02/2020  09:22 PM    <DIR>          ..
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         6,751,828 External-Device-10_2
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         6,751,828 External-Device-11_2
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         6,666,588 External-Device-12_1
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         6,666,588 External-Device-13_2
> 07/28/2020  02:46 AM         6,666,588 External-Device-13_5
> 07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,769,472 External-Simulator-10_2
> 07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,769,472 External-Simulator-11_2
> 07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,533,360 External-Simulator-12_1
> 07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,533,360 External-Simulator-13_2
> 07/29/2020  05:17 AM         4,533,360 External-Simulator-13_5
>               11 File(s)     56,642,444 bytes
>                2 Dir(s)  101,128,318,976 bytes free
> ------------------------------------
>
> Why would there be an iOS folder in the tsNet directory of an Android apk?
>
> Also, I did not select the "Android x86" checkbox in the Application
> Setting, but the external for tsNet External-x86 was still included in the
> apk:
>
> ------------------------------------
> Volume in drive D has no label.
>  Volume Serial Number is 7C03-D597
>
>  Directory of D:\apktest\assets\tsNet.lcextd\Android
>
> 08/02/2020  09:29 PM    <DIR>          .
> 08/02/2020  09:29 PM    <DIR>          ..
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM             5,145 Classes
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         2,867,456 External-arm64-v8a
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         2,223,820 External-armeabi
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         1,904,364 External-armeabi-v7a
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         2,653,944 External-x86
> 07/28/2020  02:45 AM         2,941,840 External-x86_64
>                7 File(s)     12,596,569 bytes
>                2 Dir(s)  101,128,314,880 bytes free
> ------------------------------------
>
> Perhaps this is a Bug or are all these files somehow required?   Any
> thoughts?
>
> -Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Mon Aug  3 14:17:28 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:17:28 -0400
Subject: Google API Oauth - refresh tokens?
In-Reply-To: <ffc0e3dd-c8bb-cf16-22a6-d42579c02f3f@cogapp.com>
References: <ffc0e3dd-c8bb-cf16-22a6-d42579c02f3f@cogapp.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycOutVQONFc1S_BNq0BtreZ5Fp9nOH4XLjhC7xB_OaviTg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm pretty sure that refresh tokens are used with service accounts (the
account has its own authorization so that it can do things, but it does not
have its own storage or documents).  Authentication is more involved,
including, for instance, generating a JWT which has to be built and sent to
Google during the authorization process to obtain the access token, and
then hourly to obtain the refresh token.  I never got the JWT signed
properly, and I haven't played with it since we got this process working in
another tool that we use.
I'd be interested in seeing your code when you're done.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:09 PM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Back in 2018 when I was originally working with Google sheets, the OAuth
> authorisation once granted seemed to refresh automatically.
>
> That is, if a call returned the 'unauthorised' error, calling OAuth with
> the
> same parameters would briefly display a sheet dialog, but it would go away
> automatically.
>
> Then I finished working on that project, and when six months I briefly
> looked
> at this again, fell victim to bug #22557.
>
> Now that this is fixed, I'm happily working with the system again (and
> will
> shortly release my code in case it's of use to anyone) - but now when the
> authorisation expires (which is does after an hour or so), calling Oauth2
> goes
> through the process requiring user activity.
>
> There's an OAuth2Refresh command in LiveCode; but the issue is that I
> don't
> get a refresh token from the Google API. From my reading of the docs, only
> certain kinds of app registered with Google get refresh tokens - but I
> don't
> seem to be able to figure this out.
>
> Has anyone managed to register an app with Google (in
> https://console.developers.google.com/apis/) in a way that means it gets
> refresh tokens?
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Aug  3 17:33:44 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:33:44 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
Message-ID: <cbd69481-f75c-7be4-cdf1-35991b54ffbb@sonic.net>

...catching up on some reading here. One of my email providers 
(ahsoftware at protonmail.com) has gone public with some of the 
heavy-handed tactics Apple uses on developers. For example:

"Apple has now even gone so far as to ban apps from the App Store if 
they refuse to offer in-app purchases for paid features that are 
available for purchase elsewhere. In other words, Apple wants a nearly 
one-third cut of your sales, regardless of whether you want to sell on 
their platform or not. This was precisely what happened with Proton."

https://protonmail.com/blog/apple-app-store-antitrust

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From panos.merakos at livecode.com  Tue Aug  4 04:24:34 2020
From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:24:34 +0300
Subject: [ANN] Release 9.6.1 RC-2
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq_6bddh_62KGR6wth_DfjgjKSg9YkQn=9jCBUnsxjHscA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.1 RC-2.


Getting the Release
===================
You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
the automatic updater.


Release Contents
================
LiveCode 9.6.1 RC-2 comes with 3 regression fixes:

- Inneractive Ads SDK is no longer included in Android commercial builds.
- Android Barcode Scanner preview rect now matches the widget rect
- tsNet iOS binaries are not included in Android builds

For the full list of all fixes, updates and enhancements please see the
release notes:
http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_6_1/LiveCodeNotes-9_6_1_rc_2.pdf


Known issues
============
- The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with
Cinnamon window manager.
- The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS
yet.
- The mergSettings external still uses the UIWebView API on iOS, so
checking "mergSettings" in the Inclusions pane will cause an AppStore
rejection, since Apple no longer accepts new apps that use UIWebView.


Required Software
=================
To build iOS apps with LiveCode you must have the appropriate versions of
Xcode as follows:

  - macOS 10.13.4: Xcode 10.1 - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS 12.1
SDK
  - macOS 10.14.4: Xcode 11.3.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS
13.2 SDK
  - macOS 10.15.2: Xcode 11.5.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS
13.5 SDK

There is a full list of working LiveCode/macOS/Xcode combinations here:
https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/

Note: Whilst we endeavour to release updated versions of LiveCode
supporting the latest Xcode/iOS SDKs as quickly as possible; we strongly
recommend disabling automatic update of Xcode or downloading the specific
version of Xcode required directly from the Apple developer portal and
installing it separately.

Important: Since the end of June 2020, Apple is only accepting apps built
using iOS13 SDKs. This means that, if you wish to submit apps to the
AppStore, you will have to be running at least macOS 10.14 in order to be
able to install the necessary version of Xcode.


Feedback
========
Please report any bugs encountered on our quality center at
http://quality.livecode.com/

We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at
http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93


Have fun!
The LiveCode Team


From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 05:38:52 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:38:52 +0200
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <cbd69481-f75c-7be4-cdf1-35991b54ffbb@sonic.net>
References: <cbd69481-f75c-7be4-cdf1-35991b54ffbb@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <989c1306-02f4-6965-5bdb-a863897e3b5f@gmail.com>

1 solution :Ban apple and their appstore. Your users use Apple, aah, to 
bad for them.

First they bought overprized hardware...and the rest you know


Op 3-8-2020 om 23:33 schreef Mark Wieder via use-livecode:
> ...catching up on some reading here. One of my email providers 
> (ahsoftware at protonmail.com) has gone public with some of the 
> heavy-handed tactics Apple uses on developers. For example:
>
> "Apple has now even gone so far as to ban apps from the App Store if 
> they refuse to offer in-app purchases for paid features that are 
> available for purchase elsewhere. In other words, Apple wants a nearly 
> one-third cut of your sales, regardless of whether you want to sell on 
> their platform or not. This was precisely what happened with Proton."
>
> https://protonmail.com/blog/apple-app-store-antitrust
>



From livfoss at mac.com  Tue Aug  4 07:12:28 2020
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:12:28 +0100
Subject: Apple Transporter for iOS uploads?
In-Reply-To: <DA44397D-EB4B-41A4-9CD0-9A0B1A50548F@mac.com>
References: <DA44397D-EB4B-41A4-9CD0-9A0B1A50548F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <B3D19DC2-3973-4C0C-B0DC-2455A771B441@mac.com>

A month ago I was asking the question below. Circumstances stopped my development work until very recently, then I picked this up again. Just in case anyone meets the same issue I can confirm there was an answer, given by Apple Support. They said:

> I have investigated the issue and I can see that you have not agreed to the latest version of the Program License Agreement. 

Yes, that was it! Not at all mentioned in the app itself, but not having agreed (to something I hadn?t noticed in my IN box) stopped the program working. You would have thought an error message might have come up, but no.


Graham

> On 1 Jul 2020, at 21:15, Graham Samuel <livfoss at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Anyone having any trouble with  this app? I downloaded it and signed in with my Apple ID, but then it got stuck displaying ?signing in? with a rotatiing progress indicator. The ?Force Quit? system doesn?t report it as ?not responding?, but it doesn?t seem to be responding to me!
> 
> iMac running Catalina 10.15.5.
> 
> Graham



From livfoss at mac.com  Tue Aug  4 07:22:32 2020
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:22:32 +0100
Subject: Has anyone created a specialised mobile keyboard?
Message-ID: <B533E7CF-5187-4456-8445-B2DF925BF495@mac.com>

In the iOS app I?m developing, it would be nice (I mean less confusing for the user) to display a keyboard with only certain keys - numerals and certain other letters and symbols, on the lines of the various native keyboards available (numeric, email etc). I see that I can create one from scratch using graphics and buttons, but I wondered if there is a more native-style trick to this. I know so little about iOS APIs - I thought perhaps someone with more knowledge might have tried it.

Graham


From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 09:40:17 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 15:40:17 +0200
Subject: Has anyone created a specialised mobile keyboard?
In-Reply-To: <B533E7CF-5187-4456-8445-B2DF925BF495@mac.com>
References: <B533E7CF-5187-4456-8445-B2DF925BF495@mac.com>
Message-ID: <646c2c3a-a9ce-389e-7650-834aade40631@gmail.com>

You can set which keyboard you want, like email, numeric

it's in the dictionary, search on mobile keyboard


Op 4-8-2020 om 13:22 schreef Graham Samuel via use-livecode:
> In the iOS app I?m developing, it would be nice (I mean less confusing for the user) to display a keyboard with only certain keys - numerals and certain other letters and symbols, on the lines of the various native keyboards available (numeric, email etc). I see that I can create one from scratch using graphics and buttons, but I wondered if there is a more native-style trick to this. I know so little about iOS APIs - I thought perhaps someone with more knowledge might have tried it.
>
> Graham
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jiml at netrin.com  Tue Aug  4 14:19:11 2020
From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:19:11 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1596556801.144758.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.3.1596556801.144758.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <5DB1BDE8-9E35-4CF8-BCD2-472D7FC15521@netrin.com>

That article is an interesting read.

Still these two sentences:

Apple is using its monopoly to hold all of us hostage
Apple?s iOS controls 25% of the global smartphone market (the other 75%, is largely controlled by Google?s Android).

are self contradictory. By definition a company with 25% of the market is not a monopoly.

Jim Lambert

From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 14:31:20 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 20:31:20 +0200
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <5DB1BDE8-9E35-4CF8-BCD2-472D7FC15521@netrin.com>
References: <mailman.3.1596556801.144758.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <5DB1BDE8-9E35-4CF8-BCD2-472D7FC15521@netrin.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqiJnm_+U+-EeanC_b2wm5qHfqqbToR=rr6E2aFrDB7D9vZsw@mail.gmail.com>

It's not a contradictory, Apple has Worldwide Monopoly of iOs and the Apple
store.
I don't know any other store for Apple iOs software. (are there?)
As for Android there are multiple stores (yes Google hold the monopoly of
the OS itself)

Op di 4 aug. 2020 om 20:20 schreef Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:

> That article is an interesting read.
>
> Still these two sentences:
>
> Apple is using its monopoly to hold all of us hostage
> Apple?s iOS controls 25% of the global smartphone market (the other 75%,
> is largely controlled by Google?s Android).
>
> are self contradictory. By definition a company with 25% of the market is
> not a monopoly.
>
> Jim Lambert
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From dev at porta.ca  Tue Aug  4 14:39:31 2020
From: dev at porta.ca (Dev)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:39:31 -0600
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <5DB1BDE8-9E35-4CF8-BCD2-472D7FC15521@netrin.com>
References: <mailman.3.1596556801.144758.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <5DB1BDE8-9E35-4CF8-BCD2-472D7FC15521@netrin.com>
Message-ID: <663A9090-C333-47D3-AEE1-3979AD6F9AF9@porta.ca>

It may feel like a monopoly because Apple takes 80% of the profits in the overall field of mobile apps. Generally, Android users don?t pay for apps, iOS users will. So a choice to NOT develop for iOS has some severe economic consequences that a developer has to think about.

There are many complaints about the Apple process when dealing with the App Store. I am not a fanboy although I do use Apple products of all kinds, but I think that the changes being made are actually done from a protectionist perspective in an increasingly hostile digital world. You may complain about the walled garden and the ?Mummy knows best? perspective that Apple projects, but you are the elite of the computing world because you are developers and programmers. For the Moms & Pops & Grandparents out there that have no idea how this magical device connects them with their grandkids, the safety net is essential and required. It might be nice to have a ?Dev mode? on the phone where you can mess about - but like backdoors in encryption - can it be done safely with out the bad guys doing exactly the same to Granny?s phone?

Yes, I?m frustrated by the moving target aspects of developing - especially with LiveCode where we always seem to be a version or two behind and playing catch up. But on the other hand I feel a whole lot better pointing my parents at the Apple App Store and knowing that they will be relatively safe with anything in there and that their hardware is also as safe as possible as well. If I want to run Linux and do whatever I want with my hardware, that is my choice. But I am part of the 1% in wanting to do this, and I can make my own choices. I DO NOT want my parents (or grandchildren) to be doing that though. 

Like the TV shows and websites say - Don?t try this at home- leave it to the professionals.


> On 4Aug, 2020, at 12:19 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> That article is an interesting read.
> 
> Still these two sentences:
> 
> Apple is using its monopoly to hold all of us hostage
> Apple?s iOS controls 25% of the global smartphone market (the other 75%, is largely controlled by Google?s Android).
> 
> are self contradictory. By definition a company with 25% of the market is not a monopoly.
> 
> Jim Lambert
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Tue Aug  4 15:37:46 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:37:46 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <663A9090-C333-47D3-AEE1-3979AD6F9AF9@porta.ca>
References: <mailman.3.1596556801.144758.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <5DB1BDE8-9E35-4CF8-BCD2-472D7FC15521@netrin.com>
 <663A9090-C333-47D3-AEE1-3979AD6F9AF9@porta.ca>
Message-ID: <8d4a42ce-2427-69ce-7190-7e658926ba2d@sonic.net>

On 8/4/20 11:39 AM, Dev via use-livecode wrote:

 > I think that the changes being made are actually done from a 
protectionist perspective in an increasingly hostile digital world.

The point here, though, is that Apple is now demanding that anything 
sold through mobile ads requires a 30% tribute, whether it's sold online 
or elsewhere in the real world. This is a different thing from the 
security arguments and gets us back to where you can owe your soul to 
the Company Store.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 16:29:44 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:29:44 +0200
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <8d4a42ce-2427-69ce-7190-7e658926ba2d@sonic.net>
References: <mailman.3.1596556801.144758.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <5DB1BDE8-9E35-4CF8-BCD2-472D7FC15521@netrin.com>
 <663A9090-C333-47D3-AEE1-3979AD6F9AF9@porta.ca>
 <8d4a42ce-2427-69ce-7190-7e658926ba2d@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>

1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now also is
removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile app...

Op di 4 aug. 2020 21:38 schreef Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:

> On 8/4/20 11:39 AM, Dev via use-livecode wrote:
>
>  > I think that the changes being made are actually done from a
> protectionist perspective in an increasingly hostile digital world.
>
> The point here, though, is that Apple is now demanding that anything
> sold through mobile ads requires a 30% tribute, whether it's sold online
> or elsewhere in the real world. This is a different thing from the
> security arguments and gets us back to where you can owe your soul to
> the Company Store.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Tue Aug  4 16:34:36 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:34:36 -0400
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <8d4a42ce-2427-69ce-7190-7e658926ba2d@sonic.net>
References: <mailman.3.1596556801.144758.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <5DB1BDE8-9E35-4CF8-BCD2-472D7FC15521@netrin.com>
 <663A9090-C333-47D3-AEE1-3979AD6F9AF9@porta.ca>
 <8d4a42ce-2427-69ce-7190-7e658926ba2d@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <009601d66a9e$ae772830$0b657890$@net>

Or a trailer for sale or rent. Also... you slowly give up your rights and
individuality with every bit of "cradle to grave" security you embrace, be
it in big tech or government.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2020 3:38 PM
To: Dev via use-livecode
Cc: Mark Wieder
Subject: Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

On 8/4/20 11:39 AM, Dev via use-livecode wrote:

 > I think that the changes being made are actually done from a
protectionist perspective in an increasingly hostile digital world.

The point here, though, is that Apple is now demanding that anything sold
through mobile ads requires a 30% tribute, whether it's sold online or
elsewhere in the real world. This is a different thing from the security
arguments and gets us back to where you can owe your soul to the Company
Store.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From livfoss at mac.com  Tue Aug  4 16:57:21 2020
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 21:57:21 +0100
Subject: Has anyone created a specialised mobile keyboard?
In-Reply-To: <646c2c3a-a9ce-389e-7650-834aade40631@gmail.com>
References: <646c2c3a-a9ce-389e-7650-834aade40631@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>

What I want to do is to design my own keyboard with numerals and a few additional special symbols, but I don?t know if it?s possible to do in native mode, as it were.

Graham

Sent from my iPhone

> On 4 Aug 2020, at 14:41, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?You can set which keyboard you want, like email, numeric
> 
> it's in the dictionary, search on mobile keyboard
> 
> 
> Op 4-8-2020 om 13:22 schreef Graham Samuel via use-livecode:
>> In the iOS app I?m developing, it would be nice (I mean less confusing for the user) to display a keyboard with only certain keys - numerals and certain other letters and symbols, on the lines of the various native keyboards available (numeric, email etc). I see that I can create one from scratch using graphics and buttons, but I wondered if there is a more native-style trick to this. I know so little about iOS APIs - I thought perhaps someone with more knowledge might have tried it.
>> 
>> Graham
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Tue Aug  4 18:42:59 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:42:59 -0500
Subject: Odd Files in an Android apk
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq8PfrCOkR_Ndzm12vqQGT42J_gh_dUqY4Mzznk2aLN4sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B729286B-08B8-4FB0-8A7A-593304CB6B22@clearvisiontech.com>
 <CA+JfEq8PfrCOkR_Ndzm12vqQGT42J_gh_dUqY4Mzznk2aLN4sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ff424a46-66cc-5a16-65a4-7b8138cfb10b@hyperactivesw.com>

Wow. I just built an update to an Android app with LC 9.6.1rc2 and the size went from 47MB to 21MB.

Nice.

On 8/2/20 11:51 PM, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:
> Hello Dan,
> 
> This bug was fixed for 9.6.0, but (accidentally) it did not make it into
> 9.6.1 rc-1.
> 
> It will be fixed in 9.6.1 RC-2.
> 
> You can apply the fix locally, until RC-2 is released:
> 
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7413/files
> 
> Kind regards,
> Panos


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Tue Aug  4 18:54:30 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:54:30 -0500
Subject: Has anyone created a specialised mobile keyboard?
In-Reply-To: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
References: <646c2c3a-a9ce-389e-7650-834aade40631@gmail.com>
 <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
Message-ID: <a4e552b7-df28-7db4-eddb-b92d06bee1e0@hyperactivesw.com>

On 8/4/20 3:57 PM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode wrote:
> What I want to do is to design my own keyboard with numerals and a few additional special symbols, but I don?t know if it?s possible to do in native mode, as it were.

You have to write keyboards in Swift or Kotlin or whatever language the OS accepts. If you want 
to use only LC you'll have to do it with a LC group or something similar; LC can't produce 
OS-native keyboards.

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com




From scott at elementarysoftware.com  Tue Aug  4 18:55:13 2020
From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (scott at elementarysoftware.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 15:55:13 -0700
Subject: Odd Files in an Android apk
In-Reply-To: <ff424a46-66cc-5a16-65a4-7b8138cfb10b@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <B729286B-08B8-4FB0-8A7A-593304CB6B22@clearvisiontech.com>
 <CA+JfEq8PfrCOkR_Ndzm12vqQGT42J_gh_dUqY4Mzznk2aLN4sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff424a46-66cc-5a16-65a4-7b8138cfb10b@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <3861A730-772C-4382-B37E-943C97EFC504@elementarysoftware.com>

Hmm? I saw a reduction of a few MB (which was nice!) but nothing like what you got.
?
Scott Morrow

> On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:42 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Wow. I just built an update to an Android app with LC 9.6.1rc2 and the size went from 47MB to 21MB.
> 
> Nice.
> 
> On 8/2/20 11:51 PM, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hello Dan,
>> This bug was fixed for 9.6.0, but (accidentally) it did not make it into
>> 9.6.1 rc-1.
>> It will be fixed in 9.6.1 RC-2.
>> You can apply the fix locally, until RC-2 is released:
>> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7413/files
>> Kind regards,
>> Panos
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From harrison at all-auctions.com  Tue Aug  4 20:09:01 2020
From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 20:09:01 -0400
Subject: Has anyone created a specialised mobile keyboard?
In-Reply-To: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
References: <646c2c3a-a9ce-389e-7650-834aade40631@gmail.com>
 <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BEA169F1-CA74-4866-902D-5FEEF88C8A02@all-auctions.com>

Hi Graham,

I suspect that you will have to roll your own keyboard.
You could take little screenshots of the native keys
that you want, and then move them to where you want
them to appear in your keyboard.  Then just detect
when someone has hit each of the keys and record
the order.  Easy?

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Rick

> On Aug 4, 2020, at 4:57 PM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> What I want to do is to design my own keyboard with numerals and a few additional special symbols, but I don?t know if it?s possible to do in native mode, as it were.
> 
> Graham
> 




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Aug  4 20:09:00 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:09:00 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>

JeeJeeStudio wrote:

 > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now also is
 > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile app...

"Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.

It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.

It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST APIs in 
addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much development 
time for one vendor.

It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing through 
freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to bring a 
positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.

It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's ads 
into your app design without impairing the user experience.

Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Aug  4 20:27:42 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:27:42 -0700
Subject: Has anyone created a specialised mobile keyboard?
In-Reply-To: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
References: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
Message-ID: <a5344ecb-6b30-e308-d66b-e13ef08551b2@fourthworld.com>

I would encourage you to consider very carefully the standard keyboard 
layouts provided by the OS before embarking on a custom one.

It's not only a lot of work to make a keyboard, but the common ones are 
very good, with Swype-like behavior, word prediction, and other things 
that can be cost-prohibitive for a solo dev to implement.

Users are *very* accustomed to standard input controls. Deviating from 
those may be useful in unusual designs, but given the high value of 
consistency for common tasks like text entry you'll want to weigh the 
pros and cons carefully before deciding your use-case is too far outside 
of those supported by the OS.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems


Graham Samuel wrote:
 > What I want to do is to design my own keyboard with numerals and a
 > few additional special symbols, but I don?t know if it?s possible
 > to do in native mode, as it were.
 >
 > Graham
 >
 > Sent from my iPhone
 >
 >> On 4 Aug 2020, at 14:41, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <use-livecode 
at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 >>
 >> ?You can set which keyboard you want, like email, numeric
 >>
 >> it's in the dictionary, search on mobile keyboard
 >>





From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Tue Aug  4 21:14:46 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 20:14:46 -0500
Subject: Odd Files in an Android apk
In-Reply-To: <3861A730-772C-4382-B37E-943C97EFC504@elementarysoftware.com>
References: <B729286B-08B8-4FB0-8A7A-593304CB6B22@clearvisiontech.com>
 <CA+JfEq8PfrCOkR_Ndzm12vqQGT42J_gh_dUqY4Mzznk2aLN4sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff424a46-66cc-5a16-65a4-7b8138cfb10b@hyperactivesw.com>
 <3861A730-772C-4382-B37E-943C97EFC504@elementarysoftware.com>
Message-ID: <173bc2f5770.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

Maybe because I built a single app containing both 32 and 64 bit 
architectures. Maybe I got double points.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On August 4, 2020 5:57:10 PM scott--- via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hmm? I saw a reduction of a few MB (which was nice!) but nothing like what 
> you got.
> ?
> Scott Morrow
>
>> On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:42 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Wow. I just built an update to an Android app with LC 9.6.1rc2 and the size 
>> went from 47MB to 21MB.
>>
>> Nice.
>>
>> On 8/2/20 11:51 PM, panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Hello Dan,
>>> This bug was fixed for 9.6.0, but (accidentally) it did not make it into
>>> 9.6.1 rc-1.
>>> It will be fixed in 9.6.1 RC-2.
>>> You can apply the fix locally, until RC-2 is released:
>>> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7413/files
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Panos
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From mkoob at rogers.com  Wed Aug  5 09:14:55 2020
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:14:55 -0400
Subject: Integrating Desktop or mobile application with LMS using LTI 1.3 
In-Reply-To: <08583279-fde2-4d1d-b6d8-ba434193b22c@Spark>
References: <5013068A-C3D7-449D-87B8-19B626F20ECA.ref@rogers.com>
 <5013068A-C3D7-449D-87B8-19B626F20ECA@rogers.com>
 <A9B6B54F-E3CF-4E7F-BFBA-DEE050199382@me.com>
 <9129BC2A-3814-4205-ADCD-CE9732B90E43@gmail.com>
 <08583279-fde2-4d1d-b6d8-ba434193b22c@Spark>
Message-ID: <5D31332A-FB41-4D69-94BE-7A85A5CA0E46@rogers.com>

Hi all.

Thanks for the responses.  I am still actively working on this.  

I have hired a summer intern. Molly,  to work on this.  She has been getting up to speed on LiveCode and LTI 1.3 and now she is turning her attention to working on a proof of concept stack to connect with an LMS system and send commands and receive responses and process them.  

Indeed we have found that LTI 1.3 is supported by many LMS?s to varying degrees and some still just support LTI 1.1 currently. (There is a LTI 2.0 but that is a deprecated standard. http://www.imsglobal.org/lti-security-announcement-and-deprecation-schedule)  The LMSs we have looked at also have their own APIs which seem to have features beyond what the LTI feature set is but still looking at this. 

I am not at the point yet where I can open source it and I am not really sure how to go about that. (Don?t know how I would sell it either but probably not much of a market for it.)  I have my main app on GIT using Monte?s lcVCS but if I did want to go open source with this library I want to to do something simpler like a script only stack library and maybe do a Demo app based on Trevor?s Levure App Framework https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform/levure/ to make it easier to use git.   Does this sound like a good approach?

We are also looking for a way to access a sandbox with one of the LMS?s to test the proof of concept app against.  If anyone has info on that that would be appreciated.

Martin


> On May 27, 2020, at 5:25 AM, H?kan Liljegren via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't think LTI is dead at all, most mayor LMSs support LTI today in one way on another. I'm also looking into this as we are using the Canvas LMS at our university (where I have my day-work) so I'm definitely interested in some participation in a LiveCode LTI library. I've just started my work so no code yet though...
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> H?kan
> On 27 May 2020, 01:34 +0200, William Prothero via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> Martin and Peter:
>> I am retired, but still creating one (big) educational application. I thought the LMS integration idea had died a death by silence, so I am so glad you are looking into this. I?m very interested, but have not put forth any effort in this direction.
>> 
>> Please keep me informed about what you find.
>> Best,
>> Bill
>> 
>> William A. Prothero
>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>> 
>>> On May 25, 2020, at 3:28 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Martin,
>>> 
>>> I?ve just begun looking into this myself, so I?m also interested in what anybody knows about this.
>>> 
>>> Peter Bogdanoff
>>> ArtsInteractive
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 25, 2020, at 3:05 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi list
>>>> 
>>>> I have been researching how to integrate a desktop application created with LiveCode with a learning Management system (LMS) like Brightspace by D2L, Moodle, Canvas etc. Last time I looked at this SCORM was the standard with TinCan( aka xAPI) as a potential successor. This time around I found those seem to have been superseded by LTI 1.1 going to LTI 1.3.
>>>> 
>>>> In the documents I have found I see that one of the advantages of LTI 1.3 is that it can be used with desktop and mobile apps. LTI 1.1 only worked with web based applications.
>>>> 
>>>> " Mobile Ready?The model is independent of web browsers, a better solution for server-to-server, native desktop and mobile applications.?
>>>> https://www.imsglobal.org/why-platforms-and-tools-should-adopt-lti-13 <https://www.imsglobal.org/why-platforms-and-tools-should-adopt-lti-13>
>>>> 
>>>> I am looking for examples of people doing this but have not found any online.(I don?t want to spend time on idly ddl I looks like it would be possible to use it in an LiveCode application. It uses oAuth 2 for authentication and JSON for messages both of which are available on the the latest version of LiveCode.
>>>> 
>>>> First I just want to confirm it has been done for a desktop application in general so I know that is a viable approach for integrating an App into an LMS.
>>>> 
>>>> Second I wonder if people have done it using LiveCode.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Martin Koob
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From livfoss at mac.com  Wed Aug  5 11:18:58 2020
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:18:58 +0100
Subject: Has anyone created a specialised mobile keyboard?
In-Reply-To: <a5344ecb-6b30-e308-d66b-e13ef08551b2@fourthworld.com>
References: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
 <a5344ecb-6b30-e308-d66b-e13ef08551b2@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <70AA84F8-63ED-460F-89AF-039D4D3F83D9@mac.com>

Thanks to all who replied: Jacque has rightly put me off trying to write a true native keyboard. I can (as I said at the beginning) roll my own, but I also see Richard?s point about the familiarity and sophistication of the native keyboards. I think on reflection I?ll just go for the numeric one and make up any deficiency of symbols either by simply telling my user to use certain characters as substitutes for the real thing, or by providing extra buttons for the extra symbols. I will experiment.

Graham

> On 5 Aug 2020, at 01:27, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I would encourage you to consider very carefully the standard keyboard layouts provided by the OS before embarking on a custom one.
> 
> It's not only a lot of work to make a keyboard, but the common ones are very good, with Swype-like behavior, word prediction, and other things that can be cost-prohibitive for a solo dev to implement.
> 
> Users are *very* accustomed to standard input controls. Deviating from those may be useful in unusual designs, but given the high value of consistency for common tasks like text entry you'll want to weigh the pros and cons carefully before deciding your use-case is too far outside of those supported by the OS.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> 
> 
> Graham Samuel wrote:
> > What I want to do is to design my own keyboard with numerals and a
> > few additional special symbols, but I don?t know if it?s possible
> > to do in native mode, as it were.
> >
> > Graham
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On 4 Aug 2020, at 14:41, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ?You can set which keyboard you want, like email, numeric
> >>
> >> it's in the dictionary, search on mobile keyboard
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From waprothero at gmail.com  Wed Aug  5 11:20:41 2020
From: waprothero at gmail.com (William Prothero)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 08:20:41 -0700
Subject: Integrating Desktop or mobile application with LMS using LTI 1.3
In-Reply-To: <5D31332A-FB41-4D69-94BE-7A85A5CA0E46@rogers.com>
References: <5D31332A-FB41-4D69-94BE-7A85A5CA0E46@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <80620544-E78E-4B20-8FB8-BDF8B849C5A6@gmail.com>

Martin,
I?m very glad you are tackling this issue. It was discussed a couple of years ago, but nothing seemed to come of it. It?s even more relevent now with so much distance learning.

I?m very interested in what you come up with.

Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://earthlearningsolutions.org

> On Aug 5, 2020, at 6:16 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Hi all.
> 
> Thanks for the responses.  I am still actively working on this.  
> 
> I have hired a summer intern. Molly,  to work on this.  She has been getting up to speed on LiveCode and LTI 1.3 and now she is turning her attention to working on a proof of concept stack to connect with an LMS system and send commands and receive responses and process them.  
> 
> Indeed we have found that LTI 1.3 is supported by many LMS?s to varying degrees and some still just support LTI 1.1 currently. (There is a LTI 2.0 but that is a deprecated standard. http://www.imsglobal.org/lti-security-announcement-and-deprecation-schedule)  The LMSs we have looked at also have their own APIs which seem to have features beyond what the LTI feature set is but still looking at this. 
> 
> I am not at the point yet where I can open source it and I am not really sure how to go about that. (Don?t know how I would sell it either but probably not much of a market for it.)  I have my main app on GIT using Monte?s lcVCS but if I did want to go open source with this library I want to to do something simpler like a script only stack library and maybe do a Demo app based on Trevor?s Levure App Framework https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform/levure/ to make it easier to use git.   Does this sound like a good approach?
> 
> We are also looking for a way to access a sandbox with one of the LMS?s to test the proof of concept app against.  If anyone has info on that that would be appreciated.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
>> On May 27, 2020, at 5:25 AM, H?kan Liljegren via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't think LTI is dead at all, most mayor LMSs support LTI today in one way on another. I'm also looking into this as we are using the Canvas LMS at our university (where I have my day-work) so I'm definitely interested in some participation in a LiveCode LTI library. I've just started my work so no code yet though...
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> H?kan
>>> On 27 May 2020, 01:34 +0200, William Prothero via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>>> Martin and Peter:
>>> I am retired, but still creating one (big) educational application. I thought the LMS integration idea had died a death by silence, so I am so glad you are looking into this. I?m very interested, but have not put forth any effort in this direction.
>>> 
>>> Please keep me informed about what you find.
>>> Best,
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> William A. Prothero
>>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>>> 
>>>> On May 25, 2020, at 3:28 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Martin,
>>>> 
>>>> I?ve just begun looking into this myself, so I?m also interested in what anybody knows about this.
>>>> 
>>>> Peter Bogdanoff
>>>> ArtsInteractive
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 25, 2020, at 3:05 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi list
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have been researching how to integrate a desktop application created with LiveCode with a learning Management system (LMS) like Brightspace by D2L, Moodle, Canvas etc. Last time I looked at this SCORM was the standard with TinCan( aka xAPI) as a potential successor. This time around I found those seem to have been superseded by LTI 1.1 going to LTI 1.3.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the documents I have found I see that one of the advantages of LTI 1.3 is that it can be used with desktop and mobile apps. LTI 1.1 only worked with web based applications.
>>>>> 
>>>>> " Mobile Ready?The model is independent of web browsers, a better solution for server-to-server, native desktop and mobile applications.?
>>>>> https://www.imsglobal.org/why-platforms-and-tools-should-adopt-lti-13 <https://www.imsglobal.org/why-platforms-and-tools-should-adopt-lti-13>
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am looking for examples of people doing this but have not found any online.(I don?t want to spend time on idly ddl I looks like it would be possible to use it in an LiveCode application. It uses oAuth 2 for authentication and JSON for messages both of which are available on the the latest version of LiveCode.
>>>>> 
>>>>> First I just want to confirm it has been done for a desktop application in general so I know that is a viable approach for integrating an App into an LMS.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Second I wonder if people have done it using LiveCode.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Martin Koob
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Aug  5 14:25:52 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 11:25:52 -0700
Subject: Integrating Desktop or mobile application with LMS using LTI 1.3
In-Reply-To: <5D31332A-FB41-4D69-94BE-7A85A5CA0E46@rogers.com>
References: <5D31332A-FB41-4D69-94BE-7A85A5CA0E46@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <f5cf686d-5ab6-5ced-8cd3-e2252fc113ae@fourthworld.com>

Martin Koob wrote:

 > Thanks for the responses.  I am still actively working on this.
 >
 > I have hired a summer intern. Molly,  to work on this.  She has been
 > getting up to speed on LiveCode and LTI 1.3 and now she is turning her
 > attention to working on a proof of concept stack to connect with an
 > LMS system and send commands and receive responses and process them.
 >
 > Indeed we have found that LTI 1.3 is supported by many LMS?s to
 > varying degrees and some still just support LTI 1.1 currently. (There
 > is a LTI 2.0 but that is a deprecated standard.
 > http://www.imsglobal.org/lti-security-announcement-and-deprecation-
 > schedule)  The LMSs we have looked at also have their own APIs which
 > seem to have features beyond what the LTI feature set is but still
 > looking at this.

This is very exciting.  Thanks for posting this.


 > I am not at the point yet where I can open source it and I am not
 > really sure how to go about that. (Don?t know how I would sell it
 > either but probably not much of a market for it.)

If you feel the commercial value is lower than the value of open sharing 
and collaborating on fixes and enhancements, open source can be a very 
good option.

Picking a license can be the hard part.  The mechanics of collaborating 
are more flexible.

GPL v3 is what LC's Community Edition uses, useful for open source work 
but impractical for commercial work (it requires that derivative works 
use the same license and also make source available, which is excellent 
for proliferation but a turn-off for those looking to build 
closed-source works on it).

MIT License is compatible with GPL v3, and has no restrictions that 
impair use in either GPL-governed works or proprietary closed-source 
products.


 > I have my main app on GIT using Monte?s lcVCS but if I did want to go
 > open source with this library I want to to do something simpler like a
 > script only stack library and maybe do a Demo app based on Trevor?s
 > Levure App Framework https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform
 >/levure/ to make it easier to use git.   Does this sound like a good
 > approach?

If a framework lets you build the demo more quickly than you could 
without it, go fo it.

But it learning the framework may slow you down, don't worry about the 
demo being in a Github-friendly format.  Folks will be grateful to use 
whatever you choose to spend your time making and sharing, even a simple 
binary stack file.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From scott at elementarysoftware.com  Wed Aug  5 15:57:53 2020
From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (scott at elementarysoftware.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 12:57:53 -0700
Subject: Has anyone created a specialised mobile keyboard?
In-Reply-To: <70AA84F8-63ED-460F-89AF-039D4D3F83D9@mac.com>
References: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
 <a5344ecb-6b30-e308-d66b-e13ef08551b2@fourthworld.com>
 <70AA84F8-63ED-460F-89AF-039D4D3F83D9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <72F19391-39BF-41E7-A969-8E3C779E7D7C@elementarysoftware.com>

Hello Graham,

I agree that using a built in native keyboard is the best solution? if it does what you need. I have an app where the native keyboard (numeric keypad in this case) presented enough distractions of its own that I ended up rolling my own in a later version of the app. For my particular case, this appears to be good solution. Don?t get me wrong, native keyboard is certainly the preferred method, but if you really do need something non-standard, rolling your own might still be reasonable.
?
Scott Morrow

> On Aug 5, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks to all who replied: Jacque has rightly put me off trying to write a true native keyboard. I can (as I said at the beginning) roll my own, but I also see Richard?s point about the familiarity and sophistication of the native keyboards. I think on reflection I?ll just go for the numeric one and make up any deficiency of symbols either by simply telling my user to use certain characters as substitutes for the real thing, or by providing extra buttons for the extra symbols. I will experiment.
> 
> Graham
> 
>> On 5 Aug 2020, at 01:27, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I would encourage you to consider very carefully the standard keyboard layouts provided by the OS before embarking on a custom one.
>> 
>> It's not only a lot of work to make a keyboard, but the common ones are very good, with Swype-like behavior, word prediction, and other things that can be cost-prohibitive for a solo dev to implement.
>> 
>> Users are *very* accustomed to standard input controls. Deviating from those may be useful in unusual designs, but given the high value of consistency for common tasks like text entry you'll want to weigh the pros and cons carefully before deciding your use-case is too far outside of those supported by the OS.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
>> 
>> 
>> Graham Samuel wrote:
>>> What I want to do is to design my own keyboard with numerals and a
>>> few additional special symbols, but I don?t know if it?s possible
>>> to do in native mode, as it were.
>>> 
>>> Graham
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On 4 Aug 2020, at 14:41, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ?You can set which keyboard you want, like email, numeric
>>>> 
>>>> it's in the dictionary, search on mobile keyboard
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Aug  5 18:40:58 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:40:58 -0400
Subject: Debugging  IDE infinite Loops
In-Reply-To: <72F19391-39BF-41E7-A969-8E3C779E7D7C@elementarysoftware.com>
References: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
 <a5344ecb-6b30-e308-d66b-e13ef08551b2@fourthworld.com>
 <70AA84F8-63ED-460F-89AF-039D4D3F83D9@mac.com>
 <72F19391-39BF-41E7-A969-8E3C779E7D7C@elementarysoftware.com>
Message-ID: <005e01d66b79$8098a2f0$81c9e8d0$@net>

Is there a way to break out of an IDE loop or break the IDE into the debugger when it's slow? (LC 9.6.0 Win 10)

I keep getting hangs when exiting the IDE and also very slow app response with the SE open. I want to see if I can get to the bottom of it.

Thanks

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net





From merakosp at gmail.com  Thu Aug  6 06:37:04 2020
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:37:04 +0300
Subject: Debugging IDE infinite Loops
In-Reply-To: <005e01d66b79$8098a2f0$81c9e8d0$@net>
References: <6EFA6FA6-4600-4980-8091-A88AFF350483@mac.com>
 <a5344ecb-6b30-e308-d66b-e13ef08551b2@fourthworld.com>
 <70AA84F8-63ED-460F-89AF-039D4D3F83D9@mac.com>
 <72F19391-39BF-41E7-A969-8E3C779E7D7C@elementarysoftware.com>
 <005e01d66b79$8098a2f0$81c9e8d0$@net>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq8uf5FwWVcdEmLN5ESL2NjQp3aCz3vMU5DmD26e9W5T+w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ralph,

Maybe you can try cmd + dot (.), not sure if it work though.

Regards,
Panos
--

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 01:40, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Is there a way to break out of an IDE loop or break the IDE into the
> debugger when it's slow? (LC 9.6.0 Win 10)
>
> I keep getting hangs when exiting the IDE and also very slow app response
> with the SE open. I want to see if I can get to the bottom of it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com  Thu Aug  6 11:56:13 2020
From: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com (Andrew at MidWest Coast Media)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:56:13 -0400
Subject: Integrating Desktop or mobile application with LMS using LTI 1.3 
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1596643201.8800.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596643201.8800.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <21B41AE3-658A-470A-BA99-DAD5ABFB127C@midwestcoastmedia.com>

I would be excited to help test this! The higher ed school I work with uses Canvas by Instructure, a large open-source LMS. You can find documentation at https://github.com/instructure/canvas-lms/wiki

?Andrew Bell 

> 
> Thanks for the responses.  I am still actively working on this.  
> 
> I have hired a summer intern. Molly,  to work on this.  She has been getting up to speed on LiveCode and LTI 1.3 and now she is turning her attention to working on a proof of concept stack to connect with an LMS system and send commands and receive responses and process them.  
> 
> Indeed we have found that LTI 1.3 is supported by many LMS?s to varying degrees and some still just support LTI 1.1 currently. (There is a LTI 2.0 but that is a deprecated standard. http://www.imsglobal.org/lti-security-announcement-and-deprecation-schedule)  The LMSs we have looked at also have their own APIs which seem to have features beyond what the LTI feature set is but still looking at this. 
> 
> I am not at the point yet where I can open source it and I am not really sure how to go about that. (Don?t know how I would sell it either but probably not much of a market for it.)  I have my main app on GIT using Monte?s lcVCS but if I did want to go open source with this library I want to to do something simpler like a script only stack library and maybe do a Demo app based on Trevor?s Levure App Framework https://livecode.com/products/livecode-platform/levure/ to make it easier to use git.   Does this sound like a good approach?
> 
> We are also looking for a way to access a sandbox with one of the LMS?s to test the proof of concept app against.  If anyone has info on that that would be appreciated.
> 
> Martin




From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Thu Aug  6 12:24:54 2020
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 16:24:54 +0000
Subject: Add Event To Calendar?
Message-ID: <7F6B44A1-CC6C-458A-9946-29124F95158A@clearvisiontech.com>

I'm sure someone has tackled this task... Is there any way to add an event to a calendar on mobile (iOS and Android)?     Looking for a mobileAddCalendarEvent command.  

Thanks in advance,
-Dan


From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Thu Aug  6 12:46:52 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 18:46:52 +0200
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>

Hmpff i just read in the news that even Microsoft can't bring out an xcloud
application due to the apple store rules. What a mess. Only Android users
will be able to stream games as mentioned on dutch tweakers.net website. I
think it's going to cost MS to much money to pay Apple ifvthey would bring
out the app on Apple's store.

Op wo 5 aug. 2020 02:10 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:

> JeeJeeStudio wrote:
>
>  > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now also is
>  > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile app...
>
> "Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.
>
> It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.
>
> It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST APIs in
> addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much development
> time for one vendor.
>
> It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing through
> freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to bring a
> positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.
>
> It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's ads
> into your app design without impairing the user experience.
>
> Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Aug  6 14:28:48 2020
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:28:48 -0400
Subject: Secure Socket
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+y3idSxf7=Xkjt1nTgSqBJep_R5rXGEfQJ-P92fwZGRA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Livecode community,

I've missed working with LiveCode, but I'm back for the next 4+
Months.....and most likely indefinitely. Wooohoo!

I have a quick question about *secure* local sockets.

I'm pushing JSON to livecode using a localhost connection to a service
using "secure socket".

Do you think it is overkill to still encrypt it before I send it?


Thanks,

-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Mobile:647.562.9411


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Aug  6 14:52:26 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:52:26 -0500
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
 <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>

I've been working on mobile apps for a non-profit publishing house. Their customers are large 
organizations that buy products in bulk and then resell to their own customers. Thus, the app 
does not sell to users at all, nor does our client.

I made a minor mistake in one of my progress spinners; the briefly-displayed prompt (less than 
1 second) said "Checking your purchases..." and Apple glommed onto that and wouldn't let go. My 
client and I spent 3 weeks and innumerable emails to Apple to convince them that users were not 
purchasing any products from the company who sponsored the software, nor could they buy 
products from any web site related to the company. We had to answer two different 
purchasing-related questionaires in great detail. They finally relented when we convinced them; 
I changed the prompt to "Checking your library..." and it didn't hurt that we got a different 
reviewer.

Google, who has some similar but less-stringent rules in the Play Store, accepted the app the 
first time without any objections.

Word to the wise: if your app doesn't deal with sales, even indirectly, don't use money-related 
words anywhere. I hope the EU nails them; I consider App Store policies equivalent to 
extortion. Apple holds the majority of mobile users in the U.S. and the App Store is the only 
available outlet for apps. That sounds like a monopoly to me.


On 8/6/20 11:46 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> Hmpff i just read in the news that even Microsoft can't bring out an xcloud
> application due to the apple store rules. What a mess. Only Android users
> will be able to stream games as mentioned on dutch tweakers.net website. I
> think it's going to cost MS to much money to pay Apple ifvthey would bring
> out the app on Apple's store.
> 
> Op wo 5 aug. 2020 02:10 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>> JeeJeeStudio wrote:
>>
>>   > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now also is
>>   > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile app...
>>
>> "Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.
>>
>> It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.
>>
>> It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST APIs in
>> addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much development
>> time for one vendor.
>>
>> It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing through
>> freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to bring a
>> positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.
>>
>> It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's ads
>> into your app design without impairing the user experience.
>>
>> Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.
>>
>> --
>>    Richard Gaskin
>>    Fourth World Systems
>>    Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>    ____________________________________________________________________
>>    Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Thu Aug  6 15:19:54 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:19:54 -0400
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
 <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <009d01d66c26$9353d470$b9fb7d50$@net>

I have an OTA data update for one of my apps. I had to re-word that
"waiting" message a few times until it was approved. The first time it was
"App update is processing, Please wait". Apple's head exploded. Then you
enter into the gauntlet of scrutiny. I agree a different approver helped me
get approved once. Moral: be careful how you word your messages with Apple.

It is a monopoly, no question about it.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 2:52 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: Re: ProtonMail vs Apple

I've been working on mobile apps for a non-profit publishing house. Their
customers are large organizations that buy products in bulk and then resell
to their own customers. Thus, the app does not sell to users at all, nor
does our client.

I made a minor mistake in one of my progress spinners; the briefly-displayed
prompt (less than
1 second) said "Checking your purchases..." and Apple glommed onto that and
wouldn't let go. My client and I spent 3 weeks and innumerable emails to
Apple to convince them that users were not purchasing any products from the
company who sponsored the software, nor could they buy products from any web
site related to the company. We had to answer two different
purchasing-related questionaires in great detail. They finally relented when
we convinced them; I changed the prompt to "Checking your library..." and it
didn't hurt that we got a different reviewer.

Google, who has some similar but less-stringent rules in the Play Store,
accepted the app the first time without any objections.

Word to the wise: if your app doesn't deal with sales, even indirectly,
don't use money-related words anywhere. I hope the EU nails them; I consider
App Store policies equivalent to extortion. Apple holds the majority of
mobile users in the U.S. and the App Store is the only available outlet for
apps. That sounds like a monopoly to me.


On 8/6/20 11:46 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> Hmpff i just read in the news that even Microsoft can't bring out an 
> xcloud application due to the apple store rules. What a mess. Only 
> Android users will be able to stream games as mentioned on dutch 
> tweakers.net website. I think it's going to cost MS to much money to 
> pay Apple ifvthey would bring out the app on Apple's store.
> 
> Op wo 5 aug. 2020 02:10 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>> JeeJeeStudio wrote:
>>
>>   > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now also is
>>   > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile app...
>>
>> "Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.
>>
>> It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.
>>
>> It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST APIs in 
>> addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much development 
>> time for one vendor.
>>
>> It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing 
>> through freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to 
>> bring a positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.
>>
>> It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's ads 
>> into your app design without impairing the user experience.
>>
>> Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.
>>
>> --
>>    Richard Gaskin
>>    Fourth World Systems
>>    Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>    ____________________________________________________________________
>>    Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Thu Aug  6 15:21:57 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:21:57 +0200
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
 <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqiJnndWbuc0b3z=W1x=0TZw3+SpOD1RJTWj+bBV=hvWO1brA@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, that's heavy Jacque.
I'm not at all against Apple products, although it may seem like it
sometimes. I'm against how they work, making it more and more difficult.
I'm for a safe store too. But this is grabbing money from wherever they can.

Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 20:53 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:

> I've been working on mobile apps for a non-profit publishing house. Their
> customers are large
> organizations that buy products in bulk and then resell to their own
> customers. Thus, the app
> does not sell to users at all, nor does our client.
>
> I made a minor mistake in one of my progress spinners; the
> briefly-displayed prompt (less than
> 1 second) said "Checking your purchases..." and Apple glommed onto that
> and wouldn't let go. My
> client and I spent 3 weeks and innumerable emails to Apple to convince
> them that users were not
> purchasing any products from the company who sponsored the software, nor
> could they buy
> products from any web site related to the company. We had to answer two
> different
> purchasing-related questionaires in great detail. They finally relented
> when we convinced them;
> I changed the prompt to "Checking your library..." and it didn't hurt that
> we got a different
> reviewer.
>
> Google, who has some similar but less-stringent rules in the Play Store,
> accepted the app the
> first time without any objections.
>
> Word to the wise: if your app doesn't deal with sales, even indirectly,
> don't use money-related
> words anywhere. I hope the EU nails them; I consider App Store policies
> equivalent to
> extortion. Apple holds the majority of mobile users in the U.S. and the
> App Store is the only
> available outlet for apps. That sounds like a monopoly to me.
>
>
> On 8/6/20 11:46 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> > Hmpff i just read in the news that even Microsoft can't bring out an
> xcloud
> > application due to the apple store rules. What a mess. Only Android users
> > will be able to stream games as mentioned on dutch tweakers.net
> website. I
> > think it's going to cost MS to much money to pay Apple ifvthey would
> bring
> > out the app on Apple's store.
> >
> > Op wo 5 aug. 2020 02:10 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> >> JeeJeeStudio wrote:
> >>
> >>   > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now also is
> >>   > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile
> app...
> >>
> >> "Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.
> >>
> >> It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.
> >>
> >> It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST APIs in
> >> addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much development
> >> time for one vendor.
> >>
> >> It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing through
> >> freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to bring a
> >> positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.
> >>
> >> It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's ads
> >> into your app design without impairing the user experience.
> >>
> >> Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.
> >>
> >> --
> >>    Richard Gaskin
> >>    Fourth World Systems
> >>    Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> >>    ____________________________________________________________________
> >>    Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ilola.antti at gmail.com  Fri Aug  7 03:48:23 2020
From: ilola.antti at gmail.com (Antti Ilola)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:48:23 +0300
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAEqiJnndWbuc0b3z=W1x=0TZw3+SpOD1RJTWj+bBV=hvWO1brA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
 <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CAEqiJnndWbuc0b3z=W1x=0TZw3+SpOD1RJTWj+bBV=hvWO1brA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEKyzxNFnJDoAVVAdN8f9ry1mFcowiVTqN5ZXqQ1sfR_D3+3Ww@mail.gmail.com>

If Apple is so horrible, why do you do software to them and I think that
Apple has no monopoly, since Android shares 85% of the phone market.

Antti

to 6. elok. 2020 klo 22.23 JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode (
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com) kirjoitti:

> Wow, that's heavy Jacque.
> I'm not at all against Apple products, although it may seem like it
> sometimes. I'm against how they work, making it more and more difficult.
> I'm for a safe store too. But this is grabbing money from wherever they
> can.
>
> Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 20:53 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>
> > I've been working on mobile apps for a non-profit publishing house. Their
> > customers are large
> > organizations that buy products in bulk and then resell to their own
> > customers. Thus, the app
> > does not sell to users at all, nor does our client.
> >
> > I made a minor mistake in one of my progress spinners; the
> > briefly-displayed prompt (less than
> > 1 second) said "Checking your purchases..." and Apple glommed onto that
> > and wouldn't let go. My
> > client and I spent 3 weeks and innumerable emails to Apple to convince
> > them that users were not
> > purchasing any products from the company who sponsored the software, nor
> > could they buy
> > products from any web site related to the company. We had to answer two
> > different
> > purchasing-related questionaires in great detail. They finally relented
> > when we convinced them;
> > I changed the prompt to "Checking your library..." and it didn't hurt
> that
> > we got a different
> > reviewer.
> >
> > Google, who has some similar but less-stringent rules in the Play Store,
> > accepted the app the
> > first time without any objections.
> >
> > Word to the wise: if your app doesn't deal with sales, even indirectly,
> > don't use money-related
> > words anywhere. I hope the EU nails them; I consider App Store policies
> > equivalent to
> > extortion. Apple holds the majority of mobile users in the U.S. and the
> > App Store is the only
> > available outlet for apps. That sounds like a monopoly to me.
> >
> >
> > On 8/6/20 11:46 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> > > Hmpff i just read in the news that even Microsoft can't bring out an
> > xcloud
> > > application due to the apple store rules. What a mess. Only Android
> users
> > > will be able to stream games as mentioned on dutch tweakers.net
> > website. I
> > > think it's going to cost MS to much money to pay Apple ifvthey would
> > bring
> > > out the app on Apple's store.
> > >
> > > Op wo 5 aug. 2020 02:10 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> > >
> > >> JeeJeeStudio wrote:
> > >>
> > >>   > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now also
> is
> > >>   > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile
> > app...
> > >>
> > >> "Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.
> > >>
> > >> It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.
> > >>
> > >> It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST APIs in
> > >> addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much development
> > >> time for one vendor.
> > >>
> > >> It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing through
> > >> freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to bring a
> > >> positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.
> > >>
> > >> It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's ads
> > >> into your app design without impairing the user experience.
> > >>
> > >> Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>    Richard Gaskin
> > >>    Fourth World Systems
> > >>    Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the
> Web
> > >>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> > >>    Ambassador at FourthWorld.com
> http://www.FourthWorld.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> use-livecode mailing list
> > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > >> subscription preferences:
> > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> > HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From mark at livecode.com  Fri Aug  7 04:28:33 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 09:28:33 +0100
Subject: Secure Socket
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJL+y3idSxf7=Xkjt1nTgSqBJep_R5rXGEfQJ-P92fwZGRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJL+y3idSxf7=Xkjt1nTgSqBJep_R5rXGEfQJ-P92fwZGRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2e40d2b0a6bf9a8d7d1b049fa4b6d979@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-06 19:28, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
> Do you think it is overkill to still encrypt it before I send it?

Yes :)

Applying industrial strength encryption twice does not increase security 
- it just wastes processor cycles.

Indeed, if you are encrypting data to send over an encrypted stream then 
you must have a secret for this secondary encryption somewhere.

If this secret is transmitted over the wire - then your second set of 
encryption is only as secure as the original connection (if someone 
could sniff the latter, then they can sniff out your secret for the 
extra encryption).

If this secret is not transmitted over the wire and is just 'known' to 
both sides - then it means you must have a secret buried somewhere on 
both sides, probably less securely then the mechanisms used by SSL to 
establish the secret it uses to encrypt the stream.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Fri Aug  7 06:12:05 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:12:05 +0200
Subject: Facturing/Billing Warning Google Play dev console when using Android
 8.0 as minimum version
Message-ID: <58f0bba1-7540-fc33-6078-68be6da11a6a@gmail.com>

Hi,


i got a warning uploading an app update which uses minimum Android 
Version 8.0 Oreo about facturing rights, it does not use facturing.

Also in the standalone settings in-App Purchases is not selected.

Uploading an other app with minimum Android version 5.0 i do not get 
that warning.

Both standalones are build with LC961rc2.

What could cause this?

Do i have to add something in the Android sdk's?

This is the error in Dutch:


        Waarschuwingen

Je hebt een APK of Android App Bundle ge?pload zonder de rechten voor 
FACTURERING of met de rechten voor FACTURERING die is beperkt tot 
specifieke SDK-versies. De rechten voor FACTURERING zijn vereist voor de 
verkoop van in-app-producten.

Translated in English:

Warnings

You uploaded an APK or Android App Bundle without the BILLING rights or 
with the BILLING rights limited to specific SDK versions. BILLING rights 
are required for the sale of in-app products.


Thanks!

Jerry





From andre at andregarzia.com  Fri Aug  7 07:32:14 2020
From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:32:14 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAEKyzxNFnJDoAVVAdN8f9ry1mFcowiVTqN5ZXqQ1sfR_D3+3Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
 <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CAEqiJnndWbuc0b3z=W1x=0TZw3+SpOD1RJTWj+bBV=hvWO1brA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEKyzxNFnJDoAVVAdN8f9ry1mFcowiVTqN5ZXqQ1sfR_D3+3Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3jwTkSxO5XYT_ASX0EXzmqUJnH1n8b4hqd9G9YtxB1-XToOA@mail.gmail.com>

Antti,

Android has 85% of the world market, it all depends on which country you're
selling and which metrics you're using. In the U.S. iOS has 58% of the
smartphone market and 63% of the tablet market. Another important factor is
that iOS users spend more money on apps than their Android peers. So for
those selling mobile apps whose primary market is the U.S. it makes sense
to ship to iOS.

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 08:50, Antti Ilola via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> If Apple is so horrible, why do you do software to them and I think that
> Apple has no monopoly, since Android shares 85% of the phone market.
>
> Antti
>
> to 6. elok. 2020 klo 22.23 JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode (
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com) kirjoitti:
>
> > Wow, that's heavy Jacque.
> > I'm not at all against Apple products, although it may seem like it
> > sometimes. I'm against how they work, making it more and more difficult.
> > I'm for a safe store too. But this is grabbing money from wherever they
> > can.
> >
> > Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 20:53 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > > I've been working on mobile apps for a non-profit publishing house.
> Their
> > > customers are large
> > > organizations that buy products in bulk and then resell to their own
> > > customers. Thus, the app
> > > does not sell to users at all, nor does our client.
> > >
> > > I made a minor mistake in one of my progress spinners; the
> > > briefly-displayed prompt (less than
> > > 1 second) said "Checking your purchases..." and Apple glommed onto that
> > > and wouldn't let go. My
> > > client and I spent 3 weeks and innumerable emails to Apple to convince
> > > them that users were not
> > > purchasing any products from the company who sponsored the software,
> nor
> > > could they buy
> > > products from any web site related to the company. We had to answer two
> > > different
> > > purchasing-related questionaires in great detail. They finally relented
> > > when we convinced them;
> > > I changed the prompt to "Checking your library..." and it didn't hurt
> > that
> > > we got a different
> > > reviewer.
> > >
> > > Google, who has some similar but less-stringent rules in the Play
> Store,
> > > accepted the app the
> > > first time without any objections.
> > >
> > > Word to the wise: if your app doesn't deal with sales, even indirectly,
> > > don't use money-related
> > > words anywhere. I hope the EU nails them; I consider App Store policies
> > > equivalent to
> > > extortion. Apple holds the majority of mobile users in the U.S. and the
> > > App Store is the only
> > > available outlet for apps. That sounds like a monopoly to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/6/20 11:46 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> > > > Hmpff i just read in the news that even Microsoft can't bring out an
> > > xcloud
> > > > application due to the apple store rules. What a mess. Only Android
> > users
> > > > will be able to stream games as mentioned on dutch tweakers.net
> > > website. I
> > > > think it's going to cost MS to much money to pay Apple ifvthey would
> > > bring
> > > > out the app on Apple's store.
> > > >
> > > > Op wo 5 aug. 2020 02:10 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> > > >
> > > >> JeeJeeStudio wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>   > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now
> also
> > is
> > > >>   > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile
> > > app...
> > > >>
> > > >> "Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST APIs in
> > > >> addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much development
> > > >> time for one vendor.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing
> through
> > > >> freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to bring
> a
> > > >> positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's ads
> > > >> into your app design without impairing the user experience.
> > > >>
> > > >> Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >>    Richard Gaskin
> > > >>    Fourth World Systems
> > > >>    Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the
> > Web
> > > >>
> > ____________________________________________________________________
> > > >>    Ambassador at FourthWorld.com
> > http://www.FourthWorld.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> use-livecode mailing list
> > > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > >> subscription preferences:
> > > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > >>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
> > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> > > HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Aug  7 12:07:17 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 11:07:17 -0500
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAF3jwTkSxO5XYT_ASX0EXzmqUJnH1n8b4hqd9G9YtxB1-XToOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
 <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CAEqiJnndWbuc0b3z=W1x=0TZw3+SpOD1RJTWj+bBV=hvWO1brA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEKyzxNFnJDoAVVAdN8f9ry1mFcowiVTqN5ZXqQ1sfR_D3+3Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF3jwTkSxO5XYT_ASX0EXzmqUJnH1n8b4hqd9G9YtxB1-XToOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <173c9ad2f08.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

My primary reason is that my clients always want their mobile app released 
for both platforms.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On August 7, 2020 6:34:45 AM Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Antti,
>
> Android has 85% of the world market, it all depends on which country you're
> selling and which metrics you're using. In the U.S. iOS has 58% of the
> smartphone market and 63% of the tablet market. Another important factor is
> that iOS users spend more money on apps than their Android peers. So for
> those selling mobile apps whose primary market is the U.S. it makes sense
> to ship to iOS.
>
> On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 08:50, Antti Ilola via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> If Apple is so horrible, why do you do software to them and I think that
>> Apple has no monopoly, since Android shares 85% of the phone market.
>>
>> Antti
>>
>> to 6. elok. 2020 klo 22.23 JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode (
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com) kirjoitti:
>>
>> > Wow, that's heavy Jacque.
>> > I'm not at all against Apple products, although it may seem like it
>> > sometimes. I'm against how they work, making it more and more difficult.
>> > I'm for a safe store too. But this is grabbing money from wherever they
>> > can.
>> >
>> > Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 20:53 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
>> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> >
>> > > I've been working on mobile apps for a non-profit publishing house.
>> Their
>> > > customers are large
>> > > organizations that buy products in bulk and then resell to their own
>> > > customers. Thus, the app
>> > > does not sell to users at all, nor does our client.
>> > >
>> > > I made a minor mistake in one of my progress spinners; the
>> > > briefly-displayed prompt (less than
>> > > 1 second) said "Checking your purchases..." and Apple glommed onto that
>> > > and wouldn't let go. My
>> > > client and I spent 3 weeks and innumerable emails to Apple to convince
>> > > them that users were not
>> > > purchasing any products from the company who sponsored the software,
>> nor
>> > > could they buy
>> > > products from any web site related to the company. We had to answer two
>> > > different
>> > > purchasing-related questionaires in great detail. They finally relented
>> > > when we convinced them;
>> > > I changed the prompt to "Checking your library..." and it didn't hurt
>> > that
>> > > we got a different
>> > > reviewer.
>> > >
>> > > Google, who has some similar but less-stringent rules in the Play
>> Store,
>> > > accepted the app the
>> > > first time without any objections.
>> > >
>> > > Word to the wise: if your app doesn't deal with sales, even indirectly,
>> > > don't use money-related
>> > > words anywhere. I hope the EU nails them; I consider App Store policies
>> > > equivalent to
>> > > extortion. Apple holds the majority of mobile users in the U.S. and the
>> > > App Store is the only
>> > > available outlet for apps. That sounds like a monopoly to me.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 8/6/20 11:46 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
>> > > > Hmpff i just read in the news that even Microsoft can't bring out an
>> > > xcloud
>> > > > application due to the apple store rules. What a mess. Only Android
>> > users
>> > > > will be able to stream games as mentioned on dutch tweakers.net
>> > > website. I
>> > > > think it's going to cost MS to much money to pay Apple ifvthey would
>> > > bring
>> > > > out the app on Apple's store.
>> > > >
>> > > > Op wo 5 aug. 2020 02:10 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> > > >
>> > > >> JeeJeeStudio wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >>   > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now
>> also
>> > is
>> > > >>   > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created mobile
>> > > app...
>> > > >>
>> > > >> "Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST APIs in
>> > > >> addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much development
>> > > >> time for one vendor.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing
>> through
>> > > >> freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to bring
>> a
>> > > >> positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's ads
>> > > >> into your app design without impairing the user experience.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> --
>> > > >>    Richard Gaskin
>> > > >>    Fourth World Systems
>> > > >>    Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the
>> > Web
>> > > >>
>> > ____________________________________________________________________
>> > > >>    Ambassador at FourthWorld.com
>> > http://www.FourthWorld.com
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> use-livecode mailing list
>> > > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> > > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> > > >> subscription preferences:
>> > > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> > > >>
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > use-livecode mailing list
>> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> > > subscription preferences:
>> > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> > > HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > use-livecode mailing list
>> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> > > subscription preferences:
>> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > use-livecode mailing list
>> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> > subscription preferences:
>> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>
>
> --
> https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From jiml at netrin.com  Fri Aug  7 13:18:45 2020
From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:18:45 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1596816002.178178.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596816002.178178.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <776FCD9F-2961-4E17-93AB-7F392BA93514@netrin.com>

"A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings dominate a sector or industry. Monopolies can be considered an extreme result of free-market capitalism <https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp> in that absent any restriction or restraints, a single company or group becomes large enough to own all or nearly all of the market (goods, supplies, commodities, infrastructure, and assets) for a particular type of product or service. The term monopoly is often used to describe an entity that has total or near-total control of a market.?
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monopoly.asp

Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a monopoly.
Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.

Jim Lambert

From stephen at barncard.com  Fri Aug  7 14:04:29 2020
From: stephen at barncard.com (Stephen Barncard)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:04:29 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <173c9ad2f08.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CAEqiJnnkZO+3cwKz9GrL7FVGf34=UDqRvwSQ=TWNXb3j+9Nfyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9f2a63be-1cc8-6cf5-4f0b-6cae6795f75b@fourthworld.com>
 <CAEqiJnkqwMK+--6G1Y8i6Z_hssKy6t+Cnhoek6Se3=AZ61fcUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3dbf2e92-2d36-a612-01b3-45741b50d4d2@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CAEqiJnndWbuc0b3z=W1x=0TZw3+SpOD1RJTWj+bBV=hvWO1brA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEKyzxNFnJDoAVVAdN8f9ry1mFcowiVTqN5ZXqQ1sfR_D3+3Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF3jwTkSxO5XYT_ASX0EXzmqUJnH1n8b4hqd9G9YtxB1-XToOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <173c9ad2f08.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <CAFmQfHJJadat9m9PEfb8iz3VYps__CL8aKEjwkm6KHRN22Q4TA@mail.gmail.com>

And Apple knows it.
--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org


On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:08 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> My primary reason is that my clients always want their mobile app released
> for both platforms.
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On August 7, 2020 6:34:45 AM Andre Garzia via use-livecode
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Antti,
> >
> > Android has 85% of the world market, it all depends on which country
> you're
> > selling and which metrics you're using. In the U.S. iOS has 58% of the
> > smartphone market and 63% of the tablet market. Another important factor
> is
> > that iOS users spend more money on apps than their Android peers. So for
> > those selling mobile apps whose primary market is the U.S. it makes sense
> > to ship to iOS.
> >
> > On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 08:50, Antti Ilola via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If Apple is so horrible, why do you do software to them and I think that
> >> Apple has no monopoly, since Android shares 85% of the phone market.
> >>
> >> Antti
> >>
> >> to 6. elok. 2020 klo 22.23 JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode (
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com) kirjoitti:
> >>
> >> > Wow, that's heavy Jacque.
> >> > I'm not at all against Apple products, although it may seem like it
> >> > sometimes. I'm against how they work, making it more and more
> difficult.
> >> > I'm for a safe store too. But this is grabbing money from wherever
> they
> >> > can.
> >> >
> >> > Op do 6 aug. 2020 om 20:53 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >> >
> >> > > I've been working on mobile apps for a non-profit publishing house.
> >> Their
> >> > > customers are large
> >> > > organizations that buy products in bulk and then resell to their own
> >> > > customers. Thus, the app
> >> > > does not sell to users at all, nor does our client.
> >> > >
> >> > > I made a minor mistake in one of my progress spinners; the
> >> > > briefly-displayed prompt (less than
> >> > > 1 second) said "Checking your purchases..." and Apple glommed onto
> that
> >> > > and wouldn't let go. My
> >> > > client and I spent 3 weeks and innumerable emails to Apple to
> convince
> >> > > them that users were not
> >> > > purchasing any products from the company who sponsored the software,
> >> nor
> >> > > could they buy
> >> > > products from any web site related to the company. We had to answer
> two
> >> > > different
> >> > > purchasing-related questionaires in great detail. They finally
> relented
> >> > > when we convinced them;
> >> > > I changed the prompt to "Checking your library..." and it didn't
> hurt
> >> > that
> >> > > we got a different
> >> > > reviewer.
> >> > >
> >> > > Google, who has some similar but less-stringent rules in the Play
> >> Store,
> >> > > accepted the app the
> >> > > first time without any objections.
> >> > >
> >> > > Word to the wise: if your app doesn't deal with sales, even
> indirectly,
> >> > > don't use money-related
> >> > > words anywhere. I hope the EU nails them; I consider App Store
> policies
> >> > > equivalent to
> >> > > extortion. Apple holds the majority of mobile users in the U.S. and
> the
> >> > > App Store is the only
> >> > > available outlet for apps. That sounds like a monopoly to me.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On 8/6/20 11:46 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> >> > > > Hmpff i just read in the news that even Microsoft can't bring out
> an
> >> > > xcloud
> >> > > > application due to the apple store rules. What a mess. Only
> Android
> >> > users
> >> > > > will be able to stream games as mentioned on dutch tweakers.net
> >> > > website. I
> >> > > > think it's going to cost MS to much money to pay Apple ifvthey
> would
> >> > > bring
> >> > > > out the app on Apple's store.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Op wo 5 aug. 2020 02:10 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> >> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> JeeJeeStudio wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>   > 1 positive thing then on a thing we don't have in LC and now
> >> also
> >> > is
> >> > > >>   > removed...the possibility to put ads in your LC created
> mobile
> >> > > app...
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> "Possible" is a big word. It covers nearly everything.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> It's possible to use LC Build to support ad network APIs.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> It's also possible to find saner ad networks that offer REST
> APIs in
> >> > > >> addition to binary, so devs don't need to commit as much
> development
> >> > > >> time for one vendor.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> It's possible but less likely that an app not worth monetizing
> >> through
> >> > > >> freemiums, direct payment, or other model will earn enough to
> bring
> >> a
> >> > > >> positive ROI for the effort of implementing ads.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> It's less likely that you'll be able to shoe-horn someone else's
> ads
> >> > > >> into your app design without impairing the user experience.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Lots of things are possible.  Fewer things are likely.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> --
> >> > > >>    Richard Gaskin
> >> > > >>    Fourth World Systems
> >> > > >>    Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and
> the
> >> > Web
> >> > > >>
> >> > ____________________________________________________________________
> >> > > >>    Ambassador at FourthWorld.com
> >> > http://www.FourthWorld.com
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > > >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> > > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> > > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> > > >> subscription preferences:
> >> > > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >> > > >>
> >> > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > use-livecode mailing list
> >> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> > > subscription preferences:
> >> > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> >> > > HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > use-livecode mailing list
> >> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> > > subscription preferences:
> >> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > use-livecode mailing list
> >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> > subscription preferences:
> >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
> > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From andre at andregarzia.com  Fri Aug  7 14:14:52 2020
From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 19:14:52 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <776FCD9F-2961-4E17-93AB-7F392BA93514@netrin.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596816002.178178.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <776FCD9F-2961-4E17-93AB-7F392BA93514@netrin.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3jwTnqt5sc+OYB78UNUSS64f_Ltcribkgx3xLjk7ghFHcydw@mail.gmail.com>

Jim,

> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
monopoly.
> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.

