From paul at researchware.com  Tue Oct  1 08:58:12 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 08:58:12 -0400
Subject: Export snapshot and errors...
Message-ID: <86de263f-ed82-a87e-011e-9501431ae677@researchware.com>

In LC905rc1, the Dictionary entry for Export Snapshot does not appear to 
indicate how any error value is returned (for example if the file can 
not be written)

the result is not cleared after an export snapshot - i.e.

put the result into tTemp1 -- if this put "X" in tTemp1
export snapshot from this cd of stack "Images" to file tFile as PNG
put the result into tTemp2 -- the result is still "X"

So, does export snapshot return any error values. Shouldn't it? Is this 
a Documentation bug and there is some return value that is not 
documented or an Engine bug and if Export Snapshot encounters and error, 
it should return an error message in the result or empty in the result 
if successful?

Related: Anybody have a good tip to CLEAR "the result"? If you really 
want to be sure it is empty before calling something that may change it?



From paul at researchware.com  Tue Oct  1 09:02:41 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 09:02:41 -0400
Subject: Export snapshot and errors...
In-Reply-To: <86de263f-ed82-a87e-011e-9501431ae677@researchware.com>
References: <86de263f-ed82-a87e-011e-9501431ae677@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <7c14667e-8790-a789-c119-d66c4cc66f9b@researchware.com>

On 10/1/2019 8:58 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:
> In LC905rc1, the Dictionary entry for Export Snapshot does not appear 
> to indicate how any error value is returned (for example if the file 
> can not be written)
>
> the result is not cleared after an export snapshot - i.e.
>
> put the result into tTemp1 -- if this put "X" in tTemp1
> export snapshot from this cd of stack "Images" to file tFile as PNG
> put the result into tTemp2 -- the result is still "X"
>
> So, does export snapshot return any error values. Shouldn't it? Is 
> this a Documentation bug and there is some return value that is not 
> documented or an Engine bug and if Export Snapshot encounters and 
> error, it should return an error message in the result or empty in the 
> result if successful?
>
> Related: Anybody have a good tip to CLEAR "the result"? If you really 
> want to be sure it is empty before calling something that may change it?
>

Answer my own question on how to clear the result with:

command clearResult
 ? return empty for error
end clearResult



From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Tue Oct  1 09:26:21 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 09:26:21 -0400
Subject: Hactoberfest is coming...
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycMRt2npc-NGSxwrWGwPcp+XGF3WpanB_s02EdnHcKW-hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADCoycMGZPLLK6z_ukhbB1ZLJG_gSEqgYViB7OkqCBy8yUPB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <2675D335-17C1-44A8-988F-E71B1D6F5FDC@pidigital.co.uk>
 <CADCoycMRt2npc-NGSxwrWGwPcp+XGF3WpanB_s02EdnHcKW-hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycPMPYpG5f9zm459Jw9rJ_9yEoCpFoU_fQHg3OR7gO0_7g@mail.gmail.com>

Looking for ideas to add to a list that people can pick from.
The good news is that if you want a cheap PR to get you toward your
Hacktoberfest swag, instead of posting your idea here, you can update the
100% totally unofficial LC hacktoberfest repo here:
https://github.com/macMikey/lc-hacktoberfest

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 4:40 PM Mike Kerner <MikeKerner at roadrunner.com>
wrote:

> click on the "start hacking" button in the page and you can sign up.  i
> don't know what it will do for people who don't already have a github
> account, but here's what I got:
>
>
>
> [image: Hacktoberfest 2019]
>
>
>
> You?re officially registered for Hacktoberfest 2019! So we wanted to send
> you everything you?ll need to help you get started.
>
> A good place to dive in is our Details
> <https://hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com/details> page, which breaks down
> the fine print for this year?s event. We also put together a list of
> contribution ideas that may help spark some contribution ideas. If you?d
> like to link up with other local Hacktoberfest participants, have a look at
> our Events <https://hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com/events> page to see
> what?s happening near you. For common questions, take a look at our FAQs
> <https://hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com/faq>. And finally, check out the "Getting
> Started <https://dev.to/getting-started-with-hacktoberfest>" resource put
> together by our friends over at DEV <https://dev.to/>.
>
> As this year?s event kicks off, we hope you?ll spread the word about
> #Hacktoberfest across your social media channels!
>
> Happy Hacking,
> Team Hacktoberfest
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Was that response email for signing up to GitHub perhaps. The
>> Hacktoberfest site says everywhere I look:
>>
>> You can sign up anytime between October 1 and October 31.
>>
>> There are no links I can find to sign up to the fest yet, just a few
>> links to github which will ask you to sign in/up when it loads.
>>
>> Sean Cole
>> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>>
>> > On 26 Sep 2019, at 21:47, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?are you sure?  i registered 10 minutes before i posted that email and
>> > received a confirmation, so did i post the wrong link?
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 5:06 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode <
>> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Correction. You can only begin registering from 1st October according
>> to
>> >> the site.
>> >>
>> >> I?m going to be submitting a bunch of fixes and updates for HTML5
>> >> deployment to get it usable professionally again. But I have to weave
>> this
>> >> around my (barely) paid work developing a web app using the broken
>> version
>> >> (with the current workarounds which are enough for now).
>> >>
>> >> Sean Cole
>> >> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>> >>
>> >>> On 25 Sep 2019, at 21:05, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
>> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> ?The Hacktoberfest registration is now open:
>> >>> https://hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com
>> >>> <
>> >>
>> https://hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com/?utm_source=local&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Hacktoberfest2019
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Get registered and then between October 1, and 31, make 3 pull
>> requests
>> >> to
>> >>> projects housed on GitHub, and get your 2019 Hactoberfest swag!
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 12:43 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
>> >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just want to point out a good candidate for pull requests here. Ripe
>> for
>> >>>> some sample xtalk code:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://github.com/EricAlcaide/Rosetta_Project
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Mark Wieder
>> >>>> ahsoftware at gmail.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> use-livecode mailing list
>> >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> >>>> subscription preferences:
>> >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
>> >>> On the second day, God created the oceans.
>> >>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>> >>>  and did a little diving.
>> >>> And God said, "This is good."
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> use-livecode mailing list
>> >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> >> subscription preferences:
>> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> use-livecode mailing list
>> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> >> subscription preferences:
>> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
>> > On the second day, God created the oceans.
>> > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>> >   and did a little diving.
>> > And God said, "This is good."
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > use-livecode mailing list
>> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>    and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct  1 10:39:05 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:39:05 +0000
Subject: Export snapshot and errors...
In-Reply-To: <7c14667e-8790-a789-c119-d66c4cc66f9b@researchware.com>
References: <86de263f-ed82-a87e-011e-9501431ae677@researchware.com>
 <7c14667e-8790-a789-c119-d66c4cc66f9b@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <C08091E8-F354-42BC-B8E0-992EDB526330@iotecdigital.com>

Is the for error necessary? I just return empty. 

Bob S


> On Oct 1, 2019, at 06:02 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> command clearResult
>   return empty for error
> end clearResult




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct  1 10:54:34 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:54:34 +0000
Subject: Hactoberfest is coming...
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycPMPYpG5f9zm459Jw9rJ_9yEoCpFoU_fQHg3OR7gO0_7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADCoycMGZPLLK6z_ukhbB1ZLJG_gSEqgYViB7OkqCBy8yUPB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <2675D335-17C1-44A8-988F-E71B1D6F5FDC@pidigital.co.uk>
 <CADCoycMRt2npc-NGSxwrWGwPcp+XGF3WpanB_s02EdnHcKW-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPMPYpG5f9zm459Jw9rJ_9yEoCpFoU_fQHg3OR7gO0_7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E41ACF25-D24C-4A3A-85F5-A0F169433784@iotecdigital.com>

Hi Mike. 

I do this already in some "popup" fields I use. (There are reasons I use fields instead of buttons I won't go into here.) 

Depending on the popup, I may have an option like "New Customer..." as the first line in a list field. For my customers I maintain the last 15 customers accessed, and I store them between sessions in a local prefs file (each user needs their own recents). I have a Salesperson popup which behaves a bit differently. Here I maintain a list of salespersons in an SQL table called "lists" so that everyone sees the same list of salespersons. If a value is entered for a salesperson not in the list, I ask the user if they want to add this salesperson. This gives the user the opportunity to decline in case it is simply a mistype. 

I will often use a rawKeyUp handler to implement a hottype feature. Looks something like this:

ON rawKeyUp
   IF the text of me is empty THEN
      exit to top
   END IF
   
   wait .5 seconds WITH messages
   lock messages
   put filterOptions(lSalesPersons) into theSalesPersons
   listOptions theSalesPersons
   unlock messages
   select after me
   -- pass rawKeyUp
   exit to top
END rawKeyUp

lSalesPersons is script local variable that I populate with the salespersons on openField. filterOptions returns a list matching salespersons LIKE %<whatever the user has typed so far>%. listOptions populates the popup field so the user can select one of the filtered salespersons. 

HTH

Bob S

> On Oct 1, 2019, at 06:26 , Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Looking for ideas to add to a list that people can pick from.
> The good news is that if you want a cheap PR to get you toward your
> Hacktoberfest swag, instead of posting your idea here, you can update the
> 100% totally unofficial LC hacktoberfest repo here:
> https://github.com/macMikey/lc-hacktoberfest




From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Tue Oct  1 11:27:06 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 11:27:06 -0400
Subject: Hactoberfest is coming...
In-Reply-To: <E41ACF25-D24C-4A3A-85F5-A0F169433784@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CADCoycMGZPLLK6z_ukhbB1ZLJG_gSEqgYViB7OkqCBy8yUPB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <2675D335-17C1-44A8-988F-E71B1D6F5FDC@pidigital.co.uk>
 <CADCoycMRt2npc-NGSxwrWGwPcp+XGF3WpanB_s02EdnHcKW-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPMPYpG5f9zm459Jw9rJ_9yEoCpFoU_fQHg3OR7gO0_7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <E41ACF25-D24C-4A3A-85F5-A0F169433784@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycNBWzzZ-7fm8N3HWzEJJ7-yeaDKhAEou09PJWgBQwvoSw@mail.gmail.com>

wrong thread, i think, bob.

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 10:55 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Mike.
>
> I do this already in some "popup" fields I use. (There are reasons I use
> fields instead of buttons I won't go into here.)
>
> Depending on the popup, I may have an option like "New Customer..." as the
> first line in a list field. For my customers I maintain the last 15
> customers accessed, and I store them between sessions in a local prefs file
> (each user needs their own recents). I have a Salesperson popup which
> behaves a bit differently. Here I maintain a list of salespersons in an SQL
> table called "lists" so that everyone sees the same list of salespersons.
> If a value is entered for a salesperson not in the list, I ask the user if
> they want to add this salesperson. This gives the user the opportunity to
> decline in case it is simply a mistype.
>
> I will often use a rawKeyUp handler to implement a hottype feature. Looks
> something like this:
>
> ON rawKeyUp
>    IF the text of me is empty THEN
>       exit to top
>    END IF
>
>    wait .5 seconds WITH messages
>    lock messages
>    put filterOptions(lSalesPersons) into theSalesPersons
>    listOptions theSalesPersons
>    unlock messages
>    select after me
>    -- pass rawKeyUp
>    exit to top
> END rawKeyUp
>
> lSalesPersons is script local variable that I populate with the
> salespersons on openField. filterOptions returns a list matching
> salespersons LIKE %<whatever the user has typed so far>%. listOptions
> populates the popup field so the user can select one of the filtered
> salespersons.
>
> HTH
>
> Bob S
>
> > On Oct 1, 2019, at 06:26 , Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Looking for ideas to add to a list that people can pick from.
> > The good news is that if you want a cheap PR to get you toward your
> > Hacktoberfest swag, instead of posting your idea here, you can update the
> > 100% totally unofficial LC hacktoberfest repo here:
> > https://github.com/macMikey/lc-hacktoberfest
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct  1 11:37:08 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 15:37:08 +0000
Subject: Hactoberfest is coming...
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycNBWzzZ-7fm8N3HWzEJJ7-yeaDKhAEou09PJWgBQwvoSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADCoycMGZPLLK6z_ukhbB1ZLJG_gSEqgYViB7OkqCBy8yUPB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <2675D335-17C1-44A8-988F-E71B1D6F5FDC@pidigital.co.uk>
 <CADCoycMRt2npc-NGSxwrWGwPcp+XGF3WpanB_s02EdnHcKW-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPMPYpG5f9zm459Jw9rJ_9yEoCpFoU_fQHg3OR7gO0_7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <E41ACF25-D24C-4A3A-85F5-A0F169433784@iotecdigital.com>
 <CADCoycNBWzzZ-7fm8N3HWzEJJ7-yeaDKhAEou09PJWgBQwvoSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B5B6A45-184F-4B96-A68B-7EF62F399761@iotecdigital.com>

Responding to this:

Looking for ideas to add to a list that people can pick from.

> On Oct 1, 2019, at 08:27 , Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> wrong thread, i think, bob.




From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Tue Oct  1 11:40:19 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 11:40:19 -0400
Subject: Hactoberfest is coming...
In-Reply-To: <3B5B6A45-184F-4B96-A68B-7EF62F399761@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CADCoycMGZPLLK6z_ukhbB1ZLJG_gSEqgYViB7OkqCBy8yUPB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <2675D335-17C1-44A8-988F-E71B1D6F5FDC@pidigital.co.uk>
 <CADCoycMRt2npc-NGSxwrWGwPcp+XGF3WpanB_s02EdnHcKW-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPMPYpG5f9zm459Jw9rJ_9yEoCpFoU_fQHg3OR7gO0_7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <E41ACF25-D24C-4A3A-85F5-A0F169433784@iotecdigital.com>
 <CADCoycNBWzzZ-7fm8N3HWzEJJ7-yeaDKhAEou09PJWgBQwvoSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3B5B6A45-184F-4B96-A68B-7EF62F399761@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycP0k9Lpk_YafVs+ciN5Ms0YH69NUjT5YCLWgNgoguM=4g@mail.gmail.com>

LOL, sorry, not a list field, a list of ideas.


From paul at researchware.com  Tue Oct  1 11:59:39 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 11:59:39 -0400
Subject: Export snapshot and errors...
In-Reply-To: <C08091E8-F354-42BC-B8E0-992EDB526330@iotecdigital.com>
References: <86de263f-ed82-a87e-011e-9501431ae677@researchware.com>
 <7c14667e-8790-a789-c119-d66c4cc66f9b@researchware.com>
 <C08091E8-F354-42BC-B8E0-992EDB526330@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <06930c25-ca5e-fdba-a88e-45515649365d@researchware.com>

According to the Dictionary, if I am reading it correctly, in a command 
(vs function)

return empty -- sets both 'it' and 'the result' to the parameter of the 
return statement (in this case empty)
return empty for value -- sets 'it' to the parameter (empty) and clears 
'the result' indicating no error (empty)
return empty for error -- set 'the result' to the parameter (empty) and 
clears 'it' (empty) indicating no value returned from the command

So, yes, "return empty" will do, but I choose to use "return empty for 
error" to remind me that it is purposefully 'the result' that I wanted 
to clear.


On 10/1/2019 10:39 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> Is the for error necessary? I just return empty.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 06:02 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> command clearResult
>>    return empty for error
>> end clearResult
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct  1 12:03:37 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:03:37 +0000
Subject: Export snapshot and errors...
In-Reply-To: <06930c25-ca5e-fdba-a88e-45515649365d@researchware.com>
References: <86de263f-ed82-a87e-011e-9501431ae677@researchware.com>
 <7c14667e-8790-a789-c119-d66c4cc66f9b@researchware.com>
 <C08091E8-F354-42BC-B8E0-992EDB526330@iotecdigital.com>
 <06930c25-ca5e-fdba-a88e-45515649365d@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <23EBB3F4-A888-4D94-BBDA-75ED90F194E8@iotecdigital.com>

Thanks Paul. They should replace the dictionary description with your version, as yours makes a LOT more sense! I read the dictionary too, but came away confused. 

Bob S

> On Oct 1, 2019, at 08:59 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> According to the Dictionary, if I am reading it correctly, in a command (vs function)
> 
> return empty -- sets both 'it' and 'the result' to the parameter of the return statement (in this case empty)
> return empty for value -- sets 'it' to the parameter (empty) and clears 'the result' indicating no error (empty)
> return empty for error -- set 'the result' to the parameter (empty) and clears 'it' (empty) indicating no value returned from the command
> 
> So, yes, "return empty" will do, but I choose to use "return empty for error" to remind me that it is purposefully 'the result' that I wanted to clear.




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Tue Oct  1 23:52:38 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 20:52:38 -0700
Subject: publish and surprise
Message-ID: <f2fe86f2-08ec-2e1a-e1d7-b26d952679d0@sonic.net>

I have finally gotten around to noticing that LC9.x builds have opened 
the publish-and-subscribe mechanism to arbitrary messages. I'm not sure 
when this happened and I'm really not inclined to go searching through 
all those release notes, but I'm ecstatic over the surprise discovery. 
This means objects can register interest in certain messages to do 
something like

object1:
revIDESubscribe "helloworld"

object2:
revIDESubscribe "helloworld"

object3:
ideMessageSendWithParameters "helloworld"

and both object1 and object2 will get notifications, fully implementing 
the Publish-and-Subscribe design pattern.

Thank you team.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct  2 08:52:52 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 08:52:52 -0400
Subject: publish and surprise
In-Reply-To: <f2fe86f2-08ec-2e1a-e1d7-b26d952679d0@sonic.net>
References: <f2fe86f2-08ec-2e1a-e1d7-b26d952679d0@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <46a0b9c9-c1b1-bd36-6159-f24e53d3b6b4@researchware.com>

On 10/1/2019 11:52 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> I have finally gotten around to noticing that LC9.x builds have opened 
> the publish-and-subscribe mechanism to arbitrary messages. I'm not 
> sure when this happened and I'm really not inclined to go searching 
> through all those release notes, but I'm ecstatic over the surprise 
> discovery. This means objects can register interest in certain 
> messages to do something like
>
> object1:
> revIDESubscribe "helloworld"
>
> object2:
> revIDESubscribe "helloworld"
>
> object3:
> ideMessageSendWithParameters "helloworld"
>
> and both object1 and object2 will get notifications, fully 
> implementing the Publish-and-Subscribe design pattern.
>
> Thank you team.
>

Have you tested this is a standalone?

I thought (probably incorrectly) that revIDE... functions/commands were 
only available when running in the IDE?




From tom at makeshyft.com  Wed Oct  2 08:58:55 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 08:58:55 -0400
Subject: publish and surprise
In-Reply-To: <46a0b9c9-c1b1-bd36-6159-f24e53d3b6b4@researchware.com>
References: <f2fe86f2-08ec-2e1a-e1d7-b26d952679d0@sonic.net>
 <46a0b9c9-c1b1-bd36-6159-f24e53d3b6b4@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLQGa2DryxiRj3Y=EohwmRBWMOuLmyq=FPd5NG7a9PAVg@mail.gmail.com>

thats what i'm thiking about..its only documented in the "create a plugin"
sections.  But having this in standalones would be a bit of news.

So every message the engine sends is checked to see if there is a
subscription to that message and then all objects ( whether in the path or
not. ) that are subscribed would receive a message that this message was
triggered. That is pretty cool!

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 8:53 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 10/1/2019 11:52 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> > I have finally gotten around to noticing that LC9.x builds have opened
> > the publish-and-subscribe mechanism to arbitrary messages. I'm not
> > sure when this happened and I'm really not inclined to go searching
> > through all those release notes, but I'm ecstatic over the surprise
> > discovery. This means objects can register interest in certain
> > messages to do something like
> >
> > object1:
> > revIDESubscribe "helloworld"
> >
> > object2:
> > revIDESubscribe "helloworld"
> >
> > object3:
> > ideMessageSendWithParameters "helloworld"
> >
> > and both object1 and object2 will get notifications, fully
> > implementing the Publish-and-Subscribe design pattern.
> >
> > Thank you team.
> >
>
> Have you tested this is a standalone?
>
> I thought (probably incorrectly) that revIDE... functions/commands were
> only available when running in the IDE?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct  2 09:59:25 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:59:25 -0400
Subject: publish and surprise
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLQGa2DryxiRj3Y=EohwmRBWMOuLmyq=FPd5NG7a9PAVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f2fe86f2-08ec-2e1a-e1d7-b26d952679d0@sonic.net>
 <46a0b9c9-c1b1-bd36-6159-f24e53d3b6b4@researchware.com>
 <CAPzQJLLQGa2DryxiRj3Y=EohwmRBWMOuLmyq=FPd5NG7a9PAVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a41e20f4-28c2-2c63-dcc1-c52d5b772069@researchware.com>

I would love to see a publish and subscribe system in the engine for use 
in Standalone.

I've written a LCS library for for publish and subscribe within our 
commercial apps, but would toss it in an instant for a good engine 
implementation.

Beyond abstracted commands like:
revIDESubscribe "helloworld" -> subscribe <messageName>
ideMessageSendWithParameters "helloworld" -> publish <messageName> with 
<parameters>, which could just be existing "send" or "dispatch"

You need a general suppress messages/unsuppress messages, which we have 
as "lock messages" and "unlock messages" already in the language.

You also need an "unsubscribe <messageName>" and a "lock <messageName> 
messages [for <object>]" / "unlock <messageName> messages [for 
<object>]" to allow suppression/unsuppression of a specific message for 
all objects or for specific object.

We already have "the pendingMessages" and "cancel", but you would also 
want to add "the subscribers [of <messageName>]" for a list of long IDs 
of objects and their messages or filtered for a specific message 
subscribed to and "the publishers [of <messageName>]" for a similar list 
of object IDs when the messages they publish or filtered for a specific 
message.

Or perhaps I have been thinking too much about this!


On 10/2/2019 8:58 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
> thats what i'm thiking about..its only documented in the "create a plugin"
> sections.  But having this in standalones would be a bit of news.
>
> So every message the engine sends is checked to see if there is a
> subscription to that message and then all objects ( whether in the path or
> not. ) that are subscribed would receive a message that this message was
> triggered. That is pretty cool!
>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 8:53 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/1/2019 11:52 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
>>> I have finally gotten around to noticing that LC9.x builds have opened
>>> the publish-and-subscribe mechanism to arbitrary messages. I'm not
>>> sure when this happened and I'm really not inclined to go searching
>>> through all those release notes, but I'm ecstatic over the surprise
>>> discovery. This means objects can register interest in certain
>>> messages to do something like
>>>
>>> object1:
>>> revIDESubscribe "helloworld"
>>>
>>> object2:
>>> revIDESubscribe "helloworld"
>>>
>>> object3:
>>> ideMessageSendWithParameters "helloworld"
>>>
>>> and both object1 and object2 will get notifications, fully
>>> implementing the Publish-and-Subscribe design pattern.
>>>
>>> Thank you team.
>>>
>> Have you tested this is a standalone?
>>
>> I thought (probably incorrectly) that revIDE... functions/commands were
>> only available when running in the IDE?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>




From mike at golddogcoffee.com  Wed Oct  2 10:19:47 2019
From: mike at golddogcoffee.com (Mike for GDC)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 08:19:47 -0600
Subject: DataGrid Scrolling problem
Message-ID: <007d01d5792c$729cac90$57d605b0$@golddogcoffee.com>

Hello,

 

I have a problem with a datagrid.   I cannot see the last couple of rows
when scrolling.  For instance if you have 100 lines and scroll to the bottom
of the grid you only get up to 98.  If you "hold" the scroll by forcing the
scroll to go to the bottom you can see lines 99 and 100 but because you are
holding the screen you cannot "select" either one of those lines.   When you
take your finger off the grid, the scroll immediately takes the last two
lines off the screen and you can just see up to line 98 again.   Hope this
description makes sense.

 

Thanks.

Mike

 



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  2 10:44:57 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 14:44:57 +0000
Subject: DataGrid Scrolling problem
In-Reply-To: <007d01d5792c$729cac90$57d605b0$@golddogcoffee.com>
References: <007d01d5792c$729cac90$57d605b0$@golddogcoffee.com>
Message-ID: <EB118E2C-237A-48DC-95C2-CBAD547AFE17@iotecdigital.com>

Just tested here with a table style DG. Works fine LC 9.5 MacOS 10.14.6. 

Bob S


> On Oct 2, 2019, at 07:19 , Mike for GDC via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I have a problem with a datagrid.   I cannot see the last couple of rows
> when scrolling.  For instance if you have 100 lines and scroll to the bottom
> of the grid you only get up to 98.  If you "hold" the scroll by forcing the
> scroll to go to the bottom you can see lines 99 and 100 but because you are
> holding the screen you cannot "select" either one of those lines.   When you
> take your finger off the grid, the scroll immediately takes the last two
> lines off the screen and you can just see up to line 98 again.   Hope this
> description makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mike



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  2 10:50:50 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 14:50:50 +0000
Subject: DataGrid Scrolling problem
In-Reply-To: <007d01d5792c$729cac90$57d605b0$@golddogcoffee.com>
References: <007d01d5792c$729cac90$57d605b0$@golddogcoffee.com>
Message-ID: <0E4CAF71-A9AB-4A4D-9743-CFB3599CB9C6@iotecdigital.com>

When I have datagrid display weirdness I do a couple things. First, I get the dgText of the datagrid to see if there isn't unexpected data there. I will also get the dgData to see if there aren't off keys. Once I had a bug in my code that put a key of 0 with an empty value. It didn't display, but it caused issues (can't remember what they were at the moment). 

Another thing I have done is recreate the datagrid. I wrote two functions to "backup" and restore a datagrid. I essentially create an array with all the properties I care about in a datagrid, then restore those settings to a new datagrid. 

Bob S


> On Oct 2, 2019, at 07:19 , Mike for GDC via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I have a problem with a datagrid.   I cannot see the last couple of rows
> when scrolling.  For instance if you have 100 lines and scroll to the bottom
> of the grid you only get up to 98.  If you "hold" the scroll by forcing the
> scroll to go to the bottom you can see lines 99 and 100 but because you are
> holding the screen you cannot "select" either one of those lines.   When you
> take your finger off the grid, the scroll immediately takes the last two
> lines off the screen and you can just see up to line 98 again.   Hope this
> description makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Wed Oct  2 11:44:25 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 08:44:25 -0700
Subject: publish and surprise
In-Reply-To: <a41e20f4-28c2-2c63-dcc1-c52d5b772069@researchware.com>
References: <f2fe86f2-08ec-2e1a-e1d7-b26d952679d0@sonic.net>
 <46a0b9c9-c1b1-bd36-6159-f24e53d3b6b4@researchware.com>
 <CAPzQJLLQGa2DryxiRj3Y=EohwmRBWMOuLmyq=FPd5NG7a9PAVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a41e20f4-28c2-2c63-dcc1-c52d5b772069@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <8957f0c2-09d3-868b-3076-cf1800b04155@sonic.net>

On 10/2/19 6:59 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:
> I would love to see a publish and subscribe system in the engine for use 
> in Standalone.

I made a PubSub dispatcher library some years ago. If the livecodeshare 
or whatever it's called now website is back in operation it should be 
there. But not having to use Yet Another Library within the IDE is 
awesome. In the past this has only been useful to a proscribed set of 
messages and stacks which has been limiting. My PowerTools plugin, for 
instance, has some unused controls that are necessary because other 
places in the IDE send mouseUp messages to controls that are expected to 
exist in particular places. Decoupling those messages through publishing 
and subscribing removes the dependency and the need for in-depth 
knowledge of the internal workings of other stacks. And leads the way 
for the IDE to be a framework for a collection of independent stacks.

Ah... found it.
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/714/Publish-and-Subscribe

That took some doing. Any idea why livecodeshare is at runrev.com 
instead of livecode.com/org whatever? I would have thought there would 
at least be a redirect, but livecodeshare.livecode.com just throws a 404.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Oct  2 12:52:00 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 12:52:00 -0400
Subject: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>

Panos,

Will I still be able to use Xcode 10.1 with the next LC release? I asked Mark about this at the conference and said that I would be OK until Apple discontinued support of 12.1 SDK

Thanks

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 4:53 PM
To: Erik Beugelaar
Cc: panagiotis merakos; How to use LiveCode
Subject: Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?

Hello Erik,

Sure :)

For 10.14.x MacOS version, it applies the same:

LiveCode 9.5.0 / Xcode 10.1 / Mac OS 10.14.x / iOS 12.1

Note this will change in the next LC release, as we are now adding support for building with Xcode 11.1 / iOS 13.1 SDK

BTW the entries for LC 9.5.0 and Xcode 10.1 should say "Mac OS 10.13.6+"
instead of  "Mac OS 10.13.4+".

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 at 23:43, Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com> wrote:

> Hello Panos,
>
> Maybe an idea to update the list on
> https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ supporting 10.14.x macOS 
> versions?
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
>
>
>
> *From: *panagiotis merakos <merakosp at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, 30 September 2019 at 20:06
> *To: *How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> *Cc: *Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>
> *Subject: *Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> For this combination you need Xcode 10.1.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Panos
>
> --
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 19:49 Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode < 
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> Dan, I assume Xcode 10.2.1 according
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcode#Xcode_7.0_-_9.x_.28since_Free_On-D
> evice_Development.29
>
> Cheers, Erik
>
> ?On 30/09/2019, 18:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via 
> use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of 
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>     Good Morning!   I have LiveCode 9.5.0 and MacOS  10.14.6.  What
> version of Xcode do I need for iOS and macOS development?
>
>     That's in advance!
>     -Dan
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     use-livecode mailing list
>     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
>     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From merakosp at gmail.com  Wed Oct  2 12:54:27 2019
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:54:27 +0300
Subject: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ralph,

In the next release (9.5.1 rc-1), we will add support for Xcode 11.1 if
your Mac runs MacOS Mojave (10.14) or above. If your Mac runs High Sierra
(10.13.x), you will still be able to use Xcode 10.1

Kind regards
Panos

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019, 19:51 Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Panos,
>
> Will I still be able to use Xcode 10.1 with the next LC release? I asked
> Mark about this at the conference and said that I would be OK until Apple
> discontinued support of 12.1 SDK
>
> Thanks
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On
> Behalf Of panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 4:53 PM
> To: Erik Beugelaar
> Cc: panagiotis merakos; How to use LiveCode
> Subject: Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
>
> Hello Erik,
>
> Sure :)
>
> For 10.14.x MacOS version, it applies the same:
>
> LiveCode 9.5.0 / Xcode 10.1 / Mac OS 10.14.x / iOS 12.1
>
> Note this will change in the next LC release, as we are now adding support
> for building with Xcode 11.1 / iOS 13.1 SDK
>
> BTW the entries for LC 9.5.0 and Xcode 10.1 should say "Mac OS 10.13.6+"
> instead of  "Mac OS 10.13.4+".
>
> Kind regards,
> Panos
> --
>
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 at 23:43, Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Panos,
> >
> > Maybe an idea to update the list on
> > https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ supporting 10.14.x macOS
> > versions?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Erik
> >
> >
> >
> > *From: *panagiotis merakos <merakosp at gmail.com>
> > *Date: *Monday, 30 September 2019 at 20:06
> > *To: *How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> > *Cc: *Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>
> > *Subject: *Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> >
> >
> > For this combination you need Xcode 10.1.
> >
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Panos
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 19:49 Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dan, I assume Xcode 10.2.1 according
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcode#Xcode_7.0_-_9.x_.28since_Free_On-D
> > evice_Development.29
> >
> > Cheers, Erik
> >
> > ?On 30/09/2019, 18:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via
> > use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >     Good Morning!   I have LiveCode 9.5.0 and MacOS  10.14.6.  What
> > version of Xcode do I need for iOS and macOS development?
> >
> >     That's in advance!
> >     -Dan
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     use-livecode mailing list
> >     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> >     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Oct  2 13:04:29 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 13:04:29 -0400
Subject: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>

Panos,

 

Thanks. I am running High Sierra 10.13.6. Unfortunately Apple has discontinued support for my Mac Book Pro.

 

Ralph DiMola

IT Director

Evergreen Information Services

rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

 

From: panagiotis merakos [mailto:merakosp at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 12:54 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Ralph DiMola
Subject: Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?

 

Hello Ralph,

 

In the next release (9.5.1 rc-1), we will add support for Xcode 11.1 if your Mac runs MacOS Mojave (10.14) or above. If your Mac runs High Sierra (10.13.x), you will still be able to use Xcode 10.1

 

Kind regards

Panos

 

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019, 19:51 Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

Panos,

Will I still be able to use Xcode 10.1 with the next LC release? I asked Mark about this at the conference and said that I would be OK until Apple discontinued support of 12.1 SDK

Thanks

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 4:53 PM
To: Erik Beugelaar
Cc: panagiotis merakos; How to use LiveCode
Subject: Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?

Hello Erik,

Sure :)

For 10.14.x MacOS version, it applies the same:

LiveCode 9.5.0 / Xcode 10.1 / Mac OS 10.14.x / iOS 12.1

Note this will change in the next LC release, as we are now adding support for building with Xcode 11.1 / iOS 13.1 SDK

BTW the entries for LC 9.5.0 and Xcode 10.1 should say "Mac OS 10.13.6+"
instead of  "Mac OS 10.13.4+".

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 at 23:43, Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com> wrote:

> Hello Panos,
>
> Maybe an idea to update the list on
> https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ supporting 10.14.x macOS 
> versions?
>
> Regards,
>
> Erik
>
>
>
> *From: *panagiotis merakos <merakosp at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, 30 September 2019 at 20:06
> *To: *How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> *Cc: *Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>
> *Subject: *Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> For this combination you need Xcode 10.1.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Panos
>
> --
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 19:49 Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode < 
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> Dan, I assume Xcode 10.2.1 according
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcode#Xcode_7.0_-_9.x_.28since_Free_On-D
> evice_Development.29
>
> Cheers, Erik
>
> ?On 30/09/2019, 18:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via 
> use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of 
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>     Good Morning!   I have LiveCode 9.5.0 and MacOS  10.14.6.  What
> version of Xcode do I need for iOS and macOS development?
>
>     That's in advance!
>     -Dan
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     use-livecode mailing list
>     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
>     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
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use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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From merakosp at gmail.com  Wed Oct  2 13:04:50 2019
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 20:04:50 +0300
Subject: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>

Ok so you should be OK using Xcode 10.1 in LC 9.5.1 rc-1 :)

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019, 20:03 Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Panos,
>
>
>
> Thanks. I am running High Sierra 10.13.6. Unfortunately Apple has
> discontinued support for my Mac Book Pro.
>
>
>
> Ralph DiMola
>
> IT Director
>
> Evergreen Information Services
>
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
>
>
> From: panagiotis merakos [mailto:merakosp at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 12:54 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Ralph DiMola
> Subject: Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
>
>
>
> Hello Ralph,
>
>
>
> In the next release (9.5.1 rc-1), we will add support for Xcode 11.1 if
> your Mac runs MacOS Mojave (10.14) or above. If your Mac runs High Sierra
> (10.13.x), you will still be able to use Xcode 10.1
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Panos
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019, 19:51 Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> Panos,
>
> Will I still be able to use Xcode 10.1 with the next LC release? I asked
> Mark about this at the conference and said that I would be OK until Apple
> discontinued support of 12.1 SDK
>
> Thanks
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On
> Behalf Of panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 4:53 PM
> To: Erik Beugelaar
> Cc: panagiotis merakos; How to use LiveCode
> Subject: Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
>
> Hello Erik,
>
> Sure :)
>
> For 10.14.x MacOS version, it applies the same:
>
> LiveCode 9.5.0 / Xcode 10.1 / Mac OS 10.14.x / iOS 12.1
>
> Note this will change in the next LC release, as we are now adding support
> for building with Xcode 11.1 / iOS 13.1 SDK
>
> BTW the entries for LC 9.5.0 and Xcode 10.1 should say "Mac OS 10.13.6+"
> instead of  "Mac OS 10.13.4+".
>
> Kind regards,
> Panos
> --
>
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 at 23:43, Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Panos,
> >
> > Maybe an idea to update the list on
> > https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ supporting 10.14.x macOS
> > versions?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Erik
> >
> >
> >
> > *From: *panagiotis merakos <merakosp at gmail.com>
> > *Date: *Monday, 30 September 2019 at 20:06
> > *To: *How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> > *Cc: *Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>
> > *Subject: *Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> >
> >
> > For this combination you need Xcode 10.1.
> >
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Panos
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 19:49 Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dan, I assume Xcode 10.2.1 according
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcode#Xcode_7.0_-_9.x_.28since_Free_On-D
> > evice_Development.29
> >
> > Cheers, Erik
> >
> > ?On 30/09/2019, 18:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via
> > use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >     Good Morning!   I have LiveCode 9.5.0 and MacOS  10.14.6.  What
> > version of Xcode do I need for iOS and macOS development?
> >
> >     That's in advance!
> >     -Dan
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     use-livecode mailing list
> >     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> >     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From merakosp at gmail.com  Wed Oct  2 13:07:04 2019
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 20:07:04 +0300
Subject: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>

Ralph,

BTW the rule of thumb is that we keep supporting the latest Xcode that can
be installed in each MacOS version.

Kind regards
Panos


On Wed, Oct 2, 2019, 20:04 panagiotis merakos <merakosp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ok so you should be OK using Xcode 10.1 in LC 9.5.1 rc-1 :)
>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019, 20:03 Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Panos,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks. I am running High Sierra 10.13.6. Unfortunately Apple has
>> discontinued support for my Mac Book Pro.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ralph DiMola
>>
>> IT Director
>>
>> Evergreen Information Services
>>
>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>>
>>
>>
>> From: panagiotis merakos [mailto:merakosp at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 12:54 PM
>> To: How to use LiveCode
>> Cc: Ralph DiMola
>> Subject: Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Ralph,
>>
>>
>>
>> In the next release (9.5.1 rc-1), we will add support for Xcode 11.1 if
>> your Mac runs MacOS Mojave (10.14) or above. If your Mac runs High Sierra
>> (10.13.x), you will still be able to use Xcode 10.1
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Panos
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019, 19:51 Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Panos,
>>
>> Will I still be able to use Xcode 10.1 with the next LC release? I asked
>> Mark about this at the conference and said that I would be OK until Apple
>> discontinued support of 12.1 SDK
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ralph DiMola
>> IT Director
>> Evergreen Information Services
>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On
>> Behalf Of panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
>> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 4:53 PM
>> To: Erik Beugelaar
>> Cc: panagiotis merakos; How to use LiveCode
>> Subject: Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
>>
>> Hello Erik,
>>
>> Sure :)
>>
>> For 10.14.x MacOS version, it applies the same:
>>
>> LiveCode 9.5.0 / Xcode 10.1 / Mac OS 10.14.x / iOS 12.1
>>
>> Note this will change in the next LC release, as we are now adding
>> support for building with Xcode 11.1 / iOS 13.1 SDK
>>
>> BTW the entries for LC 9.5.0 and Xcode 10.1 should say "Mac OS 10.13.6+"
>> instead of  "Mac OS 10.13.4+".
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Panos
>> --
>>
>> On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 at 23:43, Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello Panos,
>> >
>> > Maybe an idea to update the list on
>> > https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ supporting 10.14.x macOS
>> > versions?
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Erik
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > *From: *panagiotis merakos <merakosp at gmail.com>
>> > *Date: *Monday, 30 September 2019 at 20:06
>> > *To: *How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
>> > *Cc: *Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>
>> > *Subject: *Re: So... Xcode, macOS and Livecode... where are we now?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello all,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For this combination you need Xcode 10.1.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Kind regards,
>> >
>> > Panos
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 19:49 Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <
>> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dan, I assume Xcode 10.2.1 according
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcode#Xcode_7.0_-_9.x_.28since_Free_On-D
>> > evice_Development.29
>> >
>> > Cheers, Erik
>> >
>> > ?On 30/09/2019, 18:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via
>> > use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of
>> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >     Good Morning!   I have LiveCode 9.5.0 and MacOS  10.14.6.  What
>> > version of Xcode do I need for iOS and macOS development?
>> >
>> >     That's in advance!
>> >     -Dan
>> >
>> >     _______________________________________________
>> >     use-livecode mailing list
>> >     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> >     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> > subscription preferences:
>> >     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > use-livecode mailing list
>> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> > subscription preferences:
>> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>


From klaus at major-k.de  Wed Oct  2 13:10:47 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:10:47 +0200
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>

Hi Panos,

BTW, obviously LC 9.05 did not make it through the summer, right? 8-)


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From tom at makeshyft.com  Wed Oct  2 13:17:51 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 13:17:51 -0400
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>

I dunno if thats what you are talking about ...but i'm waiting for 9.05
stable.......wondering when thats scheduled to arrive.

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Klaus major-k via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Panos,
>
> BTW, obviously LC 9.05 did not make it through the summer, right? 8-)
>
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From klaus at major-k.de  Wed Oct  2 13:24:49 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:24:49 +0200
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>

Hi Tom

> Am 02.10.2019 um 19:17 schrieb Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> I dunno if thats what you are talking about ...but i'm waiting for 9.05
> stable.......wondering when thats scheduled to arrive.

yep, that's what I was talking about, but unfortunately forgot the IRONY tags! 8-)
> 
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Klaus major-k via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Panos,
>> 
>> BTW, obviously LC 9.05 did not make it through the summer, right? 8-)

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From tom at makeshyft.com  Wed Oct  2 14:02:09 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 14:02:09 -0400
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>

yeah.... its an odd gap of time...especially for a release with so many
vital fixes.  I hope someone takes the time to let us know.  Its usually
2-3 months between stables....we are at 4 + on this one.

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 1:24 PM Klaus major-k via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Tom
>
> > Am 02.10.2019 um 19:17 schrieb Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > I dunno if thats what you are talking about ...but i'm waiting for 9.05
> > stable.......wondering when thats scheduled to arrive.
>
> yep, that's what I was talking about, but unfortunately forgot the IRONY
> tags! 8-)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Klaus major-k via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Panos,
> >>
> >> BTW, obviously LC 9.05 did not make it through the summer, right? 8-)
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
>
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Wed Oct  2 14:08:32 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:08:32 +0100
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>

Have a look at the 3 releases of Livecode for FM in the last month to see
where all the effort is going this is now getting
ridiculous we get a few scraps   ... Nuff said.

https://filemaker.livecode.com/lcfm-native-1-2-launched/
https://filemaker.livecode.com/lcfm-native-1-1-ships/
https://filemaker.livecode.com/lcfm-native-1-0-launched/


Lagi

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 19:03, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> yeah.... its an odd gap of time...especially for a release with so many
> vital fixes.  I hope someone takes the time to let us know.  Its usually
> 2-3 months between stables....we are at 4 + on this one.
>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 1:24 PM Klaus major-k via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Tom
> >
> > > Am 02.10.2019 um 19:17 schrieb Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> > >
> > > I dunno if thats what you are talking about ...but i'm waiting for 9.05
> > > stable.......wondering when thats scheduled to arrive.
> >
> > yep, that's what I was talking about, but unfortunately forgot the IRONY
> > tags! 8-)
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Klaus major-k via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Panos,
> > >>
> > >> BTW, obviously LC 9.05 did not make it through the summer, right? 8-)
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Klaus
> >
> > --
> > Klaus Major
> > https://www.major-k.de
> > klaus at major-k.de
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Wed Oct  2 14:24:02 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 13:24:02 -0500
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 1:09 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Have a look at the 3 releases of Livecode for FM in the last month to see
> where all the effort is going this is now getting
> ridiculous we get a few scraps   ... Nuff said.
>
> https://filemaker.livecode.com/lcfm-native-1-2-launched/
> https://filemaker.livecode.com/lcfm-native-1-1-ships/
> https://filemaker.livecode.com/lcfm-native-1-0-launched/


I suspect that the quick updates to LiveCode FM are a sign that the launch
at the FileMaker conference generated a lot of interest and there is some
momentum building there. Perhaps they are trying to quickly fill in the
gaps based on that interest so that they can close more licensing deals? If
that is the case and they can build that revenue source then it should
ultimately be a good thing for those of us who don't use LiveCode FM. It is
unfortunate that LC has to sit mostly idle for so long though.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From hh at hyperhh.de  Wed Oct  2 15:00:41 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 21:00:41 +0200
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
Message-ID: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>

> Trevor D. wrote:
> If that is the case and they can build that revenue source
> then it should ultimately be a good thing for those of us
> who don't use LiveCode FM. It is unfortunate that LC has
> to sit mostly idle for so long though.

All true. But will the idle state of LC ever change again?

Filemaker is updating its features fast and so LiveCode will
FOREVER try to reach their goal of supporting 99% of the FM
features: "Version 1.2 of LCFM covers approximately 78% of
the total FileMaker feature set" ...



From kee.nethery at elloco.com  Wed Oct  2 15:05:27 2019
From: kee.nethery at elloco.com (kee nethery)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 12:05:27 -0700
Subject: Livecode unit test harness?
In-Reply-To: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <B5C3CB5F-6392-4DCB-AF5B-436038A562BC@elloco.com>

I assume RunRev does unit tests for LiveCode.

Is there a test harness where we can submit a stack to be in the unit test set of tests that they use?

Hypercard was hella reliable, I?d love for Livecode to be as reliable.

Kee Nethery


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Wed Oct  2 15:17:04 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 12:17:04 -0700
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>

On 10/2/19 11:24 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:

> I suspect that the quick updates to LiveCode FM are a sign that the launch
> at the FileMaker conference generated a lot of interest and there is some
> momentum building there. Perhaps they are trying to quickly fill in the
> gaps based on that interest so that they can close more licensing deals? If
> that is the case and they can build that revenue source then it should
> ultimately be a good thing for those of us who don't use LiveCode FM. It is
> unfortunate that LC has to sit mostly idle for so long though.
> 

Indeed. There are currently some 200 or so pull requests waiting in the 
queue for action.

I'm encouraged by this: https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Wed Oct  2 15:18:51 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 12:18:51 -0700
Subject: Livecode unit test harness?
In-Reply-To: <B5C3CB5F-6392-4DCB-AF5B-436038A562BC@elloco.com>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
 <B5C3CB5F-6392-4DCB-AF5B-436038A562BC@elloco.com>
Message-ID: <bbacdf13-8218-71d2-e1df-db00e569e790@sonic.net>

On 10/2/19 12:05 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode wrote:
> I assume RunRev does unit tests for LiveCode.
> 
> Is there a test harness where we can submit a stack to be in the unit test set of tests that they use?
> 
> Hypercard was hella reliable, I?d love for Livecode to be as reliable.

 >> pinging ali.lloyd at livecode.com

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com  Wed Oct  2 15:29:53 2019
From: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com (andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 19:29:53 +0000
Subject: DataGrid Scrolling problem
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1570032001.381725.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <20191002192953.Horde.6nlUX1_GYbU7C8DS-jMiisV@oa.serversignin.com>

Now that you mention this, I see the same issue with 2 of my apps in  
the iOS store that were built using LC 9.5. There is one item just  
"past" the bottom of the datagrid that you can only see if you swipe  
beyond the end, but as soon as you let go it snaps back to showing the  
2nd to last item.

Seems more like this is an issue with the scroller than the datagrid itself.

--Andrew Bell


>
> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 08:19:47 -0600
> From: "Mike for GDC" <mike at golddogcoffee.com>
> Subject: DataGrid Scrolling problem
> Message-ID: <007d01d5792c$729cac90$57d605b0$@golddogcoffee.com>
>
> Hello,
>
> I have a problem with a datagrid.   I cannot see the last couple of rows
> when scrolling.  For instance if you have 100 lines and scroll to the bottom
> of the grid you only get up to 98.  If you "hold" the scroll by forcing the
> scroll to go to the bottom you can see lines 99 and 100 but because you are
> holding the screen you cannot "select" either one of those lines.   When you
> take your finger off the grid, the scroll immediately takes the last two
> lines off the screen and you can just see up to line 98 again.   Hope this
> description makes sense.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike
>





From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Oct  2 15:58:35 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 15:58:35 -0400
Subject: DataGrid Scrolling problem
In-Reply-To: <20191002192953.Horde.6nlUX1_GYbU7C8DS-jMiisV@oa.serversignin.com>
References: <mailman.1.1570032001.381725.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <20191002192953.Horde.6nlUX1_GYbU7C8DS-jMiisV@oa.serversignin.com>
Message-ID: <015601d5795b$c973c510$5c5b4f30$@net>

I always add 20 PXs to the formattedheight of the control. Then use that
result for item 4 of the contentrect to solve this. 20 seems to work on all
device resolutions I've tested although I'm sure that there is a formula
based on the device resolution that would create consistency between
devices.


Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Bell via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 3:30 PM
To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Cc: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com
Subject: Re: DataGrid Scrolling problem

Now that you mention this, I see the same issue with 2 of my apps in the iOS
store that were built using LC 9.5. There is one item just "past" the bottom
of the datagrid that you can only see if you swipe beyond the end, but as
soon as you let go it snaps back to showing the 2nd to last item.

Seems more like this is an issue with the scroller than the datagrid itself.

--Andrew Bell


>
> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 08:19:47 -0600
> From: "Mike for GDC" <mike at golddogcoffee.com>
> Subject: DataGrid Scrolling problem
> Message-ID: <007d01d5792c$729cac90$57d605b0$@golddogcoffee.com>
>
> Hello,
>
> I have a problem with a datagrid.   I cannot see the last couple of rows
> when scrolling.  For instance if you have 100 lines and scroll to the 
> bottom of the grid you only get up to 98.  If you "hold" the scroll by 
> forcing the scroll to go to the bottom you can see lines 99 and 100 but
because you are
> holding the screen you cannot "select" either one of those lines.   When
you
> take your finger off the grid, the scroll immediately takes the last two
> lines off the screen and you can just see up to line 98 again.   Hope this
> description makes sense.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike
>



_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From brian at milby7.com  Wed Oct  2 17:06:18 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 17:06:18 -0400
Subject: Livecode unit test harness?
In-Reply-To: <B5C3CB5F-6392-4DCB-AF5B-436038A562BC@elloco.com>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
 <B5C3CB5F-6392-4DCB-AF5B-436038A562BC@elloco.com>
Message-ID: <67a3a918-f9fb-4303-bd14-6d78ada25f32@Spark>

This may be what you are looking for. ?Specific pieces of the engine are tested for every build.

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/tree/develop/engine/exec-tests

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 2, 2019, 3:06 PM -0400, kee nethery via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> I assume RunRev does unit tests for LiveCode.
>
> Is there a test harness where we can submit a stack to be in the unit test set of tests that they use?
>
> Hypercard was hella reliable, I?d love for Livecode to be as reliable.
>
> Kee Nethery
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From tom at makeshyft.com  Wed Oct  2 18:24:40 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 18:24:40 -0400
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>

We all need livecode the company to be stable and profitable, so if they
have to temporarily focus on x to create long term viability, then they
should do it. Maybe just let everyone know what the plan is....and maybe on
a release with multiple bug fixes such as 9.05 is important to prioritize
it a little bit.

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 3:17 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 10/2/19 11:24 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > I suspect that the quick updates to LiveCode FM are a sign that the
> launch
> > at the FileMaker conference generated a lot of interest and there is some
> > momentum building there. Perhaps they are trying to quickly fill in the
> > gaps based on that interest so that they can close more licensing deals?
> If
> > that is the case and they can build that revenue source then it should
> > ultimately be a good thing for those of us who don't use LiveCode FM. It
> is
> > unfortunate that LC has to sit mostly idle for so long though.
> >
>
> Indeed. There are currently some 200 or so pull requests waiting in the
> queue for action.
>
> I'm encouraged by this: https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From ali.lloyd at livecode.com  Thu Oct  3 03:51:25 2019
From: ali.lloyd at livecode.com (Ali Lloyd)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 08:51:25 +0100
Subject: Livecode unit test harness?
In-Reply-To: <67a3a918-f9fb-4303-bd14-6d78ada25f32@Spark>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
 <B5C3CB5F-6392-4DCB-AF5B-436038A562BC@elloco.com>
 <67a3a918-f9fb-4303-bd14-6d78ada25f32@Spark>
Message-ID: <CAJR0Q1iY4qS2fN12qxPNtxSqZdXEWM69oc4_rJZaDKpCa7TKVg@mail.gmail.com>

Actually the exec-tests folder should probably be removed - that was our
initial attempt at adding a test for each syntax variant while we were
doing the refactoring project. They were translated at some point into the
new test format at
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/tree/develop/tests/lcs/core.