There is another way to approach this. Apple has the monopoly of the iOS
market, they can dictate and abuse their authority in that market and there
is nothing iOS users can do about that. There is no other app store to buy
apps from. Now contrast that with Android. Google doesn't have the monopoly
on Android. You have other app stores besides Google Play, other device
makers, and as a developer you can ship apps on your own and on all or any
of the stores.

If you allow me an analogy, imagine that you bought an iHouse, it is a
pleasant house, very elegant. Still, all the furniture, all the food,
everything you might ever want to put inside your iHouse needs to come from
Apple Store. Is that still your house? Does Apple have a monopoly?



On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 18:20, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> "A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings dominate a
> sector or industry. Monopolies can be considered an extreme result of
> free-market capitalism <
> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp> in that absent any
> restriction or restraints, a single company or group becomes large enough
> to own all or nearly all of the market (goods, supplies, commodities,
> infrastructure, and assets) for a particular type of product or service.
> The term monopoly is often used to describe an entity that has total or
> near-total control of a market.?
> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monopoly.asp
>
> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
> monopoly.
> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
> policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
>
> Jim Lambert
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia


From brian at milby7.com  Fri Aug  7 14:26:54 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:26:54 -0400
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAF3jwTnqt5sc+OYB78UNUSS64f_Ltcribkgx3xLjk7ghFHcydw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF3jwTnqt5sc+OYB78UNUSS64f_Ltcribkgx3xLjk7ghFHcydw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A0600A50-977A-4D71-B915-B1D0B4C8B6D5@milby7.com>

Not sure the question is relevant.  You chose to buy the iHouse over the droidHouse for some reason.  Maybe you wanted to live in the neighborhood with the lowest crime rate.

Also, until Apple is forced to allow other companies to make compatible phones, I don?t see how the logic works.  Google doesn?t make the only Android phone.

When I read Apple?s guidelines I don?t see anything about price parity.  You can?t point out that it is cheaper elsewhere, but are you required to charge the same?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 7, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Jim,
> 
>> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
> monopoly.
>> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
> policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
> 
> There is another way to approach this. Apple has the monopoly of the iOS
> market, they can dictate and abuse their authority in that market and there
> is nothing iOS users can do about that. There is no other app store to buy
> apps from. Now contrast that with Android. Google doesn't have the monopoly
> on Android. You have other app stores besides Google Play, other device
> makers, and as a developer you can ship apps on your own and on all or any
> of the stores.
> 
> If you allow me an analogy, imagine that you bought an iHouse, it is a
> pleasant house, very elegant. Still, all the furniture, all the food,
> everything you might ever want to put inside your iHouse needs to come from
> Apple Store. Is that still your house? Does Apple have a monopoly?
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 18:20, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> "A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings dominate a
>> sector or industry. Monopolies can be considered an extreme result of
>> free-market capitalism <
>> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp> in that absent any
>> restriction or restraints, a single company or group becomes large enough
>> to own all or nearly all of the market (goods, supplies, commodities,
>> infrastructure, and assets) for a particular type of product or service.
>> The term monopoly is often used to describe an entity that has total or
>> near-total control of a market.?
>> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monopoly.asp
>> 
>> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
>> monopoly.
>> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
>> policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
>> 
>> Jim Lambert
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From stephen at barncard.com  Fri Aug  7 14:48:32 2020
From: stephen at barncard.com (Stephen Barncard)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:48:32 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <A0600A50-977A-4D71-B915-B1D0B4C8B6D5@milby7.com>
References: <CAF3jwTnqt5sc+OYB78UNUSS64f_Ltcribkgx3xLjk7ghFHcydw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A0600A50-977A-4D71-B915-B1D0B4C8B6D5@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <CAFmQfH+-oihwOrAVh7xDB9RtFZoFoqY5R_=3kf04SuouVA+jvA@mail.gmail.com>

I thought "web apps" were going to level the playing field, and they could
be made to look just like iPhone apps on an iPhone, one just rigs the css
and graphics.  How did that work out?   I do love Livecode
server....brilliant.

(full disclosure,  I hate using phones for stuff I can do on a desktop, a
big reason why I gave up development except for desktop apps I make to
support my other activities )

( I make video too, and will not do 'portrait' mode under any circumstances
)

(I'm watching Lewis Black as I type this, pardon my tone)
--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org


On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 11:27 AM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Not sure the question is relevant.  You chose to buy the iHouse over the
> droidHouse for some reason.  Maybe you wanted to live in the neighborhood
> with the lowest crime rate.
>
> Also, until Apple is forced to allow other companies to make compatible
> phones, I don?t see how the logic works.  Google doesn?t make the only
> Android phone.
>
> When I read Apple?s guidelines I don?t see anything about price parity.
> You can?t point out that it is cheaper elsewhere, but are you required to
> charge the same?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 7, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?Jim,
> >
> >> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
> > monopoly.
> >> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
> > policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
> >
> > There is another way to approach this. Apple has the monopoly of the iOS
> > market, they can dictate and abuse their authority in that market and
> there
> > is nothing iOS users can do about that. There is no other app store to
> buy
> > apps from. Now contrast that with Android. Google doesn't have the
> monopoly
> > on Android. You have other app stores besides Google Play, other device
> > makers, and as a developer you can ship apps on your own and on all or
> any
> > of the stores.
> >
> > If you allow me an analogy, imagine that you bought an iHouse, it is a
> > pleasant house, very elegant. Still, all the furniture, all the food,
> > everything you might ever want to put inside your iHouse needs to come
> from
> > Apple Store. Is that still your house? Does Apple have a monopoly?
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 18:20, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> "A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings dominate
> a
> >> sector or industry. Monopolies can be considered an extreme result of
> >> free-market capitalism <
> >> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp> in that absent any
> >> restriction or restraints, a single company or group becomes large
> enough
> >> to own all or nearly all of the market (goods, supplies, commodities,
> >> infrastructure, and assets) for a particular type of product or service.
> >> The term monopoly is often used to describe an entity that has total or
> >> near-total control of a market.?
> >> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monopoly.asp
> >>
> >> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
> >> monopoly.
> >> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
> >> policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
> >>
> >> Jim Lambert
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
> > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From andre at andregarzia.com  Fri Aug  7 15:29:46 2020
From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 20:29:46 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAFmQfH+-oihwOrAVh7xDB9RtFZoFoqY5R_=3kf04SuouVA+jvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF3jwTnqt5sc+OYB78UNUSS64f_Ltcribkgx3xLjk7ghFHcydw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A0600A50-977A-4D71-B915-B1D0B4C8B6D5@milby7.com>
 <CAFmQfH+-oihwOrAVh7xDB9RtFZoFoqY5R_=3kf04SuouVA+jvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3jwT=p3q50q49q4hWatbKc+sfYS-1yQt1GmnzQBxO8Aep12A@mail.gmail.com>

Stephen,

Web Apps don't level the playing field because Apple controls the web
engine on iOS. They don't allow any other web engine on the platform, so if
they don't implement an API that would hurt their monopoly for whatever
reason their PR machine uses as justification, we end up with a weaker web
platform.

Apple has done some superb stuff recently with their browser. Their
adoption of the webextensions API alone is a major victory for me. Still
hold all the keys and without competition it becomes hard to advance
something.




On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 19:50, Stephen Barncard via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I thought "web apps" were going to level the playing field, and they could
> be made to look just like iPhone apps on an iPhone, one just rigs the css
> and graphics.  How did that work out?   I do love Livecode
> server....brilliant.
>
> (full disclosure,  I hate using phones for stuff I can do on a desktop, a
> big reason why I gave up development except for desktop apps I make to
> support my other activities )
>
> ( I make video too, and will not do 'portrait' mode under any circumstances
> )
>
> (I'm watching Lewis Black as I type this, pardon my tone)
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 11:27 AM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Not sure the question is relevant.  You chose to buy the iHouse over the
> > droidHouse for some reason.  Maybe you wanted to live in the neighborhood
> > with the lowest crime rate.
> >
> > Also, until Apple is forced to allow other companies to make compatible
> > phones, I don?t see how the logic works.  Google doesn?t make the only
> > Android phone.
> >
> > When I read Apple?s guidelines I don?t see anything about price parity.
> > You can?t point out that it is cheaper elsewhere, but are you required to
> > charge the same?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Aug 7, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?Jim,
> > >
> > >> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually
> have a
> > > monopoly.
> > >> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
> > > policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
> > >
> > > There is another way to approach this. Apple has the monopoly of the
> iOS
> > > market, they can dictate and abuse their authority in that market and
> > there
> > > is nothing iOS users can do about that. There is no other app store to
> > buy
> > > apps from. Now contrast that with Android. Google doesn't have the
> > monopoly
> > > on Android. You have other app stores besides Google Play, other device
> > > makers, and as a developer you can ship apps on your own and on all or
> > any
> > > of the stores.
> > >
> > > If you allow me an analogy, imagine that you bought an iHouse, it is a
> > > pleasant house, very elegant. Still, all the furniture, all the food,
> > > everything you might ever want to put inside your iHouse needs to come
> > from
> > > Apple Store. Is that still your house? Does Apple have a monopoly?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 18:20, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings
> dominate
> > a
> > >> sector or industry. Monopolies can be considered an extreme result of
> > >> free-market capitalism <
> > >> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp> in that absent
> any
> > >> restriction or restraints, a single company or group becomes large
> > enough
> > >> to own all or nearly all of the market (goods, supplies, commodities,
> > >> infrastructure, and assets) for a particular type of product or
> service.
> > >> The term monopoly is often used to describe an entity that has total
> or
> > >> near-total control of a market.?
> > >> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monopoly.asp
> > >>
> > >> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually
> have a
> > >> monopoly.
> > >> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
> > >> policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
> > >>
> > >> Jim Lambert
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> use-livecode mailing list
> > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > >> subscription preferences:
> > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
> > > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia


From andre at andregarzia.com  Fri Aug  7 15:34:52 2020
From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 20:34:52 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <A0600A50-977A-4D71-B915-B1D0B4C8B6D5@milby7.com>
References: <CAF3jwTnqt5sc+OYB78UNUSS64f_Ltcribkgx3xLjk7ghFHcydw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A0600A50-977A-4D71-B915-B1D0B4C8B6D5@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3jwTmYXNd2M4RppXtGBGTV7VyBkYBEzu5KnoKz_PJLWe1+KA@mail.gmail.com>

Brian,

It is not about Apple allowing clones. It is about Apple opening iOS for
other stores. Every other platform has multiple app stores, for example, on
my Samsung Galaxy Note 8 I have Play Store, Galaxy Store, F-Droid, and some
apps that were sideloaded after being purchased/downloaded from the web.

Apple with its monopoly of what can run on iOS has been preventing not only
any app that would compete with their own apps (such as alternative web
engines) but also using double standards to enforce their ruling, favouring
rich clients and hurting small ISVs, such as the case of protonmail and
others. If Apple decides iOS is not a place for your software, you're dead.
If Google decides you can't be on Play Store, you can still place your app
on other stores and ship them from your website yourself.

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 19:28, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Not sure the question is relevant.  You chose to buy the iHouse over the
> droidHouse for some reason.  Maybe you wanted to live in the neighborhood
> with the lowest crime rate.
>
> Also, until Apple is forced to allow other companies to make compatible
> phones, I don?t see how the logic works.  Google doesn?t make the only
> Android phone.
>
> When I read Apple?s guidelines I don?t see anything about price parity.
> You can?t point out that it is cheaper elsewhere, but are you required to
> charge the same?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 7, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?Jim,
> >
> >> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
> > monopoly.
> >> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
> > policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
> >
> > There is another way to approach this. Apple has the monopoly of the iOS
> > market, they can dictate and abuse their authority in that market and
> there
> > is nothing iOS users can do about that. There is no other app store to
> buy
> > apps from. Now contrast that with Android. Google doesn't have the
> monopoly
> > on Android. You have other app stores besides Google Play, other device
> > makers, and as a developer you can ship apps on your own and on all or
> any
> > of the stores.
> >
> > If you allow me an analogy, imagine that you bought an iHouse, it is a
> > pleasant house, very elegant. Still, all the furniture, all the food,
> > everything you might ever want to put inside your iHouse needs to come
> from
> > Apple Store. Is that still your house? Does Apple have a monopoly?
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 18:20, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> "A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings dominate
> a
> >> sector or industry. Monopolies can be considered an extreme result of
> >> free-market capitalism <
> >> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp> in that absent any
> >> restriction or restraints, a single company or group becomes large
> enough
> >> to own all or nearly all of the market (goods, supplies, commodities,
> >> infrastructure, and assets) for a particular type of product or service.
> >> The term monopoly is often used to describe an entity that has total or
> >> near-total control of a market.?
> >> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monopoly.asp
> >>
> >> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
> >> monopoly.
> >> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
> >> policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
> >>
> >> Jim Lambert
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
> > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia


From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Aug  7 16:09:04 2020
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:09:04 -0400
Subject: Secure Socket
In-Reply-To: <2e40d2b0a6bf9a8d7d1b049fa4b6d979@livecode.com>
References: <CAPzQJL+y3idSxf7=Xkjt1nTgSqBJep_R5rXGEfQJ-P92fwZGRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2e40d2b0a6bf9a8d7d1b049fa4b6d979@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLWj+4UDV2w9S1Nrmy_rUzGUpzPweSk973mhtqvbooZBg@mail.gmail.com>

Mark, thank you for taking the time and helping me make peace on this
subject.



On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 4:28 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2020-08-06 19:28, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
> > Do you think it is overkill to still encrypt it before I send it?
>
> Yes :)
>
> Applying industrial strength encryption twice does not increase security
> - it just wastes processor cycles.
>
> Indeed, if you are encrypting data to send over an encrypted stream then
> you must have a secret for this secondary encryption somewhere.
>
> If this secret is transmitted over the wire - then your second set of
> encryption is only as secure as the original connection (if someone
> could sniff the latter, then they can sniff out your secret for the
> extra encryption).
>
> If this secret is not transmitted over the wire and is just 'known' to
> both sides - then it means you must have a secret buried somewhere on
> both sides, probably less securely then the mechanisms used by SSL to
> establish the secret it uses to encrypt the stream.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Mobile:647.562.9411


From brian at milby7.com  Fri Aug  7 16:16:37 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:16:37 -0400
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAF3jwTmYXNd2M4RppXtGBGTV7VyBkYBEzu5KnoKz_PJLWe1+KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF3jwTmYXNd2M4RppXtGBGTV7VyBkYBEzu5KnoKz_PJLWe1+KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6EB72223-71B1-4AB4-8574-250FBC1347CD@milby7.com>

Apple created a closed platform with their own store and rules.  Now that they are successful to say that they must change seems incorrect.  For whatever reason people like the product and I think a big part IS the store and model.  I don?t think another store is the answer and rather think it would be a detriment.

Comparing Apple to Google is at the core different.  One started as an open platform and one started closed.  There really aren?t any other platforms that are viable in the smart phone space.

When your bring up competition, there are other remedies that could be implemented.  Allowing direct competition to their own apps could possibly be required.  Pandora and Amazon Music are a couple of direct competitors that are available.  Same thing goes for video.

There are other closed platforms.  A good example is the video game market.  Can you download a game from another store than the one the maker provides?  What is their cut on games?  Can anyone submit free games that anyone can download?

Brian

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 7, 2020, at 3:36 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Brian,
> 
> It is not about Apple allowing clones. It is about Apple opening iOS for
> other stores. Every other platform has multiple app stores, for example, on
> my Samsung Galaxy Note 8 I have Play Store, Galaxy Store, F-Droid, and some
> apps that were sideloaded after being purchased/downloaded from the web.
> 
> Apple with its monopoly of what can run on iOS has been preventing not only
> any app that would compete with their own apps (such as alternative web
> engines) but also using double standards to enforce their ruling, favouring
> rich clients and hurting small ISVs, such as the case of protonmail and
> others. If Apple decides iOS is not a place for your software, you're dead.
> If Google decides you can't be on Play Store, you can still place your app
> on other stores and ship them from your website yourself.
> 
>> On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 19:28, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Not sure the question is relevant.  You chose to buy the iHouse over the
>> droidHouse for some reason.  Maybe you wanted to live in the neighborhood
>> with the lowest crime rate.
>> 
>> Also, until Apple is forced to allow other companies to make compatible
>> phones, I don?t see how the logic works.  Google doesn?t make the only
>> Android phone.
>> 
>> When I read Apple?s guidelines I don?t see anything about price parity.
>> You can?t point out that it is cheaper elsewhere, but are you required to
>> charge the same?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 7, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?Jim,
>>> 
>>>> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
>>> monopoly.
>>>> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
>>> policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
>>> 
>>> There is another way to approach this. Apple has the monopoly of the iOS
>>> market, they can dictate and abuse their authority in that market and
>> there
>>> is nothing iOS users can do about that. There is no other app store to
>> buy
>>> apps from. Now contrast that with Android. Google doesn't have the
>> monopoly
>>> on Android. You have other app stores besides Google Play, other device
>>> makers, and as a developer you can ship apps on your own and on all or
>> any
>>> of the stores.
>>> 
>>> If you allow me an analogy, imagine that you bought an iHouse, it is a
>>> pleasant house, very elegant. Still, all the furniture, all the food,
>>> everything you might ever want to put inside your iHouse needs to come
>> from
>>> Apple Store. Is that still your house? Does Apple have a monopoly?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 18:20, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> "A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings dominate
>> a
>>>> sector or industry. Monopolies can be considered an extreme result of
>>>> free-market capitalism <
>>>> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp> in that absent any
>>>> restriction or restraints, a single company or group becomes large
>> enough
>>>> to own all or nearly all of the market (goods, supplies, commodities,
>>>> infrastructure, and assets) for a particular type of product or service.
>>>> The term monopoly is often used to describe an entity that has total or
>>>> near-total control of a market.?
>>>> https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monopoly.asp
>>>> 
>>>> Even with 58% of the US smartphone market Apple does not actually have a
>>>> monopoly.
>>>> Now there may be plenty of good reasons to object to Apple?s app store
>>>> policies but let?s not misuse the term monopoly.
>>>> 
>>>> Jim Lambert
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
>>> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org  Fri Aug  7 17:53:27 2020
From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:53:27 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <6EB72223-71B1-4AB4-8574-250FBC1347CD@milby7.com>
References: <CAF3jwTmYXNd2M4RppXtGBGTV7VyBkYBEzu5KnoKz_PJLWe1+KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6EB72223-71B1-4AB4-8574-250FBC1347CD@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <E4507A14-082A-403D-80BB-3065B396E120@earthlearningsolutions.org>

Folks:
One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point of view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it. I agree that the hoops one has to go through to get an app in the Apple store are a big pain, and that it seems unfair for Apple to get a cut of online advertising. But, does the end user care? 

I code in Livecode and always curse and struggle to get an app to load onto my phone. I also sympathize with the seemingly constant changes to Apple's requirements. But, as a user of iPhone apps, I really appreciate Apple?s attention to privacy and security. Would I sacrifice the user oriented qualities for the developer hassles? Probably not, at least with out a lot of other info about how Apple?s hoops for developers impact the user side for me. But I would find it unacceptable to sacrifice security and privacy.

Best,
Bill

William A. Prothero
Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
http://earthlearningsolutions.org/



From jiml at netrin.com  Sat Aug  8 17:15:10 2020
From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 14:15:10 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1596902402.422041.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596902402.422041.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <F0212759-5FA3-46E5-A7CE-B1810638B9A9@netrin.com>

BrianM wrote:
> One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point of view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it

True. 
In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are there to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of consumers.   Or our end users.

Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers? Consumer behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers are willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services. 

Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system. But that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a monopolistic one. And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is nothing iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't want to buy into Apple?s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers can choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen if Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer Apple's strict proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it. 

Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us jump through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple constantly changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is it? Or is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their consumers?

There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you think you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell your app on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?

The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make little or no money, regardless of OS. 
So is it painful to surrender 30% of nothing? ;)

But back to the purpose of this list, aren't we lucky to have LiveCode, a development platform that gives us the power to develop for whatever platforms make sense for us?

Jim Lambert

From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sat Aug  8 22:17:58 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 19:17:58 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <6EB72223-71B1-4AB4-8574-250FBC1347CD@milby7.com>
References: <6EB72223-71B1-4AB4-8574-250FBC1347CD@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <7933daa5-fd59-6c5c-3a3f-ca645721edfc@fourthworld.com>

Two thoughts on this, possibly worth pondering:


1. The definition of "antitrust" may be outdated.

Antitrust regs kick in when one company has undue control over an industry.

What exactly is "undue"?

What exactly is an "industry"?

In a world where "products" and "industries" and "platforms" are 
increasingly virtual, overlapping, and interconnected, the defining 
frame of reference for those terms is in flux, almost continuously.

If I control all automobile production, customers appear "happy" because 
they're choosing my product rather than other choices in the 
transportation industry like motorcycles, trucks, bicycles, trains, 
buses, scooters, etc.

As long as there is a single bookstore anywhere on the Internet, can 
Bezos say Amazon's practices are not predatory?

And why do duopolies get a free pass altogether?

I don't have the answers to these questions.  But these - and many 
others - seem worth asking.


A small subset of these questions are being asked of Apple by antitrust 
regulators as we speak:

"Apple?s antitrust woes stem from its obsessions with control and money"
https://venturebeat.com/2020/08/07/apples-antitrust-woes-stem-from-its-obsessions-with-control-and-money/



2. The definition of "trust" may be outdated.

Consider this brief list:

- Tim Cook
- Satya Nadella
- Sundar Pichai
- Mark Zuckerberg
- Jeff Bezos

Five men. Five.

Together they shape, and to some degree control, most communications 
throughout humanity's infosphere.

Five. Just five men.

As just one small corner, consider:

Modern media is largely supported by advertising. 70% of all online ad 
money goes to two companies, Google and Facebook. Two. Just Two.

Literally EVERYTHING else in the online world supported by ads has to 
survive by subdividing the remaining 30%.  Everything. Thousands of news 
and media orgs, millions of blogs and apps, billions of pages.

And that's just commerce. How many times do we need to read in the 
papers about yet another of the Big Five either supporting despotic 
regimes, or partnering with middlemen whose despot clients seek to 
undermine democracies? The list of those affected is long, and growing 
right now even as I type this: Georgia, Ukraine, US, Brexit, France, and 
  dozens more across every continent on the planet but Antarctica, using 
digital media to disseminate disinformation.

Do you trust that five men can enjoy unprecedented power over the flow 
of commerce and ideas and somehow keep your best interests in mind, or 
the interests of the other 7.8 billion people?


This week four out of those five were invited to answer questions about 
commerce and control by a thankfully-for-them-largely-out-of-touch Congress:

"What a Trove of Emails From Facebook, Amazon, Apple and Google Could 
Mean for Potential Antitrust Cases"
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/what-a-trove-of-emails-from-facebook-amazon-apple-and-google-could-mean-for-potential-antitrust-cases/2554850/


Maybe this is all just how it's supposed to be.  Maybe this is what the 
dream of success is supposed to be about, and it's just whiny 
malcontents who don't get it.

Or maybe it's time for new thinking in response to new circumstances.

How long was it between the dawn of the petroleum era and the antitrust 
moves against Standard Oil?  Sometimes it takes a while for regulatory 
ideas to catch up with trends...

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Sun Aug  9 01:51:40 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2020 00:51:40 -0500
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <7933daa5-fd59-6c5c-3a3f-ca645721edfc@fourthworld.com>
References: <6EB72223-71B1-4AB4-8574-250FBC1347CD@milby7.com>
 <7933daa5-fd59-6c5c-3a3f-ca645721edfc@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <173d1c649e0.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

This:
"PC and Mac users have assumed for decades that they could choose whatever 
they wanted to see, hear, and play on their own computers. But with iOS, 
Apple tried to avoid surrendering that level of openness, at least for 
content viewed through native apps."

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On August 8, 2020 9:20:32 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> "Apple?s antitrust woes stem from its obsessions with control and money"
> https://venturebeat.com/2020/08/07/apples-antitrust-woes-stem-from-its-obsessions-with-control-and-money/






From andre at andregarzia.com  Sun Aug  9 10:33:39 2020
From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:33:39 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <173d1c649e0.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <6EB72223-71B1-4AB4-8574-250FBC1347CD@milby7.com>
 <7933daa5-fd59-6c5c-3a3f-ca645721edfc@fourthworld.com>
 <173d1c649e0.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3jwT=uNG16n_brNtEtO1XpWdjTbQV4PzEKdvOOgWrnw1QP2g@mail.gmail.com>

People saying that there are Apple competitors in the App Store are missing
some crucial details. First, since Apple takes 30% cut of all ecommerce
that passes through it, it basically means that competitors can't really
compete with Apple owns offers that don't need to go through that fee.
Imagine if you sold a product and all your direct competitors also gave you
30% of their earnings. They can't really compete.

Another problem is that Apple will change/tweak iOS APIs to benefit their
own services, that is expected but it is not fair. If you control the
device, the operating system, the programming languages, and the
marketplace, and a lot of services, you can make them move together and
competition be damned. This was the case with browsers, Apple allowed its
own Safari browser to use a more modern and powerful webengine and forced
every single other browser to use an outdated webview. This is no longer
the case but this was the case for years.

You can't compete when Apple can pull the rug from under your feet for
their benefit. They can cite whatever reason they want since there is no
oversight and they are not really accountable to any agency or standard
body. This affects LiveCode and every single other third party app creation
toolkit. Apple can simply create a boatload of new API changes in tandem
with their services and only tell third-party vendors when it is to late to
ship a competitor in time. While you're busy patching your software to
please the App Store Gods, Apple is there poaching your users to their
service. The only time they failed to do that was with the dumpster fire
that was Apple Maps.

As Richard said, our current wording and practices regarding monopolies,
and other unhealthful industry practices, is outdated and was not meant to
serve the 21st Century. They were created when factories and physical goods
and in-person services were the most advanced stuff out there. They were
never meant to cope with the advances of the information age. Even with the
little bells splitting and other similar cases, current day monopolies and
unhealthful companies don't exactly match what we have been told a monopoly
should look like while still benefiting from monopoly-like advantages.

There is no such thing as a good company. Companies exist for their own
benefit and the benefit of those who own shares in it. Apple PR machine
makes it sound like a fantastic thing, it is not, it is just a company. For
example the whole privacy angle that Apple is exploring now is just an
attack on Google because no way that Google can counter any of that since
it is an ad revenue company, it can't play the privacy card. You might like
the products, you might make a living out of them, that is OK, but don't
believe that Apple is nothing but another ruthless and aggressive SV
company that will bring its "attention" to you if you try to make it
relinquish even an ounce of control over its monopoly.

A lot of your life passes through these devices. Developers and users need
more agency over them.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 06:53, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> This:
> "PC and Mac users have assumed for decades that they could choose whatever
> they wanted to see, hear, and play on their own computers. But with iOS,
> Apple tried to avoid surrendering that level of openness, at least for
> content viewed through native apps."
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On August 8, 2020 9:20:32 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > "Apple?s antitrust woes stem from its obsessions with control and money"
> >
> https://venturebeat.com/2020/08/07/apples-antitrust-woes-stem-from-its-obsessions-with-control-and-money/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia


From andre at andregarzia.com  Sun Aug  9 10:51:32 2020
From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia)
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:51:32 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <F0212759-5FA3-46E5-A7CE-B1810638B9A9@netrin.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596902402.422041.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <F0212759-5FA3-46E5-A7CE-B1810638B9A9@netrin.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3jwTnAqf87MVrSRLKk_LWMN38yumpGCpxaHiNUDPU7-qtLLQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?

Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that is
prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you can't
have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it harder
to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users because it
would allow for better and more powerful web apps.

Since you can't sideload apps, you as a user need to have Apple permission
before installing software on the device you purchased and should own. You
as a developer are allowed to sell software outside of Apple's blessing,
even if you have customers interested in the software you make. Apple is a
gatekeeper and a very picky one.

Gatekeepers are harmful to consumers and sellers. Since you as a developer
can't simply compile software and sell it own your own page without Apple
double blessing, you're not really in control of your platform and Apple
may exercise the right to cut you out of the platform at any time. This is
harmful.

> Consumer behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary,
consumers are willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services

That is totally not true because you can't measure it. You can't measure
"iOS with a more open ecosystem" vs "iOS with its current draconian
ecosystem" because that you don't have the more open version to match it
against the current one. The choice here is not between Apple and Android.
Apple could still offer the same software, services, and hardware, and be
more open. People would still choose them. No one chooses the option with
less options and gatekeepers if they have an alternative. The tight
integration between iOS and macOS devices is wonderful and people are happy
to pay a premium for such quality. If you ask any Apple user why they buy
Apple, no one will answer: "Because I like the way they don't allow
developers to compete with Apple itself" which is why the EU and other
companies are crying wolf in the direction of one infinite loop. People
will say they choose Apple because of the attention to detail, the quality
of service, hardware, and software, none of which would be gone if Apple
was more open.

The key to understand this is that all that you like about Apple can still
be there, including the App store. If you want to stay in an environment
like what we have today, it should be possible to do so. But you should
also have options for when you want to step outside. There should be
alternative stores or alternative ways to distribute software.

I'm not saying "burn iOS and Apple". I'm saying the current practices
benefit no one but Apple and are harmful to a healthy ecosystem. They could
still be Apple and not be a bully. For example, the need of notarizing apps
is going to make distributing FOSS on macOS a bit harder. Once Apple moves
to its own ARM CPUs, it will be harder for every third-party vendor to
compete with Apple solutions as they'll be able to cram custom silicon like
T2 and lock down the machine in a way that has not been done in ages.

If I was LC I'd be throwing some more people into making sure LC runs
really well under Linux and Windows, both of which are second class
citizens when compared to macOS. Heck the IDE under windows is horribly
slow, I have no idea how it performs under Linux. When dealing with Apple
you always need a plan b.

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> BrianM wrote:
> > One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point of
> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
>
> True.
> In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
> Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are there
> to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of consumers.   Or
> our end users.
>
> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers? Consumer
> behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers are
> willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services.
>
> Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system. But
> that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a monopolistic one.
> And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is nothing
> iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't want to
> buy into Apple?s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers can
> choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing
> consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen if
> Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer Apple's strict
> proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it.
>
> Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us jump
> through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple constantly
> changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is it? Or
> is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their consumers?
>
> There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is
> outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you think
> you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell your app
> on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?
>
> The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make little or no
> money, regardless of OS.
> So is it painful to surrender 30% of nothing? ;)
>
> But back to the purpose of this list, aren't we lucky to have LiveCode, a
> development platform that gives us the power to develop for whatever
> platforms make sense for us?
>
> Jim Lambert
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia


From jiml at netrin.com  Mon Aug 10 15:19:39 2020
From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:19:39 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1596988802.310644.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596988802.310644.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <E2EC3EBF-AD78-4C5C-95C6-C8A73E9DD7BD@netrin.com>

Yes, Apple's approach is very proprietary. But it is simply not monopolistic. 
Apple does not have a monopoly on smartphones or smartphone OSes.
What they do have is a very strict proprietary control of their products. Some argue an overly strict control of their products.

I like my Rolls Royce Phantom, but it's so unfair of Rolls Royce not to offer a Phantom with an engine from Volkswagen! ;)

As a consumer or developer if one doesn't like Apple's products and policies simply choose to buy and develop elsewhere. If enough folks do likewise, Apple will soon change as sales plummet. They did this back in the 90s when they were hanging by the thinnest thread and allowed other vendors to sell Mac-compatible hardware.

And yes, our laws may indeed need to be adapted for 21st century realities.

I'm going to stop now and this is recursion! ;)

Jim Lambert


From jerry at jhjensen.com  Mon Aug 10 15:49:19 2020
From: jerry at jhjensen.com (Jerry Jensen)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 12:49:19 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <E2EC3EBF-AD78-4C5C-95C6-C8A73E9DD7BD@netrin.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596988802.310644.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <E2EC3EBF-AD78-4C5C-95C6-C8A73E9DD7BD@netrin.com>
Message-ID: <788FD029-8DC1-4591-83EE-72DF65A47D08@jhjensen.com>

Are you sure? The W12 used in some Bentleys is made by VW, and many years of Phantoms used a V12 of the proper displacement. Of course they don?t talk about mundane stuff like that! <grin>
.Jerry

> On Aug 10, 2020, at 12:19 PM, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I like my Rolls Royce Phantom, but it's so unfair of Rolls Royce not to offer a Phantom with an engine from Volkswagen! ;)




From dochawk at gmail.com  Mon Aug 10 16:45:06 2020
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:45:06 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <788FD029-8DC1-4591-83EE-72DF65A47D08@jhjensen.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596988802.310644.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <E2EC3EBF-AD78-4C5C-95C6-C8A73E9DD7BD@netrin.com>
 <788FD029-8DC1-4591-83EE-72DF65A47D08@jhjensen.com>
Message-ID: <862EBC5E-4A99-4D3B-997C-9704F071A28F@gmail.com>


Jerry jesticulated,


> Are you sure? The W12 used in some Bentleys is made by VW, and many years of Phantoms used a V12 of the proper displacement. Of course they don?t talk about mundane stuff like that! <grin>

But VW now makes ?Bentley", while ?Rolls? is now a BMW brand.

In either case, you don?t get the real thing, and the Rolls Royce 8 cylinder engine is now a bit of history . . .

(And for another odd quirk, Rolls once licensed the GM Turbo 400 transmission for use n both, but made ?improvements? in it.  That worked "so well? that within a couple of years they instead just bought them from GM . . .)

From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Mon Aug 10 17:43:22 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:43:22 -0500
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <862EBC5E-4A99-4D3B-997C-9704F071A28F@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596988802.310644.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <E2EC3EBF-AD78-4C5C-95C6-C8A73E9DD7BD@netrin.com>
 <788FD029-8DC1-4591-83EE-72DF65A47D08@jhjensen.com>
 <862EBC5E-4A99-4D3B-997C-9704F071A28F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49fc906e-ef4f-455c-4792-b6efe1425907@hyperactivesw.com>

I forgot we had a lawyer in our midst. So is Apple a monopoly in the legal sense?


On 8/10/20 3:45 PM, doc hawk via use-livecode wrote:
> 
> Jerry jesticulated,
> 
> 
>> Are you sure? The W12 used in some Bentleys is made by VW, and many years of Phantoms used a V12 of the proper displacement. Of course they don?t talk about mundane stuff like that! <grin>
> 
> But VW now makes ?Bentley", while ?Rolls? is now a BMW brand.
> 
> In either case, you don?t get the real thing, and the Rolls Royce 8 cylinder engine is now a bit of history . . .
> 
> (And for another odd quirk, Rolls once licensed the GM Turbo 400 transmission for use n both, but made ?improvements? in it.  That worked "so well? that within a couple of years they instead just bought them from GM . . .)


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com




From sundown at pacifier.com  Mon Aug 10 18:20:45 2020
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:20:45 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <49fc906e-ef4f-455c-4792-b6efe1425907@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <49fc906e-ef4f-455c-4792-b6efe1425907@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <21F60CF5-ABE8-4D17-9C14-158B28F38939@pacifier.com>

If you sell chocolate chip cookies and the majority of the people buy your
cookies, does that make you a monopoly?

If Ford designs a new car should they be forced to make companies like
Chevy be able to use Chevy parts on the Ford car?

Anyone can make cookies, cars, computers and mobile devices if they have
the desire and money.  Apple does not prevent you or others from making
software or computers.

My personal thought about the 30% fee Apple charges to sell your software
is that it?s a really good deal.  Apple list your product allowing many millions
of people to see and buy it.  They handle all the global sales and taxes plus
provide a way to download it.  If your software is making a lot of money part
of the money you are paying Apple would have been added in taxes due to
you making more profit.  If you have an app that many schools or other types
of business want to buy Apple can make that deal better than most small
developers.  To me that seems cheap compared to the increased sales that
Apple can make with large companies.  But each developer has their own
reasons for using Apple or not.

JB


> On Aug 10, 2020, at 2:45 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?I forgot we had a lawyer in our midst. So is Apple a monopoly in the legal sense?
> 
> 
>> On 8/10/20 3:45 PM, doc hawk via use-livecode wrote:
>> Jerry jesticulated,
>>> Are you sure? The W12 used in some Bentleys is made by VW, and many years of Phantoms used a V12 of the proper displacement. Of course they don?t talk about mundane stuff like that! <grin>
>> But VW now makes ?Bentley", while ?Rolls? is now a BMW brand.
>> In either case, you don?t get the real thing, and the Rolls Royce 8 cylinder engine is now a bit of history . . .
>> (And for another odd quirk, Rolls once licensed the GM Turbo 400 transmission for use n both, but made ?improvements? in it.  That worked "so well? that within a couple of years they instead just bought them from GM . . .)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Aug 10 18:33:35 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:33:35 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <49fc906e-ef4f-455c-4792-b6efe1425907@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596988802.310644.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <E2EC3EBF-AD78-4C5C-95C6-C8A73E9DD7BD@netrin.com>
 <788FD029-8DC1-4591-83EE-72DF65A47D08@jhjensen.com>
 <862EBC5E-4A99-4D3B-997C-9704F071A28F@gmail.com>
 <49fc906e-ef4f-455c-4792-b6efe1425907@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <df9ca6b0-ce5b-3fd9-264f-0ce998c687a3@sonic.net>

On 8/10/20 2:43 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> I forgot we had a lawyer in our midst. So is Apple a monopoly in the 
> legal sense?

Ha! You used "legal" and "sense" in the same sentence!

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From sundown at pacifier.com  Mon Aug 10 18:37:25 2020
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:37:25 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <df9ca6b0-ce5b-3fd9-264f-0ce998c687a3@sonic.net>
References: <df9ca6b0-ce5b-3fd9-264f-0ce998c687a3@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <9AD36B84-05CC-40E7-B05C-2C470D40F7EB@pacifier.com>

Maybe she has never been to court.

JB

> On Aug 10, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?On 8/10/20 2:43 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> I forgot we had a lawyer in our midst. So is Apple a monopoly in the legal sense?
> 
> Ha! You used "legal" and "sense" in the same sentence!
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From jerry at jhjensen.com  Mon Aug 10 20:37:35 2020
From: jerry at jhjensen.com (Jerry Jensen)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:37:35 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <862EBC5E-4A99-4D3B-997C-9704F071A28F@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596988802.310644.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <E2EC3EBF-AD78-4C5C-95C6-C8A73E9DD7BD@netrin.com>
 <788FD029-8DC1-4591-83EE-72DF65A47D08@jhjensen.com>
 <862EBC5E-4A99-4D3B-997C-9704F071A28F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74841990-C83B-45BC-B691-DD561602A9F1@jhjensen.com>

Feeling old. I should have bought the program to know the players.
Good thing I?m not named Terry!

> On Aug 10, 2020, at 1:45 PM, doc hawk via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Jerry jesticulated,
> 
> 
>> Are you sure? The W12 used in some Bentleys is made by VW, and many years of Phantoms used a V12 of the proper displacement. Of course they don?t talk about mundane stuff like that! <grin>
> 
> But VW now makes ?Bentley", while ?Rolls? is now a BMW brand.
> 
> In either case, you don?t get the real thing, and the Rolls Royce 8 cylinder engine is now a bit of history . . .
> 
> (And for another odd quirk, Rolls once licensed the GM Turbo 400 transmission for use n both, but made ?improvements? in it.  That worked "so well? that within a couple of years they instead just bought them from GM . . .)
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Mon Aug 10 22:30:25 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 21:30:25 -0500
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <df9ca6b0-ce5b-3fd9-264f-0ce998c687a3@sonic.net>
References: <mailman.1.1596988802.310644.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <E2EC3EBF-AD78-4C5C-95C6-C8A73E9DD7BD@netrin.com>
 <788FD029-8DC1-4591-83EE-72DF65A47D08@jhjensen.com>
 <862EBC5E-4A99-4D3B-997C-9704F071A28F@gmail.com>
 <49fc906e-ef4f-455c-4792-b6efe1425907@hyperactivesw.com>
 <df9ca6b0-ce5b-3fd9-264f-0ce998c687a3@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <173db5ac1e8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

Auto-complete made me do it.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On August 10, 2020 5:35:40 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 8/10/20 2:43 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> I forgot we had a lawyer in our midst. So is Apple a monopoly in the
>> legal sense?
>
> Ha! You used "legal" and "sense" in the same sentence!
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From engleerica at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 10 22:31:54 2020
From: engleerica at yahoo.com (Eric A. Engle)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 02:31:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: livecode in terminal? (linux)
References: <1823941167.54900.1597113114851.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1823941167.54900.1597113114851@mail.yahoo.com>

is?there?any?way?to?invoke?the?livecode?engine?from?the?terminal?in?linux?


suppose?e.g.?i?wanted?to?run?"put?7"?or?"put?3?+?2"?from?xterm?or?such.?Is?that?possible??If?so,?how?

Or?e.g.?running?a?stack?or?script?from?the?terminal??If?so,?how?



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Aug 10 23:02:15 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:02:15 -0700
Subject: livecode in terminal? (linux)
In-Reply-To: <1823941167.54900.1597113114851@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1823941167.54900.1597113114851.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1823941167.54900.1597113114851@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <17439fc6-912b-5973-58fa-14615e1be9d7@sonic.net>

On 8/10/20 7:31 PM, Eric A. Engle via use-livecode wrote:
> is?there?any?way?to?invoke?the?livecode?engine?from?the?terminal?in?linux?
> 
> 
> suppose?e.g.?i?wanted?to?run?"put?7"?or?"put?3?+?2"?from?xterm?or?such.?Is?that?possible??If?so,?how?
> 
> Or?e.g.?running?a?stack?or?script?from?the?terminal??If?so,?how?

Yep. I use the server build that way. Who needs a GUI?
Just invoke it from the command line, i.e.

./livecode-community-server test.lc

where test.lc is

<?lc
put "hello world" & cr
put "3+2=" && 3+2
?>

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From paul at researchware.com  Wed Aug 12 11:39:47 2020
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:39:47 -0400
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
Message-ID: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b@researchware.com>

I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone for 
(.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or 
functions in my scripts

The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals" 
folder with tsNet dll in it.

Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew it 
once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.

Thank you in advance.



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Aug 12 11:59:09 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:59:09 -0400
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
In-Reply-To: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b@researchware.com>
References: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>

Paul,

Disable: 
dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

Enable: 
dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:40 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Paul Dupuis
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?

I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone for
(.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or functions
in my scripts

The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals" 
folder with tsNet dll in it.

Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew it
once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.

Thank you in advance.

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From thepete10 at bellsouth.net  Wed Aug 12 12:09:07 2020
From: thepete10 at bellsouth.net (thepete10)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:09:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 203, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1597248001.100122.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1597248001.100122.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <264647711.683518.1597248547453@mail.yahoo.com>

 stop your malicious emails to this email address

    On Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 12:00:21 PM EDT, <use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com> wrote:  
 
 Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to
??? use-livecode at lists.runrev.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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Today's Topics:

? 1. Building a Windows standalone without tsNet? (Paul Dupuis)
? 2. RE: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet? (Ralph DiMola)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:39:47 -0400
From: Paul Dupuis <paul at researchware.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
Message-ID: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b at researchware.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone for 
(.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or 
functions in my scripts

The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals" 
folder with tsNet dll in it.

Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew it 
once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.

Thank you in advance.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:59:09 -0400
From: "Ralph DiMola" <rdimola at evergreeninfo.net>
To: "'How to use LiveCode'" <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Subject: RE: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
Message-ID: <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii"

Paul,

Disable: 
dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

Enable: 
dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:40 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Paul Dupuis
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?

I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone for
(.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or functions
in my scripts

The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals" 
folder with tsNet dll in it.

Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew it
once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.

Thank you in advance.

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

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http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


------------------------------

End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 203, Issue 11
*********************************************
  

From paul at researchware.com  Wed Aug 12 12:39:20 2020
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:39:20 -0400
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
In-Reply-To: <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>
References: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b@researchware.com>
 <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>
Message-ID: <f52e47ef-c31b-cec1-f883-f308faaa74f5@researchware.com>

On 8/12/2020 11:59 AM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Disable:
> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

If I execute this in the message box in the IDE does that then prevent 
the Standalone builder from including it? Or do I need to execute this 
in the startup of the Standalone itself?


>
> Enable:
> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:40 AM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Paul Dupuis
> Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
>
> I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone for
> (.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or functions
> in my scripts
>
> The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals"
> folder with tsNet dll in it.
>
> Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew it
> once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Aug 12 13:18:36 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:18:36 -0400
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
In-Reply-To: <f52e47ef-c31b-cec1-f883-f308faaa74f5@researchware.com>
References: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b@researchware.com>
 <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>
 <f52e47ef-c31b-cec1-f883-f308faaa74f5@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <004f01d670cc$a0249680$e06dc380$@net>

Paul,

Sorry, I don't know. It does disable tsNet but I don't know if the
standalone builder respects it when automatically adding required
inclusions.  What you may have to do is use the manual inclusions pane of
the standalone options and don't include tsNet. Then you might/might not
have to do (dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl) in the
standalone's preopenstack handler.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 12:39 PM
To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Cc: Paul Dupuis
Subject: Re: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?

On 8/12/2020 11:59 AM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Disable:
> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

If I execute this in the message box in the IDE does that then prevent the
Standalone builder from including it? Or do I need to execute this in the
startup of the Standalone itself?


>
> Enable:
> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On 
> Behalf Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:40 AM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Paul Dupuis
> Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
>
> I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone 
> for (.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or 
> functions in my scripts
>
> The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals"
> folder with tsNet dll in it.
>
> Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew 
> it once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Wed Aug 12 13:21:19 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:21:19 +0200
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
In-Reply-To: <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>
References: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b@researchware.com>
 <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>
Message-ID: <7117C719-9EC4-42F5-9462-9FAEA2485778@m-r-d.de>


As Ralph wrote,

execute this in message box
> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

and then build your standalone.


-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 12.08.2020 um 17:59 schrieb Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Disable: 
> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
> 
> Enable: 
> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:40 AM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Paul Dupuis
> Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
> 
> I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone for
> (.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or functions
> in my scripts
> 
> The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals" 
> folder with tsNet dll in it.
> 
> Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew it
> once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.
> 
> Thank you in advance.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 13:29:47 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 18:29:47 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
Message-ID: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Why is this still an issue? I find it so hard putting layers in the right
order. It just gets me down when I have fast turnaround jobs that are held
up because of STUPID frikin issues like this. Over and over again....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakyg8bu8bdamhn/LayerControl.mov?dl=0

LC would be brilliant if it wasn't so crap all the time.

Sean Cole

*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 13:42:01 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 18:42:01 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>

And when you are in a group editing mode, the layers in the Project Browser
are messed up beyond use. HOW?? Why has this STILL not been fixed since
v6!!!! I'm just tired of asking. I'm stressed! Up against a deadline
(Again). No budget to pay the ridiculous fees LC ask. And absolutely no way
out... again! It blows my mind how I keep putting myself in this situation
for LC to KEEP letting me down because of stupid dumb ass issues that don't
get fixed!

Frustrated.

Sean

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:29, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Why is this still an issue? I find it so hard putting layers in the right
> order. It just gets me down when I have fast turnaround jobs that are held
> up because of STUPID frikin issues like this. Over and over again....
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakyg8bu8bdamhn/LayerControl.mov?dl=0
>
> LC would be brilliant if it wasn't so crap all the time.
>
> Sean Cole
>
> *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
>


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Wed Aug 12 13:45:56 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:45:56 +0200
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>

Sean,

my answer will not solve your problems with the Project Browser...
but did you already try Geoff Canyons Navigator

https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator <https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/693e8792-fedc-482a-9940-e98f47b6ee1a>
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kz3zqi4botzglgq/navigator.zip?dl=1 <https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/9596c7b6-a84d-40ae-96c9-b3578d222b9f>

Navigator allows also to "relayer" objects by dragging and there it even works.

HTH

Regards,

-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 12.08.2020 um 19:42 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> And when you are in a group editing mode, the layers in the Project Browser
> are messed up beyond use. HOW?? Why has this STILL not been fixed since
> v6!!!! I'm just tired of asking. I'm stressed! Up against a deadline
> (Again). No budget to pay the ridiculous fees LC ask. And absolutely no way
> out... again! It blows my mind how I keep putting myself in this situation
> for LC to KEEP letting me down because of stupid dumb ass issues that don't
> get fixed!
> 
> Frustrated.
> 
> Sean
> 
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:29, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Why is this still an issue? I find it so hard putting layers in the right
>> order. It just gets me down when I have fast turnaround jobs that are held
>> up because of STUPID frikin issues like this. Over and over again....
>> 
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakyg8bu8bdamhn/LayerControl.mov?dl=0
>> 
>> LC would be brilliant if it wasn't so crap all the time.
>> 
>> Sean Cole
>> 
>> *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From paul at researchware.com  Wed Aug 12 14:02:20 2020
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:02:20 -0400
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
In-Reply-To: <7117C719-9EC4-42F5-9462-9FAEA2485778@m-r-d.de>
References: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b@researchware.com>
 <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>
 <7117C719-9EC4-42F5-9462-9FAEA2485778@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <b7b8cc2a-d7bd-f313-e906-70c6a4c0848b@researchware.com>

Thank you Matthias and Ralph.

In general, I am more of a Windows person than a macOS person, but one 
thing I really wish Windows would adopt is .exe folder, like macOS .app 
folders so that things like the Externals folder and anything else the 
app needed could app "appear" to be inside the .EXE


On 8/12/2020 1:21 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote:
> As Ralph wrote,
>
> execute this in message box
>> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
> and then build your standalone.
>
>
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
>
>> Am 12.08.2020 um 17:59 schrieb Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Disable:
>> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>>
>> Enable:
>> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>>
>> Ralph DiMola
>> IT Director
>> Evergreen Information Services
>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
>> Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:40 AM
>> To: How to use LiveCode
>> Cc: Paul Dupuis
>> Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
>>
>> I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone for
>> (.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or functions
>> in my scripts
>>
>> The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals"
>> folder with tsNet dll in it.
>>
>> Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew it
>> once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.
>>
>> Thank you in advance.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From paul at researchware.com  Wed Aug 12 14:31:37 2020
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:31:37 -0400
Subject: More Standalone Building Weirdness...
Message-ID: <fc052efc-13d8-476a-f120-b16c6f56124e@researchware.com>

I have a stack that when I build into a Windows Standalone (only 
Windows) in LC 9.6.0 under Windows, the dialog that says "Attaching 
Engine..." never finishes.

The Standalone gets built and runs properly, but the "Attaching 
engine..." dialog in the building process never finishes (waiting over 
an hour for a tiny stack) and I have to bring up teh Task Manager and 
force the LiveCode app to exit.

Anyone seen anything like this? Have any idea what causes it?

Since the app does get built and runs fine, and I am under a deadline, I 
don't really have time to troubleshoot it. It is easier to just force LC 
to exit, but if someone has seen this and knows the cause, please let me 
know.

Thanks in advance.



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 14:46:33 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:46:33 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>
References: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks,

But why does Project Browser STILL NOT WORK?

NO MORE WORKAROUNDS! THIS IS CRAP!@

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:45, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Sean,
>
> my answer will not solve your problems with the Project Browser...
> but did you already try Geoff Canyons Navigator
>
> https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator <
> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/693e8792-fedc-482a-9940-e98f47b6ee1a
> >
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kz3zqi4botzglgq/navigator.zip?dl=1 <
> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/9596c7b6-a84d-40ae-96c9-b3578d222b9f
> >
>
> Navigator allows also to "relayer" objects by dragging and there it even
> works.
>
> HTH
>
> Regards,
>
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
>
> > Am 12.08.2020 um 19:42 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > And when you are in a group editing mode, the layers in the Project
> Browser
> > are messed up beyond use. HOW?? Why has this STILL not been fixed since
> > v6!!!! I'm just tired of asking. I'm stressed! Up against a deadline
> > (Again). No budget to pay the ridiculous fees LC ask. And absolutely no
> way
> > out... again! It blows my mind how I keep putting myself in this
> situation
> > for LC to KEEP letting me down because of stupid dumb ass issues that
> don't
> > get fixed!
> >
> > Frustrated.
> >
> > Sean
> >
> > On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:29, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Why is this still an issue? I find it so hard putting layers in the
> right
> >> order. It just gets me down when I have fast turnaround jobs that are
> held
> >> up because of STUPID frikin issues like this. Over and over again....
> >>
> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakyg8bu8bdamhn/LayerControl.mov?dl=0
> >>
> >> LC would be brilliant if it wasn't so crap all the time.
> >>
> >> Sean Cole
> >>
> >> *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From brian at milby7.com  Wed Aug 12 14:48:57 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:48:57 -0400
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>

Which version of LC?  I just did a brief test and it worked mostly as expected on 9.6/Win10.  Only thing that I couldn?t do was move a button between 2 groups (it would drop into one).  I had to move it above the group and then move the group.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 12, 2020, at 2:45 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Thanks,
> 
> But why does Project Browser STILL NOT WORK?
> 
> NO MORE WORKAROUNDS! THIS IS CRAP!@
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> 
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:45, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Sean,
>> 
>> my answer will not solve your problems with the Project Browser...
>> but did you already try Geoff Canyons Navigator
>> 
>> https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator <
>> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/693e8792-fedc-482a-9940-e98f47b6ee1a
>>> 
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kz3zqi4botzglgq/navigator.zip?dl=1 <
>> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/9596c7b6-a84d-40ae-96c9-b3578d222b9f
>>> 
>> 
>> Navigator allows also to "relayer" objects by dragging and there it even
>> works.
>> 
>> HTH
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> -
>> Matthias Rebbe
>> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
>> 
>>> Am 12.08.2020 um 19:42 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>> 
>>> And when you are in a group editing mode, the layers in the Project
>> Browser
>>> are messed up beyond use. HOW?? Why has this STILL not been fixed since
>>> v6!!!! I'm just tired of asking. I'm stressed! Up against a deadline
>>> (Again). No budget to pay the ridiculous fees LC ask. And absolutely no
>> way
>>> out... again! It blows my mind how I keep putting myself in this
>> situation
>>> for LC to KEEP letting me down because of stupid dumb ass issues that
>> don't
>>> get fixed!
>>> 
>>> Frustrated.
>>> 
>>> Sean
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:29, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> Why is this still an issue? I find it so hard putting layers in the
>> right
>>>> order. It just gets me down when I have fast turnaround jobs that are
>> held
>>>> up because of STUPID frikin issues like this. Over and over again....
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakyg8bu8bdamhn/LayerControl.mov?dl=0
>>>> 
>>>> LC would be brilliant if it wasn't so crap all the time.
>>>> 
>>>> Sean Cole
>>>> 
>>>> *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 14:57:40 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:57:40 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>
References: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSQ737fN41=M-GwVLoYomG773CnUMu_HxgFw9V95hs5ZvA@mail.gmail.com>

@Matthias Rebbe <matthias at m-r-d.de>

Were are just replacing issues with new issues. Just looked at the github
for 'Navigator' only to see a heap of unresolved issues there too!
https://github.com/gcanyon/navigator/issues

This seriously sucks!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital*

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:45, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Sean,
>
> my answer will not solve your problems with the Project Browser...
> but did you already try Geoff Canyons Navigator
>
> https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator <
> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/693e8792-fedc-482a-9940-e98f47b6ee1a
> >
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kz3zqi4botzglgq/navigator.zip?dl=1 <
> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/9596c7b6-a84d-40ae-96c9-b3578d222b9f
> >
>
> Navigator allows also to "relayer" objects by dragging and there it even
> works.
>
> HTH
>
> Regards,
>
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
>
> > Am 12.08.2020 um 19:42 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > And when you are in a group editing mode, the layers in the Project
> Browser
> > are messed up beyond use. HOW?? Why has this STILL not been fixed since
> > v6!!!! I'm just tired of asking. I'm stressed! Up against a deadline
> > (Again). No budget to pay the ridiculous fees LC ask. And absolutely no
> way
> > out... again! It blows my mind how I keep putting myself in this
> situation
> > for LC to KEEP letting me down because of stupid dumb ass issues that
> don't
> > get fixed!
> >
> > Frustrated.
> >
> > Sean
> >
> > On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:29, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Why is this still an issue? I find it so hard putting layers in the
> right
> >> order. It just gets me down when I have fast turnaround jobs that are
> held
> >> up because of STUPID frikin issues like this. Over and over again....
> >>
> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakyg8bu8bdamhn/LayerControl.mov?dl=0
> >>
> >> LC would be brilliant if it wasn't so crap all the time.
> >>
> >> Sean Cole
> >>
> >> *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 14:58:56 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:58:56 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>

Watch the video, Brian!

I'm on a Mac. I'm sure everything is fine and dandy on windoze and that it
has zero bugs!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital*

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 19:48, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Which version of LC?  I just did a brief test and it worked mostly as
> expected on 9.6/Win10.  Only thing that I couldn?t do was move a button
> between 2 groups (it would drop into one).  I had to move it above the
> group and then move the group.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 12, 2020, at 2:45 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?Thanks,
> >
> > But why does Project Browser STILL NOT WORK?
> >
> > NO MORE WORKAROUNDS! THIS IS CRAP!@
> >
> > Sean Cole
> > *Pi Digital *
> >
> >> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:45, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Sean,
> >>
> >> my answer will not solve your problems with the Project Browser...
> >> but did you already try Geoff Canyons Navigator
> >>
> >> https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator <
> >>
> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/693e8792-fedc-482a-9940-e98f47b6ee1a
> >>>
> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kz3zqi4botzglgq/navigator.zip?dl=1 <
> >>
> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/9596c7b6-a84d-40ae-96c9-b3578d222b9f
> >>>
> >>
> >> Navigator allows also to "relayer" objects by dragging and there it even
> >> works.
> >>
> >> HTH
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> -
> >> Matthias Rebbe
> >> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
> >>
> >>> Am 12.08.2020 um 19:42 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >>>
> >>> And when you are in a group editing mode, the layers in the Project
> >> Browser
> >>> are messed up beyond use. HOW?? Why has this STILL not been fixed since
> >>> v6!!!! I'm just tired of asking. I'm stressed! Up against a deadline
> >>> (Again). No budget to pay the ridiculous fees LC ask. And absolutely no
> >> way
> >>> out... again! It blows my mind how I keep putting myself in this
> >> situation
> >>> for LC to KEEP letting me down because of stupid dumb ass issues that
> >> don't
> >>> get fixed!
> >>>
> >>> Frustrated.
> >>>
> >>> Sean
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:29, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> Why is this still an issue? I find it so hard putting layers in the
> >> right
> >>>> order. It just gets me down when I have fast turnaround jobs that are
> >> held
> >>>> up because of STUPID frikin issues like this. Over and over again....
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakyg8bu8bdamhn/LayerControl.mov?dl=0
> >>>>
> >>>> LC would be brilliant if it wasn't so crap all the time.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sean Cole
> >>>>
> >>>> *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Aug 12 15:51:44 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:51:44 -0500
Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
In-Reply-To: <7117C719-9EC4-42F5-9462-9FAEA2485778@m-r-d.de>
References: <0a9173b9-97bf-9061-a840-d7650c73053b@researchware.com>
 <003f01d670c1$8690e490$93b2adb0$@net>
 <7117C719-9EC4-42F5-9462-9FAEA2485778@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <ce72369c-9f2d-7e29-afe9-17b854294aae@hyperactivesw.com>

Did you try just removing the external and library from the standalone inclusions?

In standalone settings, General pane, choose "Select inclusions for the standalone 
application". In the Inclusions pane, uncheck TSNet and Internet Library.


On 8/12/20 12:21 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote:
> 
> As Ralph wrote,
> 
> execute this in message box
>> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
> 
> and then build your standalone.
> 
> 
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
> 
>> Am 12.08.2020 um 17:59 schrieb Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Disable:
>> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>>
>> Enable:
>> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>>
>> Ralph DiMola
>> IT Director
>> Evergreen Information Services
>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
>> Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:40 AM
>> To: How to use LiveCode
>> Cc: Paul Dupuis
>> Subject: Building a Windows standalone without tsNet?
>>
>> I have a very simple stack that I want to build a Windows standalone for
>> (.exe). I do not use any internet/networking related commands or functions
>> in my scripts
>>
>> The standalone builder for LC9.6.0 insists on including the "Externals"
>> folder with tsNet dll in it.
>>
>> Can some one remind me how I tell the LC not to include tsNet? I knew it
>> once, have forgotten, and can't find in anywhere in any documentation.
>>
>> Thank you in advance.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Aug 12 15:57:55 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:57:55 -0500
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
 <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>

Double-click the control with the edit tool. Go to the Position pane. Type in the layer number.

I don't use the Project Browser much. I have no issues with the Application Browser, except 
that it needs a manual refresh occasionally. Changing layers requires that. To manually refresh 
the card display, right-click anywhere in the right-side pane and choose "Refresh".

On 8/12/20 1:58 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> Watch the video, Brian!
> 
> I'm on a Mac. I'm sure everything is fine and dandy on windoze and that it
> has zero bugs!
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital*


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 16:58:07 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 21:58:07 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
 <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

Tried that too. Unfortunately, if it has groups surrounding it and it
itself is in a group it still effs the eff up! It either puts it into a
group I didn't want it in or it chucks it out of one I do want it in.

And, just because you don't use it doesn't mean no one else should!
revApplicationOverview shouldn't need to be used anymore since v6!!! It got
REPLACED! By PB! And besides, just trying again and AppOverview has the
same issue with groups and effing with the layout. 2020!! No hover cars I
can accept but not being able to move a few layers into place is just
damned ridiculous. More to the point, that NO ONE HAS FIXED IT IN 6 YEARS!!
FFS!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 20:57, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Double-click the control with the edit tool. Go to the Position pane. Type
> in the layer number.
>
> I don't use the Project Browser much. I have no issues with the
> Application Browser, except
> that it needs a manual refresh occasionally. Changing layers requires
> that. To manually refresh
> the card display, right-click anywhere in the right-side pane and choose
> "Refresh".
>
> On 8/12/20 1:58 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> > Watch the video, Brian!
> >
> > I'm on a Mac. I'm sure everything is fine and dandy on windoze and that
> it
> > has zero bugs!
> >
> > Sean Cole
> > *Pi Digital*
>
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 17:11:38 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:11:38 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
 <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSQh=U742BxRvSdeDvoK29y+bM0eVFx5gXawC+mgMFay-Q@mail.gmail.com>

This is the results in AppOverview.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mxr0xkp2ucv5082/AppOverFail.mov?dl=0

In this instance, it's got itself locked in but I cannot see what is
preventing it from moving.

Sean

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 21:58, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Tried that too. Unfortunately, if it has groups surrounding it and it
> itself is in a group it still effs the eff up! It either puts it into a
> group I didn't want it in or it chucks it out of one I do want it in.
>
> And, just because you don't use it doesn't mean no one else should!
> revApplicationOverview shouldn't need to be used anymore since v6!!! It got
> REPLACED! By PB! And besides, just trying again and AppOverview has the
> same issue with groups and effing with the layout. 2020!! No hover cars I
> can accept but not being able to move a few layers into place is just
> damned ridiculous. More to the point, that NO ONE HAS FIXED IT IN 6 YEARS!!
> FFS!
>
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
>
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 20:57, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Double-click the control with the edit tool. Go to the Position pane.
>> Type in the layer number.
>>
>> I don't use the Project Browser much. I have no issues with the
>> Application Browser, except
>> that it needs a manual refresh occasionally. Changing layers requires
>> that. To manually refresh
>> the card display, right-click anywhere in the right-side pane and choose
>> "Refresh".
>>
>> On 8/12/20 1:58 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>> > Watch the video, Brian!
>> >
>> > I'm on a Mac. I'm sure everything is fine and dandy on windoze and that
>> it
>> > has zero bugs!
>> >
>> > Sean Cole
>> > *Pi Digital*
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Aug 12 17:16:23 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:16:23 -0500
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
 <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6df57039-4b68-4894-c180-aae3b8899f7c@hyperactivesw.com>

That's just how it works. You need to move it out of the enclosing group (try setting it to 
layer 1,) then move it to its new position. Brian mentioned that. Alternately, look at relayer 
and relayerGroupedControls in the dictionary.

On 8/12/20 3:58 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Tried that too. Unfortunately, if it has groups surrounding it and it
> itself is in a group it still effs the eff up! It either puts it into a
> group I didn't want it in or it chucks it out of one I do want it in.
> 
> And, just because you don't use it doesn't mean no one else should!
> revApplicationOverview shouldn't need to be used anymore since v6!!! It got
> REPLACED! By PB! And besides, just trying again and AppOverview has the
> same issue with groups and effing with the layout. 2020!! No hover cars I
> can accept but not being able to move a few layers into place is just
> damned ridiculous. More to the point, that NO ONE HAS FIXED IT IN 6 YEARS!!
> FFS!
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> 
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 20:57, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Double-click the control with the edit tool. Go to the Position pane. Type
>> in the layer number.
>>
>> I don't use the Project Browser much. I have no issues with the
>> Application Browser, except
>> that it needs a manual refresh occasionally. Changing layers requires
>> that. To manually refresh
>> the card display, right-click anywhere in the right-side pane and choose
>> "Refresh".
>>
>> On 8/12/20 1:58 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Watch the video, Brian!
>>>
>>> I'm on a Mac. I'm sure everything is fine and dandy on windoze and that
>> it
>>> has zero bugs!
>>>
>>> Sean Cole
>>> *Pi Digital*
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Aug 12 17:22:33 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:22:33 -0500
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSQh=U742BxRvSdeDvoK29y+bM0eVFx5gXawC+mgMFay-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
 <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQh=U742BxRvSdeDvoK29y+bM0eVFx5gXawC+mgMFay-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855e8c8a-2865-ca25-5e91-be859808d799@hyperactivesw.com>

As mentioned, you need to refresh the page view. Right-click the card content pane and choose 
Refresh.

My other comment is probably wrong. You should be able to set the target group to the same 
layer as another group, and the target will assume the other group's layer, and the other group 
will move down.


On 8/12/20 4:11 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> This is the results in AppOverview.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mxr0xkp2ucv5082/AppOverFail.mov?dl=0
> 
> In this instance, it's got itself locked in but I cannot see what is
> preventing it from moving.
> 
> Sean
> 
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 21:58, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>>
>> Tried that too. Unfortunately, if it has groups surrounding it and it
>> itself is in a group it still effs the eff up! It either puts it into a
>> group I didn't want it in or it chucks it out of one I do want it in.
>>
>> And, just because you don't use it doesn't mean no one else should!
>> revApplicationOverview shouldn't need to be used anymore since v6!!! It got
>> REPLACED! By PB! And besides, just trying again and AppOverview has the
>> same issue with groups and effing with the layout. 2020!! No hover cars I
>> can accept but not being able to move a few layers into place is just
>> damned ridiculous. More to the point, that NO ONE HAS FIXED IT IN 6 YEARS!!
>> FFS!
>>
>> Sean Cole
>> *Pi Digital *
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 20:57, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Double-click the control with the edit tool. Go to the Position pane.
>>> Type in the layer number.
>>>
>>> I don't use the Project Browser much. I have no issues with the
>>> Application Browser, except
>>> that it needs a manual refresh occasionally. Changing layers requires
>>> that. To manually refresh
>>> the card display, right-click anywhere in the right-side pane and choose
>>> "Refresh".
>>>
>>> On 8/12/20 1:58 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>>>> Watch the video, Brian!
>>>>
>>>> I'm on a Mac. I'm sure everything is fine and dandy on windoze and that
>>> it
>>>> has zero bugs!
>>>>
>>>> Sean Cole
>>>> *Pi Digital*
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From dochawk at gmail.com  Wed Aug 12 19:36:45 2020
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:36:45 -0700
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>
 <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0BA224F9-1A9D-42D1-92D7-C2D7D5C24014@gmail.com>


sean sputtered,

>But why does Project Browser STILL NOT WORK?


The project browser is a form of penance for your sins.

I find facing it somewhere between grabbing a boiling pan and puncturing an eardrum with an ice pick . . .


I still don?t use it, and stick with the old stack browser . . .

? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 20:04:27 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:04:27 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <6df57039-4b68-4894-c180-aae3b8899f7c@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
 <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <6df57039-4b68-4894-c180-aae3b8899f7c@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTLaQ-yY1xh3-yAp=bYk80W4Zfq_n3a-7S8beSwrRC+ow@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 22:16, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> That's just how it works.
>


   1. Except it doesn't work - even with refresh :
   https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfv95iuatd4d4y5/AppOverFail2.mov?dl=0
   2. How it works is wrong! Because it is DUMB and NOT how ALL other
   software deals with layers. Bar none. Including LC's close competitors. It
   should work EXACTLY like a file system or any other folder system. I've
   coded this stuff for my own projects so why the heck is it so hard for
   those writing the engine? I don't do C and that's where the layering system
   is going wrong.
   3. Assuming it did 'work', if the last item is a group with ctrls and I
   drag below or used the next layer number below it will ALWAYS put it INTO
   the group.

It's wrong and it's just wasting my time, again, that I don't have with a
tv broadcast deadline of Friday.

You've obviously got so used to HAVING to work around these things you
forget how they SHOULD work. Not just in my opinion but by general
expectation from the norm outside of LC.

What are LC doing with our subscription and donation money? Looking at the
pull requests on github, not much! I fear the very worst!


From scott at elementarysoftware.com  Wed Aug 12 22:01:19 2020
From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (scott at elementarysoftware.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:01:19 -0700
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTLaQ-yY1xh3-yAp=bYk80W4Zfq_n3a-7S8beSwrRC+ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
 <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <6df57039-4b68-4894-c180-aae3b8899f7c@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSTLaQ-yY1xh3-yAp=bYk80W4Zfq_n3a-7S8beSwrRC+ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A5F55EE3-A842-49A3-B72E-717AB34EC8E4@elementarysoftware.com>

When I need to move something between nested groups I often (after making a backup) cut what I want to move and then edit the group I want to move it to so that I can paste into it.

I?m not suggesting this as something others should adopt, just pointing out that there seems to be a number of ways people deal with moving groups between nested groups. This seems to make it clear that someone who is new to Livecode would likely stumble when encountering this seemingly straightforward task.

?
Scott Morrow

Elementary Software
(Now with 20% less chalk dust!)
web       https://elementarysoftware.com/
email     scott at elementarysoftware.com
------------------------------------------------------
> On Aug 12, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 22:16, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> That's just how it works.
>> 
> 
> 
>   1. Except it doesn't work - even with refresh :
>   https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfv95iuatd4d4y5/AppOverFail2.mov?dl=0
>   2. How it works is wrong! Because it is DUMB and NOT how ALL other
>   software deals with layers. Bar none. Including LC's close competitors. It
>   should work EXACTLY like a file system or any other folder system. I've
>   coded this stuff for my own projects so why the heck is it so hard for
>   those writing the engine? I don't do C and that's where the layering system
>   is going wrong.
>   3. Assuming it did 'work', if the last item is a group with ctrls and I
>   drag below or used the next layer number below it will ALWAYS put it INTO
>   the group.
> 
> It's wrong and it's just wasting my time, again, that I don't have with a
> tv broadcast deadline of Friday.
> 
> You've obviously got so used to HAVING to work around these things you
> forget how they SHOULD work. Not just in my opinion but by general
> expectation from the norm outside of LC.
> 
> What are LC doing with our subscription and donation money? Looking at the
> pull requests on github, not much! I fear the very worst!
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 22:46:29 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 03:46:29 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <A5F55EE3-A842-49A3-B72E-717AB34EC8E4@elementarysoftware.com>
References: <CABRqQSTXUKu9oteFH2GvAajmcK8PRbNuReALxUh8c6q2Ge1mkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <82761437-91EE-4D77-9745-6447F6AC18FD@milby7.com>
 <CABRqQSTWMZsS7aR-xAxKmrt7sJRk1ZTyYHXPj3r=-bANJy7M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <634ef32b-43c6-67cd-7fda-88880e19cfc7@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSQZMbz1e0S5yn2SYCjUZ__OJUgQM2XORbyvY7v3AP3B6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <6df57039-4b68-4894-c180-aae3b8899f7c@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSTLaQ-yY1xh3-yAp=bYk80W4Zfq_n3a-7S8beSwrRC+ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <A5F55EE3-A842-49A3-B72E-717AB34EC8E4@elementarysoftware.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSQBTHpsidnuE=S_ECT+WaNKVgH8eoBA2DK2+59YvToV2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, Just more workarounds for something that should have been fixed and
sorted 5 or 6 years ago when it was first brought to light and continually
since.

Stressed and tired. 4am nearly having worked solid 16hrs today. Up again in
4hrs to carry on.
Sean

On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 03:01, scott--- via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> When I need to move something between nested groups I often (after making
> a backup) cut what I want to move and then edit the group I want to move it
> to so that I can paste into it.
>
> I?m not suggesting this as something others should adopt, just pointing
> out that there seems to be a number of ways people deal with moving groups
> between nested groups. This seems to make it clear that someone who is new
> to Livecode would likely stumble when encountering this seemingly
> straightforward task.
>
> ?
> Scott Morrow
>
> Elementary Software
> (Now with 20% less chalk dust!)
> web       https://elementarysoftware.com/
> email     scott at elementarysoftware.com
> ------------------------------------------------------
> > On Aug 12, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 22:16, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That's just how it works.
> >>
> >
> >
> >   1. Except it doesn't work - even with refresh :
> >   https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfv95iuatd4d4y5/AppOverFail2.mov?dl=0
> >   2. How it works is wrong! Because it is DUMB and NOT how ALL other
> >   software deals with layers. Bar none. Including LC's close
> competitors. It
> >   should work EXACTLY like a file system or any other folder system. I've
> >   coded this stuff for my own projects so why the heck is it so hard for
> >   those writing the engine? I don't do C and that's where the layering
> system
> >   is going wrong.
> >   3. Assuming it did 'work', if the last item is a group with ctrls and I
> >   drag below or used the next layer number below it will ALWAYS put it
> INTO
> >   the group.
> >
> > It's wrong and it's just wasting my time, again, that I don't have with a
> > tv broadcast deadline of Friday.
> >
> > You've obviously got so used to HAVING to work around these things you
> > forget how they SHOULD work. Not just in my opinion but by general
> > expectation from the norm outside of LC.
> >
> > What are LC doing with our subscription and donation money? Looking at
> the
> > pull requests on github, not much! I fear the very worst!
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From brian at milby7.com  Wed Aug 12 22:49:45 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:49:45 -0400
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTLaQ-yY1xh3-yAp=bYk80W4Zfq_n3a-7S8beSwrRC+ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTLaQ-yY1xh3-yAp=bYk80W4Zfq_n3a-7S8beSwrRC+ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>

The reason I asked about version and OS is because I watched the video and attempted to replicate the behavior that was shown.  I could not do so.  I?ve now also tried on my Mac (9.6.0) and am unable to have it do what your video shows.

I was always able to drag the control out of the enclosing group to be the first item in the enclosing parent group.  This is the same action I saw was not working in the video.

If you drag a control below an expanded group, it goes in the group.  If you drag a control below a collapsed group, it snaps back on Mac most of the time (looks to depend on the state of relayergroupedcontrols).

The issue that you are confronting (in your discussion, not the video) is that the layer is an ordinal and does not convey any information about group membership alone.  The way things are handled make sense when you consider that implementation detail.  If an object is at layer 8 but outside the group above (5-7) and you set the layer to 8 with relayergroupedcontrols true then it will move to be inside the above group.  If you want to move the object at layer 9 up to 8 and stay outside of the above group, you have to actually move the layer 8 control down instead.

Sent from my iPhone

>>> On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:03 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> ?On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 22:16, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> That's just how it works.
> 
> 
> 1. Except it doesn't work - even with refresh :
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfv95iuatd4d4y5/AppOverFail2.mov?dl=0
> 2. How it works is wrong! Because it is DUMB and NOT how ALL other
> software deals with layers. Bar none. Including LC's close competitors. It
> should work EXACTLY like a file system or any other folder system. I've
> coded this stuff for my own projects so why the heck is it so hard for
> those writing the engine? I don't do C and that's where the layering system
> is going wrong.
> 3. Assuming it did 'work', if the last item is a group with ctrls and I
> drag below or used the next layer number below it will ALWAYS put it INTO
> the group.
> 
> It's wrong and it's just wasting my time, again, that I don't have with a
> tv broadcast deadline of Friday.
> 
> You've obviously got so used to HAVING to work around these things you
> forget how they SHOULD work. Not just in my opinion but by general
> expectation from the norm outside of LC.
> 
> What are LC doing with our subscription and donation money? Looking at the
> pull requests on github, not much! I fear the very worst!
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Aug 12 23:16:07 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 04:16:07 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>

Brian

I have no clue of what you are talking about here. Bewildered! 

Why do I have the same discussion with you people. It should be simple. It is not. This is not the way it should work just because it is the way it does work. It is impossible to put things where you want them in any simple form. The fact you cannot replicate it using a simple stack does not take from the fact I am having the replicatable Effect in my complicated working stack. As demonstrated several times in video. Sheesh, what does it take to get through to you people?? It?s broken. Take my word for it! 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd


eMail Ts & Cs


> On 13 Aug 2020, at 03:50, Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> The issue that you are confronting (in your discussion, not the video) is that the layer is an ordinal and does not convey any information about group membership alone


From dvglasgow at gmail.com  Thu Aug 13 07:52:17 2020
From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:52:17 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>



> On 13 Aug 2020, at 4:16 am, Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Why do I have the same discussion with you people

Hi Sean, There are no ?you people?, there is only us, including you.  

I can?t help you with your IDE problem, but I can see that others are trying hard to be helpful, and that you are running on empty.  

Maybe get some sleep and revisit the issue when you are feeling refreshed?

Cheers,

David G

From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Thu Aug 13 08:46:50 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 08:46:50 -0400
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>

When accessing Twitter via the Browser Widget on iOS 13 I get this error message==> "This browser is no longer supported. Please switch to a supported browser or disable the extension which masks you browser to continue using twitter.com". Is there a widget setting I can change to eliminate this? It works on Android and iOS 12. This is from the first tester. Could there be a iOS devices setting that this user inadvertently changed that caused this? I'm waiting for other testers but wanted to get on top of this. Any ideas?

Thanks.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net





From mark at livecode.com  Thu Aug 13 11:15:36 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:15:36 +0100
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
Message-ID: <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-13 13:46, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> When accessing Twitter via the Browser Widget on iOS 13 I get this
> error message==> "This browser is no longer supported. Please switch
> to a supported browser or disable the extension which masks you
> browser to continue using twitter.com". Is there a widget setting I
> can change to eliminate this? It works on Android and iOS 12. This is
> from the first tester. Could there be a iOS devices setting that this
> user inadvertently changed that caused this? I'm waiting for other
> testers but wanted to get on top of this. Any ideas?

Hmmm - the wording "This browser is no longer supported. Please switch 
to a supported browser or disable the extension which masks you browser 
to continue using twitter.com" suggests that twitter.com is using the 
userAgent string to determine access.

I'm pretty sure the old UIWebView (which we replaced with WKWebView in 
9.6) didn't support a custom user agent string - but the new WKWebView 
one does.

Are you setting `the userAgent` property of the browser widget anywhere?

Of course, this wouldn't explain why it works in iOS12 / Android if this 
is the problem...

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Thu Aug 13 12:06:42 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:06:42 -0400
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>

Thanks Mark.

I searched all stacks for "userAgent" and it did not exist. After I got some
more feedback it is working on iOS 13 iPhones but not on an iOS 13 iPad. So
far this iPad is the only one with this issue. The user tried in Safari on
the iPad and did not get the message.

LC 9.6.0 
OSX 10.14.6 
Xcode 11.3.1

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 11:16 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Mark Waddingham
Subject: Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

On 2020-08-13 13:46, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> When accessing Twitter via the Browser Widget on iOS 13 I get this 
> error message==> "This browser is no longer supported. Please switch 
> to a supported browser or disable the extension which masks you 
> browser to continue using twitter.com". Is there a widget setting I 
> can change to eliminate this? It works on Android and iOS 12. This is 
> from the first tester. Could there be a iOS devices setting that this 
> user inadvertently changed that caused this? I'm waiting for other 
> testers but wanted to get on top of this. Any ideas?

Hmmm - the wording "This browser is no longer supported. Please switch to a
supported browser or disable the extension which masks you browser to
continue using twitter.com" suggests that twitter.com is using the userAgent
string to determine access.

I'm pretty sure the old UIWebView (which we replaced with WKWebView in
9.6) didn't support a custom user agent string - but the new WKWebView one
does.

Are you setting `the userAgent` property of the browser widget anywhere?

Of course, this wouldn't explain why it works in iOS12 / Android if this is
the problem...

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org  Thu Aug 13 12:30:55 2020
From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (Prothero@earthlearning)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:30:55 -0700
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
References: <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
Message-ID: <82DC0911-E815-4652-A46F-A6CFA4C79F22@earthlearningsolutions.org>

FYI,
I have bitdefender on my Apple Laptop and when I post an entry to my mysql database on my server, I get a security alert from bitdefender (Catalina latest update and latest LC distro, LC 9.6.1). So, I wonder if the person with the problem might have some kind of anti-virus software installed.

Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Aug 13, 2020, at 9:05 AM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Thanks Mark.
> 
> I searched all stacks for "userAgent" and it did not exist. After I got some
> more feedback it is working on iOS 13 iPhones but not on an iOS 13 iPad. So
> far this iPad is the only one with this issue. The user tried in Safari on
> the iPad and did not get the message.
> 
> LC 9.6.0 
> OSX 10.14.6 
> Xcode 11.3.1
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 11:16 AM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Mark Waddingham
> Subject: Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
> 
>>> On 2020-08-13 13:46, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
>> When accessing Twitter via the Browser Widget on iOS 13 I get this
>> error message==> "This browser is no longer supported. Please switch
>> to a supported browser or disable the extension which masks you
>> browser to continue using twitter.com". Is there a widget setting I
>> can change to eliminate this? It works on Android and iOS 12. This is
>> from the first tester. Could there be a iOS devices setting that this
>> user inadvertently changed that caused this? I'm waiting for other
>> testers but wanted to get on top of this. Any ideas?
> 
> Hmmm - the wording "This browser is no longer supported. Please switch to a
> supported browser or disable the extension which masks you browser to
> continue using twitter.com" suggests that twitter.com is using the userAgent
> string to determine access.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the old UIWebView (which we replaced with WKWebView in
> 9.6) didn't support a custom user agent string - but the new WKWebView one
> does.
> 
> Are you setting `the userAgent` property of the browser widget anywhere?
> 
> Of course, this wouldn't explain why it works in iOS12 / Android if this is
> the problem...
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From mark at livecode.com  Thu Aug 13 13:09:00 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:09:00 +0100
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
Message-ID: <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-13 17:06, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Thanks Mark.
> 
> I searched all stacks for "userAgent" and it did not exist. After I got 
> some
> more feedback it is working on iOS 13 iPhones but not on an iOS 13 
> iPad. So
> far this iPad is the only one with this issue. The user tried in Safari 
> on
> the iPad and did not get the message.

So that is just odd - it might be worth checking that said iPad has the 
latest version of iOS13...

There's a small chance that Apple has fixed something in WKWebView on 
iOS13 in some .x increment, and Twitter has blocked the versions before 
(via userAgent).

Safari and WKWebView are not the same thing (I think Safari might use 
its own private version of WebKit under the hood - although I'm not 100% 
sure about that) so the Safari comparison might not be relevant in this 
case.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Thu Aug 13 13:30:19 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:30:19 -0400
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>

That tester has both iPhone and iPad and I know there both running the same
version of iOS. iPhone doesn't get the message but the iPad does. I will
find out if there both up to the latest 13.x.x. (it flew out of my head
after I heard they were running the same version)

Odd indeed but I(well Panos) just found a iPad oddity that a couple of iPad
Mini models running 12.x would only load local web pages if they were in the
temp folder. So this unified iOS SW/HW thing is not 100% yet.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 1:09 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Mark Waddingham
Subject: Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

On 2020-08-13 17:06, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Thanks Mark.
> 
> I searched all stacks for "userAgent" and it did not exist. After I 
> got some more feedback it is working on iOS 13 iPhones but not on an 
> iOS 13 iPad. So far this iPad is the only one with this issue. The 
> user tried in Safari on the iPad and did not get the message.

So that is just odd - it might be worth checking that said iPad has the
latest version of iOS13...

There's a small chance that Apple has fixed something in WKWebView on
iOS13 in some .x increment, and Twitter has blocked the versions before (via
userAgent).

Safari and WKWebView are not the same thing (I think Safari might use its
own private version of WebKit under the hood - although I'm not 100% sure
about that) so the Safari comparison might not be relevant in this case.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From mark at livecode.com  Thu Aug 13 13:35:58 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:35:58 +0100
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
 <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
Message-ID: <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-13 18:30, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> That tester has both iPhone and iPad and I know there both running the 
> same
> version of iOS. iPhone doesn't get the message but the iPad does. I 
> will
> find out if there both up to the latest 13.x.x. (it flew out of my head
> after I heard they were running the same version)

So I'm pretty sure this has to be the userAgent string which any HTTP 
client sends up as a header (User-Agent:?) as I don't think any other 
browser-specific/OS-specific/device-specific information is transmitted.

If you can send the user an app with just a browser widget in it where 
they can visit:

    https://www.whatismybrowser.com/detect/what-is-my-user-agent

On both the iPad and iPhone they have then at least it will show if 
there *is* a difference between the two devices in terms of what 
WKWebView is sending (can also compare with Safari on the devices too 
which would either confirm or deny my suspicion about Safari not being a 
wrapped WKWebView).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Thu Aug 13 13:06:33 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:06:33 +0200
Subject: More Standalone Building Weirdness...
In-Reply-To: <fc052efc-13d8-476a-f120-b16c6f56124e@researchware.com>
References: <fc052efc-13d8-476a-f120-b16c6f56124e@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqiJn=qBSa7X6ag_LzVktO+DQrmgVeyCFU7J3H7MUvv2PFY0A@mail.gmail.com>

Put this in every stack you build, and i mean the "build close issue" part
in the on closeStack Handler

It was in one of the release notes.

Maybe that is holding your build to complete



on shutdownRequest
   answer question "Are you sure you want to stop?" with "Y" or "N"
   if it is "Y" then
      pass shutdownRequest
   end if
end shutdownRequest

on closeStack
   -----------------build close issue----------
   if the environment is "development" and \
         there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
         the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
      exit closeStack
   end if
   ---------------------------
   lock messages
   quit --triggers shutdownrequestmessage, if not handled then it hangs
   pass closeStack
end closeStack

Op wo 12 aug. 2020 om 20:32 schreef Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:

> I have a stack that when I build into a Windows Standalone (only
> Windows) in LC 9.6.0 under Windows, the dialog that says "Attaching
> Engine..." never finishes.
>
> The Standalone gets built and runs properly, but the "Attaching
> engine..." dialog in the building process never finishes (waiting over
> an hour for a tiny stack) and I have to bring up teh Task Manager and
> force the LiveCode app to exit.
>
> Anyone seen anything like this? Have any idea what causes it?
>
> Since the app does get built and runs fine, and I am under a deadline, I
> don't really have time to troubleshoot it. It is easier to just force LC
> to exit, but if someone has seen this and knows the cause, please let me
> know.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Thu Aug 13 16:03:44 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:03:44 -0700
Subject: More Standalone Building Weirdness...
In-Reply-To: <CAEqiJn=qBSa7X6ag_LzVktO+DQrmgVeyCFU7J3H7MUvv2PFY0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJn=qBSa7X6ag_LzVktO+DQrmgVeyCFU7J3H7MUvv2PFY0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <942f2c15-6855-215d-5eba-568b977f030a@fourthworld.com>

The Standalone Builder really needs to be a separate process.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Aug 13 21:53:22 2020
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 21:53:22 -0400
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLKwdng1VgxKnhDqi0UAHC5KgSgk7_-o5Ws511YD8DJVNw@mail.gmail.com>

Yikes...... I have a lot of time for LC but there is really no excuse that
is acceptable for this kinda bug to be around for so long.... there were
others that drove me nuts for years too...but have since been solved thank
God.


On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 7:53 AM David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On 13 Aug 2020, at 4:16 am, Pi Digital via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Why do I have the same discussion with you people
>
> Hi Sean, There are no ?you people?, there is only us, including you.
>
> I can?t help you with your IDE problem, but I can see that others are
> trying hard to be helpful, and that you are running on empty.
>
> Maybe get some sleep and revisit the issue when you are feeling refreshed?
>
> Cheers,
>
> David G
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Mobile:647.562.9411


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Aug 14 00:15:09 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 21:15:09 -0700
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKwdng1VgxKnhDqi0UAHC5KgSgk7_-o5Ws511YD8DJVNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKwdng1VgxKnhDqi0UAHC5KgSgk7_-o5Ws511YD8DJVNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe753a25-b8db-a4ec-852e-2f71ec5970f4@fourthworld.com>

Tom, I'm among the several here who have been unable to reproduce the 
original issue discussed here, at least as I understood it.

Perhaps I misunderstand it. What is the recipe for the bug you're 
referring to?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems


Tom Glod wote:
> Yikes...... I have a lot of time for LC but there is really no excuse that
> is acceptable for this kinda bug to be around for so long.... there were
> others that drove me nuts for years too...but have since been solved thank
> God.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 7:53 AM David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> > On 13 Aug 2020, at 4:16 am, Pi Digital via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Why do I have the same discussion with you people
>>
>> Hi Sean, There are no ?you people?, there is only us, including you.
>>
>> I can?t help you with your IDE problem, but I can see that others are
>> trying hard to be helpful, and that you are running on empty.
>>
>> Maybe get some sleep and revisit the issue when you are feeling refreshed?
>>




From merakosp at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 03:39:47 2020
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 10:39:47 +0300
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
 <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
 <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq9xKDX+hNGVvyajvASgkRw8oXt2Jjn+nXpw8aXwROm=JA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

Definitely this is related to the user-agent. It seems twitter recently has
become stricter on this:

https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/twitter-supported-browsers

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/63081729/when-using-r-curl-to-download-a-twitter-page-the-page-downloaded-is-this-brows

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/62967532/ipad-wkwebview-in-case-of-ipad-i-am-getting-this-browser-is-no-longer-supporte

I get the same warning ("this browser is no longer supported .." ) when I
try to visit https://twitter.com from a browser widget on my Mac (10.14.6)
with LC 9.6.0.

I was able to get rid of the warning by visiting the page Mark posted (
https://www.whatismybrowser.com/detect/what-is-my-user-agent) with Safari
to see what an accepted user-agent is, and then set the "userAgent" of the
browser widget to this value.

Kind regards,
Panos
--



On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 20:36, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2020-08-13 18:30, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> > That tester has both iPhone and iPad and I know there both running the
> > same
> > version of iOS. iPhone doesn't get the message but the iPad does. I
> > will
> > find out if there both up to the latest 13.x.x. (it flew out of my head
> > after I heard they were running the same version)
>
> So I'm pretty sure this has to be the userAgent string which any HTTP
> client sends up as a header (User-Agent:?) as I don't think any other
> browser-specific/OS-specific/device-specific information is transmitted.
>
> If you can send the user an app with just a browser widget in it where
> they can visit:
>
>     https://www.whatismybrowser.com/detect/what-is-my-user-agent
>
> On both the iPad and iPhone they have then at least it will show if
> there *is* a difference between the two devices in terms of what
> WKWebView is sending (can also compare with Safari on the devices too
> which would either confirm or deny my suspicion about Safari not being a
> wrapped WKWebView).
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Fri Aug 14 04:40:35 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:40:35 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <fe753a25-b8db-a4ec-852e-2f71ec5970f4@fourthworld.com>
References: <fe753a25-b8db-a4ec-852e-2f71ec5970f4@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <91F671F4-1096-494F-9C62-969CC8F83959@pidigital.co.uk>

Richard

Watch my videos I posted using Dropbox. It?s madness. And it?s been CONFIRMED and NOT FIXED for a very long time....

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18818

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19455

Probably FIXED but still marked as CONFIRMED....

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21460

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22698

RantyBit (BOOL *withTruthElement){
Which also demonstrates why bugzilla lives up to its name as an unwieldy monster, unmanaged and out of control. Heaps and heaps of UNCONFIRMED and CONFIRMED items that have not been dealt with, shelved or FIXED. Too busy creating ?new features? or working on FMPro stuff that no one is using (https://community.claris.com/en/s/question/0D50H00007PK9tH/current-state-of-livecode-for-fm) rather than fix all the basics. Or, based on the rate of pull requests, sweet fa. 

.... Frikin people who say ?I can?t reproduce? when it is clearly demonstrated in a frikin video EXACTLY what is happening! Does my nut in!! I *have* got BPD, but any ?normal? person would get infuriated by this behaviour from those outside and is the usual barrage of unhelpfulness that comes from the afore mentioned ?You People?! And I am saying this ?after some sleep? and ?a fresh look? as prescribed by other ?you people? I this thread.

2c: I wasn?t after more workarounds. I want to highlight how crap like this NEVER gets fixed or dealt with and continues being poop. Someone (Mark, Ali, Sam, Ian, Kevin, Heather, anyone) needs to start fixing shite like this that has been around the last 6 years! Things looked promising when Panos came on board and was ploughing through heaps of bugs. But that?s all slowed to a deadening thud too. Lockdown was an opportunity that looks like has been squandered. Little to no (meaningful) communication other than begging for more cash. Hmpf!
}

Sean Cole
Pi Digital


> On 14 Aug 2020, at 05:15, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Tom, I'm among the several here who have been unable to reproduce the original issue discussed here, at least as I understood it.
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstand it. What is the recipe for the bug you're referring to?
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> 
> 
> Tom Glod wote:
>> Yikes...... I have a lot of time for LC but there is really no excuse that
>> is acceptable for this kinda bug to be around for so long.... there were
>> others that drove me nuts for years too...but have since been solved thank
>> God.
>>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 7:53 AM David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > On 13 Aug 2020, at 4:16 am, Pi Digital via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Why do I have the same discussion with you people
>>> 
>>> Hi Sean, There are no ?you people?, there is only us, including you.
>>> 
>>> I can?t help you with your IDE problem, but I can see that others are
>>> trying hard to be helpful, and that you are running on empty.
>>> 
>>> Maybe get some sleep and revisit the issue when you are feeling refreshed?
>>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 05:31:05 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:31:05 +0200
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAF3jwTnAqf87MVrSRLKk_LWMN38yumpGCpxaHiNUDPU7-qtLLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1596902402.422041.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <F0212759-5FA3-46E5-A7CE-B1810638B9A9@netrin.com>
 <CAF3jwTnAqf87MVrSRLKk_LWMN38yumpGCpxaHiNUDPU7-qtLLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqiJn=0SizvWHqsgz8ex50EYtLWWfk9vU8dmvg7-z1TtB8ydA@mail.gmail.com>

Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then Apple
don't get 30%....

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/170916/apple-verwijdert-fortnite-uit-app-store.html
It's in dutch but you get the message.
or this one
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21366438/apple-fortnite-ios-app-store-violations-epic-payments

Op zo 9 aug. 2020 om 16:52 schreef Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:

> > Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
>
> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that is
> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you can't
> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it harder
> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users because it
> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
>
> Since you can't sideload apps, you as a user need to have Apple permission
> before installing software on the device you purchased and should own. You
> as a developer are allowed to sell software outside of Apple's blessing,
> even if you have customers interested in the software you make. Apple is a
> gatekeeper and a very picky one.
>
> Gatekeepers are harmful to consumers and sellers. Since you as a developer
> can't simply compile software and sell it own your own page without Apple
> double blessing, you're not really in control of your platform and Apple
> may exercise the right to cut you out of the platform at any time. This is
> harmful.
>
> > Consumer behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary,
> consumers are willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services
>
> That is totally not true because you can't measure it. You can't measure
> "iOS with a more open ecosystem" vs "iOS with its current draconian
> ecosystem" because that you don't have the more open version to match it
> against the current one. The choice here is not between Apple and Android.
> Apple could still offer the same software, services, and hardware, and be
> more open. People would still choose them. No one chooses the option with
> less options and gatekeepers if they have an alternative. The tight
> integration between iOS and macOS devices is wonderful and people are happy
> to pay a premium for such quality. If you ask any Apple user why they buy
> Apple, no one will answer: "Because I like the way they don't allow
> developers to compete with Apple itself" which is why the EU and other
> companies are crying wolf in the direction of one infinite loop. People
> will say they choose Apple because of the attention to detail, the quality
> of service, hardware, and software, none of which would be gone if Apple
> was more open.
>
> The key to understand this is that all that you like about Apple can still
> be there, including the App store. If you want to stay in an environment
> like what we have today, it should be possible to do so. But you should
> also have options for when you want to step outside. There should be
> alternative stores or alternative ways to distribute software.
>
> I'm not saying "burn iOS and Apple". I'm saying the current practices
> benefit no one but Apple and are harmful to a healthy ecosystem. They could
> still be Apple and not be a bully. For example, the need of notarizing apps
> is going to make distributing FOSS on macOS a bit harder. Once Apple moves
> to its own ARM CPUs, it will be harder for every third-party vendor to
> compete with Apple solutions as they'll be able to cram custom silicon like
> T2 and lock down the machine in a way that has not been done in ages.
>
> If I was LC I'd be throwing some more people into making sure LC runs
> really well under Linux and Windows, both of which are second class
> citizens when compared to macOS. Heck the IDE under windows is horribly
> slow, I have no idea how it performs under Linux. When dealing with Apple
> you always need a plan b.
>
> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > BrianM wrote:
> > > One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point of
> > view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
> >
> > True.
> > In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
> > Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are
> there
> > to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of consumers.
>  Or
> > our end users.
> >
> > Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers? Consumer
> > behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers are
> > willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services.
> >
> > Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system. But
> > that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a monopolistic
> one.
> > And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is nothing
> > iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't want to
> > buy into Apple?s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers can
> > choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing
> > consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen if
> > Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer Apple's
> strict
> > proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it.
> >
> > Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us jump
> > through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple constantly
> > changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is it? Or
> > is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their consumers?
> >
> > There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is
> > outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you think
> > you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell your app
> > on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?
> >
> > The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make little or
> no
> > money, regardless of OS.
> > So is it painful to surrender 30% of nothing? ;)
> >
> > But back to the purpose of this list, aren't we lucky to have LiveCode, a
> > development platform that gives us the power to develop for whatever
> > platforms make sense for us?
> >
> > Jim Lambert
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Aug 14 08:31:10 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:31:10 -0400
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq9xKDX+hNGVvyajvASgkRw8oXt2Jjn+nXpw8aXwROm=JA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
 <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
 <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>
 <CA+JfEq9xKDX+hNGVvyajvASgkRw8oXt2Jjn+nXpw8aXwROm=JA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301d67236$cd77f6c0$6867e440$@net>

Thanks Panos and Mark!

So... to recap..
1) get the userAgent in Safari on my 10.14.6 Mac
2) in App (If the platform="iphone" then set userAgent to this value).

Should I use the userAgent globally for all browser widget http(s) requests
on platform = iphone?
Will this affect any other tsNet functions?
Should it be reset back to empty for any reason?

Should I file a bug report?

Have a good weekend.
Thanks again.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 3:40 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: panagiotis merakos
Subject: Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

Hello all,

Definitely this is related to the user-agent. It seems twitter recently has
become stricter on this:

https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/twitter-supported-browsers

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/63081729/when-using-r-curl-to-download-a
-twitter-page-the-page-downloaded-is-this-brows

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/62967532/ipad-wkwebview-in-case-of-ipad-
i-am-getting-this-browser-is-no-longer-supporte

I get the same warning ("this browser is no longer supported .." ) when I
try to visit https://twitter.com from a browser widget on my Mac (10.14.6)
with LC 9.6.0.

I was able to get rid of the warning by visiting the page Mark posted (
https://www.whatismybrowser.com/detect/what-is-my-user-agent) with Safari to
see what an accepted user-agent is, and then set the "userAgent" of the
browser widget to this value.

Kind regards,
Panos
--



On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 20:36, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2020-08-13 18:30, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> > That tester has both iPhone and iPad and I know there both running 
> > the same version of iOS. iPhone doesn't get the message but the iPad 
> > does. I will find out if there both up to the latest 13.x.x. (it 
> > flew out of my head after I heard they were running the same 
> > version)
>
> So I'm pretty sure this has to be the userAgent string which any HTTP 
> client sends up as a header (User-Agent:?) as I don't think any other 
> browser-specific/OS-specific/device-specific information is transmitted.
>
> If you can send the user an app with just a browser widget in it where 
> they can visit:
>
>     https://www.whatismybrowser.com/detect/what-is-my-user-agent
>
> On both the iPad and iPhone they have then at least it will show if 
> there *is* a difference between the two devices in terms of what 
> WKWebView is sending (can also compare with Safari on the devices too 
> which would either confirm or deny my suspicion about Safari not being 
> a wrapped WKWebView).
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From mark at livecode.com  Fri Aug 14 09:01:01 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:01:01 +0100
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <000301d67236$cd77f6c0$6867e440$@net>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
 <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
 <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>
 <CA+JfEq9xKDX+hNGVvyajvASgkRw8oXt2Jjn+nXpw8aXwROm=JA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301d67236$cd77f6c0$6867e440$@net>
Message-ID: <253471b3a7766b039668266890251b7f@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-14 13:31, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Thanks Panos and Mark!
> 
> So... to recap..
> 1) get the userAgent in Safari on my 10.14.6 Mac
> 2) in App (If the platform="iphone" then set userAgent to this value).

Pretty much - although I recommend not using the userAgent string from a 
mac. Instead, get the userAgent string from an iPad which allows you to 
access twitter.com through the browser widget. Just in case anything 
mac-ish in the user agent string causes twitter.com to do something 
different (e.g. specialize for desktop rather than mobile).

> Should I use the userAgent globally for all browser widget http(s) 
> requests
> on platform = iphone?

Isn't the issue on iPad?

> Will this affect any other tsNet functions?

The browser widget uses WKWebView which uses system HTTP functionality 
so tsNet isn't involved.

> Should it be reset back to empty for any reason?

I can't think of one.

> Should I file a bug report?

No - this isn't anything we can do anything about. I strongly suspect 
the iPad issue your client is having is one of;
   - it isn't running the very latest iOS version, and Twitter is 
blocking the default userAgent string for that version and older ones 
which come from WKWebView
   - Twitter's (new?) block-list isn't actually correct and not taking 
into account enough variations (e.g. those coming from WKWebView).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From mark at livecode.com  Fri Aug 14 09:11:36 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:11:36 +0100
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <253471b3a7766b039668266890251b7f@livecode.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
 <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
 <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>
 <CA+JfEq9xKDX+hNGVvyajvASgkRw8oXt2Jjn+nXpw8aXwROm=JA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301d67236$cd77f6c0$6867e440$@net>
 <253471b3a7766b039668266890251b7f@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <e1d0a297f00beb03f6871a2687198181@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-14 14:01, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
> On 2020-08-14 13:31, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
>> Should I use the userAgent globally for all browser widget http(s) 
>> requests
>> on platform = iphone?
> 
> Isn't the issue on iPad?

Hah - ignore this - I forgot to edit it when I realized 'the platform' 
returns iPhone (its the machine which distinguishes between iPad and 
iPhone).

Whether to do it for all web-requests then I'm not sure - this is 
twitter.com related thing as far as I can see.

It shouldn't do any harm to use the same useragent for all requests 
though (although you might want to check if iPad latest iOS from Safari 
is different from iPhone latest from Safari and switch on the machine if 
so).

I'd recommend removing this mitigation if/when twitter.com starts 
behaving normally again though as you don't want to have to keep that up 
to date lest it cause problems for other websites.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From kee.nethery at elloco.com  Fri Aug 14 10:04:09 2020
From: kee.nethery at elloco.com (Kee Nethery)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:04:09 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAEqiJn=0SizvWHqsgz8ex50EYtLWWfk9vU8dmvg7-z1TtB8ydA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJn=0SizvWHqsgz8ex50EYtLWWfk9vU8dmvg7-z1TtB8ydA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <040D4B35-EDBB-4161-AEDF-02EC5E13EEC6@elloco.com>

Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of apps have done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when doing so. Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg Amazon) they cannot use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are required to use IAP. Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got booted. Nothing surprising about it other than that they thought they would get away with it.

Kee Nethery

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then Apple
> don't get 30%....
> 
> https://tweakers.net/nieuws/170916/apple-verwijdert-fortnite-uit-app-store.html
> It's in dutch but you get the message.
> or this one
> https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21366438/apple-fortnite-ios-app-store-violations-epic-payments
> 
> Op zo 9 aug. 2020 om 16:52 schreef Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
>> 
>> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that is
>> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
>> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you can't
>> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it harder
>> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users because it
>> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
>> 
>> Since you can't sideload apps, you as a user need to have Apple permission
>> before installing software on the device you purchased and should own. You
>> as a developer are allowed to sell software outside of Apple's blessing,
>> even if you have customers interested in the software you make. Apple is a
>> gatekeeper and a very picky one.
>> 
>> Gatekeepers are harmful to consumers and sellers. Since you as a developer
>> can't simply compile software and sell it own your own page without Apple
>> double blessing, you're not really in control of your platform and Apple
>> may exercise the right to cut you out of the platform at any time. This is
>> harmful.
>> 
>>> Consumer behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary,
>> consumers are willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services
>> 
>> That is totally not true because you can't measure it. You can't measure
>> "iOS with a more open ecosystem" vs "iOS with its current draconian
>> ecosystem" because that you don't have the more open version to match it
>> against the current one. The choice here is not between Apple and Android.
>> Apple could still offer the same software, services, and hardware, and be
>> more open. People would still choose them. No one chooses the option with
>> less options and gatekeepers if they have an alternative. The tight
>> integration between iOS and macOS devices is wonderful and people are happy
>> to pay a premium for such quality. If you ask any Apple user why they buy
>> Apple, no one will answer: "Because I like the way they don't allow
>> developers to compete with Apple itself" which is why the EU and other
>> companies are crying wolf in the direction of one infinite loop. People
>> will say they choose Apple because of the attention to detail, the quality
>> of service, hardware, and software, none of which would be gone if Apple
>> was more open.
>> 
>> The key to understand this is that all that you like about Apple can still
>> be there, including the App store. If you want to stay in an environment
>> like what we have today, it should be possible to do so. But you should
>> also have options for when you want to step outside. There should be
>> alternative stores or alternative ways to distribute software.
>> 
>> I'm not saying "burn iOS and Apple". I'm saying the current practices
>> benefit no one but Apple and are harmful to a healthy ecosystem. They could
>> still be Apple and not be a bully. For example, the need of notarizing apps
>> is going to make distributing FOSS on macOS a bit harder. Once Apple moves
>> to its own ARM CPUs, it will be harder for every third-party vendor to
>> compete with Apple solutions as they'll be able to cram custom silicon like
>> T2 and lock down the machine in a way that has not been done in ages.
>> 
>> If I was LC I'd be throwing some more people into making sure LC runs
>> really well under Linux and Windows, both of which are second class
>> citizens when compared to macOS. Heck the IDE under windows is horribly
>> slow, I have no idea how it performs under Linux. When dealing with Apple
>> you always need a plan b.
>> 
>> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> BrianM wrote:
>>>> One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point of
>>> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
>>> 
>>> True.
>>> In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
>>> Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are
>> there
>>> to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of consumers.
>> Or
>>> our end users.
>>> 
>>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers? Consumer
>>> behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers are
>>> willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services.
>>> 
>>> Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system. But
>>> that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a monopolistic
>> one.
>>> And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is nothing
>>> iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't want to
>>> buy into Apple?s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers can
>>> choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing
>>> consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen if
>>> Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer Apple's
>> strict
>>> proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it.
>>> 
>>> Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us jump
>>> through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple constantly
>>> changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is it? Or
>>> is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their consumers?
>>> 
>>> There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is
>>> outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you think
>>> you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell your app
>>> on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?
>>> 
>>> The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make little or
>> no
>>> money, regardless of OS.
>>> So is it painful to surrender 30% of nothing? ;)
>>> 
>>> But back to the purpose of this list, aren't we lucky to have LiveCode, a
>>> development platform that gives us the power to develop for whatever
>>> platforms make sense for us?
>>> 
>>> Jim Lambert
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
>> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Fri Aug 14 10:46:34 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 15:46:34 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <040D4B35-EDBB-4161-AEDF-02EC5E13EEC6@elloco.com>
References: <CAEqiJn=0SizvWHqsgz8ex50EYtLWWfk9vU8dmvg7-z1TtB8ydA@mail.gmail.com>
 <040D4B35-EDBB-4161-AEDF-02EC5E13EEC6@elloco.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
*platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.

The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung, Nike,
AT&T, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.

If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
high-ground (which does not exist).

Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including iOS.
They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there. I'm
sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
rattles laying around their prams. ;)

Myself, I'd be glad to see the back of ALL of them. But in this 'world
order' that won't happen. Someone else will just rise up in their place.
Better the 'devils' you know for now!

Sean

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:04, Kee Nethery via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of apps
> have done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when
> doing so. Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg Amazon)
> they cannot use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are
> required to use IAP. Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got
> booted. Nothing surprising about it other than that they thought they would
> get away with it.
>
> Kee Nethery
>
> > On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> > because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then Apple
> > don't get 30%....
>


> >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> >>
> >> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that is
> >> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
> >> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you
> can't
> >> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it
> harder
> >> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users
> because it
> >> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
>


> >> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> BrianM wrote:
> >>>> One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point of
> >>> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
> >>>
> >>> True.
> >>> In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
> >>> Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are
> >> there
> >>> to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of consumers.
> >> Or
> >>> our end users.
> >>>
> >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> Consumer
> >>> behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers are
> >>> willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services.
> >>>
> >>> Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system. But
> >>> that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a monopolistic
> >> one.
> >>> And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is
> nothing
> >>> iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't want
> to
> >>> buy into Apple?s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers can
> >>> choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing
> >>> consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen if
> >>> Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer Apple's
> >> strict
> >>> proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it.
> >>>
> >>> Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us jump
> >>> through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple constantly
> >>> changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is it?
> Or
> >>> is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their consumers?
> >>>
> >>> There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is
> >>> outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you
> think
> >>> you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell your
> app
> >>> on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?
> >>>
> >>> The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make little or
> >> no
> >>> money, regardless of OS.
> >>> So is it painful to surrender 30% of nothing? ;)
> >>>
> >>> But back to the purpose of this list, aren't we lucky to have
> LiveCode, a
> >>> development platform that gives us the power to develop for whatever
> >>> platforms make sense for us?
>


From paul at researchware.com  Fri Aug 14 11:24:00 2020
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:24:00 -0400
Subject: More Standalone Building Weirdness...
In-Reply-To: <CAEqiJn=qBSa7X6ag_LzVktO+DQrmgVeyCFU7J3H7MUvv2PFY0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fc052efc-13d8-476a-f120-b16c6f56124e@researchware.com>
 <CAEqiJn=qBSa7X6ag_LzVktO+DQrmgVeyCFU7J3H7MUvv2PFY0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b7612f3f-2eb1-56d2-e574-63ceb01d1d51@researchware.com>

The stack where building a Windows Standalone just stays on "Attaching 
Engine..." forever had no 'closeStack' handlers at all.

I added the following:

on closeStack
    -----------------build close issue----------
    if the environment is "development" and \
          there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
          the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
       exit closeStack
    end if
    ---------------------------
    pass closeStack
end closeStack

An there was no change in behavior. Under LC960 (I have not tried other 
versions), it builds the standalone, but then just remains on "Attaching 
engine..." and I have to force LC to exit.

If no one else has seen anything like this, then it is probably 
something about the stack. I don't have problems building other 
standalones in LC960.


On 8/13/2020 1:06 PM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> Put this in every stack you build, and i mean the "build close issue" part
> in the on closeStack Handler
>
> It was in one of the release notes.
>
> Maybe that is holding your build to complete
>
>
>
> on shutdownRequest
>     answer question "Are you sure you want to stop?" with "Y" or "N"
>     if it is "Y" then
>        pass shutdownRequest
>     end if
> end shutdownRequest
>
> on closeStack
>     -----------------build close issue----------
>     if the environment is "development" and \
>           there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
>           the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
>        exit closeStack
>     end if
>     ---------------------------
>     lock messages
>     quit --triggers shutdownrequestmessage, if not handled then it hangs
>     pass closeStack
> end closeStack
>
> Op wo 12 aug. 2020 om 20:32 schreef Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>
>> I have a stack that when I build into a Windows Standalone (only
>> Windows) in LC 9.6.0 under Windows, the dialog that says "Attaching
>> Engine..." never finishes.
>>
>> The Standalone gets built and runs properly, but the "Attaching
>> engine..." dialog in the building process never finishes (waiting over
>> an hour for a tiny stack) and I have to bring up teh Task Manager and
>> force the LiveCode app to exit.
>>
>> Anyone seen anything like this? Have any idea what causes it?
>>
>> Since the app does get built and runs fine, and I am under a deadline, I
>> don't really have time to troubleshoot it. It is easier to just force LC
>> to exit, but if someone has seen this and knows the cause, please let me
>> know.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From andre at andregarzia.com  Fri Aug 14 12:56:38 2020
From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 17:56:38 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJn=0SizvWHqsgz8ex50EYtLWWfk9vU8dmvg7-z1TtB8ydA@mail.gmail.com>
 <040D4B35-EDBB-4161-AEDF-02EC5E13EEC6@elloco.com>
 <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3jwT=Mbkayd-cf1Vw=N_6nF0oZzTXsT6eHojzXN==WBjSAbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sean,

> Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
> crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including iOS.
> They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
> can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
> one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
> purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there.
I'm
> sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
> rattles laying around their prams. ;)


I am talking specifically about iOS and about the fact that every single
browser on iOS is running the same engine as Safari, even Firefox. Believe
me, I know browsers more than most people on this list. I know Brave
founders; we had beers together last year. I actually met and in some cases
even collaborated with engineers from every single major browser. Heck, a
feature I made for Firefox became so popular that Google adopted the same
feature and came to tell me that in person during the DWeb Summit 2018.

Apple doesn't allow any other engine on iOS, every single browser is
WebKit. Chrome, Brave, Firefox, they are all WebKit on iOS. You can add
features on top of it, but you can't replace the engine with your engine.
So Google can't ship Blink and Mozilla can't ship Gecko on iOS. We used to
joke that Firefox for iOS should be called MozSafari. The reason those
companies are shipping browsers on iOS even though they are prohibited from
shipping their own engines is because they want to:

1 - They have a presence in the platform. This is a marketing/strategic
reason to keep your brand awareness strong with that platform users.
2 - So they can add their own services on top such as bookmark
synchronizing. This is beneficial for the users and the vendor. The fear
vendors have that the users might migrate to full Safari on mobile and then
on Desktop as well is reason enough to compell them to work even with these
limitations.

It used to be worse. Not long ago Apple had an engine that you were allowed
to use for your apps and used a more modern one for Safari on iOS. That
caused every single other browser to perform worse than Safari on iOS. That
is no longer the case but it was true up to not a couple years ago. As for
engines, Apple took KHTML from the KDE project and created WebKit and
Safari. Google picked WebKit and had a divergence with Apple, so they
created Blink. With the exception of Firefox which uses Gecko, and Safari
that uses WebKit, most of the other browsers are all Blink based, that
means that Chrome, Microsoft Edge, Opera, Vivaldi, Samsung Internet, are
all running the same engine. I wrote about it in 2018:

  https://andregarzia.com/2018/12/while-we-blink-we-lose-the-web.html

This is a problem and it plays a role in the whole antitrust and fair play
conversation regarding iOS. Reading things like "It is their platform, you
can either agree or go somewhere else" is naive. The lives of millions are
passing through these devices, we need better legal tools to make companies
accountable. If Microsoft tried to pull such a stunt of not allowing any
other browser engine on Windows, the EU commission would wrath would be
upon them as fast as lightning, iOS shouldn't be different.

Best
Andre





On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:46, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
> *platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
> THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.
>
> The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung, Nike,
> AT&T, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.
>
> If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
> potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
> nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
> high-ground (which does not exist).
>
> Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
> crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including iOS.
> They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
> can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
> one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
> purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there. I'm
> sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
> rattles laying around their prams. ;)
>
> Myself, I'd be glad to see the back of ALL of them. But in this 'world
> order' that won't happen. Someone else will just rise up in their place.
> Better the 'devils' you know for now!
>
> Sean
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:04, Kee Nethery via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of apps
> > have done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when
> > doing so. Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg
> Amazon)
> > they cannot use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are
> > required to use IAP. Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got
> > booted. Nothing surprising about it other than that they thought they
> would
> > get away with it.
> >
> > Kee Nethery
> >
> > > On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> > > because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then
> Apple
> > > don't get 30%....
> >
>
>
> > >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> > >>
> > >> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that
> is
> > >> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
> > >> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you
> > can't
> > >> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it
> > harder
> > >> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users
> > because it
> > >> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
> >
>
>
> > >> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> BrianM wrote:
> > >>>> One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point
> of
> > >>> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
> > >>>
> > >>> True.
> > >>> In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
> > >>> Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are
> > >> there
> > >>> to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of
> consumers.
> > >> Or
> > >>> our end users.
> > >>>
> > >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> > Consumer
> > >>> behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers
> are
> > >>> willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services.
> > >>>
> > >>> Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system.
> But
> > >>> that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a monopolistic
> > >> one.
> > >>> And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is
> > nothing
> > >>> iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't want
> > to
> > >>> buy into Apple?s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers
> can
> > >>> choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing
> > >>> consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen
> if
> > >>> Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer Apple's
> > >> strict
> > >>> proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it.
> > >>>
> > >>> Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us
> jump
> > >>> through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple constantly
> > >>> changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is
> it?
> > Or
> > >>> is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their consumers?
> > >>>
> > >>> There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is
> > >>> outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you
> > think
> > >>> you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell your
> > app
> > >>> on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?
> > >>>
> > >>> The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make little
> or
> > >> no
> > >>> money, regardless of OS.
> > >>> So is it painful to surrender 30% of nothing? ;)
> > >>>
> > >>> But back to the purpose of this list, aren't we lucky to have
> > LiveCode, a
> > >>> development platform that gives us the power to develop for whatever
> > >>> platforms make sense for us?
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia


From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 13:01:01 2020
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 18:01:01 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJn=0SizvWHqsgz8ex50EYtLWWfk9vU8dmvg7-z1TtB8ydA@mail.gmail.com>
 <040D4B35-EDBB-4161-AEDF-02EC5E13EEC6@elloco.com>
 <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VCkitcY=+5c+=UepihyOr+=K8c2KfS4w9cc1cdqknDKng@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

People are missing something here.

Apple allows programs from Argos, Sams, Amazon (not books) , Free software
access for the yearly fee of $99.

They take 30% the FIRST years and subsequently 15% - that second figure to
me is the important one.

You have access to that market and IF you have a successful product you
reap the ongoing benefits.

If You sell 100 Apps in the first year and you are charging $5 I
don't think it matters whether you get 70% or 100% your product has failed.

If you sell a $10,000  worth in the second year you get $8500 without
having to spend as much on advertising.

The elephant in the room is Google - they charge 30% by just  copying
Apple's charges and because Google hasn't budged in 12 years Apple has no
reason to either.

A bit of maths 100% of Zilch is still Zilch. (expletive deleted for the
snowflakes/woke/offended crowd ;-) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo

As Sean said :-

"If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
high-ground (which does not exist)"

If I were a betting man i'd say EPIC will blink first.

Lagi




On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:45, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
> *platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
> THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.
>
> The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung, Nike,
> AT&T, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.
>
> If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
> potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
> nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
> high-ground (which does not exist).
>
> Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
> crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including iOS.
> They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
> can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
> one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
> purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there. I'm
> sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
> rattles laying around their prams. ;)
>
> Myself, I'd be glad to see the back of ALL of them. But in this 'world
> order' that won't happen. Someone else will just rise up in their place.
> Better the 'devils' you know for now!
>
> Sean
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:04, Kee Nethery via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of apps
> > have done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when
> > doing so. Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg
> Amazon)
> > they cannot use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are
> > required to use IAP. Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got
> > booted. Nothing surprising about it other than that they thought they
> would
> > get away with it.
> >
> > Kee Nethery
> >
> > > On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> > > because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then
> Apple
> > > don't get 30%....
> >
>
>
> > >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> > >>
> > >> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that
> is
> > >> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A simple
> > >> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you
> > can't
> > >> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it
> > harder
> > >> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users
> > because it
> > >> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
> >
>
>
> > >> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> BrianM wrote:
> > >>>> One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point
> of
> > >>> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
> > >>>
> > >>> True.
> > >>> In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
> > >>> Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914) are
> > >> there
> > >>> to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of
> consumers.
> > >> Or
> > >>> our end users.
> > >>>
> > >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> > Consumer
> > >>> behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers
> are
> > >>> willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services.
> > >>>
> > >>> Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system.
> But
> > >>> that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a monopolistic
> > >> one.
> > >>> And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is
> > nothing
> > >>> iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't want
> > to
> > >>> buy into Apple?s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers
> can
> > >>> choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing
> > >>> consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen
> if
> > >>> Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer Apple's
> > >> strict
> > >>> proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it.
> > >>>
> > >>> Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us
> jump
> > >>> through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple constantly
> > >>> changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is
> it?
> > Or
> > >>> is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their consumers?
> > >>>
> > >>> There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is
> > >>> outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you
> > think
> > >>> you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell your
> > app
> > >>> on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?
> > >>>
> > >>> The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make little
> or
> > >> no
> > >>> money, regardless of OS.
> > >>> So is it painful to surrender 30% of nothing? ;)
> > >>>
> > >>> But back to the purpose of this list, aren't we lucky to have
> > LiveCode, a
> > >>> development platform that gives us the power to develop for whatever
> > >>> platforms make sense for us?
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
KIndest Regards Lagi


From andre at andregarzia.com  Fri Aug 14 13:10:58 2020
From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 18:10:58 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VCkitcY=+5c+=UepihyOr+=K8c2KfS4w9cc1cdqknDKng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJn=0SizvWHqsgz8ex50EYtLWWfk9vU8dmvg7-z1TtB8ydA@mail.gmail.com>
 <040D4B35-EDBB-4161-AEDF-02EC5E13EEC6@elloco.com>
 <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VCkitcY=+5c+=UepihyOr+=K8c2KfS4w9cc1cdqknDKng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3jwTmwWaKxNfBQiE=2cKKpwNx4XscAeLhmM11L1dYS9je+LA@mail.gmail.com>

Also folks, EPIC didn't do that because "they thought they could get away
with it". These are all strategic attacks at Apple at the same time that
the EU is looking to maybe mount an antitrust case against them. So you
have multiple companies taking action that will either prompt a reaction
from Apple and make Apple look as bad as it actually is, or set a precedent
that can be explored later. Facebook note about App Stores, Protonmail,
EPIC, all that has a reason to be happening now. I believe soon other
companies will pull similar stunts and Apple will yield their banhammer.
Then these companies can use their cases as bullet points for the antitrust
case that is brewing.

This was not a "spur of the moment" thing for EPIC. Remember the size of
EPIC and how fast it came out with the "nineteen eighty fortnite" ad that
mimics Apple's 1984 ad against IBM. That Ad took a long time to be
produced, there is no reason to make it if you're not sure that Apple will
remove your app. This is a strategic attack to mount antitrust case, two
massive companies spitting at each other.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 18:02, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi
>
> People are missing something here.
>
> Apple allows programs from Argos, Sams, Amazon (not books) , Free software
> access for the yearly fee of $99.
>
> They take 30% the FIRST years and subsequently 15% - that second figure to
> me is the important one.
>
> You have access to that market and IF you have a successful product you
> reap the ongoing benefits.
>
> If You sell 100 Apps in the first year and you are charging $5 I
> don't think it matters whether you get 70% or 100% your product has failed.
>
> If you sell a $10,000  worth in the second year you get $8500 without
> having to spend as much on advertising.
>
> The elephant in the room is Google - they charge 30% by just  copying
> Apple's charges and because Google hasn't budged in 12 years Apple has no
> reason to either.
>
> A bit of maths 100% of Zilch is still Zilch. (expletive deleted for the
> snowflakes/woke/offended crowd ;-) )
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
>
> As Sean said :-
>
> "If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
> potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
> nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some moral
> high-ground (which does not exist)"
>
> If I were a betting man i'd say EPIC will blink first.
>
> Lagi
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:45, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
> > *platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on
> > THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.
> >
> > The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung,
> Nike,
> > AT&T, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.
> >
> > If EPIC follow the rules they lose 30% income but gain millions of
> > potential users. If they choose not to, they get kicked off and gain
> > nothing! They're just being dumb while thinking they are winning some
> moral
> > high-ground (which does not exist).
> >
> > Andre, What on earth are you talking about regards browsers? There is a
> > crapload of other browsers to choose from on ALL platforms, including
> iOS.
> > They all play happily by the rules. Which ones are you talking about that
> > can't get onto Apple because they choose not to follow the rules of that
> > one low market share platform? 'Brave' is a new one that offers in-app
> > purchase following the rules. All of the other 'top players' are there.
> I'm
> > sure any you are talking about are run by juveniles that have a pile of
> > rattles laying around their prams. ;)
> >
> > Myself, I'd be glad to see the back of ALL of them. But in this 'world
> > order' that won't happen. Someone else will just rise up in their place.
> > Better the 'devils' you know for now!
> >
> > Sean
> >
> > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 15:04, Kee Nethery via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Bypassing Apple in app purchasing is technically trivial, plenty of
> apps
> > > have done it for years and they have followed the App Store rules when
> > > doing so. Physical services (eg Plumbers) and physical products (eg
> > Amazon)
> > > they cannot use Apple IAP. Digital goods and services (eg Epic) are
> > > required to use IAP. Those are the terms of service. Of course Epic got
> > > booted. Nothing surprising about it other than that they thought they
> > would
> > > get away with it.
> > >
> > > Kee Nethery
> > >
> > > > On Aug 14, 2020, at 2:32 AM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ?Waaah, now even EPIC with Fortnite has been kicked off the appstore,
> > > > because they found a way to sell things past the appstore. And then
> > Apple
> > > > don't get 30%....
> > >
> >
> >
> > > >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes it does. There is a ton of innovation that is user friendly that
> > is
> > > >> prevented from being present in iOS due to Apples practices. A
> simple
> > > >> example is new browser engines, you can't have them. Which means you
> > > can't
> > > >> have more private engines than what Safari uses. This also makes it
> > > harder
> > > >> to bring lots of API innovation to iOS which would benefit users
> > > because it
> > > >> would allow for better and more powerful web apps.
> > >
> >
> >
> > > >> On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 22:16, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
> > > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> BrianM wrote:
> > > >>>> One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is the point
> > of
> > > >>> view of the ?client?, the one who downloads the app and pays for it
> > > >>>
> > > >>> True.
> > > >>> In the U.S. the laws against monopoly (the Sherman Act of 1890, the
> > > >>> Clayton Act of 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914)
> are
> > > >> there
> > > >>> to promote competition amongst companies for the benefit of
> > consumers.
> > > >> Or
> > > >>> our end users.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Do Apple's actions and policies monopolistically harm consumers?
> > > Consumer
> > > >>> behavior itself argues against that. Quite the contrary, consumers
> > are
> > > >>> willing to pay a premium for Apple products and services.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Andre notes that Apple exercises a monopoly WITHIN the iOS system.
> > But
> > > >>> that is a misnomer. Apple has a proprietary system not a
> monopolistic
> > > >> one.
> > > >>> And they strictly control it. It's simply not true that "there is
> > > nothing
> > > >>> iOS users can do about that." Yes, there is. Consumers who don't
> want
> > > to
> > > >>> buy into Apple?s closed system are free to buy elsewhere. Consumers
> > can
> > > >>> choose Android or any other alternative products. No one is forcing
> > > >>> consumers to buy and use Apple products, which is what would happen
> > if
> > > >>> Apple had an actual monopoly. In fact, some consumers prefer
> Apple's
> > > >> strict
> > > >>> proprietary control and are willing to pay mucho dinero for it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Now look at it from the developers' point of view. Apple makes us
> > jump
> > > >>> through many more hoops than Android developers do. Apple
> constantly
> > > >>> changes these hoops which can seem inexplicably capricious. But is
> > it?
> > > Or
> > > >>> is it a constant effort to assure safe computing for their
> consumers?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> There seems to be an assumption that the 30% cut Apple takes is
> > > >>> outrageous. But what does a developer get for that Apple %? If you
> > > think
> > > >>> you can replace what Apple offers for less money, then just sell
> your
> > > app
> > > >>> on Android and rake in the extra bucks. What's stopping you?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The reality is that the vast majority of smartphone apps make
> little
> > or
> > > >> no
> > > >>> money, regardless of OS.
> > > >>> So is it painful to surrender 30% of nothing? ;)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But back to the purpose of this list, aren't we lucky to have
> > > LiveCode, a
> > > >>> development platform that gives us the power to develop for
> whatever
> > > >>> platforms make sense for us?
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> KIndest Regards Lagi
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
https://www.andregarzia.com <http://www.andregarzia.com>
Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia


From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 14:00:51 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 20:00:51 +0200
Subject: More Standalone Building Weirdness...
In-Reply-To: <b7612f3f-2eb1-56d2-e574-63ceb01d1d51@researchware.com>
References: <fc052efc-13d8-476a-f120-b16c6f56124e@researchware.com>
 <CAEqiJn=qBSa7X6ag_LzVktO+DQrmgVeyCFU7J3H7MUvv2PFY0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7612f3f-2eb1-56d2-e574-63ceb01d1d51@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqiJnny7F1dE5Z_A-OPiYe=-8nRLTvfu+OSGrgFc5ih4hOWQw@mail.gmail.com>

What if you unload it.
Turn messages off. Load your stack and build it right away. Does that work?

Op vr 14 aug. 2020 17:25 schreef Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:

> The stack where building a Windows Standalone just stays on "Attaching
> Engine..." forever had no 'closeStack' handlers at all.
>
> I added the following:
>
> on closeStack
>     -----------------build close issue----------
>     if the environment is "development" and \
>           there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
>           the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
>        exit closeStack
>     end if
>     ---------------------------
>     pass closeStack
> end closeStack
>
> An there was no change in behavior. Under LC960 (I have not tried other
> versions), it builds the standalone, but then just remains on "Attaching
> engine..." and I have to force LC to exit.
>
> If no one else has seen anything like this, then it is probably
> something about the stack. I don't have problems building other
> standalones in LC960.
>
>
> On 8/13/2020 1:06 PM, JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode wrote:
> > Put this in every stack you build, and i mean the "build close issue"
> part
> > in the on closeStack Handler
> >
> > It was in one of the release notes.
> >
> > Maybe that is holding your build to complete
> >
> >
> >
> > on shutdownRequest
> >     answer question "Are you sure you want to stop?" with "Y" or "N"
> >     if it is "Y" then
> >        pass shutdownRequest
> >     end if
> > end shutdownRequest
> >
> > on closeStack
> >     -----------------build close issue----------
> >     if the environment is "development" and \
> >           there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
> >           the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 then
> >        exit closeStack
> >     end if
> >     ---------------------------
> >     lock messages
> >     quit --triggers shutdownrequestmessage, if not handled then it hangs
> >     pass closeStack
> > end closeStack
> >
> > Op wo 12 aug. 2020 om 20:32 schreef Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> >> I have a stack that when I build into a Windows Standalone (only
> >> Windows) in LC 9.6.0 under Windows, the dialog that says "Attaching
> >> Engine..." never finishes.
> >>
> >> The Standalone gets built and runs properly, but the "Attaching
> >> engine..." dialog in the building process never finishes (waiting over
> >> an hour for a tiny stack) and I have to bring up teh Task Manager and
> >> force the LiveCode app to exit.
> >>
> >> Anyone seen anything like this? Have any idea what causes it?
> >>
> >> Since the app does get built and runs fine, and I am under a deadline, I
> >> don't really have time to troubleshoot it. It is easier to just force LC
> >> to exit, but if someone has seen this and knows the cause, please let me
> >> know.
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Aug 14 14:46:05 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:46:05 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VCkitcY=+5c+=UepihyOr+=K8c2KfS4w9cc1cdqknDKng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VCkitcY=+5c+=UepihyOr+=K8c2KfS4w9cc1cdqknDKng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84b99f50-2307-5a70-6179-effe83069677@fourthworld.com>

Lagi Pittas wrote:

> If you sell a $10,000  worth in the second year you get $8500 without
> having to spend as much on advertising.

Oh?

The app store is a directory, not a substitute for marketing.

Simply having one of a few million indistiguishably-uniform records in a 
database is insufficient to market a product.

Relying on directly listing alone is the equivalent of any business 
choosing to do no marketing because they're in the phone book.

I can't figure out where this notion that simply being in a directory is 
some sort of instant gold mine, but it may correlate with the number of 
answers provided here about anyone making more than $500 from ad revenue 
from apps, which was zero. ;)

Mature businesses often have 2/3 to 3/4 of payroll in marketing and 
sales.  Startups can get by with half.  Less than that increases the 
odds of being one of the 60% of apps in the app store that never get 
downloaded at all.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Aug 14 14:58:53 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:58:53 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48cae692-058e-ef7c-300c-27e49937eaad@fourthworld.com>

Sean Cole wrote:

 > It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
 > *platform*! if YOU _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use
 > on THEIR platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere.
 >
 > The same or similar issues come up with ALL brands! Google, Samsung,
 > Nike, AT&T, Ford, Cadbury, so on and so on and so on.

Exactly. Let's try the same phrase with other company names we have less 
emotional attachment to:

     "Microsoft can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
     _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
     platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

    "Bell Atlantic can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
     _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
     platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

    "Standard Oil can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
    _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
    platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

If the reader is sitting in a room filled with Apple logos, it may feel 
different to read that argument when applied to companies famously 
convicted of antitrust violations.

I agree it's not fair to target Apple with such inquiry, but neither 
should they get a free pass just because we may enjoy their products.

After all, the notion of Apple engaging in anti-competitive behavior is 
not merely theoretical - have we forgotten the ebook antitrust case of 
just a few years ago?:

    Apple?s liability for knowingly conspiring with book publishers
    to raise the prices of ebooks is settled once and for all,? said
    Bill Baer, head of the US Justice Department?s antitrust division.
    Baer called the price-fixing conspiracy ?cynical misconduct?.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/07/apple-450-million-settlement-e-book-price-fixing-supreme-court


Your point about Google is well taken, raising a question of its own:

Ethically, what is the difference between a duopoly and a cartel?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Fri Aug 14 15:06:13 2020
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 20:06:13 +0100
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <84b99f50-2307-5a70-6179-effe83069677@fourthworld.com>
References: <CAG1h1VCkitcY=+5c+=UepihyOr+=K8c2KfS4w9cc1cdqknDKng@mail.gmail.com>
 <84b99f50-2307-5a70-6179-effe83069677@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VCVwRTffBG1jYvUrXWfq+aZbLoaOUt8JyOf=442z1Ms_g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Richard,

I didn't mean no marketing - it's like the folks that buy books about the
law of attraction and sit on their fata arses visualizing a BMW.

You can sit in your chair visualizing all you want but the BMW, and  bigger
house won't come to you if you don't get off your ass and meet the universe
halfway.

Same as winning the lottery - you have to have a ticket.

What I was saying is that the market on the Iphone is huge and in 1 place,
and if your program is any good it will make it big if Apple's editors pick
it.
or you at least try to JV with someone who is already there.

But good luck if your program does not have something that differentiates
from all the copycat wabnnabies.

Regards Lagi

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 19:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Lagi Pittas wrote:
>
> > If you sell a $10,000  worth in the second year you get $8500 without
> > having to spend as much on advertising.
>
> Oh?
>
> The app store is a directory, not a substitute for marketing.
>
> Simply having one of a few million indistiguishably-uniform records in a
> database is insufficient to market a product.
>
> Relying on directly listing alone is the equivalent of any business
> choosing to do no marketing because they're in the phone book.
>
> I can't figure out where this notion that simply being in a directory is
> some sort of instant gold mine, but it may correlate with the number of
> answers provided here about anyone making more than $500 from ad revenue
> from apps, which was zero. ;)
>
> Mature businesses often have 2/3 to 3/4 of payroll in marketing and
> sales.  Startups can get by with half.  Less than that increases the
> odds of being one of the 60% of apps in the app store that never get
> downloaded at all.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
KIndest Regards Lagi


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Aug 14 15:35:03 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:35:03 -0700
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <91F671F4-1096-494F-9C62-969CC8F83959@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <91F671F4-1096-494F-9C62-969CC8F83959@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <25416607-92e1-5f24-9378-1227a58a4d20@fourthworld.com>

Sean Cole wrote:

> Richard
> 
> Watch my videos I posted using Dropbox. It?s madness. And it?s been CONFIRMED and NOT FIXED for a very long time....

There was more than one video, and several others also reported being 
unable to reproduce the issue, so my question for Tom was seeking 
clarity on which recipe I should be following.

With your guidance here, I've now simplified my effort to try to 
understand the issue that prompted this thread by skipping your other 
posts, and have reviewed only the first video.

If I get time to set up a sample stack, or if you have one to share, I'm 
happy to try it here to see if I can help steward that toward a fix.


> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18818

This seems directly related to the core issue of this thread, and I have 
subscribed myself to that report. Thanks for providing the link.


> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19455

Per Mark Waddingham's comment #2 there, this one is an engine issue, and 
may have backward compatibility issues if changed.

Mark provides there guidance on using the relayerGroupedControls 
property to do such scripting much more easily, as well as using the 
relayer command for even greater ease.

It may be part of what brings about the core issue of this thread, but 
I'm unable to determine of that's the case from the information in the 
report.


> Probably FIXED but still marked as CONFIRMED....
> 
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21460

While status hasn't been changed since flagged as "Confirmed", another 
user reports being unable to reproduce it in recent versions.

Is this one still affecting your work?


> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22698

This one has a pull request submitted in May, and as far as I can tell 
would seem fixed now.  If it's still affecting your work please note 
that in the report, and if not please add a note there suggesting the 
status be changed to "Resolved".

They're usually pretty good about closing bug reports related to the 
work they're doing, but there's a lot in the DB and understandably the 
miss a status update now and then.


 > .... Frikin people who say ?I can?t reproduce? when it is clearly
 > demonstrated in a frikin video EXACTLY what is happening! Does my nut
 > in!!

Please understand that most folks here are earnestly trying to help.  I 
know people like Brian and Jacque personally, and I feel very confident 
in saying they only bring their best intentions to this list.

When Brian says he was unable to reproduce an issue, he isn't saying the 
issue doesn't exist; like me, he's looking for details which might help 
it become reproducible on his own machine so he can help further the 
process toward a fix.

When Jacque suggests trying the App Browser as an alternative, she isn't 
trying to undermine your desire to use the Project Browser, she's just 
hearing very clearly that you have an immediate need based on a pressing 
deadline, and offering a simple solution to get you through that task so 
your project can meet with success within the time allowed.


 > 2c: I wasn?t after more workarounds. I want to highlight how crap
 > like this NEVER gets fixed or dealt with and continues being poop.
 > Someone (Mark, Ali, Sam, Ian, Kevin, Heather, anyone) needs to start
 > fixing shite like this that has been around the last 6 years!

Workarounds are for us; fixes are for us and the company.

We benefit with either; all we want is to finish our task and move on to 
the next.

The company benefits most from true fixes, improving the out-of-the-box 
experience to increase conversions while decreasing attrition.

Their priorities are theirs; mine are mine.  When I finish meeting my 
own business' revenue and growth goals, I'll be happy to pass along to 
them what I learned if they ask.  In the meantime, they have no shortage 
of guidance to choose from, and much of it is mutually exclusive, so 
I'll leave their business in their hands while I attend to my own.

There's a maxim from a Chinese emperor many dynasties ago which I've 
found useful in all my relationships, personal and professional:

   When I feel the desire to discipline another,
   I first discipline myself two-fold.
   If I am successful,
   I then ask myself if I still feel
   the desire to discipline another.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Aug 14 15:48:32 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:48:32 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VCVwRTffBG1jYvUrXWfq+aZbLoaOUt8JyOf=442z1Ms_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VCVwRTffBG1jYvUrXWfq+aZbLoaOUt8JyOf=442z1Ms_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d08f343e-c671-5e7c-36f2-bca3aad38985@fourthworld.com>

Lagi Pittas wrote:

 > I didn't mean no marketing - it's like the folks that buy books about
 > the law of attraction and sit on their fata arses visualizing a BMW.
 >
 > You can sit in your chair visualizing all you want but the BMW, and
 >  bigger house won't come to you if you don't get off your ass and meet
 > the universe halfway.

Yours and mine is apparently the minority view. ;)


 > What I was saying is that the market on the Iphone is huge and in 1
 > place, and if your program is any good it will make it big if Apple's
 > editors pick it.
 > or you at least try to JV with someone who is already there.
 >
 > But good luck if your program does not have something that
 > differentiates from all the copycat wabnnabies.

I find nearly every conversation with you eventually winds up with you 
and I coming from the same place.

Business planning fundamentals used to be recognized as such, yet too 
often overlooked these days by starry-eyed aspirants hoping that getting 
a record in a database will be their ticket to success.

My only issue here, as with Andre and the EU, isn't that we're expected 
to hang our shingle if we want to be in business.  It's the vision of a 
world where we're prohibited from hanging our shingle in any property we 
may own, required to surrender an entire third of our company to have a 
cramped space in a massive shopping mall owned and controlled by a 
cartel of two of the wealthiest and most powerful companies on earth.

Just when the disintermediation inherent in the promise of the open web 
was beginning to make itself felt to publishers and consumers alike, we 
started seeing service aggregation reserving those benefits.

App store receipts are more than a third of Apple's services revenue.

My favorite period with Apple was when they made their money on their 
own work.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Aug 14 15:51:00 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:51:00 -0500
Subject: iOS 12 and browser widget
Message-ID: <73afc4c2-3129-2ac9-cf1f-c6ec308d9927@hyperactivesw.com>

I have a browser widget that loads content from the local drive on iOS devices. It works fine 
with iOS 13 but fails on iOS 12. The app was built with LC 9.6.1 rc 2. I know webkit was 
changed since we last built a year ago, but shouldn't it still work with iOS 12?

When it fails, the browser widget is just blank, a plain white display. The user is on an older 
device that can't update to iOS 13.

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Aug 14 16:01:37 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:01:37 -0400
Subject: iOS 12 and browser widget
In-Reply-To: <73afc4c2-3129-2ac9-cf1f-c6ec308d9927@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <73afc4c2-3129-2ac9-cf1f-c6ec308d9927@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <000001d67275$bac9b650$305d22f0$@net>

J,

On some but not all iOS 12 devices you must load local html files from the
temp folder. I went around this with Panos for a week before he figured this
out. See QCC 22816 https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22816

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 3:51 PM
To: LiveCode Mailing List
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: iOS 12 and browser widget

I have a browser widget that loads content from the local drive on iOS
devices. It works fine with iOS 13 but fails on iOS 12. The app was built
with LC 9.6.1 rc 2. I know webkit was changed since we last built a year
ago, but shouldn't it still work with iOS 12?

When it fails, the browser widget is just blank, a plain white display. The
user is on an older device that can't update to iOS 13.

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From brian at milby7.com  Fri Aug 14 16:03:32 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:03:32 -0400
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VCVwRTffBG1jYvUrXWfq+aZbLoaOUt8JyOf=442z1Ms_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VCVwRTffBG1jYvUrXWfq+aZbLoaOUt8JyOf=442z1Ms_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <566F814C-FFE6-41D5-8C27-BA3F2111EAB5@milby7.com>

 "Microsoft can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
   _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
   platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."