This blog post is still worth a look even though it is now two years out of
date: https://livecode.com/testing-1-2-28534/ - nothing fundamental
has changed about test structure since then. If you're planning on writing
(LCS) tests, this document describes the API of the test library
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/blob/develop/docs/development/testing.md

I still need to write a bit about integrating Travis CI at some point!

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 22:06, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> This may be what you are looking for.  Specific pieces of the engine are
> tested for every build.
>
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/tree/develop/engine/exec-tests
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 2, 2019, 3:06 PM -0400, kee nethery via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > I assume RunRev does unit tests for LiveCode.
> >
> > Is there a test harness where we can submit a stack to be in the unit
> test set of tests that they use?
> >
> > Hypercard was hella reliable, I?d love for Livecode to be as reliable.
> >
> > Kee Nethery
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 05:55:07 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 10:55:07 +0100
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tom,

It doesn't take a Sherlock home to work out that if (I hope when!)  LCFM
works out that the company will have
an influx of "new blood" with the attendant large increase in yearly
subscriptions.

My very short post (cut down from my usual rants) was lobbing a tiny hand
grenade in to arena, and see if someone at LCHQ
bites and tells us something of consequence rather than "it's going well"
or LC will be the better for all the new stuff they are working on.

Surely if they have some extra money coming in they can have someone
working on finishing all the (paid for) promises and milestones.
(HH and Sean  I feel your pain - HTML5 anyone?). I'm reading between the
lines but Trevor probably knows how well it's doing - but the rest of use
are being treated like mushrooms.

"Soon" can be years rather than months and weeks - and typically is years.
For example Filemaker has a precision of 16 to 400 digits. So that MUST
have been coded for, will we get that retrofitted in the future .
I'm not asking because I need 400 digits but you never know.

Filemaker has data binding and field Validation.
https://fmhelp.filemaker.com/help/16/fmp/en/#page/FMP_Help%2Ffield-validation.html%23

(I could do that in Clipper in 1985 with field masks). Yes I've rolled my
own but their are things  better done as a standard in an LC library.

When is the IDE that still crashes at least 4 times a day whenever I  run
through more than 5 breakpoints in succession,going to get some love.
What about the Script Editor being SLOWER than molasses - 4 seconds between
key presses.
What about Sqlite engine/library, the 2D physics where we were told there
was a working version over a year ago. The Sound on Linux. What about the
raspberry PI version. I shouldn't need to go on.

I want LCFM  to work like the next guy but please tell us what is going on
and  when.

I'd rather base my decisions on facts rather than airy fairy words.

Are more programmers coming on board or is LCFM the new shiny object?


<RANT ON>
Sorry for the Mr Angry tone , but I'm a little (make that very irritated)
at the moment, as I  just got off the phone to the Bank where the Zombie
script reader who asked me 8 (countem EIGHT questions) to get me past
security
and I was only phoning up to ask why my Card Readers hadn't arrived.
People can have ?70,000 taken out of their accounts with just a sortcode,
name and account number and I am asked for 8 pieces of information to ask
where the card readers  that were ordered nearly 3 weeks ago were!!!
</RANT OFF>

Regards Lagi

p.s.

Two Card readers turned up after my call. - Two more are on their way.
Maybe if i look at downloads ther might be a version 10 Stable of Livecode
;-)



On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 23:25, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> We all need livecode the company to be stable and profitable, so if they
> have to temporarily focus on x to create long term viability, then they
> should do it. Maybe just let everyone know what the plan is....and maybe on
> a release with multiple bug fixes such as 9.05 is important to prioritize
> it a little bit.
>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 3:17 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > On 10/2/19 11:24 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> >
> > > I suspect that the quick updates to LiveCode FM are a sign that the
> > launch
> > > at the FileMaker conference generated a lot of interest and there is
> some
> > > momentum building there. Perhaps they are trying to quickly fill in the
> > > gaps based on that interest so that they can close more licensing
> deals?
> > If
> > > that is the case and they can build that revenue source then it should
> > > ultimately be a good thing for those of us who don't use LiveCode FM.
> It
> > is
> > > unfortunate that LC has to sit mostly idle for so long though.
> > >
> >
> > Indeed. There are currently some 200 or so pull requests waiting in the
> > queue for action.
> >
> > I'm encouraged by this: https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185
> >
> > --
> >   Mark Wieder
> >   ahsoftware at gmail.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Thu Oct  3 09:06:58 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:06:58 -0400
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>

poor comms don't make this better.  one good thing about LCG was that we
had bi-monthly updates.  this year, no comms.
i am less hopeful that the influx of new revenue will matter in the medium
term, because most of the effort will be on the requests that are tied to
the new revenue.
every time this has happened with any other tool we use here, we wait with
disappointment.  then at any sign of effort, we get excited, and then we
seep back into disappointment.
it's feeling like it's time to back-burner LC, too.  there is good energy
from about 50 people, but the mother ship is doing a poor job of managing
that energy.

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 5:56 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> It doesn't take a Sherlock home to work out that if (I hope when!)  LCFM
> works out that the company will have
> an influx of "new blood" with the attendant large increase in yearly
> subscriptions.
>
> My very short post (cut down from my usual rants) was lobbing a tiny hand
> grenade in to arena, and see if someone at LCHQ
> bites and tells us something of consequence rather than "it's going well"
> or LC will be the better for all the new stuff they are working on.
>
> Surely if they have some extra money coming in they can have someone
> working on finishing all the (paid for) promises and milestones.
> (HH and Sean  I feel your pain - HTML5 anyone?). I'm reading between the
> lines but Trevor probably knows how well it's doing - but the rest of use
> are being treated like mushrooms.
>
> "Soon" can be years rather than months and weeks - and typically is years.
> For example Filemaker has a precision of 16 to 400 digits. So that MUST
> have been coded for, will we get that retrofitted in the future .
> I'm not asking because I need 400 digits but you never know.
>
> Filemaker has data binding and field Validation.
>
> https://fmhelp.filemaker.com/help/16/fmp/en/#page/FMP_Help%2Ffield-validation.html%23
>
> (I could do that in Clipper in 1985 with field masks). Yes I've rolled my
> own but their are things  better done as a standard in an LC library.
>
> When is the IDE that still crashes at least 4 times a day whenever I  run
> through more than 5 breakpoints in succession,going to get some love.
> What about the Script Editor being SLOWER than molasses - 4 seconds between
> key presses.
> What about Sqlite engine/library, the 2D physics where we were told there
> was a working version over a year ago. The Sound on Linux. What about the
> raspberry PI version. I shouldn't need to go on.
>
> I want LCFM  to work like the next guy but please tell us what is going on
> and  when.
>
> I'd rather base my decisions on facts rather than airy fairy words.
>
> Are more programmers coming on board or is LCFM the new shiny object?
>
>
> <RANT ON>
> Sorry for the Mr Angry tone , but I'm a little (make that very irritated)
> at the moment, as I  just got off the phone to the Bank where the Zombie
> script reader who asked me 8 (countem EIGHT questions) to get me past
> security
> and I was only phoning up to ask why my Card Readers hadn't arrived.
> People can have ?70,000 taken out of their accounts with just a sortcode,
> name and account number and I am asked for 8 pieces of information to ask
> where the card readers  that were ordered nearly 3 weeks ago were!!!
> </RANT OFF>
>
> Regards Lagi
>
> p.s.
>
> Two Card readers turned up after my call. - Two more are on their way.
> Maybe if i look at downloads ther might be a version 10 Stable of Livecode
> ;-)
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 23:25, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > We all need livecode the company to be stable and profitable, so if they
> > have to temporarily focus on x to create long term viability, then they
> > should do it. Maybe just let everyone know what the plan is....and maybe
> on
> > a release with multiple bug fixes such as 9.05 is important to prioritize
> > it a little bit.
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 3:17 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 10/2/19 11:24 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> > >
> > > > I suspect that the quick updates to LiveCode FM are a sign that the
> > > launch
> > > > at the FileMaker conference generated a lot of interest and there is
> > some
> > > > momentum building there. Perhaps they are trying to quickly fill in
> the
> > > > gaps based on that interest so that they can close more licensing
> > deals?
> > > If
> > > > that is the case and they can build that revenue source then it
> should
> > > > ultimately be a good thing for those of us who don't use LiveCode FM.
> > It
> > > is
> > > > unfortunate that LC has to sit mostly idle for so long though.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Indeed. There are currently some 200 or so pull requests waiting in the
> > > queue for action.
> > >
> > > I'm encouraged by this: https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185
> > >
> > > --
> > >   Mark Wieder
> > >   ahsoftware at gmail.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tom Glod
> > Founder & Developer
> > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > Office:226-706-9339
> > Mobile:226-706-9793
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From danoldboy at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 09:31:55 2019
From: danoldboy at gmail.com (Dan Brown)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:31:55 +0100
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sure that LC HQ would have loved to solely preside over the language
and a flourishing opensource and enterprise community that kept the lights
on . Unfortunately that just hasn't happened since the kickstarter
campaign. Without the LCFM  lifeline I think they may have ceased to exist
in the medium term.



On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 2:08 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> poor comms don't make this better.  one good thing about LCG was that we
> had bi-monthly updates.  this year, no comms.
> i am less hopeful that the influx of new revenue will matter in the medium
> term, because most of the effort will be on the requests that are tied to
> the new revenue.
> every time this has happened with any other tool we use here, we wait with
> disappointment.  then at any sign of effort, we get excited, and then we
> seep back into disappointment.
> it's feeling like it's time to back-burner LC, too.  there is good energy
> from about 50 people, but the mother ship is doing a poor job of managing
> that energy.
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 5:56 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > It doesn't take a Sherlock home to work out that if (I hope when!)  LCFM
> > works out that the company will have
> > an influx of "new blood" with the attendant large increase in yearly
> > subscriptions.
> >
> > My very short post (cut down from my usual rants) was lobbing a tiny hand
> > grenade in to arena, and see if someone at LCHQ
> > bites and tells us something of consequence rather than "it's going well"
> > or LC will be the better for all the new stuff they are working on.
> >
> > Surely if they have some extra money coming in they can have someone
> > working on finishing all the (paid for) promises and milestones.
> > (HH and Sean  I feel your pain - HTML5 anyone?). I'm reading between the
> > lines but Trevor probably knows how well it's doing - but the rest of use
> > are being treated like mushrooms.
> >
> > "Soon" can be years rather than months and weeks - and typically is
> years.
> > For example Filemaker has a precision of 16 to 400 digits. So that MUST
> > have been coded for, will we get that retrofitted in the future .
> > I'm not asking because I need 400 digits but you never know.
> >
> > Filemaker has data binding and field Validation.
> >
> >
> https://fmhelp.filemaker.com/help/16/fmp/en/#page/FMP_Help%2Ffield-validation.html%23
> >
> > (I could do that in Clipper in 1985 with field masks). Yes I've rolled my
> > own but their are things  better done as a standard in an LC library.
> >
> > When is the IDE that still crashes at least 4 times a day whenever I  run
> > through more than 5 breakpoints in succession,going to get some love.
> > What about the Script Editor being SLOWER than molasses - 4 seconds
> between
> > key presses.
> > What about Sqlite engine/library, the 2D physics where we were told there
> > was a working version over a year ago. The Sound on Linux. What about the
> > raspberry PI version. I shouldn't need to go on.
> >
> > I want LCFM  to work like the next guy but please tell us what is going
> on
> > and  when.
> >
> > I'd rather base my decisions on facts rather than airy fairy words.
> >
> > Are more programmers coming on board or is LCFM the new shiny object?
> >
> >
> > <RANT ON>
> > Sorry for the Mr Angry tone , but I'm a little (make that very irritated)
> > at the moment, as I  just got off the phone to the Bank where the Zombie
> > script reader who asked me 8 (countem EIGHT questions) to get me past
> > security
> > and I was only phoning up to ask why my Card Readers hadn't arrived.
> > People can have ?70,000 taken out of their accounts with just a sortcode,
> > name and account number and I am asked for 8 pieces of information to ask
> > where the card readers  that were ordered nearly 3 weeks ago were!!!
> > </RANT OFF>
> >
> > Regards Lagi
> >
> > p.s.
> >
> > Two Card readers turned up after my call. - Two more are on their way.
> > Maybe if i look at downloads ther might be a version 10 Stable of
> Livecode
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 23:25, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > We all need livecode the company to be stable and profitable, so if
> they
> > > have to temporarily focus on x to create long term viability, then they
> > > should do it. Maybe just let everyone know what the plan is....and
> maybe
> > on
> > > a release with multiple bug fixes such as 9.05 is important to
> prioritize
> > > it a little bit.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 3:17 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 10/2/19 11:24 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I suspect that the quick updates to LiveCode FM are a sign that the
> > > > launch
> > > > > at the FileMaker conference generated a lot of interest and there
> is
> > > some
> > > > > momentum building there. Perhaps they are trying to quickly fill in
> > the
> > > > > gaps based on that interest so that they can close more licensing
> > > deals?
> > > > If
> > > > > that is the case and they can build that revenue source then it
> > should
> > > > > ultimately be a good thing for those of us who don't use LiveCode
> FM.
> > > It
> > > > is
> > > > > unfortunate that LC has to sit mostly idle for so long though.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Indeed. There are currently some 200 or so pull requests waiting in
> the
> > > > queue for action.
> > > >
> > > > I'm encouraged by this:
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >   Mark Wieder
> > > >   ahsoftware at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > > subscription preferences:
> > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Tom Glod
> > > Founder & Developer
> > > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > > Office:226-706-9339
> > > Mobile:226-706-9793
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>    and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From brahma at hindu.org  Thu Oct  3 09:38:58 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:38:58 +0000
Subject: Background Audio in Mobile Apps
Message-ID: <24BCB8C0-8B38-4657-9543-640B25256A37@hindu.org>

One of my users says that a previous version of our app, as long is it remained open, continued to play audio, even when they went to another app..

"While I am listening audio?s in the Siva Siva app, new bug:  Automatically stopping audio while screen off or moved one app to another app Or screen in iOS. It does not continue, like the music app."

He says this was working in a previous version.

I have checked in the standalone, (have done so from the beginning through previous versions)

_ Enable Background Execution
_ Background Audio

Are these now "broken"?

BR


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct  3 10:33:59 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:33:59 +0000
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05F2FD95-D3D2-4D1B-A402-9DC20661ED0A@iotecdigital.com>

Lagi, taking Sherlock home is a bad idea. I took him home once. He started doing experiments on top of the kitchen table. The last straw was when he shot holes in the wall because he was bored. I said, "HOLMES! That's it! Get out now!"

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 02:55 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> It doesn't take a Sherlock home to work out that if (I hope when!)  LCFM
> works out that the company will have
> an influx of "new blood" with the attendant large increase in yearly
> subscriptions.




From dalton.calford at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 10:36:27 2019
From: dalton.calford at gmail.com (Dalton Calford)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 10:36:27 -0400
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANY9Gwpgc7-8psMrifGbE+KfqSaF4-BeP5xXc9iKeTxvYWdDTA@mail.gmail.com>

I first bought livecode back in 2010, they had lots of hype and promises at
the time, most of the promises did not really start to arrive until the
open source kickstarter (such as version control).
I have tried to make sense of the code base, in order to add support for a
few things, such as native support for a new sql engine (firebird) but
between the products unstable UI (at least on linux) and the not-really
open source elements of the tool, stopped me from investigating it further,
especially since I can use Lazarus to generate cross platform apps with a
fully open source tool set.
I gave it one last try with the LC 9 release, but, the lack of development
and the split of support from 9 to 9.5 within months of my getting the
license, tells me that, as a developer, there is little reason for me to
try to learn the language.   I know of many others who tried and walked
away from livecode, mostly due to the way they have managed it.
I have been watching for awhile since I was a fan of hypercard back in the
day, but, from the viewpoint of a wysiwyg design, cross platform, native
compile environment, livecode is not something I would recommend to anyone.
I have hopped that would change, but, after 9 years, nothing has really
changed.


On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 09:33, Dan Brown via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I'm sure that LC HQ would have loved to solely preside over the language
> and a flourishing opensource and enterprise community that kept the lights
> on . Unfortunately that just hasn't happened since the kickstarter
> campaign. Without the LCFM  lifeline I think they may have ceased to exist
> in the medium term.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 2:08 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > poor comms don't make this better.  one good thing about LCG was that we
> > had bi-monthly updates.  this year, no comms.
> > i am less hopeful that the influx of new revenue will matter in the
> medium
> > term, because most of the effort will be on the requests that are tied to
> > the new revenue.
> > every time this has happened with any other tool we use here, we wait
> with
> > disappointment.  then at any sign of effort, we get excited, and then we
> > seep back into disappointment.
> > it's feeling like it's time to back-burner LC, too.  there is good energy
> > from about 50 people, but the mother ship is doing a poor job of managing
> > that energy.
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 5:56 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Tom,
> > >
> > > It doesn't take a Sherlock home to work out that if (I hope when!)
> LCFM
> > > works out that the company will have
> > > an influx of "new blood" with the attendant large increase in yearly
> > > subscriptions.
> > >
> > > My very short post (cut down from my usual rants) was lobbing a tiny
> hand
> > > grenade in to arena, and see if someone at LCHQ
> > > bites and tells us something of consequence rather than "it's going
> well"
> > > or LC will be the better for all the new stuff they are working on.
> > >
> > > Surely if they have some extra money coming in they can have someone
> > > working on finishing all the (paid for) promises and milestones.
> > > (HH and Sean  I feel your pain - HTML5 anyone?). I'm reading between
> the
> > > lines but Trevor probably knows how well it's doing - but the rest of
> use
> > > are being treated like mushrooms.
> > >
> > > "Soon" can be years rather than months and weeks - and typically is
> > years.
> > > For example Filemaker has a precision of 16 to 400 digits. So that MUST
> > > have been coded for, will we get that retrofitted in the future .
> > > I'm not asking because I need 400 digits but you never know.
> > >
> > > Filemaker has data binding and field Validation.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://fmhelp.filemaker.com/help/16/fmp/en/#page/FMP_Help%2Ffield-validation.html%23
> > >
> > > (I could do that in Clipper in 1985 with field masks). Yes I've rolled
> my
> > > own but their are things  better done as a standard in an LC library.
> > >
> > > When is the IDE that still crashes at least 4 times a day whenever I
> run
> > > through more than 5 breakpoints in succession,going to get some love.
> > > What about the Script Editor being SLOWER than molasses - 4 seconds
> > between
> > > key presses.
> > > What about Sqlite engine/library, the 2D physics where we were told
> there
> > > was a working version over a year ago. The Sound on Linux. What about
> the
> > > raspberry PI version. I shouldn't need to go on.
> > >
> > > I want LCFM  to work like the next guy but please tell us what is going
> > on
> > > and  when.
> > >
> > > I'd rather base my decisions on facts rather than airy fairy words.
> > >
> > > Are more programmers coming on board or is LCFM the new shiny object?
> > >
> > >
> > > <RANT ON>
> > > Sorry for the Mr Angry tone , but I'm a little (make that very
> irritated)
> > > at the moment, as I  just got off the phone to the Bank where the
> Zombie
> > > script reader who asked me 8 (countem EIGHT questions) to get me past
> > > security
> > > and I was only phoning up to ask why my Card Readers hadn't arrived.
> > > People can have ?70,000 taken out of their accounts with just a
> sortcode,
> > > name and account number and I am asked for 8 pieces of information to
> ask
> > > where the card readers  that were ordered nearly 3 weeks ago were!!!
> > > </RANT OFF>
> > >
> > > Regards Lagi
> > >
> > > p.s.
> > >
> > > Two Card readers turned up after my call. - Two more are on their way.
> > > Maybe if i look at downloads ther might be a version 10 Stable of
> > Livecode
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 23:25, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > We all need livecode the company to be stable and profitable, so if
> > they
> > > > have to temporarily focus on x to create long term viability, then
> they
> > > > should do it. Maybe just let everyone know what the plan is....and
> > maybe
> > > on
> > > > a release with multiple bug fixes such as 9.05 is important to
> > prioritize
> > > > it a little bit.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 3:17 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 10/2/19 11:24 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I suspect that the quick updates to LiveCode FM are a sign that
> the
> > > > > launch
> > > > > > at the FileMaker conference generated a lot of interest and there
> > is
> > > > some
> > > > > > momentum building there. Perhaps they are trying to quickly fill
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > gaps based on that interest so that they can close more licensing
> > > > deals?
> > > > > If
> > > > > > that is the case and they can build that revenue source then it
> > > should
> > > > > > ultimately be a good thing for those of us who don't use LiveCode
> > FM.
> > > > It
> > > > > is
> > > > > > unfortunate that LC has to sit mostly idle for so long though.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed. There are currently some 200 or so pull requests waiting in
> > the
> > > > > queue for action.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm encouraged by this:
> > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >   Mark Wieder
> > > > >   ahsoftware at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > > > subscription preferences:
> > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Tom Glod
> > > > Founder & Developer
> > > > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > > > Office:226-706-9339
> > > > Mobile:226-706-9793
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > > subscription preferences:
> > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> >    and did a little diving.
> > And God said, "This is good."
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct  3 10:43:03 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:43:03 +0000
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CANY9Gwpgc7-8psMrifGbE+KfqSaF4-BeP5xXc9iKeTxvYWdDTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANY9Gwpgc7-8psMrifGbE+KfqSaF4-BeP5xXc9iKeTxvYWdDTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <76F3ED16-7EDC-4451-A70C-7E5424C340CB@iotecdigital.com>

Wow. I have the opposite experience. I think that t he LC Dev team is more responsive than any other I have ever experienced. I've been in IT for a really long time, and have dealt with a number of apps and dev environments. I've seen more feature developments in LC than all the rest combined. 

People should really lighten up on these devs. Most of the issues have workarounds, and frankly those issues should take a back seat to the really serious ones. I've been waiting for a good long while for the devs to implement a very simple fix in t he DG library to allow nested behaviors in datagrids. But I have a workaround I have to implement for each version I DL. It's no big deal. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 07:36 , Dalton Calford via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I first bought livecode back in 2010, they had lots of hype and promises at
> the time, most of the promises did not really start to arrive until the
> open source kickstarter (such as version control).
> I have tried to make sense of the code base, in order to add support for a
> few things, such as native support for a new sql engine (firebird) but
> between the products unstable UI (at least on linux) and the not-really
> open source elements of the tool, stopped me from investigating it further,
> especially since I can use Lazarus to generate cross platform apps with a
> fully open source tool set.
> I gave it one last try with the LC 9 release, but, the lack of development
> and the split of support from 9 to 9.5 within months of my getting the
> license, tells me that, as a developer, there is little reason for me to
> try to learn the language.   I know of many others who tried and walked
> away from livecode, mostly due to the way they have managed it.
> I have been watching for awhile since I was a fan of hypercard back in the
> day, but, from the viewpoint of a wysiwyg design, cross platform, native
> compile environment, livecode is not something I would recommend to anyone.
> I have hopped that would change, but, after 9 years, nothing has really
> changed.




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct  3 10:56:30 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:56:30 +0000
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CANY9Gwpgc7-8psMrifGbE+KfqSaF4-BeP5xXc9iKeTxvYWdDTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANY9Gwpgc7-8psMrifGbE+KfqSaF4-BeP5xXc9iKeTxvYWdDTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EF4BB740-EA7B-4127-BBC8-1B14EA73BEAC@iotecdigital.com>

The code looks like Pascal. Variable typing, declaration and scoping. Not english like. Perhaps you missed the whole point of Livecode, and it's predecessors Hypercard, Supercard and Metacard. Livecode is the alternative to environments like Lazarus, great for someone with the time (and probably the training and experience) to program in a mid level language, but not for someone like me, who actually began to learn Pascal years ago, and gave it up when I realized how much time and effort it was going to take to learn, when all I ever wanted to do was cobble together some utility apps to help with my real job of managing information. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 07:36 , Dalton Calford via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> especially since I can use Lazarus to generate cross platform apps with a
> fully open source tool set.




From alain.vezina at logilangue.com  Thu Oct  3 11:01:47 2019
From: alain.vezina at logilangue.com (Alain Vezina)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:01:47 -0400
Subject: HTML5 
Message-ID: <BF0BA21D-B553-4056-AD95-5D018C887E01@logilangue.com>

How come when I test my app in the developement test using my browser, everything is ok. and
when I test the same app as standalone in my web site, nothing appear after 3 or 4 minutes?

My standalone-commercial-9.0.2.js is 28.5 Mo. I guess that is the reason...

Alain Vezina
logilangue.com


From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Thu Oct  3 11:42:47 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 10:42:47 -0500
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG-hZQkXn=KeG_K=TRXR1Hm25jx6Maf_GaGJ-MFFaobysw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 4:56 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> I'm reading between the
> lines but Trevor probably knows how well it's doing - but the rest of use
> are being treated like mushrooms.
>

Hi Lagi,

I do not have any additional information about how well the FM project or
the company is doing. The last update I received was what others heard at
the LiveCode Conference. My thoughts are based on what I think I would do
if I was in their place.

While I make my business decisions based on what LiveCode can do now (a
wise senior engineer once counseled me not to base my business on what
other companies *might* do), I am very interested in the company's health
as the LiveCode platform affects my ability to deliver great software using
LiveCode in the future. LiveCode is a very ambitious project. The number of
platforms they are trying to support requires an enormous amount of
planning, programming, and other resources to create, maintain, and
improve. I am heavily invested in LiveCode as a platform so I want very
much for the company to have healthy revenue streams.

Based on what I've heard, the LiveCode FM product addresses a very
important problem that companies are willing to pay recurring licensing
fees to overcome. It is a wonderful thing when a company can find a large
pool of customers that have a problem they are willing pay to them you to
solve. So while I'm less enthusiastic about development on LiveCode slowing
down right now, I support the company pursuing this opportunity.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Thu Oct  3 11:47:12 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 10:47:12 -0500
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG9+_gWfENuWVKHVNM0O8+dvNPJtN6nKbC11uUTUe=Ru-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 2:01 PM hh via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> > Trevor D. wrote:
> > If that is the case and they can build that revenue source
> > then it should ultimately be a good thing for those of us
> > who don't use LiveCode FM. It is unfortunate that LC has
> > to sit mostly idle for so long though.
>
> All true. But will the idle state of LC ever change again?
>

I believe that it will if LiveCode FM gets traction. I may be wrong.


> Filemaker is updating its features fast and so LiveCode will
> FOREVER try to reach their goal of supporting 99% of the FM
> features: "Version 1.2 of LCFM covers approximately 78% of
> the total FileMaker feature set" ...
>

Creating a great product is a wonderful journey that can go on
indefinitely given the right variables. If LiveCode FM generates lots of
revenue then it will continue on. And hopefully fuel the development of the
underlying technology (LiveCode) that LiveCode FM is built on.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct  3 12:13:55 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:13:55 +0000
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG9+_gWfENuWVKHVNM0O8+dvNPJtN6nKbC11uUTUe=Ru-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
 <CAHg3tG9+_gWfENuWVKHVNM0O8+dvNPJtN6nKbC11uUTUe=Ru-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <205BA295-835E-4915-9ABA-EEC8B00B9842@iotecdigital.com>

I agree with Trevor here, but I'd like to interject a bit. I have 2 reasons I declined to use the Filemaker model many years ago. One was that I could not code procedurally. Coding was done using graphic objects whose properties you had to open and edit, then save. Easy I suppose for a non-coder, but VERY time consuming, especially when you needed to find out where something was going wrong! Perhaps that has been addressed in Livecode for Filemaker. 

The other thing was it's licensing model. To have LOCAL USERS run a utility app I created, they each needed to purchase a license for Filemaker Client, or else I had to run Filemaker Server, again licensed per user. The cost of widespread distribution in house or commercially made it completely untenable for me. 

I'm not sure if licensing has been addressed. If not then I think we can expect Filemaker to maintain it's market position without too much future growth. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 08:47 , Trevor DeVore via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 2:01 PM hh via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>>> Trevor D. wrote:
>>> If that is the case and they can build that revenue source
>>> then it should ultimately be a good thing for those of us
>>> who don't use LiveCode FM. It is unfortunate that LC has
>>> to sit mostly idle for so long though.
>> 
>> All true. But will the idle state of LC ever change again?
>> 
> 
> I believe that it will if LiveCode FM gets traction. I may be wrong.
> 
> 
>> Filemaker is updating its features fast and so LiveCode will
>> FOREVER try to reach their goal of supporting 99% of the FM
>> features: "Version 1.2 of LCFM covers approximately 78% of
>> the total FileMaker feature set" ...
>> 
> 
> Creating a great product is a wonderful journey that can go on
> indefinitely given the right variables. If LiveCode FM generates lots of
> revenue then it will continue on. And hopefully fuel the development of the
> underlying technology (LiveCode) that LiveCode FM is built on.
> 
> -- 
> Trevor DeVore
> ScreenSteps
> www.screensteps.com




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Thu Oct  3 12:15:36 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:15:36 -0700
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG9+_gWfENuWVKHVNM0O8+dvNPJtN6nKbC11uUTUe=Ru-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
 <CAHg3tG9+_gWfENuWVKHVNM0O8+dvNPJtN6nKbC11uUTUe=Ru-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dec9b9fd-ea6f-f49f-247d-5c61e985b102@sonic.net>

On 10/3/19 8:47 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:

>> All true. But will the idle state of LC ever change again?
>>
> 
> I believe that it will if LiveCode FM gets traction. I may be wrong.

Additionally, the patch that Mark Waddingham just implemented related to 
the frozen pool (I am the walrus?) affecting debugging is encouraging.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From heather at livecode.com  Thu Oct  3 12:25:47 2019
From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:25:47 +0100
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
Message-ID: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>

Dear List Folks,

I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder, but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger crashing that was reported not long ago.

9.5.1 is well under way and shouldn't be long now, bringing the needed updates for iOS among other things. I'm not going to even hint at a release date of next week for this, its certain to cause a #fail.

9.6 is in progress with some nice new features and a first dp is not far off. Real Soon Now :).

Yes, it has taken a little longer than usual between releases. A major reason for this was the server move, which impacted our build bots and delayed all test builds. Frustrating, but necessary work, and thankfully that is all done now and everything is working smoothly again. One does not appreciate the full complexity of these build bots until one attempts to move them intact from one place to another.

The suggestion that all our efforts will remain with LCFM Native and never bear fruit for LiveCode itself is based on a misconception, an idea that somehow we are working on something other than LiveCode. We're not. Everything we are building for LCFM Native is built with LiveCode. We cannot do it without improving LiveCode. Those improvements will come back to the community (many already have). Hermann... its not an infinite effort. FileMaker is very much a finite set of code, with relatively slow changes. 

I hope you will like 9.0.5, 9.5.1 and 9.6, we're looking forward to bringing them to you. 

Best Regards,

Heather


Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com






From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct  3 12:31:30 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:31:30 +0000
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <3F73D9CC-1FC4-4E74-8A2D-53F4E7C6987D@iotecdigital.com>

For my part I love what you guys do. As I've mentioned before, Livecode has upped my value to my employer, as they see that I am capable of more than what they hider me to do. It may even have been responsible for a couple raises in the recent past. 

Also as I have mentioned before, I have never seen a company so responsive to it's users, and also so transparent. We have people *actually* involved in the development process come on list and tell us what they are doing and planning. Seriously, you guys do not get enough credit for how hard you work. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 09:25 , Heather Laine via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear List Folks,
> 
> I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder, but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger crashing that was reported not long ago.
> 
> 9.5.1 is well under way and shouldn't be long now, bringing the needed updates for iOS among other things. I'm not going to even hint at a release date of next week for this, its certain to cause a #fail.
> 
> 9.6 is in progress with some nice new features and a first dp is not far off. Real Soon Now :).
> 
> Yes, it has taken a little longer than usual between releases. A major reason for this was the server move, which impacted our build bots and delayed all test builds. Frustrating, but necessary work, and thankfully that is all done now and everything is working smoothly again. One does not appreciate the full complexity of these build bots until one attempts to move them intact from one place to another.
> 
> The suggestion that all our efforts will remain with LCFM Native and never bear fruit for LiveCode itself is based on a misconception, an idea that somehow we are working on something other than LiveCode. We're not. Everything we are building for LCFM Native is built with LiveCode. We cannot do it without improving LiveCode. Those improvements will come back to the community (many already have). Hermann... its not an infinite effort. FileMaker is very much a finite set of code, with relatively slow changes. 
> 
> I hope you will like 9.0.5, 9.5.1 and 9.6, we're looking forward to bringing them to you. 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Heather
> 
> 
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com




From phil at pdslabs.net  Thu Oct  3 12:39:33 2019
From: phil at pdslabs.net (Phil Davis)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:39:33 -0700
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <3F73D9CC-1FC4-4E74-8A2D-53F4E7C6987D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
 <3F73D9CC-1FC4-4E74-8A2D-53F4E7C6987D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <b48ec91f-c841-eee3-4943-8d1a51095a13@pdslabs.net>

Amen Bob!
Phil Davis


On 10/3/19 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> For my part I love what you guys do. As I've mentioned before, Livecode has upped my value to my employer, as they see that I am capable of more than what they hider me to do. It may even have been responsible for a couple raises in the recent past.
>
> Also as I have mentioned before, I have never seen a company so responsive to it's users, and also so transparent. We have people *actually* involved in the development process come on list and tell us what they are doing and planning. Seriously, you guys do not get enough credit for how hard you work.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 09:25 , Heather Laine via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear List Folks,
>>
>> I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder, but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger crashing that was reported not long ago.
>>
>> 9.5.1 is well under way and shouldn't be long now, bringing the needed updates for iOS among other things. I'm not going to even hint at a release date of next week for this, its certain to cause a #fail.
>>
>> 9.6 is in progress with some nice new features and a first dp is not far off. Real Soon Now :).
>>
>> Yes, it has taken a little longer than usual between releases. A major reason for this was the server move, which impacted our build bots and delayed all test builds. Frustrating, but necessary work, and thankfully that is all done now and everything is working smoothly again. One does not appreciate the full complexity of these build bots until one attempts to move them intact from one place to another.
>>
>> The suggestion that all our efforts will remain with LCFM Native and never bear fruit for LiveCode itself is based on a misconception, an idea that somehow we are working on something other than LiveCode. We're not. Everything we are building for LCFM Native is built with LiveCode. We cannot do it without improving LiveCode. Those improvements will come back to the community (many already have). Hermann... its not an infinite effort. FileMaker is very much a finite set of code, with relatively slow changes.
>>
>> I hope you will like 9.0.5, 9.5.1 and 9.6, we're looking forward to bringing them to you.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Heather
>>
>>
>> Heather Laine
>> Customer Services Manager
>> LiveCode Ltd
>> www.livecode.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>

-- 
Phil Davis
503-307-4363




From marksmithhfx at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 12:46:32 2019
From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:46:32 +0100
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <3F73D9CC-1FC4-4E74-8A2D-53F4E7C6987D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
 <3F73D9CC-1FC4-4E74-8A2D-53F4E7C6987D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <FBF5161D-2CF4-4B42-BA13-14874AEBC885@gmail.com>

Yes, most certainly agreed

> On Oct 3, 2019, at 5:31 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> For my part I love what you guys do. As I've mentioned before, Livecode has upped my value to my employer, as they see that I am capable of more than what they hider me to do. It may even have been responsible for a couple raises in the recent past. 
> 
> Also as I have mentioned before, I have never seen a company so responsive to it's users, and also so transparent. We have people *actually* involved in the development process come on list and tell us what they are doing and planning. Seriously, you guys do not get enough credit for how hard you work. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 09:25 , Heather Laine via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear List Folks,
>> 
>> I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder, but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger crashing that was reported not long ago.
>> 
>> 9.5.1 is well under way and shouldn't be long now, bringing the needed updates for iOS among other things. I'm not going to even hint at a release date of next week for this, its certain to cause a #fail.
>> 
>> 9.6 is in progress with some nice new features and a first dp is not far off. Real Soon Now :).
>> 
>> Yes, it has taken a little longer than usual between releases. A major reason for this was the server move, which impacted our build bots and delayed all test builds. Frustrating, but necessary work, and thankfully that is all done now and everything is working smoothly again. One does not appreciate the full complexity of these build bots until one attempts to move them intact from one place to another.
>> 
>> The suggestion that all our efforts will remain with LCFM Native and never bear fruit for LiveCode itself is based on a misconception, an idea that somehow we are working on something other than LiveCode. We're not. Everything we are building for LCFM Native is built with LiveCode. We cannot do it without improving LiveCode. Those improvements will come back to the community (many already have). Hermann... its not an infinite effort. FileMaker is very much a finite set of code, with relatively slow changes. 
>> 
>> I hope you will like 9.0.5, 9.5.1 and 9.6, we're looking forward to bringing them to you. 
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Heather
>> 
>> 
>> Heather Laine
>> Customer Services Manager
>> LiveCode Ltd
>> www.livecode.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From e.beugelaar at me.com  Thu Oct  3 13:47:35 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 19:47:35 +0200
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <dec9b9fd-ea6f-f49f-247d-5c61e985b102@sonic.net>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
 <CAHg3tG9+_gWfENuWVKHVNM0O8+dvNPJtN6nKbC11uUTUe=Ru-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <dec9b9fd-ea6f-f49f-247d-5c61e985b102@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4E0B7DE3-59B7-4076-9D74-1C910D1D93FF@me.com>

Does anyone know if you fork the Community Edition of LiveCode, solve bugs (e.g. IDE-related, plugins etc.), compile  the LC version again and integrate it to the Indy version?
Or is this just not possible because of the closed source of the engine?

?On 03/10/2019, 18:16, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Wieder via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    On 10/3/19 8:47 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
    
    >> All true. But will the idle state of LC ever change again?
    >>
    > 
    > I believe that it will if LiveCode FM gets traction. I may be wrong.
    
    Additionally, the patch that Mark Waddingham just implemented related to 
    the frozen pool (I am the walrus?) affecting debugging is encouraging.
    
    -- 
      Mark Wieder
      ahsoftware at gmail.com
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From mkoob at rogers.com  Thu Oct  3 13:48:12 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:48:12 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
Message-ID: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>

Hi

I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows. 

I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 

Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again. 

With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered. 

Any suggestions? What are people using?

Thanks in advance. 

Martin Koob

Sent from my iPhone



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 13:53:10 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 20:53:10 +0300
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9bdcddc-2c2a-d13e-a29b-61a284d8a98e@gmail.com>

Aha: it's "Mr Mouth", late to the party, but well furnished with virtual 
whisky and raxin up tae an unco raj state.

And, much against my inner inclinations I will put the following in 
English (although I have always viewed
English as a cold, sterile language, while Scots speaks directly from 
the heart);

All the "bull" (oops, that's American) about "Community" is bull, no 
more, no less.

The "good" folk at LiveCode Central cherry pick from the "community's" 
gripes/comments/feedback/ideas
to serve their ends, and exclude things that, while in many cases being 
extremely pertinent, do not serve
or further whatever goals they have set their eyes on.

As an ex-cult member (Yes, really) I know all about top-down systems and 
what the results are: never
either equable or effective. And, as an ex-cult member I know that the 
high-ups got there either by chance,
by extremely dirty politics, or because the guru "fancied the shape of 
their knees."

I spent an awful lot of time and energy working to release other people 
from a variety of cults; so my
understanding of the mechanisms of these organisations is fairly good.
-----

Now, as someone who pushed for years for LiveCode to release a truly 
free version of their fantastic language/
ide/programming package I was 100% ecstatic when the open source version 
was released.

I have NEVER bought into the "Community" crap: because that is what it 
is: crap!

There is a community insofar as many people who use LiveCode for various 
reasons help each other
with things they get stuck with: and that, as far as it goes, is super.

A "Community" as endlessly burbled on by LiveCode Central is a typical 
cultic system: "you come
up with bright ideas and we take what we like and what serve our 
interests and overlook what is
inconvenient."

Just recently I read about the British/English parliament (which has 
been called the "Mother" of parliaments)
described as the "Madam" of parliaments: presumably pimping its members 
and its voting public like nobody's business.

LiveCode, if it wants to keep its "Community" happy has to start 
treating its community of established
programmers/coders with respect and stop riding roughshod over its 
complaints and bug reports that have sat on record for donkey's ages 
without being addressed: or just "cut the crap" and stop mentioning the 
word "community" and all the rather fake attempts at cuddly-feely 
kissy-wissy stuff that isn't anything it is
stated to be.

Anybody with any sense of "smell" know that LiveCode have had to move 
from their "toney" offices up "there"
to somewhere scaffy down "there", and the reason is they have buggered 
up their public relations.

How come what is a wonderful language/ide/programming package that is 
ideal for High school kids is ONLY
used in a few schools in Scotland and a few wierdos (self included) 
elsewhere?

I contributed my "Widow's mite" to a LiveCode fundraiser and have seen 
that some of those promises have been entirely empty: so, why should I 
and many more, who have invested a lot of time and effort getting to 
know this language stump up anything further when we are treated with 
patrician disdain, total disregard for our suggestions, advice and so forth?

And who, forbye, had the idea that Filemaker was so damned important 
that everything else had to be put on standby?

After all, a trip to the Filemaker webpage tells us that (Wow! They've 
revived the name 'Claris'), this is a package
used on Macintosh computers only: well "f*ck me with a shovel", who uses 
Macintosh? about 7% of computer users in? what racists like to call "the 
civilised world."

I develop a program called "Devawriter Pro" with LiveCode for 
Sanskritists to digitise Sanskrit: I make about $200
a year on it (something to do with being an ex-cult member): I have 
absolutely NO illusions about it:
I'd make more selling my body round the docks in Aberdeen (might even 
have more fun). But, unlike
LiveCode, I don't rely on Devawriter to stock my fridge, and I don't 
have delusions of grandeur about it
being " Hari Nama, Hari Nama, Hari Nama, Kalyau, Kalyau, Kalyau nastyeva 
gatir anyataha" and kicking
the pants out of all the other programming suites out there.

A while back, Kevin Miller developed an innovative front-end to 
Metacard, and somewhere between that point
and now someone or other seems to have badly lost the plot.

On 3.10.19 16:31, Dan Brown via use-livecode wrote:
> I'm sure that LC HQ would have loved to solely preside over the language
> and a flourishing opensource and enterprise community that kept the lights
> on . Unfortunately that just hasn't happened since the kickstarter
> campaign. Without the LCFM  lifeline I think they may have ceased to exist
> in the medium term.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 2:08 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> poor comms don't make this better.  one good thing about LCG was that we
>> had bi-monthly updates.  this year, no comms.
>> i am less hopeful that the influx of new revenue will matter in the medium
>> term, because most of the effort will be on the requests that are tied to
>> the new revenue.
>> every time this has happened with any other tool we use here, we wait with
>> disappointment.  then at any sign of effort, we get excited, and then we
>> seep back into disappointment.
>> it's feeling like it's time to back-burner LC, too.  there is good energy
>> from about 50 people, but the mother ship is doing a poor job of managing
>> that energy.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 5:56 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tom,
>>>
>>> It doesn't take a Sherlock home to work out that if (I hope when!)  LCFM
>>> works out that the company will have
>>> an influx of "new blood" with the attendant large increase in yearly
>>> subscriptions.
>>>
>>> My very short post (cut down from my usual rants) was lobbing a tiny hand
>>> grenade in to arena, and see if someone at LCHQ
>>> bites and tells us something of consequence rather than "it's going well"
>>> or LC will be the better for all the new stuff they are working on.
>>>
>>> Surely if they have some extra money coming in they can have someone
>>> working on finishing all the (paid for) promises and milestones.
>>> (HH and Sean  I feel your pain - HTML5 anyone?). I'm reading between the
>>> lines but Trevor probably knows how well it's doing - but the rest of use
>>> are being treated like mushrooms.
>>>
>>> "Soon" can be years rather than months and weeks - and typically is
>> years.
>>> For example Filemaker has a precision of 16 to 400 digits. So that MUST
>>> have been coded for, will we get that retrofitted in the future .
>>> I'm not asking because I need 400 digits but you never know.
>>>
>>> Filemaker has data binding and field Validation.
>>>
>>>
>> https://fmhelp.filemaker.com/help/16/fmp/en/#page/FMP_Help%2Ffield-validation.html%23
>>> (I could do that in Clipper in 1985 with field masks). Yes I've rolled my
>>> own but their are things  better done as a standard in an LC library.
>>>
>>> When is the IDE that still crashes at least 4 times a day whenever I  run
>>> through more than 5 breakpoints in succession,going to get some love.
>>> What about the Script Editor being SLOWER than molasses - 4 seconds
>> between
>>> key presses.
>>> What about Sqlite engine/library, the 2D physics where we were told there
>>> was a working version over a year ago. The Sound on Linux. What about the
>>> raspberry PI version. I shouldn't need to go on.
>>>
>>> I want LCFM  to work like the next guy but please tell us what is going
>> on
>>> and  when.
>>>
>>> I'd rather base my decisions on facts rather than airy fairy words.
>>>
>>> Are more programmers coming on board or is LCFM the new shiny object?
>>>
>>>
>>> <RANT ON>
>>> Sorry for the Mr Angry tone , but I'm a little (make that very irritated)
>>> at the moment, as I  just got off the phone to the Bank where the Zombie
>>> script reader who asked me 8 (countem EIGHT questions) to get me past
>>> security
>>> and I was only phoning up to ask why my Card Readers hadn't arrived.
>>> People can have ?70,000 taken out of their accounts with just a sortcode,
>>> name and account number and I am asked for 8 pieces of information to ask
>>> where the card readers  that were ordered nearly 3 weeks ago were!!!
>>> </RANT OFF>
>>>
>>> Regards Lagi
>>>
>>> p.s.
>>>
>>> Two Card readers turned up after my call. - Two more are on their way.
>>> Maybe if i look at downloads ther might be a version 10 Stable of
>> Livecode
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 23:25, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We all need livecode the company to be stable and profitable, so if
>> they
>>>> have to temporarily focus on x to create long term viability, then they
>>>> should do it. Maybe just let everyone know what the plan is....and
>> maybe
>>> on
>>>> a release with multiple bug fixes such as 9.05 is important to
>> prioritize
>>>> it a little bit.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 3:17 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/2/19 11:24 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that the quick updates to LiveCode FM are a sign that the
>>>>> launch
>>>>>> at the FileMaker conference generated a lot of interest and there
>> is
>>>> some
>>>>>> momentum building there. Perhaps they are trying to quickly fill in
>>> the
>>>>>> gaps based on that interest so that they can close more licensing
>>>> deals?
>>>>> If
>>>>>> that is the case and they can build that revenue source then it
>>> should
>>>>>> ultimately be a good thing for those of us who don't use LiveCode
>> FM.
>>>> It
>>>>> is
>>>>>> unfortunate that LC has to sit mostly idle for so long though.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed. There are currently some 200 or so pull requests waiting in
>> the
>>>>> queue for action.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm encouraged by this:
>> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185
>>>>> --
>>>>>    Mark Wieder
>>>>>    ahsoftware at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tom Glod
>>>> Founder & Developer
>>>> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
>>>> Office:226-706-9339
>>>> Mobile:226-706-9793
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>
>> --
>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
>> On the second day, God created the oceans.
>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>>     and did a little diving.
>> And God said, "This is good."
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From brian at milby7.com  Thu Oct  3 13:53:58 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:53:58 -0400
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <4E0B7DE3-59B7-4076-9D74-1C910D1D93FF@me.com>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
 <CAHg3tG9+_gWfENuWVKHVNM0O8+dvNPJtN6nKbC11uUTUe=Ru-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <dec9b9fd-ea6f-f49f-247d-5c61e985b102@sonic.net>
 <4E0B7DE3-59B7-4076-9D74-1C910D1D93FF@me.com>
Message-ID: <b350a473-e7f6-4812-abae-e678f31c0ee0@Spark>

Part of the agreement that you make when you submit a PR is that you assign rights for the fixes to LC so the code can be integrated into the commercial versions. ?You can?t mix the code on GitHub with the commercial versions yourself though.

I have submitted stuff that is now in released versions, so they do accept contributions (and not everything was strictly bug fixes).

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 3, 2019, 1:48 PM -0400, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> Does anyone know if you fork the Community Edition of LiveCode, solve bugs (e.g. IDE-related, plugins etc.), compile the LC version again and integrate it to the Indy version?
> Or is this just not possible because of the closed source of the engine?
>
> On 03/10/2019, 18:16, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Wieder via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/3/19 8:47 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > > All true. But will the idle state of LC ever change again?
> > >
> >
> > I believe that it will if LiveCode FM gets traction. I may be wrong.
>
> Additionally, the patch that Mark Waddingham just implemented related to
> the frozen pool (I am the walrus?) affecting debugging is encouraging.
>
> --
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jjs at krutt.org  Thu Oct  3 13:54:55 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:54:55 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <08ae4db7-ab14-0e32-eea3-17986822f68c@krutt.org>

Why don't you create a dual boot of your mac?

Apple itself supports it and delivers the drivers to do so.

You only need a win10 license


Op 3-10-2019 om 19:48 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
> Hi
>
> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>
> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>
> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again.
>
> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered.
>
> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Martin Koob
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From sundown at pacifier.com  Thu Oct  3 14:00:42 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:00:42 -0700
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <08ae4db7-ab14-0e32-eea3-17986822f68c@krutt.org>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <08ae4db7-ab14-0e32-eea3-17986822f68c@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <81C021C1-AB9A-421B-946C-A861115B394B@pacifier.com>

Do you have a link for info on how to do that?
I will be wanting to test on Windows too and
was thinking I needed to use a emulator like
Parallels.

JB


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 10:54 AM, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Why don't you create a dual boot of your mac?
> 
> Apple itself supports it and delivers the drivers to do so.
> 
> You only need a win10 license
> 
> 
> Op 3-10-2019 om 19:48 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
>> Hi
>> 
>> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>> 
>> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>> 
>> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again.
>> 
>> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered.
>> 
>> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Martin Koob
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From e.beugelaar at me.com  Thu Oct  3 14:03:21 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 20:03:21 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <5893FD8A-32E7-4F0F-BEB8-ED23CC8EB3AF@me.com>

Hi,

I would advise this hardware:

- LGA 1152 motherboard (with PCIe ports)
- Intel i5 processor
- 8GB RAM or more
- 256GB SSD or better 256GB M.2 NVMe if supported by your Mac

OR use VM's (which I am using on a 32GB Mac machine):

- Expand your current RAM in your Mac to at least 16GB or more if possible
- Replace all mechanical HDD's with SATA SSD or even better M.2 NVMe SSD (minimum 512GB)
- Use Parallels Desktop

Just my 2 cents...

?On 03/10/2019, 19:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Martin Koob via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Hi
    
    I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows. 
    
    I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 
    
    Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again. 
    
    With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered. 
    
    Any suggestions? What are people using?
    
    Thanks in advance. 
    