Absolutely... on THEIR *XBox* platform.

Microsoft leveraged anti-competitive practices to squeeze out competition on the *PC* platform with MS DOS.  Therefore Microsoft gained a monopoly on the *PC* platform by unfair business practices.  Very different situation.  Had Microsoft started with the full stack like Apple did, the answer would have been different (and history too - I doubt they would have been as successful).

Sent from my iPhone

From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Aug 14 16:48:24 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:48:24 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <566F814C-FFE6-41D5-8C27-BA3F2111EAB5@milby7.com>
References: <566F814C-FFE6-41D5-8C27-BA3F2111EAB5@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <58e865f8-fc48-f362-acb2-97d7160d5ea0@fourthworld.com>

Brian Milby wrote:

>  "Microsoft can do what it likes with THEIR *platform*! if YOU
>    _choose_ not to agree with their policies for use on THEIR
>    platform, YOU can _choose_ to go elsewhere."
> 
> Absolutely... on THEIR *XBox* platform.
> 
> Microsoft leveraged anti-competitive practices to squeeze out competition on the *PC* platform with MS DOS.  Therefore Microsoft gained a monopoly on the *PC* platform by unfair business practices.  Very different situation. 

True, all circumstances are ultimately different from others.  As 
Aristotle reminds us, this is why all metaphors ultimately break down.

I'm not an antitrust litigator, nor judge with expertise in that area, 
nor corporate ethicist, nor economist, nor sociologist.  I'm not even a 
philosopher until well into a second Mai Tai. :)

I'm just a business owner longing for the olden days when I could hang 
my shingle anywhere I feel is best for my business.

I'm just a computing enthusiast who enjoys open standards, open systems, 
and open communications for learning, sharing, and deploying.

I'm just a citizen, like billions of others, looking at the 
ever-more-accelerated concentration of wealth, power, and control into 
the hands of just five people, and wondering if this is really in 
everyone's best interests...


And in recognizing the limitations of my modest roles, I admit the 
limits of my relevance in this discussion on a developer's list.

Carry on where you feel it's relevant for us to make choices as 
developers. I don't believe I have anything more to contribute beyond 
the questions I've already presented.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Aug 14 17:16:38 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:16:38 -0500
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqiJn=0SizvWHqsgz8ex50EYtLWWfk9vU8dmvg7-z1TtB8ydA@mail.gmail.com>
 <040D4B35-EDBB-4161-AEDF-02EC5E13EEC6@elloco.com>
 <CABRqQSRgAH7fq0oEbmrNpwZdZonF+irg+q5Ru3bkFr+TogxDMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97496043-1937-9dcb-1792-6eccd9f2c6d8@hyperactivesw.com>

On 8/14/20 9:46 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> It's all a pointless debate. Apple can do what it likes with THEIR
> *platform*! if YOU_choose_  not to agree with their policies for use on
> THEIR platform, YOU can_choose_  to go elsewhere.

We can't all choose.

Remember Mylan, the drug company that bought EpiPen, an emergency device that saved lives? It 
used to cost about $90 and after obtaining the patent the new company increased the price to 
$600 per unit. People who required it to save their life could no longer afford it. It was not 
available elsewhere. This was not illegal but it was highly unethical, and in this case, 
dangerous. (Mylan was charged with racketeering.)

Apple controls the only outlet for iOS apps. Some of us have no choice in which mobile platform 
we develop for, our clients demand that we build for both.

I built a mobile app that reads NFC tags for use in hospital equipment tracking and the Android 
app has been in use for almost 2 years. But Apple's rules prohibited us from releasing it for 
iOS because they did not allow apps to read the UUID of NFC tags (you could read the data 
partition but not the manufacturer's ID.) Hospitals could potentially have tens of thousands of 
tags with no data, just the manufacturer's IDs. I contacted Apple dev support and they advanced 
my inquiry up a couple of levels to a tech who seemed to sympathize but said we'd be out of 
compliance and would be immediately rejected. My client reluctantly purchased used Android 
phones for our test hospital because virtually all employees had iPhones. The client also did 
surveys of hospitals in the US and found that almost all employees used iPhones. Hospitals were 
very interested in the product but were demanding iOS apps for their workers. We couldn't 
accomodate them.

I like to think my discussion with Apple dev support had an impact because some months later 
the restriction was lifted.

There is often no choice to be made. Sometimes iOS users don't even know what they're missing. 
My Android runs several network analyzer apps that give me comprehensive info across a wide 
spectrum of network features. IOS has nothing like it; last time I looked, Apple doesn't allow 
apps to access more than just the most superficial wifi information.

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Aug 14 17:23:16 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:23:16 -0500
Subject: iOS 12 and browser widget
In-Reply-To: <000001d67275$bac9b650$305d22f0$@net>
References: <73afc4c2-3129-2ac9-cf1f-c6ec308d9927@hyperactivesw.com>
 <000001d67275$bac9b650$305d22f0$@net>
Message-ID: <da517504-35b6-7cff-ab1e-03b716b60a06@hyperactivesw.com>

On 8/14/20 3:01 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> On some but not all iOS 12 devices you must load local html files from the
> temp folder. I went around this with Panos for a week before he figured this
> out. See QCC 22816https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22816

Oh wow. That's kind of weird, isn't it? But thanks, that helps a lot!

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Aug 14 17:49:04 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 17:49:04 -0400
Subject: iOS 12 and browser widget
In-Reply-To: <da517504-35b6-7cff-ab1e-03b716b60a06@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <73afc4c2-3129-2ac9-cf1f-c6ec308d9927@hyperactivesw.com>
 <000001d67275$bac9b650$305d22f0$@net>
 <da517504-35b6-7cff-ab1e-03b716b60a06@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <003101d67284$bd60de20$38229a60$@net>

By the way you can put all local html files into the temp folder(or
subfolders of temp). That works for v13 and all v12 devices.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 5:23 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: Re: iOS 12 and browser widget

On 8/14/20 3:01 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> On some but not all iOS 12 devices you must load local html files from 
> the temp folder. I went around this with Panos for a week before he 
> figured this out. See QCC 
> 22816https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22816

Oh wow. That's kind of weird, isn't it? But thanks, that helps a lot!

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Aug 14 17:54:22 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 17:54:22 -0400
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <e1d0a297f00beb03f6871a2687198181@livecode.com>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
 <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
 <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>
 <CA+JfEq9xKDX+hNGVvyajvASgkRw8oXt2Jjn+nXpw8aXwROm=JA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301d67236$cd77f6c0$6867e440$@net>
 <253471b3a7766b039668266890251b7f@livecode.com>
 <e1d0a297f00beb03f6871a2687198181@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <003201d67285$7b229890$7167c9b0$@net>

Mark/Panos,

Thanks for all your help, this worked like a charm! I got the userAgent from
a v12 iPad and v13 iPad. For any other iPad OS version I use the v13
version.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 9:12 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Mark Waddingham
Subject: Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

On 2020-08-14 14:01, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
> On 2020-08-14 13:31, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
>> Should I use the userAgent globally for all browser widget http(s) 
>> requests on platform = iphone?
> 
> Isn't the issue on iPad?

Hah - ignore this - I forgot to edit it when I realized 'the platform' 
returns iPhone (its the machine which distinguishes between iPad and
iPhone).

Whether to do it for all web-requests then I'm not sure - this is
twitter.com related thing as far as I can see.

It shouldn't do any harm to use the same useragent for all requests though
(although you might want to check if iPad latest iOS from Safari is
different from iPhone latest from Safari and switch on the machine if so).

I'd recommend removing this mitigation if/when twitter.com starts behaving
normally again though as you don't want to have to keep that up to date lest
it cause problems for other websites.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
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preferences:
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From brian at milby7.com  Fri Aug 14 18:05:59 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 18:05:59 -0400
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <97496043-1937-9dcb-1792-6eccd9f2c6d8@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <97496043-1937-9dcb-1792-6eccd9f2c6d8@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <D10358C0-C3C7-43B1-8124-1EA383F48899@milby7.com>

?I'm just a citizen, like billions of others, looking at the ever-more-accelerated concentration of wealth, power, and control into the hands of just five people, and wondering if this is really in everyone's best interests...?

Probably not.  But anything considered must be done very carefully due to the law of unintended circumstances.  Some remedies could be worse for the consumer in the long run.

Sent from my iPhone



From brian at milby7.com  Fri Aug 14 18:33:03 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 18:33:03 -0400
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <25416607-92e1-5f24-9378-1227a58a4d20@fourthworld.com>
References: <25416607-92e1-5f24-9378-1227a58a4d20@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <752782C4-12E2-46B0-A5AA-802F12D45189@milby7.com>


Sean

I really didn?t mean to imply the issue didn?t exist and was truly attempting to reproduce the environment as closely as possible to see the issue.  I went as far as choosing the same object types and structure for the card as in the video including visibility.

Is this a stack that originated in an earlier binary format?  If so, then that first bug report contains a key piece of information that I didn?t have before.

If I can get a stack that demonstrates the issue, I would like to poke around and see if anything jumps out.  If it is engine level, it is probably a bit out of my lane (although I have contributed a few lines of C++).  If it is IDE I may have a better chance.

Thanks,
Brian

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 3:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Sean Cole wrote:
> 
>> Richard
>> Watch my videos I posted using Dropbox. It?s madness. And it?s been CONFIRMED and NOT FIXED for a very long time....
> 
> There was more than one video, and several others also reported being unable to reproduce the issue, so my question for Tom was seeking clarity on which recipe I should be following.
> 
> With your guidance here, I've now simplified my effort to try to understand the issue that prompted this thread by skipping your other posts, and have reviewed only the first video.
> 
> If I get time to set up a sample stack, or if you have one to share, I'm happy to try it here to see if I can help steward that toward a fix.
> 
> 
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18818
> 
> This seems directly related to the core issue of this thread, and I have subscribed myself to that report. Thanks for providing the link.
> 
> 
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19455
> 
> Per Mark Waddingham's comment #2 there, this one is an engine issue, and may have backward compatibility issues if changed.
> 
> Mark provides there guidance on using the relayerGroupedControls property to do such scripting much more easily, as well as using the relayer command for even greater ease.
> 
> It may be part of what brings about the core issue of this thread, but I'm unable to determine of that's the case from the information in the report.
> 
> 
>> Probably FIXED but still marked as CONFIRMED....
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21460
> 
> While status hasn't been changed since flagged as "Confirmed", another user reports being unable to reproduce it in recent versions.
> 
> Is this one still affecting your work?
> 
> 
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22698
> 
> This one has a pull request submitted in May, and as far as I can tell would seem fixed now.  If it's still affecting your work please note that in the report, and if not please add a note there suggesting the status be changed to "Resolved".
> 
> They're usually pretty good about closing bug reports related to the work they're doing, but there's a lot in the DB and understandably the miss a status update now and then.
> 
> 
> > .... Frikin people who say ?I can?t reproduce? when it is clearly
> > demonstrated in a frikin video EXACTLY what is happening! Does my nut
> > in!!
> 
> Please understand that most folks here are earnestly trying to help.  I know people like Brian and Jacque personally, and I feel very confident in saying they only bring their best intentions to this list.
> 
> When Brian says he was unable to reproduce an issue, he isn't saying the issue doesn't exist; like me, he's looking for details which might help it become reproducible on his own machine so he can help further the process toward a fix.
> 
> When Jacque suggests trying the App Browser as an alternative, she isn't trying to undermine your desire to use the Project Browser, she's just hearing very clearly that you have an immediate need based on a pressing deadline, and offering a simple solution to get you through that task so your project can meet with success within the time allowed.
> 
> 
> > 2c: I wasn?t after more workarounds. I want to highlight how crap
> > like this NEVER gets fixed or dealt with and continues being poop.
> > Someone (Mark, Ali, Sam, Ian, Kevin, Heather, anyone) needs to start
> > fixing shite like this that has been around the last 6 years!
> 
> Workarounds are for us; fixes are for us and the company.
> 
> We benefit with either; all we want is to finish our task and move on to the next.
> 
> The company benefits most from true fixes, improving the out-of-the-box experience to increase conversions while decreasing attrition.
> 
> Their priorities are theirs; mine are mine.  When I finish meeting my own business' revenue and growth goals, I'll be happy to pass along to them what I learned if they ask.  In the meantime, they have no shortage of guidance to choose from, and much of it is mutually exclusive, so I'll leave their business in their hands while I attend to my own.
> 
> There's a maxim from a Chinese emperor many dynasties ago which I've found useful in all my relationships, personal and professional:
> 
>  When I feel the desire to discipline another,
>  I first discipline myself two-fold.
>  If I am successful,
>  I then ask myself if I still feel
>  the desire to discipline another.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Fri Aug 14 19:16:28 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:16:28 -0700
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <752782C4-12E2-46B0-A5AA-802F12D45189@milby7.com>
References: <25416607-92e1-5f24-9378-1227a58a4d20@fourthworld.com>
 <752782C4-12E2-46B0-A5AA-802F12D45189@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <afd915da-04b6-e883-80bf-dc50a6041db0@sonic.net>

On 8/14/20 3:33 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:

> If I can get a stack that demonstrates the issue, I would like to poke around and see if anything jumps out.  If it is engine level, it is probably a bit out of my lane (although I have contributed a few lines of C++).  If it is IDE I may have a better chance.

Brian-

I'm pretty sure this is IDE-level and not in the engine. But I've stuck 
my toe into the PB pool before and I'm not inclined to go there again. 
Plus at the rate my pull requests get ignored I'm not very motivated to 
try to fix things.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Fri Aug 14 19:17:27 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:17:27 -0700
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <003201d67285$7b229890$7167c9b0$@net>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
 <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
 <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>
 <CA+JfEq9xKDX+hNGVvyajvASgkRw8oXt2Jjn+nXpw8aXwROm=JA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301d67236$cd77f6c0$6867e440$@net>
 <253471b3a7766b039668266890251b7f@livecode.com>
 <e1d0a297f00beb03f6871a2687198181@livecode.com>
 <003201d67285$7b229890$7167c9b0$@net>
Message-ID: <97b82dd1-463a-b36f-6580-0dfcaf367c1d@sonic.net>

On 8/14/20 2:54 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Mark/Panos,
> 
> Thanks for all your help, this worked like a charm! I got the userAgent from
> a v12 iPad and v13 iPad. For any other iPad OS version I use the v13
> version.

Just curious... what userAgent string worked for you?

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Fri Aug 14 19:19:47 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:19:47 -0700
Subject: ProtonMail vs Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VCVwRTffBG1jYvUrXWfq+aZbLoaOUt8JyOf=442z1Ms_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VCkitcY=+5c+=UepihyOr+=K8c2KfS4w9cc1cdqknDKng@mail.gmail.com>
 <84b99f50-2307-5a70-6179-effe83069677@fourthworld.com>
 <CAG1h1VCVwRTffBG1jYvUrXWfq+aZbLoaOUt8JyOf=442z1Ms_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b937a207-6f7d-b34d-19c2-7e39a63a4963@sonic.net>

On 8/14/20 12:06 PM, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote:

> Same as winning the lottery - you have to have a ticket.

Winning the lottery is cheaper if you don't buy a ticket.
And the odds are about the same.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Aug 14 19:46:10 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:46:10 -0400
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <97b82dd1-463a-b36f-6580-0dfcaf367c1d@sonic.net>
References: <007EF804-5DD6-4BA1-9AFE-B2E102633F58@milby7.com>
 <802344D4-87F7-4A62-8DAF-6AEF452B3CC9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <84C0FC19-EBB7-4BD4-8E33-F50A4725C1DE@gmail.com>
 <001601d6716f$d38d9c30$7aa8d490$@net>
 <360a7673d99ff540b0ca14175ad70c7b@livecode.com>
 <006401d6718b$bf6aab00$3e400100$@net>
 <60214b934f31c33a649b1c015f8c1773@livecode.com>
 <008f01d67197$6d17b940$47472bc0$@net>
 <3f6e06592417c12da34f382f1225cefe@livecode.com>
 <CA+JfEq9xKDX+hNGVvyajvASgkRw8oXt2Jjn+nXpw8aXwROm=JA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301d67236$cd77f6c0$6867e440$@net>
 <253471b3a7766b039668266890251b7f@livecode.com>
 <e1d0a297f00beb03f6871a2687198181@livecode.com>
 <003201d67285$7b229890$7167c9b0$@net>
 <97b82dd1-463a-b36f-6580-0dfcaf367c1d@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <003301d67295$1930f220$4b92d660$@net>

There is a song to be written for
https://webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/. It may have multiple
time signatures... but I digress. Here's the code that's working for me:


if the environment = "mobile" and the platform = "iphone" and the machine
contains "iPad" then -- one can never be too careful

      switch

         case the systemversion begins with "12" -- iOS 12

            set the userAgent of widget "BrowserW" to "Mozilla/5.0 (iPad;
CPU OS 12_4_8 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko)
Version/12.1.2 Mobile/15E148 Safari/604.1"

            break

         case the systemversion begins with "13" -- iOS 13

            set the userAgent of widget "BrowserW" to "Mozilla/5.0
(Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_15_4) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko)
Version/13.1.1 Safari/605.1.15"

            break

         default -- everybody else. This could get me into trouble later.
Maybe default should be deleted?  ****REVISIT****

            set the userAgent of widget "BrowserW" to "Mozilla/5.0 (iPad;
CPU OS 12_4_8 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko)
Version/12.1.2 Mobile/15E148 Safari/604.1"

      end switch

   end if


Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 7:17 PM
To: Ralph DiMola via use-livecode
Cc: Mark Wieder
Subject: Re: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

On 8/14/20 2:54 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Mark/Panos,
> 
> Thanks for all your help, this worked like a charm! I got the 
> userAgent from a v12 iPad and v13 iPad. For any other iPad OS version 
> I use the v13 version.

Just curious... what userAgent string worked for you?

--
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Fri Aug 14 20:25:49 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 01:25:49 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <afd915da-04b6-e883-80bf-dc50a6041db0@sonic.net>
References: <25416607-92e1-5f24-9378-1227a58a4d20@fourthworld.com>
 <752782C4-12E2-46B0-A5AA-802F12D45189@milby7.com>
 <afd915da-04b6-e883-80bf-dc50a6041db0@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSR_jQt4oEwT+te86k187ey-GssFy_GsnC77Wv7m8w1HMg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Richard, Brian and Mark.

Now that the rush is over I can breathe and try to work this out, again, to
make it simple for even simpletons to understand! ;) It is, as said before,
an issue that has been an issue for 6 years, gets poo-poo'd and ignored
along with the plethora of other fundamental issues in favour of adding new
features that get partially completed and stupid expensive $500 plugins no
one will buy!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3vu13khoscqjvk/LayersFail.mov?dl=0

I've tried it on Linux, Windoze and MacOS. This is created in LC9.6.0
Stable. Not from a binary or an old version (thanks for the suggestion,
Brian, but I was working on a brand new, quick turn-around project - 3 days
to produce a fully working TV Gameshow onscreen graphics application from
_**scratch**_ - LC rocks when it's not complete turd!),

If it's, as Jacque infers, down to how layers are handled then it's
probably an Engine thing. Indeed, Mark at LC does indeed infer this too in one
of the bug reports. As Richard says, this could produce Backwards
Compatibility issues. But I never understand why that should stop it from
being fixed. The 'just the way it is' card should NEVER prevent progress
and improvement. The old engines and versions still exist and can be used
until the old apps are brought up to date. Old code and methods are often
deprecated in our business in all languages. So why not improve, ney, FIX
the g-damned dysfunctional layering? Pathetic excuses, that's why!

I've looked through all of the IDE code and it's a serious mess! Much like
the stupid dictionary browser that's got itself stuck in the 1950s somehow.
I think Turing had something to do with it. :/ But, as Mark at AHS mentioned,
even if I did find a fix and offered it, because it's a binary it cant be
easily posted up on Github and LC seem to have gone to the isolation ward
since lockdown (and about 6mths before as well). Our very breath here is
wasted because, as is noted by the lack of noise from LC despite their
chipping in on other conversations on this forum, PB is not a subject LC
are even remotely interested in. Based on the volley of issues on Bugzilla
I cherry-picked from related to PB not working, barely any have been
touched in the last 6yrs despite being confirmed.

HTML5 deployment is abandonware (I'm going to have to ask for a refund
on my two three year licences for it after all the failed promises of it
NOT being abandonware). Project Browser is abandonware. Widgets and the LC
marketplace, abandonware. Script editor, Abandonware. Monte's mergext
suite, practically abandonware. LCFM Native, definitely abandonware (
https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm) for all the
money they fed into that amazing waste of time. LC itself?? Heading that
way.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 00:16, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 8/14/20 3:33 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > If I can get a stack that demonstrates the issue, I would like to poke
> around and see if anything jumps out.  If it is engine level, it is
> probably a bit out of my lane (although I have contributed a few lines of
> C++).  If it is IDE I may have a better chance.
>
> Brian-
>
> I'm pretty sure this is IDE-level and not in the engine. But I've stuck
> my toe into the PB pool before and I'm not inclined to go there again.
> Plus at the rate my pull requests get ignored I'm not very motivated to
> try to fix things.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Fri Aug 14 21:10:39 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 02:10:39 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSR_jQt4oEwT+te86k187ey-GssFy_GsnC77Wv7m8w1HMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25416607-92e1-5f24-9378-1227a58a4d20@fourthworld.com>
 <752782C4-12E2-46B0-A5AA-802F12D45189@milby7.com>
 <afd915da-04b6-e883-80bf-dc50a6041db0@sonic.net>
 <CABRqQSR_jQt4oEwT+te86k187ey-GssFy_GsnC77Wv7m8w1HMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSSc5OjM2mKg0dYRrCBPy_dj43_SjbuYLbK01UKQa-bMDg@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, just to summarize the issue:
https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm

If an object you wish to move between group layers is on the root of the
card it is not a problem. As soon as all of those layers (groups and
objects) get nested into a group, that's when things start bouncing
around and not going where you want them.

So, thinking about it, this is actually more likely an IDE issue and a bug
rather than an Engine problem with backwards compatibility side-effects.

Here's the main script:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/palettes/project%20browser/revprojectbrowserbehavior.livecodescript#L2121
<https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/palettes/project%20browser/revprojectbrowserbehavior.livecodescript>
Line 2121 >> 2302
By the look of line 870, Layers were going to be addressed but never saw
the light of day. It gets declared but never used.

And, of course, we have the raw:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/palettes/project%20browser/revideprojectbrowser.livecode

Awww, and I love this comment at the top of this file btw:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/libraries/revideprojectbrowserlibrary.livecodescript

This library has been added as a stopgap in order to prevent errors which
> occur because

of interactions between the old project browser and binary stacks which
> otherwise could

only be fixed by forking the binary stack for the 8.0 IDE.

5 effing years ago -- ;D LMAO

Ali did this bug fix, supposedly, back in Apr2016, which is second to the
last commit in Aug2016!:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/commit/a5d137688a2e1abe72823c6ce0d7cb8fa8fb1f22#diff-d70adda35c18162b698c70f94170c58d
Because it's part of the binary where he did the (non-) 'fix', there's no
way of seeing what he did. Only the behaviour had been scriptified way back
in 2015. All the rest is held either in other behaviour scripts or the
Stack object scripts which is where it gets exceedingly messy.

This one seems interesting for the drag-drop part, after line 420:
https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/blob/develop/Toolset/palettes/project%20browser/behaviors/revideprojectbrowsercontainerrowbehavior.livecodescript

That's my homework assignment for you. See what you can faff with. For what
it's worth...

Mr Pi
'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
box!'
'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
but it is yourself!'

eMail Ts & Cs <http://pidigital.co.uk/emailTCs.rtf>   Pi Digital
Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609


On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 01:25, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:

> Thanks Richard, Brian and Mark.
>
> Now that the rush is over I can breathe and try to work this out, again,
> to make it simple for even simpletons to understand! ;) It is, as said
> before, an issue that has been an issue for 6 years, gets poo-poo'd and
> ignored along with the plethora of other fundamental issues in favour of
> adding new features that get partially completed and stupid expensive $500
> plugins no one will buy!
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3vu13khoscqjvk/LayersFail.mov?dl=0
>
> I've tried it on Linux, Windoze and MacOS. This is created in LC9.6.0
> Stable. Not from a binary or an old version (thanks for the suggestion,
> Brian, but I was working on a brand new, quick turn-around project - 3 days
> to produce a fully working TV Gameshow onscreen graphics application from
> _**scratch**_ - LC rocks when it's not complete turd!),
>
> If it's, as Jacque infers, down to how layers are handled then it's
> probably an Engine thing. Indeed, Mark at LC does indeed infer this too in
> one of the bug reports. As Richard says, this could produce Backwards
> Compatibility issues. But I never understand why that should stop it from
> being fixed. The 'just the way it is' card should NEVER prevent progress
> and improvement. The old engines and versions still exist and can be used
> until the old apps are brought up to date. Old code and methods are often
> deprecated in our business in all languages. So why not improve, ney, FIX
> the g-damned dysfunctional layering? Pathetic excuses, that's why!
>
> I've looked through all of the IDE code and it's a serious mess! Much like
> the stupid dictionary browser that's got itself stuck in the 1950s somehow.
> I think Turing had something to do with it. :/ But, as Mark at AHS
> mentioned, even if I did find a fix and offered it, because it's a binary
> it cant be easily posted up on Github and LC seem to have gone to the
> isolation ward since lockdown (and about 6mths before as well). Our very
> breath here is wasted because, as is noted by the lack of noise from LC
> despite their chipping in on other conversations on this forum, PB is not a
> subject LC are even remotely interested in. Based on the volley of issues
> on Bugzilla I cherry-picked from related to PB not working, barely any have
> been touched in the last 6yrs despite being confirmed.
>
> HTML5 deployment is abandonware (I'm going to have to ask for a refund
> on my two three year licences for it after all the failed promises of it
> NOT being abandonware). Project Browser is abandonware. Widgets and the LC
> marketplace, abandonware. Script editor, Abandonware. Monte's mergext
> suite, practically abandonware. LCFM Native, definitely abandonware (
> https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm) for all the
> money they fed into that amazing waste of time. LC itself?? Heading that
> way.
>
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
>
> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 00:16, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/14/20 3:33 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
>>
>> > If I can get a stack that demonstrates the issue, I would like to poke
>> around and see if anything jumps out.  If it is engine level, it is
>> probably a bit out of my lane (although I have contributed a few lines of
>> C++).  If it is IDE I may have a better chance.
>>
>> Brian-
>>
>> I'm pretty sure this is IDE-level and not in the engine. But I've stuck
>> my toe into the PB pool before and I'm not inclined to go there again.
>> Plus at the rate my pull requests get ignored I'm not very motivated to
>> try to fix things.
>>
>> --
>>   Mark Wieder
>>   ahsoftware at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Aug 14 23:45:47 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 22:45:47 -0500
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSSc5OjM2mKg0dYRrCBPy_dj43_SjbuYLbK01UKQa-bMDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25416607-92e1-5f24-9378-1227a58a4d20@fourthworld.com>
 <752782C4-12E2-46B0-A5AA-802F12D45189@milby7.com>
 <afd915da-04b6-e883-80bf-dc50a6041db0@sonic.net>
 <CABRqQSR_jQt4oEwT+te86k187ey-GssFy_GsnC77Wv7m8w1HMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSSc5OjM2mKg0dYRrCBPy_dj43_SjbuYLbK01UKQa-bMDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <173f03931f8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

On August 14, 2020 8:10:59 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Oh, just to summarize the issue:
> https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm

I'd hardly call 16 bugs "abandonware". They've fixed far more than that. 
LCFM is important. I know you don't believe it, but some day I think you will.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com





From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Sat Aug 15 03:40:40 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 08:40:40 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <173f03931f8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <173f03931f8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <6F833DC6-DDC7-476F-BADE-4E172841643B@pidigital.co.uk>

What make you say I will? iChat reason for I have to Trust what you say. There is NO WAY there have been no bugs in the software unless it?s perfect. The fact there is only 16 bugs listed under LCFM tells a massive story that no one is effing using it. The forums are empty other than people on the FM one saying it?s not worth bothering with - unless you can point me to crap load that says otherwise  There is NO WAY that people are using it and not asking question about how to use it unless ALL ATTENTION of the LC team has been drawn away to it to the detriment of everyone else in this community meaning that the other things have effectively become abandonware. There is literally No Evidence to back up your optimistic claims of fortitude. PLEASE prove me wrong, I beg of you! Heather has done a shed load of Blog posts on the LCFM site and NOTHING on the standard LC site! HTML5 Deployment, which i am completely dependent on except for a few other little projects here and there, is simply not being worked on despite several reassurances from the mothership it ?would? be worked on. PLEASE, prove me wrong!! Because at the moment it has left me REALLY peaved off that the only thing they have fixed is the frikin delete key when none of the other modifier keys, arrow keys, escape key, copy paste, or other simple tings have been done. In over six months since I was sat at a table with Ian from LC and literally showed him face to face the issues with it. 

With respect, from experience, anyone who says ?some day you will? is full of crap (like some 3yr old shaking his fist at you)! Empty words. Show me the evidence. I?ve dug deep and find nothing. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd


eMail Ts & Cs


> On 15 Aug 2020, at 04:45, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?On August 14, 2020 8:10:59 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Oh, just to summarize the issue:
>> https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm
> 
> I'd hardly call 16 bugs "abandonware". They've fixed far more than that. LCFM is important. I know you don't believe it, but some day I think you will.
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Sat Aug 15 03:44:50 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 08:44:50 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <6F833DC6-DDC7-476F-BADE-4E172841643B@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <6F833DC6-DDC7-476F-BADE-4E172841643B@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3217A791-D11F-4B93-8C3A-7740FAEEB0C5@pidigital.co.uk>

IChat I?m first line should have been ?What?. Stupid autocorrect. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd


eMail Ts & Cs


> On 15 Aug 2020, at 08:41, Pi Digital <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?What make you say I will? iChat reason for I have to Trust what you say. There is NO WAY there have been no bugs in the software unless it?s perfect. The fact there is only 16 bugs listed under LCFM tells a massive story that no one is effing using it. The forums are empty other than people on the FM one saying it?s not worth bothering with - unless you can point me to crap load that says otherwise  There is NO WAY that people are using it and not asking question about how to use it unless ALL ATTENTION of the LC team has been drawn away to it to the detriment of everyone else in this community meaning that the other things have effectively become abandonware. There is literally No Evidence to back up your optimistic claims of fortitude. PLEASE prove me wrong, I beg of you! Heather has done a shed load of Blog posts on the LCFM site and NOTHING on the standard LC site! HTML5 Deployment, which i am completely dependent on except for a few other little projects here and there, is simply not being worked on despite several reassurances from the mothership it ?would? be worked on. PLEASE, prove me wrong!! Because at the moment it has left me REALLY peaved off that the only thing they have fixed is the frikin delete key when none of the other modifier keys, arrow keys, escape key, copy paste, or other simple tings have been done. In over six months since I was sat at a table with Ian from LC and literally showed him face to face the issues with it. 
> 
> With respect, from experience, anyone who says ?some day you will? is full of crap (like some 3yr old shaking his fist at you)! Empty words. Show me the evidence. I?ve dug deep and find nothing. 
> 
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Productions Ltd
> 
> 
> eMail Ts & Cs
> 
> 
>>> On 15 Aug 2020, at 04:45, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?On August 14, 2020 8:10:59 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Oh, just to summarize the issue:
>>> https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm
>> 
>> I'd hardly call 16 bugs "abandonware". They've fixed far more than that. LCFM is important. I know you don't believe it, but some day I think you will.
>> 
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Sat Aug 15 03:49:12 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 08:49:12 +0100
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <3217A791-D11F-4B93-8C3A-7740FAEEB0C5@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <3217A791-D11F-4B93-8C3A-7740FAEEB0C5@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <74CCCB74-E143-47E9-8C34-5B4F0E8B3672@pidigital.co.uk>

I give up :(

Sean
> 
> 
>> On 15 Aug 2020, at 08:41, Pi Digital <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?What make you say I will? iChat reason for I have to Trust what you say. There is NO WAY there have been no bugs in the software unless it?s perfect. The fact there is only 16 bugs listed under LCFM tells a massive story that no one is effing using it. The forums are empty other than people on the FM one saying it?s not worth bothering with - unless you can point me to crap load that says otherwise  There is NO WAY that people are using it and not asking question about how to use it unless ALL ATTENTION of the LC team has been drawn away to it to the detriment of everyone else in this community meaning that the other things have effectively become abandonware. There is literally No Evidence to back up your optimistic claims of fortitude. PLEASE prove me wrong, I beg of you! Heather has done a shed load of Blog posts on the LCFM site and NOTHING on the standard LC site! HTML5 Deployment, which i am completely dependent on except for a few other little projects here and there, is simply not being worked on despite several reassurances from the mothership it ?would? be worked on. PLEASE, prove me wrong!! Because at the moment it has left me REALLY peaved off that the only thing they have fixed is the frikin delete key when none of the other modifier keys, arrow keys, escape key, copy paste, or other simple tings have been done. In over six months since I was sat at a table with Ian from LC and literally showed him face to face the issues with it. 
>> 
>> With respect, from experience, anyone who says ?some day you will? is full of crap (like some 3yr old shaking his fist at you)! Empty words. Show me the evidence. I?ve dug deep and find nothing.
>> 
>> Sean Cole
>> Pi Digital Productions Ltd
>> 
>> 
>> eMail Ts & Cs
>> 
>> 
>>>>> On 15 Aug 2020, at 04:45, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>> ?On August 14, 2020 8:10:59 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Oh, just to summarize the issue:
>>>> https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm
>>> 
>>> I'd hardly call 16 bugs "abandonware". They've fixed far more than that. LCFM is important. I know you don't believe it, but some day I think you will.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Sat Aug 15 11:02:40 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 17:02:40 +0200
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <74CCCB74-E143-47E9-8C34-5B4F0E8B3672@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <3217A791-D11F-4B93-8C3A-7740FAEEB0C5@pidigital.co.uk>
 <74CCCB74-E143-47E9-8C34-5B4F0E8B3672@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <f8b56d7f-11e3-def2-53a0-a52fbde93e2a@gmail.com>

Maybe switch over in time to ReactNative and Node.js using JavaScript?

I'm exploring these, cause it runs also on muliple platform, though 
there we're not as spoiled as with Livecode, but I guess most things are 
in your own hand then.

First thing i see is the almost instantly change you get to see on for 
example the Android Emulator. So it's more a website which one writes 
and runs almost everywhere with some extra functions.

Well a lot to learun for me (don't want to hijack this thread but maybe 
as an alternative, cause i saw on your website you do also JavaScript)

Op 15-8-2020 om 09:49 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
> I give up :(
>
> Sean
>>
>>> On 15 Aug 2020, at 08:41, Pi Digital <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?What make you say I will? iChat reason for I have to Trust what you say. There is NO WAY there have been no bugs in the software unless it?s perfect. The fact there is only 16 bugs listed under LCFM tells a massive story that no one is effing using it. The forums are empty other than people on the FM one saying it?s not worth bothering with - unless you can point me to crap load that says otherwise  There is NO WAY that people are using it and not asking question about how to use it unless ALL ATTENTION of the LC team has been drawn away to it to the detriment of everyone else in this community meaning that the other things have effectively become abandonware. There is literally No Evidence to back up your optimistic claims of fortitude. PLEASE prove me wrong, I beg of you! Heather has done a shed load of Blog posts on the LCFM site and NOTHING on the standard LC site! HTML5 Deployment, which i am completely dependent on except for a few other little projects here and there, is simply not being worked on despite several reassurances from the mothership it ?would? be worked on. PLEASE, prove me wrong!! Because at the moment it has left me REALLY peaved off that the only thing they have fixed is the frikin delete key when none of the other modifier keys, arrow keys, escape key, copy paste, or other simple tings have been done. In over six months since I was sat at a table with Ian from LC and literally showed him face to face the issues with it.
>>>
>>> With respect, from experience, anyone who says ?some day you will? is full of crap (like some 3yr old shaking his fist at you)! Empty words. Show me the evidence. I?ve dug deep and find nothing.
>>>
>>> Sean Cole
>>> Pi Digital Productions Ltd
>>>
>>>
>>> eMail Ts & Cs
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> On 15 Aug 2020, at 04:45, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>> ?On August 14, 2020 8:10:59 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Oh, just to summarize the issue:
>>>>> https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm
>>>> I'd hardly call 16 bugs "abandonware". They've fixed far more than that. LCFM is important. I know you don't believe it, but some day I think you will.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jiml at netrin.com  Sat Aug 15 13:50:57 2020
From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 10:50:57 -0700
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1597507202.92463.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.3.1597507202.92463.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <BC53CFC0-3A73-4A3C-ABC3-C1B2CB9B6D4D@netrin.com>

Ralph,

Thanks for that switch statement.

Jim Lambert



From 1anmldr1 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 15 14:52:30 2020
From: 1anmldr1 at gmail.com (Linda Miller)
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 12:52:30 -0600
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
Message-ID: <02C39387-8963-451F-A231-6465D2D7CD7A@gmail.com>

Why not check if it is going to a URL that contains ?twitter.com? and feed the correct user agent prior to going to the website since it is only a twitter issue?

Linda

> On Aug 15, 2020, at 10:00 AM, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote:
> 
> RE: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13



From tfabacher at gmail.com  Sun Aug 16 01:40:59 2020
From: tfabacher at gmail.com (Todd Fabacher)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 01:40:59 -0400
Subject: Postgres Connection Issue
Message-ID: <CACjPeOQfp7_ACeSFVrr-mtwkLzHF88Q-FcjZ9JGGE=uUbRg+kg@mail.gmail.com>

ocal tDatabaseAddress = "https://xxxxxxxxx-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com::25060"

put revOpenDatabase("postgresql", tDatabaseAddress, "admin", tDatabaseUser,
tDatabasePassword, "sslmode=require") into tConnectionID

Error Message
invalid port number: "//xxxxxxxxx-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com::25060"

What am I doing wrong? I know the port number is correct as I am connecting
with NodeJS and two PGAdmin IDEs. I know the default port is 5432 for
Postgres, but for security reasons, we changed it.

I would appreciate any help.

--Todd


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Sun Aug 16 03:43:42 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 09:43:42 +0200
Subject: Postgres Connection Issue
In-Reply-To: <CACjPeOQfp7_ACeSFVrr-mtwkLzHF88Q-FcjZ9JGGE=uUbRg+kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACjPeOQfp7_ACeSFVrr-mtwkLzHF88Q-FcjZ9JGGE=uUbRg+kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8C815EB-AD2C-470D-905F-8AA67437CEF9@m-r-d.de>

Did you already try t o remove the https://  from tDatabaseAddress?
I am not used with Postgres, but this https would definitely not work when connecting to MySQL. 



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 16.08.2020 um 07:42 schrieb Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> ?ocal tDatabaseAddress = "https://xxxxxxxxx-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com::25060"
> 
> put revOpenDatabase("postgresql", tDatabaseAddress, "admin", tDatabaseUser,
> tDatabasePassword, "sslmode=require") into tConnectionID
> 
> Error Message
> invalid port number: "//xxxxxxxxx-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com::25060"
> 
> What am I doing wrong? I know the port number is correct as I am connecting
> with NodeJS and two PGAdmin IDEs. I know the default port is 5432 for
> Postgres, but for security reasons, we changed it.
> 
> I would appreciate any help.
> 
> --Todd
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From torsten.holmer at web.de  Sun Aug 16 07:52:15 2020
From: torsten.holmer at web.de (Torsten Holmer)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 13:52:15 +0200
Subject: Browser widget does not support WebGL2
Message-ID: <8B8D2F53-54CD-4390-8B69-06B77D86621E@web.de>

Hi,

I want to test how to display a WebGL-Page in the browser widget, but get this message on this page (https://get.webgl.org/webgl2/) :

"Oh no! We are sorry, but your browser does not seem to support WebGL2."

Is there a way to update the widget?

Chrome does support WebGL 2.0

Cheers,
Torsten




From tfabacher at gmail.com  Sun Aug 16 13:33:14 2020
From: tfabacher at gmail.com (Todd Fabacher)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 13:33:14 -0400
Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 203, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1597593602.180295.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1597593602.180295.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <CACjPeORGo3BQeHWwW=vPeFtDsNBTfaG-bOe14EZ_3Hhze7Os8A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks  Matthias Rebbe for the reply

Did you already try to remove the https://  from tDatabaseAddress?
I am not used with Postgres, but this https would definitely not work when
connecting to MySQL.

When I took it out the https:, I got this error:

*could not connect to server: No such file or directory*

* Is the server running locally and accepting*

* connections on Unix domain socket
"//xxxxxxe-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com/.s.PGSQL.25060
<http://xxxxxxe-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com/.s.PGSQL.25060>"?*


MY error is the port number...there should be no issue with the port
nu,ber. it works everywhere except LiveCode.

invalid port number: "//xxxx-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com:25060"


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Sun Aug 16 13:43:46 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:43:46 +0200
Subject: Aw: Postgres Connection Issue
In-Reply-To: <CACjPeORGo3BQeHWwW=vPeFtDsNBTfaG-bOe14EZ_3Hhze7Os8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1597593602.180295.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <CACjPeORGo3BQeHWwW=vPeFtDsNBTfaG-bOe14EZ_3Hhze7Os8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B90C97A-B825-40BA-882E-75640780D3F3@m-r-d.de>

Todd,

could you please also remove the 2 slashes?



-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 16.08.2020 um 19:33 schrieb Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Thanks  Matthias Rebbe for the reply
> 
> Did you already try to remove the https://  from tDatabaseAddress?
> I am not used with Postgres, but this https would definitely not work when
> connecting to MySQL.
> 
> When I took it out the https:, I got this error:
> 
> *could not connect to server: No such file or directory*
> 
> * Is the server running locally and accepting*
> 
> * connections on Unix domain socket
> "//xxxxxxe-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com/.s.PGSQL.25060 <http://xxxxxxe-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com/.s.PGSQL.25060>
> <http://xxxxxxe-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com/.s.PGSQL.25060 <http://xxxxxxe-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com/.s.PGSQL.25060>>"?*
> 
> 
> MY error is the port number...there should be no issue with the port
> nu,ber. it works everywhere except LiveCode.
> 
> invalid port number: "//xxxx-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com:25060 <http://xxxx-0.a.db.ondigitalocean.com:25060/>"
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code



From michaell at unimelb.edu.au  Sun Aug 16 20:56:37 2020
From: michaell at unimelb.edu.au (Michael Lew)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:56:37 +0000
Subject: Scroll a field to a specified line number
Message-ID: <9CF5E7F1-6802-46A6-B601-4B06C3115D7A@contoso.com>

This is an odd one, and I hope that it is a bug. When I try to scroll an ordinary text field to a specified line number it overshoots, and if I set the field to have list behaviour it overshoots by even more.

Here's a simple recipe. New stack with a field and a button. Button script is this:
on mouseUp
put empty into fld 1
repeat with i = 1 to 100
put i & return after fld 1
end repeat
set the vScroll of fld 1 to (60 * the effective textHeight of fld 1)
end mouseUp
Clicking the button takes me to line 65, and when I set the list behaviour to true the button scrolls me to line 69.

I would love a script that works, and this a big, right?

Michael

From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de  Mon Aug 17 03:23:07 2020
From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:23:07 +0000
Subject: Scroll a field to a specified line number
Message-ID: <060DC0F7-6B72-47A6-84E2-CC0A14952444@uni-wh.de>

Hi Michael,

This is because the "fixedLineHeight" is turned off by default since a couple of versions.

So you either turn "fixedLineHeight" on for the field or you change your code to something like

---------------- -- one line
set the vScroll of fld 1 to the formattedtop of line 60 of field 1 - (the top of field 1 + the borderwidth of field 1)
----------------

Kind regards
Bernd


From curry at pair.com  Mon Aug 17 03:53:20 2020
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 03:53:20 -0400
Subject: Scroll a field to a specified line number
In-Reply-To: <9CF5E7F1-6802-46A6-B601-4B06C3115D7A@contoso.com>
References: <9CF5E7F1-6802-46A6-B601-4B06C3115D7A@contoso.com>
Message-ID: <908c758d-7446-e9fd-2e39-6344b66350d6@pair.com>


Michael:

 > set the vScroll of fld 1 to (60 * the effective textHeight of fld 1)

 > Clicking the button takes me to line 65, and when I set the
 > list behaviour to true the button scrolls me to line 69

Bernd:

 > turn "fixedLineHeight" on for the field

And subtract a line.

Because when scroll is 0, we already see line 1.

To reach line 60, we don't need to add 60 to 1.

1 + 59 = 60.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Mon Aug 17 08:36:05 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:36:05 -0400
Subject: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13
In-Reply-To: <02C39387-8963-451F-A231-6465D2D7CD7A@gmail.com>
References: <02C39387-8963-451F-A231-6465D2D7CD7A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005801d67492$fc7e9650$f57bc2f0$@net>

I was thinking of doing it just for Twitter but if other sites become stricter I did not want to have to release a new app. I could have done an OTA update of sites that needed this userAgent but I opted for the simple solution.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Linda Miller via use-livecode
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 2:53 PM
To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Cc: Linda Miller
Subject: RE: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

Why not check if it is going to a URL that contains ?twitter.com? and feed the correct user agent prior to going to the website since it is only a twitter issue?

Linda

> On Aug 15, 2020, at 10:00 AM, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote:
> 
> RE: Browser Widget and Twitter on iOS 13

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From panos.merakos at livecode.com  Mon Aug 17 11:06:11 2020
From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 18:06:11 +0300
Subject: [ANN] This Week in LiveCode 235
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq9RkFvPXjJpcMh_Jf9pqmzfy63jeLmLp4nCfiLaKy=Ncw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Read about new developments in LiveCode open source and the open source
community in today's edition of the "This Week in LiveCode" newsletter!

        Read issue #235 here: https://bit.ly/3axgp8T

This is a weekly newsletter about LiveCode, focussing on what's been
going on in and around the open source project. New issues will be
released weekly on Mondays. We have a dedicated mailing list that will
deliver each issue directly to you e-mail, so you don't miss any!

If you have anything you'd like mentioned (a project, a discussion
somewhere, an upcoming event) then please get in touch.


-- 
Panagiotis Merakos <panos.merakos at livecode.com>
LiveCode Software Developer

Everyone Can Create Apps <https://livecode.com>


From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Mon Aug 17 11:11:09 2020
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:11:09 +0000
Subject: autoCapitalizationType in ask dialog
Message-ID: <6D921E02-56C4-403C-9381-0F0AECB63A04@clearvisiontech.com>

I know you can use mobileSetKeyboardType to set the keyboard, but is it possible to set the autoCapitalizationType for the ask command on mobile?  It seems to be defaulting to "none", when you would think a default would be "sentences".

-Dan


From tom at makeshyft.com  Mon Aug 17 16:31:48 2020
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:31:48 -0400
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+8Pf1q=4CVdp-cFFBdXDes3PgQM0qxXyZG0WijsDiNaA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Folks,

I am  stress testing a rest api using liburl, I will also do TSNET

But when I open my stack in Livecode Indy, the load URL command uses TSNET

Whats funny is that half the requests are failing when it tries to use
TSNET. With liburl, 100% success rate using LC Community.

I am also calling a custom liburlcallback handler.

Is there any way to prevent indy from using TSNET by default?

Thanks

Tom


From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Mon Aug 17 16:42:13 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:42:13 -0400
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJL+8Pf1q=4CVdp-cFFBdXDes3PgQM0qxXyZG0WijsDiNaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJL+8Pf1q=4CVdp-cFFBdXDes3PgQM0qxXyZG0WijsDiNaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01d674d6$e60af730$b220e590$@net>

Tom,

Your problem with tsNet could be a timeouts. See tsNetSetTimeouts

Disable tsNet: 
dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

Enable tsNet: 
dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Tom Glod via use-livecode
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 4:32 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Tom Glod
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy

Hi Folks,

I am  stress testing a rest api using liburl, I will also do TSNET

But when I open my stack in Livecode Indy, the load URL command uses TSNET

Whats funny is that half the requests are failing when it tries to use
TSNET. With liburl, 100% success rate using LC Community.

I am also calling a custom liburlcallback handler.

Is there any way to prevent indy from using TSNET by default?

Thanks

Tom
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From tom at makeshyft.com  Mon Aug 17 18:23:32 2020
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 18:23:32 -0400
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <00ac01d674d6$e60af730$b220e590$@net>
References: <CAPzQJL+8Pf1q=4CVdp-cFFBdXDes3PgQM0qxXyZG0WijsDiNaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ac01d674d6$e60af730$b220e590$@net>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLJ3+v0PNusZcdNZL65CPqNReHGidoh-bGmXcSpQK0WQbA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you sir. That worked.

I will try to diagnose the difference between the 2 libraries in this
scenario...... if only to understand why its happening and not get burned
elsewhere.

Thanks.

Tom



On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 4:41 PM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Your problem with tsNet could be a timeouts. See tsNetSetTimeouts
>
> Disable tsNet:
> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>
> Enable tsNet:
> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On
> Behalf
> Of Tom Glod via use-livecode
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 4:32 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Tom Glod
> Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I am  stress testing a rest api using liburl, I will also do TSNET
>
> But when I open my stack in Livecode Indy, the load URL command uses TSNET
>
> Whats funny is that half the requests are failing when it tries to use
> TSNET. With liburl, 100% success rate using LC Community.
>
> I am also calling a custom liburlcallback handler.
>
> Is there any way to prevent indy from using TSNET by default?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Mobile:647.562.9411


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Aug 17 18:48:06 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:48:06 +0000
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLJ3+v0PNusZcdNZL65CPqNReHGidoh-bGmXcSpQK0WQbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJL+8Pf1q=4CVdp-cFFBdXDes3PgQM0qxXyZG0WijsDiNaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ac01d674d6$e60af730$b220e590$@net>
 <CAPzQJLJ3+v0PNusZcdNZL65CPqNReHGidoh-bGmXcSpQK0WQbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69A36572-D708-4765-B6E7-A089942A8E03@iotecdigital.com>

Hey hey! I?m back on the list again. Turns out my account DID get deleted somehow. 

Bob S


> On Aug 17, 2020, at 3:23 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you sir. That worked.
> 
> I will try to diagnose the difference between the 2 libraries in this
> scenario...... if only to understand why its happening and not get burned
> elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 4:41 PM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Tom,
>> 
>> Your problem with tsNet could be a timeouts. See tsNetSetTimeouts
>> 
>> Disable tsNet:
>> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>> 
>> Enable tsNet:
>> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>> 
>> Ralph DiMola
>> IT Director
>> Evergreen Information Services
>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Tom Glod via use-livecode
>> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 4:32 PM
>> To: How to use LiveCode
>> Cc: Tom Glod
>> Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
>> 
>> Hi Folks,
>> 
>> I am  stress testing a rest api using liburl, I will also do TSNET
>> 
>> But when I open my stack in Livecode Indy, the load URL command uses TSNET
>> 
>> Whats funny is that half the requests are failing when it tries to use
>> TSNET. With liburl, 100% success rate using LC Community.
>> 
>> I am also calling a custom liburlcallback handler.
>> 
>> Is there any way to prevent indy from using TSNET by default?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Tom
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Mobile:647.562.9411
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From charles at techstrategies.com.au  Mon Aug 17 19:01:22 2020
From: charles at techstrategies.com.au (Charles Warwick)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 09:01:22 +1000
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLJ3+v0PNusZcdNZL65CPqNReHGidoh-bGmXcSpQK0WQbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJL+8Pf1q=4CVdp-cFFBdXDes3PgQM0qxXyZG0WijsDiNaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ac01d674d6$e60af730$b220e590$@net>
 <CAPzQJLJ3+v0PNusZcdNZL65CPqNReHGidoh-bGmXcSpQK0WQbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6872DF66-B2F0-422B-BD09-799BD4981704@techstrategies.com.au>

Hi Tom,

If you want to stress test an API using the tsNet library, try adding a:

tsNetLibUrlReuseConnection false

Before issuing the loadUrl commands to see if that makes any difference.

Also note that with tsNet, multiple load URL commands can occur at the same time against a single server, where as without tsNet, I think that  libUrl will wait for one to complete before sending the next one.

So it is also possible that you are hitting the remote server harder when you are using tsNet than with the standard libUrl.

Regards,

Charles

> On 18 Aug 2020, at 8:23 am, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you sir. That worked.
> 
> I will try to diagnose the difference between the 2 libraries in this
> scenario...... if only to understand why its happening and not get burned
> elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 4:41 PM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Tom,
>> 
>> Your problem with tsNet could be a timeouts. See tsNetSetTimeouts
>> 
>> Disable tsNet:
>> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>> 
>> Enable tsNet:
>> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>> 
>> Ralph DiMola
>> IT Director
>> Evergreen Information Services
>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Tom Glod via use-livecode
>> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 4:32 PM
>> To: How to use LiveCode
>> Cc: Tom Glod
>> Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
>> 
>> Hi Folks,
>> 
>> I am  stress testing a rest api using liburl, I will also do TSNET
>> 
>> But when I open my stack in Livecode Indy, the load URL command uses TSNET
>> 
>> Whats funny is that half the requests are failing when it tries to use
>> TSNET. With liburl, 100% success rate using LC Community.
>> 
>> I am also calling a custom liburlcallback handler.
>> 
>> Is there any way to prevent indy from using TSNET by default?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Tom
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Mobile:647.562.9411
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From tom at makeshyft.com  Tue Aug 18 12:37:56 2020
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:37:56 -0400
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <6872DF66-B2F0-422B-BD09-799BD4981704@techstrategies.com.au>
References: <CAPzQJL+8Pf1q=4CVdp-cFFBdXDes3PgQM0qxXyZG0WijsDiNaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ac01d674d6$e60af730$b220e590$@net>
 <CAPzQJLJ3+v0PNusZcdNZL65CPqNReHGidoh-bGmXcSpQK0WQbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6872DF66-B2F0-422B-BD09-799BD4981704@techstrategies.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLb2rgzcuoHLZpBStAoRwLokJeyJ9NDNOAZ_sQXzXrNYA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Charles,

Thanks for that tip, I suspect that will work to improve those failures on
TSNET

My rest API is local ...written in Golang using the Fiber Library......
which is very impressive performance wise, and super easy to implement.

An interesting side note... .liburl has this 'one at a time' limitation but
its possible to get around it by having a unique enough URL. which my use
case gives me automatically.

So as a result I can actually launch a lot of requests asynchronously.

I need to really test these components well.....   so i will be posting
some results. I just got it to work reliably yesterday.

Thanks again,

Tom



On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 7:02 PM Charles Warwick via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> If you want to stress test an API using the tsNet library, try adding a:
>
> tsNetLibUrlReuseConnection false
>
> Before issuing the loadUrl commands to see if that makes any difference.
>
> Also note that with tsNet, multiple load URL commands can occur at the
> same time against a single server, where as without tsNet, I think that
> libUrl will wait for one to complete before sending the next one.
>
> So it is also possible that you are hitting the remote server harder when
> you are using tsNet than with the standard libUrl.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>
> > On 18 Aug 2020, at 8:23 am, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you sir. That worked.
> >
> > I will try to diagnose the difference between the 2 libraries in this
> > scenario...... if only to understand why its happening and not get burned
> > elsewhere.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 4:41 PM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Tom,
> >>
> >> Your problem with tsNet could be a timeouts. See tsNetSetTimeouts
> >>
> >> Disable tsNet:
> >> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
> >>
> >> Enable tsNet:
> >> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
> >>
> >> Ralph DiMola
> >> IT Director
> >> Evergreen Information Services
> >> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Tom Glod via use-livecode
> >> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 4:32 PM
> >> To: How to use LiveCode
> >> Cc: Tom Glod
> >> Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
> >>
> >> Hi Folks,
> >>
> >> I am  stress testing a rest api using liburl, I will also do TSNET
> >>
> >> But when I open my stack in Livecode Indy, the load URL command uses
> TSNET
> >>
> >> Whats funny is that half the requests are failing when it tries to use
> >> TSNET. With liburl, 100% success rate using LC Community.
> >>
> >> I am also calling a custom liburlcallback handler.
> >>
> >> Is there any way to prevent indy from using TSNET by default?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Tom
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription
> >> preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tom Glod
> > Founder & Developer
> > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > Mobile:647.562.9411
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Mobile:647.562.9411


From charles at techstrategies.com.au  Wed Aug 19 00:52:16 2020
From: charles at techstrategies.com.au (Charles Warwick)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 14:52:16 +1000
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLb2rgzcuoHLZpBStAoRwLokJeyJ9NDNOAZ_sQXzXrNYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLb2rgzcuoHLZpBStAoRwLokJeyJ9NDNOAZ_sQXzXrNYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <444D96E4-978D-4A24-9BAD-A0FF479EAEDC@techstrategies.com.au>

Hi Tom,

Using unique URLs for multiple load URL requests against the same server with the standard libUrl library allows you to *initiate* multiple requests at once, but the requests will still only be sent to the server one at a time in the background.

tsNet will send the requests to the server in parallel, which can significantly decrease the time taken to perform the requests (assuming the server can cope with the load).

If you want to see what I mean, download the following stack:

https://downloads.techstrategies.com.au/tsNet/tsNet_libUrl_loadUrl.livecode

Open this up in LC Indy edition, and click the ?Get Foreign Exchange Rates? button several times to get an average total time.

Then disable tsNet by running the following command in a message box:

dispatch ?revunloadlibrary? to stack ?tsnetliburl?

Then click the button several more times and compare the time difference.

Regards,

Charles


> On 19 Aug 2020, at 2:39 am, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Hi Charles,
> 
> Thanks for that tip, I suspect that will work to improve those failures on
> TSNET
> 
> My rest API is local ...written in Golang using the Fiber Library......
> which is very impressive performance wise, and super easy to implement.
> 
> An interesting side note... .liburl has this 'one at a time' limitation but
> its possible to get around it by having a unique enough URL. which my use
> case gives me automatically.
> 
> So as a result I can actually launch a lot of requests asynchronously.
> 
> I need to really test these components well.....   so i will be posting
> some results. I just got it to work reliably yesterday.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 7:02 PM Charles Warwick via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Tom,
>> 
>> If you want to stress test an API using the tsNet library, try adding a:
>> 
>> tsNetLibUrlReuseConnection false
>> 
>> Before issuing the loadUrl commands to see if that makes any difference.
>> 
>> Also note that with tsNet, multiple load URL commands can occur at the
>> same time against a single server, where as without tsNet, I think that
>> libUrl will wait for one to complete before sending the next one.
>> 
>> So it is also possible that you are hitting the remote server harder when
>> you are using tsNet than with the standard libUrl.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Charles
>> 
>>> On 18 Aug 2020, at 8:23 am, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you sir. That worked.
>>> 
>>> I will try to diagnose the difference between the 2 libraries in this
>>> scenario...... if only to understand why its happening and not get burned
>>> elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 4:41 PM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Tom,
>>>> 
>>>> Your problem with tsNet could be a timeouts. See tsNetSetTimeouts
>>>> 
>>>> Disable tsNet:
>>>> dispatch "revunloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>>>> 
>>>> Enable tsNet:
>>>> dispatch "revloadlibrary" to stack tsnetliburl
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph DiMola
>>>> IT Director
>>>> Evergreen Information Services
>>>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Tom Glod via use-livecode
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 4:32 PM
>>>> To: How to use LiveCode
>>>> Cc: Tom Glod
>>>> Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>> 
>>>> I am  stress testing a rest api using liburl, I will also do TSNET
>>>> 
>>>> But when I open my stack in Livecode Indy, the load URL command uses
>> TSNET
>>>> 
>>>> Whats funny is that half the requests are failing when it tries to use
>>>> TSNET. With liburl, 100% success rate using LC Community.
>>>> 
>>>> I am also calling a custom liburlcallback handler.
>>>> 
>>>> Is there any way to prevent indy from using TSNET by default?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> Tom
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription
>>>> preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Tom Glod
>>> Founder & Developer
>>> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
>>> Mobile:647.562.9411
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Mobile:647.562.9411
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From ludovic.thebault at laposte.net  Wed Aug 19 01:06:16 2020
From: ludovic.thebault at laposte.net (Ludovic THEBAULT)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 07:06:16 +0200
Subject: Android native field widget and "return"
Message-ID: <288DC6C0-512F-4957-8E66-E4144ACCD834@laposte.net>

Hello,


How handle the returnkey with the android native field widget ?

I?ve tried imputReturnKey ans returninfield without success.

Thanks !


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Aug 19 11:08:55 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 15:08:55 +0000
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <444D96E4-978D-4A24-9BAD-A0FF479EAEDC@techstrategies.com.au>
References: <CAPzQJLLb2rgzcuoHLZpBStAoRwLokJeyJ9NDNOAZ_sQXzXrNYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <444D96E4-978D-4A24-9BAD-A0FF479EAEDC@techstrategies.com.au>
Message-ID: <B7119B7A-8FEB-46E2-9B07-0C2695032700@iotecdigital.com>

I get a 404 error on the download.

Bob S


On Aug 18, 2020, at 9:52 PM, Charles Warwick via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Hi Tom,

Using unique URLs for multiple load URL requests against the same server with the standard libUrl library allows you to *initiate* multiple requests at once, but the requests will still only be sent to the server one at a time in the background.

tsNet will send the requests to the server in parallel, which can significantly decrease the time taken to perform the requests (assuming the server can cope with the load).

If you want to see what I mean, download the following stack:

https://downloads.techstrategies.com.au/tsNet/tsNet_libUrl_loadUrl.livecode

Open this up in LC Indy edition, and click the ?Get Foreign Exchange Rates? button several times to get an average total time.

Then disable tsNet by running the following command in a message box:

dispatch ?revunloadlibrary? to stack ?tsnetliburl?

Then click the button several more times and compare the time difference.

Regards,

Charles


From panos.merakos at livecode.com  Wed Aug 19 11:29:55 2020
From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 18:29:55 +0300
Subject: [ANN] Release 9.6.1
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq-uPKgj7g5E2qQogABKQMMxzdkTg+NHrHNH2Tre=e2Hfg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.1 STABLE.


Getting the Release
===================
You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
the automatic updater.


Release Contents
================
LiveCode 9.6.1 STABLE comes with more than 50 changes since the last stable
release (9.6.0), including:

New Features
  - Support for building against API 29 on Android - which is now (since
the 3rd of August 2020) a requirement for new apps submitted to the Play
Store
  - Support for building with Xcode 11.5, using the iOS 13.5 SDK
  - New tsNet and mergExt builds, built with the iOS 13.5 SDK
  - Improved security, by using a New OpenSSL version (1.1.0g)

Bug Fixes:
  - Several improvements and bug fixes in HTML5
  - Faster auto-updater
  - Improvements in the barcode scanner widget
  - Several crashes have now been addressed


For the full list of all fixes, updates and enhancements please see the
release notes:
http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_6_1/LiveCodeNotes-9_6_1.pdf


Known issues
============
- The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with
Cinnamon window manager.
- The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS
yet.


Required Software
=================
To build iOS apps with LiveCode you must have the appropriate versions of
Xcode as follows:

  - macOS 10.13.4: Xcode 10.1 - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS 12.1
SDK
  - macOS 10.14.4: Xcode 11.3.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS
13.2 SDK
  - macOS 10.15.2: Xcode 11.5.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS
13.5 SDK

There is a full list of working LiveCode/macOS/Xcode combinations here:
https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/

Note: Whilst we endeavour to release updated versions of LiveCode
supporting the latest Xcode/iOS SDKs as quickly as possible; we strongly
recommend disabling automatic update of Xcode or downloading the specific
version of Xcode required directly from the Apple developer portal and
installing it separately.

Important: Since the end of June 2020, Apple has only been accepting apps
built using iOS13 SDKs. This means that, if you wish to submit apps to the
AppStore you will have to be running at least macOS 10.14 in order to be
able to install the necessary version of Xcode.


Feedback
========
Please report any bugs encountered on our quality center at
http://quality.livecode.com/

We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at
http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93


Have fun!
The LiveCode Team
--


From paul at researchware.com  Wed Aug 19 11:34:51 2020
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 11:34:51 -0400
Subject: Old stack will not save or save as...
Message-ID: <af189f7b-cbae-df95-5f0f-2215525579cb@researchware.com>

I have a really old stack (the file ends in .mc for Metacard)

When I open it in LiveCode, the save and save as are disabled in the 
File menu. This us under Windows and the same in LC 4.6.4, LC 6.7.11 and 
in LC 9.6.0, the Save and Save As are enabled, but when I select the 
stack and try to Save As... it thinks it is saving "revRefactor" not my 
stack.

My stack opens and I can see and edit UI objects, properties and 
scripts. I just don't seem to be able to save it.

Just changing the extension to .rev or .livecode makes the stack 
unreadable in LC464, but it will still open in LC960, but still can save 
or save as (File menu items greyed out)

Anyone seen this? Know what to do?




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Wed Aug 19 11:49:40 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 08:49:40 -0700
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <B7119B7A-8FEB-46E2-9B07-0C2695032700@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLb2rgzcuoHLZpBStAoRwLokJeyJ9NDNOAZ_sQXzXrNYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <444D96E4-978D-4A24-9BAD-A0FF479EAEDC@techstrategies.com.au>
 <B7119B7A-8FEB-46E2-9B07-0C2695032700@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <040ad21e-40d0-63e8-6a7f-6f768bd533ff@sonic.net>

On 8/19/20 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> I get a 404 error on the download.

Change the directory to "tsnet" instead of "tsNet"

<https://downloads.techstrategies.com.au/tsnet/tsNet_libUrl_loadUrl.livecode>

> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> On Aug 18, 2020, at 9:52 PM, Charles Warwick via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

> https://downloads.techstrategies.com.au/tsNet/tsNet_libUrl_loadUrl.livecode


-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Aug 19 12:02:54 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 16:02:54 +0000
Subject: Old stack will not save or save as...
In-Reply-To: <af189f7b-cbae-df95-5f0f-2215525579cb@researchware.com>
References: <af189f7b-cbae-df95-5f0f-2215525579cb@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <D20D44A2-E7C4-4461-8A63-62FAC5047EC9@iotecdigital.com>

Just a shot in the dark, suppress messages before opening?

Bob S


On Aug 19, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

I have a really old stack (the file ends in .mc for Metacard)

When I open it in LiveCode, the save and save as are disabled in the File menu. This us under Windows and the same in LC 4.6.4, LC 6.7.11 and in LC 9.6.0, the Save and Save As are enabled, but when I select the stack and try to Save As... it thinks it is saving "revRefactor" not my stack.

My stack opens and I can see and edit UI objects, properties and scripts. I just don't seem to be able to save it.

Just changing the extension to .rev or .livecode makes the stack unreadable in LC464, but it will still open in LC960, but still can save or save as (File menu items greyed out)

Anyone seen this? Know what to do?



From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Wed Aug 19 12:36:22 2020
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 16:36:22 +0000
Subject: Calendar External?
Message-ID: <F0710493-5448-42BC-8009-824BE427EDD5@clearvisiontech.com>

Quick question....  With Apple's eventKit, would it be possible to create an LC External to add an event to the device's calendar?

I have a client who wants their app to add an event to the phone's calendar (iOS and Android).   Importing a ICS file is an option, but the user doesn't have the ability to edit, remove or interact with the event once it's in the calendar.

Any thoughts?

-Dan


From paul at researchware.com  Wed Aug 19 12:41:34 2020
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 12:41:34 -0400
Subject: Old stack will not save or save as...
In-Reply-To: <D20D44A2-E7C4-4461-8A63-62FAC5047EC9@iotecdigital.com>
References: <af189f7b-cbae-df95-5f0f-2215525579cb@researchware.com>
 <D20D44A2-E7C4-4461-8A63-62FAC5047EC9@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <46d5a9e8-b206-76b6-033d-a88b58206034@researchware.com>

On 8/19/2020 12:02 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> Just a shot in the dark, suppress messages before opening?
>
>

Good guess, but no winner. However, your suggestion did put me on to the 
answer.

The stack was set to "modeless". If I execute in the message box

save stack "XYZ" as "C:/Users/MyUser/Desktop/XYZ.livecode" -- no lock. 
No error, but no save.

However, after I execute in the message box:

topLevel "XYZ" -- everything now works. The File save and save as menus 
items as enable and behave correctly.

Why I can't save or save as a modeless stack in IDE is a mystery to me.

It is also a mystery to me how Bob suggesting "suppress messages" led my 
brain to look at a stacks Modality, but it did, so thank you Bob!




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Wed Aug 19 14:38:30 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 11:38:30 -0700
Subject: Old stack will not save or save as...
In-Reply-To: <46d5a9e8-b206-76b6-033d-a88b58206034@researchware.com>
References: <af189f7b-cbae-df95-5f0f-2215525579cb@researchware.com>
 <D20D44A2-E7C4-4461-8A63-62FAC5047EC9@iotecdigital.com>
 <46d5a9e8-b206-76b6-033d-a88b58206034@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <ad783749-3f49-6fac-a09e-7b3c3aa742a7@sonic.net>

On 8/19/20 9:41 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:

> Why I can't save or save as a modeless stack in IDE is a mystery to me.

The save command saves (or attempts to save) the topstack.
Only stacks whose style is "toplevel" can be the topstack.
This prevents accidentally saving e.g. a modeless dialog box.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From tom at makeshyft.com  Wed Aug 19 14:57:20 2020
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 14:57:20 -0400
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <040ad21e-40d0-63e8-6a7f-6f768bd533ff@sonic.net>
References: <CAPzQJLLb2rgzcuoHLZpBStAoRwLokJeyJ9NDNOAZ_sQXzXrNYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <444D96E4-978D-4A24-9BAD-A0FF479EAEDC@techstrategies.com.au>
 <B7119B7A-8FEB-46E2-9B07-0C2695032700@iotecdigital.com>
 <040ad21e-40d0-63e8-6a7f-6f768bd533ff@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLuwgaXjTsge4v9LFoATnDadrVCXSGaWD-YX+MXB4speg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes!! that is an important distinction.  It explains some of the results of
my tests....Even though I can send them out asynchronously, they can only
come back in sequence.

Basically I have a core binary component that must be fast and efficient in
serving and digesting api requests...I couldn't use LC for that.  I am
using Go with the fiber library to be the core service and push all results
to livecode front-end.
So I am testing the throughput abilities of Livecode (both community and
indy) to this local service.
I anticipate crazy speeds with Fiber when I test this with TSNet.

I will share my results, when I have completed all my tests.

Thanks Again

Tom





On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 11:50 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 8/19/20 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> > I get a 404 error on the download.
>
> Change the directory to "tsnet" instead of "tsNet"
>
> <
> https://downloads.techstrategies.com.au/tsnet/tsNet_libUrl_loadUrl.livecode
> >
>
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> > On Aug 18, 2020, at 9:52 PM, Charles Warwick via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
>
> >
> https://downloads.techstrategies.com.au/tsNet/tsNet_libUrl_loadUrl.livecode
>
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Mobile:647.562.9411


From danoldboy at gmail.com  Wed Aug 19 15:15:03 2020
From: danoldboy at gmail.com (Dan Brown)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 20:15:03 +0100
Subject: LibURL and TSNet in LC Indy
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLuwgaXjTsge4v9LFoATnDadrVCXSGaWD-YX+MXB4speg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLb2rgzcuoHLZpBStAoRwLokJeyJ9NDNOAZ_sQXzXrNYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <444D96E4-978D-4A24-9BAD-A0FF479EAEDC@techstrategies.com.au>
 <B7119B7A-8FEB-46E2-9B07-0C2695032700@iotecdigital.com>
 <040ad21e-40d0-63e8-6a7f-6f768bd533ff@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLuwgaXjTsge4v9LFoATnDadrVCXSGaWD-YX+MXB4speg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE3HL+52G5Yv7Z4WGLUXBo7m60MLNnvZcHNaHygzZQhko=VstA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tom,

Word of caution on using Fiber, it only uses a subset of the http/1.1
standard (i.e. it's not standards compliant) and doesn't support http2

Have used the below libs in production and can recommend their usage if the
above is an issue

Echo - https://echo.labstack.com/guide
Chi - https://github.com/go-chi/chi

Regards

Dan

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 7:58 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yes!! that is an important distinction.  It explains some of the results of
> my tests....Even though I can send them out asynchronously, they can only
> come back in sequence.
>
> Basically I have a core binary component that must be fast and efficient in
> serving and digesting api requests...I couldn't use LC for that.  I am
> using Go with the fiber library to be the core service and push all results
> to livecode front-end.
> So I am testing the throughput abilities of Livecode (both community and
> indy) to this local service.
> I anticipate crazy speeds with Fiber when I test this with TSNet.
>
> I will share my results, when I have completed all my tests.
>
> Thanks Again
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 11:50 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > On 8/19/20 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> > > I get a 404 error on the download.
> >
> > Change the directory to "tsnet" instead of "tsNet"
> >
> > <
> >
> https://downloads.techstrategies.com.au/tsnet/tsNet_libUrl_loadUrl.livecode
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > Bob S
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 18, 2020, at 9:52 PM, Charles Warwick via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> https://downloads.techstrategies.com.au/tsNet/tsNet_libUrl_loadUrl.livecode
> >
> >
> > --
> >   Mark Wieder
> >   ahsoftware at gmail.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Mobile:647.562.9411
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Aug 19 18:03:41 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 22:03:41 +0000
Subject: Old stack will not save or save as...
In-Reply-To: <ad783749-3f49-6fac-a09e-7b3c3aa742a7@sonic.net>
References: <af189f7b-cbae-df95-5f0f-2215525579cb@researchware.com>
 <D20D44A2-E7C4-4461-8A63-62FAC5047EC9@iotecdigital.com>
 <46d5a9e8-b206-76b6-033d-a88b58206034@researchware.com>
 <ad783749-3f49-6fac-a09e-7b3c3aa742a7@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <783ED126-0A31-44CC-A955-2365415F3CE3@iotecdigital.com>

Ahah! I will safely tuck that away in my storehouse of knowledge, then completely forget I know it when I run into the same problem myself! 