    Martin Koob
    
    Sent from my iPhone
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From dalton.calford at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 14:05:33 2019
From: dalton.calford at gmail.com (Dalton Calford)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:05:33 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <5893FD8A-32E7-4F0F-BEB8-ED23CC8EB3AF@me.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <5893FD8A-32E7-4F0F-BEB8-ED23CC8EB3AF@me.com>
Message-ID: <CANY9GwpH7U=QV8chMSTjfLDTyEK-izLs5UiphVz_gL0FFDjK1A@mail.gmail.com>

Try Vmware Fusion - you can run windows without needing a dual boot - you
just need a windows 10 licence.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 14:04, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would advise this hardware:
>
> - LGA 1152 motherboard (with PCIe ports)
> - Intel i5 processor
> - 8GB RAM or more
> - 256GB SSD or better 256GB M.2 NVMe if supported by your Mac
>
> OR use VM's (which I am using on a 32GB Mac machine):
>
> - Expand your current RAM in your Mac to at least 16GB or more if possible
> - Replace all mechanical HDD's with SATA SSD or even better M.2 NVMe SSD
> (minimum 512GB)
> - Use Parallels Desktop
>
> Just my 2 cents...
>
> ?On 03/10/2019, 19:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Martin Koob via
> use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>     Hi
>
>     I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development
> including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a
> cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>
>     I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>
>     Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC?
> processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a
> year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want
> to make that mistake again.
>
>     With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I
> don?t want to get something underpowered.
>
>     Any suggestions? What are people using?
>
>     Thanks in advance.
>
>     Martin Koob
>
>     Sent from my iPhone
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     use-livecode mailing list
>     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
>     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From e.beugelaar at me.com  Thu Oct  3 14:05:59 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 20:05:59 +0200
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <b350a473-e7f6-4812-abae-e678f31c0ee0@Spark>
References: <2CA13D45-E5A1-46D6-9031-06578CCECD3C@hyperhh.de>
 <CAHg3tG9+_gWfENuWVKHVNM0O8+dvNPJtN6nKbC11uUTUe=Ru-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <dec9b9fd-ea6f-f49f-247d-5c61e985b102@sonic.net>
 <4E0B7DE3-59B7-4076-9D74-1C910D1D93FF@me.com>
 <b350a473-e7f6-4812-abae-e678f31c0ee0@Spark>
Message-ID: <1F0576F9-5DE5-4B29-A5A9-D1B363DD3DDB@me.com>

Brian, thanks for your quick info.
Good to hear they do accept contributions and merge them in the commercial versions.


?On 03/10/2019, 19:55, "use-livecode on behalf of Brian Milby via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Part of the agreement that you make when you submit a PR is that you assign rights for the fixes to LC so the code can be integrated into the commercial versions.  You can?t mix the code on GitHub with the commercial versions yourself though.
    
    I have submitted stuff that is now in released versions, so they do accept contributions (and not everything was strictly bug fixes).
    
    Thanks,
    Brian
    On Oct 3, 2019, 1:48 PM -0400, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
    > Does anyone know if you fork the Community Edition of LiveCode, solve bugs (e.g. IDE-related, plugins etc.), compile the LC version again and integrate it to the Indy version?
    > Or is this just not possible because of the closed source of the engine?
    >
    > On 03/10/2019, 18:16, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Wieder via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    >
    > On 10/3/19 8:47 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
    >
    > > > All true. But will the idle state of LC ever change again?
    > > >
    > >
    > > I believe that it will if LiveCode FM gets traction. I may be wrong.
    >
    > Additionally, the patch that Mark Waddingham just implemented related to
    > the frozen pool (I am the walrus?) affecting debugging is encouraging.
    >
    > --
    > Mark Wieder
    > ahsoftware at gmail.com
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Thu Oct  3 14:07:48 2019
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:07:48 +0000
Subject: DataGrid and scroll down refresh
Message-ID: <E170D54A-7471-4303-B438-AFBF961486B2@clearvisiontech.com>

Greeting!

For mobile, it has become VERY common to  scroll down past the top of a list to refresh the data (usually a loading wheel appears).  Is there a method to accomplish this with the DataGrid?

-Dan


From dsc at swcp.com  Thu Oct  3 14:13:52 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:13:52 -0600
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <158177B3-FE59-4C0D-BDB4-8637F455F465@swcp.com>

I have used Parallels, and am now also using Virtual Box on my Mac. I use No-Machine to connect to hardware Windows test platforms, and plan to use it for other platforms (Linux, iOS, Android, Raspberry Pi). I use MiniWoL to wake one machine and plan add Wake-on-LAN to another Windows machine. Even when testing on Windows, I edit on Mac and use a network drive for projects. If need be, I sit at the Windows hardware. 

> On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows. 
> 
> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 
> 
> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again. 
> 
> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered. 
> 
> Any suggestions? What are people using?
> 
> Thanks in advance. 
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From jjs at krutt.org  Thu Oct  3 14:31:18 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 20:31:18 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <158177B3-FE59-4C0D-BDB4-8637F455F465@swcp.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <158177B3-FE59-4C0D-BDB4-8637F455F465@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <d8b34df7-9dd7-0cc8-791e-11df14e9b49d@krutt.org>

yes you can use virtualbox or whatever but it will be slower, running an 
OS in an OS, or:

You install bootcamp if you only need Win10: read this 
https://support.apple.com/nl-nl/HT201468 it's in dutch but you can find 
the English version yourself i think

then bootcamp will install all needed drivers so win10 will run smoothly 
on your mac (note that your fan might blow some harder, windows is 
resource hungry)

Or:

you go to https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind Now this is a bit more 
difficult but very good doable, some IT people prefer this.

ReFind will create a new bootloader (something like GRUB but better with 
nice icons)

With Refind you are also able to get Linux on it too, so you could 
create a triple boot


If you want something reversed --> make a mac from a windows/Linux PC, 
then you need to go to https://tonymacx86.com and use Clover as 
bootloader. Note this is harder, and you need to have a mac to download 
the OS on a stick.

Op 3-10-2019 om 20:13 schreef Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode:
> I have used Parallels, and am now also using Virtual Box on my Mac. I use No-Machine to connect to hardware Windows test platforms, and plan to use it for other platforms (Linux, iOS, Android, Raspberry Pi). I use MiniWoL to wake one machine and plan add Wake-on-LAN to another Windows machine. Even when testing on Windows, I edit on Mac and use a network drive for projects. If need be, I sit at the Windows hardware.
>
>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>>
>> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>>
>> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again.
>>
>> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered.
>>
>> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Martin Koob
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From roland.huettmann at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 15:35:09 2019
From: roland.huettmann at gmail.com (R.H.)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 21:35:09 +0200
Subject: Subject: Re: ...and Livecode... where are we now
Message-ID: <CAG1Q0g_SXLh0E-JZt=B_j7xe_r1HmMUipddiukGzXwk7ACEqNw@mail.gmail.com>

Some of the rants are leading nowhere.

I do not think that anybody writing as Richmond did has ever been involved
in keeping up a company with such little assumed revenue to pay from for
salaries. And I would love to see such guys running a company and make
money. They will all fail. But to make money is what a company needs to do.
Any constructive suggestion?

A free community version does not generate income. And rants about
"community" is unfair and the words used are unpleasant to read for users
on the list. They do not convey understanding but express personal anger.
Who shall deal with that?

There are many parts and waiting bugs that can be addressed, but LiveCode
is a huge endeavor addressed by limited resources. I ran over 100
developers for business solutions with my own company and know what I am
talking about.

Put a million dollars in, outsource bug fixing and testing, anticipate a
business model that works. It is very difficult, even impossible, unless
supported by giants nobody here wants to see on board.

If you can do better, come up with suggestions that do not put everbody
down. There is also a responsibilty when writing to a public group. If you
want politics, go to politics. There is enough hate I do not want to see it
here.

I never felt and saw that the LiveCode dev team is not serious and not
trying their very best. Nobody in software development can fully predict
how things will work out. It is an inherent problem due to the complexity
of the subject.

In my company, when I counted estimated development time, I multiplied it
by the factor 4. But who will pay? Only big companies pay serious money for
bug fixing and for each new release. So, I moved main funding to getting
paid for hours spent then. Not so possible here.

I also paid to the LC fundraising campagne and was already satisfied with
the support for Unicode. I never expected that everything would be possible
to fully do for such relatively small amount of money. I never had such
attitude. And nobody else could have done it. The team worked dedicated and
hard. But they also have to live.

Hundreds of millions are lost by companies for that complexity reason in
development. It is easy to break down and very hard to build up.

And in comparison to all those I know as well trying, LC does a fantastic
job for do many years. Thanks to such wonderful team.

To be on the edge of everything, pay dozens of millions monthly! Not even
Adobe or Microsoft can do it and fail often enough.

Be decent!

Roland


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 15:54:37 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 22:54:37 +0300
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <a9bdcddc-2c2a-d13e-a29b-61a284d8a98e@gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a9bdcddc-2c2a-d13e-a29b-61a284d8a98e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4a7730fe-e681-c3ea-b4c3-96ca995ab82a@gmail.com>

Unpleasant rants . . .

Indeed: what I write was unpleasant.

There is, sometimes, a time and a place for unpleasantness, or, as some 
would have it, 'speaking directly.'

But, as many people have said softer, more tactful things for a long 
time to largely no avail, it might just
be that an unpleasant rant gets through.

If I offended anyone re running companies, that is just a side effect.

The simple fact is . . .

And I did preface my rant with it's "Mr Mouth" ' so anyone who wanted
could either ignore or disregard what I wrote.





From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 16:06:48 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Iphonelagi)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 21:06:48 +0100
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG-hZQkXn=KeG_K=TRXR1Hm25jx6Maf_GaGJ-MFFaobysw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <94786B00-5CDC-407F-B7AA-655397DD1E39@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq-7+=ZkT_LGZNXhAp_5DvYQYokAnaLni_En_f8s_=GXvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C55A1A7-25D9-4044-9C0F-D58016DE72DD@me.com>
 <CA+JfEq_fSufHQDcdv3SZ=e48+TpTrpX5G+fMpOEzYsE0Y+n0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012d01d57941$b8869300$2993b900$@net>
 <CA+JfEq-8B0=__cgZUsHpi9afSHay_vRSOkjthsB+X+Y1qDN1ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG-hZQkXn=KeG_K=TRXR1Hm25jx6Maf_GaGJ-MFFaobysw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9CFF919F-1D88-4CC1-8960-1FA6E1C2D544@gmail.com>

Hi Trevor

I understand totally but when something was promised after crowdfunding to be ready in 3 months and three and a half years later NOTHING that is unforgivable ... If one person at Livecode spent 1 hour a day only without weekends over 3 and a half years that?s roughly 21 weeks at 5 days a week 8 hour days ... and that?s a lazy programmers week.

I want them to succeed I don?t want them to take mark and monty and Ali off this project but getting even an a couple of hours a week would have done something 

And answering Bob the best company I ever dealt with for support was Foxpro before microdot bought them ... had a showstopper big while I was onsite in Manchester sent a fax to America got a patch for the bug 1 hour later which I downloaded from their bbs at 2400 baud ... now that?s support.
Mark waddingham  Monty and Panos on this uselist  are close but they aren?t in charge of lighting the Cigar

Lagi

Sent from my iPhone

> On 3 Oct 2019, at 16:42, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 4:56 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm reading between the
>> lines but Trevor probably knows how well it's doing - but the rest of use
>> are being treated like mushrooms.
>> 
> 
> Hi Lagi,
> 
> I do not have any additional information about how well the FM project or
> the company is doing. The last update I received was what others heard at
> the LiveCode Conference. My thoughts are based on what I think I would do
> if I was in their place.
> 
> While I make my business decisions based on what LiveCode can do now (a
> wise senior engineer once counseled me not to base my business on what
> other companies *might* do), I am very interested in the company's health
> as the LiveCode platform affects my ability to deliver great software using
> LiveCode in the future. LiveCode is a very ambitious project. The number of
> platforms they are trying to support requires an enormous amount of
> planning, programming, and other resources to create, maintain, and
> improve. I am heavily invested in LiveCode as a platform so I want very
> much for the company to have healthy revenue streams.
> 
> Based on what I've heard, the LiveCode FM product addresses a very
> important problem that companies are willing to pay recurring licensing
> fees to overcome. It is a wonderful thing when a company can find a large
> pool of customers that have a problem they are willing pay to them you to
> solve. So while I'm less enthusiastic about development on LiveCode slowing
> down right now, I support the company pursuing this opportunity.
> 
> -- 
> Trevor DeVore
> ScreenSteps
> www.screensteps.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Thu Oct  3 16:41:12 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:41:12 -0700
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <4a7730fe-e681-c3ea-b4c3-96ca995ab82a@gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a9bdcddc-2c2a-d13e-a29b-61a284d8a98e@gmail.com>
 <4a7730fe-e681-c3ea-b4c3-96ca995ab82a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07e1f2d2-b7ab-3dfe-e7d9-d73ce6aced21@sonic.net>

On 10/3/19 12:54 PM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:

> And I did preface my rant with it's "Mr Mouth" ' so anyone who wanted
> could either ignore or disregard what I wrote.

Ignore a Richmond Rant? You gotta be kidding. I live for these things.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From heather at livecode.com  Thu Oct  3 16:53:20 2019
From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 21:53:20 +0100
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <4a7730fe-e681-c3ea-b4c3-96ca995ab82a@gmail.com>
References: <1465BB26-E58E-4CE7-84A4-137B6709968E@clearvisiontech.com>
 <013401d57943$76aa9c40$63ffd4c0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_SkcTj1Hm+dUiXktaw0eSPjohHdhyUegFOh6SO=yudsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+JfEq8+1m-57NjyjZ9kg9VcMtOG8oKUXGgZpLfDqF2t5vMS6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <350965C6-8048-4D50-92A2-FE3F1E7E7103@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJL+dXwtauB8g2yVT+QY=BPegvyGL+r=a6OZBd8OK3XXgZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <66BC4B0B-9761-428B-9296-7F4261501E14@major-k.de>
 <CAPzQJLJ+QU=3oYGGcbn3RKM=wFYfxkhvGXKb7Dd++k5U45-bTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VA5TQrm1xr0+Cy=9HLuu3ueoKNkno7oZi6jCKK6mOu7yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHg3tG_a0bV2=p0piMjnjW8zr+kMgc1VKunDvgMLya9A=Wi5ew@mail.gmail.com>
 <aac8b41f-599a-89af-4a84-2b4a896f91f0@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLJy-WA34WHBummSso9LifXyZt8kzJ-tqjn53X3n4-GXrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG1h1VDN5cDvDk_Hz0-H+pRfX=dkRS4oNLUJc2CXwykVP3yfww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADCoycNN4zHn5Vh8719NoHx2nF5w6FgeXb9daKZ+Cy2nf5qOkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE3HL+5mYDjVXNQuu7XYg8p-SjBVAtOceJuVHJe4ob3dLH-jdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a9bdcddc-2c2a-d13e-a29b-61a284d8a98e@gmail.com>
 <4a7730fe-e681-c3ea-b4c3-96ca995ab82a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <728DD2F9-A834-4ABE-855A-C97FA96BD8B5@livecode.com>

Richmond - What you wrote is not just "unpleasant". It is rude, ill informed, offensive and disrespectful to LiveCode, our company, our amazingly dedicated employees, and the members of this great list. If I don't see an apology in the morning you will make history as the only person I have ever banned twice from this list.

Regards somewhat in abeyance right now.

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 3 Oct 2019, at 20:54, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Unpleasant rants . . .
> 
> Indeed: what I write was unpleasant.
> 
> There is, sometimes, a time and a place for unpleasantness, or, as some would have it, 'speaking directly.'
> 
> But, as many people have said softer, more tactful things for a long time to largely no avail, it might just
> be that an unpleasant rant gets through.
> 
> If I offended anyone re running companies, that is just a side effect.
> 
> The simple fact is . . .
> 
> And I did preface my rant with it's "Mr Mouth" ' so anyone who wanted
> could either ignore or disregard what I wrote.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From colinholgate at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 17:17:38 2019
From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 15:17:38 -0600
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <d8b34df7-9dd7-0cc8-791e-11df14e9b49d@krutt.org>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <158177B3-FE59-4C0D-BDB4-8637F455F465@swcp.com>
 <d8b34df7-9dd7-0cc8-791e-11df14e9b49d@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <65B7764D-7E12-494E-A2CD-70F3FCB4B230@gmail.com>

For my job I need to frequently test things in Windows 10, and I have been doing that using Parallels. It works really well, but sometimes I need to do hardware tests, and so I had Bootcamp added as well.

I was curious how well it performs, and so downloaded a benchmark test program. Users who have submitted their results range from a score of 200, up to around 5,500. I tested my work MacBook Pro as a Mac, Windows 10 in Parallels, and Windows 10 in Bootcamp. Parallels managed 1100, macOS was 1900, and Bootcamp was 2300. My Mac pretending to be a PC worked better than my Mac as a Mac, and also better than about 75% of the real PCs in the list of results.


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:31 PM, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> yes you can use virtualbox or whatever but it will be slower, running an OS in an OS, or:
> 
> You install bootcamp if you only need Win10: read this https://support.apple.com/nl-nl/HT201468 it's in dutch but you can find the English version yourself i think
> 
> then bootcamp will install all needed drivers so win10 will run smoothly on your mac (note that your fan might blow some harder, windows is resource hungry)
> 
> Or:
> 
> you go to https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind Now this is a bit more difficult but very good doable, some IT people prefer this.
> 
> ReFind will create a new bootloader (something like GRUB but better with nice icons)
> 
> With Refind you are also able to get Linux on it too, so you could create a triple boot
> 
> 
> If you want something reversed --> make a mac from a windows/Linux PC, then you need to go to https://tonymacx86.com and use Clover as bootloader. Note this is harder, and you need to have a mac to download the OS on a stick.
> 
> Op 3-10-2019 om 20:13 schreef Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode:
>> I have used Parallels, and am now also using Virtual Box on my Mac. I use No-Machine to connect to hardware Windows test platforms, and plan to use it for other platforms (Linux, iOS, Android, Raspberry Pi). I use MiniWoL to wake one machine and plan add Wake-on-LAN to another Windows machine. Even when testing on Windows, I edit on Mac and use a network drive for projects. If need be, I sit at the Windows hardware.
>> 
>>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>>> 
>>> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>>> 
>>> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again.
>>> 
>>> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered.
>>> 
>>> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> 
>>> Martin Koob
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jeff at siphonophore.com  Thu Oct  3 17:18:17 2019
From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:18:17 -0400
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1570126478.97209.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.15.1570126478.97209.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <FA3474C7-C5C9-4167-9D3D-D1BA89C09C03@siphonophore.com>

LC team,

I too so appreciate all the work the LC team has done over the years and continues to do. I?ve used probably a dozen different commercial coding systems over the decades and LC thru all it?s incarnations back to good old MetaCard with Scott was the one that provided the needed options, stability and power to get my multimedia exhibit and education projects done. It?s allowed me to be both designer and developer on projects that has created synergy that has made all the projects come out better. I know the limits of the system and when it?s worth trying to bleed some as it gets you something great and when it?s just not worth it and usually another design approach ends up working better. When I?ve had to work on projects that I couldn?t develop (complexity, timeline, feature needs) and be done in something like C it took way more resources and time and although I had really great programmers and I understood all the basics of what they were doing things could still get lost in translation and some things just turn into a quagmire.

There will always be bugs, feature not there yet, etc in any development system and we each have a very different set of needs and wants and the LC team can?t make us all perfectly happy at once, nor consistently. They are the ones on the front lines trying to make this a profitable business for them (they need to feed their families and they are not our serfs) and make decisions on what the priorities need to be. We can of course lobby for what we think our priorities are (and therefore LC?s), but that doesn?t make it so. 

Many of us have based a lot of our livelihood on LC which is always a risk, but many times completely necessary. Yes I could do my projects more safely in C but I would be very poor as the time needed would suck out any profit at all. It?s always a tradeoff and one that needs constant assessment and not trying to push a development system to the limits as then you are in very dangerous territory ? payoffs can be huge but crashes huge as well. I know I have done it in the past and very luckily survived but probably trimmed a few months off my lifespan to pay for it. I?ve run into bugs in the past with LC and have always found a work around for them on the current project and later most have been taken care of in LC, I realize it takes time and priorities are not always mine.

Yes features are always promised but reality always creeps in and resets things all the time. But LC has gone on longer and further and covering more platforms than most any system out there. With every new platform or major feature it adds to the permutations of issues and bugs so things can go at an exponential curve of development anymore and decisions need to be made to best keep all the balls in the air for the whole system.

Richmond, you need to listen to your mother some and if you don?t have something constructive to say try and be quiet some, or just pontificate in cheese instead of being insulting. I?m sorry but your flaming of LC staff (and the community) constantly is just plain annoying. It does no one any good, it?s not the way to make good change. Come to the table with constructive, reasonable and positive comments and not nasty ones. Sorry, you don?t represent this ?community?, at least none I am part of. You complain the LC treats us with distain, well I don?t feel like LC does and your comments just fill me with distain for your comments. If you talk like that to others then expect to be treated with distain. 

You probably think I?m an LC cult member, but you are wrong, I?m the last guy in the room cults would go for. I think too much for myself and try to treat others reasonably and keep expectations in line with reality, there are no magic bullets, most all things are based on some thought and work, not a guru spewing truth which you seem to think you do and we should follow suit. Sorry not joining your cult. 

LC all the way back to MetaCard has been a big part of making me a richer livelihood in both money and profession, won me awards, and positively educated many hundreds of thousands with my projects for like 35 years now. That is why I trust the LC team to have the best shot at keeping the boat afloat, not a mantra. For that I keep thanking the LC team all the way back to Scott and Bill Atkinson. Others like Hypercard, toolbook, supercard, Oracle media objects, Authorware, Etc have helped for periods and some specific projects due to particular needs (produce something Apple publishes it better be in HyperCard and make something for Mr Packard and it better run on an hp) but none have lasted and matured like LC has.

Jeff

> On Oct 3, 2019, at 2:15 PM, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote:
> Dear List Folks,
> 
> I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder, but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger crashing that was reported not long ago.




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Thu Oct  3 17:31:50 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 22:31:50 +0100
Subject: HTML5
In-Reply-To: <BF0BA21D-B553-4056-AD95-5D018C887E01@logilangue.com>
References: <BF0BA21D-B553-4056-AD95-5D018C887E01@logilangue.com>
Message-ID: <DE21F75A-D29A-4283-87BD-3ACFA6059FBB@pidigital.co.uk>

Hi Alain

I?m sorry to hear you are having this issue. Do you have access to the server settings to enable gzip compression. When enabled the server will compress the js files substantially so that the browser does not have to download so much and d?compresses it in the client (which is much quicker than the download itself). I use the developer tools in Chrome to throttle the network speed to 8Mbps (1MByte/s) and it downloads in 10seconds and has the whole app displayed 15seconds after full reload.

look in the guide in the dictionary under HTML5 deployment and Advanced: Speeding Up Engine Download. 

What type of web server are you on. CPanel can be fairly easy to set up manually. Some servers have it on by default. Some you have to ask the host to turn on for you. 

All the best

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 3 Oct 2019, at 16:01, Alain Vezina via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?How come when I test my app in the developement test using my browser, everything is ok. and
> when I test the same app as standalone in my web site, nothing appear after 3 or 4 minutes?
> 
> My standalone-commercial-9.0.2.js is 28.5 Mo. I guess that is the reason...
> 
> Alain Vezina
> logilangue.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From hh at hyperhh.de  Thu Oct  3 17:45:22 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 23:45:22 +0200
Subject: HTML5 
Message-ID: <14F33FC8-4C95-4111-93BC-CD02EF415B05@hyperhh.de>

Possibly the server of your webpage is very slow.

I need here at most 9-10 seconds to load a standalone
the first time from http://hyperhh.de/html5 .
You could load one of the latest (9.5.0 created) there
and compare.

Or you have conflict with SOP (same origin policy).
Is your standalone trying to load any extern files?

> Alain V. wrote:
> How come when I test my app in the developement test
> using my browser, everything is ok. and when I test
> the same app as standalone in my web site, nothing
> appear after 3 or 4 minutes?




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Thu Oct  3 18:24:38 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 23:24:38 +0100
Subject: ...and Livecode... where are we now?
In-Reply-To: <728DD2F9-A834-4ABE-855A-C97FA96BD8B5@livecode.com>
References: <728DD2F9-A834-4ABE-855A-C97FA96BD8B5@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <20C25BBF-F441-429E-8927-8BE4B5C17E4F@pidigital.co.uk>

Heather

Humbly, I think that would be a bit over the top to ban Richmond. I found it quite entertaining and somewhat truthful. I?m in quite a pleasant and rational state of mind at the moment so can look objectively at this.

 Having stared down the naked barrel of the gun in the hands of LC last year I can totally get where Richmond is coming from, and I?m a long time paying subscriber to LC several times over now. It IS very much distressing at times to have a product that struggles so much and so consistently. HTML5 is only my latest example of this. I only manage to maintain this good state of mind because of a huge amount of meds (far more than a normal human should have to take) and a really forgiving and kind client (supporter). 

Please don?t ban Richmond as he is a valued member and goes through ups and downs like the rest of us. Sometimes, like me, they come out in a rant. Even if it was offensive (which is a subjective term), rude, ill-informed or whatever it is nonetheless a comment that should itself be valued and taken as genuine. Our views, even the bad ones, should be taken on the chin and counted as useful to LCs growth. By them you get to understand the Community you prize so highly (as well you should). If you don?t agree with what he said then that?s your prerogative (even as moderator) but it?s just a vented opinion and, as such, deserves the respect of any readers it gets. 

Make the product better and maybe there?ll be nothing left to rant about ;)

Now let me get back to fixing HTML5 for you!! (Which my client says I?m a fool for doing seeing as we are paying you for ?the gosh-darned thing? (some words replaced for the front of heart). He has a point but I just can?t see you getting it done anytime soon. Even me sending the PR doesn?t guarantee that we?ll see it go live in the next year or so for commercial use. )

If you are really demanding an apology, I would appreciate an even bigger one from your team for winding me up in hospital last year (which I and even my therapists/councillors throw cleanly at LCs doorstep). Anything less would possibly/likely be verging on hypocrisy. 

All the very best to the very best of you all. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 3 Oct 2019, at 21:53, Heather Laine via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Richmond - What you wrote is not just "unpleasant". It is rude, ill informed, offensive and disrespectful to LiveCode, our company, our amazingly dedicated employees, and the members of this great list. If I don't see an apology in the morning you will make history as the only person I have ever banned twice from this list.
> 
> Regards somewhat in abeyance right now.
> 
> Heather
> 
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3 Oct 2019, at 20:54, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Unpleasant rants . . .
>> 
>> Indeed: what I write was unpleasant.
>> 
>> There is, sometimes, a time and a place for unpleasantness, or, as some would have it, 'speaking directly.'
>> 
>> But, as many people have said softer, more tactful things for a long time to largely no avail, it might just
>> be that an unpleasant rant gets through.
>> 
>> If I offended anyone re running companies, that is just a side effect.
>> 
>> The simple fact is . . .
>> 
>> And I did preface my rant with it's "Mr Mouth" ' so anyone who wanted
>> could either ignore or disregard what I wrote.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct  3 19:35:05 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 23:35:05 +0000
Subject: Subject: Re: ...and Livecode... where are we now
In-Reply-To: <CAG1Q0g_SXLh0E-JZt=B_j7xe_r1HmMUipddiukGzXwk7ACEqNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1Q0g_SXLh0E-JZt=B_j7xe_r1HmMUipddiukGzXwk7ACEqNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44F6F631-57E9-4324-949F-1ACAFDBB7C2A@iotecdigital.com>

+1

> On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:35 , R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Some of the rants are leading nowhere.
> 
> I do not think that anybody writing as Richmond did has ever been involved
> in keeping up a company with such little assumed revenue to pay from for
> salaries. And I would love to see such guys running a company and make
> money. They will all fail. But to make money is what a company needs to do.
> Any constructive suggestion?
> 
> A free community version does not generate income. And rants about
> "community" is unfair and the words used are unpleasant to read for users
> on the list. They do not convey understanding but express personal anger.
> Who shall deal with that?
> 
> There are many parts and waiting bugs that can be addressed, but LiveCode
> is a huge endeavor addressed by limited resources. I ran over 100
> developers for business solutions with my own company and know what I am
> talking about.
> 
> Put a million dollars in, outsource bug fixing and testing, anticipate a
> business model that works. It is very difficult, even impossible, unless
> supported by giants nobody here wants to see on board.
> 
> If you can do better, come up with suggestions that do not put everbody
> down. There is also a responsibilty when writing to a public group. If you
> want politics, go to politics. There is enough hate I do not want to see it
> here.
> 
> I never felt and saw that the LiveCode dev team is not serious and not
> trying their very best. Nobody in software development can fully predict
> how things will work out. It is an inherent problem due to the complexity
> of the subject.
> 
> In my company, when I counted estimated development time, I multiplied it
> by the factor 4. But who will pay? Only big companies pay serious money for
> bug fixing and for each new release. So, I moved main funding to getting
> paid for hours spent then. Not so possible here.
> 
> I also paid to the LC fundraising campagne and was already satisfied with
> the support for Unicode. I never expected that everything would be possible
> to fully do for such relatively small amount of money. I never had such
> attitude. And nobody else could have done it. The team worked dedicated and
> hard. But they also have to live.
> 
> Hundreds of millions are lost by companies for that complexity reason in
> development. It is easy to break down and very hard to build up.
> 
> And in comparison to all those I know as well trying, LC does a fantastic
> job for do many years. Thanks to such wonderful team.
> 
> To be on the edge of everything, pay dozens of millions monthly! Not even
> Adobe or Microsoft can do it and fail often enough.
> 
> Be decent!
> 
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Thu Oct  3 19:37:04 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:37:04 -0700
Subject: Python to LiveCode
In-Reply-To: <8A6D8686-F068-4FC3-980C-F067962ED12F@elloco.com>
References: <CAFPv=oF7Svv94+fcf0xoAAFUzNnVPuE09J4uVMV77vVS5MEBtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A6D8686-F068-4FC3-980C-F067962ED12F@elloco.com>
Message-ID: <de086f24-1bd9-b508-88f8-e8c820c7f8d4@sonic.net>

On 9/28/19 8:08 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode wrote:

> Once the code is functional, I refactored it to make it more in line with the way the destination code is typically structured.
> 
> That?s what I did. Tedious but straightforward and successful.

LOL. "And there we go, we've created Minecraft."
https://boingboing.net/2019/10/03/every-programming-video-tutori.html

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct  3 19:38:37 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 23:38:37 +0000
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <65B7764D-7E12-494E-A2CD-70F3FCB4B230@gmail.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <158177B3-FE59-4C0D-BDB4-8637F455F465@swcp.com>
 <d8b34df7-9dd7-0cc8-791e-11df14e9b49d@krutt.org>
 <65B7764D-7E12-494E-A2CD-70F3FCB4B230@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>

I'm curious how a standalone performs. I have a standalone that saves stacks as properties are changes, and I am finding that while Windows direct host is slower than a MacOS for a lot of things, Paralles (using Shared Profile I admit) is several times slower, especially when saving the stack. I know it's the saving because I can see the tilde version of the stack appear, sit  there for way longer than shoud be acceptable, then when the tilde version goes away, I get control of the app back. No big deal as I am the only one who uses it this way, but it makes testing in Parallels almost unbearable. No joy using the Windows LC IDE either. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 14:17 , Colin Holgate via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> For my job I need to frequently test things in Windows 10, and I have been doing that using Parallels. It works really well, but sometimes I need to do hardware tests, and so I had Bootcamp added as well.




From hh at hyperhh.de  Thu Oct  3 20:20:10 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 02:20:10 +0200
Subject: Subject: Re: ...and Livecode... where are we now
Message-ID: <B2E49A1B-FBD4-465E-BBF8-02B68B9041D0@hyperhh.de>

> Sean C. wrote;
> Now let me get back to fixing HTML5 for you!!

Wow ... Where is the piece I missed?

@Heather

Every (software) kingdom needs a court jester.
They have special rights and nobody should be insulted by them.

(And sometimes they say, just as young children, the truth.)



From pystcat at gmail.com  Thu Oct  3 20:21:12 2019
From: pystcat at gmail.com (PystCat)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 20:21:12 -0400
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <8EBF8FD2-C85E-458D-836D-B5138C5E8F19@gmail.com>

Hi Heather,

I can only speak for myself, however I think others might be with me on this,  I think you guys ROCK!  I understand the complexities involved in creating incredibly beautiful software that makes it look very easy to make other software.   You make it easy for me to create easy to use apps and hide all the complex logic behind the scenes.  For making my life easier, I thank you guys.   

Please take all the time you guys need to keep pushing out a great system.  You guys are artists.  Like all great artists, it takes time to create a masterpiece. 

Sl?inte.
Paul

> On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Heather Laine via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear List Folks,
> 
> I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder, but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger crashing that was reported not long ago.
> 
> 9.5.1 is well under way and shouldn't be long now, bringing the needed updates for iOS among other things. I'm not going to even hint at a release date of next week for this, its certain to cause a #fail.
> 
> 9.6 is in progress with some nice new features and a first dp is not far off. Real Soon Now :).
> 
> Yes, it has taken a little longer than usual between releases. A major reason for this was the server move, which impacted our build bots and delayed all test builds. Frustrating, but necessary work, and thankfully that is all done now and everything is working smoothly again. One does not appreciate the full complexity of these build bots until one attempts to move them intact from one place to another.
> 
> The suggestion that all our efforts will remain with LCFM Native and never bear fruit for LiveCode itself is based on a misconception, an idea that somehow we are working on something other than LiveCode. We're not. Everything we are building for LCFM Native is built with LiveCode. We cannot do it without improving LiveCode. Those improvements will come back to the community (many already have). Hermann... its not an infinite effort. FileMaker is very much a finite set of code, with relatively slow changes. 
> 
> I hope you will like 9.0.5, 9.5.1 and 9.6, we're looking forward to bringing them to you. 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Heather
> 
> 
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct  3 20:51:36 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 20:51:36 -0400
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <8EBF8FD2-C85E-458D-836D-B5138C5E8F19@gmail.com>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
 <8EBF8FD2-C85E-458D-836D-B5138C5E8F19@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLJNrVUwHuq2dBNDiniqPRcdZ=rtM84H78rYdVfoZbWBZw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Heather, thanks for the update.

Richmond, that was way over the top dude. I respect your right to say your
peace, and not much of it rings wholly true to me.

I pretty much just trust the team, last I talked to Kevin, he seemed sure
of the direction that they are taking......and for now....esp with 9.05 the
team has delivered a powerful and stable language and platform.

Thank you.




On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 8:22 PM PystCat via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Heather,
>
> I can only speak for myself, however I think others might be with me on
> this,  I think you guys ROCK!  I understand the complexities involved in
> creating incredibly beautiful software that makes it look very easy to make
> other software.   You make it easy for me to create easy to use apps and
> hide all the complex logic behind the scenes.  For making my life easier, I
> thank you guys.
>
> Please take all the time you guys need to keep pushing out a great
> system.  You guys are artists.  Like all great artists, it takes time to
> create a masterpiece.
>
> Sl?inte.
> Paul
>
> > On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Heather Laine via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear List Folks,
> >
> > I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits
> of their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder,
> but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well
> with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've
> just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my
> rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger
> crashing that was reported not long ago.
> >
> > 9.5.1 is well under way and shouldn't be long now, bringing the needed
> updates for iOS among other things. I'm not going to even hint at a release
> date of next week for this, its certain to cause a #fail.
> >
> > 9.6 is in progress with some nice new features and a first dp is not far
> off. Real Soon Now :).
> >
> > Yes, it has taken a little longer than usual between releases. A major
> reason for this was the server move, which impacted our build bots and
> delayed all test builds. Frustrating, but necessary work, and thankfully
> that is all done now and everything is working smoothly again. One does not
> appreciate the full complexity of these build bots until one attempts to
> move them intact from one place to another.
> >
> > The suggestion that all our efforts will remain with LCFM Native and
> never bear fruit for LiveCode itself is based on a misconception, an idea
> that somehow we are working on something other than LiveCode. We're not.
> Everything we are building for LCFM Native is built with LiveCode. We
> cannot do it without improving LiveCode. Those improvements will come back
> to the community (many already have). Hermann... its not an infinite
> effort. FileMaker is very much a finite set of code, with relatively slow
> changes.
> >
> > I hope you will like 9.0.5, 9.5.1 and 9.6, we're looking forward to
> bringing them to you.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Heather
> >
> >
> > Heather Laine
> > Customer Services Manager
> > LiveCode Ltd
> > www.livecode.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Oct  3 22:35:16 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 21:35:16 -0500
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <8EBF8FD2-C85E-458D-836D-B5138C5E8F19@gmail.com>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
 <8EBF8FD2-C85E-458D-836D-B5138C5E8F19@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16d949f12a0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

You speak for me too. The only people who could say such things about LC 
are those who don't know them. Anyone who does know them knows that 
everything Richmond said is false. "Ill-informed" is putting it mildly.

LC are very open to constructive criticism, but rants just make the speaker 
a troll. We are in fact a caring community and I for one do not welcome a 
member who feels common courtesy is disposable.

For a new perspective, try a search for all the fixed and resolved issues.

https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=Now&chfield=resolution&query_format=advanced&chfieldvalue=Fixed
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 3, 2019 7:23:00 PM PystCat via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Heather,
>
> I can only speak for myself, however I think others might be with me on 
> this,  I think you guys ROCK!  I understand the complexities involved in 
> creating incredibly beautiful software that makes it look very easy to make 
> other software.   You make it easy for me to create easy to use apps and 
> hide all the complex logic behind the scenes.  For making my life easier, I 
> thank you guys.
>
> Please take all the time you guys need to keep pushing out a great system.  
> You guys are artists.  Like all great artists, it takes time to create a 
> masterpiece.
>
> Sl?inte.
> Paul
>
>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Heather Laine via use-livecode 
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear List Folks,
>>
>>
>> I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of 
>> their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder, 
>> but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well 
>> with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've 
>> just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my 
>> rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger 
>> crashing that was reported not long ago.
>>
>>
>> 9.5.1 is well under way and shouldn't be long now, bringing the needed 
>> updates for iOS among other things. I'm not going to even hint at a release 
>> date of next week for this, its certain to cause a #fail.
>>
>>
>> 9.6 is in progress with some nice new features and a first dp is not far 
>> off. Real Soon Now :).
>>
>>
>> Yes, it has taken a little longer than usual between releases. A major 
>> reason for this was the server move, which impacted our build bots and 
>> delayed all test builds. Frustrating, but necessary work, and thankfully 
>> that is all done now and everything is working smoothly again. One does not 
>> appreciate the full complexity of these build bots until one attempts to 
>> move them intact from one place to another.
>>
>>
>> The suggestion that all our efforts will remain with LCFM Native and never 
>> bear fruit for LiveCode itself is based on a misconception, an idea that 
>> somehow we are working on something other than LiveCode. We're not. 
>> Everything we are building for LCFM Native is built with LiveCode. We 
>> cannot do it without improving LiveCode. Those improvements will come back 
>> to the community (many already have). Hermann... its not an infinite 
>> effort. FileMaker is very much a finite set of code, with relatively slow 
>> changes.
>>
>>
>> I hope you will like 9.0.5, 9.5.1 and 9.6, we're looking forward to 
>> bringing them to you.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Heather
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Heather Laine
>> Customer Services Manager
>> LiveCode Ltd
>> www.livecode.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Oct  3 22:51:52 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 21:51:52 -0500
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <16d949f12a0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
 <8EBF8FD2-C85E-458D-836D-B5138C5E8F19@gmail.com>
 <16d949f12a0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <16d94ae4540.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

Hm. The search stops at 10000.

"This list is too long for The LiveCode Quality Control Center's little 
mind; the Next/Prev/First/Last buttons won't appear on individual bugs."
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 3, 2019 9:37:28 PM "J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> You speak for me too. The only people who could say such things about LC
> are those who don't know them. Anyone who does know them knows that
> everything Richmond said is false. "Ill-informed" is putting it mildly.
>
> LC are very open to constructive criticism, but rants just make the speaker
> a troll. We are in fact a caring community and I for one do not welcome a
> member who feels common courtesy is disposable.
>
> For a new perspective, try a search for all the fixed and resolved issues.
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=Now&chfield=resolution&query_format=advanced&chfieldvalue=Fixed
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On October 3, 2019 7:23:00 PM PystCat via use-livecode
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Heather,
>>
>> I can only speak for myself, however I think others might be with me on
>> this,  I think you guys ROCK!  I understand the complexities involved in
>> creating incredibly beautiful software that makes it look very easy to make
>> other software.   You make it easy for me to create easy to use apps and
>> hide all the complex logic behind the scenes.  For making my life easier, I
>> thank you guys.
>>
>> Please take all the time you guys need to keep pushing out a great system.
>> You guys are artists.  Like all great artists, it takes time to create a
>> masterpiece.
>>
>> Sl?inte.
>> Paul
>>
>>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Heather Laine via use-livecode
>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear List Folks,
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of
>>> their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder,
>>> but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well
>>> with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've
>>> just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my
>>> rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger
>>> crashing that was reported not long ago.
>>>
>>>
>>> 9.5.1 is well under way and shouldn't be long now, bringing the needed
>>> updates for iOS among other things. I'm not going to even hint at a release
>>> date of next week for this, its certain to cause a #fail.
>>>
>>>
>>> 9.6 is in progress with some nice new features and a first dp is not far
>>> off. Real Soon Now :).
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it has taken a little longer than usual between releases. A major
>>> reason for this was the server move, which impacted our build bots and
>>> delayed all test builds. Frustrating, but necessary work, and thankfully
>>> that is all done now and everything is working smoothly again. One does not
>>> appreciate the full complexity of these build bots until one attempts to
>>> move them intact from one place to another.
>>>
>>>
>>> The suggestion that all our efforts will remain with LCFM Native and never
>>> bear fruit for LiveCode itself is based on a misconception, an idea that
>>> somehow we are working on something other than LiveCode. We're not.
>>> Everything we are building for LCFM Native is built with LiveCode. We
>>> cannot do it without improving LiveCode. Those improvements will come back
>>> to the community (many already have). Hermann... its not an infinite
>>> effort. FileMaker is very much a finite set of code, with relatively slow
>>> changes.
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope you will like 9.0.5, 9.5.1 and 9.6, we're looking forward to
>>> bringing them to you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Heather
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Heather Laine
>>> Customer Services Manager
>>> LiveCode Ltd
>>> www.livecode.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Thu Oct  3 23:33:26 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 20:33:26 -0700
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <16d94ae4540.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
 <8EBF8FD2-C85E-458D-836D-B5138C5E8F19@gmail.com>
 <16d949f12a0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <16d94ae4540.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <9e49686b-4aa8-c093-16ef-c8c6902b0d1c@sonic.net>

On 10/3/19 7:51 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> Hm. The search stops at 10000.

Try narrowing it by date. For instance, an impressive 130 bugs resolved 
since the release of LC 9.0.5 on 16 May.

<https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=Now&query_format=advanced&chfield=bug_status&chfieldfrom=2019-05-17&chfieldvalue=resolved&bug_status=RESOLVED>

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 01:18:25 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond Mathewson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 08:18:25 +0300
Subject: Always negative
Message-ID: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>

Not entirely.

I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is doable
 and makes any business sense is a big question.

Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months, say)
and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.

Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
features they really wanted seeing to.

Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct  4 02:51:27 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 01:51:27 -0500
Subject: Always negative
In-Reply-To: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16d95899d98.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new 
feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only 
needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Not entirely.
>
>
> I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is doable
> and makes any business sense is a big question.
>
>
> Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months, say)
> and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.
>
>
> Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
> features they really wanted seeing to.
>
>
> Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct  4 02:53:19 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 01:53:19 -0500
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <9e49686b-4aa8-c093-16ef-c8c6902b0d1c@sonic.net>
References: <C88339DA-2762-4A99-B44E-1C5A2307C186@livecode.com>
 <8EBF8FD2-C85E-458D-836D-B5138C5E8F19@gmail.com>
 <16d949f12a0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <16d94ae4540.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <9e49686b-4aa8-c093-16ef-c8c6902b0d1c@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <16d958b5318.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

I was more impressed by the more than 10000 fixes. :)
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 3, 2019 10:35:18 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 10/3/19 7:51 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hm. The search stops at 10000.
>
> Try narrowing it by date. For instance, an impressive 130 bugs resolved
> since the release of LC 9.0.5 on 16 May.
>
> <https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=Now&query_format=advanced&chfield=bug_status&chfieldfrom=2019-05-17&chfieldvalue=resolved&bug_status=RESOLVED>
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From curry at pair.com  Fri Oct  4 03:46:44 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 03:46:44 -0400
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <9e49686b-4aa8-c093-16ef-c8c6902b0d1c@sonic.net>
References: <9e49686b-4aa8-c093-16ef-c8c6902b0d1c@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3e938f38-09ca-74d5-f530-9ea79903b779@pair.com>


To banish Richmond, or to banish bugs? Which is the bigger problem?

Which is more directly responsible for the existence of this thread?

I would encourage looking at "net" bugs: bugs fixed, versus bugs 
introduced or regressed, during a time period. In development there are 
always bugs, and there are always fixes. Both the number of bugs and the 
number fixed are pretty impressive. Comparing the two (which takes a 
while, as we're still finding old bugs) might be more meaningful than 
promoting either on its own.

Not sure about "net" Richmonds. :)

I think reducing net bugs would be a plus all around, and would make a 
good impression on new and old customers. I care about LC, use it 
exclusively, and want the best for it.

Reducing net Richmonds could be pleasant superficially (ah, the peace, 
the lack of random vulgarities, witty insults, and topic stew) but might 
risk losing the occasional valuable insight. Not to mention an LC 
teacher and Unicode tester and all-around issue awareness raiser. And a 
longstanding part and practically parcel of this list community, whose 
missing presence might be felt.

LC can and will do as they wish, and some order and decency must be 
maintained on any list for that list to survive, but that's my 2 cents 
as an LC well-wisher and thinking only of what LC stands to lose or 
gain, not for myself.

I'm part Scottish too, you know? Our genetic curse may be that we bottle 
in all our opinions (the very few we have) and keep it inside our entire 
lives, and never express ourselves in the least. (Ha ha.) For several 
years on some occasions with fairly wild threads I've wanted to joke: 
for goodness sake, speak up for yourself! But I rarely chime in here. 
I'm writing this email now, just in case it's the last opportunity to 
say that.

Hello and bye for now, to everyone, back to work....

Best wishes,

Curry K.



From jjs at krutt.org  Fri Oct  4 04:07:29 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:07:29 +0200
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <FA3474C7-C5C9-4167-9D3D-D1BA89C09C03@siphonophore.com>
References: <mailman.15.1570126478.97209.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <FA3474C7-C5C9-4167-9D3D-D1BA89C09C03@siphonophore.com>
Message-ID: <6bd18675-c2e5-eec5-f622-f1d67203895d@krutt.org>

I followed this thread, and what came up to me is "Don't kill your darling"

I've seen this with Synthmaker/Flowstone happening too, people not 
happy, starting to rant or whatever, murdering the thing you love.

Be constructive!

I truly believe that a lot of programmers here, including myself, would 
have never become programmers if it wasn't for the easiness we can 
program with LiveCode.

This tool gave me insight in how other languages are working and a lot 
are similar, except for constructing code sentences with a bunch of ' " 
} god knows where to put them.

So try to learn Java/Kotlin/Swift/C++ and see how more difficult it is 
to get your head around it, then come back with flowers to LC.

I'm thankful of what i have made so far (although i still did not make 
any cent, but that's because I'm a lousy entrepreneur)

Sphere.

Op 3-10-2019 om 23:18 schreef Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode:
> LC team,
>
> I too so appreciate all the work the LC team has done over the years and continues to do. I?ve used probably a dozen different commercial coding systems over the decades and LC thru all it?s incarnations back to good old MetaCard with Scott was the one that provided the needed options, stability and power to get my multimedia exhibit and education projects done. It?s allowed me to be both designer and developer on projects that has created synergy that has made all the projects come out better. I know the limits of the system and when it?s worth trying to bleed some as it gets you something great and when it?s just not worth it and usually another design approach ends up working better. When I?ve had to work on projects that I couldn?t develop (complexity, timeline, feature needs) and be done in something like C it took way more resources and time and although I had really great programmers and I understood all the basics of what they were doing things could still get lost in translation and some things just turn into a quagmire.
>
> There will always be bugs, feature not there yet, etc in any development system and we each have a very different set of needs and wants and the LC team can?t make us all perfectly happy at once, nor consistently. They are the ones on the front lines trying to make this a profitable business for them (they need to feed their families and they are not our serfs) and make decisions on what the priorities need to be. We can of course lobby for what we think our priorities are (and therefore LC?s), but that doesn?t make it so.
>
> Many of us have based a lot of our livelihood on LC which is always a risk, but many times completely necessary. Yes I could do my projects more safely in C but I would be very poor as the time needed would suck out any profit at all. It?s always a tradeoff and one that needs constant assessment and not trying to push a development system to the limits as then you are in very dangerous territory ? payoffs can be huge but crashes huge as well. I know I have done it in the past and very luckily survived but probably trimmed a few months off my lifespan to pay for it. I?ve run into bugs in the past with LC and have always found a work around for them on the current project and later most have been taken care of in LC, I realize it takes time and priorities are not always mine.
>
> Yes features are always promised but reality always creeps in and resets things all the time. But LC has gone on longer and further and covering more platforms than most any system out there. With every new platform or major feature it adds to the permutations of issues and bugs so things can go at an exponential curve of development anymore and decisions need to be made to best keep all the balls in the air for the whole system.
>
> Richmond, you need to listen to your mother some and if you don?t have something constructive to say try and be quiet some, or just pontificate in cheese instead of being insulting. I?m sorry but your flaming of LC staff (and the community) constantly is just plain annoying. It does no one any good, it?s not the way to make good change. Come to the table with constructive, reasonable and positive comments and not nasty ones. Sorry, you don?t represent this ?community?, at least none I am part of. You complain the LC treats us with distain, well I don?t feel like LC does and your comments just fill me with distain for your comments. If you talk like that to others then expect to be treated with distain.
>
> You probably think I?m an LC cult member, but you are wrong, I?m the last guy in the room cults would go for. I think too much for myself and try to treat others reasonably and keep expectations in line with reality, there are no magic bullets, most all things are based on some thought and work, not a guru spewing truth which you seem to think you do and we should follow suit. Sorry not joining your cult.
>
> LC all the way back to MetaCard has been a big part of making me a richer livelihood in both money and profession, won me awards, and positively educated many hundreds of thousands with my projects for like 35 years now. That is why I trust the LC team to have the best shot at keeping the boat afloat, not a mantra. For that I keep thanking the LC team all the way back to Scott and Bill Atkinson. Others like Hypercard, toolbook, supercard, Oracle media objects, Authorware, Etc have helped for periods and some specific projects due to particular needs (produce something Apple publishes it better be in HyperCard and make something for Mr Packard and it better run on an hp) but none have lasted and matured like LC has.
>
> Jeff
>
>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 2:15 PM, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote:
>> Dear List Folks,
>>
>> I'd like to reassure you, the team is anything but idle, and the fruits of their labours are coming your way. I don't wish to steal Pano's thunder, but you should look for an announcement on 9.0.5 tomorrow (all being well with the build, which is currently undergoing final checks. Probably I've just jinxed it by mentioning a release date, in direct contravention of my rules.) 9.0.5 has had a fix shoehorned into it for the nasty debugger crashing that was reported not long ago.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From curry at pair.com  Fri Oct  4 04:34:28 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 04:34:28 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>


For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended 
specs for Windows Development computer"

(... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows 
hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)

here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows 
only" experience:

- Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen 
a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, 
and similar results.

- I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands 
dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more....

- PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) 
laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip 
and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.

- The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any 
extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to 
overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use 
budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.

- Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various 
other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of 
your machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and 
chains.

- Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which 
felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence 
on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a 
system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. 
(There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty 
much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was proudly 
"Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just realize that 
many everyday users are equally efficient on the other operating systems.

I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for 
both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 04:49:53 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:49:53 +0300
Subject: Always negative
In-Reply-To: <16d95899d98.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <16d95899d98.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <566806f9-3c32-3ded-f0f1-0d8670f736b0@gmail.com>

Yes, I am willing to organise a fundraiser to help finance ironing out 
LiveCode bugs.

I am, however, not sure how to go about that;

1. Set up a 'thing' on Indiegogo (because this is not a fund-raiser to 
have a set lower limit)?

2. Link it to a dedicated bank account belonging to LiveCode?

3. Perform some sort of triage to rank LC bugs?

4. Have a way to award badges for people who donate to squash particular 
bugs?

I believe that this is quite a useful model: 
https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/

If this would work I am more than willing to "put my time where my mouth 
is" and run this.

On 4.10.19 9:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new 
> feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only 
> needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?
>
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Not entirely.
>>
>>
>> I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is 
>> doable
>> and makes any business sense is a big question.
>>
>>
>> Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months, 
>> say)
>> and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.
>>
>>
>> Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
>> features they really wanted seeing to.
>>
>>
>> Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From curry at pair.com  Fri Oct  4 04:55:24 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 04:55:24 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
References: <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
Message-ID: <367ed044-6eb2-e1b9-d3e0-6a1aa6fedefa@pair.com>


Me:

> Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.

Should have said:

> Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB hard drive.

PS. When "debugging" your antivirus, system settings, and other software 
to make your machine operate more smoothly, it's helpful to open the 
Task Manager and sort the Processes list by Disk. You'll discover the 
issues faster that way. (In previous years, I usually would have sorted 
by Memory or CPU.) Once you get those issues sorted out, your 
cross-platform experience will be very different.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 05:02:51 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 12:02:51 +0300
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <3e938f38-09ca-74d5-f530-9ea79903b779@pair.com>
References: <9e49686b-4aa8-c093-16ef-c8c6902b0d1c@sonic.net>
 <3e938f38-09ca-74d5-f530-9ea79903b779@pair.com>
Message-ID: <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>

Possibly, on rereading my intemperate posting I should be banished to 
the naughty corner at least.

I do apologise for all the obvious offense my posting has caused.

However, I will state that that posting was an explosion of frustration 
about some issues I feel are very real indeed.

I do hope that:

1. You will all forgive me.

2. Support my coming efforts vis Jacque Landman Gay's message to 
establish a fund-raiser to
finance a concerted effort at getting as many out-standing bugs in 
LiveCode sorted out as possible.

Richmond.

On 4.10.19 10:46, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:
>
> To banish Richmond, or to banish bugs? Which is the bigger problem?
>
> Which is more directly responsible for the existence of this thread?
>
> I would encourage looking at "net" bugs: bugs fixed, versus bugs 
> introduced or regressed, during a time period. In development there 
> are always bugs, and there are always fixes. Both the number of bugs 
> and the number fixed are pretty impressive. Comparing the two (which 
> takes a while, as we're still finding old bugs) might be more 
> meaningful than promoting either on its own.
>
> Not sure about "net" Richmonds. :)
>
> I think reducing net bugs would be a plus all around, and would make a 
> good impression on new and old customers. I care about LC, use it 
> exclusively, and want the best for it.
>
> Reducing net Richmonds could be pleasant superficially (ah, the peace, 
> the lack of random vulgarities, witty insults, and topic stew) but 
> might risk losing the occasional valuable insight. Not to mention an 
> LC teacher and Unicode tester and all-around issue awareness raiser. 
> And a longstanding part and practically parcel of this list community, 
> whose missing presence might be felt.
>
> LC can and will do as they wish, and some order and decency must be 
> maintained on any list for that list to survive, but that's my 2 cents 
> as an LC well-wisher and thinking only of what LC stands to lose or 
> gain, not for myself.
>
> I'm part Scottish too, you know? Our genetic curse may be that we 
> bottle in all our opinions (the very few we have) and keep it inside 
> our entire lives, and never express ourselves in the least. (Ha ha.) 
> For several years on some occasions with fairly wild threads I've 
> wanted to joke: for goodness sake, speak up for yourself! But I rarely 
> chime in here. I'm writing this email now, just in case it's the last 
> opportunity to say that.
>
> Hello and bye for now, to everyone, back to work....
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Curry K.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From heather at livecode.com  Fri Oct  4 05:11:51 2019
From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:11:51 +0100
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>
References: <9e49686b-4aa8-c093-16ef-c8c6902b0d1c@sonic.net>
 <3e938f38-09ca-74d5-f530-9ea79903b779@pair.com>
 <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <354669D2-283C-4FA2-BBE9-92B4E20A1429@livecode.com>

:) and there it is. I am happy and relieved to be able to forgive and move on.

We all want the same thing here: for LiveCode to be hugely successful. Our official BHAG (Big Hairy Audacious Goal, this is real actual terminology believe it or not) as stated in our company articles is and has been for some years to see LiveCode as number 1 on the Tiobe index. Our means for getting there may differ, but we can at least all agree on the goal.

Onwards and upwards.

Warmest Regards, 

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 4 Oct 2019, at 10:02, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Possibly, on rereading my intemperate posting I should be banished to the naughty corner at least.
> 
> I do apologise for all the obvious offense my posting has caused.
> 
> However, I will state that that posting was an explosion of frustration about some issues I feel are very real indeed.
> 
> I do hope that:
> 
> 1. You will all forgive me.
> 
> 2. Support my coming efforts vis Jacque Landman Gay's message to establish a fund-raiser to
> finance a concerted effort at getting as many out-standing bugs in LiveCode sorted out as possible.
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> On 4.10.19 10:46, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>> To banish Richmond, or to banish bugs? Which is the bigger problem?
>> 
>> Which is more directly responsible for the existence of this thread?
>> 
>> I would encourage looking at "net" bugs: bugs fixed, versus bugs introduced or regressed, during a time period. In development there are always bugs, and there are always fixes. Both the number of bugs and the number fixed are pretty impressive. Comparing the two (which takes a while, as we're still finding old bugs) might be more meaningful than promoting either on its own.
>> 
>> Not sure about "net" Richmonds. :)
>> 
>> I think reducing net bugs would be a plus all around, and would make a good impression on new and old customers. I care about LC, use it exclusively, and want the best for it.
>> 
>> Reducing net Richmonds could be pleasant superficially (ah, the peace, the lack of random vulgarities, witty insults, and topic stew) but might risk losing the occasional valuable insight. Not to mention an LC teacher and Unicode tester and all-around issue awareness raiser. And a longstanding part and practically parcel of this list community, whose missing presence might be felt.
>> 
>> LC can and will do as they wish, and some order and decency must be maintained on any list for that list to survive, but that's my 2 cents as an LC well-wisher and thinking only of what LC stands to lose or gain, not for myself.
>> 
>> I'm part Scottish too, you know? Our genetic curse may be that we bottle in all our opinions (the very few we have) and keep it inside our entire lives, and never express ourselves in the least. (Ha ha.) For several years on some occasions with fairly wild threads I've wanted to joke: for goodness sake, speak up for yourself! But I rarely chime in here. I'm writing this email now, just in case it's the last opportunity to say that.
>> 
>> Hello and bye for now, to everyone, back to work....
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Curry K.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Fri Oct  4 06:28:12 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:28:12 +0100
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <354669D2-283C-4FA2-BBE9-92B4E20A1429@livecode.com>
References: <354669D2-283C-4FA2-BBE9-92B4E20A1429@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <3E75CE2D-E417-4EC3-93B4-1F734295BD4C@pidigital.co.uk>

And there it is (indeed)!! You still managed to get out of apologising to me, LC. Pft! 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 4 Oct 2019, at 10:11, Heather Laine via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?:) and there it is. I am happy and relieved to be able to forgive and move on.
> 
> We all want the same thing here: for LiveCode to be hugely successful. Our official BHAG (Big Hairy Audacious Goal, this is real actual terminology believe it or not) as stated in our company articles is and has been for some years to see LiveCode as number 1 on the Tiobe index. Our means for getting there may differ, but we can at least all agree on the goal.
> 
> Onwards and upwards.
> 
> Warmest Regards, 
> 
> Heather
> 
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On 4 Oct 2019, at 10:02, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Possibly, on rereading my intemperate posting I should be banished to the naughty corner at least.
>> 
>> I do apologise for all the obvious offense my posting has caused.
>> 
>> However, I will state that that posting was an explosion of frustration about some issues I feel are very real indeed.
>> 
>> I do hope that:
>> 
>> 1. You will all forgive me.
>> 
>> 2. Support my coming efforts vis Jacque Landman Gay's message to establish a fund-raiser to
>> finance a concerted effort at getting as many out-standing bugs in LiveCode sorted out as possible.
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
>>> On 4.10.19 10:46, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:
>>> 
>>> To banish Richmond, or to banish bugs? Which is the bigger problem?
>>> 
>>> Which is more directly responsible for the existence of this thread?
>>> 
>>> I would encourage looking at "net" bugs: bugs fixed, versus bugs introduced or regressed, during a time period. In development there are always bugs, and there are always fixes. Both the number of bugs and the number fixed are pretty impressive. Comparing the two (which takes a while, as we're still finding old bugs) might be more meaningful than promoting either on its own.
>>> 
>>> Not sure about "net" Richmonds. :)
>>> 
>>> I think reducing net bugs would be a plus all around, and would make a good impression on new and old customers. I care about LC, use it exclusively, and want the best for it.
>>> 
>>> Reducing net Richmonds could be pleasant superficially (ah, the peace, the lack of random vulgarities, witty insults, and topic stew) but might risk losing the occasional valuable insight. Not to mention an LC teacher and Unicode tester and all-around issue awareness raiser. And a longstanding part and practically parcel of this list community, whose missing presence might be felt.
>>> 
>>> LC can and will do as they wish, and some order and decency must be maintained on any list for that list to survive, but that's my 2 cents as an LC well-wisher and thinking only of what LC stands to lose or gain, not for myself.
>>> 
>>> I'm part Scottish too, you know? Our genetic curse may be that we bottle in all our opinions (the very few we have) and keep it inside our entire lives, and never express ourselves in the least. (Ha ha.) For several years on some occasions with fairly wild threads I've wanted to joke: for goodness sake, speak up for yourself! But I rarely chime in here. I'm writing this email now, just in case it's the last opportunity to say that.
>>> 
>>> Hello and bye for now, to everyone, back to work....
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> Curry K.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From heather at livecode.com  Fri Oct  4 07:36:11 2019
From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 12:36:11 +0100
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <3E75CE2D-E417-4EC3-93B4-1F734295BD4C@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <354669D2-283C-4FA2-BBE9-92B4E20A1429@livecode.com>
 <3E75CE2D-E417-4EC3-93B4-1F734295BD4C@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9014945D-0602-4259-A8D3-7C5F070E52EF@livecode.com>

Dear Sean,

If you look back through that thread you will see that we did more than apologise. We expressed regret, and we also showed willing to jump in and fix the issue as soon as was humanly possible. Which is all anyone can do when something goes wrong. We do not as yet have the ability to time travel in order to prevent the issue having arisen.

It is time to move on from this thread.

Warmest regards,

Heather

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 4 Oct 2019, at 11:28, Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> And there it is (indeed)!! You still managed to get out of apologising to me, LC. Pft! 
> 
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd




From panos.merakos at livecode.com  Fri Oct  4 07:53:00 2019
From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:53:00 +0300
Subject: [ANN] Release 9.0.5
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq_Ya0Y0A=wid_qaWDLO5MdEPd7DY6CnydMf+UWOWtNbbA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.0.5 STABLE.


Getting the Release
===================
You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via
the automatic updater.


Release Contents
================
LiveCode 9.0.5 comes with more than 60 bugfixes, compared to the last
stable 9.0.x version (9.0.4), including fixes to several memory leaks that
had been around for a long time. Moreover, dozens of Dictionary entries
have been corrected and enhanced.

Finally, the random crashes when using the debugger and
adding/removing/stepping through red dot breakpoints have been fixed.

Note that this release is the *last* of the 9.0.x release cycle.

All these fixes - and many more - will be included in our new maintenance
release cycle, that is 9.5.x.

New features will now appear in the 9.6.x release cycle.


Known issues
================
- The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with
Cinnamon window manager.
- The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS
yet.

The full release notes are available from:

http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf


Feedback
========
Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
http://quality.livecode.com/

We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at
http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93


Have fun!
The LiveCode Team
--


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Fri Oct  4 10:08:15 2019
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:08:15 +0200
Subject: [ANN] Release 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq_Ya0Y0A=wid_qaWDLO5MdEPd7DY6CnydMf+UWOWtNbbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+JfEq_Ya0Y0A=wid_qaWDLO5MdEPd7DY6CnydMf+UWOWtNbbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C18DD03-3801-40A8-BC00-E6B2230A958E@m-r-d.de>

Thanks Panos and LC Team,

one little question. 

LC 9.0.5 Business is showing here the well known  "This app is not optimised for your Mac". If LC 9.05 is the last of the 9.0.x release cycle, will that mean, that 9.0.5 will not run under Catalina?

Regards,

Matthias


Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

> Am 04.10.2019 um 13:53 schrieb panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Dear list members,
> 
> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.0.5 STABLE.
> 
> 
> Getting the Release
> ===================
> You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ <https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/> or via
> the automatic updater.
> 
> 
> Release Contents
> ================
> LiveCode 9.0.5 comes with more than 60 bugfixes, compared to the last
> stable 9.0.x version (9.0.4), including fixes to several memory leaks that
> had been around for a long time. Moreover, dozens of Dictionary entries
> have been corrected and enhanced.
> 
> Finally, the random crashes when using the debugger and
> adding/removing/stepping through red dot breakpoints have been fixed.
> 
> Note that this release is the *last* of the 9.0.x release cycle.
> 
> All these fixes - and many more - will be included in our new maintenance
> release cycle, that is 9.5.x.
> 
> New features will now appear in the 9.6.x release cycle.
> 
> 
> Known issues
> ================
> - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with
> Cinnamon window manager.
> - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS
> yet.
> 
> The full release notes are available from:
> 
> http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf <http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf>
> 
> 
> Feedback
> ========
> Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
> http://quality.livecode.com/ <http://quality.livecode.com/>
> 
> We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 <http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93>
> 
> 
> Have fun!
> The LiveCode Team
> --
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>


From merakosp at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 10:18:13 2019
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 17:18:13 +0300
Subject: [ANN] Release 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <7C18DD03-3801-40A8-BC00-E6B2230A958E@m-r-d.de>
References: <CA+JfEq_Ya0Y0A=wid_qaWDLO5MdEPd7DY6CnydMf+UWOWtNbbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7C18DD03-3801-40A8-BC00-E6B2230A958E@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq9w2Y=0vLiBgfT6fjL9ssv0c0Xe9FJvGSh5SSzM9ZAxJg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Matthias,

This is because of the autoupdated being 32bit only in LC 9.0.5. We have
fixed this in LC 9.5.0 (or in 9.5.1 rc1 which is not released yet - I do
not remember at the moment).

So I _think_ that LC 9.0.5 will continue to work in Catalina, but the
autoupdater will not.

Is there any reason not to use 9.5.0 in Catalina? I mean, is there any bug
affecting 9.5.x but not 9.0.x?

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 17:09, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks Panos and LC Team,
>
> one little question.
>
> LC 9.0.5 Business is showing here the well known  "This app is not
> optimised for your Mac". If LC 9.05 is the last of the 9.0.x release cycle,
> will that mean, that 9.0.5 will not run under Catalina?
>
> Regards,
>
> Matthias
>
>
> Matthias Rebbe
>
> free tools for Livecoders:
> InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
> WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>
>
> > Am 04.10.2019 um 13:53 schrieb panagiotis merakos via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> >
> > Dear list members,
> >
> > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.0.5 STABLE.
> >
> >
> > Getting the Release
> > ===================
> > You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ <
> https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/> or via
> > the automatic updater.
> >
> >
> > Release Contents
> > ================
> > LiveCode 9.0.5 comes with more than 60 bugfixes, compared to the last
> > stable 9.0.x version (9.0.4), including fixes to several memory leaks
> that
> > had been around for a long time. Moreover, dozens of Dictionary entries
> > have been corrected and enhanced.
> >
> > Finally, the random crashes when using the debugger and
> > adding/removing/stepping through red dot breakpoints have been fixed.
> >
> > Note that this release is the *last* of the 9.0.x release cycle.
> >
> > All these fixes - and many more - will be included in our new maintenance
> > release cycle, that is 9.5.x.
> >
> > New features will now appear in the 9.6.x release cycle.
> >
> >
> > Known issues
> > ================
> > - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros
> with
> > Cinnamon window manager.
> > - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit
> LTS
> > yet.
> >
> > The full release notes are available from:
> >
> > http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf <
> http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_0_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_0_5.pdf>
> >
> >
> > Feedback
> > ========
> > Please report any bugs encountered on our BugZilla at
> > http://quality.livecode.com/ <http://quality.livecode.com/>
> >
> > We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at
> > http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 <
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93>
> >
> >
> > Have fun!
> > The LiveCode Team
> > --
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
> Matthias Rebbe
>
> free tools for Livecoders:
> InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
> WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct  4 11:09:25 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 15:09:25 +0000
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
Message-ID: <3B0005AA-2B35-4A86-81B7-9B3AC698C74A@iotecdigital.com>

If Windows were girlfriends...

I used to hate Windows, back before 1995. I swore I'd never have anything to do with her, always pretending to be pretty, but it was just a mask over top of that ugly DOS. Windows 2000... nuther MEH! BORING! 

XP! Now there was an improvement! I actually LIKED XP for a lot of reasons. Until the "compromising" of MD5 encryption. I could never share anything intimate with her again. Never mention ME in my presence. EVER! I swear I never touched her! 

Then there was Windows 7. Ahhhh, seven. The Hebrew number for Completeness! How good and sweet that relationship was! I thought it would never end. I was a changed man. I could love again! 

Then one day Daddy Microsoft busted the door down, took her by the hand, hauled her out the door and told me I would never see her again. Her ugly younger sister, Vista stayed behind to comfort me. That turned out badly. I stopped answering her text messages. She changed her name to Windows 8 thinking I wouldn't notice. Yeah... no. 

Now I'm with Windows 10. Not what I would have asked for, but it's all that's left to me now. Weighs too much, moves too slow, looks bland, Very few curves, and is always making me work harder to get what I want from her. Keeps second guessing me, asking me if I really want to do what I just told her I wanted to do. Then asks again just to be sure. Sometimes doesn't do it anyway. Claims it would be "dangerous" and "damaging". <sigh> 

I will always pine for my Windows 7. I could click her start button and get her going right away! And I would get exactly what I expected to get. Now, I have to search for what I want, and most of the time it's suggested I go elsewhere, like the internet to get it. 

:-)
Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 01:34 , Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Oct  4 11:35:08 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:35:08 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <3B0005AA-2B35-4A86-81B7-9B3AC698C74A@iotecdigital.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <3B0005AA-2B35-4A86-81B7-9B3AC698C74A@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d57ac9$5030ac80$f0920580$@net>

Bob,
Agreed... I held out to the bitter end with XP(security) then Win 7(EOL
1/2020) So I went to 10.
Whilst Win 10 does have its annoying issues(forced updates) I generally like
it. I set updates to ask me before updating so I/ME/Mine can decide when to
install. I now run Win 10 Hyper-V with a few VMs with no problems since
2016. 10 is my new XP/7. I would like to have XP and also not get striped
searched at the airport but 10s security and features outweigh my love for
XP and not getting high-jacked outweighs my nostalgia of breezing through
the airport. Change is both good and bad but I flow in the direction of the
least safe resistance.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2019 11:09 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Bob Sneidar
Subject: Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 

If Windows were girlfriends...

I used to hate Windows, back before 1995. I swore I'd never have anything to
do with her, always pretending to be pretty, but it was just a mask over top
of that ugly DOS. Windows 2000... nuther MEH! BORING! 

XP! Now there was an improvement! I actually LIKED XP for a lot of reasons.
Until the "compromising" of MD5 encryption. I could never share anything
intimate with her again. Never mention ME in my presence. EVER! I swear I
never touched her! 

Then there was Windows 7. Ahhhh, seven. The Hebrew number for Completeness!
How good and sweet that relationship was! I thought it would never end. I
was a changed man. I could love again! 

Then one day Daddy Microsoft busted the door down, took her by the hand,
hauled her out the door and told me I would never see her again. Her ugly
younger sister, Vista stayed behind to comfort me. That turned out badly. I
stopped answering her text messages. She changed her name to Windows 8
thinking I wouldn't notice. Yeah... no. 

Now I'm with Windows 10. Not what I would have asked for, but it's all
that's left to me now. Weighs too much, moves too slow, looks bland, Very
few curves, and is always making me work harder to get what I want from her.
Keeps second guessing me, asking me if I really want to do what I just told
her I wanted to do. Then asks again just to be sure. Sometimes doesn't do it
anyway. Claims it would be "dangerous" and "damaging". <sigh> 

I will always pine for my Windows 7. I could click her start button and get
her going right away! And I would get exactly what I expected to get. Now, I
have to search for what I want, and most of the time it's suggested I go
elsewhere, like the internet to get it. 

:-)
Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 01:34 , Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for
both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Fri Oct  4 11:33:26 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 08:33:26 -0700
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <367ed044-6eb2-e1b9-d3e0-6a1aa6fedefa@pair.com>
References: <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <367ed044-6eb2-e1b9-d3e0-6a1aa6fedefa@pair.com>
Message-ID: <c22d73a6-0a30-5e40-19f6-1d0e925a86c2@sonic.net>

On 10/4/19 1:55 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:

> PS. When "debugging" your antivirus, system settings, and other software 
> to make your machine operate more smoothly, it's helpful to open the 
> Task Manager and sort the Processes list by Disk. You'll discover the 
> issues faster that way. (In previous years, I usually would have sorted 
> by Memory or CPU.) Once you get those issues sorted out, your 
> cross-platform experience will be very different.

Or do yourself a favor and upgrade to Process Lasso. The free version 
was so impressive that we bought a lifetime license ($36!) some years 
ago and never looked back.

https://bitsum.com/

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From kurtkaufman at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  4 12:19:26 2019
From: kurtkaufman at hotmail.com (Kurt Kaufman)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:19:26 +0000
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1570204801.350728.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.3.1570204801.350728.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <BY5PR11MB4056B2B6D73366205F665D2EAC9E0@BY5PR11MB4056.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

There are probably quite a few who, like me, have used LC/RR/MC for years, creating in-house labor-saving devices (for myself, they are mostly of the variety "pull A,B, and C from X, rearrange them and format them to Y, and spit the result out as a text file").  Could I have [attempted] to write these un-glamorous utilities in another language? Probably, but I really am not a "natural" programmer, so I greatly appreciate the shortcuts to functionality that LC provides. I sometimes watch this list for new developments or other news, and I am grateful to be able to query it for help when I need a function that I can't figure out on my own. Some bumps here and there, but I am like the fact that the discourse here is almost always civil.
Thanks!
-Kurt


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct  4 12:27:17 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:27:17 +0000
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <9014945D-0602-4259-A8D3-7C5F070E52EF@livecode.com>
References: <354669D2-283C-4FA2-BBE9-92B4E20A1429@livecode.com>
 <3E75CE2D-E417-4EC3-93B4-1F734295BD4C@pidigital.co.uk>
 <9014945D-0602-4259-A8D3-7C5F070E52EF@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <70C3C2D9-5514-43CD-8231-1CB9B5CD4634@iotecdigital.com>

Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 04:36 , Heather Laine via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> We do not as yet have the ability to time travel in order to prevent the issue having arisen.




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct  4 12:28:46 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:28:46 +0000
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <001f01d57ac9$5030ac80$f0920580$@net>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <3B0005AA-2B35-4A86-81B7-9B3AC698C74A@iotecdigital.com>
 <001f01d57ac9$5030ac80$f0920580$@net>
Message-ID: <0FA389E8-FC3A-4184-A733-5766E0B32FAF@iotecdigital.com>

Tell your girlfriend/wife that you generally like her, but she has annoying issues. I hope the couch is comfy. LOL! 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 08:35 , Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> Agreed... I held out to the bitter end with XP(security) then Win 7(EOL
> 1/2020) So I went to 10.
> Whilst Win 10 does have its annoying issues(forced updates) I generally like
> it. 




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Oct  4 12:33:24 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 09:33:24 -0700
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>

Martin Koob wrote:
 > I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
 > need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
 > environment.
 >
 > Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC?
 > processor, speed, RAM, etc.

Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a 
VM and rarely actually needed.

I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and 
Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, 
even for a project I've been working on writing an interface for a 
client's custom USB-driven hardware.

If you go metal, go cheap.  You won't be using it often anyway, and a 
machine at or below average consumer specs helps inspire lean code that 
delights your customers, while keeping a little extra money in your 
pocket for important things like a nice dinner out.  CPUs a generation 
or two behind will still give you plenty of useful lifespan, yet are 
often discounted as most folks clamor for the Latest and Greatest.

4GB RAM is a reasonable minimum for a testing machine.  Almost nothing 
worth using ships with less these days.

If you do use a separate physical machine, I can't say enough good 
things about the value of having your work files and LC Plugins folder 
synced via Nextcloud or other folder syncing system (Dropbox et al). 
This will automate transfers between machines, saving a lot of the 
annoyance of manual copies.  And for my Plugins folder it's been awesome 
- no matter where I'm working I always know I have my latest toolkit.


All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a 
few years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used 
anything else since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used 
Parallels I found VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction 
of the time.

With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the 
test OS has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.

Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 
16 GB feels luxurious.

Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is 
the present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't 
matter for testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be 
useful to spin up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the 
action is today, and tomorrow.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct  4 12:57:38 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:57:38 +0000
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <22A9730D-28AA-4BE2-876D-97524E04D9F8@iotecdigital.com>

Just to add something here. Using an SSD instead of an HDD will make a crappy computer run like a decent one. Hard Drive data transfer is the single most important factor in the speed of a computer. Some might say memory, but more memory makes it faster only because the HDD needs to be accessed less for Virtual Memory, hence making my point for me. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 09:33 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Martin Koob wrote:
> > I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> > need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
> > environment.
> >
> > Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC?
> > processor, speed, RAM, etc.
> 
> Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a VM and rarely actually needed.
> 
> I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, even for a project I've been working on writing an interface for a client's custom USB-driven hardware.


From martyknappster at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 13:00:54 2019
From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:00:54 -0700
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <D99E3B7A-54A3-42BE-B12C-E880ADC4008F@gmail.com>

I use Parallels + Windows 10 and a while back I switched to an SSD drive - wow what a difference that made, especially boot up time. I could never go back to using a virtual machine on a standard hard drive.

Marty

> On Oct 4, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Martin Koob wrote:
> > I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> > need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
> > environment.
> >
> > Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC?
> > processor, speed, RAM, etc.
> 
> Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a VM and rarely actually needed.
> 
> I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, even for a project I've been working on writing an interface for a client's custom USB-driven hardware.
> 
> If you go metal, go cheap.  You won't be using it often anyway, and a machine at or below average consumer specs helps inspire lean code that delights your customers, while keeping a little extra money in your pocket for important things like a nice dinner out.  CPUs a generation or two behind will still give you plenty of useful lifespan, yet are often discounted as most folks clamor for the Latest and Greatest.
> 
> 4GB RAM is a reasonable minimum for a testing machine.  Almost nothing worth using ships with less these days.
> 
> If you do use a separate physical machine, I can't say enough good things about the value of having your work files and LC Plugins folder synced via Nextcloud or other folder syncing system (Dropbox et al). This will automate transfers between machines, saving a lot of the annoyance of manual copies.  And for my Plugins folder it's been awesome - no matter where I'm working I always know I have my latest toolkit.
> 
> 
> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
> 
> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
> 
> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB feels luxurious.
> 
> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and tomorrow.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dsc at swcp.com  Fri Oct  4 13:40:16 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:40:16 -0600
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
Message-ID: <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>

The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 

I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.

It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.

The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.

So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk, but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something with a touch screen that I can carry around.

In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.

And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us old guys.

As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing? No searching for switches, routers and cables. 

Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower, but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing, anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.

I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for the first year, $800 for subsequent. 

Dar
Mad Scientist


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended specs for Windows Development computer"
> 
> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)
> 
> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows only" experience:
> 
> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, and similar results.
> 
> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more....
> 
> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
> 
> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
> 
> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and chains.
> 
> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other operating systems.
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Oct  4 13:47:02 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:47:02 -0700
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>
References: <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66ea098e-49e4-f6ab-030b-a86b11e6886f@fourthworld.com>

The question was: Where is LiveCode now?

It's in the 21st century, where proprietary software continues to thrive 
in consumer segments, but nearly all infrastructure and dev tools are 
Free and Open Source.

Compare and contrast:

-----
Python in the third most popular language in the world.

Python is a language engine only. It has no IDE of its own, relying on 
third-party tools.  It has no packaging tools built in for mobile, and 
third-party offerings are so scarce that there are fewer Python apps in 
the mobile app stores than there are made with LiveCode.  Even things we 
take for granted like having any user interface at all are treated like 
an afterthought, achievable only with your research into the various 
third-party options for such things, and your willingness to learn and 
integrate those add-on frameworks.

Python has many major players funding it:
https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/

Python has a very active community, with few on payroll and most pull 
requests coming from the community.

-----
LiveCode has made it into TIOBE's Top 100 languages list, but currently 
in the lower 50.

LiveCode has similar platform coverage, but with a rich IDE, built-in 
mobile packaging, and GUI support that's not merely included but an 
integral part of the language.

While LC has thousands of subscribers for the proprietary editions, it 
has no sponsors as big as Facebook, CapitalOne, AWS, or Google funding 
it. Even among the many companies deriving significant value from LC, 
some of the most successful businesses using LC for internal tools often 
use the Community edition and make few if any donations.

The LC community has only about half a dozen community members 
submitting pull requests with any regularity (big THANK YOU to those who 
do), despite half the project, the IDE, being written in the scripting 
language everyone in the community knows and loves.

-----

In short, LiveCode delivers more, and does so with fewer resources.

In too many ways to count, comparisons between languages will always be 
unfair, and this oversimplified summary is no exception.  Details about 
history, shifting markets over time, and more than a little random luck 
play a role in adoption as much as anything else.

So I mean no disrespect to our scripting cousins using Python when I 
note how much LC delivers.

But I do mean to illustrate how much LC Ltd accomplishes with the 
resources at their disposal.

Rather than rebut the wealth of Dunning-Kruger inspired kvetching that 
has come to characterize a small corner of this community, or to 
contribute any kvetching of my own, I believe it's more productive to 
make choices about how we use our time which support productive outcomes.

To reorient, rather than ask, "Where is LiveCode now?", we might ask:

"Where would we like LiveCode to be?"

And when we have the luxury to choose how we spend our time, maybe we 
could choose to spend that time making what we want to have.

I would like to propose this forked thread be used to brainstorm ideas 
for how we can use time that might be spent on less productive outcomes 
toward having what we want with LC.

As good ideas emerge, I will do what I can in the role of Community 
Laison to help steward such things along.

But please, I forked this thread for a reason:  this is for initiatives 
to move things forward, to have what we want.  Please use other threads 
for other purposes.  I find across much of life that when I spend too 
much time focused on things I don't want, it stifles awareness of 
opportunities to have what I do want.

Lets have what we want.

"Make it so, Number One."


-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  LiveCode Community Laison




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 14:09:24 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 21:09:24 +0300
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <66ea098e-49e4-f6ab-030b-a86b11e6886f@fourthworld.com>
References: <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>
 <66ea098e-49e4-f6ab-030b-a86b11e6886f@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <254024b5-a363-93fc-c711-4ee1493b3ba7@gmail.com>

I would like LiveCode to be "up there" in the top 5 of languages
used in school world-wide for teaching within the next 10 years.

I would like private educational institutions to invest in LiveCode
and supply large-scale feedback to LiveCode Central as to any
educational enhancements they may feel will improve the IDE for teaching 
purposes.

For this to happen LiveCode has to be integrated into the curricula of 
standardised
examinations.

In England and Scotland educationalists are complaining about an 
alarming decrease
in high-school students enrolling in programming classes. I believe a 
lot of this is due
to an extremely steep start to the learning curve offered by the 
languages that are
currently "up there" and that LiveCode offers a far, far gentler entry 
point to
young learners.

Richmond.

On 4.10.19 20:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> The question was: Where is LiveCode now?
>
> It's in the 21st century, where proprietary software continues to 
> thrive in consumer segments, but nearly all infrastructure and dev 
> tools are Free and Open Source.
>
> Compare and contrast:
>
> -----
> Python in the third most popular language in the world.
>
> Python is a language engine only. It has no IDE of its own, relying on 
> third-party tools.? It has no packaging tools built in for mobile, and 
> third-party offerings are so scarce that there are fewer Python apps 
> in the mobile app stores than there are made with LiveCode.? Even 
> things we take for granted like having any user interface at all are 
> treated like an afterthought, achievable only with your research into 
> the various third-party options for such things, and your willingness 
> to learn and integrate those add-on frameworks.
>
> Python has many major players funding it:
> https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/
>
> Python has a very active community, with few on payroll and most pull 
> requests coming from the community.
>
> -----
> LiveCode has made it into TIOBE's Top 100 languages list, but 
> currently in the lower 50.
>
> LiveCode has similar platform coverage, but with a rich IDE, built-in 
> mobile packaging, and GUI support that's not merely included but an 
> integral part of the language.
>
> While LC has thousands of subscribers for the proprietary editions, it 
> has no sponsors as big as Facebook, CapitalOne, AWS, or Google funding 
> it. Even among the many companies deriving significant value from LC, 
> some of the most successful businesses using LC for internal tools 
> often use the Community edition and make few if any donations.
>
> The LC community has only about half a dozen community members 
> submitting pull requests with any regularity (big THANK YOU to those 
> who do), despite half the project, the IDE, being written in the 
> scripting language everyone in the community knows and loves.
>
> -----
>
> In short, LiveCode delivers more, and does so with fewer resources.
>
> In too many ways to count, comparisons between languages will always 
> be unfair, and this oversimplified summary is no exception.? Details 
> about history, shifting markets over time, and more than a little 
> random luck play a role in adoption as much as anything else.
>
> So I mean no disrespect to our scripting cousins using Python when I 
> note how much LC delivers.
>
> But I do mean to illustrate how much LC Ltd accomplishes with the 
> resources at their disposal.
>
> Rather than rebut the wealth of Dunning-Kruger inspired kvetching that 
> has come to characterize a small corner of this community, or to 
> contribute any kvetching of my own, I believe it's more productive to 
> make choices about how we use our time which support productive outcomes.
>
> To reorient, rather than ask, "Where is LiveCode now?", we might ask:
>
> "Where would we like LiveCode to be?"
>
> And when we have the luxury to choose how we spend our time, maybe we 
> could choose to spend that time making what we want to have.
>
> I would like to propose this forked thread be used to brainstorm ideas 
> for how we can use time that might be spent on less productive 
> outcomes toward having what we want with LC.
>
> As good ideas emerge, I will do what I can in the role of Community 
> Laison to help steward such things along.
>
> But please, I forked this thread for a reason:? this is for 
> initiatives to move things forward, to have what we want.? Please use 
> other threads for other purposes.? I find across much of life that 
> when I spend too much time focused on things I don't want, it stifles 
> awareness of opportunities to have what I do want.
>
> Lets have what we want.
>
> "Make it so, Number One."
>
>




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 14:25:38 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 21:25:38 +0300
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
Message-ID: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>

I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?

After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".

I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"

Richmond.





From dochawk at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 15:12:03 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 12:12:03 -0700
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <70C3C2D9-5514-43CD-8231-1CB9B5CD4634@iotecdigital.com>
References: <354669D2-283C-4FA2-BBE9-92B4E20A1429@livecode.com>
 <3E75CE2D-E417-4EC3-93B4-1F734295BD4C@pidigital.co.uk>
 <9014945D-0602-4259-A8D3-7C5F070E52EF@livecode.com>
 <70C3C2D9-5514-43CD-8231-1CB9B5CD4634@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <F7B17B60-3BE0-4FF0-9A3E-CF8EF82FA4B2@gmail.com>


On Oct 4, 2019, at 9:27 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks. 


I?ll bring it up when we meet last week.  She seems to have misplaced next month?s message . . .

? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From brian at milby7.com  Fri Oct  4 15:47:38 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 15:47:38 -0400
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
References: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee1b8b79-2f3c-4e30-a1cd-d25ffc2ac682@Spark>

9.0.x merely fixes bugs
9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix releases)

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
> as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
>
> After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
>
> I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
> released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
> numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
>
> Richmond.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jjs at krutt.org  Fri Oct  4 15:57:02 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 21:57:02 +0200
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <254024b5-a363-93fc-c711-4ee1493b3ba7@gmail.com>
References: <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>
 <66ea098e-49e4-f6ab-030b-a86b11e6886f@fourthworld.com>
 <254024b5-a363-93fc-c711-4ee1493b3ba7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1b50f15f-e8d4-3f8d-25fa-26b01abe533d@krutt.org>

I agree with this, Livecode gives fairly quick insight in the 
programming process

Op 4-10-2019 om 20:09 schreef Richmond via use-livecode:
> I would like LiveCode to be "up there" in the top 5 of languages
> used in school world-wide for teaching within the next 10 years.
>
> I would like private educational institutions to invest in LiveCode
> and supply large-scale feedback to LiveCode Central as to any
> educational enhancements they may feel will improve the IDE for 
> teaching purposes.
>
> For this to happen LiveCode has to be integrated into the curricula of 
> standardised
> examinations.
>
> In England and Scotland educationalists are complaining about an 
> alarming decrease
> in high-school students enrolling in programming classes. I believe a 
> lot of this is due
> to an extremely steep start to the learning curve offered by the 
> languages that are
> currently "up there" and that LiveCode offers a far, far gentler entry 
> point to
> young learners.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 4.10.19 20:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> The question was: Where is LiveCode now?
>>
>> It's in the 21st century, where proprietary software continues to 
>> thrive in consumer segments, but nearly all infrastructure and dev 
>> tools are Free and Open Source.
>>
>> Compare and contrast:
>>
>> -----
>> Python in the third most popular language in the world.
>>
>> Python is a language engine only. It has no IDE of its own, relying 
>> on third-party tools.? It has no packaging tools built in for mobile, 
>> and third-party offerings are so scarce that there are fewer Python 
>> apps in the mobile app stores than there are made with LiveCode.? 
>> Even things we take for granted like having any user interface at all 
>> are treated like an afterthought, achievable only with your research 
>> into the various third-party options for such things, and your 
>> willingness to learn and integrate those add-on frameworks.
>>
>> Python has many major players funding it:
>> https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/
>>
>> Python has a very active community, with few on payroll and most pull 
>> requests coming from the community.
>>
>> -----
>> LiveCode has made it into TIOBE's Top 100 languages list, but 
>> currently in the lower 50.
>>
>> LiveCode has similar platform coverage, but with a rich IDE, built-in 
>> mobile packaging, and GUI support that's not merely included but an 
>> integral part of the language.
>>
>> While LC has thousands of subscribers for the proprietary editions, 
>> it has no sponsors as big as Facebook, CapitalOne, AWS, or Google 
>> funding it. Even among the many companies deriving significant value 
>> from LC, some of the most successful businesses using LC for internal 
>> tools often use the Community edition and make few if any donations.
>>
>> The LC community has only about half a dozen community members 
>> submitting pull requests with any regularity (big THANK YOU to those 
>> who do), despite half the project, the IDE, being written in the 
>> scripting language everyone in the community knows and loves.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> In short, LiveCode delivers more, and does so with fewer resources.
>>
>> In too many ways to count, comparisons between languages will always 
>> be unfair, and this oversimplified summary is no exception.? Details 
>> about history, shifting markets over time, and more than a little 
>> random luck play a role in adoption as much as anything else.
>>
>> So I mean no disrespect to our scripting cousins using Python when I 
>> note how much LC delivers.
>>
>> But I do mean to illustrate how much LC Ltd accomplishes with the 
>> resources at their disposal.
>>
>> Rather than rebut the wealth of Dunning-Kruger inspired kvetching 
>> that has come to characterize a small corner of this community, or to 
>> contribute any kvetching of my own, I believe it's more productive to 
>> make choices about how we use our time which support productive 
>> outcomes.
>>
>> To reorient, rather than ask, "Where is LiveCode now?", we might ask:
>>
>> "Where would we like LiveCode to be?"
>>
>> And when we have the luxury to choose how we spend our time, maybe we 
>> could choose to spend that time making what we want to have.
>>
>> I would like to propose this forked thread be used to brainstorm 
>> ideas for how we can use time that might be spent on less productive 
>> outcomes toward having what we want with LC.
>>
>> As good ideas emerge, I will do what I can in the role of Community 
>> Laison to help steward such things along.
>>
>> But please, I forked this thread for a reason:? this is for 
>> initiatives to move things forward, to have what we want. Please use 
>> other threads for other purposes.? I find across much of life that 
>> when I spend too much time focused on things I don't want, it stifles 
>> awareness of opportunities to have what I do want.
>>
>> Lets have what we want.
>>
>> "Make it so, Number One."
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Fri Oct  4 15:58:37 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 21:58:37 +0200
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
References: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73b101a0-1c13-7557-5706-5c22a1e03ede@krutt.org>

Yep, that's something i also do not fully understand, as 9.5.0 is of 
both worlds 32 and 64 bits

Op 4-10-2019 om 20:25 schreef Richmond via use-livecode:
> I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
> as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
>
> After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
>
> I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
> released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
> numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
>
> Richmond.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Fri Oct  4 16:00:24 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 22:00:24 +0200
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <ee1b8b79-2f3c-4e30-a1cd-d25ffc2ac682@Spark>
References: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
 <ee1b8b79-2f3c-4e30-a1cd-d25ffc2ac682@Spark>
Message-ID: <0416bbd3-ddf9-a526-0554-a43ecc62d9bd@krutt.org>

I understand, but these will be merged into 9.5.x ? right?

I might think people will go to 9.5.x instead of 9.0.5

Op 4-10-2019 om 21:47 schreef Brian Milby via use-livecode:
> 9.0.x merely fixes bugs
> 9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix releases)
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
>> as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
>>
>> After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
>>
>> I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
>> released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
>> numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct  4 17:08:28 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:08:28 -0500
Subject: Always negative
In-Reply-To: <566806f9-3c32-3ded-f0f1-0d8670f736b0@gmail.com>
References: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <16d95899d98.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <566806f9-3c32-3ded-f0f1-0d8670f736b0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16d9895ef50.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

Figuring it out is one of the challenges. I think you'd first need to 
prioritize the bugs you and others want fixed, which may be the hardest 
part. I know LC faces that daily, their criteria is to prioritize by 
severity and/or by the number of people the issue impacts. You and whoever 
joins you may want to add different ways of measuring it.

Once you have a few pinned down, you'd want to check with the team to see 
how many hours and how much it might cost. Then you'd have a target goal.

I wouldn't personally use Indigogo because if the goal isn't reached the 
money is not returned. Kickstarter doesn't require payment until the goal 
is fully pledged. There are probably other ways to do it, that would be up 
to the organizer to research.

Then you'll need to wait to see if anyone pledges/pays/whatever and the 
target is met. If so, you hand over the money to LC and move on to the next 
target if you like.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 4, 2019 3:51:49 AM Richmond via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yes, I am willing to organise a fundraiser to help finance ironing out
> LiveCode bugs.
>
> I am, however, not sure how to go about that;
>
> 1. Set up a 'thing' on Indiegogo (because this is not a fund-raiser to
> have a set lower limit)?
>
> 2. Link it to a dedicated bank account belonging to LiveCode?
>
> 3. Perform some sort of triage to rank LC bugs?
>
> 4. Have a way to award badges for people who donate to squash particular
> bugs?
>
> I believe that this is quite a useful model:
> https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/
>
> If this would work I am more than willing to "put my time where my mouth
> is" and run this.
>
> On 4.10.19 9:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new
>> feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only
>> needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>
>> On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not entirely.
>>>
>>>
>>> I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is
>>> doable
>>> and makes any business sense is a big question.
>>>
>>>
>>> Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months,
>>> say)
>>> and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.
>>>
>>>
>>> Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
>>> features they really wanted seeing to.
>>>
>>>
>>> Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct  4 17:08:30 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:08:30 -0500
Subject: Always negative
In-Reply-To: <566806f9-3c32-3ded-f0f1-0d8670f736b0@gmail.com>
References: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <16d95899d98.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <566806f9-3c32-3ded-f0f1-0d8670f736b0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16d989a3ce0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

BTW, LiveCode has set up their own Kickstarter-type web site in the past. 
Maybe they'd be willing to help with that if they aren't too busy.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 4, 2019 3:51:49 AM Richmond via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yes, I am willing to organise a fundraiser to help finance ironing out
> LiveCode bugs.
>
> I am, however, not sure how to go about that;
>
> 1. Set up a 'thing' on Indiegogo (because this is not a fund-raiser to
> have a set lower limit)?
>
> 2. Link it to a dedicated bank account belonging to LiveCode?
>
> 3. Perform some sort of triage to rank LC bugs?
>
> 4. Have a way to award badges for people who donate to squash particular
> bugs?
>
> I believe that this is quite a useful model:
> https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/
>
> If this would work I am more than willing to "put my time where my mouth
> is" and run this.
>
> On 4.10.19 9:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new
>> feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only
>> needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>
>> On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not entirely.
>>>
>>>
>>> I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is
>>> doable
>>> and makes any business sense is a big question.
>>>
>>>
>>> Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months,
>>> say)
>>> and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.
>>>
>>>
>>> Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
>>> features they really wanted seeing to.
>>>
>>>
>>> Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From jeff at siphonophore.com  Fri Oct  4 17:52:54 2019
From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 17:52:54 -0400
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <mailman.29.1570223359.97209.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.29.1570223359.97209.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <83C437F6-3496-4564-8746-CAC93E9A3825@siphonophore.com>

That?s because she won?t write that message until a few months from now...

Jeff

On Oct 4, 2019, at 5:10 PM, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks. 
> 
> 
> I?ll bring it up when we meet last week.  She seems to have misplaced next month?s message . . .




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct  4 18:50:39 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 22:50:39 +0000
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <83C437F6-3496-4564-8746-CAC93E9A3825@siphonophore.com>
References: <mailman.29.1570223359.97209.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
 <83C437F6-3496-4564-8746-CAC93E9A3825@siphonophore.com>
Message-ID: <1EFE71FD-FDE9-4C1B-A29E-7C8874C1D0F7@iotecdigital.com>

On an old sock. Which explains why it's missing. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 14:52 , Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> That?s because she won?t write that message until a few months from now...
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Oct 4, 2019, at 5:10 PM, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks. 
>> 
>> 
>> I?ll bring it up when we meet last week.  She seems to have misplaced next month?s message . . .
> 


From brian at milby7.com  Fri Oct  4 19:20:47 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 19:20:47 -0400
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <0416bbd3-ddf9-a526-0554-a43ecc62d9bd@krutt.org>
References: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
 <ee1b8b79-2f3c-4e30-a1cd-d25ffc2ac682@Spark>
 <0416bbd3-ddf9-a526-0554-a43ecc62d9bd@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <ca46b7e3-d995-44da-b2e6-23796b75d62b@Spark>

Yes, any bug fixes in 9.0.5 will be (or have been) merged into the 9.5 branch.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 4, 2019, 4:01 PM -0400, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> I understand, but these will be merged into 9.5.x ? right?
>
> I might think people will go to 9.5.x instead of 9.0.5
>
> Op 4-10-2019 om 21:47 schreef Brian Milby via use-livecode:
> > 9.0.x merely fixes bugs
> > 9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix releases)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
> > On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > > I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
> > > as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
> > >
> > > After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
> > >
> > > I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
> > > released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
> > > numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
> > >
> > > Richmond.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From dalton.calford at gmail.com  Fri Oct  4 19:37:01 2019
From: dalton.calford at gmail.com (Dalton Calford)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 19:37:01 -0400
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <ca46b7e3-d995-44da-b2e6-23796b75d62b@Spark>
References: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
 <ee1b8b79-2f3c-4e30-a1cd-d25ffc2ac682@Spark>
 <0416bbd3-ddf9-a526-0554-a43ecc62d9bd@krutt.org>
 <ca46b7e3-d995-44da-b2e6-23796b75d62b@Spark>
Message-ID: <CANY9GwrHP-M3r8vLdKt0LO4EGV6VaW+dc0KpgeUH4jKQjkv4vA@mail.gmail.com>

9.05 is for the foolish people who bought the special indy license for
version 9
You know, the people who where expecting a stable product that was feature
complete for the version.
Unfortunately, such a beast does not exist.
I will not make the same mistake again.

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 19:21, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yes, any bug fixes in 9.0.5 will be (or have been) merged into the 9.5
> branch.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 4, 2019, 4:01 PM -0400, JJS via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > I understand, but these will be merged into 9.5.x ? right?
> >
> > I might think people will go to 9.5.x instead of 9.0.5
> >
> > Op 4-10-2019 om 21:47 schreef Brian Milby via use-livecode:
> > > 9.0.x merely fixes bugs
> > > 9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix
> releases)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Brian
> > > On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > > > I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
> > > > as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
> > > >
> > > > After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
> > > >
> > > > I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
> > > > released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
> > > > numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
> > > >
> > > > Richmond.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct  4 20:34:18 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:34:18 -0500
Subject: Where LiveCode is Now
In-Reply-To: <F7B17B60-3BE0-4FF0-9A3E-CF8EF82FA4B2@gmail.com>
References: <354669D2-283C-4FA2-BBE9-92B4E20A1429@livecode.com>
 <3E75CE2D-E417-4EC3-93B4-1F734295BD4C@pidigital.co.uk>
 <9014945D-0602-4259-A8D3-7C5F070E52EF@livecode.com>
 <70C3C2D9-5514-43CD-8231-1CB9B5CD4634@iotecdigital.com>
 <F7B17B60-3BE0-4FF0-9A3E-CF8EF82FA4B2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16d988228d0.2783.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

Sorry, I didn't see it until January. It must have been forwarded.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 4, 2019 2:13:59 PM "Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode" 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On Oct 4, 2019, at 9:27 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Talk to Jacgue about that. Bring extra socks.
>
>
> I?ll bring it up when we meet last week.  She seems to have misplaced next 
> month?s message . . .
>
> ?
> Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> The Hawkins Law Firm
> 3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
> Suite 232
> Las Vegas, NV  89121
> (702) 508-8462
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From alex at tweedly.net  Fri Oct  4 21:26:07 2019
From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 02:26:07 +0100
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <66ea098e-49e4-f6ab-030b-a86b11e6886f@fourthworld.com>
References: <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>
 <66ea098e-49e4-f6ab-030b-a86b11e6886f@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <1ae8f74c-cdce-54a6-b202-461a5259b1fe@tweedly.net>

Thank you Richard for diverting us onto a more productive direction.

This won't be my only reply to this thread. This is mostly a discussion 
of? "what do I want", rather than "what can we do".

On 04/10/2019 18:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> "Where would we like LiveCode to be?"
>
Usually we think of a spectrum .... "good, better, best ...", or perhaps 
"easy, easier, easiest".

But in this context, the spectrum is backwards. We already have (IMO)

> LC is *the easiest* environment/language to develop cross-platform 
> apps for all major platforms
but I think we need to aim MUCH higher; I want to see

> LC is *an easy* environment/language to develop cross-platform apps 
> for all major platforms
>
That's right - it's already "easiest", but it's not "easy".

Currently you can't write even very simple apps using the 'built-in', 
cross-platform features and get something acceptable for the mobile 
platforms. You need to use some combination of "mobileXXX' and? 
"iosXXX'" or "androidXXX" functions to get something that is even 
remotely acceptable as a 'finished' app.

We even have an entire (ok, short :-) lesson on how to create a 
scrolling text field !!

> In this lesson we will see how to set up a native mobile scroller to 
> allow you to scroll the contents of a field.
IMHO, LC's built-in scrolling text field should do this (or whatever 
variation of this is needed) so that any scrolling text field will work, 
and look, and behave, as a user of each major platform would expect.

And if that is not possible, then we should have instead some new 
control, say "portable field" which abstracts out as much functionality 
as we can achieve cross-all-platform into easy-to-use controls. (And can 
probably use some clever backwards-compatability trick to allow easy 
porting of existing apps).

It's not just fields - for example "mobilePickDate" should *not* exist - 
there should just be a "pickDate" handler that works on all platforms; 
there should be a "textInput" handler that does 'the best it can' to 
provide appropriate functionality on *all* platforms - even if that 
means there are limitations in some implementations. Et cetera.