Bob S


> On Aug 19, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On 8/19/20 9:41 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:
> 
>> Why I can't save or save as a modeless stack in IDE is a mystery to me.
> 
> The save command saves (or attempts to save) the topstack.
> Only stacks whose style is "toplevel" can be the topstack.
> This prevents accidentally saving e.g. a modeless dialog box.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dev at porta.ca  Wed Aug 19 20:42:31 2020
From: dev at porta.ca (Dev)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 18:42:31 -0600
Subject: The Apple Ecosystem 
In-Reply-To: <b937a207-6f7d-b34d-19c2-7e39a63a4963@sonic.net>
References: <b937a207-6f7d-b34d-19c2-7e39a63a4963@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <AD989C27-3BE7-45EE-B0AB-FED12218E33F@porta.ca>

https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/8/18/app-stores

I DON?T want to restart the flame war, but this post (long, but very informative & thoughtful) seems to me to shed light on all sides of the arguments around the App Store issues. He cuts through some of the rhetoric and a lot of the wishful thinking and supplies some real numbers on market share. He also touches on the EU rulings that seem destined to change some practices on either a voluntary or involuntary basis for major players. 

I recommend a read, and if further discussion comes with a little more light and a lot less heat, then I would be very interested to hear that.

Kelly 

Sent from the iPad

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 5:20 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?On 8/14/20 12:06 PM, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote:
> 
>> Same as winning the lottery - you have to have a ticket.
> 
> Winning the lottery is cheaper if you don't buy a ticket.
> And the odds are about the same.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Aug 20 11:57:58 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:57:58 +0000
Subject: The Apple Ecosystem 
In-Reply-To: <AD989C27-3BE7-45EE-B0AB-FED12218E33F@porta.ca>
References: <b937a207-6f7d-b34d-19c2-7e39a63a4963@sonic.net>
 <AD989C27-3BE7-45EE-B0AB-FED12218E33F@porta.ca>
Message-ID: <9C459A77-8622-4A1F-9E66-7B1DD7F73F38@iotecdigital.com>

I?m on the side of having a mobile device that is out of the box safe to use. But I think that Apple should stop resisting attempts to jailbreak it if a user wants to. It should not just be a ?switch? as the article states, but rather a process that the end user has to engage in to open up the OS, with the disclaimer that the Apple warranty is null and void if you do.

As far as payment issues go, I think we have all seen in the last decade how many people are okay with breaking a thing or tearing down a thing in the name of making that thing ?better". Such an insidious word. How many nations have been destroyed because some group of people decided to actively make it ?better?? If getting the engine running again on a ship that is adrift carries the destiny possibility that it will sink the ship, I vigorously recommend against it.

Whatever is decided, and for whatever well intentioned reasons, please, LET?S NOT SINK THE SHIP!

Bob S


On Aug 19, 2020, at 5:42 PM, Dev via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/8/18/app-stores

I DON?T want to restart the flame war, but this post (long, but very informative & thoughtful) seems to me to shed light on all sides of the arguments around the App Store issues. He cuts through some of the rhetoric and a lot of the wishful thinking and supplies some real numbers on market share. He also touches on the EU rulings that seem destined to change some practices on either a voluntary or involuntary basis for major players.

I recommend a read, and if further discussion comes with a little more light and a lot less heat, then I would be very interested to hear that.

Kelly


From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Thu Aug 20 18:02:21 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:02:21 -0400
Subject: sending email attachments from Linux works but not in Windows
Message-ID: <00de01d6773d$952ccd20$bf866760$@networkdreams.net>

Dear livecode programmers,

 

I'm going crazy trying to send three attachments in one email using the tsNet external function.

it works in Linux without problems (Fedora 32), but from Windows it doesn?t (Windows Server 2019). 

I get the emails from Windows, but there are no attachments.

 

I have tried a thousand things: 

 

*	Putting the Special folder to Desktop, Documents or Temporary
*	Turning ?/? into ?\?
*	Using non Zipped files.
*	Adding ?\? or ?/? to the path
*	Adding ?\? or ?/? in from of the name of the files

 

Nothing seems to work

 

 

Livecode Version: 9.6.0 Indy

 

Test Machines:

Fedora32 (development machine) : It works like a charm.

Windows Server 2019 (development machine): It doesn?t work.

 

This is my code.

 

-- Variables

local tUrl, tEmailMessage, tRecipient, tBody, tFrom, tTo, tCc, tSubject, tAttachments

local tSettings, tResult, tBytes, tResponseHeaders

 

-- Specify the e-mail server settings

 

-- Server

put "smtp://nwd-lnx01.networkdreams.net/" into tUrl

-- Username

put "htorrado at networkdreams.net" into tSettings["username"]

-- Password

put "thepassword" into tSettings["password"]

 

-- Enable TLS for SMTP

-- TLS seems to no work, so I put it to false (it works)

put  false into tSettings["use_ssl"] 

 

-- Body

put "Esto es una prueba de env?o de ficheros adjuntos" into temailMessage

 

-- Encode the e-mail message body

put mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(temailMessage) into tBody

 

-- Attachments (3)

put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath

put "Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]

put "Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]

put "Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]

 

-- From, to, CC, Subject

put "htorrado at networkdreams.net" into tFrom

put "htorrado at networkdreams.net" into tTo

put "info at networkdreams.net" into tCc

put "Test" into tSubject

 

-- Encode the e-mail headers and body

mimeEncodeAsMIMEEmail tBody, tFrom, tTo, tCc, tSubject, tAttachments

put it into tEmailMessage

 

-- Make tRecipient a list of all recipients (To and Cc)

put tTo & cr & tCc into tRecipient

 

-- Send the e-mail

put tsNetSmtpSync(tURL, tFrom, tRecipient, tEmailMessage, tResponseHeaders, tBytes, tSettings) into tResult 

 

-- Check the result

if the first word of tResult is "tsneterr:" then

answer "Error" && tResult && "returned from server"

else

answer "E-mail sent"

end if

 

 


Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement 

Heriberto Torrado
?Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
?Director de inform?tica
Directeur informatique

NetDreams S.C.
 <http://www.networkdreams.net/> http://www.networkdreams.net

 Address / Direcci?n / Adresse:? 

USA: 538 East 85th Street, #1C Manhattan NY, NY 10028 USA
Europe / Europa: Paseo de la Castellana 135 10? Planta Madrid 28024 Spain / Espa?a

 Tel - Phone - Fax:

Phone / Tel USA : +1 917 287 5644 / +1 646 596 8787
Phone / Tel Spain :+34 627 556 500 / + 34 91 063 74 48

   Please consider the environment before printing this email / Por favor considera tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir esta p?gina.

Confidentiality: The information contained in this message as well as the attached file(s) is confidential/privileged and is only intended for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, or you have received this comunication in error, please be aware that any dissemination, distribution or duplication is strictly prohibited, and can be illegal, and please notify us immediately and return the original message to us at the address above. Thank you. 

Confidencialidad: La informaci?n contenida en este mensaje y/o archivo(s) adjunto(s) es confidencial/privilegiada y est? destinada a ser le?da s?lo por la(s) persona(s) a la(s) que va dirigida. Si usted lee este mensaje y no es el destinatario se?alado, el empleado o el agente responsable de entregar el mensaje al destinatario, o ha recibido esta comunicaci?n por error, le informamos que est? totalmente prohibida, y puede ser ilegal, cualquier divulgaci?n, distribuci?n o reproducci?n de esta comunicaci?n, y le rogamos que nos lo notifique inmediatamente y nos devuelva el mensaje original a la direcci?n arriba mencionada. Gracias. 

Viruses: Although we have taken steps to insure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice, the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

Virus: Aunque hemos tomado las medidas para asegurarnos que este correo electr?nico y sus ficheros adjuntos est?n libres de virus, le recomendamos que a efectos de mantener buenas pr?cticas de seguridad, el receptor debe asegurarse que este correo y sus ficheros adjuntos est?n libres de virus. 

 



From waprothero at gmail.com  Thu Aug 20 18:15:59 2020
From: waprothero at gmail.com (William Prothero)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:15:59 -0700
Subject: Playing movies in LC_ Docs??
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq9RkFvPXjJpcMh_Jf9pqmzfy63jeLmLp4nCfiLaKy=Ncw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+JfEq9RkFvPXjJpcMh_Jf9pqmzfy63jeLmLp4nCfiLaKy=Ncw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FF68C7C4-B6E1-442F-8B33-C24948EF0D6F@gmail.com>

Folks:
I?m building an app that needs to play movies. It?s a desktop app that I need to work on Mac and Windows. But, when looking at the dictionary and the lessons, all I get is references to Quicktime and the dictionary is hopelessly uninformative about what formats are required.

I haven?t done this in a while. But, when I searched my emails from the users list, the most recent reference I have is 2016. What the heck? The dictionary entries are ancient and the lesson is totally useless. Sorry if I?m being critical about this, but ?what the heck is up with movie players???. Have I missed something? I really hope so.

Best,
Bill

William A. Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org




From paul at researchware.com  Thu Aug 20 18:38:40 2020
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:38:40 -0400
Subject: Playing movies in LC_ Docs??
In-Reply-To: <FF68C7C4-B6E1-442F-8B33-C24948EF0D6F@gmail.com>
References: <CA+JfEq9RkFvPXjJpcMh_Jf9pqmzfy63jeLmLp4nCfiLaKy=Ncw@mail.gmail.com>
 <FF68C7C4-B6E1-442F-8B33-C24948EF0D6F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c8cc7b4-9b15-cd95-3bb5-ad95440e1bab@researchware.com>

Yes, there is a lot of information that circulates on the forums or 
lists or in people's head that probably should be in the LC documentation

In the LC9.x.x series, the Player supports any audio or video formats 
supported by Apple Video Foundation (AVF) on macOS - google the apple 
developer docs for AVF formats supported by macOS version. The Player 
supports any audio of video formats supported by DirectShow on Windows. 
Google DirectShow formats supported to find those.

NOTE while there is over lap, there are also formats supported only on 
one platform or the other.

Also, unfortunately, if you are planning on doing anything more complex 
that placing a video in a player and letting the user play it, you 
should search the LiveCode quality center for player bugs - there are 
many dozens. Some minor, some more serious.



On 8/20/2020 6:15 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
> Folks:
> I?m building an app that needs to play movies. It?s a desktop app that I need to work on Mac and Windows. But, when looking at the dictionary and the lessons, all I get is references to Quicktime and the dictionary is hopelessly uninformative about what formats are required.
>
> I haven?t done this in a while. But, when I searched my emails from the users list, the most recent reference I have is 2016. What the heck? The dictionary entries are ancient and the lesson is totally useless. Sorry if I?m being critical about this, but ?what the heck is up with movie players???. Have I missed something? I really hope so.
>
> Best,
> Bill
>
> William A. Prothero
> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From waprothero at gmail.com  Thu Aug 20 18:51:57 2020
From: waprothero at gmail.com (William Prothero)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:51:57 -0700
Subject: Playing movies in LC_ Docs??
In-Reply-To: <7c8cc7b4-9b15-cd95-3bb5-ad95440e1bab@researchware.com>
References: <CA+JfEq9RkFvPXjJpcMh_Jf9pqmzfy63jeLmLp4nCfiLaKy=Ncw@mail.gmail.com>
 <FF68C7C4-B6E1-442F-8B33-C24948EF0D6F@gmail.com>
 <7c8cc7b4-9b15-cd95-3bb5-ad95440e1bab@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <075D3148-106D-41E7-8B0D-3BC7B0D5E90C@gmail.com>

Thank you, Paul!

William A. Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org

> On Aug 20, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, there is a lot of information that circulates on the forums or lists or in people's head that probably should be in the LC documentation
> 
> In the LC9.x.x series, the Player supports any audio or video formats supported by Apple Video Foundation (AVF) on macOS - google the apple developer docs for AVF formats supported by macOS version. The Player supports any audio of video formats supported by DirectShow on Windows. Google DirectShow formats supported to find those.
> 
> NOTE while there is over lap, there are also formats supported only on one platform or the other.
> 
> Also, unfortunately, if you are planning on doing anything more complex that placing a video in a player and letting the user play it, you should search the LiveCode quality center for player bugs - there are many dozens. Some minor, some more serious.
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/20/2020 6:15 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
>> Folks:
>> I?m building an app that needs to play movies. It?s a desktop app that I need to work on Mac and Windows. But, when looking at the dictionary and the lessons, all I get is references to Quicktime and the dictionary is hopelessly uninformative about what formats are required.
>> 
>> I haven?t done this in a while. But, when I searched my emails from the users list, the most recent reference I have is 2016. What the heck? The dictionary entries are ancient and the lesson is totally useless. Sorry if I?m being critical about this, but ?what the heck is up with movie players???. Have I missed something? I really hope so.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Bill
>> 
>> William A. Prothero
>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Fri Aug 21 02:40:08 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:40:08 +0200
Subject: sending email attachments from Linux works but not in Windows
In-Reply-To: <00de01d6773d$952ccd20$bf866760$@networkdreams.net>
References: <00de01d6773d$952ccd20$bf866760$@networkdreams.net>
Message-ID: <779E40F4-7F57-4437-9E40-B0B19088E67C@m-r-d.de>

Heriberto,

are you sure that posted code is working on Linux?

Anyway, i would say this part of you script is wrong

-- Attachments (3)

put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath

put "Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]

put "Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]

put "Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]


tAttachments[]["filepath"] must contain the full file path to the file 
but in your case 

tAttachments[1]["filepath"] 	contains Questions1.zip
tAttachments[2]["filepath"] 	contains Questions2.zip
tAttachments[3]["filepath"] 	contains Questions3.zip

without the full path

Assuming that the files you want to be attached are located on the Desktop...
Change your thar part of you code as follows  and it should work

-- Attachments (3)
put specialfolderpath("Home")" & "/Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]

put specialfolderpath("Home") & "/Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]

put specialfolderpath("Home") & /"/Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]

Now tAttachments[...]["filepath"] array contains the complete paths to the files



The line 
put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath 
can be deleted.


Regards,

Matthias



-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 21.08.2020 um 00:02 schrieb Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> -- Attachments (3)
> 
> put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath
> 
> put "Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]
> 
> put "Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]
> 
> put "Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]



From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Fri Aug 21 11:23:43 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (htorrado at networkdreams.net)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:23:43 +0000
Subject: sending email attachments from Linux works but not in Windows
In-Reply-To: <779E40F4-7F57-4437-9E40-B0B19088E67C@m-r-d.de>
References: <00de01d6773d$952ccd20$bf866760$@networkdreams.net>
 <779E40F4-7F57-4437-9E40-B0B19088E67C@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <ea4ddc66008317be49b5ffe74291d8d1@networkdreams.net>

Hi Mathias, 

Yes, it works on Linux but not in Windows (it is weird). 

I'm going to check your recommendations and I'll tell you if it works. 

Thank you very much! 

El 21-08-2020 06:40, matthias rebbe via use-livecode escribi?:

> Heriberto,
> 
> are you sure that posted code is working on Linux?
> 
> Anyway, i would say this part of you script is wrong
> 
> -- Attachments (3)
> 
> put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath
> 
> put "Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]
> 
> put "Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]
> 
> put "Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]
> 
> tAttachments[]["filepath"] must contain the full file path to the file 
> but in your case 
> 
> tAttachments[1]["filepath"]     contains Questions1.zip
> tAttachments[2]["filepath"]     contains Questions2.zip
> tAttachments[3]["filepath"]     contains Questions3.zip
> 
> without the full path
> 
> Assuming that the files you want to be attached are located on the Desktop...
> Change your thar part of you code as follows  and it should work
> 
> -- Attachments (3)
> put specialfolderpath("Home")" & "/Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]
> 
> put specialfolderpath("Home") & "/Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]
> 
> put specialfolderpath("Home") & /"/Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]
> 
> Now tAttachments[...]["filepath"] array contains the complete paths to the files
> 
> The line 
> put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath 
> can be deleted.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Matthias
> 
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
> 
>> Am 21.08.2020 um 00:02 schrieb Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> -- Attachments (3)
>> 
>> put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath
>> 
>> put "Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]
>> 
>> put "Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]
>> 
>> put "Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Fri Aug 21 11:39:35 2020
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:39:35 +0000
Subject: iOS app denied:  AVAudioSession 
Message-ID: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>

I recently uploaded an iOS app to Apple with no problems.   After it was approved and released, my client wanted to change the app description in the app store.  As you know, you can only do this as a new version (stupid!).  So, I made a new build of the same exact app (without changing a line of code) and submitted it to Apple.   It was denied because:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Guideline 2.5.1 - Performance - Software Requirements

During review, we were prompted to provide consent to use the microphone. However, we were not able to locate any features in your app that use the microphone for audio recording.

Next Steps

The microphone consent request is generated by the use of either AVAudioSessionCategoryRecord or AVAudioSessionCategoryPlayAndRecord audio categories. If you do not intend to record audio with your app, please choose the AVAudioSession session category that fits your app's needs or modify your app to include audio-recording features.

If these features are located in your app, please reply to this message in Resolution Center to provide information on how to locate them.

Please see attached screenshot for details.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The app doesn't use the Microphone.  The ONLY difference I can see between this build and the previous is the first build was with LC Business 9.6.1 (rc 2), and this build is with LC Business 9.6.1.  I do have "mergAV" selected in Inclusions in the Standalone App Settings (I am using the camera to capture a barcode), but "mergMicrophone" is not selected.   Is there an new issue in LC Business 9.6.1 that is setting the AVAudioSession to something is shouldn't?   Maybe I should just rebuild with LC Business 9.6.1 (rc 2) and submit?

Any thoughts?   Client is waiting for this post!

Thank you in advance,
-Dan


From mark at livecode.com  Fri Aug 21 11:52:37 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:52:37 +0100
Subject: iOS app denied:  AVAudioSession
In-Reply-To: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>
References: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>
Message-ID: <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-21 16:39, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote:
> Any thoughts?   Client is waiting for this post!

The only difference between 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2 was the removal of some 
no-longer-used references to an Ad SDK on Android. 9.6.1 was the same as 
9.6.1-rc-2 (except for version).

Apple update their review processes all the time, so it is possible they 
changed something between the two app submissions.

The most important question here is: Can you reproduce the request for 
microphone access which Apple observed?

If not, then you need to find out how they did and dispute the rejection 
- it could be human error on their side...

If you can, then it suggests that you might have some code buried 
somewhere setting the audio category - or use of the video camera is 
using a default category Apple doesn't like.

Make sure you aren't asking for a video camera with both audio and video 
- i.e. just audio only.

Failing that, there is mergAVAudioSessionSetCategory - you could try 
explicitly setting the category to "ambient" on startup.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Fri Aug 21 12:14:40 2020
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:14:40 +0000
Subject: iOS app denied:  AVAudioSession
In-Reply-To: <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>
References: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>
 <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <6413010F-7453-4B32-B072-0D185D751BA5@clearvisiontech.com>

Mark,

THANK YOU for the quick reply.   I wasn't using 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2, I was using 9.6.1-rc-2 and the final release of 9.6.1.

>> Can you reproduce the request for microphone access which Apple observed?
I cannot.  I installed the submitted app (using TestFlight) on my iPhone X and I DID NOT get the Microphone request dialog.

Apple did provide a screen shot of the dialog they see, but it's strange...   Why is it in a different language?   And, could this have anything to do with the issue?
See it here:  https://www.clearvisiontech.com/temp/fromApple.png

What would you suggest I do next?


Thank you!
 
Dan Friedman
CEO, ClearVision Technologies, LLC
Voice: 909/484-2052
http://www.clearvisiontech.com
 

?On 8/21/20, 8:53 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    On 2020-08-21 16:39, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote:
    > Any thoughts?   Client is waiting for this post!

    The only difference between 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2 was the removal of some 
    no-longer-used references to an Ad SDK on Android. 9.6.1 was the same as 
    9.6.1-rc-2 (except for version).

    Apple update their review processes all the time, so it is possible they 
    changed something between the two app submissions.

    The most important question here is: Can you reproduce the request for 
    microphone access which Apple observed?

    If not, then you need to find out how they did and dispute the rejection 
    - it could be human error on their side...

    If you can, then it suggests that you might have some code buried 
    somewhere setting the audio category - or use of the video camera is 
    using a default category Apple doesn't like.

    Make sure you aren't asking for a video camera with both audio and video 
    - i.e. just audio only.

    Failing that, there is mergAVAudioSessionSetCategory - you could try 
    explicitly setting the category to "ambient" on startup.

    Warmest Regards,

    Mark.

    -- 
    Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
    LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Fri Aug 21 12:44:18 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 12:44:18 -0400
Subject: sending email attachments from Linux works but not in Windows
In-Reply-To: <779E40F4-7F57-4437-9E40-B0B19088E67C@m-r-d.de>
References: <00de01d6773d$952ccd20$bf866760$@networkdreams.net>
 <779E40F4-7F57-4437-9E40-B0B19088E67C@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <006d01d677da$5146f930$f3d4eb90$@networkdreams.net>

Hi Matthias,

I really appreciate your tip: It works.

Best,
Hery

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of
matthias rebbe via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 2:40 AM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de
Subject: Re: sending email attachments from Linux works but not in Windows

Heriberto,

are you sure that posted code is working on Linux?

Anyway, i would say this part of you script is wrong

-- Attachments (3)

put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath

put "Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]

put "Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]

put "Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]


tAttachments[]["filepath"] must contain the full file path to the file but
in your case 

tAttachments[1]["filepath"] 	contains Questions1.zip
tAttachments[2]["filepath"] 	contains Questions2.zip
tAttachments[3]["filepath"] 	contains Questions3.zip

without the full path

Assuming that the files you want to be attached are located on the
Desktop...
Change your thar part of you code as follows  and it should work

-- Attachments (3)
put specialfolderpath("Home")" & "/Questions1.zip" into
tAttachments[1]["filepath"]

put specialfolderpath("Home") & "/Questions2.zip" into
tAttachments[2]["filepath"]

put specialfolderpath("Home") & /"/Questions3.zip" into
tAttachments[3]["filepath"]

Now tAttachments[...]["filepath"] array contains the complete paths to the
files



The line
put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath can be deleted.


Regards,

Matthias



-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 21.08.2020 um 00:02 schrieb Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> -- Attachments (3)
> 
> put specialfolderpath("Home") into filepath
> 
> put "Questions1.zip" into tAttachments[1]["filepath"]
> 
> put "Questions2.zip" into tAttachments[2]["filepath"]
> 
> put "Questions3.zip" into tAttachments[3]["filepath"]

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Aug 21 13:50:27 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 13:50:27 -0400
Subject: iOS app denied:  AVAudioSession
In-Reply-To: <6413010F-7453-4B32-B072-0D185D751BA5@clearvisiontech.com>
References: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>
 <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>
 <6413010F-7453-4B32-B072-0D185D751BA5@clearvisiontech.com>
Message-ID: <006f01d677e3$9106c5b0$b3145110$@net>

Dan,

Why is there a foreign language in the left top bar header to the right of the time? I spent some time in Japan and this message suspiciously looks like katakana and kanji.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Dan Friedman via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 12:15 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Dan Friedman
Subject: Re: iOS app denied: AVAudioSession

Mark,

THANK YOU for the quick reply.   I wasn't using 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2, I was using 9.6.1-rc-2 and the final release of 9.6.1.

>> Can you reproduce the request for microphone access which Apple observed?
I cannot.  I installed the submitted app (using TestFlight) on my iPhone X and I DID NOT get the Microphone request dialog.

Apple did provide a screen shot of the dialog they see, but it's strange...   Why is it in a different language?   And, could this have anything to do with the issue?
See it here:  https://www.clearvisiontech.com/temp/fromApple.png

What would you suggest I do next?


Thank you!
 
Dan Friedman
CEO, ClearVision Technologies, LLC
Voice: 909/484-2052
http://www.clearvisiontech.com
 

?On 8/21/20, 8:53 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    On 2020-08-21 16:39, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote:
    > Any thoughts?   Client is waiting for this post!

    The only difference between 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2 was the removal of some 
    no-longer-used references to an Ad SDK on Android. 9.6.1 was the same as 
    9.6.1-rc-2 (except for version).

    Apple update their review processes all the time, so it is possible they 
    changed something between the two app submissions.

    The most important question here is: Can you reproduce the request for 
    microphone access which Apple observed?

    If not, then you need to find out how they did and dispute the rejection 
    - it could be human error on their side...

    If you can, then it suggests that you might have some code buried 
    somewhere setting the audio category - or use of the video camera is 
    using a default category Apple doesn't like.

    Make sure you aren't asking for a video camera with both audio and video 
    - i.e. just audio only.

    Failing that, there is mergAVAudioSessionSetCategory - you could try 
    explicitly setting the category to "ambient" on startup.

    Warmest Regards,

    Mark.

    -- 
    Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
    LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Aug 21 14:00:49 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 14:00:49 -0400
Subject: Mobile Field Default Background Color Behavior Change
In-Reply-To: <6413010F-7453-4B32-B072-0D185D751BA5@clearvisiontech.com>
References: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>
 <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>
 <6413010F-7453-4B32-B072-0D185D751BA5@clearvisiontech.com>
Message-ID: <007001d677e5$0375db80$0a619280$@net>

I just built an app with 9.6.1 and it seems that the behavior of an opaque field with no backgroundColor set has changed on mobile. In the IDE with no backgroundColor set the background is white and on mobile it's now transparent(as if opaque is false). I set the backgroundColor to white and the IDE looks the same as it always did and now the mobile app looks like the IDE again.
Note: I had 30% transparency with srCopy.

Did I miss a release note?

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net




From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Fri Aug 21 14:00:36 2020
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:00:36 +0000
Subject: iOS app denied:  AVAudioSession
In-Reply-To: <006f01d677e3$9106c5b0$b3145110$@net>
References: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>
 <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>
 <6413010F-7453-4B32-B072-0D185D751BA5@clearvisiontech.com>
 <006f01d677e3$9106c5b0$b3145110$@net>
Message-ID: <6E941F2E-FDF2-407B-A0C1-DAE7D916CA54@clearvisiontech.com>

Ralph,

I have no idea.  This is the screen shot that Apple included in the "Resolution Center" when they denied the app.   I assume they are using people in another country to review apps?

-Dan
 

?On 8/21/20, 10:49 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Dan,

    Why is there a foreign language in the left top bar header to the right of the time? I spent some time in Japan and this message suspiciously looks like katakana and kanji.

    Ralph DiMola
    IT Director
    Evergreen Information Services
    rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


    -----Original Message-----
    From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Dan Friedman via use-livecode
    Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 12:15 PM
    To: How to use LiveCode
    Cc: Dan Friedman
    Subject: Re: iOS app denied: AVAudioSession

    Mark,

    THANK YOU for the quick reply.   I wasn't using 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2, I was using 9.6.1-rc-2 and the final release of 9.6.1.

    >> Can you reproduce the request for microphone access which Apple observed?
    I cannot.  I installed the submitted app (using TestFlight) on my iPhone X and I DID NOT get the Microphone request dialog.

    Apple did provide a screen shot of the dialog they see, but it's strange...   Why is it in a different language?   And, could this have anything to do with the issue?
    See it here:  https://www.clearvisiontech.com/temp/fromApple.png

    What would you suggest I do next?


    Thank you!

    Dan Friedman
    CEO, ClearVision Technologies, LLC
    Voice: 909/484-2052
    http://www.clearvisiontech.com


    On 8/21/20, 8:53 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

        On 2020-08-21 16:39, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote:
        > Any thoughts?   Client is waiting for this post!

        The only difference between 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2 was the removal of some 
        no-longer-used references to an Ad SDK on Android. 9.6.1 was the same as 
        9.6.1-rc-2 (except for version).

        Apple update their review processes all the time, so it is possible they 
        changed something between the two app submissions.

        The most important question here is: Can you reproduce the request for 
        microphone access which Apple observed?

        If not, then you need to find out how they did and dispute the rejection 
        - it could be human error on their side...

        If you can, then it suggests that you might have some code buried 
        somewhere setting the audio category - or use of the video camera is 
        using a default category Apple doesn't like.

        Make sure you aren't asking for a video camera with both audio and video 
        - i.e. just audio only.

        Failing that, there is mergAVAudioSessionSetCategory - you could try 
        explicitly setting the category to "ambient" on startup.

        Warmest Regards,

        Mark.

        -- 
        Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
        LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

        _______________________________________________
        use-livecode mailing list
        use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
        Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
        http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


    _______________________________________________
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    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Aug 21 14:20:09 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 14:20:09 -0400
Subject: iOS app denied:  AVAudioSession
In-Reply-To: <6E941F2E-FDF2-407B-A0C1-DAE7D916CA54@clearvisiontech.com>
References: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>
 <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>
 <6413010F-7453-4B32-B072-0D185D751BA5@clearvisiontech.com>
 <006f01d677e3$9106c5b0$b3145110$@net>
 <6E941F2E-FDF2-407B-A0C1-DAE7D916CA54@clearvisiontech.com>
Message-ID: <007101d677e7$b6d177a0$247466e0$@net>

Dan,

I have never seen anything like this in the 8 years of having iOS apps reviewed (and rejected). I have used location but not audio.
I just had three 9.6.0 apps approved last weekend. I'm planning to submit a 9.6.1 app today and will let you know if I get a strange rejection.
 
Just spit-balling here but I would be inclined to submit a new binary with no changes and bump up the version and see what happens.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Friedman [mailto:dan at clearvisiontech.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 2:01 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Ralph DiMola
Subject: Re: iOS app denied: AVAudioSession

Ralph,

I have no idea.  This is the screen shot that Apple included in the "Resolution Center" when they denied the app.   I assume they are using people in another country to review apps?

-Dan
 

?On 8/21/20, 10:49 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Dan,

    Why is there a foreign language in the left top bar header to the right of the time? I spent some time in Japan and this message suspiciously looks like katakana and kanji.

    Ralph DiMola
    IT Director
    Evergreen Information Services
    rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


    -----Original Message-----
    From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Dan Friedman via use-livecode
    Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 12:15 PM
    To: How to use LiveCode
    Cc: Dan Friedman
    Subject: Re: iOS app denied: AVAudioSession

    Mark,

    THANK YOU for the quick reply.   I wasn't using 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2, I was using 9.6.1-rc-2 and the final release of 9.6.1.

    >> Can you reproduce the request for microphone access which Apple observed?
    I cannot.  I installed the submitted app (using TestFlight) on my iPhone X and I DID NOT get the Microphone request dialog.

    Apple did provide a screen shot of the dialog they see, but it's strange...   Why is it in a different language?   And, could this have anything to do with the issue?
    See it here:  https://www.clearvisiontech.com/temp/fromApple.png

    What would you suggest I do next?


    Thank you!

    Dan Friedman
    CEO, ClearVision Technologies, LLC
    Voice: 909/484-2052
    http://www.clearvisiontech.com


    On 8/21/20, 8:53 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

        On 2020-08-21 16:39, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote:
        > Any thoughts?   Client is waiting for this post!

        The only difference between 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2 was the removal of some 
        no-longer-used references to an Ad SDK on Android. 9.6.1 was the same as 
        9.6.1-rc-2 (except for version).

        Apple update their review processes all the time, so it is possible they 
        changed something between the two app submissions.

        The most important question here is: Can you reproduce the request for 
        microphone access which Apple observed?

        If not, then you need to find out how they did and dispute the rejection 
        - it could be human error on their side...

        If you can, then it suggests that you might have some code buried 
        somewhere setting the audio category - or use of the video camera is 
        using a default category Apple doesn't like.

        Make sure you aren't asking for a video camera with both audio and video 
        - i.e. just audio only.

        Failing that, there is mergAVAudioSessionSetCategory - you could try 
        explicitly setting the category to "ambient" on startup.

        Warmest Regards,

        Mark.

        -- 
        Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
        LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

        _______________________________________________
        use-livecode mailing list
        use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
        Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
        http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


    _______________________________________________
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    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode





From brahma at hindu.org  Sat Aug 22 09:35:28 2020
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:35:28 +0000
Subject: How to download Xcode 11.4
Message-ID: <B0499AA6-0BB2-4812-9A28-5DFA4E2B03CC@hindu.org>

https://developer.apple.com/download/

Goes now to a beta tester URL...

It does not go ?to the "universal" list of past Xcode that can download 11.4

What the URL? I can't find it at the 

https://developer.apple.com

??
Currently the Release Notes have 
-------
We currently support building against the following versions of the iOS SDK:
10.2 (included in Xcode 8.2)
11.2 (included in Xcode 9.2)
12.1 (included in Xcode 10.1)
13.2 (included in Xcode 11.3)
13.5 (included in Xcode 11.5)
---------
Release goes to Xcode 11.5, 11.3
Not Xcode 11.4??

BR


From mkoob at rogers.com  Sat Aug 22 10:21:26 2020
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:21:26 -0400
Subject: How to download Xcode 11.4
In-Reply-To: <B0499AA6-0BB2-4812-9A28-5DFA4E2B03CC@hindu.org>
References: <B0499AA6-0BB2-4812-9A28-5DFA4E2B03CC@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <178A8912-DF65-4939-9050-76738915789B@rogers.com>

Hi

I found the following.   https://developer.apple.com/download/more/ <https://developer.apple.com/download/more/>
It has older versions  including 11.4


Martin



> On Aug 22, 2020, at 9:35 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> https://developer.apple.com/download/
> 
> Goes now to a beta tester URL...
> 
> It does not go ?to the "universal" list of past Xcode that can download 11.4
> 
> What the URL? I can't find it at the 
> 
> https://developer.apple.com
> 
> ??
> Currently the Release Notes have 
> -------
> We currently support building against the following versions of the iOS SDK:
> 10.2 (included in Xcode 8.2)
> 11.2 (included in Xcode 9.2)
> 12.1 (included in Xcode 10.1)
> 13.2 (included in Xcode 11.3)
> 13.5 (included in Xcode 11.5)
> ---------
> Release goes to Xcode 11.5, 11.3
> Not Xcode 11.4??
> 
> BR
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From brahma at hindu.org  Sat Aug 22 13:52:26 2020
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 17:52:26 +0000
Subject: How to download Xcode 11.4
In-Reply-To: <178A8912-DF65-4939-9050-76738915789B@rogers.com>
References: <B0499AA6-0BB2-4812-9A28-5DFA4E2B03CC@hindu.org>
 <178A8912-DF65-4939-9050-76738915789B@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <EC2860F7-1BD4-49AC-A776-533D47377602@hindu.org>

OK !

?On 8/22/20, 4:22 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Martin Koob via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Hi

    I found the following.   https://developer.apple.com/download/more/<https://developer.apple.com/download/more/>
    It has older versions  including 11.4


    Martin


From brahma at hindu.org  Sat Aug 22 15:26:27 2020
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 19:26:27 +0000
Subject: How to download Xcode 11.4
In-Reply-To: <EC2860F7-1BD4-49AC-A776-533D47377602@hindu.org>
References: <B0499AA6-0BB2-4812-9A28-5DFA4E2B03CC@hindu.org>
 <178A8912-DF65-4939-9050-76738915789B@rogers.com>
 <EC2860F7-1BD4-49AC-A776-533D47377602@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <E33DFF01-A923-4C82-8754-D61641BB03AD@hindu.org>

Well, Xcode 11.4 because I have OSX 10.15.5

But I load it, it does not come with iOS SDK

	The chosen folder is not a valid iOS .
	Selected xcode must have an iOS SDK among:
	[snip]
	13.2 (included in Xcode 11.3)
	13.5 (included in Xcode 11.5)

Maybe my aphasia is getting in the way?



iOS
iOS deployment is possible when running LiveCode IDE on a Mac, and provided Xcode is installed
and has been set in LiveCode Preferences (in the Mobile Support pane).
Currently, the supported versions of Xcode are:
	Xcode 8.2 on MacOS X 10.11
	Xcode 9.2 on MacOS 10.12 (Note: You need to upgrade to 10.12.6)
	Xcode 10.1 on MacOS 10.13 (Note: You need to upgrade to 10.13.4)
	Xcode 11.3 on MacOS 10.14 (Note: You need to upgrade to 10.14.4)
	Xcode 11.4 on MacOS 10.15 (Note: You need to upgrade to 10.15.2)


It is also possible to set other versions of Xcode, to allow testing on a wider range of iOS
simulators. For instance, on MacOS 10.12 (Sierra), you can add Xcode 8.2 in the Mobile Support
preferences, to let you test your stack on the iOS Simulator 10.2.
We currently support building against the following versions of the iOS SDK:
	10.2 (included in Xcode 8.2)
	11.2 (included in Xcode 9.2)
	12.1 (included in Xcode 10.1)
	13.2 (included in Xcode 11.3)
	13.5 (included in Xcode 11.5)
Android

?On 8/22/20, 7:53 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    OK !


        Hi

        I found the following.   https://developer.apple.com/download/more/<https://developer.apple.com/download/more/>
        It has older versions  including 11.4


        Martin


From dvglasgow at gmail.com  Sun Aug 23 08:07:20 2020
From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 13:07:20 +0100
Subject: Getting page counts of PDFs
In-Reply-To: <E33DFF01-A923-4C82-8754-D61641BB03AD@hindu.org>
References: <B0499AA6-0BB2-4812-9A28-5DFA4E2B03CC@hindu.org>
 <178A8912-DF65-4939-9050-76738915789B@rogers.com>
 <EC2860F7-1BD4-49AC-A776-533D47377602@hindu.org>
 <E33DFF01-A923-4C82-8754-D61641BB03AD@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <12217CF4-7816-41E5-B132-0074596A8AEE@gmail.com>

Livecoders,

In my day job, some of my income comes from the number of pages from  a number of PDF documents thatI have to read for individual cases.  I thought it would be fun and useful to write an LC script that would either count the pages or (even better) get the page count of a folder full of PDFs.

I didn?t imagine it would be too hard, because both Mac and Win OSs report page number instantly and accurately in the file information windows.

I discovered that in a small sample of PDFs a line? 
<< /Type /Pages /MediaBox [0 0 612 792] /Count 149 /Kids [ 1396 0 R 1397 0 R


...contained the page count, which was a bit confusing because I read that the Mediabox was only about page dimensions.  Then I found that some PDFs don?t contain that line, or at least not in the clear.

There is a general online consensus that reliably finding the page count of a PDF involves quite a lot of messing about and parsing, and may involve pretty much counting the pages.

I found some code here <http://www.angusj.com/delphitips/pdfpagecount.php> with the following walk through:

//1.  See if there's a 'Linearization dictionary' for easy parsing.
//    Mostly there isn't so ...
//2.  Locate 'startxref' at end of file
//3.  get 'xref' offset and go to xref table
//4.  depending on version the xref table may or may not be in a compressed
//    stream. If it's in a compressed stream (PDF ver 1.5+) then getting the
//    page number requires a LOT of code which is too convoluted to summarise
//    here. Otherwise it still requires a moderate amount of code ...
//5.  parse the xref table and fill a list with object numbers and offsets
//6.  handle subsections within xref table.
//7.  read 'trailer' section at end of each xref
//8.  store 'Root' object number if found in 'trailer'
//9.  if 'Prev' xref found in 'trailer' - loop back to step 3
//10. locate Root in the object list
//11. locate 'Pages' object from Root
//12. get Count from Pages.


If this is right, how on earth do OSs do it so quickly?  Also, and more to the point, am I on a fools errand to do this with LC?  I haven?t seen anything that obviously couldn?t be done (didn?t understand the regex, but assumed with effort?).  However parsing huge files just doesn?t look like it would be worth the effort, particularly as I can select all the documents,  get info, and sum the pages in my head..

Cheers,

David Glasgow

From mkoob at rogers.com  Sun Aug 23 09:21:34 2020
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 09:21:34 -0400
Subject: Really OT:  Just Got it.
References: <488C6FD6-C585-4C38-865A-734A2ED6D23A.ref@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <488C6FD6-C585-4C38-865A-734A2ED6D23A@rogers.com>

Markdown, as opposed to markup.   Ahhh I get it.

A little slow on the update here.  :-\

Martin

From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Sun Aug 23 10:17:50 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 10:17:50 -0400
Subject: Getting page counts of PDFs
In-Reply-To: <12217CF4-7816-41E5-B132-0074596A8AEE@gmail.com>
References: <B0499AA6-0BB2-4812-9A28-5DFA4E2B03CC@hindu.org>
 <178A8912-DF65-4939-9050-76738915789B@rogers.com>
 <EC2860F7-1BD4-49AC-A776-533D47377602@hindu.org>
 <E33DFF01-A923-4C82-8754-D61641BB03AD@hindu.org>
 <12217CF4-7816-41E5-B132-0074596A8AEE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801d67958$31fc4e70$95f4eb50$@net>

PDF Widget will do the trick. I start reading the PDF spec 20 years ago and got a giant headache.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of David V Glasgow via use-livecode
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2020 8:07 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: David V Glasgow
Subject: Getting page counts of PDFs

Livecoders,

In my day job, some of my income comes from the number of pages from  a number of PDF documents thatI have to read for individual cases.  I thought it would be fun and useful to write an LC script that would either count the pages or (even better) get the page count of a folder full of PDFs.

I didn?t imagine it would be too hard, because both Mac and Win OSs report page number instantly and accurately in the file information windows.

I discovered that in a small sample of PDFs a line? << /Type /Pages /MediaBox [0 0 612 792] /Count 149 /Kids [ 1396 0 R 1397 0 R


...contained the page count, which was a bit confusing because I read that the Mediabox was only about page dimensions.  Then I found that some PDFs don?t contain that line, or at least not in the clear.

There is a general online consensus that reliably finding the page count of a PDF involves quite a lot of messing about and parsing, and may involve pretty much counting the pages.

I found some code here <http://www.angusj.com/delphitips/pdfpagecount.php> with the following walk through:

//1.  See if there's a 'Linearization dictionary' for easy parsing.
//    Mostly there isn't so ...
//2.  Locate 'startxref' at end of file
//3.  get 'xref' offset and go to xref table
//4.  depending on version the xref table may or may not be in a compressed
//    stream. If it's in a compressed stream (PDF ver 1.5+) then getting the
//    page number requires a LOT of code which is too convoluted to summarise
//    here. Otherwise it still requires a moderate amount of code ...
//5.  parse the xref table and fill a list with object numbers and offsets
//6.  handle subsections within xref table.
//7.  read 'trailer' section at end of each xref
//8.  store 'Root' object number if found in 'trailer'
//9.  if 'Prev' xref found in 'trailer' - loop back to step 3
//10. locate Root in the object list
//11. locate 'Pages' object from Root
//12. get Count from Pages.


If this is right, how on earth do OSs do it so quickly?  Also, and more to the point, am I on a fools errand to do this with LC?  I haven?t seen anything that obviously couldn?t be done (didn?t understand the regex, but assumed with effort?).  However parsing huge files just doesn?t look like it would be worth the effort, particularly as I can select all the documents,  get info, and sum the pages in my head..

Cheers,

David Glasgow
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From panos.merakos at livecode.com  Mon Aug 24 10:38:02 2020
From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 17:38:02 +0300
Subject: [ANN] This Week in LiveCode 236
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq9WF4sjGL-ay5gi=YWRdtPtv+byBX5ZZqMZ60GwdQOwuA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Read about new developments in LiveCode open source and the open source
community in today's edition of the "This Week in LiveCode" newsletter!

        Read issue #236 here: https://bit.ly/2FJ4yt5

This is a weekly newsletter about LiveCode, focussing on what's been
going on in and around the open source project. New issues will be
released weekly on Mondays. We have a dedicated mailing list that will
deliver each issue directly to you e-mail, so you don't miss any!

If you have anything you'd like mentioned (a project, a discussion
somewhere, an upcoming event) then please get in touch.


-- 
Panagiotis Merakos <panos.merakos at livecode.com>
LiveCode Software Developer

Everyone Can Create Apps <https://livecode.com>


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Mon Aug 24 16:49:16 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 21:49:16 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same regardless
of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for me at the moment.

My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
vertical position certainly never matches.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0

(This dates all the way to bug 3076!! Pretty awesome to hold onto a bug
reported back in 2005 for something so basic. Kudos to LC for keeping on
top of it.)

Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts show
alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the names
themselves are screwed up:

   1. eg, Windows: Helvetica Neue
   2. Mac: Helvetica, Helvetica Bold, Helvetica Bold Oblique, Helvetica
   Light, Helvetica Light Oblique, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica Neue Bold,
   Helvetica Neue Bold Italic, Helvetica Neue Condensed Black, Helvetica Neue
   Condensed Bold, Helvetica Neue Italic, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue
   Light Italic, Helvetica Neue Medium, Helvetica Neue Medium Italic,
   Helvetica Neue Thin, Helvetica Neue Thin Italic, Helvetica Neue UltraLight,
   Helvetica Neue UltraLight Italic, Helvetica Oblique


   - eg. Windows: Arial, Arial Rounded MT, Arial Unicode MS
   - Mac: Arial, Arial, Arial Black, Arial Bold, Arial Bold, Arial Bold
   Italic, Arial Bold Italic, Arial Hebrew, Arial Hebrew Bold, Arial Hebrew
   Light, Arial Hebrew Scholar, Arial Hebrew Scholar Bold, Arial Hebrew
   Scholar Light, Arial Italic, Arial Italic, Arial Narrow, Arial Narrow Bold,
   Arial Narrow Bold Italic, Arial Narrow Italic, Arial Rounded MT Bold, Arial
   Unicode MS

This is bonkers for a SDK that purports to make it 'Easy' to make
cross-platform apps.

Thanks all

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Mon Aug 24 17:38:55 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 00:38:55 +0300
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>

How about embedding your fonts in the standalone?

On 24.08.20 23:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
> cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same regardless
> of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for me at the moment.
>
> My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
> They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
> through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
> properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
> vertical position certainly never matches.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
>
> (This dates all the way to bug 3076!! Pretty awesome to hold onto a bug
> reported back in 2005 for something so basic. Kudos to LC for keeping on
> top of it.)
>
> Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
> between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts show
> alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the names
> themselves are screwed up:
>
>     1. eg, Windows: Helvetica Neue
>     2. Mac: Helvetica, Helvetica Bold, Helvetica Bold Oblique, Helvetica
>     Light, Helvetica Light Oblique, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica Neue Bold,
>     Helvetica Neue Bold Italic, Helvetica Neue Condensed Black, Helvetica Neue
>     Condensed Bold, Helvetica Neue Italic, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue
>     Light Italic, Helvetica Neue Medium, Helvetica Neue Medium Italic,
>     Helvetica Neue Thin, Helvetica Neue Thin Italic, Helvetica Neue UltraLight,
>     Helvetica Neue UltraLight Italic, Helvetica Oblique
>
>
>     - eg. Windows: Arial, Arial Rounded MT, Arial Unicode MS
>     - Mac: Arial, Arial, Arial Black, Arial Bold, Arial Bold, Arial Bold
>     Italic, Arial Bold Italic, Arial Hebrew, Arial Hebrew Bold, Arial Hebrew
>     Light, Arial Hebrew Scholar, Arial Hebrew Scholar Bold, Arial Hebrew
>     Scholar Light, Arial Italic, Arial Italic, Arial Narrow, Arial Narrow Bold,
>     Arial Narrow Bold Italic, Arial Narrow Italic, Arial Rounded MT Bold, Arial
>     Unicode MS
>
> This is bonkers for a SDK that purports to make it 'Easy' to make
> cross-platform apps.
>
> Thanks all
>
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Mon Aug 24 17:59:09 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 22:59:09 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Richmond, buddy.

The font IS embedded. Not a problem using the font itself. It is the same
physical font on the two platforms. That's not what I'm asking when you
read past paragraph one.

HowTF do you get them to show up in the same 'fin place though (ie, the
pixel placement of the text itself, baseline, etc) from one platform to the
next?

Looking at the images and reading the request properly first before
commenting always helps. ;)

--

Side note follow up:
put fontstyles("Arial",0) - Put that in Windows and Mac messagebox and get
two different results -- MIND BLOWN! It's 2020 people. This was solved back
in the 70's, wasn't it? Who's overcomplicating this?

>From Livecode.com landing page:

Extremely Multiplatform Now with HTML5
> Create native applications for iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux, Server &
> The Web all from the same code.
> Code once, deploy to billions of devices. LiveCode is a truly
> multi-platform programming tool with iOS, Android, Mac, Windows, Linux,
> Server & HTML5 deployment options.


'CODE ONCE!' (With a billion workarounds to make it display the same across
platforms).

Not exactly what it says on the tin, is it!?!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 22:38, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> How about embedding your fonts in the standalone?
>
> On 24.08.20 23:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
> > cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same regardless
> > of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for me at the moment.
> >
> > My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
> > They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
> > through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
> > properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
> > vertical position certainly never matches.
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
> >
> > (This dates all the way to bug 3076!! Pretty awesome to hold onto a bug
> > reported back in 2005 for something so basic. Kudos to LC for keeping on
> > top of it.)
> >
> > Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
> > between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts
> show
> > alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the names
> > themselves are screwed up:
> >
> >     1. eg, Windows: Helvetica Neue
> >     2. Mac: Helvetica, Helvetica Bold, Helvetica Bold Oblique, Helvetica
> >     Light, Helvetica Light Oblique, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica Neue Bold,
> >     Helvetica Neue Bold Italic, Helvetica Neue Condensed Black,
> Helvetica Neue
> >     Condensed Bold, Helvetica Neue Italic, Helvetica Neue Light,
> Helvetica Neue
> >     Light Italic, Helvetica Neue Medium, Helvetica Neue Medium Italic,
> >     Helvetica Neue Thin, Helvetica Neue Thin Italic, Helvetica Neue
> UltraLight,
> >     Helvetica Neue UltraLight Italic, Helvetica Oblique
> >
> >
> >     - eg. Windows: Arial, Arial Rounded MT, Arial Unicode MS
> >     - Mac: Arial, Arial, Arial Black, Arial Bold, Arial Bold, Arial Bold
> >     Italic, Arial Bold Italic, Arial Hebrew, Arial Hebrew Bold, Arial
> Hebrew
> >     Light, Arial Hebrew Scholar, Arial Hebrew Scholar Bold, Arial Hebrew
> >     Scholar Light, Arial Italic, Arial Italic, Arial Narrow, Arial
> Narrow Bold,
> >     Arial Narrow Bold Italic, Arial Narrow Italic, Arial Rounded MT
> Bold, Arial
> >     Unicode MS
> >
> > This is bonkers for a SDK that purports to make it 'Easy' to make
> > cross-platform apps.
> >
> > Thanks all
> >
> > Sean Cole
> > *Pi Digital *
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Mon Aug 24 18:25:36 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 18:25:36 -0400
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
Message-ID: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>

Dear livecode programmers,

For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB database 
(no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.

The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the SSL 
encryption suddenly stopped working.

The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).

There are the tests:

*From the server:*

mysql> show variables like '%ssl%';
+--------------------+--------------------------------+
| Variable_name ? ? ?| Value ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
+--------------------+--------------------------------+
| have_openssl ? ? ? | YES ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| have_ssl ? ? ? ? ? | YES ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| mysqlx_ssl_ca ? ? ?| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| mysqlx_ssl_capath ?| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| mysqlx_ssl_cert ? ?| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| mysqlx_ssl_cipher ?| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| mysqlx_ssl_crl ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| mysqlx_ssl_crlpath | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| mysqlx_ssl_key ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| ssl_ca ? ? ? ? ? ? | /var/lib/mysql/pki/chain.pem ? |
| ssl_capath ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| ssl_cert ? ? ? ? ? | /var/lib/mysql/pki/cert.pem ? ?|
| ssl_cipher ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| ssl_crl ? ? ? ? ? ?| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| ssl_crlpath ? ? ? ?| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| ssl_fips_mode ? ? ?| OFF ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
| ssl_key ? ? ? ? ? ?| /var/lib/mysql/pki/privkey.pem |
+--------------------+--------------------------------+
17 rows in set (0.00 sec)

*From a client forcing using SSL (from remote machine):*

MySQL [(none)]> show status like 'ssl_cipher';
+---------------+------------------------+
| Variable_name | Value ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
+---------------+------------------------+
| Ssl_cipher ? ?| TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 |
+---------------+------------------------+

Server: Centos 8.0


This is the error I get: SSL connection error.


This is my livecode DB sequence connection (From a Livecode 9.5 Indy 
version).


 ?? put revOpenDatabase("mysql", tserver, tDatabaseName, tuser, 
tpass,true,,,true) into tResult

 ?? if tResult is a number then
 ????? put tResult into gConnectionID

 ?? else
 ????? put empty into gConnectionID
 ????? answer error "Upps, Cannot connect to the data base!, ?Hay 
problemas!, Try it again: "& cr? & tResult
 ????? exit to top
 ?? end if

Do you know what can be the problem?


-- 

Best regards/ Saludos cordiales/ Cordialement

Heriberto Torrado
?Chief Technology Officer (CTO)
?Director de inform?tica
Directeur informatique

*NetDreams S.C.*
http://www.networkdreams.net

 ?Address / Direcci?n / Adresse:?

*USA: *538 East 85th Street, #1C Manhattan NY, NY 10028 USA
*Europe / Europa: *Paseo de la Castellana 135 10? Planta Madrid 28024 
Spain / Espa?a

*Tel - Phone - Fax:*

Phone / Tel USA : +1 917 287 5644 / +1 646 596 8787
Phone / Tel Spain :+34 627 556 500 / + 34 91 063 74 48

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favor considera tu responsabilidad medioambiental antes de imprimir esta 
p?gina.

Confidentiality: The information contained in this message as well as 
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From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Aug 24 20:42:35 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 17:42:35 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f1e23d59-f4b0-a91f-7fb7-b83cb18dea07@fourthworld.com>

Sean Cole wrote:

 > What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
 > cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same
 > regardless of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for
 > me at the moment.

Font metrics will differ between OSes because the underlying rendering 
method used by each OS is different.

Have you delivered cross-platform apps in which you found no difference 
at all?

The closest I can imagine might be PDF, achievable with some settings 
only by decomposing the font into the Postscript describing the page.

Even browsers, with their multi-million-dollar code bases and their 
mind-bending efforts to make things as uniform as practical across 
platforms, will evidence the difference in OS rendering subsystems.

If you've found anything that corrects for this, I would enjoy learning 
about it. I can't even imagine how such a thing would work, so I'd learn 
a lot.


 > Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
 > between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts
 > show alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the
 > names themselves are screwed up...

My understanding is that it's the same as when getting a list of files 
in a directory, the names are returned in the order given to LC by the 
host OS.

The sort command can be used where sorting is needed.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Mon Aug 24 22:30:18 2020
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 02:30:18 +0000
Subject: iOS app denied:  AVAudioSession
In-Reply-To: <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>
References: <946EC49C-41C6-4E08-8795-D7BF07DA7019@clearvisiontech.com>
 <d9d5d14f47ee302ec9839ca44fb3e627@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <B749BE91-0F76-4C89-90F5-53EE6B903DA6@clearvisiontech.com>

Update...

Turns out, I was looking for the call for microphone consent in the wrong place.  I was looking at app launch, but it was appearing when using mergAVCamCreate.  So, I AM seeing the microphone consent even though I am not using the Microphone.   Here's what I'm doing:

on mouseUp  //a button on the card
    mergAVAudioSessionSetCategory "ambient" //Added this, but still getting the microphone consent
    mergAVRequestMediaAccess "video"
end mouseUp

on mergAVMediaAccess pType,pGranted
  if (pType = "video") and pGranted then
    set the returnTo of stack "barcodeScanner-iOS" to the long id of me
    open stack "barcodeScanner-iOS"
  end if
end mergAVMediaAccess

on preOpenStack  //stack "barcodeScanner-iOS"
  mergAVCamCreate
  mergAVCamSet "rect",the rect of btn "scannerRect"
  mergAVCamSet "visible",true
  mergAVCamStartBarcodeReader
end preOpenStack

Why would this bring up the microphone consent dialog?


Thank you!
-Dan
 

?On 8/21/20, 8:53 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Waddingham via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    On 2020-08-21 16:39, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote:
    > Any thoughts?   Client is waiting for this post!

    The only difference between 9.6.1-rc-1 and rc-2 was the removal of some 
    no-longer-used references to an Ad SDK on Android. 9.6.1 was the same as 
    9.6.1-rc-2 (except for version).

    Apple update their review processes all the time, so it is possible they 
    changed something between the two app submissions.

    The most important question here is: Can you reproduce the request for 
    microphone access which Apple observed?

    If not, then you need to find out how they did and dispute the rejection 
    - it could be human error on their side...

    If you can, then it suggests that you might have some code buried 
    somewhere setting the audio category - or use of the video camera is 
    using a default category Apple doesn't like.

    Make sure you aren't asking for a video camera with both audio and video 
    - i.e. just audio only.

    Failing that, there is mergAVAudioSessionSetCategory - you could try 
    explicitly setting the category to "ambient" on startup.

    Warmest Regards,

    Mark.

    -- 
    Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
    LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Mon Aug 24 22:43:37 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 21:43:37 -0500
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

On August 24, 2020 5:01:54 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The font IS embedded. Not a problem using the font itself. It is the same
> physical font on the two platforms. That's not what I'm asking when you
> read past paragraph one.
>
> HowTF do you get them to show up in the same 'fin place though (ie, the
> pixel placement of the text itself, baseline, etc) from one platform to the
> next?

Mac and Windows have always rendered fonts differently, the font rendering 
is done by the OS. Talk to Apple, MicroSoft and Google about it (Android 
and iOS are each unique too.) The text will always start at the same place 
but will render differently from there depending on the OS. You may be able 
to adjust the baselines by tinkering with the textheight per platform. You 
will never exactly match the text wrap. In general I leave extra space in a 
field to accomodate Windows font rendering. Here's why:

https://damieng.com/blog/2007/06/13/font-rendering-philosophies-of-windows-and-mac-os-x


> Side note follow up:
> put fontstyles("Arial",0) - Put that in Windows and Mac messagebox and get
> two different results -- MIND BLOWN! It's 2020 people. This was solved back
> in the 70's, wasn't it? Who's overcomplicating this?

The various operating systems. LC asks the OS what fonts are available, and 
each OS returns its own interpretation of what it has (apparently Windows 
does more consolidation by font family than Mac.This is a disadvantage 
sometimes when you do need to know the font file name in order to set a 
specific style.) LC relies on the OS for a whole lot of its info and 
operations, which it passes on to us. It could hardly do otherwise, without 
writing its own OS.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com





From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org  Mon Aug 24 23:18:51 2020
From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:18:51 -0700
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>

I have assigned a behavior to a button. The behavior button/source is on a different stack. It works fine. But a click on a movie player, on the same card, triggers the mouseUp handler in the behavior, which I don?t want to happen. It seems odd that this would happen, but I need to fix it.

My solution is to test whether the target is the button, or something else. I solved it by trapping the mouseUp message in a script on the player. However, I was trying to figure out how to get the behavior to give me the source/origin of the mouseUp message. I can get the name of the card using ?the owner? but can?t seem to find the right syntax to get the name of the button that the behavior is attached to.

This is probably trivial, but I?d appreciate any help.

Thanks,
Bill

William A. Prothero
Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
http://earthlearningsolutions.org/



From brian at milby7.com  Mon Aug 24 23:29:41 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 23:29:41 -0400
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
References: <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
Message-ID: <A5613391-E0E4-49E6-9858-540EDA53976B@milby7.com>

Wouldn?t it just be ?me??  And ?this me? should be the behavior object.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 24, 2020, at 11:19 PM, prothero--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?I have assigned a behavior to a button. The behavior button/source is on a different stack. It works fine. But a click on a movie player, on the same card, triggers the mouseUp handler in the behavior, which I don?t want to happen. It seems odd that this would happen, but I need to fix it.
> 
> My solution is to test whether the target is the button, or something else. I solved it by trapping the mouseUp message in a script on the player. However, I was trying to figure out how to get the behavior to give me the source/origin of the mouseUp message. I can get the name of the card using ?the owner? but can?t seem to find the right syntax to get the name of the button that the behavior is attached to.
> 
> This is probably trivial, but I?d appreciate any help.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill
> 
> William A. Prothero
> Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
> http://earthlearningsolutions.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 00:02:50 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 05:02:50 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSRWOFwBRVN1Upj-ThV71gpSV3yODOMMRF8aj9-yfyjwjA@mail.gmail.com>

It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.

Yet again, everyone happy to make excuses in accepting their fate to have
to do all the work twice. I might as well code it in Java, C# and Swift for
all the hassle I get in LC. It's laughable how excuses are made for them.

If LC is rendering it out, they must know, from experimentation, how each
system renders and compensate accordingly - in the engine. If I am feeding
it a ttf or whatever, and they are effectively creating an OS operating
within the given platform, they have better control over how things are
rendered at engine level.

If I do artwork in photoshop, Premier, After effects with text layers and
open it up in another platform, guess what?? It damn well looks identical
(as long as the font is installed)! Your excuses cut no mustard with me.
I've been doing this since the late 80's early 90's.

It negates having, in the standalone settings, the need to have checkboxes
for each platform like you can happily output for all in one go. I always,
still, to date, end up with a stack saved for windows, another for mac,
another for whatever else. It's soo stupid, otherwise, I end up with a
tonne of 'if platform() is "fecked up" then' conditions for every display
code I do! When I need to make an update, I end up having to go back over
what I've changed and copy-paste it into the other stacks as best I can
avoiding the differences for font height and placing changes and all the
other NON-CODE-ONCE discrepancies between the platforms. IT IS ABSOLUTELY
FALSE ADVERTISING!!! I'm effing SERIOUS! I've been lied to FAR TOO MUCH by
LC, and you guys just backing them up with really LAME excuses. I mean, do
any of you write multiplatform? How the eff do you manage to account for
and compensate for the display discrepancies (short of them being lame-ass
apps that layout in crappy 80s fashion, basically no better than the old
Hypercard style)?

It IS supposed to be the POINT of LC!

On the LC homepage:
One code base -- LiveCode is cross platform so you won?t have to write
extra code for each platform you deploy to. This avoids having to write
your app multiple times for multiple platforms saving you crucial developer
time.

EFF OFF!!! Total BS!! Saving me frikin time, my buttocks! I'm forever going
round in circles trying to work out what crappy workaround I have to use
this time because some feature on LC isn't functioning correctly, only to
find when attempting to put it up on the 'Quality' (yet another JOKE!)
bugzilla site, that it's a bug that has already existed for anything
between 4 to 15 friggin years.

UNACCEPTABLE!!

And, don't you dare say 'it's just the way it is' or 'the way it's always
been'. Unacceptable! Change the way it is! Put the way it's always been
behind us! MAKE IT EFFIN WORK!!

Seriously!
Sean Cole
*Pi Digital*

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 03:43, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On August 24, 2020 5:01:54 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode"
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > The font IS embedded. Not a problem using the font itself. It is the same
> > physical font on the two platforms. That's not what I'm asking when you
> > read past paragraph one.
> >
> > HowTF do you get them to show up in the same 'fin place though (ie, the
> > pixel placement of the text itself, baseline, etc) from one platform to
> the
> > next?
>
> Mac and Windows have always rendered fonts differently, the font rendering
> is done by the OS. Talk to Apple, MicroSoft and Google about it (Android
> and iOS are each unique too.) The text will always start at the same place
> but will render differently from there depending on the OS. You may be
> able
> to adjust the baselines by tinkering with the textheight per platform. You
> will never exactly match the text wrap. In general I leave extra space in
> a
> field to accomodate Windows font rendering. Here's why:
>
>
> https://damieng.com/blog/2007/06/13/font-rendering-philosophies-of-windows-and-mac-os-x
>
>
> > Side note follow up:
> > put fontstyles("Arial",0) - Put that in Windows and Mac messagebox and
> get
> > two different results -- MIND BLOWN! It's 2020 people. This was solved
> back
> > in the 70's, wasn't it? Who's overcomplicating this?
>
> The various operating systems. LC asks the OS what fonts are available,
> and
> each OS returns its own interpretation of what it has (apparently Windows
> does more consolidation by font family than Mac.This is a disadvantage
> sometimes when you do need to know the font file name in order to set a
> specific style.) LC relies on the OS for a whole lot of its info and
> operations, which it passes on to us. It could hardly do otherwise,
> without
> writing its own OS.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 04:06:14 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:06:14 +0300
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>

Well: stew my foot and call me "Brenda" . . .

https://youtu.be/sLeG7gxIJx4

those 2 pictures look extremely similar to me.

I, frankly, never worry about fonts in things like that cross-platform
for the very, very simple reason that I set up the thing the way I want on
the platform I'm working on and import a snapshot of it, so it is exactly
the same wherever it ends up.

That is HowTF? (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
things done.

Best, Richmond.

On 25.08.20 0:59, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi Richmond, buddy.
>
> The font IS embedded. Not a problem using the font itself. It is the same
> physical font on the two platforms. That's not what I'm asking when you
> read past paragraph one.
>
> HowTF do you get them to show up in the same 'fin place though (ie, the
> pixel placement of the text itself, baseline, etc) from one platform to the
> next?
>
> Looking at the images and reading the request properly first before
> commenting always helps. ;)
>
> --
>
> Side note follow up:
> put fontstyles("Arial",0) - Put that in Windows and Mac messagebox and get
> two different results -- MIND BLOWN! It's 2020 people. This was solved back
> in the 70's, wasn't it? Who's overcomplicating this?
>
>  From Livecode.com landing page:
>
> Extremely Multiplatform Now with HTML5
>> Create native applications for iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux, Server &
>> The Web all from the same code.
>> Code once, deploy to billions of devices. LiveCode is a truly
>> multi-platform programming tool with iOS, Android, Mac, Windows, Linux,
>> Server & HTML5 deployment options.
>
> 'CODE ONCE!' (With a billion workarounds to make it display the same across
> platforms).
>
> Not exactly what it says on the tin, is it!?!
>
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
>
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 22:38, Richmond via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> How about embedding your fonts in the standalone?
>>
>> On 24.08.20 23:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> What is the current 'workaround' everyone is using when creating a
>>> cross-platform app to make sure that all text appears the same regardless
>>> of platform? Particularly between Windows and Mac for me at the moment.
>>>
>>> My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
>>> They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
>>> through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
>>> properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
>>> vertical position certainly never matches.
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
>>>
>>> (This dates all the way to bug 3076!! Pretty awesome to hold onto a bug
>>> reported back in 2005 for something so basic. Kudos to LC for keeping on
>>> top of it.)
>>>
>>> Also, side note, does anyone remember why we STILL have a discrepancy
>>> between fontnames() in Mac and Windows? Not only do the windows fonts
>> show
>>> alphabetically and mac dramatically out of order, but also, the names
>>> themselves are screwed up:
>>>
>>>      1. eg, Windows: Helvetica Neue
>>>      2. Mac: Helvetica, Helvetica Bold, Helvetica Bold Oblique, Helvetica
>>>      Light, Helvetica Light Oblique, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica Neue Bold,
>>>      Helvetica Neue Bold Italic, Helvetica Neue Condensed Black,
>> Helvetica Neue
>>>      Condensed Bold, Helvetica Neue Italic, Helvetica Neue Light,
>> Helvetica Neue
>>>      Light Italic, Helvetica Neue Medium, Helvetica Neue Medium Italic,
>>>      Helvetica Neue Thin, Helvetica Neue Thin Italic, Helvetica Neue
>> UltraLight,
>>>      Helvetica Neue UltraLight Italic, Helvetica Oblique
>>>
>>>
>>>      - eg. Windows: Arial, Arial Rounded MT, Arial Unicode MS
>>>      - Mac: Arial, Arial, Arial Black, Arial Bold, Arial Bold, Arial Bold
>>>      Italic, Arial Bold Italic, Arial Hebrew, Arial Hebrew Bold, Arial
>> Hebrew
>>>      Light, Arial Hebrew Scholar, Arial Hebrew Scholar Bold, Arial Hebrew
>>>      Scholar Light, Arial Italic, Arial Italic, Arial Narrow, Arial
>> Narrow Bold,
>>>      Arial Narrow Bold Italic, Arial Narrow Italic, Arial Rounded MT
>> Bold, Arial
>>>      Unicode MS
>>>
>>> This is bonkers for a SDK that purports to make it 'Easy' to make
>>> cross-platform apps.
>>>
>>> Thanks all
>>>
>>> Sean Cole
>>> *Pi Digital *
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 06:01:13 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:01:13 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>
References: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>

Not Fridge, Fork. 

I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai. 

My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses. 

As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That?s how branding works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ?just the way it is?! 

So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the finished app layered out (don?t get me back on the layering embargo), animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms. 

Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the same thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we use.

That?s ?real world? development. Not to mention my current bread and butter job for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text objects and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.

It?s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don?t get too sane. Makes sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital
> 
> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
> things done.
> 
> Best, Richmond.


From bdrunrev at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 07:09:40 2020
From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:09:40 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSRWOFwBRVN1Upj-ThV71gpSV3yODOMMRF8aj9-yfyjwjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSRWOFwBRVN1Upj-ThV71gpSV3yODOMMRF8aj9-yfyjwjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+O+R-EO8NHZVhTwK7LsNKT2rQ0YjFxbRvtBBUTMOt8yZmbNzQ@mail.gmail.com>

I wondered how Java dealt with the issue of rendering fonts across
platforms. It seems they have (had) the same problems you are experiencing.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12202758/how-to-make-java-swing-application-has-a-consistent-font-in-windows-and-linux

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11994407/using-java-to-develop-cross-platform-fonts-scaling-differently-on-different-pla

Those posts are 8 years old (that they've been viewed 1000s of times
suggests this is pain that was felt by many). Maybe things have changed for
the better in Javaland. But it's more likely that Java is less used for
desktop apps than it was 8 years ago. I know that I only use one Java app
across my computers.

Regards
Bernard

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 5:03 AM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yet again, everyone happy to make excuses in accepting their fate to have
> to do all the work twice. I might as well code it in Java, C# and Swift for
> all the hassle I get in LC. It's laughable how excuses are made for them.
>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 09:08:46 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:08:46 +0300
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>
 <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <0106235d-2cbc-27b5-d5fc-5d12e9106971@gmail.com>

Not a dangerous assumption at all, I assure you.

I do sympathise:

I made many applications for the United Arab Emirates University about 
22 years ago (HyperCard & Toolbook) and
was constantly falling foul of my bosses who knew nothing of the 
exigencies of either MacOS 8.1 or Windows NT,
and failed to understand that I just could NOT develop stuff with 
HyperCard for Macintosh that would exactly resemble
the things I was develpoing for NT with Toolbook.

I subsequently developed a commercial package using RunRev 2 (that's 
early LiveCode) and fell foul of my
employer again because of lack of cross-platform "transparency" between 
Windows 2000 and MacOS 9.1 and "X".