Of course, we also have to look at the problems of build / deployment on 
iOS and Android. There's lots of info about PWAs (Progressive Web Apps) 
- so much of it covered in so much hype and marketing, that as a casual 
reader I can't figure out exactly what to believe :-)? And my interest 
in spending time digging into it is limited by the fact that if it 
doesn't involve using Livecode then I'm almost certainly not interested :-)

But if even 25% of the hype is true, then it *should* be possible to 
produce such a web app with/from Livecode; all we need is offline 
operation/database or storage, pre-downloaded/installed executables, 
etc.? Even if this (again) required that we forego some of the existing 
controls (e.g. removing the current field, in favour of a portable 
field'), it should be possible to get a large subset of functionality on 
a way that can be deployed to all platforms.


OK, enough for tonight; more semi-rants tomorrow, and hopefully some 
actual useful suggestions by Monday :-) :-)

Alex.





From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Oct  4 22:18:33 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 22:18:33 -0400
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
References: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003201d57b23$32d7c150$988743f0$@net>

9.5 has a lot of other things that will take more effort to merge and test
all the bug fixes. 9.5 has features that could cause regressions. LC
released 9.0.5 to push out the bug fixes faster. LC apparently wanted to get
us all the bug fixes for users that don't need:
1) Xcode 11.1 / iOS 13.1 SDK.
2) 4 Android architectures.
3) 64 bit Windows apps/IDE.
4) PDF widget.

I need 9.5 for only some of my applications. I have apps that I can use
9.0.5 for. The 9.0.5 bug fixes/memory leak repair/debugger fixes will be of
great help for over 1/2 of the projects I'm currently working on. For me
9.0.5 is a welcome release. Just installed 9.0.5 and am going to have some
fun putting it through the paces this weekend(new toys!). I'm curious to see
how the fixed leaks will help my DB processing apps!
I've been doing a lot of JavaScript/LC server lately and I push as much if
it back to the server where LC makes development MUCH faster. Bottom line
==> LC has saved my company.

Thanks team for 9.0.5!

PS: I had several apps stop working last month because a 3rd party provider
changed their API without warning(egg on face). Thanks to MW's detective
work I was able to fix it fast. I have never seen a community come to each
other help like the one we have. An MS update broke another app last year
because of security changes. At least we have access to the LC team. That
3rd party provider did not even answer my email and well MS... Try to get
Apple to make an emergency fix, good luck. I want to thank the entire LC
team and all you folks on the list for making my life better. Now if I only
had JLG's time machine I'd be golden.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richmond via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2019 2:26 PM
To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Cc: Richmond
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5

I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable, as surely it has been
superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?

After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".

I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases released
after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version numbers work in the
"great scheme of thing?"

Richmond.



_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Sat Oct  5 07:22:36 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 06:22:36 -0500
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <CANY9GwrHP-M3r8vLdKt0LO4EGV6VaW+dc0KpgeUH4jKQjkv4vA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
 <ee1b8b79-2f3c-4e30-a1cd-d25ffc2ac682@Spark>
 <0416bbd3-ddf9-a526-0554-a43ecc62d9bd@krutt.org>
 <ca46b7e3-d995-44da-b2e6-23796b75d62b@Spark>
 <CANY9GwrHP-M3r8vLdKt0LO4EGV6VaW+dc0KpgeUH4jKQjkv4vA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG-gwC70nuLe3A_X85s9axe9JNgmXnmgSmfZc8Yazf+6kQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 6:38 PM Dalton Calford via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> 9.05 is for the foolish people who bought the special indy license for
> version 9


Or for those of us creating commercial applications with LiveCode. I know
the memory leak fixes in 9.0.5 improve my applications performance and
fixes crashes that customers were experiencing.

At the moment I can?t set aside time for my team to do the extra testing
required before moving development to 9.5 so I?m very grateful for 9.0.5.

Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps

>


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Sat Oct  5 08:11:30 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 15:11:30 +0300
Subject: Always negative
In-Reply-To: <16d9895ef50.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <16d95899d98.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <566806f9-3c32-3ded-f0f1-0d8670f736b0@gmail.com>
 <16d9895ef50.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <f3fcfd24-fe3c-8cb8-eda5-7f7632e52c93@gmail.com>



On 5.10.19 0:08, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> Figuring it out is one of the challenges.

Yes.

> I think you'd first need to prioritize the bugs you and others want 
> fixed, which may be the hardest part. I know LC faces that daily, 
> their criteria is to prioritize by severity and/or by the number of 
> people the issue impacts.

I have had some help from Richard G. re filtering bug reports over on 
the Forums.

I think that my first bit of work will be to perform some sort of triage 
there, and then lob the results to
LiveCode central so they can say, "load of cr*p", "makes sense", or 
provide their own list.

> You and whoever joins you may want to add different ways of measuring it.
>
> Once you have a few pinned down, you'd want to check with the team to 
> see how many hours and how much it might cost. Then you'd have a 
> target goal.
>
> I wouldn't personally use Indigogo because if the goal isn't reached 
> the money is not returned. 

That's odd as I ran an Indiegogo campaign last year for funding for my 
Devawriter Pro: reached nowhere near the target, but the Indiegogo 
people still sent me the funds I did raise
.
> Kickstarter doesn't require payment until the goal is fully pledged. 
> There are probably other ways to do it, that would be up to the 
> organizer to research.
>
> Then you'll need to wait to see if anyone pledges/pays/whatever and 
> the target is met. If so, you hand over the money to LC 

I don't think I would feel comfortable collecting money and THEN handing 
it over to LC: I would feel far happier if the money were directly 
funnelled into a LiveCode account.

> and move on to the next target if you like.
>
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On October 4, 2019 3:51:49 AM Richmond via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I am willing to organise a fundraiser to help finance ironing out
>> LiveCode bugs.
>>
>> I am, however, not sure how to go about that;
>>
>> 1. Set up a 'thing' on Indiegogo (because this is not a fund-raiser to
>> have a set lower limit)?
>>
>> 2. Link it to a dedicated bank account belonging to LiveCode?
>>
>> 3. Perform some sort of triage to rank LC bugs?
>>
>> 4. Have a way to award badges for people who donate to squash particular
>> bugs?
>>
>> I believe that this is quite a useful model:
>> https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/
>>
>> If this would work I am more than willing to "put my time where my mouth
>> is" and run this.
>>
>> On 4.10.19 9:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>>> The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new
>>> feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only
>>> needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>
>>> On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not entirely.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is
>>>> doable
>>>> and makes any business sense is a big question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months,
>>>> say)
>>>> and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
>>>> features they really wanted seeing to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From roland.huettmann at gmail.com  Sat Oct  5 08:27:53 2019
From: roland.huettmann at gmail.com (R.H.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 14:27:53 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
Message-ID: <CAG1Q0g9TFYn__79VFX_aAEdjtwFmZKLF9yv6dBjLQ-i63rW6cA@mail.gmail.com>

Windows on dedicated hardware is my choice.  Only then you really can say
that you tested on Windows. The brand of the hardware (metal) is not
important in this case. You are not confined to a closed system as with
Apple.

I am exlusively using Windows 10 and I am quite happy with it. I do not
even want more fancy staff.

Windows XP and Windows 7 are outdated. It makes no sense using outdated
systems, unsupported, probably vulnerable. Go for Windows 10, 64bit, latest
version -- regularly updated and upgraded by Microsoft.

8 MB RAM should really be minimum standard. Better are 16. Have at least
200 GB extra space on your harddrive.

The problem with LiveCode's IDE on Windows is that the script editor is not
optimized, even though improved. So, a faster computer and more memory and
a SSD are quite helpful. But I do not want to open the bug box.

And I cannot resist saying that the IDE on Windows does not provide the
user interface (even when using the local theme) that today's users expect.
That is extra work to implement modern themes (Microsoft, Google, etc.)
with expected functionality built-in -- and it should come out of the box
(in an ideal world).

Most time I spend is with user interface design when I count my developing
hours.

Also, I am now using an extra wide screen instead of two separate monitors.
I would not go back to two separate monitors. For development work, I can
only recommend an extra wide single screen --but do not buy the cheapest
model.

All customers I know use Windows. There is not really any choice.

If I purchased a server, I would go for Unix based systems. But there are
so many inexpensive providers of server space that I did not see the
immediate need.

Roland


From roland.huettmann at gmail.com  Sat Oct  5 08:47:50 2019
From: roland.huettmann at gmail.com (R.H.)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 14:47:50 +0200
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
Message-ID: <CAG1Q0g97QSJ=2r7g6Npro3JDZE5HOhjkPGrbb_fgrOBo_nQ+zg@mail.gmail.com>

I always appreciate Richards insight and clear expressions. Thank you
Richard.

What do we really want LiveCode to be?

Honestly, I would enjoy LiveCode to replace JavaScript and would put this
as CHOICE NUMBER ONE, ONE and ONE.

And, of course, I know, this will not work.

Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I develop
even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same can be
done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page interface, but do
people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for single page
interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.

Probably, any other language faces the same dilemma. Maybe it could be
possible using LiveCode to translate LC source code to source code in
JavaScript? But probably not, since JavaScript heavily relies on the DOM in
the browser and LC basically has nothing to do with a browser and its
objects.

So, I am out of ideas.

Roland


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Sat Oct  5 10:16:03 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 15:16:03 +0100
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <CAG1Q0g97QSJ=2r7g6Npro3JDZE5HOhjkPGrbb_fgrOBo_nQ+zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1Q0g97QSJ=2r7g6Npro3JDZE5HOhjkPGrbb_fgrOBo_nQ+zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A3FE65B-B06C-4071-B52B-F64C1D335A6E@pidigital.co.uk>

Hi Roland

This is the very reason my client and I have opted for the HTML5 LC. Easy language for him to handle, operating in the browser, no need to go through IT departments to have it installed on their systems. This is a seriously MAJOR plus for us. 100% of my clients customers IT depts have adopted Chrome as their default browser whether on Mac or PC. 

Its got a large amount of issues though at the moment which I will be ironing out this month. I?m very keen to have it working. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 5 Oct 2019, at 13:47, R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?I always appreciate Richards insight and clear expressions. Thank you
> Richard.
> 
> What do we really want LiveCode to be?
> 
> Honestly, I would enjoy LiveCode to replace JavaScript and would put this
> as CHOICE NUMBER ONE, ONE and ONE.
> 
> And, of course, I know, this will not work.
> 
> Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
> everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I develop
> even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same can be
> done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page interface, but do
> people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for single page
> interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.
> 
> Probably, any other language faces the same dilemma. Maybe it could be
> possible using LiveCode to translate LC source code to source code in
> JavaScript? But probably not, since JavaScript heavily relies on the DOM in
> the browser and LC basically has nothing to do with a browser and its
> objects.
> 
> So, I am out of ideas.
> 
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Sat Oct  5 11:02:29 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2019 10:02:29 -0500
Subject: Always negative
In-Reply-To: <f3fcfd24-fe3c-8cb8-eda5-7f7632e52c93@gmail.com>
References: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <16d95899d98.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <566806f9-3c32-3ded-f0f1-0d8670f736b0@gmail.com>
 <16d9895ef50.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <f3fcfd24-fe3c-8cb8-eda5-7f7632e52c93@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

As organizer you should do it as you think best. What I meant by Indigogo 
not returning funds is that the donors don't get their money back. That's 
okay as long as the donors know that LC gets the money even if it isn't 
enough to fix the target bugs. Otherwise they may come back to you with the 
familiar refrain, "I paid and you didn't fulfill your promises."

I agree direct deposit to LC is best if you can set it up.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 5, 2019 7:13:23 AM Richmond via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 5.10.19 0:08, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> Figuring it out is one of the challenges.
>
> Yes.
>
>> I think you'd first need to prioritize the bugs you and others want
>> fixed, which may be the hardest part. I know LC faces that daily,
>> their criteria is to prioritize by severity and/or by the number of
>> people the issue impacts.
>
> I have had some help from Richard G. re filtering bug reports over on
> the Forums.
>
> I think that my first bit of work will be to perform some sort of triage
> there, and then lob the results to
> LiveCode central so they can say, "load of cr*p", "makes sense", or
> provide their own list.
>
>> You and whoever joins you may want to add different ways of measuring it.
>>
>> Once you have a few pinned down, you'd want to check with the team to
>> see how many hours and how much it might cost. Then you'd have a
>> target goal.
>>
>> I wouldn't personally use Indigogo because if the goal isn't reached
>> the money is not returned.
>
> That's odd as I ran an Indiegogo campaign last year for funding for my
> Devawriter Pro: reached nowhere near the target, but the Indiegogo
> people still sent me the funds I did raise
> .
>> Kickstarter doesn't require payment until the goal is fully pledged.
>> There are probably other ways to do it, that would be up to the
>> organizer to research.
>>
>> Then you'll need to wait to see if anyone pledges/pays/whatever and
>> the target is met. If so, you hand over the money to LC
>
> I don't think I would feel comfortable collecting money and THEN handing
> it over to LC: I would feel far happier if the money were directly
> funnelled into a LiveCode account.
>
>> and move on to the next target if you like.
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> On October 4, 2019 3:51:49 AM Richmond via use-livecode
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I am willing to organise a fundraiser to help finance ironing out
>>> LiveCode bugs.
>>>
>>> I am, however, not sure how to go about that;
>>>
>>> 1. Set up a 'thing' on Indiegogo (because this is not a fund-raiser to
>>> have a set lower limit)?
>>>
>>> 2. Link it to a dedicated bank account belonging to LiveCode?
>>>
>>> 3. Perform some sort of triage to rank LC bugs?
>>>
>>> 4. Have a way to award badges for people who donate to squash particular
>>> bugs?
>>>
>>> I believe that this is quite a useful model:
>>> https://home.unicode.org/adopt-a-character/
>>>
>>> If this would work I am more than willing to "put my time where my mouth
>>> is" and run this.
>>>
>>> On 4.10.19 9:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>>>> The fundraiser idea has been discussed before in regard to desired new
>>>> feature requests but it could easily be done for bugs as well. It only
>>>> needs someone to organize it. Are you willing?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>>>
>>>> On October 4, 2019 12:20:32 AM Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
>>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not entirely.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can put for what I regard as a positive suggestion. Whether it is
>>>>> doable
>>>>> and makes any business sense is a big question.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stop all continuing development for a fixed period of time (6 months,
>>>>> say)
>>>>> and attempt to sort out as many of the outstanding bugs as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Have a fundraiser where individuals could sponsor specific bugs and
>>>>> features they really wanted seeing to.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even "Awful Richmond" would stump up some money for that.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From paul at researchware.com  Sat Oct  5 11:19:15 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 11:19:15 -0400
Subject: Always negative
In-Reply-To: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CAL3fwtgYskeK3YQdMAcrCNS1Sq24tAOjiWWYjxT8qMgvYjP8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <16d95899d98.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <566806f9-3c32-3ded-f0f1-0d8670f736b0@gmail.com>
 <16d9895ef50.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <f3fcfd24-fe3c-8cb8-eda5-7f7632e52c93@gmail.com>
 <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <ed5d2d26-c314-4b8c-e7bd-8db7a4d37ce3@researchware.com>

I am not sure why LC doesn't just play a DONATE (via paypal or 
something) button on either the https://livecode.org/ page or the 
https://livecode.org/contribute/ page

It's kind of hidden, but in the footer of 
https://www.joomla.org/contribute-to-joomla.html there is a link to 
donate (https://community.joomla.org/sponsorship-campaigns.html)

Ubuntu has https://ubuntu.com/download/desktop/thank-you

Not every open source effort has a monetary contributions link, but many 
do - especially those without big corporate sponsors

If they had that link, especially if you could add a comment to your 
donation, people could donate and identify areas they'd like to see 
improvements on whether features or bug fixes.




From General.2018 at outlook.com  Sat Oct  5 12:56:17 2019
From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 16:56:17 +0000
Subject: Button scripts
Message-ID: <CWLP265MB03888626E067F54966FAAFA38F990@CWLP265MB0388.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi ,

Have many buttons that do different operations , each one has the following script :-

Is the script required for each button and is the use of flush correct ?

on mouseUp
set the bordercolor of me to orange
set showBorder of me to true
--- do something
get flushEvents("mouseUp")
end mouseUp



on mouseleave
set showBorder of me to false
get flushEvents("mouseleave")
end mouseleave


Regards
Camm


From curry at pair.com  Sat Oct  5 12:56:19 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:56:19 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <f4f5e72e-69d0-dd8c-d184-e0e1f828be13@pair.com>


I have a very humble proposal to move things forward in more positive 
manner, and entirely eliminate ALL negativity.

1. Start a Society for the Sanctuary and Protection of Pitiful, Even If 
Not Always Very Endangered, Bugs. If someone even notices a bug and 
looks at it, some little Bureaucrats and Activists will stare down that 
person in an intimidating manner. If that isn't enough, and someone 
actually reports a bug or (heaven forbid, and forgive me saying the 
words) tries to brutally "fix" or "work around" one of these dear 
creatures, it will be reported to the SSPPEINAVEB Chief and various 
government agencies. The bug-hating person will be arrested, questioned, 
defamed, tortured, perform a few years of community service taking care 
of bugs, and then dispatched.

2. Waste not, want not. It's not very "green" and eco-friendly to just 
"shoot the messenger" - that's so outdated and 1990s. Nowadays we need 
to use a blunt object in the first place (less pollution and 
contamination during the execution) and then more importantly utilize 
the ex-messenger's body to help nourish more bugs. All kinds of bugs are 
good. I envision a colony of old-fashioned insect bugs feeding on such 
negative refuse, and their activity and waste harnessed to create 
positive energy for generating more software bugs in an automated and 
sustainable fashion. The more people complain, the more bodies 
available, the more bugs we can have - that is literally turning 
negativity and net loss into positive results! People whine, bugs dine. 
(Bringing back the guillotine might also be an efficient tool in this 
process to transform negative to positive.)

3. Love the bugs. Bugs are so often misunderstood and underappreciated. 
How many bugs do you count as friends? Would you throw yourself in the 
path of an oncoming bullet or mackerel to save a bug? I have many 
friends who are bugs. I spend lots of time with bugs - I've met and 
interacted extensively with dozens this year alone! Heck, I hope to one 
day BE a bug and enjoy the protections and perks they have! They really 
get to travel a lot, meet a lot of people, and be famous. They reduce 
carbon and save energy when they shut down systems. And they never get 
tired. So love them and promote da love - write songs, blog about bugs 
in a positive way, adopt a bug, give a bug a hug, etc. Protect them with 
your very life. Save and protect a bug today, and spread the love every 
minute.

These three simple rules would eliminate negativity in both senses - 
whether to point out the abundance of bugs or (perish the thought) to 
reduce their ranks. Positive mentality and positive bug growth - that's 
what we need to create a truly symbiotic future with our little friends! 
Bugs are not the enemy - anyone who hates bugs is your enemy. Let a 
million bugs flourish!

(And never heed heretics who caution to code carefully and aim for a 
solid working product that customers new and old alike can depend on 
with fewer frustrations. They may claim a supposed mutual benefit, but 
following their depraved and evil notions would rob many deserving 
bugs-to-be of their future earthly existence, not to mention the holy 
hordes of current bugs, and throw our entire ecosystem into a 
net-negative condition with many bug-lives lost.)

If you hear such outlandish blasphemies uttered, please contact 
SSPPEINAVEB immediately for a generous bounty reward plus the famous "I 
LUVV BUGGS" SSPPEINAVEB T-shirt, which - BTW - you should wear at all 
times day and night to ensure that you are not mistaken for one of the 
bug haters and apprehended to become a bug's banquet.

Give a bug a hug!

More bugs to report soon...dozens already reported...still many LC 7/8 
bugs...good stable population of bugs...I was going to write an Ode to 
Bugs as poetry or song, but decided on this SSPPEINAVEB and GABAH 
instead; the more (bug-) "positive" approach.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/



From dunbarx at aol.com  Sat Oct  5 13:15:13 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 17:15:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Button scripts
In-Reply-To: <CWLP265MB03888626E067F54966FAAFA38F990@CWLP265MB0388.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <CWLP265MB03888626E067F54966FAAFA38F990@CWLP265MB0388.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1227174547.2658531.1570295713708@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi.
The "target" tells LC which control received a message. If you had a script in the card, something like:
on mouseUp
set the bordercolor of the Target to "orange"
set the showBorder of the target to "true"
--- do somethingend mouseUp
You would not only have quotes in places you ought to, but need only that one handler in your stack.
Note that oftentimes you do not want EVERY button to react that way. There are two ways around that.
1- Trap "mouseUp" in the offending button.2- Set a property of some sort in those buttons, such that (pseudo):
on mouseUp
if the name of the target has some nice property thenset the bordercolor of the Target to "orange"...
Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: General 2018 via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: General 2018 <General.2018 at outlook.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 5, 2019 12:57 pm
Subject: Button scripts

Hi ,

Have many buttons that do different operations , each one has the following script :-

Is the script required for each button and is the use of flush correct ?

on mouseUp
set the bordercolor of me to orange
set showBorder of me to true
--- do something
get flushEvents("mouseUp")
end mouseUp



on mouseleave
set showBorder of me to false
get flushEvents("mouseleave")
end mouseleave


Regards
Camm
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org  Sat Oct  5 13:31:27 2019
From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 10:31:27 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <f4f5e72e-69d0-dd8c-d184-e0e1f828be13@pair.com>
References: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <f4f5e72e-69d0-dd8c-d184-e0e1f828be13@pair.com>
Message-ID: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>

Folks,
The donations to fix specific bugs is a notable idea. But what comes to mind is where the programming effort to fix the funded bug will come from. Presumably, you are thinking it will come from mothership staff programmers. I don?t know, but suspect the staff programmers are already busily working on tasks supporting existing efforts. Suppose bugfix A, funded by donations, takes 40hrs to fix. This 40 hrs will take 40 hrs from somewhere else.

So, my basic question is: can the time management strategies of the mothership accommodate these special bugfix jobs? Also, if staff already allot significant time to bugfix efforts, perhaps community votes for highest priority bugs would be effective. On the other hand, if a high priority bugfix can be funded by a client with a special need and the capability of funding it fully (I think that already happens), that?s also to the good.

I guess what I?m saying is that, if you want the mothership to do the fixing, they should be giving input on what might also work for them. Alternatively, maybe there are programmers in the LC community who have the skills to tackle some of the bugs and will, if they are supported financially. In that vein, perhaps a system of bidding for bug fixes on the ?auction block? could be developed. Payment would be made after  tests confirmed the solution, and it could be incorporated into future LC versions.

Those are just some thoughts, maybe useful, maybe not.

Best to all,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Oct 5, 2019, at 9:56 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have a very humble proposal to move things forward in more positive manner, and entirely eliminate ALL negativity.
> 




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Sat Oct  5 15:27:25 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 22:27:25 +0300
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
References: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <f4f5e72e-69d0-dd8c-d184-e0e1f828be13@pair.com>
 <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
Message-ID: <247839d0-9e9b-239b-a351-ba6a62473703@gmail.com>

Well, well, well . . . out of the smoke a phoenix arises . . .

I am in contact "with those who know what they are doing" with a mind to
try to set up an "adopt a bug" scheme. But the real b*gger is how on 
earth to
do some sort of triage on outstanding bugs and find out which ones:

1. Are sortable-outable.

and of those:

2. Which ones actually justify time, money and effort.

Once that has been done (not simple at all), I'm in favour of running
an Indiegogo or similar fund-raiser to get funds to sort out bugs,
with support badges rather like the one for the Fund-Raiser.

I think it is an important idea to have either individual sponsors or
groups of them to support specific bugs so that there will not be
any complaints about promises not being honoured.

Your questions are painful and pertinent.

Possibly, just possibly, LiveCode could offer internships to students from
universities in Edinburgh and round about: but whether those students would
have the depth of understanding of how LiveCode's underpinnings work to
do any good is another problem.

The idea of an "auction block" could work in 2 ways:

1. Donors would bid to support fixing a specific bug.

2. Would-be bug fixers would bid for the job of fixing the bug.

Just as long as the whole thing doesn't end up like a slave market in 
Jamaica.

On 5.10.19 20:31, prothero--- via use-livecode wrote:
> Folks,
> The donations to fix specific bugs is a notable idea. But what comes to mind is where the programming effort to fix the funded bug will come from. Presumably, you are thinking it will come from mothership staff programmers. I don?t know, but suspect the staff programmers are already busily working on tasks supporting existing efforts. Suppose bugfix A, funded by donations, takes 40hrs to fix. This 40 hrs will take 40 hrs from somewhere else.
>
> So, my basic question is: can the time management strategies of the mothership accommodate these special bugfix jobs? Also, if staff already allot significant time to bugfix efforts, perhaps community votes for highest priority bugs would be effective. On the other hand, if a high priority bugfix can be funded by a client with a special need and the capability of funding it fully (I think that already happens), that?s also to the good.
>
> I guess what I?m saying is that, if you want the mothership to do the fixing, they should be giving input on what might also work for them. Alternatively, maybe there are programmers in the LC community who have the skills to tackle some of the bugs and will, if they are supported financially. In that vein, perhaps a system of bidding for bug fixes on the ?auction block? could be developed. Payment would be made after  tests confirmed the solution, and it could be incorporated into future LC versions.
>
> Those are just some thoughts, maybe useful, maybe not.
>
> Best to all,
> Bill
>
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
>
>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 9:56 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have a very humble proposal to move things forward in more positive manner, and entirely eliminate ALL negativity.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jjs at krutt.org  Sat Oct  5 16:17:13 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 22:17:13 +0200
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <247839d0-9e9b-239b-a351-ba6a62473703@gmail.com>
References: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <f4f5e72e-69d0-dd8c-d184-e0e1f828be13@pair.com>
 <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <247839d0-9e9b-239b-a351-ba6a62473703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6579f1c-82c4-2451-05bc-66d07a1c4eba@krutt.org>

I find this whole idea rather strange, although i understand where it is 
coming from.

But, for example when i buy a car and it has bugs (in the warranty 
period) it gets fixed for free.

Even if the car is out of warranty then some are called back to fix a 
safety item, also for free.

If it is out of warranty, you have to pay.(like you don't pay anymore 
for LC subscription)

You can also compare your LC subscription with a (company/private) lease 
car.

As long as you pay then everything gets fixed, even new tires and 
maintenance.

For things to be fixed more quickly in the Community version or new 
wanted features i can imagine to have it fixed more quickly by funding it.

So maybe i can sell my software and if it has bugs, well..you have to 
pay more to get it fixed.

I really doubt if you can find people (except for some LC hardliners) 
who will pay to solve bugs.

People pay for? products, not bugs.


Op 5-10-2019 om 21:27 schreef Richmond via use-livecode:
> Well, well, well . . . out of the smoke a phoenix arises . . .
>
> I am in contact "with those who know what they are doing" with a mind to
> try to set up an "adopt a bug" scheme. But the real b*gger is how on 
> earth to
> do some sort of triage on outstanding bugs and find out which ones:
>
> 1. Are sortable-outable.
>
> and of those:
>
> 2. Which ones actually justify time, money and effort.
>
> Once that has been done (not simple at all), I'm in favour of running
> an Indiegogo or similar fund-raiser to get funds to sort out bugs,
> with support badges rather like the one for the Fund-Raiser.
>
> I think it is an important idea to have either individual sponsors or
> groups of them to support specific bugs so that there will not be
> any complaints about promises not being honoured.
>
> Your questions are painful and pertinent.
>
> Possibly, just possibly, LiveCode could offer internships to students 
> from
> universities in Edinburgh and round about: but whether those students 
> would
> have the depth of understanding of how LiveCode's underpinnings work to
> do any good is another problem.
>
> The idea of an "auction block" could work in 2 ways:
>
> 1. Donors would bid to support fixing a specific bug.
>
> 2. Would-be bug fixers would bid for the job of fixing the bug.
>
> Just as long as the whole thing doesn't end up like a slave market in 
> Jamaica.
>
> On 5.10.19 20:31, prothero--- via use-livecode wrote:
>> Folks,
>> The donations to fix specific bugs is a notable idea. But what comes 
>> to mind is where the programming effort to fix the funded bug will 
>> come from. Presumably, you are thinking it will come from mothership 
>> staff programmers. I don?t know, but suspect the staff programmers 
>> are already busily working on tasks supporting existing efforts. 
>> Suppose bugfix A, funded by donations, takes 40hrs to fix. This 40 
>> hrs will take 40 hrs from somewhere else.
>>
>> So, my basic question is: can the time management strategies of the 
>> mothership accommodate these special bugfix jobs? Also, if staff 
>> already allot significant time to bugfix efforts, perhaps community 
>> votes for highest priority bugs would be effective. On the other 
>> hand, if a high priority bugfix can be funded by a client with a 
>> special need and the capability of funding it fully (I think that 
>> already happens), that?s also to the good.
>>
>> I guess what I?m saying is that, if you want the mothership to do the 
>> fixing, they should be giving input on what might also work for them. 
>> Alternatively, maybe there are programmers in the LC community who 
>> have the skills to tackle some of the bugs and will, if they are 
>> supported financially. In that vein, perhaps a system of bidding for 
>> bug fixes on the ?auction block? could be developed. Payment would be 
>> made after? tests confirmed the solution, and it could be 
>> incorporated into future LC versions.
>>
>> Those are just some thoughts, maybe useful, maybe not.
>>
>> Best to all,
>> Bill
>>
>> William Prothero
>> http://es.earthednet.org
>>
>>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 9:56 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a very humble proposal to move things forward in more 
>>> positive manner, and entirely eliminate ALL negativity.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sat Oct  5 18:36:26 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2019 18:36:26 -0400
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
Message-ID: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>

As I discussed in the Community keynote at the conference in May, I've 
been tracking LC's presence on the TIOBE Index for the last two years.

Each month TIOBE ranks the world's most popular programming languages by 
evident use. Only the first 50 are listed with specific rankings, while 
the bottom 50 are listed in one grouping because, while those are more 
popular than the other hundreds of languages not on the list at all, 
their usage share difference is seen as too small to rank individually.

In 2018 LC broke new ground by appearing on the TIOBE Index a solid 
majority of months, and for 2019-to-date LC has been on the list every 
month.  It's been rewarding to see the good, steady progress, even if 
only in the lower 50.

But this month LC broke new ground:

For the first time since I've been tracking TIOBE, LC IS NOW IN THE 
UPPER 50, ranked as the 49th most popular language:

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

This reflects very well on the core LC team for producing such a capable 
toolkit, and on you, the members of this community, for using LC to make 
great software, and spreading the word on how you did it.

Kudos all around!

--
   Richard Gaskin
   LiveCode Community Liaision



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sat Oct  5 18:59:36 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 15:59:36 -0700
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>

On 10/5/19 3:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> But this month LC broke new ground:
> 
> For the first time since I've been tracking TIOBE, LC IS NOW IN THE 
> UPPER 50, ranked as the 49th most popular language:
> 
> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

Great news!, I think... note that the TIOBE rating is based on lines of 
code written, not popularity.

I'm not fond of metrics based on lines of code written. Since LiveCode 
packs so much power into a single statement vs the number of line of 
code it takes to do the same job in most other languages, I'd think that 
we're actually much higher in the standings than a simple quantitative 
statistic would indicate.

What did we knock out of place to get there? I see we're only 0.001% 
above Crystal, whatever that is.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sat Oct  5 19:10:02 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 16:10:02 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <247839d0-9e9b-239b-a351-ba6a62473703@gmail.com>
References: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <f4f5e72e-69d0-dd8c-d184-e0e1f828be13@pair.com>
 <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <247839d0-9e9b-239b-a351-ba6a62473703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1a704344-7137-ddee-1836-106cab27e8b3@sonic.net>

On 10/5/19 12:27 PM, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
> Well, well, well . . . out of the smoke a phoenix arises . . .
> 
> I am in contact "with those who know what they are doing" with a mind to
> try to set up an "adopt a bug" scheme. But the real b*gger is how on 
> earth to
> do some sort of triage on outstanding bugs and find out which ones:
> 
> 1. Are sortable-outable.
> 
> and of those:
> 
> 2. Which ones actually justify time, money and effort.

It may be even more complicated than that, and I would think very deeply 
about this before jumping in.

Kickstarter facilitates raising money for a given project, but they're 
very upfront about the fact that any given project may or may not 
materialize - you're funding the effort, not the finished product. 
Nonetheless, people get upset when they've funded a project that doesn't 
reach completion, or even ones that take much longer than originally 
expected. Happily most of the efforts I've helped fund on Kickstarter 
have reached conclusions (the Deathstar never got completely funded).

With Indiegogo you're taking that paradigm even one step farther, 
because people will be paying to have bugs fixed whether or not they 
actually end up getting fixed. And part of that depends on raising the 
goal you're going to set for fixing a certain bug. So let's say you end 
up raising 75% of your goal for bug x. On Kickstarter nobody would be 
charged because you haven't met your goal. On Indiegogo everybody who 
paid to get the bug fixed would be charged what they pledged, but now 
you're left with not enough money to fund getting the bug fixed. And 
you've got everyone upset that you've taken their money and still not 
fixed that bug.

So what's the way out? *YOU* put up the money to get the bug fixed, then 
set up an Indiegogo page to get paid back. Not a pretty sight.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From curry at pair.com  Sat Oct  5 19:19:45 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:19:45 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
References: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
Message-ID: <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>


William:

 > where the programming effort to fix the funded bug will come from.

That's a very good que... - er, a good example of a reactionary and 
blasphemous anti-bug question. I luvv buggs and perish the thought of 
losing even a single precious one.

Actually we don't need to presume too much; the Mothership almost 
certainly has some bug plans already in the works for the near future. 
I'd bet on that.

But since my daily work often involves LC bugs, they are never 
outta-sight, outta-mind. And there are more than a few. A good healthy 
population indeed. It's not invisible. I'm knee-deep among the 
(wonderful, blessed, amazing) bugs almost every single day in my job. 
Can't help noticing when they pile up - and they have. Objectively, we 
have to admit that the bugs are just as big a part of "what's happening" 
here as any other news.

So here are a few other questions to ponder, and none of these are aimed 
at you William; those are very good thoughts and I'm just adding a few 
more as food for thought. I also think Richmond's bug-funding plans are 
great. And other efforts.

1. Where do bugs actually come from? Do they spontaneously come into 
existence, or do they originate from causes and events? ...

2. And therefore, if there isn't time to FIX them, then how is there 
time to CREATE them in the first place?

Where does THAT time come from? Because yes, bugs are created, so often 
people don't realize that, and it takes actual time and effort to create 
bugs. Even though they may be very unconscious actions or omissions, yet 
they were ultimately the product/result of intentional actions and 
habits. Thus any techniques to reduce their creation in the first place 
would be ... of course, would be a holocaust against bugs and something 
I abhor as a dedicated bug-lover. But any profession including coding 
can be done by two people for the same cost, yet have different results. 
People can learn to improve habits and approaches.

3. Are there any other prerequisites to fixing bugs besides $$$ and 
coders? Well, you sorta have to know they exist before you can fix them. 
They have to be discovered, reciped, reported. Ironically some people 
consider bug talk "negative" - especially if they don't stop to consider 
what leads to the bug-fixing process. Someone has to notice it, or test 
thoroughly and discover it, pin down, recipe, report. And usually that 
simply doesn't happen by, well, keeping one's mind completely off bugs 
and focusing entirely on the non-bug stuff. Quite the reverse!

4. Are there legitimate reasons for customers being sorta busy too, and 
having their own financial responsibilities? In other words, should we 
all devote ourselves largely to volunteer bugfixing, or to volunteer 
recruiting for paid bugfixing? Working around bugs certainly can keep a 
body busy. And (ever since LC 7) so can reporting bugs - LC 7 bugs are 
still being reported, by the way. Too many bugs also reduce customer 
efficiency. Oh yes, and then there's the original work itself, the thing 
one was doing before confronting the bugs. I mention this because some 
people who previously repeated the mantra "if you see it, report it" are 
starting to say "do you want to just gripe, or actually do something 
about it yourself!"

It's convincing, with "positive" spin - and I like the focus on 
accomplishment. But unfortunately the mantra also comes at the expense 
of some truth, implying that complainers may be lazy and motivated by 
negativity while they twiddle thumbs and gripe rather than act. I supect 
that many "complainers" - or in more unbiased and less negative terms, 
"attention raisers" - are busy with a full plate and speak up while 
taking a breather, about the relevant matters they've been dealing with 
in LC, before diving right back in.

5. Finally, perhaps most importantly, is it simply unthinkable for the 
creator of a subscription-style annual fee product to actually fix the 
bugs of that product all by themselves? Should a subscribing customer be 
able to have reasonable expectations of bug fixes, or is that completely 
on the shoulders of the paying customer to pay for or perhaps DIY?

IMPORTANT NOTE - I'm not saying that this applies to LC themselves. 
They've always fixed many bugs; they've more than proven their 
responsible and dedicated habit of doing so, and no doubt that will 
continue as usual. In fact, they just said as much, the way I read it. 
I'm very confident of that, perhaps more so than anyone else here.

No, I'm asking this customer vs bug fix question to respond to these 
community memes - there is currently a push by some to shift bug 
responsibility to the customer, with very assertive arguments. The 
effort to solve problems actively is useful, but the accompanying mantra 
overlooks that not everyone at all times has free time, energy, and 
money for such efforts.

A customer is actually doing a company a service by bringing attention 
to a problem; an information asset. Customers need to understand that 
features and fixes can take time, and releases can take time. But if the 
"positivity" school of thought gets out of hand and discourages true 
feedback, the result may be damage due to reduced awareness. Plus the 
positivity mantra seems to be ironically characterized by labeling 
everything and everyone else negative. Which is it again? :D

My concern for LC bugs is a reduction in "net" bugs over time and in any 
given "final" version, especially some care during new product and 
feature sprints, because without limiting the rate of introducing bugs, 
it may be even more difficult to tackle them, even with extra efforts. 
They can't sustainably be introduced faster than they can be fixed.

Also, standalones for end-users are built with a particular LC version. 
Too often a new final version (compared to the previous final version) 
fixes one or two problems relevant to a project while adding one or two 
more, also relevant. Despite the multiple meanings of stable which we 
know, there still is a need for getting closer to final version = pretty 
reliable, with few bugs.

Those are the more serious questions behind my light-hearted bug-hugging 
post.

 > In that vein, perhaps a system of bidding for bug fixes on
 > the ?auction block? could be developed.

That would be a smart addition. I do think that paying for bug fixes for 
a SUBSCRIPTION product should be an addition, and not a substitute for 
company bug fixes - and I'm not implying that LC Ltd is moving away from 
that. Just responding to some community memes.

As usual I didn't really have the time to comment here again, and going 
in depth like this might even tempt a certain person famous for lengthy 
posts (see the archives) to accuse me of a lengthy post. :D But I felt 
that the memes and assumptions needed some balancing out. Ideas are 
important! Some things are worth speaking up about.

This represents a break from work that includes doing precisely one of 
the tasks necessary to help this bug problem - I've been finding and 
reporting a big bodacious boatload of beautiful bouncing beastly bugs. 
God bless 'em. All kinds of bugs. Plenty left, if you need some. ;) It's 
interesting and fun work, I actually enjoy pinning down bugs, but when I 
find too many for too long, I worry a bit.

I'm outta here again, back to coding and bug reporting! Take care. Nice 
seeing everyone. And don't forget to hug a bug today, or else....

JJS:

 > As long as you pay then everything gets fixed,
 > even new tires and maintenance..

Yep! Very true point.

More often than you would suppose, a fix is worth extra payment, 
especially for a much-needed quick fix or extra feature that enables a 
product release.

BUT those are special cases. A punctual annual subscription model very 
strongly implies some level of included maintenance. Once again, I'm 
100% sure that LC believes in this principle too, no slur on them; just 
generally discussing a topic that's already being discussed.

Meanwhile, from a variety of comments lately it's clear that people are 
noticing the bugs. Hang in there people! Good things are coming....

Best wishes,

Curry K.



From sundown at pacifier.com  Sat Oct  5 19:57:44 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 16:57:44 -0700
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>

Hi Mark,
I just visited the link Richard provided and it shows the following;

It is important to note that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming language or the language in which most lines of code have been written.

The index can be used to check whether your programming skills are still up to date or to make a strategic decision about what programming language should be adopted when starting to build a new software system. The definition of the TIOBE index can be found here <https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/>.

Basically the calculation comes down to counting hits for the search query.

JB


> On Oct 5, 2019, at 3:59 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10/5/19 3:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> 
>> But this month LC broke new ground:
>> For the first time since I've been tracking TIOBE, LC IS NOW IN THE UPPER 50, ranked as the 49th most popular language:
>> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
> 
> Great news!, I think... note that the TIOBE rating is based on lines of code written, not popularity.
> 
> I'm not fond of metrics based on lines of code written. Since LiveCode packs so much power into a single statement vs the number of line of code it takes to do the same job in most other languages, I'd think that we're actually much higher in the standings than a simple quantitative statistic would indicate.
> 
> What did we knock out of place to get there? I see we're only 0.001% above Crystal, whatever that is.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sat Oct  5 21:01:22 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 18:01:22 -0700
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>

On 10/5/19 4:57 PM, JB via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> I just visited the link Richard provided and it shows the following;

Hah! I missed a very important word in that sentence.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sat Oct  5 22:33:09 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:33:09 -0700
Subject: ...and a challenge
In-Reply-To: <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
 <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <22fee344-989b-c0cc-e42e-d081193cc846@sonic.net>

On 10/5/19 6:01 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> On 10/5/19 4:57 PM, JB via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>> I just visited the link Richard provided and it shows the following;
> 
> Hah! I missed a very important word in that sentence.
> 

Nonetheless, here's pi in nine lines of javascript. I haven't tried 
converting this yet... anyone wanna try writing this in LiveCode? And 
benchmarking it?

<http://ajennings.net/blog/a-million-digits-of-pi-in-9-lines-of-javascript.html>

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From sundown at pacifier.com  Sat Oct  5 23:02:55 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 20:02:55 -0700
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
 <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <5A06ADA2-894A-4AD5-9020-9E802BC9045B@pacifier.com>

Well you know searches could be based on many different
factors.  If a programming language does things in such a
way it needs a lot of different examples to really explain it
all and LiveCode allows the user to do it easier then the
search results would not be a good judge of how easy it
is to learn and program in that language.

And I am sure there are many other examples.

JB

> On Oct 5, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10/5/19 4:57 PM, JB via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>> I just visited the link Richard provided and it shows the following;
> 
> Hah! I missed a very important word in that sentence.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From colinholgate at gmail.com  Sat Oct  5 23:34:18 2019
From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 21:34:18 -0600
Subject: ...and a challenge
In-Reply-To: <22fee344-989b-c0cc-e42e-d081193cc846@sonic.net>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
 <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
 <22fee344-989b-c0cc-e42e-d081193cc846@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <03418B6F-8396-41CB-AD0E-B9CA14792354@gmail.com>


Pi is a reserved work, so I used pie. I haven?t seen this way of producing Pi before, and in both JavaScript and LivceCode it seems to be instantaneous. I think it?s a rewording of 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9?)

Anyway, see for yourself

on mouseup

put the ticks into t

put 1.0 into i

put 3.0 * 10^200 into x

put x into pie

repeat while (x > 0)

put x * i / ((i + 1.0) * 4.0) into x

add x / (i + 2.0) to pie

add 2.0 to i

end repeat

set numberformat to "x.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"

answer the ticks - t

answer (pie / (10.0 ^ 200))

end mouseup


BTW, I haven?t seen JavaScript using ?let? before, or having ?n? to indicate a floating point number. That could be a dot net thing.


> On Oct 5, 2019, at 8:33 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10/5/19 6:01 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
>> On 10/5/19 4:57 PM, JB via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Hi Mark,
>>> I just visited the link Richard provided and it shows the following;
>> Hah! I missed a very important word in that sentence.
> 
> Nonetheless, here's pi in nine lines of javascript. I haven't tried converting this yet... anyone wanna try writing this in LiveCode? And benchmarking it?
> 
> <http://ajennings.net/blog/a-million-digits-of-pi-in-9-lines-of-javascript.html>



From jerry at jhjensen.com  Sat Oct  5 23:57:16 2019
From: jerry at jhjensen.com (Jerry Jensen)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 20:57:16 -0700
Subject: ...and a challenge
In-Reply-To: <03418B6F-8396-41CB-AD0E-B9CA14792354@gmail.com>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
 <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
 <22fee344-989b-c0cc-e42e-d081193cc846@sonic.net>
 <03418B6F-8396-41CB-AD0E-B9CA14792354@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D265E199-8477-4276-A8C0-9898362E5124@jhjensen.com>

Does it give the correct answer for pie? I don?t think the n suffix is for floating point. I thought it was for expressing bigint type.

> On Oct 5, 2019, at 8:34 PM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Pi is a reserved work, so I used pie. I haven?t seen this way of producing Pi before, and in both JavaScript and LivceCode it seems to be instantaneous. I think it?s a rewording of 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9?)
> 
> Anyway, see for yourself
> 
> on mouseup
> 
> put the ticks into t
> 
> put 1.0 into i
> 
> put 3.0 * 10^200 into x
> 
> put x into pie
> 
> repeat while (x > 0)
> 
> put x * i / ((i + 1.0) * 4.0) into x
> 
> add x / (i + 2.0) to pie
> 
> add 2.0 to i
> 
> end repeat
> 
> set numberformat to "x.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"
> 
> answer the ticks - t
> 
> answer (pie / (10.0 ^ 200))
> 
> end mouseup
> 
> 
> BTW, I haven?t seen JavaScript using ?let? before, or having ?n? to indicate a floating point number. That could be a dot net thing.
> 
> 
>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 8:33 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 10/5/19 6:01 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
>>> On 10/5/19 4:57 PM, JB via use-livecode wrote:
>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>> I just visited the link Richard provided and it shows the following;
>>> Hah! I missed a very important word in that sentence.
>> 
>> Nonetheless, here's pi in nine lines of javascript. I haven't tried converting this yet... anyone wanna try writing this in LiveCode? And benchmarking it?
>> 
>> <http://ajennings.net/blog/a-million-digits-of-pi-in-9-lines-of-javascript.html>





From peterwawood at gmail.com  Sun Oct  6 00:09:20 2019
From: peterwawood at gmail.com (Peter W A Wood)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 12:09:20 +0800
Subject: ...and a challenge
In-Reply-To: <03418B6F-8396-41CB-AD0E-B9CA14792354@gmail.com>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
 <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
 <22fee344-989b-c0cc-e42e-d081193cc846@sonic.net>
 <03418B6F-8396-41CB-AD0E-B9CA14792354@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A30BA816-5393-456C-8096-0DB0EA6ACFD2@gmail.com>

Colin

> On 6 Oct 2019, at 11:34, Colin Holgate via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Pi is a reserved work, so I used pie. I haven?t seen this way of producing Pi before, and in both JavaScript and LivceCode it seems to be instantaneous. I think it?s a rewording of 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9?)

?

> set numberformat to ?x.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"
> 
Your solution seems to be missing a few hundred thousand digits ;-) The JavaScript solution prints the first 1,000,000 digits of Pi.

Actually, the article says that the script only can produce 1,000,000 digits when run in a Chrome console. It will only print the first 315,633 digits in Firefox. (I haven?t tried that to confirm it.)

...


> BTW, I haven?t seen JavaScript using ?let? before, or having ?n? to indicate a floating point number. That could be a dot net thing.

?Let? was introduced into JavaScript some time ago. It provides block-level scope. This console session may demonstrate the difference:
>>> j = 0;
0
>>> for (var j = 0; j < 10; j++) {};
>>> print(j);
10

>>> k = 0;
0
>>> for (let k = 0; k < 10; k++) {};
>>> print(k);
0

Big Integer support was recently introduced into JavaScript. The ?n? suffix denotes a Big Integer, ?primitive? numbers are always floats in JavaScript.

Regards

Peter

From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au  Sun Oct  6 00:11:26 2019
From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 04:11:26 +0000
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
References: <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <FC60D2C7-7CD5-427E-ABF5-02EB36CE7250@unimelb.edu.au>

Given that the rankings are based on search query frequencies and that Google searches seem to be the biggest contributor to the data they use I wonder why they don?t just do a series of Google Trends searches to come up with the relative rankings?

Terry...

Sent from my iPad

> On 6 Oct 2019, at 11:01 am, JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Hi Mark,
> I just visited the link Richard provided and it shows the following;
> 
> It is important to note that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming language or the language in which most lines of code have been written.
> 
> The index can be used to check whether your programming skills are still up to date or to make a strategic decision about what programming language should be adopted when starting to build a new software system. The definition of the TIOBE index can be found here <https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/>.
> 
> Basically the calculation comes down to counting hits for the search query.
> 
> JB
> 
> 
>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 3:59 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 10/5/19 3:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>>> 
>>> But this month LC broke new ground:
>>> For the first time since I've been tracking TIOBE, LC IS NOW IN THE UPPER 50, ranked as the 49th most popular language:
>>> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
>> 
>> Great news!, I think... note that the TIOBE rating is based on lines of code written, not popularity.
>> 
>> I'm not fond of metrics based on lines of code written. Since LiveCode packs so much power into a single statement vs the number of line of code it takes to do the same job in most other languages, I'd think that we're actually much higher in the standings than a simple quantitative statistic would indicate.
>> 
>> What did we knock out of place to get there? I see we're only 0.001% above Crystal, whatever that is.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Mark Wieder
>> ahsoftware at gmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 

From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Sun Oct  6 01:30:49 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:30:49 -0500
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <FC60D2C7-7CD5-427E-ABF5-02EB36CE7250@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
 <FC60D2C7-7CD5-427E-ABF5-02EB36CE7250@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <16d9f8c8328.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

On Oct 5, 2019, at 3:59 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:


> What did we knock out of place to get there?


Maybe it's all those new FM people searching for LC information. From what 
I saw, they are enthusiastic and word gets around.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com








From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sun Oct  6 01:43:34 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 22:43:34 -0700
Subject: ...and a challenge
In-Reply-To: <03418B6F-8396-41CB-AD0E-B9CA14792354@gmail.com>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
 <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
 <22fee344-989b-c0cc-e42e-d081193cc846@sonic.net>
 <03418B6F-8396-41CB-AD0E-B9CA14792354@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22be6c60-0342-cf73-b9bb-281f5de0676e@sonic.net>

On 10/5/19 8:34 PM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:
> 
> Pi is a reserved work, so I used pie. I haven?t seen this way of producing Pi before, and in both JavaScript and LivceCode it seems to be instantaneous. I think it?s a rewording of 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9?)

the Taylor algorithm is similar but different.

> 
> Anyway, see for yourself

...the javascript implementation is *very* fast, and one reason is the 
BigInt support. You're not going to be able to do this in LC without 
resorting to string chunks.

> BTW, I haven?t seen JavaScript using ?let? before, or having ?n? to indicate a floating point number. That could be a dot net thing.

See Peter Wood's response.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Sun Oct  6 02:37:13 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:37:13 +0300
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <85725ace-b5bd-f6db-7273-721b999916d2@gmail.com>



On 6.10.19 1:59, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> On 10/5/19 3:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> But this month LC broke new ground:
>>
>> For the first time since I've been tracking TIOBE, LC IS NOW IN THE 
>> UPPER 50, ranked as the 49th most popular language:
>>
>> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
>
> Great news!, I think... note that the TIOBE rating is based on lines 
> of code written, not popularity.

Lines of code written where?

Lines of code written in what context?

Are the TIOBE people able to stick their virtual noses into every 
computer on the planet
and see who is doing what with what programming language?

This all seems a bit specious.

Frankly I'd be far, far more interested to know in what contexts 
different programming languages are used.

Over here, in Bulgaria, something like 90% of IT companies are hooked on 
C++, and the rest on C#,
while high schools seem to be split between C++/# and Visual BASIC. But 
Bulgaria is an "ever so slightly
retro" country that is very small indeed, so, statistically probably has 
very little bearing on the global
situation.
>
> I'm not fond of metrics based on lines of code written. Since LiveCode 
> packs so much power into a single statement vs the number of line of 
> code it takes to do the same job in most other languages, I'd think 
> that we're actually much higher in the standings than a simple 
> quantitative statistic would indicate.

Indeed.

And quantative is not necessarily qualitative.
>
> What did we knock out of place to get there? I see we're only 0.001% 
> above Crystal, whatever that is.
? Meth ?

The fact that LiveCode is at position 49 is, nevertheless, good, as it 
might attract the attention
of the sort of people who make decisions of what sort of programming 
language to use on
its popularity: and while that might seem a bit naff, every little 
advance helps.




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Sun Oct  6 02:49:45 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:49:45 +0300
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>
References: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>
Message-ID: <6606c386-1c95-b31e-ee8a-70ef124f847c@gmail.com>



On 6.10.19 2:19, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:
>
> <snip>
> Because yes, bugs are created
<snip>

Indeed they are:

this is all something to do with the law of unintended consequences,
the double-effect argument and so on.

I certainly DON'T believe in people at LiveCode central deliberately 
creating bugs.

Consider for a moment how complicated a beast LiveCode is, and realise how
inter-connected so much of it is . . .

. . . I suffer from chronic back-pain, and I could have an operation to 
sort it out,
even supposing I escape the 40% chance of ending up in a wheel-chair, 
there will be
all sorts of side-effects . . . in fact my favourite orthopaedic surgeon 
(who is taller than
me and also suffers from chronic back-pain) spent a "pleasant" couple of 
hours totting
up the negative consequences of getting rid of the excruciating pain 
that hits us both
once every one to two months and deciding it just wasn't worth it.

There is even the distinct possibility that sorting out certain 
particularly pernicious
bugs in LiveCode could give rise to more bugs.



From mkoob at rogers.com  Sun Oct  6 10:20:38 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:20:38 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <5893FD8A-32E7-4F0F-BEB8-ED23CC8EB3AF@me.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <5893FD8A-32E7-4F0F-BEB8-ED23CC8EB3AF@me.com>
Message-ID: <D5817356-193D-42AF-BA87-1ACF4C5C2863@rogers.com>

Thanks Erik for the recommended specs.

Also thanks for the advice re virtual testing.  I have used parallels in the past on an earlier Mac with Windows 7,  I will have to check if my Parallels licence is still good.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 3, 2019, at 2:03 PM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I would advise this hardware:
> 
> - LGA 1152 motherboard (with PCIe ports)
> - Intel i5 processor
> - 8GB RAM or more
> - 256GB SSD or better 256GB M.2 NVMe if supported by your Mac
> 
> OR use VM's (which I am using on a 32GB Mac machine):
> 
> - Expand your current RAM in your Mac to at least 16GB or more if possible
> - Replace all mechanical HDD's with SATA SSD or even better M.2 NVMe SSD (minimum 512GB)
> - Use Parallels Desktop
> 
> Just my 2 cents...
> 
> ?On 03/10/2019, 19:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Martin Koob via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>    Hi
> 
>    I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows. 
> 
>    I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 
> 
>    Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again. 
> 
>    With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered. 
> 
>    Any suggestions? What are people using?
> 
>    Thanks in advance. 
> 
>    Martin Koob
> 
>    Sent from my iPhone
> 
>    _______________________________________________
>    use-livecode mailing list
>    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From mkoob at rogers.com  Sun Oct  6 10:26:25 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:26:25 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <08ae4db7-ab14-0e32-eea3-17986822f68c@krutt.org>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <08ae4db7-ab14-0e32-eea3-17986822f68c@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <C2070BA1-6E85-4384-BED9-5D7190D55E45@rogers.com>

Hi JJS

I have an iMac that has the specs for a dual boot but I am reluctant to do it.   It has a 1 TB fusion drive and when I upgraded from Sierra to Mojave I ended up with a non functioning fusion drive.   I had a nice long chat with the Apple Support tech trying to get it working again, then I was escalated and the engineer had me do a couple of other things and then my Mac was bricked.  He was a bit embarrassed and approved a free repair at my local Mac dealer.   Turns out the upgrade detached the fusion drive?s SSD from its Hard Drive.

It turned out well in the end but I don?t want to go through that again.

Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 3, 2019, at 1:54 PM, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Why don't you create a dual boot of your mac?
> 
> Apple itself supports it and delivers the drivers to do so.
> 
> You only need a win10 license
> 
> 
> Op 3-10-2019 om 19:48 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
>> Hi
>> 
>> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>> 
>> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>> 
>> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again.
>> 
>> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered.
>> 
>> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Martin Koob
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From mkoob at rogers.com  Sun Oct  6 10:30:09 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:30:09 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
Message-ID: <8DA4BE60-CADE-4513-8B55-7235B9D83672@rogers.com>

Hi Curry

Thanks for your take on my question.  I too believe in developing for the lowest possible common denominator.  My MacBook Pro Retina is the 15 inch early 2013 so my theory is if my Mac can handle it in the IDE  then the end users will likely be able to as well as a standalone.  

Thanks for the advice re testing on actual PC hardware. I was trying to apply both principles  when I bought my first budget PC but I set the Bar too low.  It is an Acer Aspire XC ? CPU was an AMD E-Series E1-7010 Dual Core 1.5 G Hz  with 4 GB  RAM. My application uses  the cameraControl and Player and so the foundations of those are so different on PC and Mac so I need to test on hardware.  I was able to do some testing on the Acer and found the Player not working as expected but I am not sure if it is the machine or LC.  But that will be the subject of another post.

Thanks for the suggested specs.   


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 4, 2019, at 4:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended specs for Windows Development computer"
> 
> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)
> 
> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows only" experience:
> 
> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, and similar results.
> 
> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more....
> 
> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
> 
> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
> 
> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and chains.
> 
> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other operating systems.
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From dsc at swcp.com  Sun Oct  6 10:30:54 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 08:30:54 -0600
Subject: ...and a challenge
In-Reply-To: <22be6c60-0342-cf73-b9bb-281f5de0676e@sonic.net>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <ED5EDA0D-8CF9-4B91-8CFD-9FA41C13A353@pacifier.com>
 <c55d249a-4047-3096-f715-a12d9647d648@sonic.net>
 <22fee344-989b-c0cc-e42e-d081193cc846@sonic.net>
 <03418B6F-8396-41CB-AD0E-B9CA14792354@gmail.com>
 <22be6c60-0342-cf73-b9bb-281f5de0676e@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <46D4BA15-A202-4C3A-AB50-689593A44BB4@swcp.com>

It doesn't have to be text strings. It could be data (byte strings). This would be handy for using the base-16 method for computing pi. In my personal "slow math" library, I have tinkered with binary data, float encoded data, and number arrays, usually using a decimal point. Division is hard. I tinkered a bit with interval arithmetic and want to explore that more. That way I can have indefinite precision decimal intervals. Add complex and I will have to change my library to "very slow math".

One problem is readability.

> On Oct 5, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10/5/19 8:34 PM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:
>> Pi is a reserved work, so I used pie. I haven?t seen this way of producing Pi before, and in both JavaScript and LivceCode it seems to be instantaneous. I think it?s a rewording of 4*(1-1/3+1/5-1/7+1/9?)
> 
> the Taylor algorithm is similar but different.
> 
>> Anyway, see for yourself
> 
> ...the javascript implementation is *very* fast, and one reason is the BigInt support. You're not going to be able to do this in LC without resorting to string chunks.
> 
>> BTW, I haven?t seen JavaScript using ?let? before, or having ?n? to indicate a floating point number. That could be a dot net thing.
> 
> See Peter Wood's response.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 




From mkoob at rogers.com  Sun Oct  6 10:31:47 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:31:47 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <8DA4BE60-CADE-4513-8B55-7235B9D83672@rogers.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <8DA4BE60-CADE-4513-8B55-7235B9D83672@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <88F0C172-DC59-4008-A205-21171D35026A@rogers.com>

Thanks everyone for your advice on this topic.   As a user new to Windows all of the discussion is helpful.  This has been a very interesting thread.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 6, 2019, at 10:30 AM, Martin Koob <mkoob at rogers.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Curry
> 
> Thanks for your take on my question.  I too believe in developing for the lowest possible common denominator.  My MacBook Pro Retina is the 15 inch early 2013 so my theory is if my Mac can handle it in the IDE  then the end users will likely be able to as well as a standalone.  
> 
> Thanks for the advice re testing on actual PC hardware. I was trying to apply both principles  when I bought my first budget PC but I set the Bar too low.  It is an Acer Aspire XC ? CPU was an AMD E-Series E1-7010 Dual Core 1.5 G Hz  with 4 GB  RAM. My application uses  the cameraControl and Player and so the foundations of those are so different on PC and Mac so I need to test on hardware.  I was able to do some testing on the Acer and found the Player not working as expected but I am not sure if it is the machine or LC.  But that will be the subject of another post.
> 
> Thanks for the suggested specs.   
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 4:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended specs for Windows Development computer"
>> 
>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)
>> 
>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows only" experience:
>> 
>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, and similar results.
>> 
>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more....
>> 
>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>> 
>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>> 
>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and chains.
>> 
>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other operating systems.
>> 
>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Curry Kenworthy
>> 
>> Custom Software Development
>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/ <http://livecodeconsulting.com/>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 



From jjs at krutt.org  Sun Oct  6 02:51:36 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 08:51:36 +0200
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <85725ace-b5bd-f6db-7273-721b999916d2@gmail.com>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <85725ace-b5bd-f6db-7273-721b999916d2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E2C9AE-C115-44D7-93BE-54F9D5AB6911@krutt.org>

Well in terms of jobs here in NL, most asked is Java, PHP, JavaScript,C++,SQL and a few others. The rest almost never.

Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 6 oktober 2019 08:37:13 CEST:
>
>
>On 6.10.19 1:59, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
>> On 10/5/19 3:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>>
>>> But this month LC broke new ground:
>>>
>>> For the first time since I've been tracking TIOBE, LC IS NOW IN THE 
>>> UPPER 50, ranked as the 49th most popular language:
>>>
>>> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
>>
>> Great news!, I think... note that the TIOBE rating is based on lines 
>> of code written, not popularity.
>
>Lines of code written where?
>
>Lines of code written in what context?
>
>Are the TIOBE people able to stick their virtual noses into every 
>computer on the planet
>and see who is doing what with what programming language?
>
>This all seems a bit specious.
>
>Frankly I'd be far, far more interested to know in what contexts 
>different programming languages are used.
>
>Over here, in Bulgaria, something like 90% of IT companies are hooked
>on 
>C++, and the rest on C#,
>while high schools seem to be split between C++/# and Visual BASIC. But
>
>Bulgaria is an "ever so slightly
>retro" country that is very small indeed, so, statistically probably
>has 
>very little bearing on the global
>situation.
>>
>> I'm not fond of metrics based on lines of code written. Since
>LiveCode 
>> packs so much power into a single statement vs the number of line of 
>> code it takes to do the same job in most other languages, I'd think 
>> that we're actually much higher in the standings than a simple 
>> quantitative statistic would indicate.
>
>Indeed.
>
>And quantative is not necessarily qualitative.
>>
>> What did we knock out of place to get there? I see we're only 0.001% 
>> above Crystal, whatever that is.
>? Meth ?
>
>The fact that LiveCode is at position 49 is, nevertheless, good, as it 
>might attract the attention
>of the sort of people who make decisions of what sort of programming 
>language to use on
>its popularity: and while that might seem a bit naff, every little 
>advance helps.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From jjs at krutt.org  Fri Oct  4 13:50:23 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:50:23 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>

How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.

Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 
>
>I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>
>It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>
>The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>
>So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>
>In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>
>And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>old guys.
>
>As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>No searching for switches, routers and cables. 
>
>Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>
>I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>the first year, $800 for subsequent. 
>
>Dar
>Mad Scientist
>
>
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
><use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>specs for Windows Development computer"
>> 
>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>...)
>> 
>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>Windows only" experience:
>> 
>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>antivirus, and similar results.
>> 
>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>more....
>> 
>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>> 
>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>> 
>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
>remove the ball and chains.
>> 
>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,
>which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
>influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
>Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
>habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
>years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
>proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
>realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
>operating systems.
>> 
>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing
>for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
>here! :)
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Curry Kenworthy
>> 
>> Custom Software Development
>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sun Oct  6 11:48:40 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 08:48:40 -0700
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <d13f6fc7-5a77-d14d-f4f8-3d56ab00395c@sonic.net>

On 10/4/19 10:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode wrote:
> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.

It has been ever thus. The IDE itself is bad in this aspect. I try to 
deal with this by determining which will require the most space and work 
backwards from that.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sun Oct  6 11:53:52 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 08:53:52 -0700
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <C2070BA1-6E85-4384-BED9-5D7190D55E45@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <08ae4db7-ab14-0e32-eea3-17986822f68c@krutt.org>
 <C2070BA1-6E85-4384-BED9-5D7190D55E45@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <8c4e0057-43b2-9cd4-996a-9a0a45b73fdb@sonic.net>

On 10/6/19 7:26 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote:

Turns out the upgrade detached the fusion drive?s SSD from its Hard Drive.

Ouch! I didn't even realize that was possible.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Sun Oct  6 11:54:30 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:54:30 +0300
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <d13f6fc7-5a77-d14d-f4f8-3d56ab00395c@sonic.net>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
 <d13f6fc7-5a77-d14d-f4f8-3d56ab00395c@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <b373fe48-4cee-71d5-651d-2ffa71d0f9d3@gmail.com>

I don't "cope"; I make sure that all my buttons are NOT buttons at all:

I set up a button the way I want it on whatever OS I happen to be using 
at that moment
and import a snapshot of the thing, then delete the button and use the 
image:
this guarantees buttons look the same wherever they are.

Text fields . . . ouch . . . big problem there.

On 6.10.19 18:48, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> On 10/4/19 10:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode wrote:
>> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs 
>> having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows 
>> even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And 
>> i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.
>
> It has been ever thus. The IDE itself is bad in this aspect. I try to 
> deal with this by determining which will require the most space and 
> work backwards from that.
>




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Sun Oct  6 11:57:04 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:57:04 +0300
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <d13f6fc7-5a77-d14d-f4f8-3d56ab00395c@sonic.net>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
 <d13f6fc7-5a77-d14d-f4f8-3d56ab00395c@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <9e411c03-9726-e322-6597-043c062db23f@gmail.com>

"The IDE itself is bad in this aspect."

Well, yes, down in the undergrowth, in "Find" and so on there are odd labels
that overflow their borders. But not in a major way.

This is more a case of the interface designers forgetting that fonts 
"wax and wane"
cross-platform and that they need to make stretchy label fields.

On 6.10.19 18:48, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> On 10/4/19 10:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode wrote:
>> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs 
>> having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows 
>> even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And 
>> i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.
>
> It has been ever thus. The IDE itself is bad in this aspect. I try to 
> deal with this by determining which will require the most space and 
> work backwards from that.
>




From mkoob at rogers.com  Sun Oct  6 12:21:11 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 12:21:11 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>

Hi

I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows 10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?  Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go with Windows 10 Home?

Thanks.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
> 
> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
> 
> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB feels luxurious.
> 
> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and tomorrow.



From colinholgate at gmail.com  Sun Oct  6 12:26:16 2019
From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:26:16 -0600
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
 <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <87217B21-6D06-4E83-83BE-F37CADDC233F@gmail.com>

I originally bought Home, but at some point needed to do some RDP testing, which is a Pro feature. I think that currently my Parallels VM of Windows 10 doesn?t know it?s Pro, I need to track down the registration codes.

Anyway, RDP aside, I didn?t yet need Pro features, and was testing with the Home version.

One of my needs is to support OpenGL 3.1, I haven?t tried VirtualBox to see if it handles that or not, so for now I?m happy with Parallels.


> On Oct 6, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows 10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?  Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go with Windows 10 Home?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
>> 
>> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
>> 
>> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB feels luxurious.
>> 
>> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and tomorrow.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Sun Oct  6 12:29:32 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 11:29:32 -0500
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <16da1e795e0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

I leave as much extra width as possible and sometimes make the textheight a 
little taller than necessary. Usually it's just the width that's a problem. 
That doesn't work too well if showborder is true though.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 6, 2019 10:38:14 AM Jjs via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text 
> in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and 
> Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and 
> maintain a stack for each OS.
>
> Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> 
> schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>> The original question mentioned testing and debugging.
>>
>> I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>> develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>> using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>>
>> It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>> Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>> prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>> currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>>
>> The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>> however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>> to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>> one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>> emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>>
>> So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>> but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>> want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>> powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>> someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>> monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>> no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>> Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>> something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>> everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>> with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>>
>> In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>>
>> And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>> old guys.
>>
>> As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>> want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>> good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>> Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>> reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>> display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>> No searching for switches, routers and cables.
>>
>> Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>> a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>> Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>> MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>> but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>> anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>>
>> I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>> machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>> different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>> the first year, $800 for subsequent.
>>
>> Dar
>> Mad Scientist
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>> specs for Windows Development computer"
>>>
>>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>> Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>> ...)
>>>
>>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>> Windows only" experience:
>>>
>>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>> seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>> antivirus, and similar results.
>>>
>>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>> hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>> more....
>>>
>>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>> bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>> i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>>>
>>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>> extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>> overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>> budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>>>
>>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>> various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>> performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
>> remove the ball and chains.
>>>
>>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,
>> which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
>> influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
>> Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
>> habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
>> years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
>> proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
>> realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
>> operating systems.
>>>
>>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing
>> for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
>> here! :)
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Curry Kenworthy
>>>
>>> Custom Software Development
>>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> --
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com  Sun Oct  6 12:42:29 2019
From: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com (andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 16:42:29 +0000
Subject: DataGrid Scrolling problem
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1570204801.350728.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <20191006164229.Horde.8E3Vv7WGaVclmYrGO7XOt0T@oa.serversignin.com>

Something seems to have changed in the datagrid code, because I have  
an old iOS device with a version of my software from over a year ago  
and it scrolls fine so I feel like the issue is with my scroller and  
DG2 (this stack pre-dates that change).

I tried Ralph's suggestion of adding 20px, but that wasn't close to  
enough extra cushion: the datagrid is showing all the items EXCEPT the  
last one (unless you scroll "past", but the scroller bounces back to  
showing items 1 to -2 of the datagrid).

Now, I do have a fixed height rows that are much larger than 20px (132  
to be exact). What came closer to working for me was to add an entire  
row to my dgFormattedHeight but this still cuts off the descenders of  
the last row of text.

    put 0,0,(the dgFormattedWidth of group "TSM"),(the  
dgFormattedHeight of group "TSM" + the dgProp["row height"] of group  
"TSM") into tContentRect
    mobileControlCreate "scroller", "listScroll"
    mobileControlSet "listScroll", "contentRect",tContentRect


--Andrew Bell


> I always add 20 PXs to the formattedheight of the control. Then use that
> result for item 4 of the contentrect to solve this. 20 seems to work on all
> device resolutions I've tested although I'm sure that there is a formula
> based on the device resolution that would create consistency between
> devices.
>
>
> Ralph DiMola





From jjs at krutt.org  Sun Oct  6 12:44:15 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:44:15 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <C2070BA1-6E85-4384-BED9-5D7190D55E45@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <08ae4db7-ab14-0e32-eea3-17986822f68c@krutt.org>
 <C2070BA1-6E85-4384-BED9-5D7190D55E45@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <bcb71e47-66f4-9cf8-faf8-662a0dfe77f0@krutt.org>

Hi Martin,

ok that's really strange. You could also not start the safe mode?

Well the first update from Sierra to (the 1st) Mojave did also go wrong 
here, so had to reinstall Sierra then waited for a higher version of 
Mojave 10.14.2 or something and that one went flawless on the Hackintosh.

For a previous job i had a Apple Laptop 2015 model and on it was MacOs 
and Win8.1 with Refind bootloader, but as more customers started using 
win10 i wanted win10 as 3rd boot option.

It took me a whole weekend and i needed it Mondays again. It went wrong 
because they hijack the bootsector from each other. COuld not boot 
win8.1 and after that could not boot MacOs anymore, except for the safe 
mode. It's tricky because one needs to disable the SIP protection and 
mount ESP volume to get Refind on it.

So i can understand that your cautious, so if you are to hesitate than 
just don't do it and go for a safe way.

Regards

Op 6-10-2019 om 16:26 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
> Hi JJS
>
> I have an iMac that has the specs for a dual boot but I am reluctant to do it.   It has a 1 TB fusion drive and when I upgraded from Sierra to Mojave I ended up with a non functioning fusion drive.   I had a nice long chat with the Apple Support tech trying to get it working again, then I was escalated and the engineer had me do a couple of other things and then my Mac was bricked.  He was a bit embarrassed and approved a free repair at my local Mac dealer.   Turns out the upgrade detached the fusion drive?s SSD from its Hard Drive.
>
> It turned out well in the end but I don?t want to go through that again.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin Koob
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 1:54 PM, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why don't you create a dual boot of your mac?
>>
>> Apple itself supports it and delivers the drivers to do so.
>>
>> You only need a win10 license
>>
>>
>> Op 3-10-2019 om 19:48 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>>>
>>> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>>>
>>> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC? processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don?t want to make that mistake again.
>>>
>>> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don?t want to get something underpowered.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> Martin Koob
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Sun Oct  6 12:46:34 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:46:34 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <9e411c03-9726-e322-6597-043c062db23f@gmail.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
 <d13f6fc7-5a77-d14d-f4f8-3d56ab00395c@sonic.net>
 <9e411c03-9726-e322-6597-043c062db23f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <81768773-3019-b003-d06c-7cbe5074290c@krutt.org>

ok thanks guys, so just keep adjusting it on the other platforms as it was.

Op 6-10-2019 om 17:57 schreef Richmond via use-livecode:
> "The IDE itself is bad in this aspect."
>
> Well, yes, down in the undergrowth, in "Find" and so on there are odd 
> labels
> that overflow their borders. But not in a major way.
>
> This is more a case of the interface designers forgetting that fonts 
> "wax and wane"
> cross-platform and that they need to make stretchy label fields.
>
> On 6.10.19 18:48, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
>> On 10/4/19 10:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode wrote:
>>> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs 
>>> having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows 
>>> even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And 
>>> i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.
>>
>> It has been ever thus. The IDE itself is bad in this aspect. I try to 
>> deal with this by determining which will require the most space and 
>> work backwards from that.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Sun Oct  6 12:47:41 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:47:41 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <16da1e795e0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
 <16da1e795e0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <984593f8-956a-eb5e-20d0-7c96107403c9@krutt.org>

ok thanks Jacqueline

Op 6-10-2019 om 18:29 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode:
> I leave as much extra width as possible and sometimes make the 
> textheight a little taller than necessary. Usually it's just the width 
> that's a problem. That doesn't work too well if showborder is true 
> though.
>
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On October 6, 2019 10:38:14 AM Jjs via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs 
>> having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows 
>> even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And 
>> i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.
>>
>> Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> 
>> schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>>> The original question mentioned testing and debugging.
>>>
>>> I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>>> develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>>> using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>>>
>>> It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>>> Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>>> prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>>> currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>>>
>>> The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>>> however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>>> to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>>> one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>>> emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>>>
>>> So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>>> but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>>> want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>>> powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>>> someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>>> monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>>> no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>>> Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>>> something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>>> everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>>> with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>>>
>>> In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>>>
>>> And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>>> old guys.
>>>
>>> As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>>> want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>>> good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>>> Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>>> reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>>> display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>>> No searching for switches, routers and cables.
>>>
>>> Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>>> a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>>> Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>>> MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>>> but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>>> anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>>>
>>> I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>>> machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>>> different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>>> the first year, $800 for subsequent.
>>>
>>> Dar
>>> Mad Scientist
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>>> specs for Windows Development computer"
>>>>
>>>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>>> Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>>> ...)
>>>>
>>>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>>> Windows only" experience:
>>>>
>>>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>>> seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>>> antivirus, and similar results.
>>>>
>>>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>>> hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>>> more....
>>>>
>>>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>>> bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>>> i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>>>>
>>>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>>> extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>>> overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>>> budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>>>>
>>>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>>> various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>>> performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
>>> remove the ball and chains.
>>>>
>>>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,
>>> which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
>>> influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
>>> Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
>>> habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
>>> years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
>>> proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
>>> realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
>>> operating systems.
>>>>
>>>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing
>>> for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
>>> here! :)
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Curry Kenworthy
>>>>
>>>> Custom Software Development
>>>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>>>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>>>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> -- 
>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Sun Oct  6 12:50:03 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:50:03 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
 <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <6a164f9b-2a8a-c68b-011f-4301416cf2d9@krutt.org>

I would go for the Pro. So you have some more options then the Home 
version.

Also depends on the what your customers mostly have.

Op 6-10-2019 om 18:21 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
> Hi
>
> I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows 10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?  Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go with Windows 10 Home?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin Koob
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
>>
>> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
>>
>> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB feels luxurious.
>>
>> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and tomorrow.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sun Oct  6 13:49:08 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:49:08 -0700
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <85725ace-b5bd-f6db-7273-721b999916d2@gmail.com>
References: <85725ace-b5bd-f6db-7273-721b999916d2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbb63f7c-a603-92d4-a90e-45110d64db8d@fourthworld.com>

For the many questions that have arisen regarding TIOBE's methodology:

As a general rule, I ignore any ranking or polling publisher who doesn't 
disclose their methodology. Thankfully TIOBE is not among those.

As JB already posted earlier, TIOBE publishes their definition on this 
page, linked to from near the top of the Index page:

    https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/

Additionally, there's an FAQ in the bottom portion of the Index page I'd 
linked to, which provides some further useful background:

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

Like any means of assessing complex multivariate phenomena in a single 
index, no doubt their ranking is imperfect.  But it's become an industry 
go-to because so far it's the best we have.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sun Oct  6 13:55:16 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:55:16 -0700
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <6a164f9b-2a8a-c68b-011f-4301416cf2d9@krutt.org>
References: <6a164f9b-2a8a-c68b-011f-4301416cf2d9@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <d00316d7-f068-831f-b81a-a08f091df504@fourthworld.com>

JJS wrote:

 > I would go for the Pro. So you have some more options then the Home
 > version.

Seconded.

For the reasonable cost difference, better to have the Pro options 
available that your businesses customers will have, and be able to just 
ignore those for Home customers, than to get Home and never be able to 
use the Pro features at all.

My personal favorite Pro feature is the inclusion of a complete Linux 
shell within Windows.  It's not just a Linux fanboy feature, but useful 
for Mac devs too:  with it you can write bash scripts, so many sysadmin 
tasks can be automated in a single language now, and run them on all 
three platforms.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sun Oct  6 14:05:12 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 11:05:12 -0700
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <fbb63f7c-a603-92d4-a90e-45110d64db8d@fourthworld.com>
References: <85725ace-b5bd-f6db-7273-721b999916d2@gmail.com>
 <fbb63f7c-a603-92d4-a90e-45110d64db8d@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <8f7bbeda-f2f7-986c-7e69-9443f1af4c61@sonic.net>

On 10/6/19 10:49 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> As JB already posted earlier, TIOBE publishes their definition on this 
> page, linked to from near the top of the Index page:
> 
>  ?? https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/

Wot, no DuckDuckGo?

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sun Oct  6 14:20:12 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 11:20:12 -0700
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <d00316d7-f068-831f-b81a-a08f091df504@fourthworld.com>
References: <6a164f9b-2a8a-c68b-011f-4301416cf2d9@krutt.org>
 <d00316d7-f068-831f-b81a-a08f091df504@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <98983e4f-9f20-8ded-735b-1f74a2d2ea24@sonic.net>

On 10/6/19 10:55 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> My personal favorite Pro feature is the inclusion of a complete Linux 
> shell within Windows.

Waitwhat? How is that licensed? Is that a bash shell (GPL?) How do they 
get away with this?

Update: OK - I looked at this (after a DuckDuckGo search)
<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/faq>
and I'm still mystified about how they sneak around the licensing. I'm 
amused by having the ability to run Kali linux with all the underlying 
stability of Windows.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Sun Oct  6 16:08:26 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 16:08:26 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
 <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <000801d57c81$d3efa120$7bcee360$@net>

I would go with pro. You can defer updates with pro so that Monday demo does
not go sideways because of a Sunday night forced update.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Martin Koob via use-livecode
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2019 12:21 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Martin Koob
Subject: Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 

Hi

I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy
of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows
10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?
Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go
with Windows 10 Home?

Thanks.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few
years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else
since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found
VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
> 
> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders,
hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS
has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
> 
> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16
GB feels luxurious.
> 
> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the
present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for
testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin
up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and
tomorrow.

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dsc at swcp.com  Sun Oct  6 16:22:41 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (dsc at swcp.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 14:22:41 -0600
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <073B224C-02DF-43EE-B076-0F67B8BEA564@swcp.com>

I tend to use a lot of whitespace in layout and keep label fields and text buttons long.

And, since I am often the LiveCode programmer's programmer, building libraries & LCB extensions and such, I sometimes just throw controls onto the card. (Which might contribute to the notion that Dar can't GUI.)

Platform, window size, display size, and font availability are all in the environment. Perhaps these can be handled in a uniform manner as one might do a stack resize.

If I need to, I use raw primitive controls and use appropriate graphics.

So, to address the question, for simple stacks, I design for Mac and adjust for Windows.

> On Oct 4, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.
> 
> Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>> The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 
>> 
>> I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>> develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>> using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>> 
>> It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>> Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>> prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>> currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>> 
>> The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>> however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>> to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>> one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>> emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>> 
>> So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>> but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>> want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>> powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>> someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>> monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>> no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>> Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>> something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>> everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>> with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>> 
>> In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>> 
>> And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>> old guys.
>> 
>> As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>> want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>> good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>> Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>> reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>> display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>> No searching for switches, routers and cables. 
>> 
>> Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>> a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>> Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>> MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>> but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>> anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>> 
>> I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>> machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>> different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>> the first year, $800 for subsequent. 
>> 
>> Dar
>> Mad Scientist
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>> specs for Windows Development computer"
>>> 
>>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>> Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>> ...)
>>> 
>>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>> Windows only" experience:
>>> 
>>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>> seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>> antivirus, and similar results.
>>> 
>>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>> hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>> more....
>>> 
>>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>> bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>> i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>>> 
>>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>> extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>> overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>> budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>>> 
>>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>> various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>> performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
>> remove the ball and chains.
>>> 
>>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,
>> which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
>> influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
>> Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
>> habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
>> years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
>> proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
>> realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
>> operating systems.
>>> 
>>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing
>> for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
>> here! :)
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> Curry Kenworthy
>>> 
>>> Custom Software Development
>>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> -- 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dsc at swcp.com  Sun Oct  6 16:32:15 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 14:32:15 -0600
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <000801d57c81$d3efa120$7bcee360$@net>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
 <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
 <000801d57c81$d3efa120$7bcee360$@net>
Message-ID: <E5A3CCC9-92BB-459A-839B-C44C276939D7@swcp.com>

Pro. 

If a customer wants you to test on Home, buy it at that time. 

If a customer wants you to test on lots of Windows platforms, get Visual Studio Pro and build as many virtual machines or real machines you want (for development).

If you are the customer, uh, well, it still applies.


> On Oct 6, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I would go with pro. You can defer updates with pro so that Monday demo does
> not go sideways because of a Sunday night forced update.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Martin Koob via use-livecode
> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2019 12:21 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Martin Koob
> Subject: Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
> 
> Hi
> 
> I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy
> of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows
> 10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?
> Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go
> with Windows 10 Home?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few
> years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else
> since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found
> VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
>> 
>> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders,
> hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS
> has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
>> 
>> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16
> GB feels luxurious.
>> 
>> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the
> present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for
> testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin
> up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and
> tomorrow.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From mkoob at rogers.com  Sun Oct  6 18:17:15 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:17:15 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <bcb71e47-66f4-9cf8-faf8-662a0dfe77f0@krutt.org>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <08ae4db7-ab14-0e32-eea3-17986822f68c@krutt.org>
 <C2070BA1-6E85-4384-BED9-5D7190D55E45@rogers.com>
 <bcb71e47-66f4-9cf8-faf8-662a0dfe77f0@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <A82F32BD-9A18-4946-B293-FBE4A3C67E96@rogers.com>

Hi JJS.

I can?t remember everything exactly ? it was a while ago ? but I think originally I could start in safe mode and tried to follow online help documents to try and install Mojave.  When I exhausted all the online support articles I could find I called Apple support.  They walked me through a number of steps and each time it got worse to the point they escalated it.    All in all the Apple support people were great.  They stayed on the line with me for an hour or so and finally they gave me a CS number which I gather stands for ?Customer Satisfaction?   That meant I could go to an authorized repair place and get the work needed to get it back in shape done for free.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 6, 2019, at 12:44 PM, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Martin,
> 
> ok that's really strange. You could also not start the safe mode?
> 
> Well the first update from Sierra to (the 1st) Mojave did also go wrong here, so had to reinstall Sierra then waited for a higher version of Mojave 10.14.2 or something and that one went flawless on the Hackintosh.
> 
> For a previous job i had a Apple Laptop 2015 model and on it was MacOs and Win8.1 with Refind bootloader, but as more customers started using win10 i wanted win10 as 3rd boot option.
> 
> It took me a whole weekend and i needed it Mondays again. It went wrong because they hijack the bootsector from each other. COuld not boot win8.1 and after that could not boot MacOs anymore, except for the safe mode. It's tricky because one needs to disable the SIP protection and mount ESP volume to get Refind on it.
> 
> So i can understand that your cautious, so if you are to hesitate than just don't do it and go for a safe way.



From bogdanoff at me.com  Sun Oct  6 19:31:00 2019
From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 19:31:00 -0400
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <073B224C-02DF-43EE-B076-0F67B8BEA564@swcp.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
 <073B224C-02DF-43EE-B076-0F67B8BEA564@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <0D039619-0E68-4695-8F8A-4B63AB1E34A5@me.com>

I work on text-heavy e-book-like, multi-language applications where layout is important.

I use fields instead of buttons as it is much easier to control the text display.

For field length, I often set the height of the field to the formatted height since Windows text (and other languages) will flow differently than Mac. However the card has to be showing to do this; you can?t do that from another card.

Also a difference between Mac/Windows is that for fields who?s textHeight is not set (fixed line height not checked), the default spacing between lines is different between Mac & Windows. I use images inline (image source set to an image?s ID) and you can?t fix the line height when that is happening.

So, to make Mac and Windows look as similar as possible in a paragraph of text where the text continues on to another page, I add carriage returns after every line of the Mac text (my development platform) and then export the htmlText to the database. Then when Windows loads the text in, the line breaks look more or less the same?I do have to make the field a little wider for Windows display. The height of Windows fields will need to be some 10% taller.

Also I use standard fonts, Georgia and Helvetica.

There?s a free version of my music application, Music In the Air, available to see this:
https://artsinteractiveinc.com


Peter Bogdanoff
ArtsInteractive

> On Oct 6, 2019, at 4:22 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I tend to use a lot of whitespace in layout and keep label fields and text buttons long.
> 
> And, since I am often the LiveCode programmer's programmer, building libraries & LCB extensions and such, I sometimes just throw controls onto the card. (Which might contribute to the notion that Dar can't GUI.)
> 
> Platform, window size, display size, and font availability are all in the environment. Perhaps these can be handled in a uniform manner as one might do a stack resize.
> 
> If I need to, I use raw primitive controls and use appropriate graphics.
> 
> So, to address the question, for simple stacks, I design for Mac and adjust for Windows.
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.
>> 
>> Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>>> The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 
>>> 
>>> I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>>> develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>>> using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>>> 
>>> It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>>> Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>>> prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>>> currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>>> 
>>> The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>>> however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>>> to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>>> one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>>> emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>>> 
>>> So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>>> but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>>> want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>>> powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>>> someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>>> monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>>> no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>>> Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>>> something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>>> everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>>> with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>>> 
>>> In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>>> 
>>> And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>>> old guys.
>>> 
>>> As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>>> want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>>> good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>>> Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>>> reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>>> display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>>> No searching for switches, routers and cables. 
>>> 
>>> Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>>> a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>>> Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>>> MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>>> but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>>> anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>>> 
>>> I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>>> machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>>> different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>>> the first year, $800 for subsequent. 
>>> 
>>> Dar
>>> Mad Scientist
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>>> specs for Windows Development computer"
>>>> 
>>>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>>> Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>>> ...)
>>>> 
>>>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>>> Windows only" experience:
>>>> 
>>>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>>> seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>>> antivirus, and similar results.
>>>> 
>>>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>>> hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>>> more....
>>>> 
>>>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>>> bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>>> i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>>>> 
>>>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>>> extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>>> overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>>> budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>>>> 
>>>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>>> various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>>> performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
>>> remove the ball and chains.
>>>> 
>>>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,
>>> which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
>>> influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
>>> Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
>>> habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
>>> years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
>>> proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
>>> realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
>>> operating systems.
>>>> 
>>>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing
>>> for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
>>> here! :)
>>>> 
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> 
>>>> Curry Kenworthy
>>>> 
>>>> Custom Software Development
>>>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>>>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>>>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> -- 
>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From brahma at hindu.org  Sun Oct  6 20:28:19 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 00:28:19 +0000
Subject: Stop Processing a Web Connection
Message-ID: <A483FF5F-88AF-4C19-AE4A-059E6F9C4565@hindu.org>

I think I have found a bug in our mobile app?. which is that:

 If there is poor bandwidth, say, when the user is trying to get a video in  the browser widget, or the there is a direct call for other resources from our API (images, audio for player, big XML/Json. etc)  the UI hangs. They click a "Go Back" button, but it think that app is trying to (unsuccessufully) process the connection

Now users are typically aware that they have bandwidth issues. For now I don?t want to complicate things by using "tsNetSetTimeouts" to give the user detailed info--maybe in a later version. 

I just want  have them to disconnect as soon as they touch a button, typically a "go back" button.

I keep a TSNET api document at my side. I only  find two options, as soon as the user says in their mind "I going to bail on this" and hit something, should we use:

tsNetclose

tsNetLibUrlReuseConnection false

?

Any other suggestions on the general architecture to address this scenario will also be appreciated.

BR


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sun Oct  6 20:41:58 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 17:41:58 -0700
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>

On 9/25/19 7:48 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:
> We have a command
> 
> 
> command Journal_LaunchEntry pEntryID
> 
> in the message path, via a
> 
> start using "model_Journal.livecodescript"
> 
> But click on the command  script editor "Get definition" is dimmed.
> 
> Is this a "bug"? I can you find a search to find it, but that seems"lame"

I just submitted a PR to fix a "get definition" bug. Currently if the 
handler you're looking for is in quotes the menu item will be dimmed.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From livfoss at mac.com  Mon Oct  7 07:33:17 2019
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:33:17 +0100
Subject: OT: Widgets - just a bit of nonsense
Message-ID: <6BC95A58-C661-4D3E-85DE-BADE2FBEF0FC@mac.com>

It so happens that I?m digitising Roald Dahl?s first book, written when he was still a Flight Lieutenant in the Royal Air Force, and I came across this. Forgive any lack of political correctness - it was a very long time ago:

> ?I've just found a nest of widgets,? he said, and looked around in triumph. 
> ?Widgets?? said Stuffy. ?Widgets? Never heard of them!? 
> But Jamface went on. ?As I said, I've just found a nest of widgets located in the rear turret of my plane. There were twelve of them very young ones.? 
> ?What are widgets?" asked Gus. 
> ?It's very simple,? said Jamface. ?Widgets are the young of gremlins and fifinellas. No one knows until they grow up whether they are going to turn into males or females, but it's usually males; in each nest of twelve widgets only one will eventually turn into a fifinella.? 

Back to work?

Graham




From brahma at hindu.org  Mon Oct  7 09:26:34 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:26:34 +0000
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>


Not only that.

I don't think the SE "get definition(s)" from *.livecodescript, stacks. Unless perhaps they are open.

I just submitted a PR to fix a "get definition" bug. Currently if the
handler you're looking for is in quotes the menu item will be dimmed.

From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Mon Oct  7 10:41:52 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:41:52 -0500
Subject: Determine if Windows engine is 32-bit or 64-bit?
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG8Fk243sqnEtB0juAnRSh2-Q9xcjZB7O7bre5Ti=i3Arw@mail.gmail.com>

With LiveCode 9.5 one can deploy 32-bit or 64bit Windows applications.
While LiveCode Builder has an `architecture` function that can be used to
detect 64-bit, LiveCode Script does not. Does anybody have a function for
determine 64-bit vs. 32-bit architecture in LCS?

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From mark at livecode.com  Mon Oct  7 10:47:29 2019
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 15:47:29 +0100
Subject: Determine if Windows engine is 32-bit or 64-bit?
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG8Fk243sqnEtB0juAnRSh2-Q9xcjZB7O7bre5Ti=i3Arw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHg3tG8Fk243sqnEtB0juAnRSh2-Q9xcjZB7O7bre5Ti=i3Arw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3c8789e70e48321f4c5e48161a2363a1@livecode.com>

On 2019-10-07 15:41, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> With LiveCode 9.5 one can deploy 32-bit or 64bit Windows applications.
> While LiveCode Builder has an `architecture` function that can be used 
> to
> detect 64-bit, LiveCode Script does not. Does anybody have a function 
> for
> determine 64-bit vs. 32-bit architecture in LCS?

I think 'the processor' does what you want - well it does the same thing 
as
'the architecture' in LCB at least (it returns x86, x86_64, arm64, arm 
or js
depending on how the engine was compiled).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct  7 10:50:14 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:50:14 +0000
Subject: LiveCode 9.0.5
In-Reply-To: <ca46b7e3-d995-44da-b2e6-23796b75d62b@Spark>
References: <e22a7851-8c46-25ef-3e27-22b507aabadd@gmail.com>
 <ee1b8b79-2f3c-4e30-a1cd-d25ffc2ac682@Spark>
 <0416bbd3-ddf9-a526-0554-a43ecc62d9bd@krutt.org>
 <ca46b7e3-d995-44da-b2e6-23796b75d62b@Spark>
Message-ID: <BB70C57C-3C62-4B2D-B065-3CDCC5942E03@iotecdigital.com>

Ok. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 16:20 , Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, any bug fixes in 9.0.5 will be (or have been) merged into the 9.5 branch.
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 4, 2019, 4:01 PM -0400, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> I understand, but these will be merged into 9.5.x ? right?
>> 
>> I might think people will go to 9.5.x instead of 9.0.5
>> 
>> Op 4-10-2019 om 21:47 schreef Brian Milby via use-livecode:
>>> 9.0.x merely fixes bugs
>>> 9.5 is a feature bump release (and 9.5.x will be subsequent bug fix releases)
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Brian
>>> On Oct 4, 2019, 2:26 PM -0400, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>>>> I am a bit confused about LiveCode 9.0.5 Stable,
>>>> as surely it has been superseded by LiveCode 9.5.0 Stable?
>>>> 
>>>> After all LiveCode 8.2.0 went "nowhere".
>>>> 
>>>> I would be grateful if someone could explain how stable releases
>>>> released after stable versions of LiveCode with higher version
>>>> numbers work in the "great scheme of thing?"
>>>> 
>>>> Richmond.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Mon Oct  7 10:57:10 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:57:10 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <6606c386-1c95-b31e-ee8a-70ef124f847c@gmail.com>
References: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>
 <6606c386-1c95-b31e-ee8a-70ef124f847c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycPPoa2VFO9+iqwuiyZPPdscmiYqeHX-J0z4C5x0JdVXrA@mail.gmail.com>

there isn't any reason why bug bounties have to all go to the mothership.
you're (for lack of a better word) kickstarting a bug fix.  it's a bounty.
it should go to the person who delivers the fix, the bounty hunter.


From panos.merakos at livecode.com  Mon Oct  7 11:23:20 2019
From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:23:20 +0300
Subject: [ANN] This Week in LiveCode 197
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq--5F1eSG1PS1=kbEKtJ8wq8y=cDKPJzsU9RoA7wf8_Zg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Read about new developments in LiveCode open source and the open source
community in today's edition of the "This Week in LiveCode" newsletter!

        Read issue #197 here: http://bit.ly/2OvkIsr

This is a weekly newsletter about LiveCode, focussing on what's been
going on in and around the open source project. New issues will be
released weekly on Mondays. We have a dedicated mailing list that will
deliver each issue directly to you e-mail, so you don't miss any!

If you have anything you'd like mentioned (a project, a discussion
somewhere, an upcoming event) then please get in touch.


-- 
Panagiotis Merakos <panos.merakos at livecode.com>
LiveCode Software Developer

Everyone Can Create Apps <https://livecode.com>


From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Mon Oct  7 11:25:38 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:25:38 -0500
Subject: Determine if Windows engine is 32-bit or 64-bit?
In-Reply-To: <3c8789e70e48321f4c5e48161a2363a1@livecode.com>
References: <CAHg3tG8Fk243sqnEtB0juAnRSh2-Q9xcjZB7O7bre5Ti=i3Arw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c8789e70e48321f4c5e48161a2363a1@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG-uLL1rAetw5wdQdDpM6pzqfN7a89ioem33a4Pxs-niOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:47 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2019-10-07 15:41, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> > With LiveCode 9.5 one can deploy 32-bit or 64bit Windows applications.
> > While LiveCode Builder has an `architecture` function that can be used
> > to
> > detect 64-bit, LiveCode Script does not. Does anybody have a function
> > for
> > determine 64-bit vs. 32-bit architecture in LCS?
>
> I think 'the processor' does what you want - well it does the same thing
> as
> 'the architecture' in LCB at least (it returns x86, x86_64, arm64, arm
> or js
> depending on how the engine was compiled).
>

Right you are. I think I'll add a "related" entry to `platform` in the docs
that points to `processor`.

Thanks!

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Mon Oct  7 11:28:30 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:28:30 -0500
Subject: Determine if Windows engine is 32-bit or 64-bit?
In-Reply-To: <3c8789e70e48321f4c5e48161a2363a1@livecode.com>
References: <CAHg3tG8Fk243sqnEtB0juAnRSh2-Q9xcjZB7O7bre5Ti=i3Arw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c8789e70e48321f4c5e48161a2363a1@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG-xbc_Q96FyP+sKZ395q-ipAjKqLt65U90-LukimNRh0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:47 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2019-10-07 15:41, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> > With LiveCode 9.5 one can deploy 32-bit or 64bit Windows applications.
> > While LiveCode Builder has an `architecture` function that can be used
> > to
> > detect 64-bit, LiveCode Script does not. Does anybody have a function
> > for
> > determine 64-bit vs. 32-bit architecture in LCS?
>
> I think 'the processor' does what you want - well it does the same thing
> as
> 'the architecture' in LCB at least (it returns x86, x86_64, arm64, arm
> or js
> depending on how the engine was compiled).
>

Hmm, looks like the docs need updating. The docs for the `processor` say it
returns the system's CPU chip which is different than how the engine was
compiled. I see there is already a Bug report for it:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22164

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Mon Oct  7 11:38:18 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 10:38:18 -0500
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

That's been my experience too, script-only stacks aren't searched when 
looking for handler definitions.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 7, 2019 8:28:39 AM Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Not only that.
>
>
> I don't think the SE "get definition(s)" from *.livecodescript, stacks. 
> Unless perhaps they are open.
>
>
> I just submitted a PR to fix a "get definition" bug. Currently if the
> handler you're looking for is in quotes the menu item will be dimmed.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Oct  7 12:07:48 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:07:48 -0700
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
 <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <44c99243-69fa-34b8-0f65-bccf90610de3@sonic.net>

On 10/7/19 8:38 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> That's been my experience too, script-only stacks aren't searched when 
> looking for handler definitions.

Hmmm... I don't have that problem. Do you have an example of one that 
doesn't work?

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Oct  7 12:09:22 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:09:22 -0700
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <c412e7c7-68cb-bfa2-1a46-0685143d4ef6@sonic.net>

On 10/7/19 6:26 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:
> 
> Not only that.
> 
> I don't think the SE "get definition(s)" from *.livecodescript, stacks. Unless perhaps they are open.

I'm probably misunderstanding something here, but it sounds like you 
want to search for definitions in stacks that aren't in memory.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct  7 12:16:14 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:16:14 +0000
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <1ae8f74c-cdce-54a6-b202-461a5259b1fe@tweedly.net>
References: <d0ebb53e-54d8-bebf-e451-67c87b28568e@gmail.com>
 <66ea098e-49e4-f6ab-030b-a86b11e6886f@fourthworld.com>
 <1ae8f74c-cdce-54a6-b202-461a5259b1fe@tweedly.net>
Message-ID: <B5CE4240-6A88-4034-8438-3E377C9D3EE3@iotecdigital.com>

I have a theory that the solution to a problem cannot be simpler than the problem itself. If it is, then the problem wasn't as complex as first imagined. 

The issue with developing with multiple dissimilar platforms is that the interface is SOOO different between desktop and mobile, that a method which would make sense on one platform has no corrolary on another. 

The reason Windows/MacOS/Linux cross platform objects work so well is that they are so nearly identical in function (if not form). Mobile platforms are considerable different. Whereas a desktop window can be any size, a mobile app doesn't have windows per se. The android has a file system, the iOS does not (at east not one you can access). Desktop systems allow for relatively easy cross application communication. iOS is specifically designed to prevent this without at least being challenged. Desktop systems have popup menus (effectively a window on top of a window). Mobile devices, at least iOS has scroll wheels. 

I have not developed for mobile simply because when I had the business license, I was too lazy to get started before the license expired, and I didn't want to get into a situation where to add a new feature once in a while I needed to reup the license. I pay out of my own pocket for LC, but use it for work only. But it seems reading the list that mobile dev, while difficult to deploy, is manageable. And since deployment is a moving target anyway, the way Apple keeps changing xCode, I'm not sure LC could do any more to ease that process. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 18:26 , Alex Tweedly via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> LC is *an easy* environment/language to develop cross-platform apps for all major platforms
>> 
> That's right - it's already "easiest", but it's not "easy".
> 
> Currently you can't write even very simple apps using the 'built-in', cross-platform features and get something acceptable for the mobile platforms. You need to use some combination of "mobileXXX' and  "iosXXX'" or "androidXXX" functions to get something that is even remotely acceptable as a 'finished' app.




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct  7 12:18:40 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:18:40 +0000
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <CAG1Q0g97QSJ=2r7g6Npro3JDZE5HOhjkPGrbb_fgrOBo_nQ+zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1Q0g97QSJ=2r7g6Npro3JDZE5HOhjkPGrbb_fgrOBo_nQ+zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AA6A19F6-C49F-41DD-B935-042AC08F8D87@iotecdigital.com>

Because Apple is no longer going to accept apps that are nothing more than a web portal. 

> On Oct 5, 2019, at 05:47 , R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
> everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I develop
> even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same can be
> done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page interface, but do
> people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for single page
> interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Mon Oct  7 12:28:41 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 11:28:41 -0500
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <44c99243-69fa-34b8-0f65-bccf90610de3@sonic.net>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
 <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <44c99243-69fa-34b8-0f65-bccf90610de3@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <16da70d2aa8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

I don't have a current example, it happened when I was working on Swami's 
project which is almost entirely script-only stacks. I had to use BBEdit to 
search folders to find a handler definition.

He could probably provide an example though.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 7, 2019 11:09:48 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 10/7/19 8:38 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> That's been my experience too, script-only stacks aren't searched when
>> looking for handler definitions.
>
> Hmmm... I don't have that problem. Do you have an example of one that
> doesn't work?
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct  7 13:13:16 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 17:13:16 +0000
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
In-Reply-To: <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
References: <2236F401-A72E-4B12-B4FC-232BD8C2E992@rogers.com>
 <831f9fcb-2e9c-3199-6954-65e5638b78bd@fourthworld.com>
 <A31AD5D4-B59E-48FF-A745-2AD9E15ADFBC@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <63AA7D17-F8F5-4789-A147-43C9258A148F@iotecdigital.com>

Home is fine unless you are going to be using it in a business environment. If you aren't or never will be joining a domain, if you are not going to be sharing files (except with other Windows 10 Home computers) then 10 Home should be fine. 