That was when I decided to make my primary income in a way which 
involved no bosses of any sort whatsoever, ever again.

I do know what "HowTF" means.

Next week I will be back in a physical classroom in my own EFL school, 
and, frankly, I could stand on my head and
blow bubbles through my nose, and would only be answerable to myself.

But, when I was 19 I hitch-hiked from Perth (in Scotland) to just south 
of Edinburgh with a bloke who was a career advisor
who told me that everyone should be their own boss by the time they were 
40. I didn't quite manage that, becoming my own
boss at 42.

Believe me: the water's warm and contains no sharks. :)

However; what on earth made you believe that LiveCode was 100% 
cross-platform? This is a bit like believing
(when one is 17) that all women (or any at all) will look like the 
air-brushed freaks one sees in Playboy.

I am sure that my income is far, far less than yours (well, it works out 
as about ?1,000 a month), but the fridge
is full, my wife and I only fight about things that are not 
work-related, and I'm a happy camper.

And as you should be well aware by now; my rants are usually when I get 
up on my high-horse about something that,
in the great scheme of things, is really neither here nor there. :)

It might be time for you to "run away".

Best, Richmond.

On 25.08.20 13:01, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote:
> Not Fridge, Fork.
>
> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.
>
> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses.
>
> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That?s how branding works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ?just the way it is?!
>
> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the finished app layered out (don?t get me back on the layering embargo), animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms.
>
> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the same thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we use.
>
> That?s ?real world? development. Not to mention my current bread and butter job for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text objects and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.
>
> It?s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don?t get too sane. Makes sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month.
>
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital
>> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
>> things done.
>>
>> Best, Richmond.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From pystcat at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 09:11:19 2020
From: pystcat at gmail.com (Paul Pystcat)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:11:19 -0400
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>
 <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>

I really have to ask?  if you are having such problems that are so insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship??  Seriously.  If this is such a showstopper, why not find another language that will do exactly what you want..?  Don?t waste any more of your time.  Do it.  You may find the Holy Grail and all will be well? you can look back on your years of hell with LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Not Fridge, Fork. 
> 
> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai. 
> 
> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses. 
> 
> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That?s how branding works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ?just the way it is?! 
> 
> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the finished app layered out (don?t get me back on the layering embargo), animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms. 
> 
> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the same thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we use.
> 
> That?s ?real world? development. Not to mention my current bread and butter job for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text objects and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.
> 
> It?s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don?t get too sane. Makes sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month. 
> 
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital
>> 
>> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
>> things done.
>> 
>> Best, Richmond.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 09:28:56 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:28:56 +0300
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>
References: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>
 <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
 <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f581d9db-0541-657b-e4d9-d19bff5da819@gmail.com>

Well; let's consider that suggestion:

1. The Holy Grail was an abstract idea dreamt up by the Knights Templars.

2. Most people have worked out by the time they are about 35 that 
perfection is a dangerous illusion.

3. "Years of hell": Why do you suppose the OP has stuck with LiveCode 
for the length of time he has if it has been 'hell'?

4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . . 
ouch, I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.

5. Why do I get a "funny feeling" that by calling yourself 'Paul 
Pystcat' you are an undercover agent pushing Python (a language
which I could say one or two "fruity" things about)?

6. The OP is NOT a fool; that is quite obvious from his previous 
postings over a number of years, and he would not be
posting the sort of thing he posted if he were considering abandonong 
LiveCode.

7. Err . . . on the subject of rants and "squishes" . . .

On 25.08.20 16:11, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode wrote:
> I really have to ask?  if you are having such problems that are so insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship??  Seriously.  If this is such a showstopper, why not find another language that will do exactly what you want..?  Don?t waste any more of your time.  Do it.  You may find the Holy Grail and all will be well? you can look back on your years of hell with LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.
>
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Not Fridge, Fork.
>>
>> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.
>>
>> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses.
>>
>> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That?s how branding works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ?just the way it is?!
>>
>> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the finished app layered out (don?t get me back on the layering embargo), animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms.
>>
>> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the same thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we use.
>>
>> That?s ?real world? development. Not to mention my current bread and butter job for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text objects and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.
>>
>> It?s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don?t get too sane. Makes sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month.
>>
>> Sean Cole
>> Pi Digital
>>> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
>>> things done.
>>>
>>> Best, Richmond.
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Tue Aug 25 09:43:26 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:43:26 -0400
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <f581d9db-0541-657b-e4d9-d19bff5da819@gmail.com>
References: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>
 <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
 <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>
 <f581d9db-0541-657b-e4d9-d19bff5da819@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycP_jZUPto_5Yb8GgiVs2pDQDZ5=BB70jerihXwSVMRBeg@mail.gmail.com>

this has always been a problem with multiple development tools, at least
for as long as I can remember x-platform development tools and WYSIWYG
being a thing, so Win 95, and MacOS 6 or 7 (uh...7?).  I agree it would be
great if LC would try harder, since the goal is to make the developer's
life easier, and if the mantra and the goal is to design it/lay it out/code
it once, then that should be what you get.
some development tools have gone so far as to use style sheets, so on one
platform you have different sizes (or different fonts) to accommodate the
issues, but i'm not a fan.  there are too many exceptions to the rule, and
you're always chasing "good enough", which is "good enough", until you rap
your knuckles on the next exception.
at least for us, the easiest thing to do has been to size objects for the
mac, because we have found that on the mac, fonts render slightly larger,
and therefore wrap or overflow.  then when we port to windoze, things are
ok.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:29 AM Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Well; let's consider that suggestion:
>
> 1. The Holy Grail was an abstract idea dreamt up by the Knights Templars.
>
> 2. Most people have worked out by the time they are about 35 that
> perfection is a dangerous illusion.
>
> 3. "Years of hell": Why do you suppose the OP has stuck with LiveCode
> for the length of time he has if it has been 'hell'?
>
> 4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . .
> ouch, I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.
>
> 5. Why do I get a "funny feeling" that by calling yourself 'Paul
> Pystcat' you are an undercover agent pushing Python (a language
> which I could say one or two "fruity" things about)?
>
> 6. The OP is NOT a fool; that is quite obvious from his previous
> postings over a number of years, and he would not be
> posting the sort of thing he posted if he were considering abandonong
> LiveCode.
>
> 7. Err . . . on the subject of rants and "squishes" . . .
>
> On 25.08.20 16:11, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode wrote:
> > I really have to ask?  if you are having such problems that are so
> insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship??
> Seriously.  If this is such a showstopper, why not find another language
> that will do exactly what you want..?  Don?t waste any more of your time.
> Do it.  You may find the Holy Grail and all will be well? you can look back
> on your years of hell with LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.
> >
> >> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Not Fridge, Fork.
> >>
> >> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make
> real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has
> been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide).
> Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi
> and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.
> >>
> >> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary
> development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary
> output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple
> screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or
> frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts
> all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc
> or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses.
> >>
> >> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it
> made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio
> techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for
> controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks
> on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to
> including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD,
> 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That?s how branding
> works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and
> graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not
> conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development
> environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues
> working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC
> running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ?just the way it
> is?!
> >>
> >> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have
> the finished app layered out (don?t get me back on the layering embargo),
> animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to
> Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in
> their respective platforms.
> >>
> >> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC
> is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the
> same thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest
> way to realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they
> match exactly regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any
> other software we use.
> >>
> >> That?s ?real world? development. Not to mention my current bread and
> butter job for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+
> text objects and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a
> tonne of NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.
> >>
> >> It?s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don?t get too
> sane. Makes sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month.
> >>
> >> Sean Cole
> >> Pi Digital
> >>> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I
> get
> >>> things done.
> >>>
> >>> Best, Richmond.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Tue Aug 25 09:44:53 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:44:53 -0400
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <A5613391-E0E4-49E6-9858-540EDA53976B@milby7.com>
References: <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <A5613391-E0E4-49E6-9858-540EDA53976B@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycP4-JfpeXV-vcKCFGm_sKfnk77X4GV3XVOpnjRZMmiBJw@mail.gmail.com>

i like "this me" less and less every time i read it.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 11:30 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Wouldn?t it just be ?me??  And ?this me? should be the behavior object.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 24, 2020, at 11:19 PM, prothero--- via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?I have assigned a behavior to a button. The behavior button/source is
> on a different stack. It works fine. But a click on a movie player, on the
> same card, triggers the mouseUp handler in the behavior, which I don?t want
> to happen. It seems odd that this would happen, but I need to fix it.
> >
> > My solution is to test whether the target is the button, or something
> else. I solved it by trapping the mouseUp message in a script on the
> player. However, I was trying to figure out how to get the behavior to give
> me the source/origin of the mouseUp message. I can get the name of the card
> using ?the owner? but can?t seem to find the right syntax to get the name
> of the button that the behavior is attached to.
> >
> > This is probably trivial, but I?d appreciate any help.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
> >
> > William A. Prothero
> > Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
> > http://earthlearningsolutions.org/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 09:47:53 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 14:47:53 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>
References: <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B7EE6E2-A7E6-4338-864F-38154F2C1B32@pidigital.co.uk>

Paul

It?s a reasonable question so I?ll afford it the dignity it deserves. Here?s the thing. With thousands of ? invested in them including when they beg for money to help them out during times of distress you end up almost locked into their ecosystem. Besides, my main bread and butter client is 100% LiveCode d?pendant so I HAVE to continue down the LC route. 

Unless I do what Richmond suggests, which has often been on my mind, and just jump ship and abandon my client. I?ve had partnerships I?ve had to do this with before, mostly due to their poor business skills though. This one has been nothing but good to me especially since I came out of the mental hospital two years ago. I wouldn?t want to insult him. 

And therein lies the rub because, to achieve the html conversion of his app his clients were effectively demanding, I had to have certain assurances from LC before investing yet more thousands of ? into them. However, that has all been proven to be LIES. 

And this is the real reason of late I have been up on MY high horse. Because time and time again, things promised are NEVER delivered. Except FMPro so we are led to believe. If they were really making so many sales, Jacque, why on earth would they be begging for money to help them out?? Why don?t they call on their new FM partners or users?? 

In response to the question ?what on earth made you believe it would be 100% cross platform?. Look on their homepage. The first 2 sections repeat it several times. According to that they have built their own system that delivers just this. Backed up by images that make it appear to be exactly this way with identical screen shots from multiple platforms. And they say it DOES NOT NEED ADDITIONAL CODE!!

How are you going to defend them this time? LC have not responded to this or my other posts. THEY KNOW I?M RIGHT and are keeping out of the frame. 

Look at the bug report from my original post. Look at it. 15 years on, STILL NOT FIXED. Confirmed as a bug. Nothing done. 

I want to give up so desperately but I am forced into carrying on until LC drive me into hospital yet again. I think I?ve explained enough above to show why that is. I?m doomed. I?m facing my own inevitable demise like someone with cancer. 

But I won?t go down without a fight!

All the best to the best of you all. (But not the rest of you) ;)

Sean Cole
Pi Digital

From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 09:57:18 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 14:57:18 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycP_jZUPto_5Yb8GgiVs2pDQDZ5=BB70jerihXwSVMRBeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADCoycP_jZUPto_5Yb8GgiVs2pDQDZ5=BB70jerihXwSVMRBeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7FDE4A98-9562-432B-8B59-440986DAAB2A@pidigital.co.uk>

Hi Mike

I agree. But if you are providing the identical, Paid for font (and those things aren?t cheap to a tv  programme maker) then you would expect them to show up in the same place in the text field from one platform to another. I just don?t get that it?s been 15 years and they still can?t get this right. 

I?ve been forced to go through all of the fields and write code for each one of them to reposition them. Some I can ?get away with. But where they need to appear central to a graphic (which there are a hundred of) it stands out badly and the customer, of course, notices as in my example pictures of my OP. 

LC Mark or Kevin, care to respond? I WONT let it lay without one. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Productions Ltd


eMail Ts & Cs


> On 25 Aug 2020, at 14:45, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?this has always been a problem with multiple development tools, at least
> for as long as I can remember x-platform development tools and WYSIWYG
> being a thing, so Win 95, and MacOS 6 or 7 (uh...7?).  I agree it would be
> great if LC would try harder, since the goal is to make the developer's
> life easier, and if the mantra and the goal is to design it/lay it out/code
> it once, then that should be what you get.
> some development tools have gone so far as to use style sheets, so on one
> platform you have different sizes (or different fonts) to accommodate the
> issues, but i'm not a fan.  there are too many exceptions to the rule, and
> you're always chasing "good enough", which is "good enough", until you rap
> your knuckles on the next exception.
> at least for us, the easiest thing to do has been to size objects for the
> mac, because we have found that on the mac, fonts render slightly larger,
> and therefore wrap or overflow.  then when we port to windoze, things are
> ok.
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:29 AM Richmond via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Well; let's consider that suggestion:
>> 
>> 1. The Holy Grail was an abstract idea dreamt up by the Knights Templars.
>> 
>> 2. Most people have worked out by the time they are about 35 that
>> perfection is a dangerous illusion.
>> 
>> 3. "Years of hell": Why do you suppose the OP has stuck with LiveCode
>> for the length of time he has if it has been 'hell'?
>> 
>> 4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . .
>> ouch, I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.
>> 
>> 5. Why do I get a "funny feeling" that by calling yourself 'Paul
>> Pystcat' you are an undercover agent pushing Python (a language
>> which I could say one or two "fruity" things about)?
>> 
>> 6. The OP is NOT a fool; that is quite obvious from his previous
>> postings over a number of years, and he would not be
>> posting the sort of thing he posted if he were considering abandonong
>> LiveCode.
>> 
>> 7. Err . . . on the subject of rants and "squishes" . . .
>> 
>>> On 25.08.20 16:11, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode wrote:
>>> I really have to ask?  if you are having such problems that are so
>> insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship??
>> Seriously.  If this is such a showstopper, why not find another language
>> that will do exactly what you want..?  Don?t waste any more of your time.
>> Do it.  You may find the Holy Grail and all will be well? you can look back
>> on your years of hell with LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Not Fridge, Fork.
>>>> 
>>>> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make
>> real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has
>> been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide).
>> Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi
>> and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.
>>>> 
>>>> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary
>> development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary
>> output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple
>> screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or
>> frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts
>> all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc
>> or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses.
>>>> 
>>>> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it
>> made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio
>> techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for
>> controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks
>> on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to
>> including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD,
>> 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That?s how branding
>> works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and
>> graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not
>> conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development
>> environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues
>> working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC
>> running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ?just the way it
>> is?!
>>>> 
>>>> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have
>> the finished app layered out (don?t get me back on the layering embargo),
>> animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to
>> Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in
>> their respective platforms.
>>>> 
>>>> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC
>> is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the
>> same thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest
>> way to realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they
>> match exactly regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any
>> other software we use.
>>>> 
>>>> That?s ?real world? development. Not to mention my current bread and
>> butter job for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+
>> text objects and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a
>> tonne of NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.
>>>> 
>>>> It?s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don?t get too
>> sane. Makes sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month.
>>>> 
>>>> Sean Cole
>>>> Pi Digital
>>>>> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I
>> get
>>>>> things done.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best, Richmond.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 10:03:55 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:03:55 +0300
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <4B7EE6E2-A7E6-4338-864F-38154F2C1B32@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>
 <4B7EE6E2-A7E6-4338-864F-38154F2C1B32@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e943e0ba-59dc-f8ea-2874-bc7d9473b5ed@gmail.com>

You are certainly correct about the non-materialising assurances (pace 
the fund-raiser a few years back where almost none of the stretch goals 
materialised) and the begging for money. Recently LiveCode was 
effectively bankrupt and moved from its (needlessly) expensive offices 
in the centre of Edinburgh's New Town to somewhere less expensive.

I feel that LiveCode (the company) has never matured from "Kevin and his 
mates" to a fully-fledged,
going concern.

It makes me extremely sad, having discovered the "Kevin and his mates" 
versions in 2001/2
(RunRev 1.1.1, 2.0 & 2.0.1) that somewhere down the line things got 
either stuck or skewed,
as a lot of potential seems to have got lost.

Not least its potential as an entry-level language for teaching and as a 
prototyper.

On 25.08.20 16:47, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote:
> Paul
>
> It?s a reasonable question so I?ll afford it the dignity it deserves. Here?s the thing. With thousands of ? invested in them including when they beg for money to help them out during times of distress you end up almost locked into their ecosystem. Besides, my main bread and butter client is 100% LiveCode d?pendant so I HAVE to continue down the LC route.
>
> Unless I do what Richmond suggests, which has often been on my mind, and just jump ship and abandon my client. I?ve had partnerships I?ve had to do this with before, mostly due to their poor business skills though. This one has been nothing but good to me especially since I came out of the mental hospital two years ago. I wouldn?t want to insult him.
>
> And therein lies the rub because, to achieve the html conversion of his app his clients were effectively demanding, I had to have certain assurances from LC before investing yet more thousands of ? into them. However, that has all been proven to be LIES.
>
> And this is the real reason of late I have been up on MY high horse. Because time and time again, things promised are NEVER delivered. Except FMPro so we are led to believe. If they were really making so many sales, Jacque, why on earth would they be begging for money to help them out?? Why don?t they call on their new FM partners or users??
>
> In response to the question ?what on earth made you believe it would be 100% cross platform?. Look on their homepage. The first 2 sections repeat it several times. According to that they have built their own system that delivers just this. Backed up by images that make it appear to be exactly this way with identical screen shots from multiple platforms. And they say it DOES NOT NEED ADDITIONAL CODE!!
>
> How are you going to defend them this time? LC have not responded to this or my other posts. THEY KNOW I?M RIGHT and are keeping out of the frame.
>
> Look at the bug report from my original post. Look at it. 15 years on, STILL NOT FIXED. Confirmed as a bug. Nothing done.
>
> I want to give up so desperately but I am forced into carrying on until LC drive me into hospital yet again. I think I?ve explained enough above to show why that is. I?m doomed. I?m facing my own inevitable demise like someone with cancer.
>
> But I won?t go down without a fight!
>
> All the best to the best of you all. (But not the rest of you) ;)
>
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From pystcat at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 10:35:49 2020
From: pystcat at gmail.com (Paul Pystcat)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:35:49 -0400
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <f581d9db-0541-657b-e4d9-d19bff5da819@gmail.com>
References: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>
 <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
 <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>
 <f581d9db-0541-657b-e4d9-d19bff5da819@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D14EB520-199A-429C-AAFF-818E7212360A@gmail.com>

1. AND a great movie!
2. Correct.. most SHOULD
3. and 4. I honestly don?t know, which is why I asked.  If something was giving me as much grief for as often and as long as the OP has ranted about, on multiple occaisions, I would make my life easier and abandon ship.  Why pull your hair out..?  In time, it will fall out on its own. 
5. Please? joke away!  I?m a big fan of comedy and will give you credit for any jokes I steal use.
6. If you continue to use a hammer instead of a screwdriver, you WILL get the job done? but then don?t curse the wood for damaging
7. I rather enjoy your rants.  I actually look for them in certain threads? please (and I mean this sincerely) Rant Away!  They make my day.

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 9:28 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Well; let's consider that suggestion:
> 
> 1. The Holy Grail was an abstract idea dreamt up by the Knights Templars.
> 
> 2. Most people have worked out by the time they are about 35 that perfection is a dangerous illusion.
> 
> 3. "Years of hell": Why do you suppose the OP has stuck with LiveCode for the length of time he has if it has been 'hell'?
> 
> 4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . . ouch, I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.
> 
> 5. Why do I get a "funny feeling" that by calling yourself 'Paul Pystcat' you are an undercover agent pushing Python (a language
> which I could say one or two "fruity" things about)?
> 
> 6. The OP is NOT a fool; that is quite obvious from his previous postings over a number of years, and he would not be
> posting the sort of thing he posted if he were considering abandonong LiveCode.
> 
> 7. Err . . . on the subject of rants and "squishes" . . .
> 
> On 25.08.20 16:11, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode wrote:
>> I really have to ask?  if you are having such problems that are so insurmountable using LiveCode, then why not just abandon ship??  Seriously.  If this is such a showstopper, why not find another language that will do exactly what you want..?  Don?t waste any more of your time.  Do it.  You may find the Holy Grail and all will be well? you can look back on your years of hell with LiveCode and laugh at us that remain.
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not Fridge, Fork.
>>> 
>>> I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design has been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production guide). Someone like the BBC, Channel 4, NBC, or their subsidiaries. Like Saatchi and Saatchi, Mars, Ford, Pfizer, Virgin, VTech, Bandai.
>>> 
>>> My case study this project. Two week turnaround (first week primary development wireframed , second week skin and output for Windows(primary output)/Mac(Backup)). Tv gameshow multiscreen (some split across multiple screens themselves) for live recording screen graphics. 35 cards (or frames, pages, slides, whatever you want to call them) plus video inserts all with live updated content input by a controller on a remote machine (pc or Mac as they see fit on the day) as the show progresses.
>>> 
>>> As the platform my POC and his office colleagues was using was a PC it made sense to do development in Windows for output to PC and Mac for studio techs to pick from based on location around the studio (the gallery for controllers, back stage and stage floor). It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is how it should look on any other platform we distribute to including the various output sizes (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to match to the pixel. That?s how branding works. We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included) could not conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a development environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to end. That is ?just the way it is?!
>>> 
>>> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the finished app layered out (don?t get me back on the layering embargo), animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms.
>>> 
>>> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the same thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out the fastest way to realign every text box (anything from 2 - 200 per card) so they match exactly regardless of platform. Like is done automatically on any other software we use.
>>> 
>>> That?s ?real world? development. Not to mention my current bread and butter job for Porrima which has, to date, 47 substacks, 377 cards, 10,800+ text objects and  is now being ported from PC o et to HTML5 by way of a tonne of NON-CODE-ONCE workarounds and layout alterations.
>>> 
>>> It?s this kind of BS that keeps me mental, ensures I don?t get too sane. Makes sure you get a good rant out of me every week or month.
>>> 
>>> Sean Cole
>>> Pi Digital
>>>> That is HowTF  (What do you mean exactly by "How Tin Fridge"?) ;-), I get
>>>> things done.
>>>> 
>>>> Best, Richmond.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 11:14:38 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:14:38 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <D14EB520-199A-429C-AAFF-818E7212360A@gmail.com>
References: <244c0836-e03f-ea81-f7e6-935a1aa227a1@gmail.com>
 <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
 <5B1382A6-541C-4F52-BEDA-BF494E0F2C18@gmail.com>
 <f581d9db-0541-657b-e4d9-d19bff5da819@gmail.com>
 <D14EB520-199A-429C-AAFF-818E7212360A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTFiFtx2zCXjPEQeudME4oy_OL+Z1m1US8Cmp0irU71Zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 15:35, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> 6. If you continue to use a hammer instead of a screwdriver, you WILL get
> the job done? but then don?t curse the wood for damaging
>

 In your illustration, who is the wood? LC? Surely they are the hammer (or
the screwdriver). So in that case, who is the wood? My clients? So, okay
then, if you are saying that LC is a hammer and they are damaging my
clients (quite possible and reasonable to consider) then who would be that
'Screwdriver' I can turn to that WILL absolutely be able to allow me to
switch easily (I'm nearly 50 and don't want to invest yet more time and
money into something that may or may not be 'ideal' to our situation) and
provide QUICK turnaround prototypes and working apps (for the most part) to
my tv/video clients and port over software from windows LC code to the web
for my other big client?

Bear in mind, this client of mine came into LC with 0% coding experience,
built his frankly HUMONGOUS app over a period of 10 years with the help of
the likes of Klaus and others of our community, and ONLY knows LC and wants
to be able to continue that while progressing forward for his customers,
the Huge mobile telecoms sales forces of the UK.

Trust, I have done painful amounts of research into the best solutions for
him and the others. Then I ASKED LC to ensure they were committed to fixing
the issues and continue the HTML development of which I was assured so
purchased 2x 3yr licences for me and my client. So far, to date, over the
last 1.27years, they have fixed the delete key two weeks ago and then,
because I kicked up a fuss, they added the arrow keys. However, the shift
key remains non-functional as do all the other modifier keys (although they
have explained why alt cannot work which is fair enough and I can
understand that one - I'm not totally unforgiving or unreasonable).
Copy-paste is still non-functional. The data grid is a mess. Basic text
field operations remain dysfunctional. And LC continue to fail to respond
publicly or privately to this issue or the others I raise. When I message
Ian, the LC developer who HTML has been haded over to since the original
coders jumped ship, to discuss things on GitHub or email I receive no
response from him or any other team member.

So I am at a loss. In limbo. Abandoned! Not even any of you are help me as
I lay here stranded in the middle of an ocean. Other than the same old lame
excuses and saying 'they mean well' and 'they are doing their best' and
'it's just the way it is' or 'has always been'. It's no consolation to me
or my clients for the serious amounts of money and time invested.

If they are not going to deliver, I would just prefer them to be honest,
own up to it, let us know and we can move on knowing where we stand (or
swim, continuing the ocean metaphor).

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 9:28 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 4. "find another language that will do exactly what you want" . . . ouch,
I hurt my leg falling off the chair with laughter.

Hehe :D, my sentiments exactly, Richmond. Nail hit sqaurely by that hammer
(or screwdriver). I feel you and I share a sense of humour and sarcasm
that, if placed in a room together, could start a holocaust. Oopsy ;)

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 11:25:32 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:25:32 +0000
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSRWOFwBRVN1Upj-ThV71gpSV3yODOMMRF8aj9-yfyjwjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSRWOFwBRVN1Upj-ThV71gpSV3yODOMMRF8aj9-yfyjwjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D9093C9B-7834-4649-A11C-ACE15C9E9EE7@iotecdigital.com>

I?m sure there are other development environments out there you could explore.

Bob S


On Aug 24, 2020, at 9:02 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 11:31:29 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:31:29 +0300
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <D9093C9B-7834-4649-A11C-ACE15C9E9EE7@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSRWOFwBRVN1Upj-ThV71gpSV3yODOMMRF8aj9-yfyjwjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D9093C9B-7834-4649-A11C-ACE15C9E9EE7@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <997ea216-ddf3-036b-4de4-42eaece2f9e1@gmail.com>

No: it isn't exactly 'Code once' but it does come pretty near it.

Obviously one of the sticking points is to do with fonts.

My experience with cross-platform development does NOT involve
having to write for each OS. What it has involved is what one might describe
as tweaking and cleaning-up for each target platform . . .

. . . and how much tweaking and cleaning-up tends to vary with the 
nature of one's work.

However, having once been seriously fooled by a "one size fits all" 
operation, I am naturally
fairly chary when it comes to that sort of claim.

On 25.08.20 18:25, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> I?m sure there are other development environments out there you could explore.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2020, at 9:02 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>
> It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
> specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
> cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 11:33:34 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:33:34 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <D9093C9B-7834-4649-A11C-ACE15C9E9EE7@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSRWOFwBRVN1Upj-ThV71gpSV3yODOMMRF8aj9-yfyjwjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D9093C9B-7834-4649-A11C-ACE15C9E9EE7@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTnP=q9A1FtXYKUeCPag6EPkg7YhqQ2mq8pYoeC3=S_HQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your suggestion, Bob. Any pointers?

As I said in my very last post, I DID A PAINFUL AMOUNT OF RESEARCH INTO THE
BEST SOLUTIONS FOR HIM AND THE OTHERS. Saying 'I'm sure there are...'
doesn't make them suddenly spring up, especially considering we are so
invested into LC as it is!! Like, if you'd paid for all the apps on Apple
to find out you don't like their privacy policy, so move over to the ONLY
other supplier of Android, only to have to buy all those apps again for
that platform and THEN find out their policy is just as bad, if not worse!!

Your argument is redundant and invalid. Unaccepted! Quite rightly in fact!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 16:25, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I?m sure there are other development environments out there you could
> explore.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2020, at 9:02 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
>
> It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
> specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
> cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 11:36:34 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:36:34 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <997ea216-ddf3-036b-4de4-42eaece2f9e1@gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CABRqQSRWOFwBRVN1Upj-ThV71gpSV3yODOMMRF8aj9-yfyjwjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D9093C9B-7834-4649-A11C-ACE15C9E9EE7@iotecdigital.com>
 <997ea216-ddf3-036b-4de4-42eaece2f9e1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSQXvJUkFFMZLh1tKOkWbG4v3Go2Xw+V_yUsNik4Mdhc4g@mail.gmail.com>

Feck ONE of the sticking points. There are a crap load of hoops I have to
jump through to make them work cross platform. The font thing is just my
latest little annoyance that puts me up on my soap box. I've been truly
shafted by the plethora of fekkin' NON-CODE-ONCE stuff we HAVE to do to
make them work cross platform. SERIOUSLY!!?! ONE!! FTFRO!! Thats both legs
broken now, thanks!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *


On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 16:31, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> No: it isn't exactly 'Code once' but it does come pretty near it.
>
> Obviously one of the sticking points is to do with fonts.
>
> My experience with cross-platform development does NOT involve
> having to write for each OS. What it has involved is what one might
> describe
> as tweaking and cleaning-up for each target platform . . .
>
> . . . and how much tweaking and cleaning-up tends to vary with the
> nature of one's work.
>
> However, having once been seriously fooled by a "one size fits all"
> operation, I am naturally
> fairly chary when it comes to that sort of claim.
>
> On 25.08.20 18:25, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> > I?m sure there are other development environments out there you could
> explore.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> > On Aug 24, 2020, at 9:02 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > It's hardly 'Code Once' then. You absolutely HAVE to write for each OS
> > specifically. Livecode DOES NOT pull up the slack and make it work
> > cross-platform identically as insinuated in their homepage.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 11:40:07 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:40:07 +0000
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
Message-ID: <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>

mySQL for which platform? Last I checked, the build for Windows did NOT support encryption. There is a special branch that does, but I could never get it to work.

What I came up with is an agent that resides on the SQL server, built in Livecode that listens for connections. It then handles the queries locally and returns the data.

The client and Server encrypt the data before sending it using a method only I know, so it?s very secure. The communications are done but I haven?t done the actual query side yet. That will be a half day?s work at most.

I think this client server approach is far better than native encryption, because I control the method and use a technique where even if someone tried brute force, or somehow discovered the key, they still could not decrypt the data, and wouldn?t know why.

Bob S


On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Dear livecode programmers,

For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB database (no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.

The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the SSL encryption suddenly stopped working.

The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).

There are the tests:

*From the server:*


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 11:42:28 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:42:28 +0000
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
Message-ID: <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>

Try the execution contexts. And yes, this me will return the behavior object itself.

Bob S


On Aug 24, 2020, at 8:18 PM, prothero--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

I have assigned a behavior to a button. The behavior button/source is on a different stack. It works fine. But a click on a movie player, on the same card, triggers the mouseUp handler in the behavior, which I don?t want to happen. It seems odd that this would happen, but I need to fix it.

My solution is to test whether the target is the button, or something else. I solved it by trapping the mouseUp message in a script on the player. However, I was trying to figure out how to get the behavior to give me the source/origin of the mouseUp message. I can get the name of the card using ?the owner? but can?t seem to find the right syntax to get the name of the button that the behavior is attached to.

This is probably trivial, but I?d appreciate any help.

Thanks,
Bill

William A. Prothero
Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
http://earthlearningsolutions.org/


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 12:40:35 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:40:35 +0100
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>

I LOVE 'this me'. This extraordinary use of coding language is truly where
LC  shines and why I love it so much, - sometimes. [sigh]

Sean


From jiml at netrin.com  Tue Aug 25 13:14:17 2020
From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:14:17 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>

> Sean wrote:
> 
> So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have the finished app ... ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms. 
> 
> Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the same thing.  Now with only one day to go 

Knowing that the deliverables would be required to run on Windows and Mac, prudent project management would dictate repeated testing on both platforms during the "12 solid 14-18 hour days" of development. You might want to adjust your testing approach for future projects.

Jim Lambert

From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 13:48:26 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:48:26 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
References: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSRRWsg5C2hyyZgoA22uTfXpyDtJDeJi9En644ZP3a6KqA@mail.gmail.com>

Jim,

You might want to give me more time for this kind of testing (those solid
hours were solid hours because of the late timing nearly every TV
production company works to) and have a word with my clients to ensure this.

Not to mention with LC who make the claim it is code-once and won't need
adjusting!!

In fact, Jim, if I were you I would have determined that this is NOT
something new to me! But is, nonetheless frustrating when you are faced
with the inevitability of it yet again.

Had I done the test earlier on in the process and found it to yet again be
the case (after all it has been the case for at least 15years based on the
bug report), what, pray you, would have ade the outcome any different tat
would not necessitate me at the end of the whole job having to go over all
of it and redo all the layouts because of something LC COULD HAVE DONE
SOMETHING ABOUT 15, 14,13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 or one years
ago????

Your argument also is redundant and without merit. This is not my first
rodeo. I AM BRINGING TO LIGHT AND to THE SURFACE THE OBVIOUS FLAWS IN OUR
MIDST!!

"It might have been prudent!!". Thanks for your insulting input. I forgot
that after 15 years of having my own business it might occur to me to test
it out. I'm such a moron, aren't I! (SERIOUSLY!!!)

> You might want to adjust your testing approach for future projects.


Oh, pray tell!! What can be done seeing as asking LC to FIX THE GOD DAMNED
THING never actually happens and we have to face these GD workarounds time
and time again. Go! Tell me. You are obviously far more insightful than
everyone else to the point of telling me how to run my business strategy.
TELL ME WHAT I COULD HAVE DONE AFTER TESTING FOR IT??

Watch out, I'm surrounded by 'them'... It's almost abusive!

Seriously, if you are not from LC and actually have an answer to this and
all of the other issues related I don't want to hear any more excuses or
valued opinions. They only end up winding me up more. I pay for something I
do not get. It's written on the virtual box front and back. It should
deliver what it promises and what I and my clients (LC's end-of-line
customers) pay for.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital*

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 18:14, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> > Sean wrote:
> >
> > So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have
> the finished app ... ready for deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the boxes
> in the standalone settings, build and open in their respective platforms.
> >
> > Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC
> is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s the
> same thing.  Now with only one day to go
>
> Knowing that the deliverables would be required to run on Windows and Mac,
> prudent project management would dictate repeated testing on both platforms
> during the "12 solid 14-18 hour days" of development. You might want to
> adjust your testing approach for future projects.
>
> Jim Lambert
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com  Tue Aug 25 13:51:19 2020
From: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com (Andrew at MidWest Coast Media)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 13:51:19 -0400
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>

Sean-

My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I?ve built web sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because you?re right, the HTML5 port isn?t ready for primetime).

Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks, but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF in a web browser or desktop computer so they won?t look the same: and there?s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an image, but you still can?t make-up for the color gamut differences). The WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code and won?t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they did "work".

Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app development. Whether it?s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren?t cheap, and the cheap ones aren?t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple formats). The closest I?ve come has been to run some scripts when populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the design. Text doesn?t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does. Text doesn?t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does. It?s a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department seems to have another ?small change? along the way.

Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting background you understand that a projects aren?t ?done? until the deadline: there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.

While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you are referring to. I say ?imagine? because I don?t know, and never had to learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the various programming environments I?ve previously developed for. My copy of Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell, and it wasn?t a fireable offense for the development team.

?Andrew Bell


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Aug 25 14:32:52 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:32:52 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <5AB559AC-A464-4CC6-A8D8-BE0428324E32@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e30f07d8-6e52-e7c1-fcb0-cef1e8d19a7b@fourthworld.com>

Sean Cole wrote:

 > I assume (dangerously) from your reply that you do not have to make
 > real world applications for corporate branded customers. Where design
 > has been done by a branding team with a 12 - 120 page Production
 > guide). Someone like the BBC....

A good way to analyze a problem is to find existing examples of how 
successful organizations handle the problem we're facing.

With font rendering across platforms, we can look at how BBC themselves 
handle that.

In this image you'll find two screen shots of a lead story block from 
bbc.co.uk/news, where the top image is from macOS and the bottom from 
Windows.  Both had the latest OS versions, and both used the same 
browser version (freshly-downloaded Chrome, the world's most popular, so 
a good test case), where the browser window was set to the same width 
(1020px):

http://fourthworld.net/lc/Mac-Win-Fonts.png

Evident differences include:
- text weight
- kerning
- leading
- antialiasing

Indeed, the kerning differences are pronounced enough that even BBC's 
expert web team using a modern CSS spec designed by experts and rendered 
in a browser made by one of the most powerful corporations on earth is 
still so pronounced that both the story's title and summary wrap 
differently between the two platforms.


Operating systems matter, and even the best effort to reduce the effects 
of the differences between them cannot make them the same, as they are 
made by very different organizations with very different methodologies 
and priorities.

The article Jacque provided was useful, relevant, succinct, and 
apparently ignored, so it's worth including here again:

https://damieng.com/blog/2007/06/13/font-rendering-philosophies-of-windows-and-mac-os-x


Since everything we've ever seen in all of computing reminds us that 
different OSes behave differently, when we want a given font rendering 
to be identical on both platforms, as Richmond noted we can generate an 
image of the text we want and use the image instead of the text.

That is of course impractical and often undesirable for body text, which 
is why body text is frequently seen differently on different platforms. 
But for absolutely critical elements like logos, it's what most experts 
do.  Indeed, the BBC logo could have been implemented as a font, but for 
precision across platform apparently they chose to use an SVG file.



 > It is arse-umed that how it looks on Windows is how it should look on
 > any other platform we distribute to including the various output sizes
 > (1024x576SD, 960x540HHD, 1920x1080HD, 3840x2160 4k). Everything has to
 > match to the pixel. That?s how branding works.

Apparently for their most visible asset, their web site, BBC feels 
branding can be driven by other priorities according to the relevance of 
a given element to their brand: logos are images, article text is left 
to the OS.


--- On the inherent difficulty of the task:

 > We have no issue with that moving between platforms in editing and
 > graphics platforms, so post production facilities (mine included)
 > could not conceive or perceive that it would be any different in a
 > development environment. Design it in photoshop on a pc and send it
 > to your colleagues working in After Effects on a Mac and send it back
 > to an editor on a PC running Premiere and it looks the same end to
 > end. That is ?just the way it is?!

That's "just the way it is" in highly specific circumstances in which 
you exercise great care with how the document is set up and limit what 
you're doing to a narrow subset of software that includes its own 
font-rendering subsystem.

You will not find this in word processors, or spreadsheets, or database 
front-ends, or the web, or most other software outside of specialized 
graphics productions tools.  Even in programs that allow custom kerning, 
like some word processors, will show differences in line wrap between OSes.

It would be nice if any single tool could do all things that all 
possible software can do.  But nothing in the universe works like that, 
and software is no exception.

Thankfully, with extensibility mechanisms like widgets, FFI, and 
externals, LiveCode can be a foundation to include things far beyond its 
out-of-the-box capabilities.  If you want to embed a custom font 
rendering subsystem, I'll be it would cost you no more than Adobe spent 
developing theirs (which, given the considerable time, expertise, and 
licensing required, I'd venture to guess would cost somewhere between 
US$100k 200k, possibly more).

While you ponder funding sources for that, you could just as easily do 
what other production companies like my friends here in Hollywoodland 
do, and as Richmond suggested earlier: if you want pixel-perfect 
identical rasterization across platforms, rasterize it yourself to your 
satisfaction and use the resulting image in production.

Rasterized output is how Photoshop is most commonly used in production.



--- On the larger issue of workflow pressure:

 > So, after developing at a stupid rate, 12 solid 14-18hr days, we have
 > the finished app layered out (don?t get me back on the layering
 > embargo), animated with text & graphic moves and effects, ready for
 > deployment out to Mac and PC. Tick the boxes in the standalone
 > settings, build and open in their respective platforms.
 >
 > Only to find that everything you had laid out perfectly matching on PC
 > is totally screwed on the Mac. Opening up the stack on the Mac, it?s
 > the same thing. Now with only one day to go I am forced to work out
 > the fastest way to realign every text box...

This circumstance seems a common source of complaint:  you develop a 
system, do not test it in a production environment until close to 
production, discover differences between your development and deployment 
systems, and feel pressure to adjust for those differences in the small 
amount of time remaining.

To solve the issue, we can start by reviewing the problem constraints we 
know with certainty:

- We cannot control how operating systems are made.

- Given differing goals and needs, differences between development
   and deployment systems are inevitable.

- Motion picture and television production schedules require
   coordinating so many resources that it's nearly impossible
   to shift deadlines.

Given these constraints, the problem becomes solvable by tailoring your 
schedule and workflow to incorporate review on the delivery system 
earlier in the process, and ongoing throughout the work.



 > As I said in my very last post, I DID A PAINFUL AMOUNT OF RESEARCH
 > INTO THE BEST SOLUTIONS FOR HIM AND THE OTHERS. Saying 'I'm sure there
 > are...' doesn't make them suddenly spring up....

The absence of tools that meet your expectations suggests altering 
expectations.

Or finding suitable investment to build such a tool.

Either way, you are in control of the situation.



--- A tautology as purchasing guidance, with historical lesson learned:


 > Trust, I have done painful amounts of research into the best solutions
 > for him and the others. Then I ASKED LC to ensure they were committed
 > to fixing the issues and continue the HTML development...

At any given moment, with all things, what you have in hand is what you 
have in hand.

If you have a statement of intentions, then what you have is a statement 
of intentions.  They may be good intentions, and where intentions are 
what you're looking for go for it.

But if what you're looking for is finished software that fully meets 
your needs, anything other than finished software that fully meets your 
needs isn't what you're looking for.

Once upon a time I invested heavily in SuperCard for Windows.  It never 
shipped.  Good team, good funding, good intentions.  Things happen.

When I invested, what I had in my hands was not a version of SuperCard 
running on Windows.  What I had was a description of SuperCard running 
on Windows.  But it turns out that a description of software isn't software.

So this is helpful guidance, which I've written here many times over the 
years and will repeat again:

Only finished software you can evaluate firsthand is finished software 
you can evaluate firsthand.



--- On deploying to the Web:

I invested in the HTML fundraiser too.  But I consciously invested in a 
*description* of a system with a prototype. I did my research on what 
Emscripten is, and what it isn't. And after having done the due 
diligence I do with any investment, I adjusted my expectations and 
invested just the same.  But at no point did I believe I was investing 
in anything other than what it is: a scripting language translated into 
another scripting language with an object model rendered inside an alien 
object model. I understand the limits of such an attempt, and never 
imagined it could be finished for the proposed budget. I invested 
because I felt worthwhile things may be learned along the way.

My investment was made with eyes wide open, and I made it not because I 
needed it. If I truly needed it I would have waited until it exists so I 
could see if what exists might be what I need.

I do web deployments every day. Most of my clients are enjoying 
satisfying blends of native LC apps with all the benefits of web 
deployment: instant updates, shared data across devices, collaborative 
workflows, etc. Total freedom, total feature parity, with tailorable 
security giving me more options than browsers allow for desktop 
integration, or even more secure than most browsers, as any given 
project might need.

I've been doing this for 20 years.

I just don't limit my work to the confines of a browser window. I use 
the web protocol inside a standalone.

When I *must* run something in a browser window (fewer circumstances 
than some might think), I choose the with-the-grain way to do that, 
using browser-native methods (HTML/CSS/JS).

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com




From mark at livecode.com  Tue Aug 25 14:51:41 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:51:41 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <307c9875d12e3a6ad621dbe8cef34717@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-24 21:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show 
> brand.
> They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually 
> go
> through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
> properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
> vertical position certainly never matches.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0

I suspect the main issue with vertical alignment here is to do with the 
font.

This very readable article contains the relevant information here as 
well as how the problem can be resolved:

<https://www.williamrchase.com/post/font-height-differences-between-windows-and-mac/>

TL;DR; version - the custom font probably does not have the correct 
settings/tables for use in programs which use the system text engines on 
*both* Mac and Windows.

FWIW, LiveCode fields try to match the way the running platform displays 
text in OS editable fields.

Specifically, text in a field on macOS will look almost the same as that 
in TextEdit; and text in a field on Windows will look almost the same as 
that in WordPad (DPI differences taken into account - LC assumes 72dpi, 
Win assumes 96dpi).

Unfortunately this means you do need to do some work (i.e. scripting) if 
you want to use LiveCode fields in more 'graphical' situations - e.g. as 
the labels on custom buttons.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. It is perfectly possible that fettling with the metrics detailed in 
the article above would mean you could achieve identical vertical layout 
on macOS and Windows but it isn't something I have actually tried.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create app



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Tue Aug 25 15:10:00 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:10:00 -0400
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
References: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
Message-ID: <003101d67b13$580e3710$082aa530$@net>

Couple of thoughts here.

PDFs:
I've been using PDFs since the early 90s (and postscript too). Even though I
detest the strangle hold that Adobe has on its PDF writer, reader and full
Acrobat, it has been the only reliable cross platform format I use that can
(most times) retain font Size, wrapping, kerning, leading and weight. PDFs
can be generated on any platform and still go to pre-press with confidence.
Not that there can't be snafus because of fonts not embedded or fonts that
are embedded incorrectly(more about that later). It's also not at its core a
programming language although one can write plugins.

Font "Consistent" Applications:
Indesign can keep a document consistent across platforms but that's all it
does. It's not at its core a programming language although one can also
write plugins. I do Mac/PC Indesign and it's in my cases 100% the same.

Now MSWord... It can also be cross platform consistent with a rub. If you
use the bold face of a font and send it to another person that doesn't have
the bold face Word will do the math and make the plain face bold and things
will not kern correctly. It does this without warning. Word will also does
silent font substations(a nightmare). Now send that file to a another user
with the bold font and it will be used and now kern correctly BUT the
document will not PDF correctly. Embedded fonts will have wrong names. I
spent a week one day ferreting this out. We got it straight but funny enough
like 5 years later that customers bad version of the document made its way
back to us with the same but different font issues.

Font Naming:
Font names and aggregating font families is totally different between
InDesign and MS Word on the same platform. InDesign will be consistent
between platforms but for the price I pay for the yearly subscription it
better. There are like 3 names in the font. I don't remember the exact
details but it was something like base name/family/face. And still in 2020
this has not been addressed in a user friendly way. There must be some
historical reasons for this. Maybe it was MAC/PC wars or Adobe sticking
their 2 cents in with ATM in the 90's to early 2000s. Why font names for the
same font are not the same in 2020 across Mac/Win/Linux/iOS/Android is
beyond me but I deal with it.

LC:
It would be ideal if font names/rendering was consistent between platforms
but I don't compose books in LC. When I need exact matching I use images.
This is what I did for pre-storyboard iOS splash screens.  Images were only
way to match the fonts of the IDE generated splash screens to the first card
rendered in iOS. I also use images to have customer logos with text to look
correctly. If you think that LC can be slow scrolling you don't want to
think how slow it could be if LC implemented the types of things that
InDesign does to keep fonts looking the same across platforms. Even in LC
the only way to keep exact formatting is to use the PDF Widget(back to PDFs
again).

Conclusion:
LC is not a high-end composition tool. After programming in like 15 or more
languages from 1620 SPS to LC, I find LC to be a pleasure. From chunks to
DBs to http tsNet to cross-platform to extensibility it's a daily load off
my brain. Yes there can be some ugly workarounds now and again but in the
end I save time and a bunch of brain cells. The fact there are workarounds
in most cases sometimes amazes me. Between this list, getting the Mothership
to chime in and Panos's help, I'm all in and will support LC to the end of
my programming days.

As the boss said in "Casino". "At least that's the way I feel"


Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 15:59:21 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:59:21 +0300
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSRRWsg5C2hyyZgoA22uTfXpyDtJDeJi9En644ZP3a6KqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
 <CABRqQSRRWsg5C2hyyZgoA22uTfXpyDtJDeJi9En644ZP3a6KqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0aea222-713e-6493-582d-9846c29d4d1b@gmail.com>

This sort of stuff will NOT help you at all; it appears intemperate and 
is aimed (if it has to be
aimed at all) at the wrong people.

You have just managed to lose my sympathy completely, for what it's worth.

"redundant and without merit": judgemental, arrogant, and so on: 
obviously you need to go
away and either calm down or boil your head.

On 25.08.20 20:48, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> Your argument also is redundant and without merit. This is not my first
> rodeo. I AM BRINGING TO LIGHT AND to THE SURFACE THE OBVIOUS FLAWS IN OUR
> MIDST!!




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 18:04:59 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:04:59 +0000
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
Message-ID: <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>

I?ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary (I thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN font on both platforms! 

The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something like a Header or a Label, it wouldn?t be either the font chosen OR bold in Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac. 

The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What can they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying to do? It?s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at the application level. 

THAT BEING SAID?
What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to install them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get. 

Bob S


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Sean-
> 
> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I?ve built web sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because you?re right, the HTML5 port isn?t ready for primetime).
> 
> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks, but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF in a web browser or desktop computer so they won?t look the same: and there?s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an image, but you still can?t make-up for the color gamut differences). The WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code and won?t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they did "work".
> 
> Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app development. Whether it?s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren?t cheap, and the cheap ones aren?t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple formats). The closest I?ve come has been to run some scripts when populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the design. Text doesn?t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does. Text doesn?t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does. It?s a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department seems to have another ?small change? along the way.
> 
> Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting background you understand that a projects aren?t ?done? until the deadline: there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.
> 
> While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you are referring to. I say ?imagine? because I don?t know, and never had to learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the various programming environments I?ve previously developed for. My copy of Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell, and it wasn?t a fireable offense for the development team.
> 
> ?Andrew Bell
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Tue Aug 25 18:22:25 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:22:25 +0200
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <307c9875d12e3a6ad621dbe8cef34717@livecode.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <307c9875d12e3a6ad621dbe8cef34717@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <DA27DDA7-2FAE-43B5-95F3-5930C3C7A96E@m-r-d.de>

Mark,

Although i am not the original creator of this topic, I think this really is a very interesting article.

But there is a caveeat. The licensing of commercial fonts very often does not allow modification of the font.
And if in the rare case the modification is allowed, then normally it is only allowed to use the modified font then for internal business or private use and a distribution or transfer is not allowed.

Anyway, a very interesting article, which at least gives a clue how to resolve the layout out problem.


Matthias

 
> Am 25.08.2020 um 20:51 schrieb Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> On 2020-08-24 21:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>> My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show brand.
>> They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually go
>> through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
>> properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
>> vertical position certainly never matches.
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
> 
> I suspect the main issue with vertical alignment here is to do with the font.
> 
> This very readable article contains the relevant information here as well as how the problem can be resolved:
> 
> <https://www.williamrchase.com/post/font-height-differences-between-windows-and-mac/>




From martyknappster at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 18:27:35 2020
From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:27:35 -0700
Subject: Big Sur issues
Message-ID: <2DF06255-1DF8-45BB-BC72-533357B85A82@gmail.com>

I just installed the latest beta of the Big Sur OS on my MacBook Pro and ran an LC app built in 9.6.1 (that works fine on Catalina) and right off it looks like 2 things are broken:

1) Tabbed buttons - the active tab does not show the text, it?s just blank white. Tried both Light and Dark modes with no difference
2) WindowShape - whatever graphic you?ve selected for the shape is ignored

Anybody else finding these or other issues?

Marty


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 18:40:25 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:40:25 +0000
Subject: Big Sur issues
In-Reply-To: <2DF06255-1DF8-45BB-BC72-533357B85A82@gmail.com>
References: <2DF06255-1DF8-45BB-BC72-533357B85A82@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <76194D90-381B-431D-BB6D-7FB28A7CADA1@iotecdigital.com>

FYI I recently built my own tab control that looks almost exactly like the one the Mac displays, but it has two advantages: 

1. It looks good on both Windows AND Mac. 
2. It has support for Drag and Drop. 

You edit the tabs by right-clicking in the ?pane? of the group object, then selecting Tabs. You use an answer dialog to enter a comma separated list of tabs. When these are built there are invisible buttons created over the top of the Segmented Control Widget tabs. (The only reason I did this is so I could drag over a button and it would hilite, and also because I could create a behavior that is applied to ALL the buttons, so I only have one place to go to edit the code for them.) 

Sizing works for every side but the top. I haven?t spent any time trying to figure that one out. Also, I?ve had problems adding more than one tab at a time, but I think I know what is wrong there. 

Let me know and I will try to kludge together a sample stack. 

Bob S


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:27 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I just installed the latest beta of the Big Sur OS on my MacBook Pro and ran an LC app built in 9.6.1 (that works fine on Catalina) and right off it looks like 2 things are broken:
> 
> 1) Tabbed buttons - the active tab does not show the text, it?s just blank white. Tried both Light and Dark modes with no difference
> 2) WindowShape - whatever graphic you?ve selected for the shape is ignored
> 
> Anybody else finding these or other issues?
> 
> Marty
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Tue Aug 25 18:43:18 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:43:18 -0500
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <d0aea222-713e-6493-582d-9846c29d4d1b@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
 <CABRqQSRRWsg5C2hyyZgoA22uTfXpyDtJDeJi9En644ZP3a6KqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d0aea222-713e-6493-582d-9846c29d4d1b@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <388df6e9-4fc6-9705-54bc-2581f4e7a2e2@hyperactivesw.com>

Kudos also to Mark Waddingham who calmly delivered supportive info in an even response, even 
after reading for days how he and the team are liars, incompetents, and cheats.

On 8/25/20 2:59 PM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
> This sort of stuff will NOT help you at all; it appears intemperate and is aimed (if it has to be
> aimed at all) at the wrong people.
> 
> You have just managed to lose my sympathy completely, for what it's worth.
> 
> "redundant and without merit": judgemental, arrogant, and so on: obviously you need to go
> away and either calm down or boil your head.
> 
> On 25.08.20 20:48, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>> Your argument also is redundant and without merit. This is not my first
>> rodeo. I AM BRINGING TO LIGHT AND to THE SURFACE THE OBVIOUS FLAWS IN OUR
>> MIDST!!



-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 18:43:53 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:43:53 +0000
Subject: Getting page counts of PDFs
In-Reply-To: <002801d67958$31fc4e70$95f4eb50$@net>
References: <B0499AA6-0BB2-4812-9A28-5DFA4E2B03CC@hindu.org>
 <178A8912-DF65-4939-9050-76738915789B@rogers.com>
 <EC2860F7-1BD4-49AC-A776-533D47377602@hindu.org>
 <E33DFF01-A923-4C82-8754-D61641BB03AD@hindu.org>
 <12217CF4-7816-41E5-B132-0074596A8AEE@gmail.com>
 <002801d67958$31fc4e70$95f4eb50$@net>
Message-ID: <4BB480BE-9181-4E29-8C47-3C986F877A81@iotecdigital.com>

Me too. I stopped before my head exploded and my brain fell out onto the floor like scrambled eggs. :-)

Bob S


On Aug 23, 2020, at 7:17 AM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

PDF Widget will do the trick. I start reading the PDF spec 20 years ago and got a giant headache.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net<mailto:rdimola at evergreeninfo.net>



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 18:44:49 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:44:49 +0000
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <388df6e9-4fc6-9705-54bc-2581f4e7a2e2@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
 <CABRqQSRRWsg5C2hyyZgoA22uTfXpyDtJDeJi9En644ZP3a6KqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d0aea222-713e-6493-582d-9846c29d4d1b@gmail.com>
 <388df6e9-4fc6-9705-54bc-2581f4e7a2e2@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <B61BD3F3-8CF6-436F-86E1-456BF01A6698@iotecdigital.com>

+10

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:43 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Kudos also to Mark Waddingham who calmly delivered supportive info in an even response, even after reading for days how he and the team are liars, incompetents, and cheats.
> 
> On 8/25/20 2:59 PM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
>> This sort of stuff will NOT help you at all; it appears intemperate and is aimed (if it has to be
>> aimed at all) at the wrong people.
>> You have just managed to lose my sympathy completely, for what it's worth.
>> "redundant and without merit": judgemental, arrogant, and so on: obviously you need to go
>> away and either calm down or boil your head.
>> On 25.08.20 20:48, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Your argument also is redundant and without merit. This is not my first
>>> rodeo. I AM BRINGING TO LIGHT AND to THE SURFACE THE OBVIOUS FLAWS IN OUR
>>> MIDST!!
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Tue Aug 25 18:48:00 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:48:00 +0200
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <388df6e9-4fc6-9705-54bc-2581f4e7a2e2@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
 <CABRqQSRRWsg5C2hyyZgoA22uTfXpyDtJDeJi9En644ZP3a6KqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d0aea222-713e-6493-582d-9846c29d4d1b@gmail.com>
 <388df6e9-4fc6-9705-54bc-2581f4e7a2e2@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <864E4CE7-8940-4ACA-971E-288569652DE0@m-r-d.de>

?

-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
> Am 26.08.2020 um 00:43 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Kudos also to Mark Waddingham who calmly delivered supportive info in an even response, even after reading for days how he and the team are liars, incompetents, and cheats.
> 
> On 8/25/20 2:59 PM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
>> This sort of stuff will NOT help you at all; it appears intemperate and is aimed (if it has to be
>> aimed at all) at the wrong people.
>> You have just managed to lose my sympathy completely, for what it's worth.
>> "redundant and without merit": judgemental, arrogant, and so on: obviously you need to go
>> away and either calm down or boil your head.
>> On 25.08.20 20:48, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Your argument also is redundant and without merit. This is not my first
>>> rodeo. I AM BRINGING TO LIGHT AND to THE SURFACE THE OBVIOUS FLAWS IN OUR
>>> MIDST!!
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com <mailto:jacque at hyperactivesw.com>
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com <http://www.hyperactivesw.com/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode <http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>


From waprothero at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 18:48:58 2020
From: waprothero at gmail.com (William Prothero)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:48:58 -0700
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F607534A-4ED8-4110-B7FE-EEA8E548B476@gmail.com>

I assumed the script would be:
on mouseUp
   put  this me into theName  ?theName is blank.
end mouseUP

However, it gave me a blank. 

I found that this works, though.
on mouseUP
   put the exectionContext into theName
end mouseUp

Thanks,
Bill

William A. Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 9:40 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I LOVE 'this me'. This extraordinary use of coding language is truly where
> LC  shines and why I love it so much, - sometimes. [sigh]
> 
> Sean
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 18:52:07 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:52:07 +0000
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <F607534A-4ED8-4110-B7FE-EEA8E548B476@gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F607534A-4ED8-4110-B7FE-EEA8E548B476@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <39BD6218-DFDE-4026-ACA9-5EEB810E09EA@iotecdigital.com>

This Me only works in the behavior script, not the button script. Not sure if that helps.

Bob S


On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:48 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

I assumed the script would be:
on mouseUp
  put  this me into theName  ?theName is blank.
end mouseUP

However, it gave me a blank.

I found that this works, though.
on mouseUP
  put the exectionContext into theName
end mouseUp

Thanks,
Bill

William A. Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org<https://earthlearningsolutions.org/>


From jiml at netrin.com  Tue Aug 25 19:17:53 2020
From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:17:53 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1598395722.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.10.1598395722.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <E9FF5908-1C0A-462E-A66E-309351FE9630@netrin.com>

Sean wrote:

> Jim,
> 
> You might want to give me more time for this kind of testing 
Granted! I give you all the time in the world.

>  and have a word with my clients to ensure this.
Ah sorry, can't help there, for that would be your job when responding to requests for proposals.

Jim Lambert



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 19:24:07 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:24:07 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <864E4CE7-8940-4ACA-971E-288569652DE0@m-r-d.de>
References: <864E4CE7-8940-4ACA-971E-288569652DE0@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <09CC4C0B-E7FE-41E8-8395-56F3BFD88582@pidigital.co.uk>

>> Am 26.08.2020 um 00:43 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Kudos also to Mark Waddingham who calmly delivered supportive info in an even response, even after reading for days how he and the team are liars, incompetents, and cheats


That would be the case if it wasn?t completely irrelevant to desktop display and aimed at browser rendering. 

-20

My claims still stand. Read my next post for context. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital


> On 25 Aug 2020, at 23:48, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ??
> 
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
>> .
>> 
>>> On 8/25/20 2:59 PM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
>>> This sort of stuff will NOT help you at all; it appears intemperate and is aimed (if it has to be
>>> aimed at all) at the wrong people.
>>> You have just managed to lose my sympathy completely, for what it's worth.
>>> "redundant and without merit": judgemental, arrogant, and so on: obviously you need to go
>>> away and either calm down or boil your head.
>>> On 25.08.20 20:48, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>>>> Your argument also is redundant and without merit. This is not my first
>>>> rodeo. I AM BRINGING TO LIGHT AND to THE SURFACE THE OBVIOUS FLAWS IN OUR
>>>> MIDST!!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com <mailto:jacque at hyperactivesw.com>
>> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com <http://www.hyperactivesw.com/>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode <http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 19:24:11 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:24:11 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <307c9875d12e3a6ad621dbe8cef34717@livecode.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <307c9875d12e3a6ad621dbe8cef34717@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTt_cR-Mhom0oLD7Ay3VuoPR1rzKL32pGKLv9Kczx7Q=A@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

thanks for the response although only partially addressing the issue. That
article (the first one to come up on a google search, so well done on your
'research') is aimed at web layout in a browser. NOTHING to do with desktop
platform rendering which is a wholly different subject. And the writers
'hack' is not universal and only works based on that particular font. A
very makeshift workaround (which is what we are incumbent on because of all
the bugs (below) not yet ironed out - AFTER MANY YEARS!)

Heres a far more relevant article by, yep, Adobe.
https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/photoshop/using/fonts.html Look at the OpenType
fonts section. The fonts I use are ALWAYS otf. Without fail. As Adobe says,
"OpenType fonts use a single font file for both Windows and Macintosh
computers, so you can move files from one platform to another without
worrying about font substitution and other problems that cause text to
reflow". They are platform agnostic. There are some caveats, for sure, but
within the constraints of LC with its own engine, these won't apply. An OTF
installed on ANY platform (other than a browser) will render identically
with regards size, shape, height, line height, kerning and so on. There's
no variance. It's pure mathematics. That's the point! (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenType)

Spelling it out to you, here are all of the related bug reports. Confirmed
bug reports. Confirmed they are bugs. Bugs that Can and Should be fixed. It
won't take 10s of 1000s of $ as whatshisface Gaskin made it seem. I have
and DO code workarounds for it all the sodding time. But CODE
ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pfft, CODE ONCE. I AM SICK OF ALL THIS BS BEING
THROWN BACK AT ME as if it's me that caused the issue. SERIOUSLY!!!!!! YOU
all MAKE ME WILD with all your apologist brushing off and glossing over.
MAKE IT FLIPPIN WORK!!!!

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2707
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2081
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3076
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12176
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13551 (sideways related)
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18748 (Related and listed by
none other than Whatshisface Gaskin himself!)
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19513
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21426

Plus all of the 'Duplicate' references therein.

If you are changing font or having to use different font between system I
can FULLY understand why they would appear different. Even something like
Arial in one system is bound to not be exactly the same font in both
systems. I totally accept that fact and have to deal with it accordingly.

BUT if the font is a custom, professionally made font or even a freebie
crap font, installed on both systems they should appear the same size (the
point size is not some arbitrary number) with the same fixed line height
and formattedHeight (again, not arbitrary) with identical baselines
calculated in exactly the same way. It's basic maths. It's an engine fault,
not a system one. It requires a teeny bit of scientific testing with some
custom fonts between platforms.

--

Based on the above reports and others like them, it's evident I'm not
making this up, or being precious or getting worked up over NOTHING! We
should get what we pay for and what LC advertise on their virtual box
(landing page).   *I* didn't say it's CODE ONCE.    *THEY* put it like
that! If it's not something LC can live up to they should change it. You
can barely code once anything in lc that is cross-platform. Seriously,
prove me wrong! But don't demonise me. I wasn't the one to make the claim.
I'm pointing out how false it is and trying to get things working as they
should. And certainly don't try to pull the wool over my eyes with
incredibly badly thought out reasoning. I'm done with people fobbing me
off.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 19:51, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2020-08-24 21:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> > My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show
> > brand.
> > They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually
> > go
> > through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
> > properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
> > vertical position certainly never matches.
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
>
> I suspect the main issue with vertical alignment here is to do with the
> font.
>
> This very readable article contains the relevant information here as
> well as how the problem can be resolved:
>
> <
> https://www.williamrchase.com/post/font-height-differences-between-windows-and-mac/
> >
>
> TL;DR; version - the custom font probably does not have the correct
> settings/tables for use in programs which use the system text engines on
> *both* Mac and Windows.
>
> FWIW, LiveCode fields try to match the way the running platform displays
> text in OS editable fields.
>
> Specifically, text in a field on macOS will look almost the same as that
> in TextEdit; and text in a field on Windows will look almost the same as
> that in WordPad (DPI differences taken into account - LC assumes 72dpi,
> Win assumes 96dpi).
>
> Unfortunately this means you do need to do some work (i.e. scripting) if
> you want to use LiveCode fields in more 'graphical' situations - e.g. as
> the labels on custom buttons.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> P.S. It is perfectly possible that fettling with the metrics detailed in
> the article above would mean you could achieve identical vertical layout
> on macOS and Windows but it isn't something I have actually tried.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create app
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 19:25:32 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:25:32 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <E9FF5908-1C0A-462E-A66E-309351FE9630@netrin.com>
References: <mailman.10.1598395722.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <E9FF5908-1C0A-462E-A66E-309351FE9630@netrin.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSQ7VNpM4QZ+NjHYW4pkua-CwqWpYW8PVhzgHZzr4vidmA@mail.gmail.com>

Helpful. Gee, thanks!!
Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *


On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:17, Jim Lambert via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Sean wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > You might want to give me more time for this kind of testing
> Granted! I give you all the time in the world.
>
> >  and have a word with my clients to ensure this.
> Ah sorry, can't help there, for that would be your job when responding to
> requests for proposals.
>
> Jim Lambert
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 19:36:14 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:36:14 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>

Se my notes on the other thread about OTF fonts. THEY ARE DESIGNED to be
the SAME in ANY platform (except browsers coz they don't accept them. They
have their own variance.

Stop making excuses. Accept I am right, for FS. I didn't create the fault.
I'm not even the first to report it. It's there! It's real. Stop arguing
and help me get LC to pull their fingers out their posteriors and fix these
damned mistakes that have been around for years!! Why does no one pull
behind me, but just point the finger at me assuming I'm in the wrong for
highlighting a bug that is clearly already accepted? It astounds me, it
really does! You tell me off for getting angry about it but it is purely
because everyone has made out the OTF fonts aren't designed to appear the
same. They should. They don't. They should. But they don't! It needs
fixing. Simple as that. Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
of bullying. What did you all expect!

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *


On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I?ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary (I
> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN font
> on both platforms!
>
> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something like a
> Header or a Label, it wouldn?t be either the font chosen OR bold in
> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
>
> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What can
> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying to
> do? It?s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at the
> application level.
>
> THAT BEING SAID?
> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to install
> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
> use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sean-
> >
> > My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I?ve built web
> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
> you?re right, the HTML5 port isn?t ready for primetime).
> >
> > Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only
> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF
> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won?t look the same: and
> there?s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an
> image, but you still can?t make-up for the color gamut differences). The
> WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar
> were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code
> and won?t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they did
> "work".
> >
> > Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app
> development. Whether it?s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren?t cheap,
> and the cheap ones aren?t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS
> reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple
> formats). The closest I?ve come has been to run some scripts when
> populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the
> design. Text doesn?t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does.
> Text doesn?t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does. It?s
> a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department seems
> to have another ?small change? along the way.
> >
> > Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting
> background you understand that a projects aren?t ?done? until the deadline:
> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time
> (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant
> emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.
> >
> > While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only
> imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in
> BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you
> are referring to. I say ?imagine? because I don?t know, and never had to
> learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the
> various programming environments I?ve previously developed for. My copy of
> Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell, and
> it wasn?t a fireable offense for the development team.
> >
> > ?Andrew Bell
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Aug 25 19:46:38 2020
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:46:38 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99CFD56B-1701-4C5D-81B3-4CFFD9E1E936@pacifier.com>

Well it sounds like some of them expected you to get off the ship,
and to do that by walking the plank.

JB

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 4:37 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
> of bullying. What did you all expect!
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> 
> 
>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I?ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary (I
>> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
>> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN font
>> on both platforms!
>> 
>> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something like a
>> Header or a Label, it wouldn?t be either the font chosen OR bold in
>> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
>> 
>> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What can
>> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying to
>> do? It?s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at the
>> application level.
>> 
>> THAT BEING SAID?
>> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
>> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to install
>> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
>> use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sean-
>>> 
>>> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I?ve built web
>> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
>> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
>> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
>> you?re right, the HTML5 port isn?t ready for primetime).
>>> 
>>> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
>> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only
>> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
>> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
>> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF
>> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won?t look the same: and
>> there?s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an
>> image, but you still can?t make-up for the color gamut differences). The
>> WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar
>> were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code
>> and won?t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they did
>> "work".
>>> 
>>> Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app
>> development. Whether it?s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren?t cheap,
>> and the cheap ones aren?t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS
>> reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple
>> formats). The closest I?ve come has been to run some scripts when
>> populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the
>> design. Text doesn?t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does.
>> Text doesn?t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does. It?s
>> a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department seems
>> to have another ?small change? along the way.
>>> 
>>> Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting
>> background you understand that a projects aren?t ?done? until the deadline:
>> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time
>> (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant
>> emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.
>>> 
>>> While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only
>> imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in
>> BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you
>> are referring to. I say ?imagine? because I don?t know, and never had to
>> learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the
>> various programming environments I?ve previously developed for. My copy of
>> Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell, and
>> it wasn?t a fireable offense for the development team.
>>> 
>>> ?Andrew Bell
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Tue Aug 25 19:54:48 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:54:48 -0400
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout
In-Reply-To: <388df6e9-4fc6-9705-54bc-2581f4e7a2e2@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <mailman.4.1598361124.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <64F2D869-6801-4451-8178-9B9A495C152B@netrin.com>
 <CABRqQSRRWsg5C2hyyZgoA22uTfXpyDtJDeJi9En644ZP3a6KqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d0aea222-713e-6493-582d-9846c29d4d1b@gmail.com>
 <388df6e9-4fc6-9705-54bc-2581f4e7a2e2@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <003801d67b3b$20fd81e0$62f885a0$@net>

+ 10 also. Thanks Mark. Enlightening. I've read several articles on this but
this one was easy on the brain. Bookmarked!

I talked to my partner in crime and she reminded me that we were the third
one to get the afore mentioned Word file and the problem manifested itself
by looking OK on the screen but the PDF was wrong because of the font naming
was screwed up by the second person to get the file by not having the bold
version of the font on their system. The only way we found to fix it was to
re-style the bold of that font for the entire document. It was hundreds of
8.5/11 pages. That's why we just had to laugh when the bad version of the
document circled back around to us 5 years later. 
Fonts can be a real pain (am I understating it?)

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 6:43 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: Re: Cross Platform Font Layout

Kudos also to Mark Waddingham who calmly delivered supportive info in an
even response, even after reading for days how he and the team are liars,
incompetents, and cheats.

On 8/25/20 2:59 PM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
> This sort of stuff will NOT help you at all; it appears intemperate 
> and is aimed (if it has to be aimed at all) at the wrong people.
> 
> You have just managed to lose my sympathy completely, for what it's worth.
> 
> "redundant and without merit": judgemental, arrogant, and so on: 
> obviously you need to go away and either calm down or boil your head.
> 
> On 25.08.20 20:48, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>> Your argument also is redundant and without merit. This is not my 
>> first rodeo. I AM BRINGING TO LIGHT AND to THE SURFACE THE OBVIOUS 
>> FLAWS IN OUR MIDST!!



-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Tue Aug 25 19:58:57 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 01:58:57 +0200
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C5CEB0A-768A-49B9-923C-6B2022B7979D@m-r-d.de>

Sean,

As much i understand the pressure you feel to finalize your project, the less i  understand why every post of you sounds rude.
What do you want to accomplish with such posts and what do you want to hear from us? 
You can't expect that everyone on this list shares your opinion. 
I do not think that your behavior is very helpful. But anyway that's your decision.

I really wish you can complete the project successfully.

Take care of yourself.