Bob S


> On Oct 6, 2019, at 09:21 , Martin Koob via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows 10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?  Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go with Windows 10 Home?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
>> 
>> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
>> 
>> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB feels luxurious.
>> 
>> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and tomorrow.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct  7 13:39:32 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 17:39:32 +0000
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <1a704344-7137-ddee-1836-106cab27e8b3@sonic.net>
References: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <f4f5e72e-69d0-dd8c-d184-e0e1f828be13@pair.com>
 <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <247839d0-9e9b-239b-a351-ba6a62473703@gmail.com>
 <1a704344-7137-ddee-1836-106cab27e8b3@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <38582329-8394-407B-8F4E-FDB7415DD060@iotecdigital.com>



> On Oct 5, 2019, at 16:10 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Happily most of the efforts I've helped fund on Kickstarter have reached conclusions (the Deathstar never got completely funded).

So they say...


From e.beugelaar at me.com  Mon Oct  7 14:13:44 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 20:13:44 +0200
Subject: LiveCode now #49 at TIOBE Index!
In-Reply-To: <56E2C9AE-C115-44D7-93BE-54F9D5AB6911@krutt.org>
References: <2495f9c890d780b8a8d9953aebb5f747@fourthworld.com>
 <611e7505-6d22-5c9b-5783-6978f9323eab@sonic.net>
 <85725ace-b5bd-f6db-7273-721b999916d2@gmail.com>
 <56E2C9AE-C115-44D7-93BE-54F9D5AB6911@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <2FEE7558-5B8F-4008-A2FD-41B195ADC9B6@me.com>

In my working life as an ict-engineer it was most of the times Microsoft related, so starting with Visual Basic 6/SQL Server decades ago and ending up with .NET/C# nowadays not to mention the SharePoint (365) and BizTalk implementations... But I must say I have only worked for companies who were Microsoft Dev Partners.


?On 06/10/2019, 17:37, "use-livecode on behalf of Jjs via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Well in terms of jobs here in NL, most asked is Java, PHP, JavaScript,C++,SQL and a few others. The rest almost never.
    
    Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 6 oktober 2019 08:37:13 CEST:
    >
    >
    >On 6.10.19 1:59, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
    >> On 10/5/19 3:36 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
    >>
    >>> But this month LC broke new ground:
    >>>
    >>> For the first time since I've been tracking TIOBE, LC IS NOW IN THE 
    >>> UPPER 50, ranked as the 49th most popular language:
    >>>
    >>> https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
    >>
    >> Great news!, I think... note that the TIOBE rating is based on lines 
    >> of code written, not popularity.
    >
    >Lines of code written where?
    >
    >Lines of code written in what context?
    >
    >Are the TIOBE people able to stick their virtual noses into every 
    >computer on the planet
    >and see who is doing what with what programming language?
    >
    >This all seems a bit specious.
    >
    >Frankly I'd be far, far more interested to know in what contexts 
    >different programming languages are used.
    >
    >Over here, in Bulgaria, something like 90% of IT companies are hooked
    >on 
    >C++, and the rest on C#,
    >while high schools seem to be split between C++/# and Visual BASIC. But
    >
    >Bulgaria is an "ever so slightly
    >retro" country that is very small indeed, so, statistically probably
    >has 
    >very little bearing on the global
    >situation.
    >>
    >> I'm not fond of metrics based on lines of code written. Since
    >LiveCode 
    >> packs so much power into a single statement vs the number of line of 
    >> code it takes to do the same job in most other languages, I'd think 
    >> that we're actually much higher in the standings than a simple 
    >> quantitative statistic would indicate.
    >
    >Indeed.
    >
    >And quantative is not necessarily qualitative.
    >>
    >> What did we knock out of place to get there? I see we're only 0.001% 
    >> above Crystal, whatever that is.
    >? Meth ?
    >
    >The fact that LiveCode is at position 49 is, nevertheless, good, as it 
    >might attract the attention
    >of the sort of people who make decisions of what sort of programming 
    >language to use on
    >its popularity: and while that might seem a bit naff, every little 
    >advance helps.
    >
    >
    >_______________________________________________
    >use-livecode mailing list
    >use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    >Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
    >subscription preferences:
    >http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    
    -- 
    Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From jjs at krutt.org  Mon Oct  7 15:02:06 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:02:06 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <0D039619-0E68-4695-8F8A-4B63AB1E34A5@me.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
 <073B224C-02DF-43EE-B076-0F67B8BEA564@swcp.com>
 <0D039619-0E68-4695-8F8A-4B63AB1E34A5@me.com>
Message-ID: <92cffb82-30bf-037a-e56c-6139b6ebbd4c@krutt.org>

Thanks for sharing your tips Peter.

Appreciate it, and will test some.


Regards!

Op 7-10-2019 om 01:31 schreef Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode:
> I work on text-heavy e-book-like, multi-language applications where layout is important.
>
> I use fields instead of buttons as it is much easier to control the text display.
>
> For field length, I often set the height of the field to the formatted height since Windows text (and other languages) will flow differently than Mac. However the card has to be showing to do this; you can?t do that from another card.
>
> Also a difference between Mac/Windows is that for fields who?s textHeight is not set (fixed line height not checked), the default spacing between lines is different between Mac & Windows. I use images inline (image source set to an image?s ID) and you can?t fix the line height when that is happening.
>
> So, to make Mac and Windows look as similar as possible in a paragraph of text where the text continues on to another page, I add carriage returns after every line of the Mac text (my development platform) and then export the htmlText to the database. Then when Windows loads the text in, the line breaks look more or less the same?I do have to make the field a little wider for Windows display. The height of Windows fields will need to be some 10% taller.
>
> Also I use standard fonts, Georgia and Helvetica.
>
> There?s a free version of my music application, Music In the Air, available to see this:
> https://artsinteractiveinc.com
>
>
> Peter Bogdanoff
> ArtsInteractive
>
>> On Oct 6, 2019, at 4:22 PM, dsc--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> I tend to use a lot of whitespace in layout and keep label fields and text buttons long.
>>
>> And, since I am often the LiveCode programmer's programmer, building libraries & LCB extensions and such, I sometimes just throw controls onto the card. (Which might contribute to the notion that Dar can't GUI.)
>>
>> Platform, window size, display size, and font availability are all in the environment. Perhaps these can be handled in a uniform manner as one might do a stack resize.
>>
>> If I need to, I use raw primitive controls and use appropriate graphics.
>>
>> So, to address the question, for simple stacks, I design for Mac and adjust for Windows.
>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.
>>>
>>> Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>>>> The original question mentioned testing and debugging.
>>>>
>>>> I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>>>> develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>>>> using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>>>>
>>>> It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>>>> Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>>>> prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>>>> currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>>>>
>>>> The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>>>> however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>>>> to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>>>> one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>>>> emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>>>>
>>>> So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>>>> but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>>>> want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>>>> powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>>>> someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>>>> monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>>>> no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>>>> Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>>>> something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>>>> everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>>>> with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>>>>
>>>> In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>>>>
>>>> And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>>>> old guys.
>>>>
>>>> As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>>>> want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>>>> good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>>>> Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>>>> reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>>>> display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>>>> No searching for switches, routers and cables.
>>>>
>>>> Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>>>> a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>>>> Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>>>> MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>>>> but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>>>> anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>>>>
>>>> I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>>>> machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>>>> different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>>>> the first year, $800 for subsequent.
>>>>
>>>> Dar
>>>> Mad Scientist
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
>>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>>>> specs for Windows Development computer"
>>>>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>>>> Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>>>> ...)
>>>>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>>>> Windows only" experience:
>>>>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>>>> seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>>>> antivirus, and similar results.
>>>>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>>>> hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>>>> more....
>>>>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>>>> bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>>>> i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>>>>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>>>> extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>>>> overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>>>> budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>>>>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>>>> various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>>>> performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
>>>> remove the ball and chains.
>>>>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,
>>>> which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
>>>> influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
>>>> Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
>>>> habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
>>>> years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
>>>> proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
>>>> realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
>>>> operating systems.
>>>>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing
>>>> for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
>>>> here! :)
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Curry Kenworthy
>>>>>
>>>>> Custom Software Development
>>>>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>>>>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>>>>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> -- 
>>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Mon Oct  7 15:31:27 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:31:27 +0200
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <AA6A19F6-C49F-41DD-B935-042AC08F8D87@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAG1Q0g97QSJ=2r7g6Npro3JDZE5HOhjkPGrbb_fgrOBo_nQ+zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <AA6A19F6-C49F-41DD-B935-042AC08F8D87@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <821fbc26-162f-13cd-904a-9387407cdb3d@krutt.org>

mmmm, while on the other hand you can put something extra on your 
website and it can be installable as a webapp on your mobile, so that it 
becomes faster than ever to load.

https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps

Op 7-10-2019 om 18:18 schreef Bob Sneidar via use-livecode:
> Because Apple is no longer going to accept apps that are nothing more than a web portal.
>
>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 05:47 , R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
>> everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I develop
>> even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same can be
>> done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page interface, but do
>> people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for single page
>> interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Mon Oct  7 15:35:00 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:35:00 +0200
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <821fbc26-162f-13cd-904a-9387407cdb3d@krutt.org>
References: <CAG1Q0g97QSJ=2r7g6Npro3JDZE5HOhjkPGrbb_fgrOBo_nQ+zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <AA6A19F6-C49F-41DD-B935-042AC08F8D87@iotecdigital.com>
 <821fbc26-162f-13cd-904a-9387407cdb3d@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <a83da5d0-dc56-32b5-2ecf-45239de647bb@krutt.org>

by the way scroll a bit down, you'll read: 53% of the website visitors 
will click away if it does not load within 3 seconds.

Think again about the html5 export...too slow to load.

Then you are better off writing a html page yourself and add html5 stuff 
in it, mucho faster


Op 7-10-2019 om 21:31 schreef JJS via use-livecode:
> mmmm, while on the other hand you can put something extra on your 
> website and it can be installable as a webapp on your mobile, so that 
> it becomes faster than ever to load.
>
> https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps
>
> Op 7-10-2019 om 18:18 schreef Bob Sneidar via use-livecode:
>> Because Apple is no longer going to accept apps that are nothing more 
>> than a web portal.
>>
>>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 05:47 , R.H. via use-livecode 
>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
>>> everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I develop
>>> even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same 
>>> can be
>>> done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page interface, 
>>> but do
>>> people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for single 
>>> page
>>> interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Mon Oct  7 15:41:14 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:41:14 +0200
Subject: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.
In-Reply-To: <073B224C-02DF-43EE-B076-0F67B8BEA564@swcp.com>
References: <26D99EC9-C293-4060-819C-34FE8362684D@iotecdigital.com>
 <ba63ddcc-f8ca-730f-8cb9-d675a9261bc8@pair.com>
 <F8C71E43-025F-4BAF-9276-CA1EE60CB79A@swcp.com>
 <FBE062A7-5791-438F-BEAF-4BF965917D6A@krutt.org>
 <073B224C-02DF-43EE-B076-0F67B8BEA564@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <c697b9bd-0e67-29f2-ad52-461e9488ac8d@krutt.org>

thx Dsc!

Op 6-10-2019 om 22:22 schreef dsc--- via use-livecode:
> I tend to use a lot of whitespace in layout and keep label fields and text buttons long.
>
> And, since I am often the LiveCode programmer's programmer, building libraries & LCB extensions and such, I sometimes just throw controls onto the card. (Which might contribute to the notion that Dar can't GUI.)
>
> Platform, window size, display size, and font availability are all in the environment. Perhaps these can be handled in a uniform manner as one might do a stack resize.
>
> If I need to, I use raw primitive controls and use appropriate graphics.
>
> So, to address the question, for simple stacks, I design for Mac and adjust for Windows.
>
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.
>>
>> Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>>> The original question mentioned testing and debugging.
>>>
>>> I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>>> develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>>> using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>>>
>>> It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>>> Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>>> prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>>> currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>>>
>>> The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>>> however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>>> to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>>> one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>>> emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>>>
>>> So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>>> but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>>> want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>>> powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>>> someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>>> monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>>> no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>>> Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>>> something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>>> everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>>> with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>>>
>>> In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>>>
>>> And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>>> old guys.
>>>
>>> As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>>> want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>>> good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>>> Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>>> reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>>> display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>>> No searching for switches, routers and cables.
>>>
>>> Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>>> a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>>> Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>>> MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>>> but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>>> anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>>>
>>> I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>>> machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>>> different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>>> the first year, $800 for subsequent.
>>>
>>> Dar
>>> Mad Scientist
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>>> specs for Windows Development computer"
>>>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>>> Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>>> ...)
>>>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>>> Windows only" experience:
>>>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>>> seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>>> antivirus, and similar results.
>>>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>>> hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>>> more....
>>>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>>> bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>>> i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>>>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>>> extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>>> overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>>> budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>>>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>>> various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>>> performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
>>> remove the ball and chains.
>>>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,
>>> which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
>>> influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
>>> Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
>>> habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
>>> years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
>>> proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
>>> realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
>>> operating systems.
>>>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing
>>> for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
>>> here! :)
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Curry Kenworthy
>>>>
>>>> Custom Software Development
>>>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>>>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>>>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> -- 
>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Oct  7 16:02:32 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:02:32 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycPPoa2VFO9+iqwuiyZPPdscmiYqeHX-J0z4C5x0JdVXrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>
 <6606c386-1c95-b31e-ee8a-70ef124f847c@gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPPoa2VFO9+iqwuiyZPPdscmiYqeHX-J0z4C5x0JdVXrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12ebb9b3-8d6f-4e08-12f7-43b38d93a048@sonic.net>

On 10/7/19 7:57 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:
> there isn't any reason why bug bounties have to all go to the mothership.
> you're (for lack of a better word) kickstarting a bug fix.  it's a bounty.
> it should go to the person who delivers the fix, the bounty hunter.

Um, no. You'd be giving money to someone in the hopes that enough others 
will also do the same to reach the goal required to attempt to fix the 
bug. But you're charged whether or not the goal is reached. And whether 
or not the bug actually gets fixed. It's a bad fit, and the only way I'd 
ever put money into this kind of scheme is once enough other fools have 
done so and the goal has been met *and* I think there's a reasonable 
chance the bug might get fixed in a timely manner.

Look at the number of folks who complain about not having feature x from 
the LC Kickstarter campaign, where there was explicitly no guarantee of 
features actually appearing. Now extrapolate to a campaign where you end 
up paying into a scheme whether or not anything actually materializes.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Mon Oct  7 16:42:09 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:42:09 +0300
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <12ebb9b3-8d6f-4e08-12f7-43b38d93a048@sonic.net>
References: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>
 <6606c386-1c95-b31e-ee8a-70ef124f847c@gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPPoa2VFO9+iqwuiyZPPdscmiYqeHX-J0z4C5x0JdVXrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <12ebb9b3-8d6f-4e08-12f7-43b38d93a048@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <1afa8f72-3fd4-03c3-81a1-28cef02bb1a9@gmail.com>

Cripes . . . this is turning out to be a right can of worms . . . and, 
obviously, there is an awful lot of reluctance
to sponsor/donate for bug fixes. Let me attempt to summarise so far:

1. people feel that the company responsible for producing some software 
should bear full
responsibility for fixing bugs.

Mind you, if that were the case I don't think there would be anyone 
developing any software anywhere at all.

2. People feel that "another: KickStarter 'thing' for bugfixes might end 
up as a blackhole swallowing
their moolah with no guarantee of getting what they have stumped up 
their hard earned bucks for.

Well . . . Yes . . . I can see both those points of view as perfectly 
valid . . .

But the simple fact is, like it or not, LiveCode has got some 
long-standing bugs that at least some people
feel are show-stoppers, and the people at LiveCode Central do not seem 
to be able to do much about them:

Why?

Well; here are a few possible reasons:

1. They have "bitten of more than they can chew" insofar that they have 
committed themselves to such a lot of work in terms of continuing 
development they just don't have the time or resources to get down to 
the bugs.

[This is why I suggested that LiveCode Central might like to consider 
taking a period "off" their continuing
development to retrench and devote that period of time to attacking 
those bugs - this, of course,
presupposes they all have sufficient funds to put food in their fridges.]

2. They are undermanned.

3. They are underfunded.

4. They expected more "outside help" after they set up their Open Source 
version.

And #2, #3 and #4 might be sides of the same coin.

And if "We" don't do something about those bugs they may languish there 
forever.

Now an idea, which may be about as bonkers as most of my other ideas, is 
this:

Over on the bug-reporting system (or linked to it) have a system where a 
price is attached to "the head" of the most pernicious bugs. Individuals 
would be then welcome to donate funds to specific bugs, and once the price
has been raised other individuals would be welcome to attempt to fix the 
bug, for which, if they can properly
demonstrate they have fixed it, they get the bounty.

There would, of necessity, need to be an overseer of this whole project.

On 7.10.19 23:02, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> On 10/7/19 7:57 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:
>> there isn't any reason why bug bounties have to all go to the 
>> mothership.
>> you're (for lack of a better word) kickstarting a bug fix.? it's a 
>> bounty.
>> it should go to the person who delivers the fix, the bounty hunter.
>
> Um, no. You'd be giving money to someone in the hopes that enough 
> others will also do the same to reach the goal required to attempt to 
> fix the bug. But you're charged whether or not the goal is reached. 
> And whether or not the bug actually gets fixed. It's a bad fit, and 
> the only way I'd ever put money into this kind of scheme is once 
> enough other fools have done so and the goal has been met *and* I 
> think there's a reasonable chance the bug might get fixed in a timely 
> manner.
>
> Look at the number of folks who complain about not having feature x 
> from the LC Kickstarter campaign, where there was explicitly no 
> guarantee of features actually appearing. Now extrapolate to a 
> campaign where you end up paying into a scheme whether or not anything 
> actually materializes.
>




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct  7 16:45:10 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 20:45:10 +0000
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <1afa8f72-3fd4-03c3-81a1-28cef02bb1a9@gmail.com>
References: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>
 <6606c386-1c95-b31e-ee8a-70ef124f847c@gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPPoa2VFO9+iqwuiyZPPdscmiYqeHX-J0z4C5x0JdVXrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <12ebb9b3-8d6f-4e08-12f7-43b38d93a048@sonic.net>
 <1afa8f72-3fd4-03c3-81a1-28cef02bb1a9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>



> On Oct 7, 2019, at 13:42 , Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 1. people feel that the company responsible for producing some software should bear full
> responsibility for fixing bugs.
> 
> Mind you, if that were the case I don't think there would be anyone developing any software anywhere at all.

Really? What other software company shares the burden of bug fixing with it's clientele?

Bob S




From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Mon Oct  7 17:28:14 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 17:28:14 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <12ebb9b3-8d6f-4e08-12f7-43b38d93a048@sonic.net>
References: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>
 <6606c386-1c95-b31e-ee8a-70ef124f847c@gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPPoa2VFO9+iqwuiyZPPdscmiYqeHX-J0z4C5x0JdVXrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <12ebb9b3-8d6f-4e08-12f7-43b38d93a048@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <CADCoycOvbyzds6zDzo1RUJ7F3wzW3qcpvjjBq0hUGsq+dz_ZdA@mail.gmail.com>

Huh?  I'm suggesting that this be taken the direction of a bounty.


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct  7 18:56:27 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:56:27 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <12ba2277-de2e-83c1-a7be-9aa733a13eee@fourthworld.com>

Bob Sneidar wrote:

 > What other software company shares the burden of bug fixing with
 > it's clientele?


Bug  bounties are pretty common.

https://www.guru99.com/bug-bounty-programs.html

https://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/features/bug-bounty-hunters-and-the-companies-that-pay-them-820636

https://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/features/bug-bounty-hunters-and-the-companies-that-pay-them-820636

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct  7 19:04:05 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:04:05 +0000
Subject: OT: Widgets - just a bit of nonsense
In-Reply-To: <6BC95A58-C661-4D3E-85DE-BADE2FBEF0FC@mac.com>
References: <6BC95A58-C661-4D3E-85DE-BADE2FBEF0FC@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A6FF2607-2061-4E8F-9C18-C19FE09A821C@iotecdigital.com>

Interesting life. Check out the wiki. 

Bob S


> On Oct 7, 2019, at 04:33 , Graham Samuel via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> It so happens that I?m digitising Roald Dahl?s first book, written when he was still a Flight Lieutenant in the Royal Air Force, and I came across this. Forgive any lack of political correctness - it was a very long time ago:
> 
>> ?I've just found a nest of widgets,? he said, and looked around in triumph. 
>> ?Widgets?? said Stuffy. ?Widgets? Never heard of them!? 
>> But Jamface went on. ?As I said, I've just found a nest of widgets located in the rear turret of my plane. There were twelve of them very young ones.? 
>> ?What are widgets?" asked Gus. 
>> ?It's very simple,? said Jamface. ?Widgets are the young of gremlins and fifinellas. No one knows until they grow up whether they are going to turn into males or females, but it's usually males; in each nest of twelve widgets only one will eventually turn into a fifinella.? 
> 
> Back to work?
> 
> Graham


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct  7 19:08:44 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:08:44 +0000
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <12ba2277-de2e-83c1-a7be-9aa733a13eee@fourthworld.com>
References: <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>
 <12ba2277-de2e-83c1-a7be-9aa733a13eee@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <D3105037-602A-4BFB-9420-94A9D50E6106@iotecdigital.com>

Interesting, but these are professional developers, right? Not common end users. I'm just taken aback by the notion that no one would ever develop software again if they had to fix all the bugs themselves. 

Bob S


> On Oct 7, 2019, at 15:56 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Bob Sneidar wrote:
> 
> > What other software company shares the burden of bug fixing with
> > it's clientele?
> 
> 
> Bug  bounties are pretty common.




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct  7 19:27:41 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:27:41 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <D3105037-602A-4BFB-9420-94A9D50E6106@iotecdigital.com>
References: <D3105037-602A-4BFB-9420-94A9D50E6106@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <8ecb7934-af4a-be3e-1604-edb1cc8a80a0@fourthworld.com>

Bob Sneidar wrote:
 >> On Oct 7, 2019, at 15:56 , Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >>
 >> Bug  bounties are pretty common.
 >
 > Interesting, but these are professional developers, right? Not common
 > end users.

LiveCode is a developer tool. We use it to make software for end-users.

A lot of discussion around LC's business is based around the world of 
software that was prevalent when most of us got started.  Back in the 
'90s most development tools were proprietary, and open source was just 
getting started.  Indeed, in the first half of the '90s there were very 
few viable open source projects.  Nearly everything, even dev tools, 
were proprietary.

That world is gone.

In the 21st century, while proprietary software still thrives in 
consumer segments, infrastructure and dev tools are predominantly open 
source.

LiveCode is no exception: More than 3/4 of its users are using the 
GPL-governed Community Edition.

 From an early-90s perspective, we can think of LC as a proprietary 
product that offers an open source option for evangelism.

But in terms of actual usage in the here-and-now, LC is more accurately 
an open source project in which a subset of the development costs are 
subsidized by an optional proprietary license.

New world, new ways....

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au  Mon Oct  7 19:31:40 2019
From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:31:40 +0000
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <12ba2277-de2e-83c1-a7be-9aa733a13eee@fourthworld.com>
References: <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>
 <12ba2277-de2e-83c1-a7be-9aa733a13eee@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <B32AF754-1D13-4897-A31B-13EDEC6E32E7@unimelb.edu.au>

These seem to be bounties for finding critical (mostly security-related) bugs rather than fixing them - hard to see large tech companies outsourcing their security fixes.

We already have an established system for reporting bugs, and LC are actively attending to fixing some/most of them. The problem (real or perceived) seems to be that either some bugs are left unattended for too long, or appear to attract such a low priority that they are effectively abandoned. Maybe a bounty system could work if LC were prepared to tag bugs all bugs with a priority level, with each level having an estimated fix time associated with it. This would provide us (as potential clients of bounty hunters) with a semi-objective indication of whether it was worth stumping up some cash for a quick fix or simply waiting for LC to act. More work for LC though, tagging bugs and updating those tags fairly regularly.

Terry...

?On 8/10/19, 9:57 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Bob Sneidar wrote:
    
     > What other software company shares the burden of bug fixing with
     > it's clientele?
    
    
    Bug  bounties are pretty common.
    
    https://www.guru99.com/bug-bounty-programs.html
    
    https://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/features/bug-bounty-hunters-and-the-companies-that-pay-them-820636
    
    https://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/features/bug-bounty-hunters-and-the-companies-that-pay-them-820636
    
    -- 
      Richard Gaskin
      Fourth World Systems
      Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
      ____________________________________________________________________
      Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    
    


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct  7 19:49:53 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:49:53 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <B32AF754-1D13-4897-A31B-13EDEC6E32E7@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <B32AF754-1D13-4897-A31B-13EDEC6E32E7@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <784b0f7c-c54c-5e06-aa02-3f38539e20f6@fourthworld.com>

Terry Judd wrote:

 > These seem to be bounties for finding critical (mostly security-
 > related) bugs rather than fixing them - hard to see large tech
 > companies outsourcing their security fixes.

Yes, probably not the best examples.  I could dig up others, but 
sometimes I feel like there would still be some way to pick it apart, 
and I'm not interested in spending my afternoon chasing sea lions.

The bottom line is the bottom line: the cost of work needed to support 
the feature set across the full range of supported platforms AND also 
attempt to be the only player with a million-line code base that's 
bug-free is greater than the revenue from the slender of subset of 
people who subsidize that work through proprietary licensing.

We can ask for anything, but wishing alone doesn't make it so.

The other day I stood on my roof and demanded an end to world hunger. 
When I got down the ladder I was still in a world where half of humanity 
goes to bed hungry every day. So instead I carry snacks on my bike, and 
when I'm out I give an apple or an orange to homeless people I meet. 
I'm not able to solve the global problem, but I can help alleviate it 
locally.

A sizable percentage of LC's bugs are in the IDE, written in the same 
language we all use.  Any of us could fix them, given the time.

And there's the rub: "given the time".

Time constraints are a key factor with most human endeavors.

Engine fixes will require something more, C++ skills not common in our 
scripting community.  The company pays for most of those, and once in a 
while folks in the community will pay for a fix or a feature here and there.

Everyone does what they can to have what they want.

It's not the most exotic notion in the world for people who want 
something to gather resources needed to have it.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Oct  7 20:01:02 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 17:01:02 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <B32AF754-1D13-4897-A31B-13EDEC6E32E7@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>
 <12ba2277-de2e-83c1-a7be-9aa733a13eee@fourthworld.com>
 <B32AF754-1D13-4897-A31B-13EDEC6E32E7@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <6a076245-5dfc-4a75-f567-698f8b1c3683@sonic.net>

On 10/7/19 4:31 PM, Terry Judd via use-livecode wrote:
> These seem to be bounties for finding critical (mostly security-related) bugs rather than fixing them - hard to see large tech companies outsourcing their security fixes.

You'd have to separate proprietary from FOSS products here. One of the 
primary drivers of open-source software is that the innards are there 
for you to poke around in and fix. It's a community effort based on 
making the product better for everyone. If you find a bug, submit a 
patch that fixes it. That becomes part of the core and everybody's happy.

A reason that security bugs are reported often on proprietary software 
is that they're relatively easy to spot without having access to the 
source code. But this is more on the level of "here's the symptom, 
here's what you should do to fix it, now it's up to you to fix".

> 
> We already have an established system for reporting bugs, and LC are actively attending to fixing some/most of them. The problem (real or perceived) seems to be that either some bugs are left unattended for too long, or appear to attract such a low priority that they are effectively abandoned. Maybe a bounty system could work if LC were prepared to tag bugs all bugs with a priority level, with each level having an estimated fix time associated with it. This would provide us (as potential clients of bounty hunters) with a semi-objective indication of whether it was worth stumping up some cash for a quick fix or simply waiting for LC to act. More work for LC though, tagging bugs and updating those tags fairly regularly.

Back in the old days LC/RR had a voting system on bugzilla. You had five 
votes you could allocate to bug reports, and this gave an indication of 
how many people were affected by a given bug. Since you have a limited 
number of votes, you get to select your Top Five - if a bug no longer 
affects you as much you can rescind that vote and allocate it to another 
report. I think reinstating this would be part of the solution.

But there's another quantitative ranking which has to come from the 
team, and that involves both bug severity and urgency/priority. I think 
with those three vectors of information (and perhaps a fourth, an 
estimate of the amount of work required to address the bug; although 
I've always hated to have to estimate that and end up being wildly 
optimistic) it might be possible to have a reasonable estimate of what 
it would take to get a given bug fixed.

My two centavos for the day.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Oct  7 20:09:43 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 17:09:43 -0700
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <16da70d2aa8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
 <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <44c99243-69fa-34b8-0f65-bccf90610de3@sonic.net>
 <16da70d2aa8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <7462cb65-efad-beee-ec40-310cc3532c17@sonic.net>

On 10/7/19 9:28 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> I don't have a current example, it happened when I was working on 
> Swami's project which is almost entirely script-only stacks. I had to 
> use BBEdit to search folders to find a handler definition.

So you're editing a script in the SE and it's got a reference to a 
command that's in a script-only stack that isn't in memory?

Based on some of B's other posts, I'd guess that the script has the line 
"start using stack xyz" but you're just editing the script and it hasn't 
been put into play yet, so the "start using" command hasn't been 
invoked. That makes sense to me, and I wouldn't expect the definition to 
be found. If this is the case, is there a reason to invoke "start using" 
instead of making the script a behavior?

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au  Mon Oct  7 20:21:05 2019
From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:21:05 +0000
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <6a076245-5dfc-4a75-f567-698f8b1c3683@sonic.net>
References: <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>
 <12ba2277-de2e-83c1-a7be-9aa733a13eee@fourthworld.com>
 <B32AF754-1D13-4897-A31B-13EDEC6E32E7@unimelb.edu.au>
 <6a076245-5dfc-4a75-f567-698f8b1c3683@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>

On 8/10/19, 11:02 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Wieder via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    
    Back in the old days LC/RR had a voting system on bugzilla. You had five 
    votes you could allocate to bug reports, and this gave an indication of 
    how many people were affected by a given bug. Since you have a limited 
    number of votes, you get to select your Top Five - if a bug no longer 
    affects you as much you can rescind that vote and allocate it to another 
    report. I think reinstating this would be part of the solution.
    
    But there's another quantitative ranking which has to come from the 
    team, and that involves both bug severity and urgency/priority. I think 
    with those three vectors of information (and perhaps a fourth, an 
    estimate of the amount of work required to address the bug; although 
    I've always hated to have to estimate that and end up being wildly 
    optimistic) it might be possible to have a reasonable estimate of what 
    it would take to get a given bug fixed.
    
I'd totally forgotten about the Bugzilla voting system. I liked that approach as well and agree that bringing it back could help both us and LC to prioritise fixes. I like your other suggestions as well. Hopefully the additional workload (for LC) to implement them would be manageable though and wouldn't place unnecessary additional strain on their bug fixing efforts ;)

Terry...
 


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct  8 01:13:02 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 22:13:02 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>

Terry Judd wrote:

 > I'd totally forgotten about the Bugzilla voting system. I liked that
 > approach as well and agree that bringing it back could help both us
 > and LC to prioritise fixes.

Voting is one of those things that has a certain ring of rightness about 
it (who doesn't love democracy?), and it's technically easy to do - so 
why not?

It turns out that people are much more complicated than the systems we 
create. :)

I had extensive discussion about the Bugzilla voting system with Kevin, 
Mark Waddingham, and others there at LiveCode Ltd., in response to the 
reactions many members of our community (including yours truly) 
expressed when the voting was removed from the bug DB.

What I learned was that although it seems like a good idea, in practice 
it winds up being a less useful indicator of the "importance" of a bug 
than one might intuitively think.

In dry terms, one of the issues with it is that it conflates two very 
different signals: one for the severity of a bug to the individual 
experiencing it, and another for the number of people affected by the bug.

In practice, these are some of how it played out:

If I happen to feel a bug is super important, but five others think it's 
merely worth reporting but isn't shutting down their work, my single 
five-vote click doubles the number of votes.  What does that mean?

We know it doesn't mean ten people find it unimportant.  And it doesn't 
mean that two people find it extremely important.

To fully understand exactly what a given tally score means requires 
looking at the vote distribution, and also at the individual voters and 
the details of their comments in the report.

So if I feel like casting five votes against it there's no way to know 
whether I'm actually having an urgent need, or just having a mood to 
make a point about the age of the report, or any number of things. I 
might have also contributed a comment or example which could explain my 
intention, or no further information at all.

And from time to time we may have a bug that's really critical, but so 
far seen by fewer people.  Such a report may have far fewer votes than 
one that has little harmful effect but has been seen more frequently.

And then there are the times one of us will get particularly incensed 
about a pet issue (some of you may recall times I've done this myself), 
and we rant about it here and encourage votes for the pet issue.  I'm 
sure some of those votes were people who actually experienced the issue, 
but I'm equally sure some of those were just friendly people being 
supportive, and not votes that would have arrived there organically 
without the politicking.

Give it some time and each of us can imagine other scenarios that muddy 
the clarity of that vote signal.

By the time a developer working on the bug looks at the various aspects 
relevant to understanding what the vote tally really means, there's 
enough familiarity with the details that an assessment of priority can 
be made just as easily without it.


There remains at least one element which could loosely be seen as a sort 
of voting: a bug's CC list.

Usually an address will wind up there after that person has experienced 
the bug, searched the DB for it, and found that it had been reported. 
When that happens organically, the number of people subscribing to a bug 
can be a useful addition that, with the other details of the report, 
help the team evaluate priority.

And being a single value per user, it's a single signal rather than a 
conflation of two different signals as the old form with multiple votes 
did, so it's more immediately clear what it's signifying.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  LiveCode Community Liaison



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Tue Oct  8 01:32:57 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:32:57 -0500
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>
References: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>
 <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <16da9db2f28.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

I think the politicking was a big factor in killing the voting system. I 
remember many times when people would post to the list, urging others to 
cast a vote for an issue so it would rise to the top. Those voters may 
never have seen the bug but it sounded important and they had a vote or two 
to spare.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 8, 2019 12:15:23 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Terry Judd wrote:
>
> > I'd totally forgotten about the Bugzilla voting system. I liked that
> > approach as well and agree that bringing it back could help both us
> > and LC to prioritise fixes.
>
> Voting is one of those things that has a certain ring of rightness about
> it (who doesn't love democracy?), and it's technically easy to do - so
> why not?
>
> It turns out that people are much more complicated than the systems we
> create. :)
>
> I had extensive discussion about the Bugzilla voting system with Kevin,
> Mark Waddingham, and others there at LiveCode Ltd., in response to the
> reactions many members of our community (including yours truly)
> expressed when the voting was removed from the bug DB.
>
> What I learned was that although it seems like a good idea, in practice
> it winds up being a less useful indicator of the "importance" of a bug
> than one might intuitively think.
>
> In dry terms, one of the issues with it is that it conflates two very
> different signals: one for the severity of a bug to the individual
> experiencing it, and another for the number of people affected by the bug.
>
> In practice, these are some of how it played out:
>
> If I happen to feel a bug is super important, but five others think it's
> merely worth reporting but isn't shutting down their work, my single
> five-vote click doubles the number of votes.  What does that mean?
>
> We know it doesn't mean ten people find it unimportant.  And it doesn't
> mean that two people find it extremely important.
>
> To fully understand exactly what a given tally score means requires
> looking at the vote distribution, and also at the individual voters and
> the details of their comments in the report.
>
> So if I feel like casting five votes against it there's no way to know
> whether I'm actually having an urgent need, or just having a mood to
> make a point about the age of the report, or any number of things. I
> might have also contributed a comment or example which could explain my
> intention, or no further information at all.
>
> And from time to time we may have a bug that's really critical, but so
> far seen by fewer people.  Such a report may have far fewer votes than
> one that has little harmful effect but has been seen more frequently.
>
> And then there are the times one of us will get particularly incensed
> about a pet issue (some of you may recall times I've done this myself),
> and we rant about it here and encourage votes for the pet issue.  I'm
> sure some of those votes were people who actually experienced the issue,
> but I'm equally sure some of those were just friendly people being
> supportive, and not votes that would have arrived there organically
> without the politicking.
>
> Give it some time and each of us can imagine other scenarios that muddy
> the clarity of that vote signal.
>
> By the time a developer working on the bug looks at the various aspects
> relevant to understanding what the vote tally really means, there's
> enough familiarity with the details that an assessment of priority can
> be made just as easily without it.
>
>
> There remains at least one element which could loosely be seen as a sort
> of voting: a bug's CC list.
>
> Usually an address will wind up there after that person has experienced
> the bug, searched the DB for it, and found that it had been reported.
> When that happens organically, the number of people subscribing to a bug
> can be a useful addition that, with the other details of the report,
> help the team evaluate priority.
>
> And being a single value per user, it's a single signal rather than a
> conflation of two different signals as the old form with multiple votes
> did, so it's more immediately clear what it's signifying.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  LiveCode Community Liaison
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Tue Oct  8 01:37:26 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:37:26 -0500
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <7462cb65-efad-beee-ec40-310cc3532c17@sonic.net>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
 <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <44c99243-69fa-34b8-0f65-bccf90610de3@sonic.net>
 <16da70d2aa8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <7462cb65-efad-beee-ec40-310cc3532c17@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <16da9df49f0.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

When I was working on the project, all the scripts were put in use when the 
app launched and they were all listed in the in-use pane in the message 
box. It was a huge list, too. I wonder if that matters.

BR would know more about how it's working now.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 7, 2019 7:11:30 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 10/7/19 9:28 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> I don't have a current example, it happened when I was working on
>> Swami's project which is almost entirely script-only stacks. I had to
>> use BBEdit to search folders to find a handler definition.
>
> So you're editing a script in the SE and it's got a reference to a
> command that's in a script-only stack that isn't in memory?
>
> Based on some of B's other posts, I'd guess that the script has the line
> "start using stack xyz" but you're just editing the script and it hasn't
> been put into play yet, so the "start using" command hasn't been
> invoked. That makes sense to me, and I wouldn't expect the definition to
> be found. If this is the case, is there a reason to invoke "start using"
> instead of making the script a behavior?
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au  Tue Oct  8 02:15:23 2019
From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 06:15:23 +0000
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <16da9db2f28.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>
 <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>
 <16da9db2f28.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <9AFB34C0-27D0-4A22-B19E-D5510FB7CB58@unimelb.edu.au>

I feel like there are plenty of ways that a point system that avoids some of these issues with the previous one could be implemented - fewer total votes per person, single votes per bug only, no or reduced value votes for community users, forced re-allocation of votes on a regular basis...

Yep, comments are a useful measure too - give them a value as well, maybe even allow someone who has used up all their votes to 'mine' some new ones that way - I reckon it shows they are engaged and contributing.

Terry...

?On 8/10/19, 4:34 pm, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    I think the politicking was a big factor in killing the voting system. I 
    remember many times when people would post to the list, urging others to 
    cast a vote for an issue so it would rise to the top. Those voters may 
    never have seen the bug but it sounded important and they had a vote or two 
    to spare.
    
    --
    Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
    HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
    On October 8, 2019 12:15:23 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
    <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    
    > Terry Judd wrote:
    >
    > > I'd totally forgotten about the Bugzilla voting system. I liked that
    > > approach as well and agree that bringing it back could help both us
    > > and LC to prioritise fixes.
    >
    > Voting is one of those things that has a certain ring of rightness about
    > it (who doesn't love democracy?), and it's technically easy to do - so
    > why not?
    >
    > It turns out that people are much more complicated than the systems we
    > create. :)
    >
    > I had extensive discussion about the Bugzilla voting system with Kevin,
    > Mark Waddingham, and others there at LiveCode Ltd., in response to the
    > reactions many members of our community (including yours truly)
    > expressed when the voting was removed from the bug DB.
    >
    > What I learned was that although it seems like a good idea, in practice
    > it winds up being a less useful indicator of the "importance" of a bug
    > than one might intuitively think.
    >
    > In dry terms, one of the issues with it is that it conflates two very
    > different signals: one for the severity of a bug to the individual
    > experiencing it, and another for the number of people affected by the bug.
    >
    > In practice, these are some of how it played out:
    >
    > If I happen to feel a bug is super important, but five others think it's
    > merely worth reporting but isn't shutting down their work, my single
    > five-vote click doubles the number of votes.  What does that mean?
    >
    > We know it doesn't mean ten people find it unimportant.  And it doesn't
    > mean that two people find it extremely important.
    >
    > To fully understand exactly what a given tally score means requires
    > looking at the vote distribution, and also at the individual voters and
    > the details of their comments in the report.
    >
    > So if I feel like casting five votes against it there's no way to know
    > whether I'm actually having an urgent need, or just having a mood to
    > make a point about the age of the report, or any number of things. I
    > might have also contributed a comment or example which could explain my
    > intention, or no further information at all.
    >
    > And from time to time we may have a bug that's really critical, but so
    > far seen by fewer people.  Such a report may have far fewer votes than
    > one that has little harmful effect but has been seen more frequently.
    >
    > And then there are the times one of us will get particularly incensed
    > about a pet issue (some of you may recall times I've done this myself),
    > and we rant about it here and encourage votes for the pet issue.  I'm
    > sure some of those votes were people who actually experienced the issue,
    > but I'm equally sure some of those were just friendly people being
    > supportive, and not votes that would have arrived there organically
    > without the politicking.
    >
    > Give it some time and each of us can imagine other scenarios that muddy
    > the clarity of that vote signal.
    >
    > By the time a developer working on the bug looks at the various aspects
    > relevant to understanding what the vote tally really means, there's
    > enough familiarity with the details that an assessment of priority can
    > be made just as easily without it.
    >
    >
    > There remains at least one element which could loosely be seen as a sort
    > of voting: a bug's CC list.
    >
    > Usually an address will wind up there after that person has experienced
    > the bug, searched the DB for it, and found that it had been reported.
    > When that happens organically, the number of people subscribing to a bug
    > can be a useful addition that, with the other details of the report,
    > help the team evaluate priority.
    >
    > And being a single value per user, it's a single signal rather than a
    > conflation of two different signals as the old form with multiple votes
    > did, so it's more immediately clear what it's signifying.
    >
    > --
    >  Richard Gaskin
    >  LiveCode Community Liaison



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Tue Oct  8 02:39:45 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:39:45 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>
References: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>
 <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <a1467ec4-796c-79cc-c64a-e151c8ca58b9@sonic.net>

On 10/7/19 10:13 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

 > I had extensive discussion about the Bugzilla voting system with 
Kevin, Mark Waddingham, and others there at LiveCode Ltd., in response 
to the reactions many members of our community (including yours truly) 
expressed when the voting was removed from the bug DB.
 >
 > What I learned was that although it seems like a good idea, in 
practice it winds up being a less useful indicator of the "importance" 
of a bug than one might intuitively think.
 >
 > In dry terms, one of the issues with it is that it conflates two very 
different signals: one for the severity of a bug to the individual 
experiencing it, and another for the number of people affected by the bug.

Well, yes and no. But that's why I was suggesting that the severity of a 
bug be determined by the team, and not by a bug report's popularity. The 
CC field is somewhat useful, but nobody ever removes themselves from the 
field (is that even possible?), and stale votes can skew the benefits of 
the quantitative effects.

Earlier I avoided commenting on the politicking and grandstanding issues 
concerning voting. There are interesting arguments around democracy and 
power in the Federalist Papers. For a voting framework we could do worse 
than adopt Scott Raney's proxyfor.me.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 04:31:01 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 11:31:01 +0300
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <d83e7260-3b31-c879-14bd-bc369ed1dd85@pair.com>
 <6606c386-1c95-b31e-ee8a-70ef124f847c@gmail.com>
 <CADCoycPPoa2VFO9+iqwuiyZPPdscmiYqeHX-J0z4C5x0JdVXrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <12ebb9b3-8d6f-4e08-12f7-43b38d93a048@sonic.net>
 <1afa8f72-3fd4-03c3-81a1-28cef02bb1a9@gmail.com>
 <261C0F7D-5A11-4AA8-9733-06CF6513648B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <a11ee759-f317-89d7-f450-4eeeaabfe076@gmail.com>

OK: I really need to clarify what I wrote there . . .

"if that were the case . . ."

What I meant is that, as far as I can see (pace Microsoft, Apple, et 
al), software developers
release versions "into the wild" knowing that the chances of them being 
100% bug-free is practically nil,
and relying on end-users to spot those bugs and report back.

Many long years ago (about 18) I worked on a CD about Music genres for 
Scottish schools, and my boss
said he could not be bothered with beta testing because it would cost 
too much money.

When the final thing (A Runtime Revolution standalone) had been burnt to 
disk he (my boss) found it contained
one insignificant bug: he wasted an awful lot of time ranting at me. 
When he then decided to take me to
court (!) he consulted a lawyer who laughed in his face and stated that 
a whole CD's worth of software with
only 1 bug was nothing short of a miracle.

What the chap should have done is come back to me with details of the 
bug so it could have been sorted out. What he actually did (!) was dump 
all the CDs and go to another company in Edinburgh who "re-did" the whole
thing with MacroMedia Director that ended up crashing computers. 
Obviously, as his wife told me, a rather slow learner.

Of course, of course, of course things would have been better had there 
been no bugs . . .

Now there are companies who "jump on bugs" just as soon as end-users 
report them, and there are those
who don't: and most software developers probably fall somewhere in between.

"Sharing the burden" depends whether or not you want to buy into the 
Open Source story or the Commercial one:

The Open Source story is based on a view of the world where everyone is 
into caring-and-sharing in a
big hearted sort of way and is prepared to "pay" for 'free' software by 
pitching into to do stuff such as
fixing bugs.

The Commercial story is based on a world view where customers pay and 
developers deliver, and customers
have all sorts of rights of redress if they don't get what they have 
paid for.

The slight problem is that LiveCode is currently taking part in both 
stories simultaneously, and it seems
that none of the end-users are completely convinced of the validity of 
either story.

On 7.10.19 23:45, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> On Oct 7, 2019, at 13:42 , Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> 1. people feel that the company responsible for producing some software should bear full
>> responsibility for fixing bugs.
>>
>> Mind you, if that were the case I don't think there would be anyone developing any software anywhere at all.
> Really? What other software company shares the burden of bug fixing with it's clientele?
>
> Bob S
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 04:35:50 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 11:35:50 +0300
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <a1467ec4-796c-79cc-c64a-e151c8ca58b9@sonic.net>
References: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>
 <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>
 <a1467ec4-796c-79cc-c64a-e151c8ca58b9@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <25c46321-dac9-0568-e86b-774f1f8bc6fb@gmail.com>

"the severity of a bug be determined by the team"

Presumably by "the team" you mean LiveCode Central?

Somewhere in this discussion there was the idea that, perhaps, "the 
team" already had so
much on their plate that both determining the severity of bugs and 
sorting them out
were handled by people outwith "the team."

On 8.10.19 9:39, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> On 10/7/19 10:13 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > I had extensive discussion about the Bugzilla voting system with 
> Kevin, Mark Waddingham, and others there at LiveCode Ltd., in response 
> to the reactions many members of our community (including yours truly) 
> expressed when the voting was removed from the bug DB.
> >
> > What I learned was that although it seems like a good idea, in 
> practice it winds up being a less useful indicator of the "importance" 
> of a bug than one might intuitively think.
> >
> > In dry terms, one of the issues with it is that it conflates two 
> very different signals: one for the severity of a bug to the 
> individual experiencing it, and another for the number of people 
> affected by the bug.
>
> Well, yes and no. But that's why I was suggesting that the severity of 
> a bug be determined by the team, and not by a bug report's popularity. 
> The CC field is somewhat useful, but nobody ever removes themselves 
> from the field (is that even possible?), and stale votes can skew the 
> benefits of the quantitative effects.
>
> Earlier I avoided commenting on the politicking and grandstanding 
> issues concerning voting. There are interesting arguments around 
> democracy and power in the Federalist Papers. For a voting framework 
> we could do worse than adopt Scott Raney's proxyfor.me.
>




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 04:49:15 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 11:49:15 +0300
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <25c46321-dac9-0568-e86b-774f1f8bc6fb@gmail.com>
References: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>
 <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>
 <a1467ec4-796c-79cc-c64a-e151c8ca58b9@sonic.net>
 <25c46321-dac9-0568-e86b-774f1f8bc6fb@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <80320fce-6491-58fd-7475-7a38c820a9e8@gmail.com>



On 8.10.19 11:35, Richmond wrote:
> "the severity of a bug be determined by the team"
>
> Presumably by "the team" you mean LiveCode Central?
>
> Somewhere in this discussion there was the idea that, perhaps, "the 
> team" already had so
> much on their plate that both determining the severity of bugs and 
> sorting them out
> were handled by people outwith "the team."

Ouch: sorry: ". . . sorting them out BE handled by people . . ."

Subjunctive woes!

>
> On 8.10.19 9:39, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
>> On 10/7/19 10:13 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>>
>> > I had extensive discussion about the Bugzilla voting system with 
>> Kevin, Mark Waddingham, and others there at LiveCode Ltd., in 
>> response to the reactions many members of our community (including 
>> yours truly) expressed when the voting was removed from the bug DB.
>> >
>> > What I learned was that although it seems like a good idea, in 
>> practice it winds up being a less useful indicator of the 
>> "importance" of a bug than one might intuitively think.
>> >
>> > In dry terms, one of the issues with it is that it conflates two 
>> very different signals: one for the severity of a bug to the 
>> individual experiencing it, and another for the number of people 
>> affected by the bug.
>>
>> Well, yes and no. But that's why I was suggesting that the severity 
>> of a bug be determined by the team, and not by a bug report's 
>> popularity. The CC field is somewhat useful, but nobody ever removes 
>> themselves from the field (is that even possible?), and stale votes 
>> can skew the benefits of the quantitative effects.
>>
>> Earlier I avoided commenting on the politicking and grandstanding 
>> issues concerning voting. There are interesting arguments around 
>> democracy and power in the Federalist Papers. For a voting framework 
>> we could do worse than adopt Scott Raney's proxyfor.me.
>>
>




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 07:45:44 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 12:45:44 +0100
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <a83da5d0-dc56-32b5-2ecf-45239de647bb@krutt.org>
References: <a83da5d0-dc56-32b5-2ecf-45239de647bb@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>

That would be true for a ?page? that did not load in 3 sec but if you have a loading bar they would probably be more willing. 

While developing for HTML5 I have to post up to the website and then refresh the page to reload the whole thing which takes about 10 seconds. But even after repeated times of this it has not become uncomfortable. 

I also don?t trust this statistic of 3 seconds. Count out 3 seconds and see if that feels uncomfortable to you to give up. 53% is a ridiculous number for that level of impatience. Remember that 87.6543 % of statistics are made up.  