Matthias



> Am 26.08.2020 um 01:36 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Se my notes on the other thread about OTF fonts. THEY ARE DESIGNED to be
> the SAME in ANY platform (except browsers coz they don't accept them. They
> have their own variance.
> 
> Stop making excuses. Accept I am right, for FS. I didn't create the fault.
> I'm not even the first to report it. It's there! It's real. Stop arguing
> and help me get LC to pull their fingers out their posteriors and fix these
> damned mistakes that have been around for years!! Why does no one pull
> behind me, but just point the finger at me assuming I'm in the wrong for
> highlighting a bug that is clearly already accepted? It astounds me, it
> really does! You tell me off for getting angry about it but it is purely
> because everyone has made out the OTF fonts aren't designed to appear the
> same. They should. They don't. They should. But they don't! It needs
> fixing. Simple as that. Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
> of bullying. What did you all expect!
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> 
> 
> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I?ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary (I
>> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
>> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN font
>> on both platforms!
>> 
>> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something like a
>> Header or a Label, it wouldn?t be either the font chosen OR bold in
>> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
>> 
>> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What can
>> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying to
>> do? It?s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at the
>> application level.
>> 
>> THAT BEING SAID?
>> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
>> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to install
>> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
>> use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sean-
>>> 
>>> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I?ve built web
>> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
>> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
>> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
>> you?re right, the HTML5 port isn?t ready for primetime).
>>> 
>>> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
>> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who only
>> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
>> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
>> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and WOFF
>> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won?t look the same: and
>> there?s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making everything an
>> image, but you still can?t make-up for the color gamut differences). The
>> WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually similar
>> were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code
>> and won?t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they did
>> "work".
>>> 
>>> Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app
>> development. Whether it?s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren?t cheap,
>> and the cheap ones aren?t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS
>> reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple
>> formats). The closest I?ve come has been to run some scripts when
>> populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in the
>> design. Text doesn?t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does.
>> Text doesn?t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does. It?s
>> a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department seems
>> to have another ?small change? along the way.
>>> 
>>> Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting
>> background you understand that a projects aren?t ?done? until the deadline:
>> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more time
>> (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable eggplant
>> emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.
>>> 
>>> While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only
>> imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in
>> BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you
>> are referring to. I say ?imagine? because I don?t know, and never had to
>> learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the
>> various programming environments I?ve previously developed for. My copy of
>> Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell, and
>> it wasn?t a fireable offense for the development team.
>>> 
>>> ?Andrew Bell
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 20:02:20 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 01:02:20 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <99CFD56B-1701-4C5D-81B3-4CFFD9E1E936@pacifier.com>
References: <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <99CFD56B-1701-4C5D-81B3-4CFFD9E1E936@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSRfjrmrNrWoL+UyCYY+9ByKifheBfi7-LkVH2MTTf2WFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:46, JB via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Well it sounds like some of them expected you to get off the ship,
> and to do that by walking the plank.


Nice. Community
Sean Cole
*Pi Digital*


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 20:17:11 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 01:17:11 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <4C5CEB0A-768A-49B9-923C-6B2022B7979D@m-r-d.de>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4C5CEB0A-768A-49B9-923C-6B2022B7979D@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSTAb_1XdK6GZh5iNg=jcNy5Mf4vcQnwOPf3PRedmpuudQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Matthias,

Your comments are appreciated.

The projects deadline was Monday morning, which was completed. It doesn't
take away from the fact that next time I will face it all again because LC
won't fix the fundamentals. They don't live up to their promises. They LIE
(Jacque won't accept it, but they make many claims on their site and to me
in person that simply are proven false). I'm just tired of people making me
out to be irrelevant and any claim I make to be false. They make claims of
their own which in turn are unfounded in any reality. [sigh] Of course I
will get upset at that kind of treatment from the same old abusers. They're
the same ones who drove me to topping myself last time. Nice, community
spirit of 'assume he's wrong, attack and make out LC can do no wrong' then
push him out and hope he rots!

Thanks a bunch

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *

*PS - *(see, I am 'nice' to those who are deserving of respect. If you're
not getting the respect, perhaps you need to consider the relevance and
validity of what you have said).

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:58, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Sean,
>
> As much i understand the pressure you feel to finalize your project, the
> less i  understand why every post of you sounds rude.
> What do you want to accomplish with such posts and what do you want to
> hear from us?
> You can't expect that everyone on this list shares your opinion.
> I do not think that your behavior is very helpful. But anyway that's your
> decision.
>
> I really wish you can complete the project successfully.
>
> Take care of yourself.
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
> > Am 26.08.2020 um 01:36 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > Se my notes on the other thread about OTF fonts. THEY ARE DESIGNED to be
> > the SAME in ANY platform (except browsers coz they don't accept them.
> They
> > have their own variance.
> >
> > Stop making excuses. Accept I am right, for FS. I didn't create the
> fault.
> > I'm not even the first to report it. It's there! It's real. Stop arguing
> > and help me get LC to pull their fingers out their posteriors and fix
> these
> > damned mistakes that have been around for years!! Why does no one pull
> > behind me, but just point the finger at me assuming I'm in the wrong for
> > highlighting a bug that is clearly already accepted? It astounds me, it
> > really does! You tell me off for getting angry about it but it is purely
> > because everyone has made out the OTF fonts aren't designed to appear the
> > same. They should. They don't. They should. But they don't! It needs
> > fixing. Simple as that. Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
> > of bullying. What did you all expect!
> >
> > Sean Cole
> > *Pi Digital *
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I?ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary
> (I
> >> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
> >> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN
> font
> >> on both platforms!
> >>
> >> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something
> like a
> >> Header or a Label, it wouldn?t be either the font chosen OR bold in
> >> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
> >>
> >> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What
> can
> >> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying
> to
> >> do? It?s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at
> the
> >> application level.
> >>
> >> THAT BEING SAID?
> >> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
> >> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to
> install
> >> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
> >>
> >> Bob S
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
> >> use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Sean-
> >>>
> >>> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I?ve built web
> >> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
> >> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
> >> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
> >> you?re right, the HTML5 port isn?t ready for primetime).
> >>>
> >>> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
> >> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who
> only
> >> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
> >> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
> >> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and
> WOFF
> >> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won?t look the same: and
> >> there?s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making
> everything an
> >> image, but you still can?t make-up for the color gamut differences). The
> >> WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually
> similar
> >> were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code
> >> and won?t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they
> did
> >> "work".
> >>>
> >>> Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app
> >> development. Whether it?s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren?t
> cheap,
> >> and the cheap ones aren?t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS
> >> reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple
> >> formats). The closest I?ve come has been to run some scripts when
> >> populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in
> the
> >> design. Text doesn?t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does.
> >> Text doesn?t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does.
> It?s
> >> a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department
> seems
> >> to have another ?small change? along the way.
> >>>
> >>> Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting
> >> background you understand that a projects aren?t ?done? until the
> deadline:
> >> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more
> time
> >> (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable
> eggplant
> >> emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.
> >>>
> >>> While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only
> >> imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in
> >> BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you
> >> are referring to. I say ?imagine? because I don?t know, and never had to
> >> learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the
> >> various programming environments I?ve previously developed for. My copy
> of
> >> Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell,
> and
> >> it wasn?t a fireable offense for the development team.
> >>>
> >>> ?Andrew Bell
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From martyknappster at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 20:31:14 2020
From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:31:14 -0700
Subject: Big Sur issues
In-Reply-To: <76194D90-381B-431D-BB6D-7FB28A7CADA1@iotecdigital.com>
References: <2DF06255-1DF8-45BB-BC72-533357B85A82@gmail.com>
 <76194D90-381B-431D-BB6D-7FB28A7CADA1@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <EE1BC3B7-34AC-4B80-A2E5-D67ECD29F7E2@gmail.com>

Thanks Bob, I may have to take you up on that. Hopefully it will get fixed. I did tinker with it a bit and found that if I set the backgroundColor of the button to something dark the text shows up, so the issue is the change in appearance to the active tab being white - so the default white text  is there, just not visible against a white background.

Marty

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> FYI I recently built my own tab control that looks almost exactly like the one the Mac displays, but it has two advantages: 
> 
> 1. It looks good on both Windows AND Mac. 
> 2. It has support for Drag and Drop. 
> 
> You edit the tabs by right-clicking in the ?pane? of the group object, then selecting Tabs. You use an answer dialog to enter a comma separated list of tabs. When these are built there are invisible buttons created over the top of the Segmented Control Widget tabs. (The only reason I did this is so I could drag over a button and it would hilite, and also because I could create a behavior that is applied to ALL the buttons, so I only have one place to go to edit the code for them.) 
> 
> Sizing works for every side but the top. I haven?t spent any time trying to figure that one out. Also, I?ve had problems adding more than one tab at a time, but I think I know what is wrong there. 
> 
> Let me know and I will try to kludge together a sample stack. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:27 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I just installed the latest beta of the Big Sur OS on my MacBook Pro and ran an LC app built in 9.6.1 (that works fine on Catalina) and right off it looks like 2 things are broken:
>> 
>> 1) Tabbed buttons - the active tab does not show the text, it?s just blank white. Tried both Light and Dark modes with no difference
>> 2) WindowShape - whatever graphic you?ve selected for the shape is ignored
>> 
>> Anybody else finding these or other issues?
>> 
>> Marty
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Aug 25 20:40:19 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:40:19 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTt_cR-Mhom0oLD7Ay3VuoPR1rzKL32pGKLv9Kczx7Q=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTt_cR-Mhom0oLD7Ay3VuoPR1rzKL32pGKLv9Kczx7Q=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe63bc2c-d2d6-0cdb-41c2-3e627ce0c2d8@fourthworld.com>

Sean Cole wrote:

 > Spelling it out to you, here are all of the related bug reports.
 > Confirmed bug reports. Confirmed they are bugs. Bugs that Can and
 > Should be fixed. It won't take 10s of 1000s of $ as whatshisface
 > Gaskin made it seem.

Embedding a replacement font rendering subsystem to bypass the 
OS-supplied one would be a feature request, not a bug report. :)

And I missed that feature request among the grab-bag collection of 
Bugzilla URLs you included. Has anyone ever actually requested that?


As for cross-platform rendering consistency, you seem to be confusing a 
file format specification with an implementation of a system which uses 
that format.

Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a 
single-file, cross-platform font definition.

But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires 
all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they 
don't.

This is true with all sorts of formats. If you've ever written a web 
page you've no doubt enjoyed discovering the breadth of ways browser 
implementers can interpret simple HTML.

I noticed you ignored the screen shot I prepared for you, which 
illustrates platform disparities with both font and HTML rendering. You 
might want to take a look at that.  It's from BBC, an org you say 
doesn't tolerate cross-platform rendering disparities, but apparently, 
like the rest of us, they do.


 > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18748 (Related and listed
 > by none other than Whatshisface Gaskin himself!)

Is the issue described in that report what triggered this thread?

If it turns out to be relevant here, did you try Mark Waddingham's 
suggestion in Comment #1 from the report?

That solved it for me. In fact given the vertical metric alterations I 
chose to impose with the command listed in the recipe, the rendering can 
only come up short on top or on bottom, unless I take Waddingham's 
observation into account. It isn't logically possible to do otherwise 
with a fixed line height.

Also, the behavior described in that report is consistent across 
platforms, so it would seem the opposite of the cross-platform concerns 
that prompted this thread.

If that turns out to be the issue that prompted this thread that would 
be excellent, as a single checkbox click will take care of it.



PS: You don't have to use my name, but while you may be comfortable 
calling me "Whatshisface Gaskin" I doubt you'd welcome anyone here 
calling you "Dunning-Kruger Cole".  Let's not go there.

You might consider taking a little break, Sean. Come back when you're in 
a mood to engage with your colleagues as professionally as you do with 
your clients.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Aug 25 20:49:59 2020
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 01:49:59 +0100
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTt_cR-Mhom0oLD7Ay3VuoPR1rzKL32pGKLv9Kczx7Q=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <307c9875d12e3a6ad621dbe8cef34717@livecode.com>
 <CABRqQSTt_cR-Mhom0oLD7Ay3VuoPR1rzKL32pGKLv9Kczx7Q=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSSb_Y3Q9aXHO=EChWPhg3CU3T2V+GEbyTHJvvYXfJO52A@mail.gmail.com>

Here are some test screenshots to begin getting to the bottom (or baseline)
of the issue.

Mark claims that how they appear in WordPad and TextEdit are how it should
appear in LC. Lets test that. Here's WordPad in Windows (native). Arial
then the custom OTF font I was using both at 40pt

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ufmt8dt8c7wid6y/WordPad-Demo.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sn3b1r54kpbwqyf/TextEdit-Demo.png?dl=0

Then both together:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujdngwrruk89u4o/WP_TE-Demo.png?dl=0
Pretty identical. Even these two basic programmes can get it right.

Now LC:
PC: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2da8juirgqsa4zd/PC-Demo.png?dl=0

then load the stack up in MacOS LC and put the screenshot of the PC-Demo
underneath it and fade to 50%:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8vknqpptq71n4z2/Mac-Demo.png?dl=0

So what seems to be happening here is that the 'top' of the text box is not
referring to the same baseline height in relation to the text within it.

And I think THAT is the key here. However it is that LC calculates the
distance between the top of frame and the baseline is incorrect. In fact,
I'm not sure at all how they are working it out having done a bit of maths
derived from what I have found. Heres some other grabs that highlight the
differences, if you're interested. You can do your own maths (don't trust
mine):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ezo1pny2dhouqy8/Windows-FontLayout.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cskjaafbz32vbyj/Mac-FontLayout.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m3wf2mj1h7dk1fl/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.13.57.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/759z1rknopjts2a/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.15.23.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/65njh5k0vkbfivz/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.28.37.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6k60neuxeolvi46/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.34.42.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3eugkbb7q05ydbo/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.55.05.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fj0pi087ss3hpbw/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.57.35.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d8cxd2bp9vigbsv/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2022.59.12.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q0bnf5lkmtss1sq/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2023.02.29.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ynerw1m77p0p745/Screenshot%202020-08-25%20at%2023.08.38.png?dl=0

That should be enough along with your own testing to work it out.

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
www.pidigital.co.uk
+44(1634)402193
+44(7702)116447
'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
box!'
'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
but it is yourself!'

eMail Ts & Cs <http://pidigital.co.uk/emailTCs.rtf>   Pi Digital
Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609


On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:24, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> thanks for the response although only partially addressing the issue. That
> article (the first one to come up on a google search, so well done on your
> 'research') is aimed at web layout in a browser. NOTHING to do with desktop
> platform rendering which is a wholly different subject. And the writers
> 'hack' is not universal and only works based on that particular font. A
> very makeshift workaround (which is what we are incumbent on because of all
> the bugs (below) not yet ironed out - AFTER MANY YEARS!)
>
> Heres a far more relevant article by, yep, Adobe.
> https://helpx.adobe.com/uk/photoshop/using/fonts.html Look at the
> OpenType fonts section. The fonts I use are ALWAYS otf. Without fail. As
> Adobe says, "OpenType fonts use a single font file for both Windows and
> Macintosh computers, so you can move files from one platform to another
> without worrying about font substitution and other problems that cause text
> to reflow". They are platform agnostic. There are some caveats, for sure,
> but within the constraints of LC with its own engine, these won't apply. An
> OTF installed on ANY platform (other than a browser) will render
> identically with regards size, shape, height, line height, kerning and so
> on. There's no variance. It's pure mathematics. That's the point! (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenType)
>
> Spelling it out to you, here are all of the related bug reports. Confirmed
> bug reports. Confirmed they are bugs. Bugs that Can and Should be fixed. It
> won't take 10s of 1000s of $ as whatshisface Gaskin made it seem. I have
> and DO code workarounds for it all the sodding time. But CODE
> ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pfft, CODE ONCE. I AM SICK OF ALL THIS BS BEING
> THROWN BACK AT ME as if it's me that caused the issue. SERIOUSLY!!!!!! YOU
> all MAKE ME WILD with all your apologist brushing off and glossing over.
> MAKE IT FLIPPIN WORK!!!!
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2707
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2081
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3076
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12176
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13551 (sideways related)
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18748 (Related and listed by
> none other than Whatshisface Gaskin himself!)
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=19513
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21426
>
> Plus all of the 'Duplicate' references therein.
>
> If you are changing font or having to use different font between system I
> can FULLY understand why they would appear different. Even something like
> Arial in one system is bound to not be exactly the same font in both
> systems. I totally accept that fact and have to deal with it accordingly.
>
> BUT if the font is a custom, professionally made font or even a freebie
> crap font, installed on both systems they should appear the same size (the
> point size is not some arbitrary number) with the same fixed line height
> and formattedHeight (again, not arbitrary) with identical baselines
> calculated in exactly the same way. It's basic maths. It's an engine fault,
> not a system one. It requires a teeny bit of scientific testing with some
> custom fonts between platforms.
>
> --
>
> Based on the above reports and others like them, it's evident I'm not
> making this up, or being precious or getting worked up over NOTHING! We
> should get what we pay for and what LC advertise on their virtual box
> (landing page).   *I* didn't say it's CODE ONCE.    *THEY* put it like
> that! If it's not something LC can live up to they should change it. You
> can barely code once anything in lc that is cross-platform. Seriously,
> prove me wrong! But don't demonise me. I wasn't the one to make the claim.
> I'm pointing out how false it is and trying to get things working as they
> should. And certainly don't try to pull the wool over my eyes with
> incredibly badly thought out reasoning. I'm done with people fobbing me
> off.
>
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
>
> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 19:51, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2020-08-24 21:49, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>> > My client provided the font they needed in line with their tv show
>> > brand.
>> > They need the app to work both PC and Mac. It seems I have to manually
>> > go
>> > through each field, button and widget and make sure they are laid out
>> > properly. The left, right, center alignments don't always match and the
>> > vertical position certainly never matches.
>> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/v50aj7uv06bh4d9/MacText.png?dl=0
>> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/pry5teqp89xzbun/PCText.png?dl=0
>>
>> I suspect the main issue with vertical alignment here is to do with the
>> font.
>>
>> This very readable article contains the relevant information here as
>> well as how the problem can be resolved:
>>
>> <
>> https://www.williamrchase.com/post/font-height-differences-between-windows-and-mac/
>> >
>>
>> TL;DR; version - the custom font probably does not have the correct
>> settings/tables for use in programs which use the system text engines on
>> *both* Mac and Windows.
>>
>> FWIW, LiveCode fields try to match the way the running platform displays
>> text in OS editable fields.
>>
>> Specifically, text in a field on macOS will look almost the same as that
>> in TextEdit; and text in a field on Windows will look almost the same as
>> that in WordPad (DPI differences taken into account - LC assumes 72dpi,
>> Win assumes 96dpi).
>>
>> Unfortunately this means you do need to do some work (i.e. scripting) if
>> you want to use LiveCode fields in more 'graphical' situations - e.g. as
>> the labels on custom buttons.
>>
>> Warmest Regards,
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>> P.S. It is perfectly possible that fettling with the metrics detailed in
>> the article above would mean you could achieve identical vertical layout
>> on macOS and Windows but it isn't something I have actually tried.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
>> LiveCode: Everyone can create app
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 20:50:32 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:50:32 +0000
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <fe63bc2c-d2d6-0cdb-41c2-3e627ce0c2d8@fourthworld.com>
References: <CABRqQSTt_cR-Mhom0oLD7Ay3VuoPR1rzKL32pGKLv9Kczx7Q=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <fe63bc2c-d2d6-0cdb-41c2-3e627ce0c2d8@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <17BEAD0F-4989-4909-8BBD-658C3D1C22D2@iotecdigital.com>

Reminds me of HTML. All platform consistency in display? until Microsoft and Netscape decided to do it ?better?. It begs the question, is it better to be consistent with everyone else?s standards, or better to be? well? better?

Bob S


On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a single-file, cross-platform font definition.

But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they don't.


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Aug 25 20:52:47 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:52:47 +0000
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTAb_1XdK6GZh5iNg=jcNy5Mf4vcQnwOPf3PRedmpuudQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4C5CEB0A-768A-49B9-923C-6B2022B7979D@m-r-d.de>
 <CABRqQSTAb_1XdK6GZh5iNg=jcNy5Mf4vcQnwOPf3PRedmpuudQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <587D9DB0-D265-45D4-A235-B0482D626543@iotecdigital.com>

Rather than puke all over my keyboard, I am now forced to make a rule sending all emails with this address to the trash. I hate doing this, I really thought things would just calm down. I don?t think that will happen now. 

Bob S


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:17 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Matthias,
> 
> Your comments are appreciated.
> 
> The projects deadline was Monday morning, which was completed. It doesn't
> take away from the fact that next time I will face it all again because LC
> won't fix the fundamentals. They don't live up to their promises. They LIE
> (Jacque won't accept it, but they make many claims on their site and to me
> in person that simply are proven false). I'm just tired of people making me
> out to be irrelevant and any claim I make to be false. They make claims of
> their own which in turn are unfounded in any reality. [sigh] Of course I
> will get upset at that kind of treatment from the same old abusers. They're
> the same ones who drove me to topping myself last time. Nice, community
> spirit of 'assume he's wrong, attack and make out LC can do no wrong' then
> push him out and hope he rots!
> 
> Thanks a bunch
> 
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital *
> 
> *PS - *(see, I am 'nice' to those who are deserving of respect. If you're
> not getting the respect, perhaps you need to consider the relevance and
> validity of what you have said).
> 
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 00:58, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Sean,
>> 
>> As much i understand the pressure you feel to finalize your project, the
>> less i  understand why every post of you sounds rude.
>> What do you want to accomplish with such posts and what do you want to
>> hear from us?
>> You can't expect that everyone on this list shares your opinion.
>> I do not think that your behavior is very helpful. But anyway that's your
>> decision.
>> 
>> I really wish you can complete the project successfully.
>> 
>> Take care of yourself.
>> 
>> Matthias
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 26.08.2020 um 01:36 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>> 
>>> Se my notes on the other thread about OTF fonts. THEY ARE DESIGNED to be
>>> the SAME in ANY platform (except browsers coz they don't accept them.
>> They
>>> have their own variance.
>>> 
>>> Stop making excuses. Accept I am right, for FS. I didn't create the
>> fault.
>>> I'm not even the first to report it. It's there! It's real. Stop arguing
>>> and help me get LC to pull their fingers out their posteriors and fix
>> these
>>> damned mistakes that have been around for years!! Why does no one pull
>>> behind me, but just point the finger at me assuming I'm in the wrong for
>>> highlighting a bug that is clearly already accepted? It astounds me, it
>>> really does! You tell me off for getting angry about it but it is purely
>>> because everyone has made out the OTF fonts aren't designed to appear the
>>> same. They should. They don't. They should. But they don't! It needs
>>> fixing. Simple as that. Of course I'm going to respond badly to this kind
>>> of bullying. What did you all expect!
>>> 
>>> Sean Cole
>>> *Pi Digital *
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I?ll toss this in. I was using a Mac font that had a Windows corollary
>> (I
>>>> thought) but when I dug deeper I found that the Mac had individual type
>>>> faces whereas the Windows equivalent did not. This font was a BUILT-IN
>> font
>>>> on both platforms!
>>>> 
>>>> The result is if I chose the bold version of the font for something
>> like a
>>>> Header or a Label, it wouldn?t be either the font chosen OR bold in
>>>> Windows, although it looks absolutely fine on the Mac.
>>>> 
>>>> The Livecode devs CANNOT take liberties with this sort of thing! What
>> can
>>>> they do?? Write code that guesses what it was the developer was trying
>> to
>>>> do? It?s absurd to think this is even a problem that CAN be solved at
>> the
>>>> application level.
>>>> 
>>>> THAT BEING SAID?
>>>> What I DID do successfully was find an app that was able to CONVERT the
>>>> Mac font type faces into WINDOWS font files, and then I was able to
>> install
>>>> them in Windows and I got pretty much what I expected to get.
>>>> 
>>>> Bob S
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
>>>> use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sean-
>>>>> 
>>>>> My degree is in TV/stage production and digital design. I?ve built web
>>>> sites (HTML, WordPress, LiveCode), produced/directed broadcast and
>>>> streaming programs, and delivered custom software on Mac/PC/Web (using
>>>> Director and Flash), and now Mac/PC/iOS/Android using LiveCode (because
>>>> you?re right, the HTML5 port isn?t ready for primetime).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anyone who thinks pixel perfection across mediums is possible has never
>>>> worked on a web platform; this usually ends up being UI designers who
>> only
>>>> work in theoreticals. That InDesign file they mocked up might look great
>>>> saved as a PDF or printed on a specific coated paper using Pantone inks,
>>>> but those CMYK colors and Post Script fonts are rendered using RGB and
>> WOFF
>>>> in a web browser or desktop computer so they won?t look the same: and
>>>> there?s not a damn thing you can do about it (short of making
>> everything an
>>>> image, but you still can?t make-up for the color gamut differences). The
>>>> WYSWIG hacks that sufficed in the 90s/00s to make things visually
>> similar
>>>> were always shoddy at-best creating hundreds of additional lines of code
>>>> and won?t pass muster with current accessibility standards even if they
>> did
>>>> "work".
>>>>> 
>>>>> Fonts have ALWAYS been one of the most difficult parts of app
>>>> development. Whether it?s getting legal fonts (the good ones aren?t
>> cheap,
>>>> and the cheap ones aren?t good), or cross-platform fonts (not every OS
>>>> reads the same format, and not every font is available in multiple
>>>> formats). The closest I?ve come has been to run some scripts when
>>>> populating text fields to make sure they fit the dimensions allotted in
>> the
>>>> design. Text doesn?t fit in box? Reduce the fontSize by 1 until it does.
>>>> Text doesn?t fill the space? Increase the fontSize by 1 until it does.
>> It?s
>>>> a PITA, so I usually add this in at the end since the art department
>> seems
>>>> to have another ?small change? along the way.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Programming isn't a science as much as an art. With your broadcasting
>>>> background you understand that a projects aren?t ?done? until the
>> deadline:
>>>> there is ALWAYS something else you would have tweaked if you had more
>> time
>>>> (2 weeks?!?). But I get it: producers are generally unreasonable
>> eggplant
>>>> emojis that are notoriously difficult to please.
>>>>> 
>>>>> While LiveCode DOES require some if platform() conditionals, I can only
>>>> imagine coding this in Swift and Java (even for a unicorn proficient in
>>>> BOTH) would still take much longer and NOT give the pixel perfection you
>>>> are referring to. I say ?imagine? because I don?t know, and never had to
>>>> learn, those languages since I could easily pick-up LiveCode from the
>>>> various programming environments I?ve previously developed for. My copy
>> of
>>>> Microsoft Windows looks different on my iMac than it does on my Dell,
>> and
>>>> it wasn?t a fireable offense for the development team.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ?Andrew Bell
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From colinholgate at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 21:04:06 2020
From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:04:06 -0600
Subject: Big Sur issues
In-Reply-To: <EE1BC3B7-34AC-4B80-A2E5-D67ECD29F7E2@gmail.com>
References: <2DF06255-1DF8-45BB-BC72-533357B85A82@gmail.com>
 <76194D90-381B-431D-BB6D-7FB28A7CADA1@iotecdigital.com>
 <EE1BC3B7-34AC-4B80-A2E5-D67ECD29F7E2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CD8D3B49-4E0E-4A83-B349-1638E30A22B7@gmail.com>

In related news, I have an ARM64 Mac mini, and LC seems to be running ok.

With the Tab Panel issue, did you notice that as you dragged it into place you could see the first tab?s text? That suggests that the highlighter for the tab has transparency issues, not that text is missing.

WindowShape does work, but there is a card size backdrop. Also, while LiveCard is open all of your desktop is obscured by a backdrop as well.


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Bob, I may have to take you up on that. Hopefully it will get fixed. I did tinker with it a bit and found that if I set the backgroundColor of the button to something dark the text shows up, so the issue is the change in appearance to the active tab being white - so the default white text  is there, just not visible against a white background.
> 
> Marty
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> FYI I recently built my own tab control that looks almost exactly like the one the Mac displays, but it has two advantages: 
>> 
>> 1. It looks good on both Windows AND Mac. 
>> 2. It has support for Drag and Drop. 
>> 
>> You edit the tabs by right-clicking in the ?pane? of the group object, then selecting Tabs. You use an answer dialog to enter a comma separated list of tabs. When these are built there are invisible buttons created over the top of the Segmented Control Widget tabs. (The only reason I did this is so I could drag over a button and it would hilite, and also because I could create a behavior that is applied to ALL the buttons, so I only have one place to go to edit the code for them.) 
>> 
>> Sizing works for every side but the top. I haven?t spent any time trying to figure that one out. Also, I?ve had problems adding more than one tab at a time, but I think I know what is wrong there. 
>> 
>> Let me know and I will try to kludge together a sample stack. 
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 3:27 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I just installed the latest beta of the Big Sur OS on my MacBook Pro and ran an LC app built in 9.6.1 (that works fine on Catalina) and right off it looks like 2 things are broken:
>>> 
>>> 1) Tabbed buttons - the active tab does not show the text, it?s just blank white. Tried both Light and Dark modes with no difference
>>> 2) WindowShape - whatever graphic you?ve selected for the shape is ignored
>>> 
>>> Anybody else finding these or other issues?
>>> 
>>> Marty
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From martyknappster at gmail.com  Tue Aug 25 22:54:53 2020
From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:54:53 -0700
Subject: Big Sur issues
In-Reply-To: <CD8D3B49-4E0E-4A83-B349-1638E30A22B7@gmail.com>
References: <2DF06255-1DF8-45BB-BC72-533357B85A82@gmail.com>
 <76194D90-381B-431D-BB6D-7FB28A7CADA1@iotecdigital.com>
 <EE1BC3B7-34AC-4B80-A2E5-D67ECD29F7E2@gmail.com>
 <CD8D3B49-4E0E-4A83-B349-1638E30A22B7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DA894EEC-B5EA-4F8C-8E40-F516F56F89C2@gmail.com>

I haven?t tried the LC development environment on Big Sur yet, just ran an already-built app. As far as the tabbed button, the issue is that the highlighted tab on Mac has a white background on Big Sur. So with the default white text you can?t see it, though the text is there.

Marty

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> In related news, I have an ARM64 Mac mini, and LC seems to be running ok.
> 
> With the Tab Panel issue, did you notice that as you dragged it into place you could see the first tab?s text? That suggests that the highlighter for the tab has transparency issues, not that text is missing.
> 
> WindowShape does work, but there is a card size backdrop. Also, while LiveCard is open all of your desktop is obscured by a backdrop as well.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Bob, I may have to take you up on that. Hopefully it will get fixed. I did tinker with it a bit and found that if I set the backgroundColor of the button to something dark the text shows up, so the issue is the change in appearance to the active tab being white - so the default white text  is there, just not visible against a white background.
>> 
>> Marty




From paul at livecode.org  Tue Aug 25 23:03:16 2020
From: paul at livecode.org (Paul Hibbert)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:03:16 -0700
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <F607534A-4ED8-4110-B7FE-EEA8E548B476@gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F607534A-4ED8-4110-B7FE-EEA8E548B476@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <64CE67E1-B8B5-4837-ADAC-61CC9385B500@livecode.org>

Bill, try this in the behaviour button script:

on mouseUp
  put the long name of this me into theName  ?theName will contain the long name of the behaviour button.
end mouseUp

put this me into theName - would put the value contained in the text property of the behaviour button into theName. In standard, default and rectangle buttons we don?t normally use the text property, but there?s nothing stopping you from using it if you wish, you just need to populate it first. :)

Paul

> On 25Aug, 2020, at 15:48, William Prothero via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> on mouseUp
>   put  this me into theName  ?theName is blank.
> end mouseUP






From stephen at barncard.com  Tue Aug 25 23:37:17 2020
From: stephen at barncard.com (Stephen Barncard)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:37:17 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <17BEAD0F-4989-4909-8BBD-658C3D1C22D2@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CABRqQSTt_cR-Mhom0oLD7Ay3VuoPR1rzKL32pGKLv9Kczx7Q=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <fe63bc2c-d2d6-0cdb-41c2-3e627ce0c2d8@fourthworld.com>
 <17BEAD0F-4989-4909-8BBD-658C3D1C22D2@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CAFmQfH+Y-=GbK0isps_f3OVi3DEkwutjncf9r10He+XO-31unQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sean Cole

Still no apologies.
Hey, you are starting to disrespect my friends and I?m not digging it. They
have done nothing other than bend over backwards to try to help and your
bad attitude and rudeness is crossing the line.

Remember the main rule here, no politics, religion or cheese and you,
buddy, have gone full limburger.

Chill, dude.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 17:51 Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Reminds me of HTML. All platform consistency in display? until Microsoft
> and Netscape decided to do it ?better?. It begs the question, is it better
> to be consistent with everyone else?s standards, or better to be? well?
> better?
>
>
>
> Bob S
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a
> single-file, cross-platform font definition.
>
>
>
> But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires
> all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they
> don't.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> use-livecode mailing list
>
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
>
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> --
--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org


From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Aug 25 23:53:26 2020
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:53:26 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CAFmQfH+Y-=GbK0isps_f3OVi3DEkwutjncf9r10He+XO-31unQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFmQfH+Y-=GbK0isps_f3OVi3DEkwutjncf9r10He+XO-31unQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D45888FC-D701-44CA-A79F-32050B96E699@pacifier.com>

Chill, dude?
ok, one of the cool things about LiveCode is instead of writing
your program in Swift, Jave, or C, etc. is that you can easily
include any of these languages in a LiveCode app.  I don?t
know of another programming tool that allows you to do that
and do it on various os?s.  Xcode allows you to mix objective-c
with Swift by bridging it but LiveCode does it better.

We can only work with what we have available, things are
changing fast and sometimes it is difficult to keep up no
matter how hard you work on it.

JB


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:39 PM, Stephen Barncard via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Sean Cole
> 
> Still no apologies.
> Hey, you are starting to disrespect my friends and I?m not digging it. They
> have done nothing other than bend over backwards to try to help and your
> bad attitude and rudeness is crossing the line.
> 
> Remember the main rule here, no politics, religion or cheese and you,
> buddy, have gone full limburger.
> 
> Chill, dude.
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 17:51 Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Reminds me of HTML. All platform consistency in display? until Microsoft
>> and Netscape decided to do it ?better?. It begs the question, is it better
>> to be consistent with everyone else?s standards, or better to be? well?
>> better?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a
>> single-file, cross-platform font definition.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires
>> all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they
>> don't.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> 
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> 
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> 
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> --
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From tfabacher at gmail.com  Wed Aug 26 00:29:00 2020
From: tfabacher at gmail.com (Todd Fabacher)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 00:29:00 -0400
Subject: MySQL Client on
Message-ID: <CACjPeOT8zKs-b83gczR5ALuoWs9DjHUXSkf5PjEjvnXAQCx2ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am using revOpenDatabase with the "MySQL" parameter on LiveCode server.

I am getting an error:

*Client does not support authentication protocol requested by server;
consider upgrading MySQL client*

What can I do?? I am in a real hole as the version of mySQL was updated to
the latest version 8.0 and now LiveCode server is NOT working???


Please advise,

Todd Fabacher

PS I never got LC server to open a Postgres Database. I need some help here.


From bogdanoff at me.com  Wed Aug 26 00:31:55 2020
From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 21:31:55 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <D45888FC-D701-44CA-A79F-32050B96E699@pacifier.com>
References: <CAFmQfH+Y-=GbK0isps_f3OVi3DEkwutjncf9r10He+XO-31unQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <D45888FC-D701-44CA-A79F-32050B96E699@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <6A162A94-5729-4BEF-8532-733A8294FF6E@me.com>

I?ll chime in on this issue ? for the benefit of others who may be wondering what is going on in this list.

All existing bugs in LiveCode going back to the distant past could possibly be fixed, and display discrepancies resolved, if LiveCode the company dramatically increased its revenue from getting a gazzilion more users, tuppling license fees, and maybe dramatically cutting expenses by firing all its employees to hire programmers in India. Until that happens, we use LiveCode?s flexibility to come up with solutions to problems. This is done all the time.

And LC advertises one code base. Technically this is true. ?If the platform is Mac then do this, if it is Windows then do that.? That works for me as one code base for Mac and Windows without creating different code versions.

I have a text-heavy application where font appearance is critical for both English and Chinese characters. Just now I added a routine to change in Windows Chinese:

1.  modify the HTMLtext of a field to replace instances of Songti SC Regular (Mac) with SimSun (Windows)
2. remove paragraph indentions of 8 space characters of Songti SC Regular text and instead set the firstIndent of the line to 34
3. set the spaceBelow of each line to match the Mac line spacing

all on the fly as the text loads from an array for each page turn. It?s fast and the Chinese translator in China says that it now looks beautiful, when before it looked like garbage.

I could curse the darkness, or just program a light bulb and move on.

Peter Bogdanoff


> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:53 PM, JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Chill, dude?
> ok, one of the cool things about LiveCode is instead of writing
> your program in Swift, Jave, or C, etc. is that you can easily
> include any of these languages in a LiveCode app.  I don?t
> know of another programming tool that allows you to do that
> and do it on various os?s.  Xcode allows you to mix objective-c
> with Swift by bridging it but LiveCode does it better.
> 
> We can only work with what we have available, things are
> changing fast and sometimes it is difficult to keep up no
> matter how hard you work on it.
> 
> JB
> 
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:39 PM, Stephen Barncard via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Sean Cole
>> 
>> Still no apologies.
>> Hey, you are starting to disrespect my friends and I?m not digging it. They
>> have done nothing other than bend over backwards to try to help and your
>> bad attitude and rudeness is crossing the line.
>> 
>> Remember the main rule here, no politics, religion or cheese and you,
>> buddy, have gone full limburger.
>> 
>> Chill, dude.
>> 
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 17:51 Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Reminds me of HTML. All platform consistency in display? until Microsoft
>>> and Netscape decided to do it ?better?. It begs the question, is it better
>>> to be consistent with everyone else?s standards, or better to be? well?
>>> better?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yes, we all remember the TrueType rollout, and the promise of a
>>> single-file, cross-platform font definition.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> But for that format to provide pixel-perfect matched rendering requires
>>> all renderer implementers to use the same code.  And as you know, they
>>> don't.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> 
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> 
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> 
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> --
>> --
>> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
>> mixstream.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Aug 26 03:07:48 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 02:07:48 -0500
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSTAb_1XdK6GZh5iNg=jcNy5Mf4vcQnwOPf3PRedmpuudQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4C5CEB0A-768A-49B9-923C-6B2022B7979D@m-r-d.de>
 <CABRqQSTAb_1XdK6GZh5iNg=jcNy5Mf4vcQnwOPf3PRedmpuudQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <174299815b8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

On August 25, 2020 7:47:00 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>

> The projects deadline was Monday morning, which was completed. It doesn't
> take away from the fact that next time I will face it all again because LC
> won't fix the fundamentals. They don't live up to their promises. They LIE
> (Jacque won't accept it, but they make many claims on their site and to me
> in person that simply are proven false). I'm just tired of people making me
> out to be irrelevant and any claim I make to be false.

I don't think you're either irrelevant or incorrect, I only object to the 
disrespect you've shown for people who work hard to bring us the tool we 
love and depend on. Any bugs you found are certainly based in fact, as 
you've shown. But there are much better ways to express discontent than 
what we've seen here. I also understand that you are battling some personal 
issues that may be out of your control, for which I am very sorry. But you 
can't expect warm replies to rants that are hurtful to the very people who 
attempt to help. Remember when we were worried about you and took up a fund 
to help? You got mad at us for that too.

As for "code once, run anywhere," I've recently completed two apps in four 
different flavors. I did not need to make any adjustments between the Mac 
and Windows apps, or between the iOS and Android apps with one exception 
for the native scroller on Android. And because the two products were 
siimilar in many ways (one inspired the other,) I could re-use about 70% of 
the desktop code to create the mobile apps.

Two mobile apps with identical code bases, except for native Android scroller:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1517450678
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.friendshippress.wordathand

Mac and Windows apps with identical code bases:
https://thinkingstrings.com/interactive-explorations/  (click product 
titles to see screenshots)
And the mobile versions:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.thinkingstrings.tsmobile
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1496668393

There is one more thing that differs between Android and iOS apps, and 
that's native appearance. Your font issue is similar to this. My mobile 
products each contain a handler I call "setupUI" which adjusts the 
appearance of all controls to conform to the platform's GUI. It sets the 
properties of all buttons, fields, text, etc., whatever is necessary to 
make the app look as expected for the OS. It's a long handler and I add to 
it as I do the initial layout. Then I run the handler manually from the 
message box before doing the build for each mobile platform. This is all 
cosmetic work, and I don't consider it part of the code base because it 
isn't what runs my apps. It just makes them look right. It's an automated 
way to switch between iOS and Android appearance, with the advantage of 
allowing me to flip between the two GUIs quickly during developent.

I generally don't need to do that for desktop apps, because LC handles most 
of the GUI issues for me. The fact that you've found an edge case is 
probably why you're so angry; we get spoiled because we take it for granted 
that LC is going to do it all for us. The link Mark gave us explains the 
reason (and though the author is working with HTML, the reason behind the 
problem does apply to LC as well. It isn't as irrelevant as you thought.)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com





From phil at liverpool.ac.uk  Wed Aug 26 05:06:35 2020
From: phil at liverpool.ac.uk (Jimmieson, Phil)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:06:35 +0000
Subject: Adding items to a group
Message-ID: <2A26E5D0-1F87-4173-95CF-E6E0001C41AC@liverpool.ac.uk>

Hi folks,
The app I?m currently working on features a poem presented as a series of fields (each containing one word of the poem) all grouped together, so that the poem can be scrolled vertically by the user. I need to be able to add extra words to the poem as the user drags them in from a set of words above the poem area. Currently I am doing this by ungrouping the poem, adding the new field to the list of group items and then re-grouping everything.  I know you can reorder group items, and move things in from outside, but the documentation seems to suggest that the number of items in the group will stay the same - if one item is moved in, another will be moved out. Is there another way to add an item to a group, or is ungrouping then regrouping but with an additional item in the list of items the only way?


One thing I?m considering is having a set of dummy hidden items already in the group and making one of those look like the word the user just dragged in - thus it?s already a member of the group and can be scrolled etc with the rest. Can anyone think of any better ways of doing it?

Thanks

--
Phil Jimmieson
University of Liverpool, Computer Science Department
Ashton Bldg, Ashton Street, Liverpool. L69 3BX
0151 795 4236


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Aug 26 05:16:18 2020
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 02:16:18 -0700
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <174299815b8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <174299815b8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <4a99f60f-6819-2e2c-2d2d-f3ef4344f59a@fourthworld.com>

J. Landman Gay wrote:
 > Any bugs you found are certainly based in fact, as you've shown.

That an anomaly is evident is known. The cause and possible remedies, 
however, remain open questions.

Though I briefly dabbled in sending hand-written Postscript to my laser 
printer back in the day (who didn't? Postscript was the future!), I've 
only briefly skimmed the file formats for Postscript and TrueType, and 
of course anyone lacking technical depth in this specialty will be at a 
disadvantage in diagnosing this.

So while I can't presume to know the inner details of what's in play 
here, it may be worth considering Mark Waddingham's input.  There's at 
least some indication he's familiar with how computers work, and he 
knows a thing or two about the internals of LiveCode. :)

Mark had suggested there may be elements within the font file itself 
which can be adjusted to improve rendering across different systems, 
specifically with regard to baseline differences on Windows:
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2020-August/261448.html

A quick search to see how others deal with similar issues yielded a 
corroborating suggestion, described here:

    "One possible solution could be to download the Cutive font (I see
    it has a SIL license) and then run it through the Font Squirrel
    font-face generator. In 'Expert' mode there is an option to 'Fix
    Vertical Metrics' which might be what you are looking for."

And:

    "I came across this problem with a custom font that had been created
    for a client's brand. I opened the TTF font in Font Forge. The way I
    created uniformity with rendering was to adjust the values in
    Element->Font Info->OS/2->Metrics.
    ....
    I have very limited knowledge about fonts but this did fix my
    problem.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11726442/font-rendering-line-height-issue-on-mac-pc-outside-of-element

I can't help but wonder if guidance from experienced people who've 
considered this issue in depth may be worth exploring...



If for some reason making the custom font file more complete is 
prohibitive, LC is flexible enough to compensate in just one line by 
adjusting the margins property where needed:

  if the platform is Win32 then set the margins of btn "Label" to 4,8,4,4

Set the adjustment of the second (top) item to whatever you need and 
you're back in business in just a few seconds.

Of course that's just a quick workaround to keep production work on 
schedule at near-zero cost to any project that may need it.

For the longer term, if adding the Win-specific metrics others have 
found success with doesn't resolve this problem, let's explore it further.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From mark at livecode.com  Wed Aug 26 05:27:55 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:27:55 +0100
Subject: Adding items to a group
In-Reply-To: <2A26E5D0-1F87-4173-95CF-E6E0001C41AC@liverpool.ac.uk>
References: <2A26E5D0-1F87-4173-95CF-E6E0001C41AC@liverpool.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <820ac15d5b9b24936c8d28c20243a189@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-26 10:06, Jimmieson, Phil via use-livecode wrote:
> One thing I?m considering is having a set of dummy hidden items
> already in the group and making one of those look like the word the
> user just dragged in - thus it?s already a member of the group and can
> be scrolled etc with the rest. Can anyone think of any better ways of
> doing it?

Take a look at the 'relayer' command in the dictionary. It allows you to 
move controls up and down the layer order and in and out of groups 
easily (without any need to ungroup/regroup).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Wed Aug 26 09:09:43 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:09:43 -0400
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycMJgVoxWPX8Tnm_Gtu+mOnjQFbfLi8yfB9e1s8uVbETMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:41 PM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I LOVE 'this me'. This extraordinary use of coding language is truly where
> LC  shines and why I love it so much, - sometimes. [sigh]
>
> Sean
>

and that's why your fonts break - because you "LOVE" - not "love", not
"Love", not "l-o-l-o-l-o-v-e", but "LOVE" "this me".
you're welcome.


From pystcat at gmail.com  Wed Aug 26 09:30:56 2020
From: pystcat at gmail.com (Paul Pystcat)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:30:56 -0400
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycMJgVoxWPX8Tnm_Gtu+mOnjQFbfLi8yfB9e1s8uVbETMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycMJgVoxWPX8Tnm_Gtu+mOnjQFbfLi8yfB9e1s8uVbETMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5F6F749-DC98-4868-AC13-E739A9345833@gmail.com>

ROFL

THAT was gouda!

(I know, I know!  I broke one of the rules? no politics, no religion and no cheese)

> On Aug 26, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:41 PM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I LOVE 'this me'. This extraordinary use of coding language is truly where
>> LC  shines and why I love it so much, - sometimes. [sigh]
>> 
>> Sean
>> 
> 
> and that's why your fonts break - because you "LOVE" - not "love", not
> "Love", not "l-o-l-o-l-o-v-e", but "LOVE" "this me".
> you're welcome.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Aug 26 09:58:14 2020
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:58:14 -0400
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <174299815b8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4C5CEB0A-768A-49B9-923C-6B2022B7979D@m-r-d.de>
 <CABRqQSTAb_1XdK6GZh5iNg=jcNy5Mf4vcQnwOPf3PRedmpuudQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <174299815b8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <001101d67bb0$f46a0e20$dd3e2a60$@net>

J,

I take it you referring to the premature mouse "down/up"s you get with
Android while perusing in a native scroller. This is not a problem for me in
iOS. I put in a simple timer and it does not adversely affect iOS(or affect
it in any way) but does make the scrolling in Android work as expected. If
my supposition is correct I'm just wondering why you do it only for Android?

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 3:08 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: Re: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds

On August 25, 2020 7:47:00 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>

> The projects deadline was Monday morning, which was completed. It 
> doesn't take away from the fact that next time I will face it all 
> again because LC won't fix the fundamentals. They don't live up to 
> their promises. They LIE (Jacque won't accept it, but they make many 
> claims on their site and to me in person that simply are proven 
> false). I'm just tired of people making me out to be irrelevant and any
claim I make to be false.

I don't think you're either irrelevant or incorrect, I only object to the
disrespect you've shown for people who work hard to bring us the tool we
love and depend on. Any bugs you found are certainly based in fact, as
you've shown. But there are much better ways to express discontent than what
we've seen here. I also understand that you are battling some personal
issues that may be out of your control, for which I am very sorry. But you
can't expect warm replies to rants that are hurtful to the very people who
attempt to help. Remember when we were worried about you and took up a fund
to help? You got mad at us for that too.

As for "code once, run anywhere," I've recently completed two apps in four
different flavors. I did not need to make any adjustments between the Mac
and Windows apps, or between the iOS and Android apps with one exception for
the native scroller on Android. And because the two products were siimilar
in many ways (one inspired the other,) I could re-use about 70% of the
desktop code to create the mobile apps.

Two mobile apps with identical code bases, except for native Android
scroller:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1517450678
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.friendshippress.wordathand

Mac and Windows apps with identical code bases:
https://thinkingstrings.com/interactive-explorations/  (click product titles
to see screenshots) And the mobile versions:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.thinkingstrings.tsmobile
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1496668393

There is one more thing that differs between Android and iOS apps, and
that's native appearance. Your font issue is similar to this. My mobile
products each contain a handler I call "setupUI" which adjusts the
appearance of all controls to conform to the platform's GUI. It sets the
properties of all buttons, fields, text, etc., whatever is necessary to make
the app look as expected for the OS. It's a long handler and I add to it as
I do the initial layout. Then I run the handler manually from the message
box before doing the build for each mobile platform. This is all cosmetic
work, and I don't consider it part of the code base because it isn't what
runs my apps. It just makes them look right. It's an automated way to switch
between iOS and Android appearance, with the advantage of allowing me to
flip between the two GUIs quickly during developent.

I generally don't need to do that for desktop apps, because LC handles most
of the GUI issues for me. The fact that you've found an edge case is
probably why you're so angry; we get spoiled because we take it for granted
that LC is going to do it all for us. The link Mark gave us explains the
reason (and though the author is working with HTML, the reason behind the
problem does apply to LC as well. It isn't as irrelevant as you thought.)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software |
http://www.hyperactivesw.com



_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From phil at liverpool.ac.uk  Wed Aug 26 10:07:10 2020
From: phil at liverpool.ac.uk (Jimmieson, Phil)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:07:10 +0000
Subject: Adding items to a group
In-Reply-To: <820ac15d5b9b24936c8d28c20243a189@livecode.com>
References: <2A26E5D0-1F87-4173-95CF-E6E0001C41AC@liverpool.ac.uk>
 <820ac15d5b9b24936c8d28c20243a189@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <FC410FE1-9DB8-41F3-996A-9108376EA5F9@liverpool.ac.uk>

Thanks very much Mark, the relayer command is exactly what I needed.


relayer field ?xx? to the front of group ?thePoem? ?adds the field to the poem group at the top of the group

relayer field ?xx? after group ?thePoem? ?removes the field from the poem group and leaves it in front of the group


On 26 Aug 2020, at 10:27, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

On 2020-08-26 10:06, Jimmieson, Phil via use-livecode wrote:
One thing I?m considering is having a set of dummy hidden items
already in the group and making one of those look like the word the
user just dragged in - thus it?s already a member of the group and can
be scrolled etc with the rest. Can anyone think of any better ways of
doing it?

Take a look at the 'relayer' command in the dictionary. It allows you to move controls up and down the layer order and in and out of groups easily (without any need to ungroup/regroup).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com<mailto:mark at livecode.com> ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

--
Phil Jimmieson
University of Liverpool, Computer Science Department
Ashton Bldg, Ashton Street, Liverpool. L69 3BX
0151 795 4236



From merakosp at gmail.com  Wed Aug 26 10:07:40 2020
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:07:40 +0300
Subject: MySQL Client on
In-Reply-To: <CACjPeOT8zKs-b83gczR5ALuoWs9DjHUXSkf5PjEjvnXAQCx2ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACjPeOT8zKs-b83gczR5ALuoWs9DjHUXSkf5PjEjvnXAQCx2ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq-Sqw-junLwzUm2vYRq4ktKOMOqabin6j_PiLYirkSZUw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

This is because MySQL 8 supports a stronger authentication method based on
SHA256, and this method is used by default.

LiveCode (as well as some other MySQL connectors/clients) do not support
this authentication method yet. In this case, you could configure your
MySQL installation to use the legacy authentication (password encryption)
method.

See the suggested answers in this link:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50093144/mysql-8-0-client-does-not-support-authentication-protocol-requested-by-server/50961428

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Panos
--



On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 07:30, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I am using revOpenDatabase with the "MySQL" parameter on LiveCode server.
>
> I am getting an error:
>
> *Client does not support authentication protocol requested by server;
> consider upgrading MySQL client*
>
> What can I do?? I am in a real hole as the version of mySQL was updated to
> the latest version 8.0 and now LiveCode server is NOT working???
>
>
> Please advise,
>
> Todd Fabacher
>
> PS I never got LC server to open a Postgres Database. I need some help
> here.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From merakosp at gmail.com  Wed Aug 26 10:08:55 2020
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:08:55 +0300
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

This is because MySQL 8 supports a stronger authentication method based on
SHA256, and this method is used by default.

LiveCode (as well as some other MySQL connectors/clients) do not support
this authentication method yet. In this case, you could configure your
MySQL installation to use the legacy authentication (password encryption)
method.

See the suggested answers in this link:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50093144/mysql-8-0-client-does-not-support-authentication-protocol-requested-by-server/50961428

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 18:41, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> mySQL for which platform? Last I checked, the build for Windows did NOT
> support encryption. There is a special branch that does, but I could never
> get it to work.
>
> What I came up with is an agent that resides on the SQL server, built in
> Livecode that listens for connections. It then handles the queries locally
> and returns the data.
>
> The client and Server encrypt the data before sending it using a method
> only I know, so it?s very secure. The communications are done but I haven?t
> done the actual query side yet. That will be a half day?s work at most.
>
> I think this client server approach is far better than native encryption,
> because I control the method and use a technique where even if someone
> tried brute force, or somehow discovered the key, they still could not
> decrypt the data, and wouldn?t know why.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Dear livecode programmers,
>
> For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB database
> (no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
> The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.
>
> The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the SSL
> encryption suddenly stopped working.
>
> The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).
>
> There are the tests:
>
> *From the server:*
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From mkoob at rogers.com  Wed Aug 26 10:20:46 2020
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:20:46 -0400
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <C5F6F749-DC98-4868-AC13-E739A9345833@gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycMJgVoxWPX8Tnm_Gtu+mOnjQFbfLi8yfB9e1s8uVbETMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C5F6F749-DC98-4868-AC13-E739A9345833@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1E09EE45-DB5E-4E88-8C3C-7FD6D8B4AABD@rogers.com>

Is there a rule regarding puns?

Martin

> On Aug 26, 2020, at 9:30 AM, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ROFL
> 
> THAT was gouda!
> 
> (I know, I know!  I broke one of the rules? no politics, no religion and no cheese)
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:41 PM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I LOVE 'this me'. This extraordinary use of coding language is truly where
>>> LC  shines and why I love it so much, - sometimes. [sigh]
>>> 
>>> Sean
>>> 
>> 
>> and that's why your fonts break - because you "LOVE" - not "love", not
>> "Love", not "l-o-l-o-l-o-v-e", but "LOVE" "this me".
>> you're welcome.
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Wed Aug 26 10:42:09 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:42:09 +0200
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>

There are also free MySQL Connectors/ODBC available for different operating systems. The current ones are for Server 8.0,5.7 and 5.6.

https://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/odbc/

They connectors can be downloaded without the need to be logged in. So no need for an account registration at dev.mysql.com

Maybe this is an option instead of lowering the encryption level?

Matthias
-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 26.08.2020 um 16:08 schrieb panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> This is because MySQL 8 supports a stronger authentication method based on
> SHA256, and this method is used by default.
> 
> LiveCode (as well as some other MySQL connectors/clients) do not support
> this authentication method yet. In this case, you could configure your
> MySQL installation to use the legacy authentication (password encryption)
> method.
> 
> See the suggested answers in this link:
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50093144/mysql-8-0-client-does-not-support-authentication-protocol-requested-by-server/50961428
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Panos
> --
> 
> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 18:41, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> mySQL for which platform? Last I checked, the build for Windows did NOT
>> support encryption. There is a special branch that does, but I could never
>> get it to work.
>> 
>> What I came up with is an agent that resides on the SQL server, built in
>> Livecode that listens for connections. It then handles the queries locally
>> and returns the data.
>> 
>> The client and Server encrypt the data before sending it using a method
>> only I know, so it?s very secure. The communications are done but I haven?t
>> done the actual query side yet. That will be a half day?s work at most.
>> 
>> I think this client server approach is far better than native encryption,
>> because I control the method and use a technique where even if someone
>> tried brute force, or somehow discovered the key, they still could not
>> decrypt the data, and wouldn?t know why.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear livecode programmers,
>> 
>> For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB database
>> (no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
>> The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.
>> 
>> The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the SSL
>> encryption suddenly stopped working.
>> 
>> The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).
>> 
>> There are the tests:
>> 
>> *From the server:*
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From devin_asay at byu.edu  Wed Aug 26 10:45:53 2020
From: devin_asay at byu.edu (Devin Asay)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:45:53 +0000
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <1E09EE45-DB5E-4E88-8C3C-7FD6D8B4AABD@rogers.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycMJgVoxWPX8Tnm_Gtu+mOnjQFbfLi8yfB9e1s8uVbETMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C5F6F749-DC98-4868-AC13-E739A9345833@gmail.com>
 <1E09EE45-DB5E-4E88-8C3C-7FD6D8B4AABD@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <2649C82A-5678-4BF7-A4F7-B98B498E3F3C@byu.edu>

Only cheese puns.

> On Aug 26, 2020, at 8:20 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Is there a rule regarding puns?
> 
> Martin
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 9:30 AM, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ROFL
>> 
>> THAT was gouda!
>> 
>> (I know, I know!  I broke one of the rules? no politics, no religion and no cheese)
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:41 PM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I LOVE 'this me'. This extraordinary use of coding language is truly where
>>>> LC  shines and why I love it so much, - sometimes. [sigh]
>>>> 
>>>> Sean
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> and that's why your fonts break - because you "LOVE" - not "love", not
>>> "Love", not "l-o-l-o-l-o-v-e", but "LOVE" "this me".
>>> you're welcome.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University


From keith.clarke at me.com  Wed Aug 26 11:04:45 2020
From: keith.clarke at me.com (Keith Clarke)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:04:45 +0100
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <1E09EE45-DB5E-4E88-8C3C-7FD6D8B4AABD@rogers.com>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycMJgVoxWPX8Tnm_Gtu+mOnjQFbfLi8yfB9e1s8uVbETMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C5F6F749-DC98-4868-AC13-E739A9345833@gmail.com>
 <1E09EE45-DB5E-4E88-8C3C-7FD6D8B4AABD@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <A34454BE-3940-44B3-83E4-5A16DDB78E68@me.com>

Certainly best to avoid any made backwards.

> On 26 Aug 2020, at 15:20, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Is there a rule regarding puns?
> 
> Martin
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 9:30 AM, Paul Pystcat via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ROFL
>> 
>> THAT was gouda!
>> 
>> (I know, I know!  I broke one of the rules? no politics, no religion and no cheese)
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:41 PM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I LOVE 'this me'. This extraordinary use of coding language is truly where
>>>> LC  shines and why I love it so much, - sometimes. [sigh]
>>>> 
>>>> Sean
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> and that's why your fonts break - because you "LOVE" - not "love", not
>>> "Love", not "l-o-l-o-l-o-v-e", but "LOVE" "this me".
>>> you're welcome.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Aug 26 13:10:48 2020
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:10:48 -0500
Subject: Cross Platform Font Layout - current workarounds
In-Reply-To: <001101d67bb0$f46a0e20$dd3e2a60$@net>
References: <mailman.7.1598370197.402871.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <7DD55E6F-D0E8-43B3-B772-611A0567A021@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <64B8C716-4430-4688-A68C-257622BF1EF3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSTxuuMW0XK5irLuhrzCPTPztu6esgbMBMD7UWeoC-5WFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4C5CEB0A-768A-49B9-923C-6B2022B7979D@m-r-d.de>
 <CABRqQSTAb_1XdK6GZh5iNg=jcNy5Mf4vcQnwOPf3PRedmpuudQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <174299815b8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <001101d67bb0$f46a0e20$dd3e2a60$@net>
Message-ID: <1742bc029c0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

The problem was the lack of any mouseUp message at all when swiping 
horizontally, making it impossible to swipe for navigation over a scroller. 
We used a kludgy workaround, but the problem has been fixed now, so the 
next update can be completely cross platform without any diversions.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On August 26, 2020 9:25:55 AM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> J,
>
> I take it you referring to the premature mouse "down/up"s you get with
> Android while perusing in a native scroller.





From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Wed Aug 26 13:58:08 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 20:58:08 +0300
Subject: Big Sur issues
In-Reply-To: <DA894EEC-B5EA-4F8C-8E40-F516F56F89C2@gmail.com>
References: <2DF06255-1DF8-45BB-BC72-533357B85A82@gmail.com>
 <76194D90-381B-431D-BB6D-7FB28A7CADA1@iotecdigital.com>
 <EE1BC3B7-34AC-4B80-A2E5-D67ECD29F7E2@gmail.com>
 <CD8D3B49-4E0E-4A83-B349-1638E30A22B7@gmail.com>
 <DA894EEC-B5EA-4F8C-8E40-F516F56F89C2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ddf15dc-e815-c649-b256-d2c94f9d6c6a@gmail.com>

I am running Lc 9.6.1 on macOS 11 beta 5 without a backward glance, 
happy to say.

On 26.08.20 5:54, Marty Knapp via use-livecode wrote:
> I haven?t tried the LC development environment on Big Sur yet, just ran an already-built app. As far as the tabbed button, the issue is that the highlighted tab on Mac has a white background on Big Sur. So with the default white text you can?t see it, though the text is there.
>
> Marty
>
>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> In related news, I have an ARM64 Mac mini, and LC seems to be running ok.
>>
>> With the Tab Panel issue, did you notice that as you dragged it into place you could see the first tab?s text? That suggests that the highlighter for the tab has transparency issues, not that text is missing.
>>
>> WindowShape does work, but there is a card size backdrop. Also, while LiveCard is open all of your desktop is obscured by a backdrop as well.
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Bob, I may have to take you up on that. Hopefully it will get fixed. I did tinker with it a bit and found that if I set the backgroundColor of the button to something dark the text shows up, so the issue is the change in appearance to the active tab being white - so the default white text  is there, just not visible against a white background.
>>>
>>> Marty
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Aug 26 14:13:18 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:13:18 +0000
Subject: Adding items to a group
In-Reply-To: <820ac15d5b9b24936c8d28c20243a189@livecode.com>
References: <2A26E5D0-1F87-4173-95CF-E6E0001C41AC@liverpool.ac.uk>
 <820ac15d5b9b24936c8d28c20243a189@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <C0ABCC0E-62B6-4609-8311-94433522264D@iotecdigital.com>

Also, Geoff Canyon wrote a GREAT utility called Navigator, which among other things, allows you to drag objects around in a hierarchical list. If you drag an object in a group to somewhere outside that group, into another group let?s say, it does all the relaying for you.

I cannot tell you how many times this saved my bacon because I was editing groups and copy/pasting things into and out of other groups, and screwed it up.

Bob S


On Aug 26, 2020, at 2:27 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

On 2020-08-26 10:06, Jimmieson, Phil via use-livecode wrote:
One thing I?m considering is having a set of dummy hidden items
already in the group and making one of those look like the word the
user just dragged in - thus it?s already a member of the group and can
be scrolled etc with the rest. Can anyone think of any better ways of
doing it?

Take a look at the 'relayer' command in the dictionary. It allows you to move controls up and down the layer order and in and out of groups easily (without any need to ungroup/regroup).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com<mailto:mark at livecode.com> ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps


From bdrunrev at gmail.com  Wed Aug 26 14:26:56 2020
From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 19:26:56 +0100
Subject: Adding items to a group
In-Reply-To: <C0ABCC0E-62B6-4609-8311-94433522264D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <2A26E5D0-1F87-4173-95CF-E6E0001C41AC@liverpool.ac.uk>
 <820ac15d5b9b24936c8d28c20243a189@livecode.com>
 <C0ABCC0E-62B6-4609-8311-94433522264D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CA+O+R-HuxhGQL1ooAkO6=hOavhpkEnKVWm6sqC6z6FneHcRC7A@mail.gmail.com>

Whilst Mark provided what Phil needed, I too cannot believe how easy and
reliable Geoff's Navigator is.  I use it for everything. When I need an
Inspector a double-click on a line in Navigator brings it up.  I love it.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 7:14 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Also, Geoff Canyon wrote a GREAT utility called Navigator, which among
> other things, allows you to drag objects around in a hierarchical list. If
> you drag an object in a group to somewhere outside that group, into another
> group let?s say, it does all the relaying for you.
>
>


From dev at porta.ca  Wed Aug 26 16:21:18 2020
From: dev at porta.ca (Dev)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:21:18 -0600
Subject: Big Sur issues
In-Reply-To: <4ddf15dc-e815-c649-b256-d2c94f9d6c6a@gmail.com>
References: <4ddf15dc-e815-c649-b256-d2c94f9d6c6a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1786C8C-EA42-4FB9-9898-1BC7CD9638AE@porta.ca>

I tried to build a stand alone to my desktop under Big Sur, but my Mac would not let me because of permissions or provisions or some other such new restriction (I haven?t paid my $99, so I?m not a real Dev as far as Apple is concerned) so I went back to Catalina and everything worked. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?I am running Lc 9.6.1 on macOS 11 beta 5 without a backward glance, happy to say.
> 
>> On 26.08.20 5:54, Marty Knapp via use-livecode wrote:
>> I haven?t tried the LC development environment on Big Sur yet, just ran an already-built app. As far as the tabbed button, the issue is that the highlighted tab on Mac has a white background on Big Sur. So with the default white text you can?t see it, though the text is there.
>> 
>> Marty
>> 
>>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> In related news, I have an ARM64 Mac mini, and LC seems to be running ok.
>>> 
>>> With the Tab Panel issue, did you notice that as you dragged it into place you could see the first tab?s text? That suggests that the highlighter for the tab has transparency issues, not that text is missing.
>>> 
>>> WindowShape does work, but there is a card size backdrop. Also, while LiveCard is open all of your desktop is obscured by a backdrop as well.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks Bob, I may have to take you up on that. Hopefully it will get fixed. I did tinker with it a bit and found that if I set the backgroundColor of the button to something dark the text shows up, so the issue is the change in appearance to the active tab being white - so the default white text  is there, just not visible against a white background.
>>>> 
>>>> Marty
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Wed Aug 26 18:57:05 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:57:05 -0400
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <00d301d67bfc$39698500$ac3c8f00$@networkdreams.net>

Hi Bob,

It worked from Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Your idea sounds really good, but to be honest, I'm pretty busy these days and I wouldn't like  to deal with making middleware.
I just looking for a quick fix.

Maybe in the future, I?ll have to do it.


Best,
Hery

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 11:40 AM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com>
Subject: Re: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.

mySQL for which platform? Last I checked, the build for Windows did NOT support encryption. There is a special branch that does, but I could never get it to work.

What I came up with is an agent that resides on the SQL server, built in Livecode that listens for connections. It then handles the queries locally and returns the data.

The client and Server encrypt the data before sending it using a method only I know, so it?s very secure. The communications are done but I haven?t done the actual query side yet. That will be a half day?s work at most.

I think this client server approach is far better than native encryption, because I control the method and use a technique where even if someone tried brute force, or somehow discovered the key, they still could not decrypt the data, and wouldn?t know why.

Bob S


On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Dear livecode programmers,

For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB database (no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.

The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the SSL encryption suddenly stopped working.

The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).

There are the tests:

*From the server:*

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Wed Aug 26 18:59:26 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:59:26 -0400
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d501d67bfc$8d604540$a820cfc0$@networkdreams.net>

Hi Panagiotis,

It makes sense, I'm going to try it.

Thank you very much for your recommendations.
I would like to say that this list is great.

Best,
Hery


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:09 AM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: panagiotis merakos <merakosp at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.

Hello all,

This is because MySQL 8 supports a stronger authentication method based on SHA256, and this method is used by default.

LiveCode (as well as some other MySQL connectors/clients) do not support this authentication method yet. In this case, you could configure your MySQL installation to use the legacy authentication (password encryption) method.

See the suggested answers in this link:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50093144/mysql-8-0-client-does-not-support-authentication-protocol-requested-by-server/50961428

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 18:41, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> mySQL for which platform? Last I checked, the build for Windows did 
> NOT support encryption. There is a special branch that does, but I 
> could never get it to work.
>
> What I came up with is an agent that resides on the SQL server, built 
> in Livecode that listens for connections. It then handles the queries 
> locally and returns the data.
>
> The client and Server encrypt the data before sending it using a 
> method only I know, so it?s very secure. The communications are done 
> but I haven?t done the actual query side yet. That will be a half day?s work at most.
>
> I think this client server approach is far better than native 
> encryption, because I control the method and use a technique where 
> even if someone tried brute force, or somehow discovered the key, they 
> still could not decrypt the data, and wouldn?t know why.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < 
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Dear livecode programmers,
>
> For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB 
> database (no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
> The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.
>
> The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the 
> SSL encryption suddenly stopped working.
>
> The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).
>
> There are the tests:
>
> *From the server:*
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Wed Aug 26 19:03:16 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 19:03:16 -0400
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>

Hi Matthias,

Do you mean connecting to MySQL using ODBC instead of the built-in LiveCode MySQL client?

Best,
Hery

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of matthias rebbe via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:42 AM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de
Subject: Re: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.

There are also free MySQL Connectors/ODBC available for different operating systems. The current ones are for Server 8.0,5.7 and 5.6.

https://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/odbc/

They connectors can be downloaded without the need to be logged in. So no need for an account registration at dev.mysql.com

Maybe this is an option instead of lowering the encryption level?

Matthias
-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 26.08.2020 um 16:08 schrieb panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> This is because MySQL 8 supports a stronger authentication method 
> based on SHA256, and this method is used by default.
> 
> LiveCode (as well as some other MySQL connectors/clients) do not 
> support this authentication method yet. In this case, you could 
> configure your MySQL installation to use the legacy authentication 
> (password encryption) method.
> 
> See the suggested answers in this link:
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50093144/mysql-8-0-client-does-not
> -support-authentication-protocol-requested-by-server/50961428
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Panos
> --
> 
> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 18:41, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < 
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> mySQL for which platform? Last I checked, the build for Windows did 
>> NOT support encryption. There is a special branch that does, but I 
>> could never get it to work.
>> 
>> What I came up with is an agent that resides on the SQL server, built 
>> in Livecode that listens for connections. It then handles the queries 
>> locally and returns the data.
>> 
>> The client and Server encrypt the data before sending it using a 
>> method only I know, so it?s very secure. The communications are done 
>> but I haven?t done the actual query side yet. That will be a half day?s work at most.
>> 
>> I think this client server approach is far better than native 
>> encryption, because I control the method and use a technique where 
>> even if someone tried brute force, or somehow discovered the key, 
>> they still could not decrypt the data, and wouldn?t know why.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < 
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear livecode programmers,
>> 
>> For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB 
>> database (no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
>> The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.
>> 
>> The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the 
>> SSL encryption suddenly stopped working.
>> 
>> The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).
>> 
>> There are the tests:
>> 
>> *From the server:*
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From waprothero at gmail.com  Wed Aug 26 19:58:49 2020
From: waprothero at gmail.com (William Prothero)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:58:49 -0700
Subject: Basic question about behaviors
In-Reply-To: <64CE67E1-B8B5-4837-ADAC-61CC9385B500@livecode.org>
References: <CABRqQSTdwGu6AB1s0tgEqx_L27Wasux42tYnvsc4CMWj2pOnZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9ee42ab-5d28-bdbb-4951-b9f670cbc1e1@gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSQtz_YUv5vuJc+WgtXi1tKRs6BuoiqH0Sk2Vxdy+v8iEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <174237fdfa8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <8535774A-9E61-4525-9755-5CBB710A47DE@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <E76C1B23-E8BF-4E80-ABC4-5B4D5D071FE3@iotecdigital.com>
 <CABRqQSQFa5ka-vjsABhTW9kGN=MhS3SHJ-oZ+T=b3QttRXVGGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F607534A-4ED8-4110-B7FE-EEA8E548B476@gmail.com>
 <64CE67E1-B8B5-4837-ADAC-61CC9385B500@livecode.org>
Message-ID: <2576805D-6B38-466C-9911-F4983153A59C@gmail.com>

Thanks, Paul. That worked.
Bill

William A. Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:03 PM, Paul Hibbert via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Bill, try this in the behaviour button script:
> 
> on mouseUp
>  put the long name of this me into theName  ?theName will contain the long name of the behaviour button.
> end mouseUp
> 
> put this me into theName - would put the value contained in the text property of the behaviour button into theName. In standard, default and rectangle buttons we don?t normally use the text property, but there?s nothing stopping you from using it if you wish, you just need to populate it first. :)
> 
> Paul
> 
>> On 25Aug, 2020, at 15:48, William Prothero via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> on mouseUp
>>  put  this me into theName  ?theName is blank.
>> end mouseUP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com  Thu Aug 27 00:36:29 2020
From: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com (Andrew at MidWest Coast Media)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 00:36:29 -0400
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
Message-ID: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>

I was inspired by today?s Lockdown Learning Series presentation and looked at adding swipe gestures to a current project. This whole process made WAY more sense after re-watching Michael?s presentation (I saw it live too, but was over my head last year). I?m struggling with a large DG. I?ve got my custom swipe controls working and triggering custom swipe actions. But I?m having problems with my mouseDown.

If there is a swipe control open and you tap a different visible row, the open swipe control is closed (with or w/o animation). 
If there is a swipe control open and the DG scrolls to a point where that control is no longer on-screen, that swipe control doesn?t close even though a new row is highlighted. 

The closest workaround I could come up with was to check for vertical scroll and just kill all swipe controls. Is this expected behavior or bug?

on scrollerDidScroll pHScroll, pVScroll
	if pVScroll > 50 then
		dispatch "RowSwipeHideControl" to group "DataGrid" with TRUE
	end if
end scrollerDidScroll

The highlighted row when scrolling is a separate bug patched by Mike Wieder  https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798 <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798> awaiting a GitHub merge, but turning on delayTouches makes the swipe animation jerky because the scroller has to decide if it?s scrolling first so the swipe controls aren?t very responsive. Would be curious if these two things can live in harmony. Any DG2 advice?

-Andrew Bell

From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Thu Aug 27 04:34:06 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:34:06 +0300
Subject: [Bug 22881] commandKey does not do what it should do on Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <bug-22881-1089-s6gy7ZlmpE@https.quality.livecode.com/>
References: <bug-22881-1089@https.quality.livecode.com/>
 <bug-22881-1089-s6gy7ZlmpE@https.quality.livecode.com/>
Message-ID: <c7dbb5e8-d86a-87b2-a9da-4e1b83daa0ba@gmail.com>

The blasted bug-thing will not let me post my reply: so here it is, for 
ALL to see
(and a certain person should know full well what I mean in that respect):

Wonderful in several ways:

1. The nearest thing I have ever seen to instant feedback.

[What sort of coffee are you "on"?]

2. Hits the nail right on the head.

Thank you very much indeed.

On 27.08.20 11:22, bugzilla-daemon at molly.livecode.com wrote:
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22881
>
> Mark Waddingham <mark at livecode.com> changed:
>
>             What    |Removed                     |Added
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>               Status|UNCONFIRMED                 |RESOLVED
>                   CC|                            |mark at livecode.com
>           Resolution|---                         |NOT_A_BUG
>
> --- Comment #1 from Mark Waddingham <mark at livecode.com> ---
> Hi Richmond,
>
> You don't get a keyDown message if the command key is down - you get
> commandKeyDown instead - and a handler the focused (user) stack when browse
> mode is on will receive that message first.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
>
> Mark Waddingham <mailto:mark at livecode.com> changed bug 22881 
> <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22881>
> What 	Removed 	Added
> Status 	UNCONFIRMED 	RESOLVED
> CC 		mark at livecode.com
> Resolution 	--- 	NOT_A_BUG
>
> *Comment # 1 <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22881#c1> 
> on bug 22881 <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22881> from 
> Mark Waddingham <mailto:mark at livecode.com> *
> Hi Richmond,
>
> You don't get a keyDown message if the command key is down - you get
> commandKeyDown instead - and a handler the focused (user) stack when browse
> mode is on will receive that message first.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You are receiving this mail because:
>
>   * You are on the CC list for the bug.
>   * You reported the bug.
>



From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Thu Aug 27 05:58:00 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:58:00 +0200
Subject: [Bug 22881] commandKey does not do what it should do on Macintosh
In-Reply-To: <c7dbb5e8-d86a-87b2-a9da-4e1b83daa0ba@gmail.com>
References: <bug-22881-1089@https.quality.livecode.com/>
 <bug-22881-1089-s6gy7ZlmpE@https.quality.livecode.com/>
 <c7dbb5e8-d86a-87b2-a9da-4e1b83daa0ba@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <421B836C-0C87-4F9A-BBCB-AE83317C95C1@m-r-d.de>

Seems you are really overwhelmed. 
3 times posted in the bugbase and once here. Respect!

;)

Matthias

-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 27.08.2020 um 10:34 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> The blasted bug-thing will not let me post my reply: so here it is, for ALL to see
> (and a certain person should know full well what I mean in that respect):
> 
> Wonderful in several ways:
> 
> 1. The nearest thing I have ever seen to instant feedback.
> 
> [What sort of coffee are you "on"?]
> 
> 2. Hits the nail right on the head.
> 
> Thank you very much indeed.
> 
> On 27.08.20 11:22, bugzilla-daemon at molly.livecode.com wrote:
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22881
>> 
>> Mark Waddingham <mark at livecode.com> changed:
>> 
>>            What    |Removed                     |Added
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>              Status|UNCONFIRMED                 |RESOLVED
>>                  CC|                            |mark at livecode.com
>>          Resolution|---                         |NOT_A_BUG
>> 
>> --- Comment #1 from Mark Waddingham <mark at livecode.com> ---
>> Hi Richmond,
>> 
>> You don't get a keyDown message if the command key is down - you get
>> commandKeyDown instead - and a handler the focused (user) stack when browse
>> mode is on will receive that message first.
>> 
>> Warmest Regards,
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> 
>> Mark Waddingham <mailto:mark at livecode.com> changed bug 22881 <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22881>
>> What 	Removed 	Added
>> Status 	UNCONFIRMED 	RESOLVED
>> CC 		mark at livecode.com
>> Resolution 	--- 	NOT_A_BUG
>> 
>> *Comment # 1 <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22881#c1> on bug 22881 <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22881> from Mark Waddingham <mailto:mark at livecode.com> *
>> Hi Richmond,
>> 
>> You don't get a keyDown message if the command key is down - you get
>> commandKeyDown instead - and a handler the focused (user) stack when browse
>> mode is on will receive that message first.
>> 
>> Warmest Regards,
>> 
>> Mark.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> You are receiving this mail because:
>> 
>>  * You are on the CC list for the bug.
>>  * You reported the bug.
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Thu Aug 27 11:38:31 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:38:31 -0700
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>
References: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>
Message-ID: <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e@sonic.net>

On 8/26/20 9:36 PM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode wrote:

> The highlighted row when scrolling is a separate bug patched by Mike Wieder  https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798 <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798> awaiting a GitHub merge, but turning on delayTouches makes the swipe animation jerky because the scroller has to decide if it?s scrolling first so the swipe controls aren?t very responsive. Would be curious if these two things can live in harmony. Any DG2 advice?

That's actually Mike Kerner's fix. I just added a comment. Or two.
Trying to prioritize getting it looked at.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Aug 27 11:40:36 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:40:36 +0000
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
 <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
Message-ID: <54159268-9022-4C6A-BF43-59F693D46958@iotecdigital.com>

Just a heads up, ODBC is a local service, not a network protocol. You have to create a DSN on the client OS which handles the network communications for you. So every client that connects will need to have this DSN set up first. For the experienced, this is no big deal, but for the first time initiate it can be confusing.

Bob S


On Aug 26, 2020, at 4:03 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Hi Matthias,

Do you mean connecting to MySQL using ODBC instead of the built-in LiveCode MySQL client?

Best,
Hery



From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Thu Aug 27 11:55:08 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:55:08 +0200
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <54159268-9022-4C6A-BF43-59F693D46958@iotecdigital.com>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
 <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
 <54159268-9022-4C6A-BF43-59F693D46958@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <5A7B93D0-94B7-4D79-A428-948E639BC4BD@m-r-d.de>

You are correct.
But as Heriberto wort, it is an inhouse app, i thought using ODBC connector from Oracle might be better than lowering the security level of the database.



-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 27.08.2020 um 17:40 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Just a heads up, ODBC is a local service, not a network protocol. You have to create a DSN on the client OS which handles the network communications for you. So every client that connects will need to have this DSN set up first. For the experienced, this is no big deal, but for the first time initiate it can be confusing.
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> On Aug 26, 2020, at 4:03 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Matthias,
> 
> Do you mean connecting to MySQL using ODBC instead of the built-in LiveCode MySQL client?
> 
> Best,
> Hery
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Thu Aug 27 11:55:49 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:55:49 +0200
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <5A7B93D0-94B7-4D79-A428-948E639BC4BD@m-r-d.de>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
 <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
 <54159268-9022-4C6A-BF43-59F693D46958@iotecdigital.com>
 <5A7B93D0-94B7-4D79-A428-948E639BC4BD@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <C35F0D15-B49A-40C7-8145-32F13D1085CD@m-r-d.de>

Of course it was meant to be

"But as Heriberto wrote,......"

-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 27.08.2020 um 17:55 schrieb matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de:
> 
> You are correct.
> But as Heriberto wort, it is an inhouse app, i thought using ODBC connector from Oracle might be better than lowering the security level of the database.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
> 
>> Am 27.08.2020 um 17:40 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Just a heads up, ODBC is a local service, not a network protocol. You have to create a DSN on the client OS which handles the network communications for you. So every client that connects will need to have this DSN set up first. For the experienced, this is no big deal, but for the first time initiate it can be confusing.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 4:03 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Matthias,
>> 
>> Do you mean connecting to MySQL using ODBC instead of the built-in LiveCode MySQL client?
>> 
>> Best,
>> Hery
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Thu Aug 27 12:05:06 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:05:06 -0400
Subject: Hacktoberfest is coming
Message-ID: <CADCoycMZr5X_R=Ln_nYy24MYrMfXm611hkgN=H_stXuk6x6rMw@mail.gmail.com>

It's just over a month away, this year's Hacktoberfest
If you have or know of a LC repo that would appreciate some love, please
put it here, and let's see if we can get some folks involved in
participating in making the LC universe a better place.

In case you have no idea what I'm talking about, Hacktoberfest is an annual
festival run on Github.  It rewards people who participate by submitting
pull requests (usually 3) with some swag like t-shirts, stickers, etc.

You have to sign up for it for your PR's to qualify.
ANY PR to a public repo qualifies.  So, if you fix some LC documentation
and submit a PR, it counts.  If you fix the way the datagrid handles
scrolling on mobile, it counts.  If you add some badass feature to Levure,
it counts.

Please discuss, here, add a repo and/or an update that you would like to
see to a particular repo (include a link to the repo), and let's see if we
can get a bunch of LC Hackers, this year.

-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Thu Aug 27 12:07:59 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:07:59 -0400
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e@sonic.net>
References: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <CADCoycMAp5JN_dC35FeasTC0YS_hoPZ2ayBcaNSHM2PH6hK4CA@mail.gmail.com>

name's mikey.  y'all can call me...
mikey

howdy.

i think it was just one line of code, too, right?  it was just a matter of
setting the delayTouches to true.  i have no idea why it was originally
"false".

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 11:39 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 8/26/20 9:36 PM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > The highlighted row when scrolling is a separate bug patched by Mike
> Wieder  https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798 <
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798> awaiting a GitHub
> merge, but turning on delayTouches makes the swipe animation jerky because
> the scroller has to decide if it?s scrolling first so the swipe controls
> aren?t very responsive. Would be curious if these two things can live in
> harmony. Any DG2 advice?
>
> That's actually Mike Kerner's fix. I just added a comment. Or two.
> Trying to prioritize getting it looked at.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Thu Aug 27 12:09:27 2020
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:09:27 +0200
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
 <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
Message-ID: <78174C9A-240B-49D2-BCFB-8E76E323943E@m-r-d.de>

Heriberto,

i just tried the ODBC drivers from Oracle here with MacOS X and MariaDB.

If you would like i can list the needed steps:

1. download and install the drivers for your operating system

2. Open ODBC Manager on Mac, i am not sure how this is called in English for the Windows app, but if you search for ODBC in the search field of Windows you'll get the configuration tool listed.

3. Add a new User or System DSN. You can select between Ansi and Unicode driver

4.1 In the following configuration dialog enter a name for the DNS, e.g. HeribertoDSN
4.2 Add the Keyword 'SERVER' and add the name or the ip address of the DB Server as value, e.g. HeribertoDB
If the DB is not using the standard port, then please add the port also. e.g. 192.168.1.1:3308
4.3 Add the Keyword DATABASE and enter the name of the DB as value
There are several other keywords you can use. But the above are the basic ones you need.

now use 
revOpenDatabase("odbc", "HeribertoDSN","HeribertoDB",dbUsername,dbPassword,)

replace dbUsername and dbPassword with the user credentials for the DB.

You could also add the keywords USERNAME and PASSWORD in the DSN configuration from step 4, but i would do that only for testing.

Btw. the documentation for the ODBC driver can be found here.

Regards,

Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 27.08.2020 um 01:03 schrieb Heriberto Torrado <htorrado at networkdreams.net>:
> 
> Hi Matthias,
> 
> Do you mean connecting to MySQL using ODBC instead of the built-in LiveCode MySQL client?
> 
> Best,
> Hery
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of matthias rebbe via use-livecode
> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:42 AM
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de
> Subject: Re: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
> 
> There are also free MySQL Connectors/ODBC available for different operating systems. The current ones are for Server 8.0,5.7 and 5.6.
> 
> https://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/odbc/
> 
> They connectors can be downloaded without the need to be logged in. So no need for an account registration at dev.mysql.com
> 
> Maybe this is an option instead of lowering the encryption level?
> 
> Matthias
> -
> Matthias Rebbe
> Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
> 
>> Am 26.08.2020 um 16:08 schrieb panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> This is because MySQL 8 supports a stronger authentication method 
>> based on SHA256, and this method is used by default.
>> 
>> LiveCode (as well as some other MySQL connectors/clients) do not 
>> support this authentication method yet. In this case, you could 
>> configure your MySQL installation to use the legacy authentication 
>> (password encryption) method.
>> 
>> See the suggested answers in this link:
>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50093144/mysql-8-0-client-does-not
>> -support-authentication-protocol-requested-by-server/50961428
>> 
>> Hope this helps.
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> Panos
>> --
>> 
>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 18:41, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < 
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> mySQL for which platform? Last I checked, the build for Windows did 
>>> NOT support encryption. There is a special branch that does, but I 
>>> could never get it to work.
>>> 
>>> What I came up with is an agent that resides on the SQL server, built 
>>> in Livecode that listens for connections. It then handles the queries 
>>> locally and returns the data.
>>> 
>>> The client and Server encrypt the data before sending it using a 
>>> method only I know, so it?s very secure. The communications are done 
>>> but I haven?t done the actual query side yet. That will be a half day?s work at most.
>>> 
>>> I think this client server approach is far better than native 
>>> encryption, because I control the method and use a technique where 
>>> even if someone tried brute force, or somehow discovered the key, 
>>> they still could not decrypt the data, and wouldn?t know why.
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < 
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear livecode programmers,
>>> 
>>> For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB 
>>> database (no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
>>> The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.
>>> 
>>> The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the 
>>> SSL encryption suddenly stopped working.
>>> 
>>> The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).
>>> 
>>> There are the tests:
>>> 
>>> *From the server:*
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 



From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Thu Aug 27 12:33:03 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:33:03 -0400
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <54159268-9022-4C6A-BF43-59F693D46958@iotecdigital.com>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
 <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
 <54159268-9022-4C6A-BF43-59F693D46958@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <008f01d67c8f$bd984990$38c8dcb0$@networkdreams.net>

Got it, but it could be a problem for mobile users.

I know how to create a ODBC connection on Windows/Linux/Mac, but doing it on
Android it's out of my reach.

Best,
Hery

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of Bob
Sneidar via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:41 AM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com>
Subject: Re: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.

Just a heads up, ODBC is a local service, not a network protocol. You have
to create a DSN on the client OS which handles the network communications
for you. So every client that connects will need to have this DSN set up
first. For the experienced, this is no big deal, but for the first time
initiate it can be confusing.

Bob S


On Aug 26, 2020, at 4:03 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Hi Matthias,

Do you mean connecting to MySQL using ODBC instead of the built-in LiveCode
MySQL client?

Best,
Hery

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Thu Aug 27 12:34:49 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:34:49 -0400
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <5A7B93D0-94B7-4D79-A428-948E639BC4BD@m-r-d.de>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
 <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
 <54159268-9022-4C6A-BF43-59F693D46958@iotecdigital.com>
 <5A7B93D0-94B7-4D79-A428-948E639BC4BD@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <009101d67c8f$fc0f7f90$f42e7eb0$@networkdreams.net>

Thanks Mattias,

Yes, it is an internal app, but I have a few users using Android.

Best,
Hery

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of
matthias rebbe via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 11:55 AM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de
Subject: Re: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.

You are correct.
But as Heriberto wort, it is an inhouse app, i thought using ODBC connector
from Oracle might be better than lowering the security level of the
database.



-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code

> Am 27.08.2020 um 17:40 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Just a heads up, ODBC is a local service, not a network protocol. You have
to create a DSN on the client OS which handles the network communications
for you. So every client that connects will need to have this DSN set up
first. For the experienced, this is no big deal, but for the first time
initiate it can be confusing.
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> On Aug 26, 2020, at 4:03 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Matthias,
> 
> Do you mean connecting to MySQL using ODBC instead of the built-in
LiveCode MySQL client?
> 
> Best,
> Hery
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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From htorrado at networkdreams.net  Thu Aug 27 12:37:53 2020
From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:37:53 -0400
Subject: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.
In-Reply-To: <78174C9A-240B-49D2-BCFB-8E76E323943E@m-r-d.de>
References: <f5156217-dd46-1cce-ec00-be1368bc1bcc@networkdreams.net>
 <EDC27C87-13D6-4F4A-A52A-680A6936C092@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA+JfEq9=jtfSq4xN=7KUif3sRVD3vUNBk_-9d=TuDJ1=0YNm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <5808A406-88C3-49A8-9CC3-AECEB46D826E@m-r-d.de>
 <00d701d67bfd$15d262a0$417727e0$@networkdreams.net>
 <78174C9A-240B-49D2-BCFB-8E76E323943E@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <009301d67c90$6a8feb80$3fafc280$@networkdreams.net>

Thanks Mattias,

 

I appreciate your knowledge.

 

You are very useful and kind (as always).

 

Best,

Hery

 

From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de <matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de> 
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 12:09 PM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: htorrado at networkdreams.net
Subject: Re: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.

 

Heriberto,

 

i just tried the ODBC drivers from Oracle here with MacOS X and MariaDB.

 

If you would like i can list the needed steps:

 

1. download and install the drivers for your operating system

 

2. Open ODBC Manager on Mac, i am not sure how this is called in English for the Windows app, but if you search for ODBC in the search field of Windows you'll get the configuration tool listed.

 

3. Add a new User or System DSN. You can select between Ansi and Unicode driver

 

4.1 In the following configuration dialog enter a name for the DNS, e.g. HeribertoDSN

4.2 Add the Keyword 'SERVER' and add the name or the ip address of the DB Server as value, e.g. HeribertoDB

If the DB is not using the standard port, then please add the port also. e.g. 192.168.1.1:3308

4.3 Add the Keyword DATABASE and enter the name of the DB as value

There are several other keywords you can use. But the above are the basic ones you need.

 

now use 

revOpenDatabase("odbc", "HeribertoDSN","HeribertoDB",dbUsername,dbPassword,)

 

replace dbUsername and dbPassword with the user credentials for the DB.

 

You could also add the keywords USERNAME and PASSWORD in the DSN configuration from step 4, but i would do that only for testing.

 

Btw. the documentation for the ODBC driver can be found here.

 

Regards,

 

Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code





Am 27.08.2020 um 01:03 schrieb Heriberto Torrado <htorrado at networkdreams.net <mailto:htorrado at networkdreams.net> >:

 

Hi Matthias,

Do you mean connecting to MySQL using ODBC instead of the built-in LiveCode MySQL client?

Best,
Hery

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> > On Behalf Of matthias rebbe via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:42 AM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> >
Cc: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de <mailto:matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de> 
Subject: Re: Strange behavior between Mysql, MariaDB and SSL.

There are also free MySQL Connectors/ODBC available for different operating systems. The current ones are for Server 8.0,5.7 and 5.6.

https://dev.mysql.com/downloads/connector/odbc/

They connectors can be downloaded without the need to be logged in. So no need for an account registration at dev.mysql.com

Maybe this is an option instead of lowering the encryption level?

Matthias
-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code




Am 26.08.2020 um 16:08 schrieb panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> >:

Hello all,

This is because MySQL 8 supports a stronger authentication method 
based on SHA256, and this method is used by default.

LiveCode (as well as some other MySQL connectors/clients) do not 
support this authentication method yet. In this case, you could 
configure your MySQL installation to use the legacy authentication 
(password encryption) method.

See the suggested answers in this link:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50093144/mysql-8-0-client-does-not
-support-authentication-protocol-requested-by-server/50961428

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 18:41, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < 
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> > wrote:




mySQL for which platform? Last I checked, the build for Windows did 
NOT support encryption. There is a special branch that does, but I 
could never get it to work.

What I came up with is an agent that resides on the SQL server, built 
in Livecode that listens for connections. It then handles the queries 
locally and returns the data.

The client and Server encrypt the data before sending it using a 
method only I know, so it?s very secure. The communications are done 
but I haven?t done the actual query side yet. That will be a half day?s work at most.

I think this client server approach is far better than native 
encryption, because I control the method and use a technique where 
even if someone tried brute force, or somehow discovered the key, 
they still could not decrypt the data, and wouldn?t know why.

Bob S


On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < 
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com%3cmailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
wrote:

Dear livecode programmers,

For a few years we ran an internal app that accessed a MariaDB 
database (no PHP or LiveCode Server middleware, just a raw connection) using SSL.
The server running the database is old, so we moved to a new one.

The new one comes with a Mysql 8 Database instead of MariaDB and the 
SSL encryption suddenly stopped working.

The new MYSQL database has a working SSL encryption cert (Let's encrypt).

There are the tests:

*From the server:*

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Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
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Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

 



From mark at livecode.com  Thu Aug 27 14:16:35 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:16:35 +0100
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycMAp5JN_dC35FeasTC0YS_hoPZ2ayBcaNSHM2PH6hK4CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e@sonic.net>
 <CADCoycMAp5JN_dC35FeasTC0YS_hoPZ2ayBcaNSHM2PH6hK4CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <180af75a5ae85ab387320ac216771f78@livecode.com>

On 2020-08-27 17:07, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:
> name's mikey.  y'all can call me...
> mikey
> 
> howdy.
> 
> i think it was just one line of code, too, right?  it was just a matter 
> of
> setting the delayTouches to true.  i have no idea why it was originally
> "false".

Well, the advantage of generally trying to make sure all substantive 
changes made to the source have well structured commit titles and decent 
descriptions in the body means its easy to find out by grokking `git 
log` :D

It was changed precisely because of the issues Andrew pointed out with 
DG2, specifically in this commit:

commit ac1beee1dd113e203b6715fe472cf2fa88656bd5
Author: Michael McCreary <michael.mccreary at runrev.com>
Date:   Thu Dec 21 12:49:26 2017 +0000

     [[ DataGrid 2 ]] Fix drags to cooperate with the mobile scroller.

     Previously, a data grid's mobile scroller was getting in the way of
     reorder and swipe actions.

     To fix for reordering, we disable the scroller whenn the user clicks
     on a reorder control (and re-enable it when the reorder completes).

     Swipes are a little trickier. We track dragging on mouse down, but
     disabling the scroller at this point will prevent all scrolling.
     Instead we attempt to determine if the user is trying to drag the
     row before disabling the scroller.

I'd need to do some more digging to see if the highlight on touch has 
actually been caused by something else since  as I don't recall it being 
an issue, or noticed when DG2 debuted - but I could be wrong. Especially 
more since Android has never had a delayTouches mode.

Either this problem also affects Android, which means turning 
delayTouches on is not really an option (given the negative consequences 
to DG2 behavior); or it doesn't affect Android in which case something 
else has changed (potentially in the iOS scroller control itself).

I suspect we will just need a short timer on mouse down so that it only 
triggers a highlight *if* a scroll message isn't received within the 
interval of the timer.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com  Thu Aug 27 15:57:14 2020
From: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com (Andrew at MidWest Coast Media)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:57:14 -0400
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1598544001.446970.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1598544001.446970.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <BE000681-264E-4C76-B75A-538F2325A4BF@midwestcoastmedia.com>

My apologies to Mike AND Mark on the misquote, and *bump* to this bug. I had too many QC tabs open for bugs, am I right? ;) 

Is there a way to send a mobileControlSet ?delayTouches? command to the scroller created? I wasn?t sure how to get the ID since the DataGrid code made the scroller. 

-Andrew Bell

> 
> Subject: Re: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
> Message-ID: <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e at sonic.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> On 8/26/20 9:36 PM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode wrote:
> 
>> The highlighted row when scrolling is a separate bug patched by Mike Wieder  https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798 <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798> awaiting a GitHub merge, but turning on delayTouches makes the swipe animation jerky because the scroller has to decide if it?s scrolling first so the swipe controls aren?t very responsive. Would be curious if these two things can live in harmony. Any DG2 advice?
> 
> That's actually Mike Kerner's fix. I just added a comment. Or two.
> Trying to prioritize getting it looked at.
> 
> -- 
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 



From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Thu Aug 27 15:57:02 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:57:02 -0400
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <180af75a5ae85ab387320ac216771f78@livecode.com>
References: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e@sonic.net>
 <CADCoycMAp5JN_dC35FeasTC0YS_hoPZ2ayBcaNSHM2PH6hK4CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <180af75a5ae85ab387320ac216771f78@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycNjkkecR56s9EhpjmeEjwsR9J_6GbrpNdvHL4CidR1jYw@mail.gmail.com>

Don't be telling me about "well structured commit titles".  There is
nothing clear in that title, unless British is your first language, and
English is your second, and in British we add an "s" on the ends of every
singulars nouns, and peoples speak with a lisps.
In the meantime(s), setting the delayTouches to false(s) on a DG(s) breaks
scrolling(s), thus my PR(s), from however-long-ago it(s) was. :-P
Tag.  You(s)'re it(s)

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 2:17 PM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2020-08-27 17:07, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:
> > name's mikey.  y'all can call me...
> > mikey
> >
> > howdy.
> >
> > i think it was just one line of code, too, right?  it was just a matter
> > of
> > setting the delayTouches to true.  i have no idea why it was originally
> > "false".
>
> Well, the advantage of generally trying to make sure all substantive
> changes made to the source have well structured commit titles and decent
> descriptions in the body means its easy to find out by grokking `git
> log` :D
>
> It was changed precisely because of the issues Andrew pointed out with
> DG2, specifically in this commit:
>
> commit ac1beee1dd113e203b6715fe472cf2fa88656bd5
> Author: Michael McCreary <michael.mccreary at runrev.com>
> Date:   Thu Dec 21 12:49:26 2017 +0000
>
>      [[ DataGrid 2 ]] Fix drags to cooperate with the mobile scroller.
>
>      Previously, a data grid's mobile scroller was getting in the way of
>      reorder and swipe actions.
>
>      To fix for reordering, we disable the scroller whenn the user clicks
>      on a reorder control (and re-enable it when the reorder completes).
>
>      Swipes are a little trickier. We track dragging on mouse down, but
>      disabling the scroller at this point will prevent all scrolling.
>      Instead we attempt to determine if the user is trying to drag the
>      row before disabling the scroller.
>
> I'd need to do some more digging to see if the highlight on touch has
> actually been caused by something else since  as I don't recall it being
> an issue, or noticed when DG2 debuted - but I could be wrong. Especially
> more since Android has never had a delayTouches mode.
>
> Either this problem also affects Android, which means turning
> delayTouches on is not really an option (given the negative consequences
> to DG2 behavior); or it doesn't affect Android in which case something
> else has changed (potentially in the iOS scroller control itself).
>
> I suspect we will just need a short timer on mouse down so that it only
> triggers a highlight *if* a scroll message isn't received within the
> interval of the timer.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From e.beugelaar at me.com  Thu Aug 27 16:07:30 2020
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 22:07:30 +0200
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <f8b56d7f-11e3-def2-53a0-a52fbde93e2a@gmail.com>
References: <3217A791-D11F-4B93-8C3A-7740FAEEB0C5@pidigital.co.uk>
 <74CCCB74-E143-47E9-8C34-5B4F0E8B3672@pidigital.co.uk>
 <f8b56d7f-11e3-def2-53a0-a52fbde93e2a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0a1d01d67cad$b3313020$19939060$@me.com>

In my opinion the only HTML5 visual development tool which comes close to cross-platform development dealing with a solid rendering  is Sencha Touch (Architect) but you need to learn ExtAngular or ExtReact and
It is pricey. And every tool has his pros and cons so also this one.

Just my two cents in this difficult thread.


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode
Sent: zaterdag 15 augustus 2020 17:03
To: Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: JeeJeeStudio <jeejeestudio at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Layers in PBrowser

Maybe switch over in time to ReactNative and Node.js using JavaScript?

I'm exploring these, cause it runs also on muliple platform, though there we're not as spoiled as with Livecode, but I guess most things are in your own hand then.

First thing i see is the almost instantly change you get to see on for example the Android Emulator. So it's more a website which one writes and runs almost everywhere with some extra functions.

Well a lot to learun for me (don't want to hijack this thread but maybe as an alternative, cause i saw on your website you do also JavaScript)

Op 15-8-2020 om 09:49 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
> I give up :(
>
> Sean
>>
>>> On 15 Aug 2020, at 08:41, Pi Digital <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?What make you say I will? iChat reason for I have to Trust what you say. There is NO WAY there have been no bugs in the software unless it?s perfect. The fact there is only 16 bugs listed under LCFM tells a massive story that no one is effing using it. The forums are empty other than people on the FM one saying it?s not worth bothering with - unless you can point me to crap load that says otherwise  There is NO WAY that people are using it and not asking question about how to use it unless ALL ATTENTION of the LC team has been drawn away to it to the detriment of everyone else in this community meaning that the other things have effectively become abandonware. There is literally No Evidence to back up your optimistic claims of fortitude. PLEASE prove me wrong, I beg of you! Heather has done a shed load of Blog posts on the LCFM site and NOTHING on the standard LC site! HTML5 Deployment, which i am completely dependent on except for a few other little projects here and there, is simply not being worked on despite several reassurances from the mothership it ?would? be worked on. PLEASE, prove me wrong!! Because at the moment it has left me REALLY peaved off that the only thing they have fixed is the frikin delete key when none of the other modifier keys, arrow keys, escape key, copy paste, or other simple tings have been done. In over six months since I was sat at a table with Ian from LC and literally showed him face to face the issues with it.
>>>
>>> With respect, from experience, anyone who says ?some day you will? is full of crap (like some 3yr old shaking his fist at you)! Empty words. Show me the evidence. I?ve dug deep and find nothing.
>>>
>>> Sean Cole
>>> Pi Digital Productions Ltd
>>>
>>>
>>> eMail Ts & Cs
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> On 15 Aug 2020, at 04:45, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>> ?On August 14, 2020 8:10:59 PM "Sean Cole \(Pi\) via use-livecode" <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Oh, just to summarize the issue:
>>>>> https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=lcfm
>>>> I'd hardly call 16 bugs "abandonware". They've fixed far more than that. LCFM is important. I know you don't believe it, but some day I think you will.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive 
>>>> Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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From mkoob at rogers.com  Thu Aug 27 16:12:09 2020
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:12:09 -0400
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycNjkkecR56s9EhpjmeEjwsR9J_6GbrpNdvHL4CidR1jYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e@sonic.net>
 <CADCoycMAp5JN_dC35FeasTC0YS_hoPZ2ayBcaNSHM2PH6hK4CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <180af75a5ae85ab387320ac216771f78@livecode.com>
 <CADCoycNjkkecR56s9EhpjmeEjwsR9J_6GbrpNdvHL4CidR1jYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3C41285-B581-4739-8D38-B7C19D01F30E@rogers.com>

I thought it was only former hobbitses with powerful rings that talked that way.

Martin
 
> On Aug 27, 2020, at 3:57 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> in British we add an "s" on the ends of every
> singulars nouns, and peoples speak with a lisps.



From mark at livecode.com  Thu Aug 27 16:23:51 2020
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 21:23:51 +0100
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycNjkkecR56s9EhpjmeEjwsR9J_6GbrpNdvHL4CidR1jYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADCoycNjkkecR56s9EhpjmeEjwsR9J_6GbrpNdvHL4CidR1jYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CA266C3-52BC-435B-87EA-CE600C314200@livecode.com>

Heh - well I said ?well structured? not ?literary?...

Although that being said, the ?singular? noun ?drag? has a plural and I believe it is ?drags?... 

e.g. ?It took several drags of her long fingernails down the blackboard to make the class pay attention? ;)

If your fix works for you - great...

Unfortunately it breaks some functionality for others so isn?t mergeable as it stands.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Aug 2020, at 20:58, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Don't be telling me about "well structured commit titles".  There is
> nothing clear in that title, unless British is your first language, and
> English is your second, and in British we add an "s" on the ends of every
> singulars nouns, and peoples speak with a lisps.
> In the meantime(s), setting the delayTouches to false(s) on a DG(s) breaks
> scrolling(s), thus my PR(s), from however-long-ago it(s) was. :-P
> Tag.  You(s)'re it(s)
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 2:17 PM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2020-08-27 17:07, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:
>>> name's mikey.  y'all can call me...
>>> mikey
>>> 
>>> howdy.
>>> 
>>> i think it was just one line of code, too, right?  it was just a matter
>>> of
>>> setting the delayTouches to true.  i have no idea why it was originally
>>> "false".
>> 
>> Well, the advantage of generally trying to make sure all substantive
>> changes made to the source have well structured commit titles and decent
>> descriptions in the body means its easy to find out by grokking `git
>> log` :D
>> 
>> It was changed precisely because of the issues Andrew pointed out with
>> DG2, specifically in this commit:
>> 
>> commit ac1beee1dd113e203b6715fe472cf2fa88656bd5
>> Author: Michael McCreary <michael.mccreary at runrev.com>
>> Date:   Thu Dec 21 12:49:26 2017 +0000
>> 
>>     [[ DataGrid 2 ]] Fix drags to cooperate with the mobile scroller.
>> 
>>     Previously, a data grid's mobile scroller was getting in the way of
>>     reorder and swipe actions.
>> 
>>     To fix for reordering, we disable the scroller whenn the user clicks
>>     on a reorder control (and re-enable it when the reorder completes).
>> 
>>     Swipes are a little trickier. We track dragging on mouse down, but
>>     disabling the scroller at this point will prevent all scrolling.
>>     Instead we attempt to determine if the user is trying to drag the
>>     row before disabling the scroller.
>> 
>> I'd need to do some more digging to see if the highlight on touch has
>> actually been caused by something else since  as I don't recall it being
>> an issue, or noticed when DG2 debuted - but I could be wrong. Especially
>> more since Android has never had a delayTouches mode.
>> 
>> Either this problem also affects Android, which means turning
>> delayTouches on is not really an option (given the negative consequences
>> to DG2 behavior); or it doesn't affect Android in which case something
>> else has changed (potentially in the iOS scroller control itself).
>> 
>> I suspect we will just need a short timer on mouse down so that it only
>> triggers a highlight *if* a scroll message isn't received within the
>> interval of the timer.
>> 
>> Warmest Regards,
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> --
>> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
>> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jeejeestudio at gmail.com  Thu Aug 27 16:32:08 2020
From: jeejeestudio at gmail.com (JeeJeeStudio)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 22:32:08 +0200
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <BE000681-264E-4C76-B75A-538F2325A4BF@midwestcoastmedia.com>
References: <mailman.1.1598544001.446970.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <BE000681-264E-4C76-B75A-538F2325A4BF@midwestcoastmedia.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqiJnnUgcg5R3RE90WuGmBoxfad5rh3fNSpCyResHty5+gE4A@mail.gmail.com>

you have to check the bug quality site for that and search for the DG2
I know there was a fix for the ID thingy, if i understand correctly what
you ask.
because if i remember correct the ID created by the dg scroller was not
'detectable'
But to be sure on it check the quality site or one of the releasenotes when
the DG2 came out

Op do 27 aug. 2020 om 21:58 schreef Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:

> My apologies to Mike AND Mark on the misquote, and *bump* to this bug. I
> had too many QC tabs open for bugs, am I right? ;)
>
> Is there a way to send a mobileControlSet ?delayTouches? command to the
> scroller created? I wasn?t sure how to get the ID since the DataGrid code
> made the scroller.
>
> -Andrew Bell
>
> >
> > Subject: Re: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
> > Message-ID: <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e at sonic.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >
> > On 8/26/20 9:36 PM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode wrote:
> >
> >> The highlighted row when scrolling is a separate bug patched by Mike
> Wieder  https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798 <
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798> awaiting a GitHub
> merge, but turning on delayTouches makes the swipe animation jerky because
> the scroller has to decide if it?s scrolling first so the swipe controls
> aren?t very responsive. Would be curious if these two things can live in
> harmony. Any DG2 advice?
> >
> > That's actually Mike Kerner's fix. I just added a comment. Or two.
> > Trying to prioritize getting it looked at.
> >
> > --
> >  Mark Wieder
> >  ahsoftware at gmail.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Thu Aug 27 17:20:40 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:20:40 -0400
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <CAEqiJnnUgcg5R3RE90WuGmBoxfad5rh3fNSpCyResHty5+gE4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1598544001.446970.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <BE000681-264E-4C76-B75A-538F2325A4BF@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <CAEqiJnnUgcg5R3RE90WuGmBoxfad5rh3fNSpCyResHty5+gE4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycNsdBBhEcZXMcxJC2iFDM=Ac=FfyWUgoiy34R146fUVOA@mail.gmail.com>

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798
i submitted a PR as well.
If you do a Show Package Contents on the LC binary, then navigate to
Content->Tools->/Toolset->palettes->revdatagridlibrary
and open "behaviorsdatagridbuttonbehavior.livecodescript"
change line 371 to
mobileControlSet sScrollerId, "delayTouches", "true"


On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 4:33 PM JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> you have to check the bug quality site for that and search for the DG2
> I know there was a fix for the ID thingy, if i understand correctly what
> you ask.
> because if i remember correct the ID created by the dg scroller was not
> 'detectable'
> But to be sure on it check the quality site or one of the releasenotes when
> the DG2 came out
>
> Op do 27 aug. 2020 om 21:58 schreef Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via
> use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>
> > My apologies to Mike AND Mark on the misquote, and *bump* to this bug. I
> > had too many QC tabs open for bugs, am I right? ;)
> >
> > Is there a way to send a mobileControlSet ?delayTouches? command to the
> > scroller created? I wasn?t sure how to get the ID since the DataGrid code
> > made the scroller.
> >
> > -Andrew Bell
> >
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
> > > Message-ID: <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e at sonic.net>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> > >
> > > On 8/26/20 9:36 PM, Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> The highlighted row when scrolling is a separate bug patched by Mike
> > Wieder  https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798 <
> > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22798> awaiting a GitHub
> > merge, but turning on delayTouches makes the swipe animation jerky
> because
> > the scroller has to decide if it?s scrolling first so the swipe controls
> > aren?t very responsive. Would be curious if these two things can live in
> > harmony. Any DG2 advice?
> > >
> > > That's actually Mike Kerner's fix. I just added a comment. Or two.
> > > Trying to prioritize getting it looked at.
> > >
> > > --
> > >  Mark Wieder
> > >  ahsoftware at gmail.com
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Thu Aug 27 21:53:35 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 21:53:35 -0400
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <4CA266C3-52BC-435B-87EA-CE600C314200@livecode.com>
References: <CADCoycNjkkecR56s9EhpjmeEjwsR9J_6GbrpNdvHL4CidR1jYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4CA266C3-52BC-435B-87EA-CE600C314200@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycN3YFWa-5zYtdEZ1tjsQKPLf8iT1Rnk23NaP4qfdZJswQ@mail.gmail.com>

are you sure that's a good idea?  michael's PR breaks mobile scrolling.
 i'm all ears on how mobile scrolling can work without delayTouches set to
true.

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 4:24 PM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Heh - well I said ?well structured? not ?literary?...
>
> Although that being said, the ?singular? noun ?drag? has a plural and I
> believe it is ?drags?...
>
> e.g. ?It took several drags of her long fingernails down the blackboard to
> make the class pay attention? ;)
>
> If your fix works for you - great...
>
> Unfortunately it breaks some functionality for others so isn?t mergeable
> as it stands.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 27 Aug 2020, at 20:58, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?Don't be telling me about "well structured commit titles".  There is
> > nothing clear in that title, unless British is your first language, and
> > English is your second, and in British we add an "s" on the ends of every
> > singulars nouns, and peoples speak with a lisps.
> > In the meantime(s), setting the delayTouches to false(s) on a DG(s)
> breaks
> > scrolling(s), thus my PR(s), from however-long-ago it(s) was. :-P
> > Tag.  You(s)'re it(s)
> >
> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 2:17 PM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2020-08-27 17:07, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:
> >>> name's mikey.  y'all can call me...
> >>> mikey
> >>>
> >>> howdy.
> >>>
> >>> i think it was just one line of code, too, right?  it was just a matter
> >>> of
> >>> setting the delayTouches to true.  i have no idea why it was originally
> >>> "false".
> >>
> >> Well, the advantage of generally trying to make sure all substantive
> >> changes made to the source have well structured commit titles and decent
> >> descriptions in the body means its easy to find out by grokking `git
> >> log` :D
> >>
> >> It was changed precisely because of the issues Andrew pointed out with
> >> DG2, specifically in this commit:
> >>
> >> commit ac1beee1dd113e203b6715fe472cf2fa88656bd5
> >> Author: Michael McCreary <michael.mccreary at runrev.com>
> >> Date:   Thu Dec 21 12:49:26 2017 +0000
> >>
> >>     [[ DataGrid 2 ]] Fix drags to cooperate with the mobile scroller.
> >>
> >>     Previously, a data grid's mobile scroller was getting in the way of
> >>     reorder and swipe actions.
> >>
> >>     To fix for reordering, we disable the scroller whenn the user clicks
> >>     on a reorder control (and re-enable it when the reorder completes).
> >>
> >>     Swipes are a little trickier. We track dragging on mouse down, but
> >>     disabling the scroller at this point will prevent all scrolling.
> >>     Instead we attempt to determine if the user is trying to drag the
> >>     row before disabling the scroller.
> >>
> >> I'd need to do some more digging to see if the highlight on touch has
> >> actually been caused by something else since  as I don't recall it being
> >> an issue, or noticed when DG2 debuted - but I could be wrong. Especially
> >> more since Android has never had a delayTouches mode.
> >>
> >> Either this problem also affects Android, which means turning
> >> delayTouches on is not really an option (given the negative consequences
> >> to DG2 behavior); or it doesn't affect Android in which case something
> >> else has changed (potentially in the iOS scroller control itself).
> >>
> >> I suspect we will just need a short timer on mouse down so that it only
> >> triggers a highlight *if* a scroll message isn't received within the
> >> interval of the timer.
> >>
> >> Warmest Regards,
> >>
> >> Mark.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> >> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> >   and did a little diving.
> > And God said, "This is good."
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From mkoob at rogers.com  Fri Aug 28 00:30:11 2020
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 00:30:11 -0400
Subject: oAuth2 seems to log in successfully but the oAuth2 dialog/browser
 does not disappear, have to click  cancel
References: <D0361313-3A45-4D58-B82C-652E40415282.ref@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <D0361313-3A45-4D58-B82C-652E40415282@rogers.com>

Hi 

In my project to make a library for connecting to an LMS I am trying to use oAuth2 to authorize with a Brightspace LMS  instance from a Mac Desktop App.   The oAuth2 dialog/browser appears I enter the credentials and then the login appears to succeed i.e. the LMS's home page opens in the dialog/browser.  However the dialog does not  close so I have to click the ?Cancel? button.  So the result returned by the oAuth2 command is ?cancel? and there is nothing in the ?it? variable.

My redirect URI is https://127.0.0.1:54256 <https://127.0.0.1:54256/>.  The LMS service requires https.  LiveCode?s oAuth only allows http for the redirect URI.  Could that be the issue?

My guess is that once a response is received at the redirect URI then LiveCode?s oAuth2 dialog would close. 
Then the value of the token would be in the ?it? variable.
Is that the case?

The other issue may be that I don?t have the correct token URL parameter for the oAuth2 command.  I am still checking into that.

Any suggestions on how to get this working?

Martin Koob

VideoLinkwell, a service of
Koob SourceText Solutions Inc.






From marksmithhfx at gmail.com  Fri Aug 28 05:08:16 2020
From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 10:08:16 +0100
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <180af75a5ae85ab387320ac216771f78@livecode.com>
References: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e@sonic.net>
 <CADCoycMAp5JN_dC35FeasTC0YS_hoPZ2ayBcaNSHM2PH6hK4CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <180af75a5ae85ab387320ac216771f78@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <E8BFE607-2BA4-488E-9364-848CA77F8068@gmail.com>

Is there not a way to just disable the scrollbar (hide it?) and still have scrolling enabled? I am trying to do something similar in iOS and thought I would try:

set the dgprop["show vscrollbar"] of group "Datagrid 1" to false
set the dgProp["scroll when vscrollbar is hidden"] of group "DataGrid 1" to true

And while it worked as desired in the development environment and when compiling to macOS (by hiding the scrollbar and allowing swipes to scroll the list), when compiled to iOS no scrolling was possible at all?

Mark
 

> On Aug 27, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>    Previously, a data grid's mobile scroller was getting in the way of
>    reorder and swipe actions.



From brian at milby7.com  Fri Aug 28 09:37:15 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 09:37:15 -0400
Subject: oAuth2 seems to log in successfully but the oAuth2 dialog/browser
 does not disappear, have to click  cancel
In-Reply-To: <D0361313-3A45-4D58-B82C-652E40415282@rogers.com>
References: <D0361313-3A45-4D58-B82C-652E40415282@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <F866730E-BE28-40CF-A732-B7447041E673@milby7.com>

The way the library works is that it sets up a listener on the IP/port.  It does not have any way to handle an encrypted (https) response/connection currently (and I?m not sure how that would even be implemented).

The code that handles the response is what closes the browser window that was created.  If it is not getting closed, then the response isn?t coming through.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 28, 2020, at 12:31 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Hi 
> 
> In my project to make a library for connecting to an LMS I am trying to use oAuth2 to authorize with a Brightspace LMS  instance from a Mac Desktop App.   The oAuth2 dialog/browser appears I enter the credentials and then the login appears to succeed i.e. the LMS's home page opens in the dialog/browser.  However the dialog does not  close so I have to click the ?Cancel? button.  So the result returned by the oAuth2 command is ?cancel? and there is nothing in the ?it? variable.
> 
> My redirect URI is https://127.0.0.1:54256 <https://127.0.0.1:54256/>.  The LMS service requires https.  LiveCode?s oAuth only allows http for the redirect URI.  Could that be the issue?
> 
> My guess is that once a response is received at the redirect URI then LiveCode?s oAuth2 dialog would close. 
> Then the value of the token would be in the ?it? variable.
> Is that the case?
> 
> The other issue may be that I don?t have the correct token URL parameter for the oAuth2 command.  I am still checking into that.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to get this working?
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> VideoLinkwell, a service of
> Koob SourceText Solutions Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From brian at milby7.com  Fri Aug 28 10:27:26 2020
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 10:27:26 -0400
Subject: oAuth2 seems to log in successfully but the oAuth2 dialog/browser
 does not disappear, have to click  cancel
In-Reply-To: <F866730E-BE28-40CF-A732-B7447041E673@milby7.com>
References: <F866730E-BE28-40CF-A732-B7447041E673@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <91E51832-BB0D-4873-B6CB-E24C081E27DA@milby7.com>

Looking at the RFC8252 Section 7.3, it is proper for the loopback network interface to use HTTP.  Is it expecting PKCE (rfc7636)?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 28, 2020, at 9:37 AM, Brian Milby <brian at milby7.com> wrote:
> 
> ?The way the library works is that it sets up a listener on the IP/port.  It does not have any way to handle an encrypted (https) response/connection currently (and I?m not sure how that would even be implemented).
> 
> The code that handles the response is what closes the browser window that was created.  If it is not getting closed, then the response isn?t coming through.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 28, 2020, at 12:31 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Hi 
>> 
>> In my project to make a library for connecting to an LMS I am trying to use oAuth2 to authorize with a Brightspace LMS  instance from a Mac Desktop App.   The oAuth2 dialog/browser appears I enter the credentials and then the login appears to succeed i.e. the LMS's home page opens in the dialog/browser.  However the dialog does not  close so I have to click the ?Cancel? button.  So the result returned by the oAuth2 command is ?cancel? and there is nothing in the ?it? variable.
>> 
>> My redirect URI is https://127.0.0.1:54256 <https://127.0.0.1:54256/>.  The LMS service requires https.  LiveCode?s oAuth only allows http for the redirect URI.  Could that be the issue?
>> 
>> My guess is that once a response is received at the redirect URI then LiveCode?s oAuth2 dialog would close. 
>> Then the value of the token would be in the ?it? variable.
>> Is that the case?
>> 
>> The other issue may be that I don?t have the correct token URL parameter for the oAuth2 command.  I am still checking into that.
>> 
>> Any suggestions on how to get this working?
>> 
>> Martin Koob
>> 
>> VideoLinkwell, a service of
>> Koob SourceText Solutions Inc.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From mkoob at rogers.com  Fri Aug 28 10:33:56 2020
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 10:33:56 -0400
Subject: oAuth2 seems to log in successfully but the oAuth2 dialog/browser
 does not disappear, have to click  cancel
In-Reply-To: <F866730E-BE28-40CF-A732-B7447041E673@milby7.com>
References: <D0361313-3A45-4D58-B82C-652E40415282@rogers.com>
 <F866730E-BE28-40CF-A732-B7447041E673@milby7.com>
Message-ID: <C35A24D0-146D-416E-B369-11B29B99A413@rogers.com>

Hi Brian

Thanks for the explanation of the process.  That seems to be what is happening.  I assume that the difficulty implementing it is that the native app would not have a recognized SSL certificate for the https connection.  Is that right?

I don?t fully understand the oAuth2 process so this is an uneducated workaround idea so please excuse me if the following idea/question is totally off base. 

If the application was not a native Desktop app but a web app would requiring an https redirect URI not be a problem since the website  site the web app was hosted on could have a SSL certificate so you could have a https redirect URI?

 My application has a cloud backend API written in LiveCode server.  The site  has an SSL certificate so https URIs could point to it.  
- If I had to use an https redirect URI could it point to my website and then have the listener there?  There still would need to be a way to identify the user?s request with the server?s response and I am not sure how that would work.

- could I make a HTML5 standalone in LiveCode server on my cloud site. backend that I would open in a browser window in the desktop that would then, on loading, just  connect to the oAuth2 URI where the user would enter their credentials, The authorization would take place between the HTML5 app and the oAuth2 site with the URI being the on my cloud site.   Then the token could be returned to the native app from the HTML5 app.

Again these questions are based on a limited understanding of how this kind of authorization works so don?t laugh too hard. ;-)

Martin



> On Aug 28, 2020, at 9:37 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> The way the library works is that it sets up a listener on the IP/port.  It does not have any way to handle an encrypted (https) response/connection currently (and I?m not sure how that would even be implemented).
> 
> The code that handles the response is what closes the browser window that was created.  If it is not getting closed, then the response isn?t coming through.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 28, 2020, at 12:31 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Hi 
>> 
>> In my project to make a library for connecting to an LMS I am trying to use oAuth2 to authorize with a Brightspace LMS  instance from a Mac Desktop App.   The oAuth2 dialog/browser appears I enter the credentials and then the login appears to succeed i.e. the LMS's home page opens in the dialog/browser.  However the dialog does not  close so I have to click the ?Cancel? button.  So the result returned by the oAuth2 command is ?cancel? and there is nothing in the ?it? variable.
>> 
>> My redirect URI is https://127.0.0.1:54256 <https://127.0.0.1:54256/>.  The LMS service requires https.  LiveCode?s oAuth only allows http for the redirect URI.  Could that be the issue?
>> 
>> My guess is that once a response is received at the redirect URI then LiveCode?s oAuth2 dialog would close. 
>> Then the value of the token would be in the ?it? variable.
>> Is that the case?
>> 
>> The other issue may be that I don?t have the correct token URL parameter for the oAuth2 command.  I am still checking into that.
>> 
>> Any suggestions on how to get this working?
>> 
>> Martin Koob
>> 
>> VideoLinkwell, a service of
>> Koob SourceText Solutions Inc.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Fri Aug 28 10:59:32 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 07:59:32 -0700
Subject: ...and now for something completely off the wall...
Message-ID: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>

Almost every article on the Scots version of Wikipedia is written by one 
American teenager who can't speak Scots

"A veelage is a clustered human settlement or community, larger than a 
hamlet but smawer than a toun, wi a population rangin frae a few hunder 
tae a few thoosand (sometimes tens o thoosands)."

https://boingboing.net/2020/08/27/almost-every-article-on-the-sc.html
https://www.scotslanguage.com/news/5724

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Aug 28 11:54:29 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:54:29 +0000
Subject: ...and now for something completely off the wall...
In-Reply-To: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>
References: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <B9781466-EE9C-465E-A331-E99D8EB0E72D@iotecdigital.com>

?

> On Aug 28, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Almost every article on the Scots version of Wikipedia is written by one American teenager who can't speak Scots
> 
> "A veelage is a clustered human settlement or community, larger than a hamlet but smawer than a toun, wi a population rangin frae a few hunder tae a few thoosand (sometimes tens o thoosands)."
> 
> https://boingboing.net/2020/08/27/almost-every-article-on-the-sc.html
> https://www.scotslanguage.com/news/5724
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Fri Aug 28 12:05:24 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 19:05:24 +0300
Subject: ...and now for something completely off the wall...
In-Reply-To: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>
References: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <8912b9c8-03dc-3134-712a-5db30e1f4890@gmail.com>

"this person has possibly done more damage to the Scots language than 
anyone else in history. They engaged in cultural vandalism on a hitherto 
unprecedented scale. Wikipedia is one of the most visited websites in 
the world. Potentially tens of millions of people now think that Scots 
is a horribly mangled rendering of English rather than being a language 
or dialect of its own, all because they were exposed to a mangled 
rendering of English being called Scots by this person and by this 
person alone"

Indeed.

On 28.08.20 17:59, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> Almost every article on the Scots version of Wikipedia is written by 
> one American teenager who can't speak Scots
>
> "A veelage is a clustered human settlement or community, larger than a 
> hamlet but smawer than a toun, wi a population rangin frae a few 
> hunder tae a few thoosand (sometimes tens o thoosands)."
>
> https://boingboing.net/2020/08/27/almost-every-article-on-the-sc.html
> https://www.scotslanguage.com/news/5724
>



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Fri Aug 28 12:09:41 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 19:09:41 +0300
Subject: ...and now for something completely off the wall...
In-Reply-To: <B9781466-EE9C-465E-A331-E99D8EB0E72D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>
 <B9781466-EE9C-465E-A331-E99D8EB0E72D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <d27638df-1d44-853e-29de-2300b7593345@gmail.com>

Well, I suppose it is funny: about as funny as pointing out to those 
people in Utah who spawned this idiot that
undder Scots law as a citizen of a Scottish colony whose indepndence is 
only de facto under Scots law he should
suffer the death sentence for treason: drawing and quartering.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/BNMsFr2643FroissartFol97vExecHughDespenser.jpg

On 28.08.20 18:54, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> ?
>
>> On Aug 28, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Almost every article on the Scots version of Wikipedia is written by one American teenager who can't speak Scots
>>
>> "A veelage is a clustered human settlement or community, larger than a hamlet but smawer than a toun, wi a population rangin frae a few hunder tae a few thoosand (sometimes tens o thoosands)."
>>
>> https://boingboing.net/2020/08/27/almost-every-article-on-the-sc.html
>> https://www.scotslanguage.com/news/5724
>>
>> -- 
>> Mark Wieder
>> ahsoftware at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Aug 28 12:38:15 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 16:38:15 +0000
Subject: ...and now for something completely off the wall...
In-Reply-To: <8912b9c8-03dc-3134-712a-5db30e1f4890@gmail.com>
References: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>
 <8912b9c8-03dc-3134-712a-5db30e1f4890@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <811F8D5E-6C00-44D7-9F12-F999488B7F7B@iotecdigital.com>

I was under the impression that the latter was the case on account of the former. ;-)

Bob S


On Aug 28, 2020, at 9:05 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Potentially tens of millions of people now think that Scots is a horribly mangled rendering of English rather than being a language or dialect of its own



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Aug 28 12:44:46 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 16:44:46 +0000
Subject: ...and now for something completely off the wall...
In-Reply-To: <d27638df-1d44-853e-29de-2300b7593345@gmail.com>
References: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>
 <B9781466-EE9C-465E-A331-E99D8EB0E72D@iotecdigital.com>
 <d27638df-1d44-853e-29de-2300b7593345@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <827CEE4B-6195-450D-B794-0587C82C8C99@iotecdigital.com>

If the painting is any indication of a real event, the Scots would be well advised to build their bon fires a wee bit further from the wooden ladders they are torturing their victims on. :-)

Bob S


> On Aug 28, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Well, I suppose it is funny: about as funny as pointing out to those people in Utah who spawned this idiot that
> undder Scots law as a citizen of a Scottish colony whose indepndence is only de facto under Scots law he should
> suffer the death sentence for treason: drawing and quartering.
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/BNMsFr2643FroissartFol97vExecHughDespenser.jpg
> 
> On 28.08.20 18:54, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
>> ?
>> 
>>> On Aug 28, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Almost every article on the Scots version of Wikipedia is written by one American teenager who can't speak Scots
>>> 
>>> "A veelage is a clustered human settlement or community, larger than a hamlet but smawer than a toun, wi a population rangin frae a few hunder tae a few thoosand (sometimes tens o thoosands)."
>>> 
>>> https://boingboing.net/2020/08/27/almost-every-article-on-the-sc.html
>>> https://www.scotslanguage.com/news/5724
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Mark Wieder
>>> ahsoftware at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Fri Aug 28 14:00:05 2020
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 13:00:05 -0500
Subject: Shoudl LiveCode be calling exit() when terminating a Cocoa app?
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG9Y89yhF+zoEih_P8Z0eiFt3ZLsBjykx3JHWmNds1vN4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

This is probably a question for someone from the LC team who works on the
engine. If anyone else is familiar with how LC quits on macOS please chime
in though.

Scenario: I am running tests with the Sparkle.framework on macOS (which I
already use) with the goal of silently and automatically downloading
updates for an application that will be installed the next time the user
quits the application. You can see similar behavior in apps such as Slack.

Sparkle support: Sparkle supports this type of behavior if you set some
properties. It checks and downloads an update to the local cache and then
installs the update when the hosting app graceful terminates.

Problem: I have confirmed that Sparkle downloads the updates to the cache
but the update is never installed when I quit. I'm wondering if this is due
to the use of exit(t_exit_code) in -applicationWillTerminate in mac-core.mm.

Additional Info: While researching the problem I found an issue in the
Sparkle Github project which had some interesting information in it. The
author of the issue mentions that the app terminates by calling exit(0):
https://github.com/sparkle-project/Sparkle/issues/1047#issuecomment-298029934

The maintainer says that Sparkle only supports graceful termination via
Cocoa notification:
https://github.com/sparkle-project/Sparkle/issues/1047#issuecomment-298041354

So I started looking through the LiveCode source code to see how LiveCode
terminates an app when `quit` is called in LiveCode Script. If found
mac-core.mm which has the main run loop which calls `[NSApp terminate:
self];` when it is time to quit:

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/engine/src/mac-core.mm#L360

That looks right. But farther down in applicationWillTerminate I found a
call to `exit(t_exit_code)`;

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/engine/src/mac-core.mm#L416

I'm wondering if that call to exit() is what is causing problems as my
understanding is that exit() immediately causes an app to terminate.
Perhaps exit() should only be called if t_exit_code > 0?

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Fri Aug 28 15:22:48 2020
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 22:22:48 +0300
Subject: ...and now for something completely off the wall...
In-Reply-To: <827CEE4B-6195-450D-B794-0587C82C8C99@iotecdigital.com>
References: <dafcefd2-3ac4-01cd-fb0d-e4a2ae635fc4@sonic.net>
 <B9781466-EE9C-465E-A331-E99D8EB0E72D@iotecdigital.com>
 <d27638df-1d44-853e-29de-2300b7593345@gmail.com>
 <827CEE4B-6195-450D-B794-0587C82C8C99@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <0d28b27f-9b58-8113-3498-0b3d295a3f3b@gmail.com>

Very droll: that's a load of Frenchies having fun.

On 28.08.20 19:44, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> If the painting is any indication of a real event, the Scots would be well advised to build their bon fires a wee bit further from the wooden ladders they are torturing their victims on. :-)
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Aug 28, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I suppose it is funny: about as funny as pointing out to those people in Utah who spawned this idiot that
>> undder Scots law as a citizen of a Scottish colony whose indepndence is only de facto under Scots law he should
>> suffer the death sentence for treason: drawing and quartering.
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/BNMsFr2643FroissartFol97vExecHughDespenser.jpg
>>
>> On 28.08.20 18:54, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
>>> ?
>>>
>>>> On Aug 28, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Almost every article on the Scots version of Wikipedia is written by one American teenager who can't speak Scots
>>>>
>>>> "A veelage is a clustered human settlement or community, larger than a hamlet but smawer than a toun, wi a population rangin frae a few hunder tae a few thoosand (sometimes tens o thoosands)."
>>>>
>>>> https://boingboing.net/2020/08/27/almost-every-article-on-the-sc.html
>>>> https://www.scotslanguage.com/news/5724
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Mark Wieder
>>>> ahsoftware at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From gcanyon at gmail.com  Sat Aug 29 03:54:56 2020
From: gcanyon at gmail.com (Geoff Canyon)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:54:56 +0700
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSQ737fN41=M-GwVLoYomG773CnUMu_HxgFw9V95hs5ZvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>
 <CABRqQSQ737fN41=M-GwVLoYomG773CnUMu_HxgFw9V95hs5ZvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKCLKtpm3R8zSLhgVJ5v6+6WqMQtWqyu5PC4JFEuBzu_RE7QTw@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Sean,

Late to the conversation because Navigator is a hobby, but: I've worked
*really* hard to make drag-and-drop relayering work properly.

I've implemented it almost from scratch something like five times over the
years, each time because I reached a dead end with the previous method (or
sometimes because I'd reached a dead end with the previous method of
implementing drag and drop.

Which is to say: drag and drop has a large number of special cases, and is
very hard to get right. Anyone attempting it has my sympathies.

*That* said, there are only a very small number of problematic use cases in
Navigator that I know of. If the latest (which has been out for some time
now) update of Navigator doesn't relayer the way you think it should, email
me directly and let me know.

gc

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:56 AM Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> @Matthias Rebbe <matthias at m-r-d.de>
>
> Were are just replacing issues with new issues. Just looked at the github
> for 'Navigator' only to see a heap of unresolved issues there too!
> https://github.com/gcanyon/navigator/issues
>
> This seriously sucks!
>
> Sean Cole
> *Pi Digital*
>
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:45, matthias rebbe via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Sean,
> >
> > my answer will not solve your problems with the Project Browser...
> > but did you already try Geoff Canyons Navigator
> >
> > https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator <
> >
> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/693e8792-fedc-482a-9940-e98f47b6ee1a
> > >
> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/kz3zqi4botzglgq/navigator.zip?dl=1 <
> >
> https://bowtie.mailbutler.io/tracking/hit/5524ddd4-763e-47f2-b835-0050b8a7fe6f/9596c7b6-a84d-40ae-96c9-b3578d222b9f
> > >
> >
> > Navigator allows also to "relayer" objects by dragging and there it even
> > works.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -
> > Matthias Rebbe
> > Life Is Too Short For Boring Code
> >
> > > Am 12.08.2020 um 19:42 schrieb Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> > >
> > > And when you are in a group editing mode, the layers in the Project
> > Browser
> > > are messed up beyond use. HOW?? Why has this STILL not been fixed since
> > > v6!!!! I'm just tired of asking. I'm stressed! Up against a deadline
> > > (Again). No budget to pay the ridiculous fees LC ask. And absolutely no
> > way
> > > out... again! It blows my mind how I keep putting myself in this
> > situation
> > > for LC to KEEP letting me down because of stupid dumb ass issues that
> > don't
> > > get fixed!
> > >
> > > Frustrated.
> > >
> > > Sean
> > >
> > > On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 18:29, Sean Cole (Pi) <sean at pidigital.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> Why is this still an issue? I find it so hard putting layers in the
> > right
> > >> order. It just gets me down when I have fast turnaround jobs that are
> > held
> > >> up because of STUPID frikin issues like this. Over and over again....
> > >>
> > >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakyg8bu8bdamhn/LayerControl.mov?dl=0
> > >>
> > >> LC would be brilliant if it wasn't so crap all the time.
> > >>
> > >> Sean Cole
> > >>
> > >> *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Sat Aug 29 19:23:07 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 19:23:07 -0400
Subject: DataGrid 2 swipe actions
In-Reply-To: <E8BFE607-2BA4-488E-9364-848CA77F8068@gmail.com>
References: <06936890-CDF2-4ED9-88FD-3C9F69A4066A@midwestcoastmedia.com>
 <166ab8a2-7e58-2303-4d72-f366960d903e@sonic.net>
 <CADCoycMAp5JN_dC35FeasTC0YS_hoPZ2ayBcaNSHM2PH6hK4CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <180af75a5ae85ab387320ac216771f78@livecode.com>
 <E8BFE607-2BA4-488E-9364-848CA77F8068@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycOi0u1wG4wHOT1JJ=i8SaT+ADzcEXguc9vwt7qCPVDsAQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think so.  The scroller is a separate native object that overlays
the rest of the interface.  On desktop, the scrolling is handled by the
object with the scrollbar.

On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 5:09 AM Mark Smith via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Is there not a way to just disable the scrollbar (hide it?) and still have
> scrolling enabled? I am trying to do something similar in iOS and thought I
> would try:
>
> set the dgprop["show vscrollbar"] of group "Datagrid 1" to false
> set the dgProp["scroll when vscrollbar is hidden"] of group "DataGrid 1"
> to true
>
> And while it worked as desired in the development environment and when
> compiling to macOS (by hiding the scrollbar and allowing swipes to scroll
> the list), when compiled to iOS no scrolling was possible at all?
>
> Mark
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >    Previously, a data grid's mobile scroller was getting in the way of
> >    reorder and swipe actions.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Aug 31 11:07:53 2020
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:07:53 +0000
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <CAKCLKtpm3R8zSLhgVJ5v6+6WqMQtWqyu5PC4JFEuBzu_RE7QTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>
 <CABRqQSQ737fN41=M-GwVLoYomG773CnUMu_HxgFw9V95hs5ZvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKCLKtpm3R8zSLhgVJ5v6+6WqMQtWqyu5PC4JFEuBzu_RE7QTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AEB14295-34B1-49C7-8444-AE14F98C762E@iotecdigital.com>

Hi Sean. I concur with Geoff. There were quite a while ago issues, but Geoff got on them and now I use Navigator all the time. The only thing I will say Geoff is that when I drag the window to a location, I would like it to remain there, even when minimized. It always reverts to a default location when first opened, which happens to overlap the GLX2 bar.

Bob S


On Aug 29, 2020, at 12:54 AM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Hey Sean,

Late to the conversation because Navigator is a hobby, but: I've worked
*really* hard to make drag-and-drop relayering work properly.

I've implemented it almost from scratch something like five times over the
years, each time because I reached a dead end with the previous method (or
sometimes because I'd reached a dead end with the previous method of
implementing drag and drop.

Which is to say: drag and drop has a large number of special cases, and is
very hard to get right. Anyone attempting it has my sympathies.

*That* said, there are only a very small number of problematic use cases in
Navigator that I know of. If the latest (which has been out for some time
now) update of Navigator doesn't relayer the way you think it should, email
me directly and let me know.

gc



From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Mon Aug 31 13:26:22 2020
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:26:22 -0400
Subject: Layers in PBrowser
In-Reply-To: <AEB14295-34B1-49C7-8444-AE14F98C762E@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CABRqQSSvPXufXXu3FKCq90925NnGgAAMKUD3rg+zCq9agMn8ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABRqQSTC3Luo1oZxqweFonX2mO0mf7cOaP1rNXy_MCBZPaK3hA@mail.gmail.com>
 <61B78F95-54CA-4A1D-9114-6015676F998C@m-r-d.de>
 <CABRqQSQ737fN41=M-GwVLoYomG773CnUMu_HxgFw9V95hs5ZvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKCLKtpm3R8zSLhgVJ5v6+6WqMQtWqyu5PC4JFEuBzu_RE7QTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <AEB14295-34B1-49C7-8444-AE14F98C762E@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycMxP_QorWNrATUABO_LhEn0EK6GMtfvAGviX57Y6m+fug@mail.gmail.com>

The pb sucks.
however, HACKTOERFEST IS COMING!  Issue some PR's to fix the PB in
Hacktober, get some swag...


From tom at makeshyft.com  Mon Aug 31 22:07:13 2020
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 22:07:13 -0400
Subject: Hacktoberfest is coming
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycMZr5X_R=Ln_nYy24MYrMfXm611hkgN=H_stXuk6x6rMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADCoycMZr5X_R=Ln_nYy24MYrMfXm611hkgN=H_stXuk6x6rMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLf3rA9=6DQk3KsKtM-T-H9yqcevwxr7jMk6Vy1yGrNXw@mail.gmail.com>

This year I believe I will have time to participate. Thanks for the
reminder.

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 12:06 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> It's just over a month away, this year's Hacktoberfest
> If you have or know of a LC repo that would appreciate some love, please
> put it here, and let's see if we can get some folks involved in
> participating in making the LC universe a better place.
>
> In case you have no idea what I'm talking about, Hacktoberfest is an annual
> festival run on Github.  It rewards people who participate by submitting
> pull requests (usually 3) with some swag like t-shirts, stickers, etc.
>
> You have to sign up for it for your PR's to qualify.
> ANY PR to a public repo qualifies.  So, if you fix some LC documentation
> and submit a PR, it counts.  If you fix the way the datagrid handles
> scrolling on mobile, it counts.  If you add some badass feature to Levure,
> it counts.
>
> Please discuss, here, add a repo and/or an update that you would like to
> see to a particular repo (include a link to the repo), and let's see if we
> can get a bunch of LC Hackers, this year.
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>    and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Mobile:647.562.9411


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Aug 31 22:54:39 2020
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:54:39 -0700
Subject: Hacktoberfest is coming
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycMZr5X_R=Ln_nYy24MYrMfXm611hkgN=H_stXuk6x6rMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADCoycMZr5X_R=Ln_nYy24MYrMfXm611hkgN=H_stXuk6x6rMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0719d2f-c9a6-f3db-0167-82b1c3e1604b@sonic.net>

On 8/27/20 9:05 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:

> Please discuss, here, add a repo and/or an update that you would like to
> see to a particular repo (include a link to the repo), and let's see if we
> can get a bunch of LC Hackers, this year.
> 

Kind of an exercise in futility, though, no?
I submitted... let's see... (goes off and counts)... nine pull requests 
against LC last October (two for the engine, seven for the IDE) and 
they're still sitting in the hopper waiting to be reviewed.
Why bother "fixing" things when nobody's paying attention?

(the above is somewhat rhetorical since I just submitted another PR 
earlier today.. not that I expect any action on it)

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com