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 7 Oct 2019, at 20:35, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?by the way scroll a bit down, you'll read: 53% of the website visitors will click away if it does not load within 3 seconds.
> 
> Think again about the html5 export...too slow to load.
> 
> Then you are better off writing a html page yourself and add html5 stuff in it, mucho faster
> 
> 
> Op 7-10-2019 om 21:31 schreef JJS via use-livecode:
>> mmmm, while on the other hand you can put something extra on your website and it can be installable as a webapp on your mobile, so that it becomes faster than ever to load.
>> 
>> https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps
>> 
>> Op 7-10-2019 om 18:18 schreef Bob Sneidar via use-livecode:
>>> Because Apple is no longer going to accept apps that are nothing more than a web portal.
>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 05:47 , R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
>>>>> everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I develop
>>>>> even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same can be
>>>>> done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page interface, but do
>>>>> people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for single page
>>>>> interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 07:54:11 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 12:54:11 +0100
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8AA14C60-4FDA-4581-B2B5-A1351767ACDC@pidigital.co.uk>

Hehe. That statistic is served by DoubleClick. Definitely NOT to be trusted! It?s also self-serving to Google?s narrative. Click the link to drill down to the source details and Safari blocks it as untrustworthy. Chrome doesn?t but that?s because it?s made by Google!! 53% at 3 seconds indeed. That?s probably people not trusting google ads and just trying to get back off those pages they?ve been redirected to. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 8 Oct 2019, at 12:46, Pi Digital <sean at pidigital.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?That would be true for a ?page? that did not load in 3 sec but if you have a loading bar they would probably be more willing. 
> 
> While developing for HTML5 I have to post up to the website and then refresh the page to reload the whole thing which takes about 10 seconds. But even after repeated times of this it has not become uncomfortable. 
> 
> I also don?t trust this statistic of 3 seconds. Count out 3 seconds and see if that feels uncomfortable to you to give up. 53% is a ridiculous number for that level of impatience. Remember that 87.6543 % of statistics are made up.  
> 
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
> 
>>> On 7 Oct 2019, at 20:35, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?by the way scroll a bit down, you'll read: 53% of the website visitors will click away if it does not load within 3 seconds.
>> 
>> Think again about the html5 export...too slow to load.
>> 
>> Then you are better off writing a html page yourself and add html5 stuff in it, mucho faster
>> 
>> 
>> Op 7-10-2019 om 21:31 schreef JJS via use-livecode:
>>> mmmm, while on the other hand you can put something extra on your website and it can be installable as a webapp on your mobile, so that it becomes faster than ever to load.
>>> 
>>> https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps
>>> 
>>> Op 7-10-2019 om 18:18 schreef Bob Sneidar via use-livecode:
>>>> Because Apple is no longer going to accept apps that are nothing more than a web portal.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 05:47 , R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
>>>>> everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I develop
>>>>> even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same can be
>>>>> done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page interface, but do
>>>>> people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for single page
>>>>> interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Tue Oct  8 07:57:04 2019
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 13:57:04 +0200
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <a83da5d0-dc56-32b5-2ecf-45239de647bb@krutt.org>
 <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BB58E710-98C1-44E8-9C29-B1CD17525057@m-r-d.de>

For me this depends on the website. 
For new unknown websites, let?s say i found the url by a google search, i would not wait any longer than 3, maybe 5 seconds, even if a loading bar would show up.

For websites i know or if i really have an important reason to visit them, i would wait of course longer. 

But for websites i do not know, no way.

Regards,
Matthias


Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

> Am 08.10.2019 um 13:45 schrieb Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> That would be true for a ?page? that did not load in 3 sec but if you have a loading bar they would probably be more willing. 
> 
> While developing for HTML5 I have to post up to the website and then refresh the page to reload the whole thing which takes about 10 seconds. But even after repeated times of this it has not become uncomfortable. 
> 
> I also don?t trust this statistic of 3 seconds. Count out 3 seconds and see if that feels uncomfortable to you to give up. 53% is a ridiculous number for that level of impatience. Remember that 87.6543 % of statistics are made up.  
> 
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
> 
>> On 7 Oct 2019, at 20:35, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> ?by the way scroll a bit down, you'll read: 53% of the website visitors will click away if it does not load within 3 seconds.
>> 
>> Think again about the html5 export...too slow to load.
>> 
>> Then you are better off writing a html page yourself and add html5 stuff in it, mucho faster
>> 
>> 
>> Op 7-10-2019 om 21:31 schreef JJS via use-livecode:
>>> mmmm, while on the other hand you can put something extra on your website and it can be installable as a webapp on your mobile, so that it becomes faster than ever to load.
>>> 
>>> https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps <https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps>
>>> 
>>> Op 7-10-2019 om 18:18 schreef Bob Sneidar via use-livecode:
>>>> Because Apple is no longer going to accept apps that are nothing more than a web portal.
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 05:47 , R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
>>>>>> everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I develop
>>>>>> even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same can be
>>>>>> done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page interface, but do
>>>>>> people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for single page
>>>>>> interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Tue Oct  8 07:57:17 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 13:57:17 +0200
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <a83da5d0-dc56-32b5-2ecf-45239de647bb@krutt.org>
 <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <53C7C393-1F86-4395-9A44-F8AAC42226E2@krutt.org>

I really don't think so. Even with a loading bar, i aint gonna wait that long, maybe just one time. In the 28K8 era we waited for +20minutes for a few megabytes, because it was new. Now everyone is spoiled with fast internet and always in a hurry. "Remember that 87.6543 % of statistics are made up. " ...You made that up did you...

Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 8 oktober 2019 13:45:44 CEST:
>That would be true for a ?page? that did not load in 3 sec but if you
>have a loading bar they would probably be more willing. 
>
>While developing for HTML5 I have to post up to the website and then
>refresh the page to reload the whole thing which takes about 10
>seconds. But even after repeated times of this it has not become
>uncomfortable. 
>
>I also don?t trust this statistic of 3 seconds. Count out 3 seconds and
>see if that feels uncomfortable to you to give up. 53% is a ridiculous
>number for that level of impatience. Remember that 87.6543 % of
>statistics are made up.  
>
>Sean Cole
>Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>
>> On 7 Oct 2019, at 20:35, JJS via use-livecode
><use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?by the way scroll a bit down, you'll read: 53% of the website
>visitors will click away if it does not load within 3 seconds.
>> 
>> Think again about the html5 export...too slow to load.
>> 
>> Then you are better off writing a html page yourself and add html5
>stuff in it, mucho faster
>> 
>> 
>> Op 7-10-2019 om 21:31 schreef JJS via use-livecode:
>>> mmmm, while on the other hand you can put something extra on your
>website and it can be installable as a webapp on your mobile, so that
>it becomes faster than ever to load.
>>> 
>>> https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps
>>> 
>>> Op 7-10-2019 om 18:18 schreef Bob Sneidar via use-livecode:
>>>> Because Apple is no longer going to accept apps that are nothing
>more than a web portal.
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 5, 2019, at 05:47 , R.H. via use-livecode
><use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Let us face the fact that today's browsers are capable of almost
>>>>>> everything you want to do with a rich application. Why should I
>develop
>>>>>> even desktop applications and mobile apps if pretty much the same
>can be
>>>>>> done in a modern browser? OK, it only has a single page
>interface, but do
>>>>>> people care? Already, even in LC, I am mostly developing for
>single page
>>>>>> interface design anyway and do not use separate windows.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From brian at milby7.com  Tue Oct  8 08:30:44 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 08:30:44 -0400
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <16da9df49f0.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
 <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <44c99243-69fa-34b8-0f65-bccf90610de3@sonic.net>
 <16da70d2aa8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <7462cb65-efad-beee-ec40-310cc3532c17@sonic.net>
 <16da9df49f0.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <63f8897a-91e6-4b39-a5e5-4376aa99c1ca@Spark>

I?ve noticed it on that project as well, but have not narrowed down the symptoms. ?I know that the definition is available at times and will need to look at it. ?I have a project set up in Atom that makes searching the stack only scripts easy.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 8, 2019, 1:38 AM -0400, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> When I was working on the project, all the scripts were put in use when the
> app launched and they were all listed in the in-use pane in the message
> box. It was a huge list, too. I wonder if that matters.
>
> BR would know more about how it's working now.
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On October 7, 2019 7:11:30 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > On 10/7/19 9:28 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> > > I don't have a current example, it happened when I was working on
> > > Swami's project which is almost entirely script-only stacks. I had to
> > > use BBEdit to search folders to find a handler definition.
> >
> > So you're editing a script in the SE and it's got a reference to a
> > command that's in a script-only stack that isn't in memory?
> >
> > Based on some of B's other posts, I'd guess that the script has the line
> > "start using stack xyz" but you're just editing the script and it hasn't
> > been put into play yet, so the "start using" command hasn't been
> > invoked. That makes sense to me, and I wouldn't expect the definition to
> > be found. If this is the case, is there a reason to invoke "start using"
> > instead of making the script a behavior?
> >
> > --
> > Mark Wieder
> > ahsoftware at gmail.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Tue Oct  8 09:52:52 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:52:52 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <80320fce-6491-58fd-7475-7a38c820a9e8@gmail.com>
References: <3C742FA4-A968-4640-82E9-F3F00BBEAB0D@unimelb.edu.au>
 <b5fdab49-5a2f-efdc-65e4-b6cb17b7c069@fourthworld.com>
 <a1467ec4-796c-79cc-c64a-e151c8ca58b9@sonic.net>
 <25c46321-dac9-0568-e86b-774f1f8bc6fb@gmail.com>
 <80320fce-6491-58fd-7475-7a38c820a9e8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycOkCTh8eCYwNGgX_E6pG0FucVit-fZx3Li-C_ZGh_pvsA@mail.gmail.com>

i am so not being clear about this.  i hate it when no one else understands
what i'm not saying.
i am not proposing a system that is either administered by LC or where LC
is involved in the work.  what i am proposing is that all of us control
this process.  it's our money, right?  We propose the bounty, we control
the bounty, and we pay the bounty.  We don't care who collects the bounty
(if LC grabs all of it then go LC), as long as the damn bug gets fixed, or
the feature gets added, etc.

If I was designing this thing, it might look like this
_mikey's_crazy-dumb_bounty_program_
(v. 0.0.0.0.0.1)
for the sake of this thing, "bugs" and "features" and everything else are
the same.

? bugs are nominated
? in parallel estimates are submitted to fix a bug (both in terms of an ETA
and a cost) and patrons put up coin either as pledges or better yet in
escrow to finance fixing the bug, and include how long they're willing to
have their funds tied up waiting.
the estimates and the pledges stay under wraps.  as of the bid-open date,
all the estimators will know is if their estimate has been exceeded with
the pledged (escrowed) funds.  all the patrons know is that there are n
estimates (which may be an integer or may be a range) that can be funded
with the amount that has been escrowed.
? the blackout period begins, set by a consensus of the estimators and the
pledges and agreed to by both groups.  at this point anyone on either side
can pull out, and we reassess.  all estimators that are under the pledge
total get first crack at submitting a fix and collecting the bounty (their
bid).  if the time expires and no fix is submitted/passes initial tests,
then the bug is opened up to anyone, and the escrowed amount is revealed.
? if someone does not submit a fix, patrons can choose to remove funds,
apply them to a different bug, or let funds ride until the bug is funded
and someone decides to fix it.
? if no fix is submitted, but someone comes along a year from now and says
"hey, I can fix that for x", the original patrons are notified and given
the opportunity to get back in.
? if fix is accepted, patrons get access to it, and even though nobody
cares, get their name put on it and in it
? insert delay for patrons to test and report issues and for developer to
fix
? developer gets paid
? insert delay while patrons enjoy the benefit of financing the fix
? the fix is submitted as a PR to the rest of the world who didn't pony up
for the fix


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct  8 11:03:47 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 15:03:47 +0000
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <a83da5d0-dc56-32b5-2ecf-45239de647bb@krutt.org>
 <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C24D3DD6-5280-4152-ABB0-BC33ACFCD6C7@iotecdigital.com>

And as we know from past experience, the loading bar doesn't even have to reflect the *actual* progress! ;-)

Bob S
 

> On Oct 8, 2019, at 04:45 , Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> That would be true for a ?page? that did not load in 3 sec but if you have a loading bar they would probably be more willing. 


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 11:07:10 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 16:07:10 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycOkCTh8eCYwNGgX_E6pG0FucVit-fZx3Li-C_ZGh_pvsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADCoycOkCTh8eCYwNGgX_E6pG0FucVit-fZx3Li-C_ZGh_pvsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>

> On 8 Oct 2019, at 14:52, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ? insert delay while patrons enjoy the benefit of financing the fix


How does this bit work. If the PR has been submitted, how will others benefit unless a build is released? Who would be responsible for that considering it?s complexity. 

Another thought is, who do you suppose has the necessary skills to do this when it comes to coding in c++? Can we get a show of hands? (My hand is down for this one)

If it?s coded in LCS, how will you submit the PR considering LC do not accept binaries. You have to write out all of your script changes long form for them to review in person by hand/eye. 

Forgive me for saying but, except the bounty idea, wasn?t this the whole point of it going open source - so that the community would fix bugs themselves!!!!! Paid incentives may still not be enough seeing as the majority are LC coders and not C++. You need people with the necessary skills. 

Otherwise, a nice idea. 

Also, If two happen to work on the fix and submit pretty close to each other (rare, I know) that may raise an interesting situation regarding the split of bounty. But I?m sure would be sorted amicably. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

From brian at milby7.com  Tue Oct  8 11:12:10 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 11:12:10 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <CADCoycOkCTh8eCYwNGgX_E6pG0FucVit-fZx3Li-C_ZGh_pvsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e52a78ad-4249-4ec4-85a3-d868b48dc0e6@Spark>

Small point on LCS... most things can probably be fixed by editing behavior scripts and not binary files. ?If a binary file needs to be updated, you can write a script to transform the binary and submit it (then a core team member can review and apply the change).

I?ll agree that feature adds that make big changes to binary stacks will be a challenge for the community to submit. ?The above was more for small tweaks to binary UI files.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 8, 2019, 11:08 AM -0400, Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > On 8 Oct 2019, at 14:52, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > ? insert delay while patrons enjoy the benefit of financing the fix
>
>
> How does this bit work. If the PR has been submitted, how will others benefit unless a build is released? Who would be responsible for that considering it?s complexity.
>
> Another thought is, who do you suppose has the necessary skills to do this when it comes to coding in c++? Can we get a show of hands? (My hand is down for this one)
>
> If it?s coded in LCS, how will you submit the PR considering LC do not accept binaries. You have to write out all of your script changes long form for them to review in person by hand/eye.
>
> Forgive me for saying but, except the bounty idea, wasn?t this the whole point of it going open source - so that the community would fix bugs themselves!!!!! Paid incentives may still not be enough seeing as the majority are LC coders and not C++. You need people with the necessary skills.
>
> Otherwise, a nice idea.
>
> Also, If two happen to work on the fix and submit pretty close to each other (rare, I know) that may raise an interesting situation regarding the split of bounty. But I?m sure would be sorted amicably.
>
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct  8 11:23:55 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 08:23:55 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7150abd3-a63c-a5a8-5d92-c9e7ea783e75@fourthworld.com>

Pi Digital wrote:

 > If it?s coded in LCS, how will you submit the PR considering LC do not
 > accept binaries.

With very few exceptions these days, most stacks throughout the IDE were 
rewritten as script-only stacks specifically to facilitate collaborative 
development.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct  8 11:29:46 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 08:29:46 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <9AFB34C0-27D0-4A22-B19E-D5510FB7CB58@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <9AFB34C0-27D0-4A22-B19E-D5510FB7CB58@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <9be9516e-7e89-f92a-cb83-d0026bc2d8b9@fourthworld.com>

Terry Judd wrote:

 > ?On 8/10/19, 4:34 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:
 >
 >> I think the politicking was a big factor in killing the voting
 >> system. I remember many times when people would post to the list,
 >> urging others to cast a vote for an issue so it would rise to
 >> the top. Those voters may never have seen the bug but it sounded
 >> important and they had a vote or two to spare.
 >
 > I feel like there are plenty of ways that a point system that avoids
 > some of these issues with the previous one could be implemented -
 > fewer total votes per person, single votes per bug only...

Already in place - from my post:

    There remains at least one element which could loosely be seen as
    a sort of voting: a bug's CC list.

    Usually an address will wind up there after that person has
    experienced the bug, searched the DB for it, and found that it had
    been reported.  When that happens organically, the number of people
    subscribing to a bug can be a useful addition that, with the other
    details of the report, help the team evaluate priority.

     And being a single value per user, it's a single signal rather than
     a conflation of two different signals as the old form with multiple
     votes did, so it's more immediately clear what it's signifying.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 11:32:44 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 16:32:44 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <CADCoycOkCTh8eCYwNGgX_E6pG0FucVit-fZx3Li-C_ZGh_pvsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VAiDYanJDBZ+VcNJTtmqh=5cRjqZfgnWn2qvjDkEFX8Qg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

If I can interject here.

WHEN they have decided that they can add new resources (it used to be
people but now we are all commodities) or
reassign said resources to the LC branch rather than nearly all to the LC
for FM branch. If LCFM becomes the cash cow
then bugs will surely be fixed quicker and be inserted into the poor
peasants branch (us with indy and business licences).

The only problem with that is that the said bug to do with the native text
field not working might never be fixed because it isn't a
problem for the "Cash Cow" Branch.

This could also mean that previously funded stuff (i'm beginning to sound
like a broken clock - sqlite framework) might again
still have less priority.

This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms - no
communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what is the
intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....

here is a 2014 update  ...

https://livecode.com/the-present-and-future-livecode/

Open Language: With the core refactoring almost complete (LiveCode 7.0)
we?ve started to turn our attention to the final aspect of this project
which is to open up the language for extension by anyone. We have been
prototyping for quite some time now and plans are in place to move this
project forward at a rapid pace once LiveCode 7.0 is released. We will
complete network, socket and database libraries with easy to use English
like syntax as part of the development and testing of this feature. This is
currently slated as one half of our next major release, currently
imaginatively named ?8.0?.

Physics Engine
Incorporate Box2D into LiveCode along with an animation loop feature.

Network / Sockets
Use new open language feature to implement

Database
Use new open language feature to implement.


To my knowledge (I am willing/hoping to be wrong) not one of these has been
implemented and I don't know if database included the Sqlite framework
which had its own crowdfunding over 3 years ago
and a 3 month implementation schedule.

Open language was what got me to "bite the bullet" and move over to
Livecode in the first place

Is Open Language dead Mark?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQveng3Wxz8


Regards Lagi

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 at 16:07, Pi Digital via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> > On 8 Oct 2019, at 14:52, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > ? insert delay while patrons enjoy the benefit of financing the fix
>
>
> How does this bit work. If the PR has been submitted, how will others
> benefit unless a build is released? Who would be responsible for that
> considering it?s complexity.
>
> Another thought is, who do you suppose has the necessary skills to do this
> when it comes to coding in c++? Can we get a show of hands? (My hand is
> down for this one)
>
> If it?s coded in LCS, how will you submit the PR considering LC do not
> accept binaries. You have to write out all of your script changes long form
> for them to review in person by hand/eye.
>
> Forgive me for saying but, except the bounty idea, wasn?t this the whole
> point of it going open source - so that the community would fix bugs
> themselves!!!!! Paid incentives may still not be enough seeing as the
> majority are LC coders and not C++. You need people with the necessary
> skills.
>
> Otherwise, a nice idea.
>
> Also, If two happen to work on the fix and submit pretty close to each
> other (rare, I know) that may raise an interesting situation regarding the
> split of bounty. But I?m sure would be sorted amicably.
>
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Tue Oct  8 11:36:28 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 08:36:28 -0700
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <63f8897a-91e6-4b39-a5e5-4376aa99c1ca@Spark>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
 <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <44c99243-69fa-34b8-0f65-bccf90610de3@sonic.net>
 <16da70d2aa8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <7462cb65-efad-beee-ec40-310cc3532c17@sonic.net>
 <16da9df49f0.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <63f8897a-91e6-4b39-a5e5-4376aa99c1ca@Spark>
Message-ID: <a50f0f59-f310-8e39-8975-1972b5e45cd1@sonic.net>

On 10/8/19 5:30 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> I?ve noticed it on that project as well, but have not narrowed down the symptoms. ?I know that the definition is available at times and will need to look at it. ?I have a project set up in Atom that makes searching the stack only scripts easy.

...otherwise known as grep <g>

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct  8 12:19:07 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:19:07 -0700
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <711a4c85-de9e-3871-1f53-b0ae3c9ffe8b@fourthworld.com>

Pi Digital wrote:

 > I also don?t trust this statistic of 3 seconds. Count out 3 seconds
 > and see if that feels uncomfortable to you to give up.

3 seconds is the shortest threshold I've seen suggested as critical.

But there's no debate on the principle in general: longer load times 
lose users.

Awareness of this is not new.  Jacob Nielsen first drew attention to it 
back in the '90s, with his methodology and results summarized here:
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/

Here Neil Patel brings this into the web era, with links to the original 
research:
https://neilpatel.com/blog/speed-is-a-killer/

Among the other links in Patel's article is the report from Google on 
the 3 second threshold, worth reading for the many useful details it 
provides. While we may nitpick details on their methods, there's no 
doubt Google has enough data to make such a claim.  So the most severe 
rebuttal that can be reasonably offered might be assuming a margin of 
error of 50%, making the threshold 4.5 seconds - which happens to be a 
quite close to what other devs regularly achieve, according to the first 
set of charts here:
https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/marketing-resources/data-measurement/mobile-page-speed-new-industry-benchmarks/


There are many other research citations to be found (even more if you 
have access to the ACM library), and the general takeaway is that as web 
use grows, and network speeds increase, and more devs are aware of and 
supporting the benefits of delivering a great experience quickly, users 
increasingly expect a page to be downloaded AND rendered for use within 
just a few seconds.

The exact number of seconds may vary from study to study, but the 
principle remains constant across all research I've seen on the subject 
spanning more than two decades.

---

All that said....

It's useful to remember those expectations are for loading web PAGES, 
not necessarily for loading web APPLICATIONS.

Of course a web app exists within a page, but the distinction is in its 
utility: generically, a page is something you read, with the outcome 
being obtaining information, while an app is something you use, with 
outcomes that can vary but are often more significant to the user than 
something that can be read.

Not even LC Ltd. would suggest using LC's HTML export to produce simple 
textual articles for the web.  It's more work and loads much slower than 
using simpler web-native methods.

I outlined the sweet spot for LC's HTML export a couple months ago:
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2019-August/255911.html

It boils down to:

IF
   you have an existing LC app
AND
   its functionality would be non-trivial to translate to JS
AND
   it's of high value to your specific audience
THEN
   using LC's HTML export might be a good solution.


Assuming the landing page on your site and most other content is simple 
HTML, and your audience has reason to believe your app is valuable 
enough to them to be worth the wait, they'll wait.

In such a relatively specialized circumstance, stats describing user 
behavior on generic pages don't apply.

Looking ahead, WebASM is now supported in enough browsers that it's 
become practical to replace the current LC C++ engine -> JS method with 
LC C++ engine -> WebASM.  Doing so will benefit download, unpacking, and 
rendering times, in addition to general runtime performance.  It would 
be useful to hear from the team on when they think they may be able to 
embark on that transition.

---

Another option underutilized in our community remains one of the LC's 
secret strengths:

Streaming apps: Native apps with web benefits.

A slim standalone that can download UI and code stacks from a web server 
along with data deliver all the benefits of a web app in terms of the 
user always having the latest version and the ease for the developer in 
delivering updates.  But it avoids the janky rendering experience of 
browser content, and a UI overloaded with a plethora of browser controls 
that have nothing to do with your app's functionality.  Bonus that you 
can cache what you download to support fully offline workflows.

The only additional cost to the user is a one-time download and install.

In some cases this is seen as prohibitive, and in a subset of those 
cases that perception may actually reflect reality.

But it's worth noting that many of the same orgs that say "No, we can't 
download and install an app, it's got to be in a browser!" are the same 
orgs that bypass the browser for mobile where they invest heavily for 
the superior user experience a native app provides.

--

Many factors go into the decision of whether an application experience 
is best delivered natively or within the confines of a browser window, 
and there's enough written all over the web that we don't need to list 
them all here.

I don't believe there's any single "best" for all possible apps.

If we evaluate the capabilities of what we're delivering, the needs of 
the audience we're delivering to, and the full range of options are our 
disposal, we can make the best choice for the project at hand.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com





From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct  8 12:42:53 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:42:53 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <a213ea39-e875-09a6-24e4-9b43dfe02813@fourthworld.com>

Pi Digital wrote:

 > Forgive me for saying but, except the bounty idea, wasn?t this the
 > whole point of it going open source - so that the community would
 > fix bugs themselves!!!!!

Personally, I try to avoid making claims about other people's internal 
motivations.  Since I'm not them, such information is unknowable to me. 
I find it better to focus instead on what can be observed.

Maybe it's just a byproduct of having an audience in which such a large 
segment got started decades ago, in a time when dev tools were mostly 
proprietary, but I find the limited familiarity with what's happening in 
the world outside of LC may contribute to these frequent kvetchfests.

In this second decade of the 21st century, with very few exceptions 
nearly all infrastructure and dev tools are open source.

See the list of languages on the TIOBE list, and you can count on one 
hand the few that remain there which are proprietary.

In this modern world, most devs won't even look at a dev tool unless 
they know they can have access to its source.  That doesn't matter to 
consumers, which is why proprietary apps continue to thrive in consumer 
segments.  But devs demand open source.

So looking at this clear preference in the dev world, the choice to move 
LC to open source seems far less sinister than your presumption implies:

Without open source, any dev tool is at serious risk of becoming inviable.

What may seem exotic to those more familiar with closed-source tools is 
just how things work in open source.  User contributions, bug bounties - 
none of this is contentious in communities experienced in open source 
process.

And to be clear, in terms of actual usage LC is very much an open source 
project: More than 3/4 of its users are using the GPL-governed Community 
Edition.

I wrote this yesterday, and I have no reason to mislead you, so please 
consider it as a key to understanding LC's place in the modern world:

    From an early-90s perspective, we can think of LC as a proprietary
    product that offers an open source option for evangelism.

    But in terms of actual usage in the here-and-now, LC is more
    accurately an open source project in which a subset of the
    development costs are subsidized by an optional proprietary license.

    New world, new ways....

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From paul at researchware.com  Tue Oct  8 13:03:12 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 13:03:12 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <a213ea39-e875-09a6-24e4-9b43dfe02813@fourthworld.com>
References: <C5AA83FA-E373-4BE1-96BE-04AB5E4C3641@pidigital.co.uk>
 <a213ea39-e875-09a6-24e4-9b43dfe02813@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <69f51268-3987-9c7a-29a9-5781db2655da@researchware.com>

On 10/8/2019 12:42 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Pi Digital wrote:
>
> > Forgive me for saying but, except the bounty idea, wasn?t this the
> > whole point of it going open source - so that the community would
> > fix bugs themselves!!!!!
>
> Personally, I try to avoid making claims about other people's internal 
> motivations.? Since I'm not them, such information is unknowable to 
> me. I find it better to focus instead on what can be observed.

Researchware (me) backed LiveCode's open source effort not because I 
ever expected to fix any bugs myself. I viewed the investment as 
corporate insurance. Both of our two commercial applications are 
developed in LiveCode. IF (and I hope it NEVER happens), something 
happened to LiveCode AND it went out of business AND no one else picked 
up support for the language, I wanted access to the LC source to be able 
to continue to develop our apps under LC rather than be forced to try to 
port them to some other language.

Richard is right. People likely sponsored the open source effort for a 
wide variety of reasons.



From jjs at krutt.org  Tue Oct  8 14:37:07 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 20:37:07 +0200
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <711a4c85-de9e-3871-1f53-b0ae3c9ffe8b@fourthworld.com>
References: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <711a4c85-de9e-3871-1f53-b0ae3c9ffe8b@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <93dfcc8b-874e-c175-c046-f3c41d2bdd20@krutt.org>

If you watch the movie a bit on the link i posted about the webapps, it 
is quite interesting. Superfast loading, works on all platforms, on all 
browsers. Pages and applications. Works even Offline via caches. All 
your work is synced when going online again (in case you have a bad 
connection or whatever).

People adjust to speed, once you have a faster system with SSD for 
example and you go back to your previous computer which is slower, slow 
networking, slow harddrive etcetera, you get irritated quickly. So 
that's why i say, the HTML5 export is a nice thing to experiment, but no 
visitor is going to return after the first time of long waiting, not 
even if the 2nd time is somewhat quicker.

So i think Progressive Webapps is going to be the next leading thing and 
not only because Google wants it, but because it's already majorly 
supported by all webbrowsers.

Maybe this could be a new feature for LC server and apps. Just a wild 
thought.


Op 8-10-2019 om 18:19 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode:
> Pi Digital wrote:
>
> > I also don?t trust this statistic of 3 seconds. Count out 3 seconds
> > and see if that feels uncomfortable to you to give up.
>
> 3 seconds is the shortest threshold I've seen suggested as critical.
>
> But there's no debate on the principle in general: longer load times 
> lose users.
>
> Awareness of this is not new.? Jacob Nielsen first drew attention to 
> it back in the '90s, with his methodology and results summarized here:
> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/
>
> Here Neil Patel brings this into the web era, with links to the 
> original research:
> https://neilpatel.com/blog/speed-is-a-killer/
>
> Among the other links in Patel's article is the report from Google on 
> the 3 second threshold, worth reading for the many useful details it 
> provides. While we may nitpick details on their methods, there's no 
> doubt Google has enough data to make such a claim.? So the most severe 
> rebuttal that can be reasonably offered might be assuming a margin of 
> error of 50%, making the threshold 4.5 seconds - which happens to be a 
> quite close to what other devs regularly achieve, according to the 
> first set of charts here:
> https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/marketing-resources/data-measurement/mobile-page-speed-new-industry-benchmarks/ 
>
>
>
> There are many other research citations to be found (even more if you 
> have access to the ACM library), and the general takeaway is that as 
> web use grows, and network speeds increase, and more devs are aware of 
> and supporting the benefits of delivering a great experience quickly, 
> users increasingly expect a page to be downloaded AND rendered for use 
> within just a few seconds.
>
> The exact number of seconds may vary from study to study, but the 
> principle remains constant across all research I've seen on the 
> subject spanning more than two decades.
>
> ---
>
> All that said....
>
> It's useful to remember those expectations are for loading web PAGES, 
> not necessarily for loading web APPLICATIONS.
>
> Of course a web app exists within a page, but the distinction is in 
> its utility: generically, a page is something you read, with the 
> outcome being obtaining information, while an app is something you 
> use, with outcomes that can vary but are often more significant to the 
> user than something that can be read.
>
> Not even LC Ltd. would suggest using LC's HTML export to produce 
> simple textual articles for the web.? It's more work and loads much 
> slower than using simpler web-native methods.
>
> I outlined the sweet spot for LC's HTML export a couple months ago:
> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2019-August/255911.html
>
> It boils down to:
>
> IF
> ? you have an existing LC app
> AND
> ? its functionality would be non-trivial to translate to JS
> AND
> ? it's of high value to your specific audience
> THEN
> ? using LC's HTML export might be a good solution.
>
>
> Assuming the landing page on your site and most other content is 
> simple HTML, and your audience has reason to believe your app is 
> valuable enough to them to be worth the wait, they'll wait.
>
> In such a relatively specialized circumstance, stats describing user 
> behavior on generic pages don't apply.
>
> Looking ahead, WebASM is now supported in enough browsers that it's 
> become practical to replace the current LC C++ engine -> JS method 
> with LC C++ engine -> WebASM.? Doing so will benefit download, 
> unpacking, and rendering times, in addition to general runtime 
> performance.? It would be useful to hear from the team on when they 
> think they may be able to embark on that transition.
>
> ---
>
> Another option underutilized in our community remains one of the LC's 
> secret strengths:
>
> Streaming apps: Native apps with web benefits.
>
> A slim standalone that can download UI and code stacks from a web 
> server along with data deliver all the benefits of a web app in terms 
> of the user always having the latest version and the ease for the 
> developer in delivering updates.? But it avoids the janky rendering 
> experience of browser content, and a UI overloaded with a plethora of 
> browser controls that have nothing to do with your app's 
> functionality.? Bonus that you can cache what you download to support 
> fully offline workflows.
>
> The only additional cost to the user is a one-time download and install.
>
> In some cases this is seen as prohibitive, and in a subset of those 
> cases that perception may actually reflect reality.
>
> But it's worth noting that many of the same orgs that say "No, we 
> can't download and install an app, it's got to be in a browser!" are 
> the same orgs that bypass the browser for mobile where they invest 
> heavily for the superior user experience a native app provides.
>
> -- 
>
> Many factors go into the decision of whether an application experience 
> is best delivered natively or within the confines of a browser window, 
> and there's enough written all over the web that we don't need to list 
> them all here.
>
> I don't believe there's any single "best" for all possible apps.
>
> If we evaluate the capabilities of what we're delivering, the needs of 
> the audience we're delivering to, and the full range of options are 
> our disposal, we can make the best choice for the project at hand.
>



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct  8 16:42:37 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 13:42:37 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VAiDYanJDBZ+VcNJTtmqh=5cRjqZfgnWn2qvjDkEFX8Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VAiDYanJDBZ+VcNJTtmqh=5cRjqZfgnWn2qvjDkEFX8Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8cacea5d-01eb-640a-62e1-1f0ac380f2df@fourthworld.com>

Lagi Pittas wrote:

 > This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms - no
 > communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
 > as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what
 > is the intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....
 >
 > here is a 2014 update  ...
 >
 > https://livecode.com/the-present-and-future-livecode/

And here is a May 2016 update:

https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/


A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large 
number of times.

How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent 
information is absorbed?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct  8 18:48:53 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 22:48:53 +0000
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <711a4c85-de9e-3871-1f53-b0ae3c9ffe8b@fourthworld.com>
References: <C5EA1805-5CAE-43ED-A043-09D24D7999D9@pidigital.co.uk>
 <711a4c85-de9e-3871-1f53-b0ae3c9ffe8b@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <B9A4DB37-0BF2-4F34-B278-31F156F05E37@iotecdigital.com>

When first connecting to a KIP plotter web portal it takes sometimes 20 to 30 seconds to load the page. Before that it's blank. What we need to do is stop giving web devs right out of college the responsibility for creating web portals. ;-) (Always blame it on them yungsters is my motto.)

Bob S


> On Oct 8, 2019, at 09:19 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Pi Digital wrote:
> 
> > I also don?t trust this statistic of 3 seconds. Count out 3 seconds
> > and see if that feels uncomfortable to you to give up.
> 
> 3 seconds is the shortest threshold I've seen suggested as critical.
> 
> But there's no debate on the principle in general: longer load times lose users.


From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 20:17:28 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 01:17:28 +0100
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <93dfcc8b-874e-c175-c046-f3c41d2bdd20@krutt.org>
References: <93dfcc8b-874e-c175-c046-f3c41d2bdd20@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <38ABEB74-B30C-4407-9F27-0632D5AE7156@pidigital.co.uk>

> On 8 Oct 2019, at 19:37, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> So that's why i say, the HTML5 export is a nice thing to experiment, but no visitor is going to return after the first time of long waiting, not even if the 2nd time is somewhat quicker


Again, this only potentially applies to the landing page, not a web app which any visitor would or could expect a loading time, especially if warned. Our clients are already happy with this. It?s still less or about the same as they experienced with the desktop app. 

HTML5 deployment from LC is not intended for making web pages. 

Have you loaded MS Dynamics or any other CRM for that matter in a browser. And yet they are used day in day out by thousands of businesses globally. Each MSD window is tedious - loading takes 16-20sec and inconsistent. LC html is a dream in comparison (despite its current bugs and screwups). 

https://tariffanalyser.porrima.co.uk

Double click the circle icon to see some demo data and display 28k+ records in a custom built DataGrid (coz datagrid2 is broken and mega slow at the moment). 

That?s what I?m working on and it loads pretty fast in comparison. 10 seconds to download the app and engine, run, Connect to a list from MySQL via php, resize to fit the screen and display. (Note: this is not designed for mobile platforms)

Each sales agent will have a link on their desktop that will open up Chrome to this page as if opening a desktop app. And they can leave it open over night if they wish and come back to it the next morning after logging back into their machine. 

This ?experiment? seems to be working. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Tue Oct  8 20:49:31 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 01:49:31 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <8cacea5d-01eb-640a-62e1-1f0ac380f2df@fourthworld.com>
References: <8cacea5d-01eb-640a-62e1-1f0ac380f2df@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>

> On 8 Oct 2019, at 21:42, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> And here is a May 2016 update:
> 
> https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/
> 
> 
> A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large number of times.
> 
> How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent information is absorbed?

An excellent article. Which part was you pointing to in reference to Lagi?s question about older campaigns funded that have still not met the core? And which part do you refer to when asserting that absorption of info is needed to reduce the same conversations recursion rate?

Note: I?m not inferring any kind of ill intent on LCs part. Just seeking clarification on up to date stances as a 2016 discussion is itself 3yrs old now. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd



From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct  8 21:52:23 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 03:52:23 +0200
Subject: Catalina
Message-ID: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>

"Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
What a beautiful sounding name!

But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
(I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
for speed.

I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.

May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
But it's kind of a burial.   :-((




From waprothero at gmail.com  Tue Oct  8 22:10:31 2019
From: waprothero at gmail.com (William Prothero)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 19:10:31 -0700
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <14F33FC8-4C95-4111-93BC-CD02EF415B05@hyperhh.de>
References: <14F33FC8-4C95-4111-93BC-CD02EF415B05@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <1F80CEED-5186-460E-BBB1-868090E3E40E@gmail.com>

Folks:
I?m doing web stuff with php and Wordpress, and reading all of the postings about LC?s HTML5 deployment. Since I have done a lot of programming of LC and have a business license, it could be a lot easier to use LC in a server environment than struggling with my minimal php skills.

The lessons for HTML5 are very, very minimal and leave a LOT unanswered. But, here?s what I think and perhaps you can correct any mis-conceptions. 

HTML5 deployment is basically an app that is downloaded and runs in a browser. It?s kinda like Flash and Director, except that the ?plugin? is downloaded with the app and the browser runs the app in its built-in javascript engine. However, the tutorials for HTML5 are pretty much non-existent and I would expect a lot of hair-pulling (not that I have a lot of excess) in trying to use it.

Using the livecode plugin is more in the style of php. Revigniter seems like a great application framework, and it uses the cgi mode of livecode. Revigniter seems like it would make building web sites using LC a lot easier, and would provide a lot of programming examples and handlers that would very much ease development.

Has anybody use LC for a wordpress plugin? Or perhaps a basic wordpress site could exist alongside the LC supported site.

What do you think? Feedback would be much appreciated.

Best,
Bill Prothero

William A. Prothero
http://earthlearningsolutions.org



From brian at milby7.com  Tue Oct  8 22:21:45 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 22:21:45 -0400
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <38ABEB74-B30C-4407-9F27-0632D5AE7156@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <93dfcc8b-874e-c175-c046-f3c41d2bdd20@krutt.org>
 <38ABEB74-B30C-4407-9F27-0632D5AE7156@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CA+yhkRaiN1HF8=EwKN+YfrUaLLJ8ihcOOXFnG+kTQD+pQj=1pA@mail.gmail.com>

I'll say that is a good job so far.  The grid is very responsive (but I am
using a pretty fast laptop).  Second time to the page was much faster than
the first.  And I'll agree that some of the corporate web apps that I have
to use can take time to get themselves ready for anything.  Even the SAP
desktop client can be slow to load.

Thanks for posting this.

Brian

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 8:18 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> > On 8 Oct 2019, at 19:37, JJS via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > So that's why i say, the HTML5 export is a nice thing to experiment, but
> no visitor is going to return after the first time of long waiting, not
> even if the 2nd time is somewhat quicker
>
>
> Again, this only potentially applies to the landing page, not a web app
> which any visitor would or could expect a loading time, especially if
> warned. Our clients are already happy with this. It?s still less or about
> the same as they experienced with the desktop app.
>
> HTML5 deployment from LC is not intended for making web pages.
>
> Have you loaded MS Dynamics or any other CRM for that matter in a browser.
> And yet they are used day in day out by thousands of businesses globally.
> Each MSD window is tedious - loading takes 16-20sec and inconsistent. LC
> html is a dream in comparison (despite its current bugs and screwups).
>
> https://tariffanalyser.porrima.co.uk
>
> Double click the circle icon to see some demo data and display 28k+
> records in a custom built DataGrid (coz datagrid2 is broken and mega slow
> at the moment).
>
> That?s what I?m working on and it loads pretty fast in comparison. 10
> seconds to download the app and engine, run, Connect to a list from MySQL
> via php, resize to fit the screen and display. (Note: this is not designed
> for mobile platforms)
>
> Each sales agent will have a link on their desktop that will open up
> Chrome to this page as if opening a desktop app. And they can leave it open
> over night if they wish and come back to it the next morning after logging
> back into their machine.
>
> This ?experiment? seems to be working.
>
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct  8 22:49:28 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 19:49:28 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>

Pi Digital wrote:

 >> On 8 Oct 2019, at 21:42, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >>
 >> And here is a May 2016 update:
 >>
 >> 
https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/
 >>
 >>
 >> A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large
 >> number of times.
 >>
 >> How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent
 >> information is absorbed?
 >
 > An excellent article. Which part was you pointing to in reference to
 > Lagi?s question about older campaigns funded that have still not met
 > the core?

There's a section in the middle listing off the accomplishments since 
the Kickstarter, and some of the discussion goes into how much of that 
was paid for out-of-pocket.


 > And which part do you refer to when asserting that absorption of info
 > is needed to reduce the same conversations recursion rate?

The portion of Lagi's post I had originally quoted in my reply:

     This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms
     - no communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
     as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what
     is the intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....

He's one of about three people who keep going back to the Kickstarter 
list as some form of eternal damnation against the team, and he knows 
that I know that he's read comments here and in the forums from Kevin 
and other team members that have discussed all of that over and over and 
over and over again.

How many times does Kevin need to post a mea culpa about being among the 
80% of software project leaders that underestimated cost?  Apparently 
half a dozen isn't enough.

In summary: Most of the list was delivered, most of the remainder is in 
the DB as feature requests to be completed as resources permit.


Kevin, Heather, Mark and others have been very forthcoming here about 
what the company is working on, at least to the degree that this 
community allows.  But there's not much allowance granted:

As they've explained many times, they've joined the majority of 
companies less willing to offer loose projections about delivery times 
precisely because of things like this.  If they give a projected 
deadline and circumstances change, it will become a dominant and 
repeated theme among a very small but very vocal minority.  This isn't 
unique to LC; their previous candor was a distinction.  Now they operate 
like everyone else, because the moment they dare to discuss anything not 
already in the can they expose themselves to a continuation of this same 
tediousness that every other company figured out how to avoid by keeping 
cards close.

Wanna know what Apple's working on for 2020? Good luck.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct  8 23:04:22 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 20:04:22 -0700
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <1F80CEED-5186-460E-BBB1-868090E3E40E@gmail.com>
References: <1F80CEED-5186-460E-BBB1-868090E3E40E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <829437b4-4d1a-1eb4-3762-b87a51f0c39a@fourthworld.com>

William Prothero wrote:

 > Has anybody use LC for a wordpress plugin? Or perhaps a basic
 > wordpress site could exist alongside the LC supported site.

I've considered it, but Wordpress' licensing made it incompatible with 
my business goals.

Wordpress is GPL, and like Drupal and Joomla they're explicitly clear 
that anything that runs in the same PHP process as their framework is 
considered "derivative work" under the GPL.  Accordingly, all plugins 
and even themes can only be released under GPL.

https://wordpress.org/about/license/

If you're interested in sharing source, LC's Community Edition allows 
you to deploy under the same GPL license.

Since I never looked beyond the licensing, I'm not sure if the WP 
framework supports integration with any languages other than PHP.

Running non-WP portions of a domain alongside WP should be relatively 
easy if the WP part is kept within a specific folder.  It may even be 
possible in other configurations if you're up for a deep dive into WP's 
.htaccess, but last time I look at it I lost interest pretty quickly.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From bogdanoff at me.com  Wed Oct  9 02:32:58 2019
From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 02:32:58 -0400
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <CA+yhkRaiN1HF8=EwKN+YfrUaLLJ8ihcOOXFnG+kTQD+pQj=1pA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <93dfcc8b-874e-c175-c046-f3c41d2bdd20@krutt.org>
 <38ABEB74-B30C-4407-9F27-0632D5AE7156@pidigital.co.uk>
 <CA+yhkRaiN1HF8=EwKN+YfrUaLLJ8ihcOOXFnG+kTQD+pQj=1pA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32ADEB72-EDFE-4E57-A670-C3218180C018@me.com>

Yes Sean, that looks good!

Already when I see the table, I?m blind typing, trying the page up/down keys on the keyboard, resizing the window while it is loading, trying to stress it?

Peter

> On Oct 8, 2019, at 10:21 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I'll say that is a good job so far.  The grid is very responsive (but I am
> using a pretty fast laptop).  Second time to the page was much faster than
> the first.  And I'll agree that some of the corporate web apps that I have
> to use can take time to get themselves ready for anything.  Even the SAP
> desktop client can be slow to load.
> 
> Thanks for posting this.
> 
> Brian
> 
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 8:18 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>>> On 8 Oct 2019, at 19:37, JJS via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> So that's why i say, the HTML5 export is a nice thing to experiment, but
>> no visitor is going to return after the first time of long waiting, not
>> even if the 2nd time is somewhat quicker
>> 
>> 
>> Again, this only potentially applies to the landing page, not a web app
>> which any visitor would or could expect a loading time, especially if
>> warned. Our clients are already happy with this. It?s still less or about
>> the same as they experienced with the desktop app.
>> 
>> HTML5 deployment from LC is not intended for making web pages.
>> 
>> Have you loaded MS Dynamics or any other CRM for that matter in a browser.
>> And yet they are used day in day out by thousands of businesses globally.
>> Each MSD window is tedious - loading takes 16-20sec and inconsistent. LC
>> html is a dream in comparison (despite its current bugs and screwups).
>> 
>> https://tariffanalyser.porrima.co.uk
>> 
>> Double click the circle icon to see some demo data and display 28k+
>> records in a custom built DataGrid (coz datagrid2 is broken and mega slow
>> at the moment).
>> 
>> That?s what I?m working on and it loads pretty fast in comparison. 10
>> seconds to download the app and engine, run, Connect to a list from MySQL
>> via php, resize to fit the screen and display. (Note: this is not designed
>> for mobile platforms)
>> 
>> Each sales agent will have a link on their desktop that will open up
>> Chrome to this page as if opening a desktop app. And they can leave it open
>> over night if they wish and come back to it the next morning after logging
>> back into their machine.
>> 
>> This ?experiment? seems to be working.
>> 
>> Sean Cole
>> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jjs at krutt.org  Wed Oct  9 05:20:03 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 11:20:03 +0200
Subject: Where do we want LiveCode to go? (was "Re: Where LiveCode is Now")
In-Reply-To: <32ADEB72-EDFE-4E57-A670-C3218180C018@me.com>
References: <93dfcc8b-874e-c175-c046-f3c41d2bdd20@krutt.org>
 <38ABEB74-B30C-4407-9F27-0632D5AE7156@pidigital.co.uk>
 <CA+yhkRaiN1HF8=EwKN+YfrUaLLJ8ihcOOXFnG+kTQD+pQj=1pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <32ADEB72-EDFE-4E57-A670-C3218180C018@me.com>
Message-ID: <3BA2DA7F-6B28-47E0-81DB-7B7D4D487128@krutt.org>

@Sean Ok i have to agree. It is looking very professional. and maybe you are right. In this way that i think that for employees of a company this is good to work with. Even the loading times, i acknowledge in that case it is workable. For an average unknown visitor or possible customer who comes by it takes too long to be attractive. 

Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 9 oktober 2019 08:32:58 CEST:
>Yes Sean, that looks good!
>
>Already when I see the table, I?m blind typing, trying the page up/down
>keys on the keyboard, resizing the window while it is loading, trying
>to stress it?
>
>Peter
>
>> On Oct 8, 2019, at 10:21 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode
><use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I'll say that is a good job so far.  The grid is very responsive (but
>I am
>> using a pretty fast laptop).  Second time to the page was much faster
>than
>> the first.  And I'll agree that some of the corporate web apps that I
>have
>> to use can take time to get themselves ready for anything.  Even the
>SAP
>> desktop client can be slow to load.
>> 
>> Thanks for posting this.
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 8:18 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>> On 8 Oct 2019, at 19:37, JJS via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> So that's why i say, the HTML5 export is a nice thing to
>experiment, but
>>> no visitor is going to return after the first time of long waiting,
>not
>>> even if the 2nd time is somewhat quicker
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Again, this only potentially applies to the landing page, not a web
>app
>>> which any visitor would or could expect a loading time, especially
>if
>>> warned. Our clients are already happy with this. It?s still less or
>about
>>> the same as they experienced with the desktop app.
>>> 
>>> HTML5 deployment from LC is not intended for making web pages.
>>> 
>>> Have you loaded MS Dynamics or any other CRM for that matter in a
>browser.
>>> And yet they are used day in day out by thousands of businesses
>globally.
>>> Each MSD window is tedious - loading takes 16-20sec and
>inconsistent. LC
>>> html is a dream in comparison (despite its current bugs and
>screwups).
>>> 
>>> https://tariffanalyser.porrima.co.uk
>>> 
>>> Double click the circle icon to see some demo data and display 28k+
>>> records in a custom built DataGrid (coz datagrid2 is broken and mega
>slow
>>> at the moment).
>>> 
>>> That?s what I?m working on and it loads pretty fast in comparison.
>10
>>> seconds to download the app and engine, run, Connect to a list from
>MySQL
>>> via php, resize to fit the screen and display. (Note: this is not
>designed
>>> for mobile platforms)
>>> 
>>> Each sales agent will have a link on their desktop that will open up
>>> Chrome to this page as if opening a desktop app. And they can leave
>it open
>>> over night if they wish and come back to it the next morning after
>logging
>>> back into their machine.
>>> 
>>> This ?experiment? seems to be working.
>>> 
>>> Sean Cole
>>> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From jjs at krutt.org  Wed Oct  9 05:29:01 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 11:29:01 +0200
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <1F80CEED-5186-460E-BBB1-868090E3E40E@gmail.com>
References: <14F33FC8-4C95-4111-93BC-CD02EF415B05@hyperhh.de>
 <1F80CEED-5186-460E-BBB1-868090E3E40E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EDA84C8A-4C25-49BF-87D1-2880A9DF89DC@krutt.org>

To be honest, i tried revigniter and i'm convinced it is good and working for some. But somehow i can't get my head around it unfortunately. I'm also not using lc server, i stopped it, too less examples. So for now i'm replicating my android app as webapp using html and php as there are millions of examples which help to build very quickly. And maybe for one part where I don't exactly understand how to use php i perhaps try to use lc. Perhaps later i can try to rewrite some php parts to lc.

William Prothero via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 9 oktober 2019 04:10:31 CEST:
>Folks:
>I?m doing web stuff with php and Wordpress, and reading all of the
>postings about LC?s HTML5 deployment. Since I have done a lot of
>programming of LC and have a business license, it could be a lot easier
>to use LC in a server environment than struggling with my minimal php
>skills.
>
>The lessons for HTML5 are very, very minimal and leave a LOT
>unanswered. But, here?s what I think and perhaps you can correct any
>mis-conceptions. 
>
>HTML5 deployment is basically an app that is downloaded and runs in a
>browser. It?s kinda like Flash and Director, except that the ?plugin?
>is downloaded with the app and the browser runs the app in its built-in
>javascript engine. However, the tutorials for HTML5 are pretty much
>non-existent and I would expect a lot of hair-pulling (not that I have
>a lot of excess) in trying to use it.
>
>Using the livecode plugin is more in the style of php. Revigniter seems
>like a great application framework, and it uses the cgi mode of
>livecode. Revigniter seems like it would make building web sites using
>LC a lot easier, and would provide a lot of programming examples and
>handlers that would very much ease development.
>
>Has anybody use LC for a wordpress plugin? Or perhaps a basic wordpress
>site could exist alongside the LC supported site.
>
>What do you think? Feedback would be much appreciated.
>
>Best,
>Bill Prothero
>
>William A. Prothero
>http://earthlearningsolutions.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Oct  9 06:09:47 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 03:09:47 -0700
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <EDA84C8A-4C25-49BF-87D1-2880A9DF89DC@krutt.org>
References: <EDA84C8A-4C25-49BF-87D1-2880A9DF89DC@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <d70864fc-8134-403d-602b-ef58575b14e0@fourthworld.com>

Jjs wrote:

 > I'm also not using lc server, i stopped it, too less examples.

What functionality or topics would you like to see examples on?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From jjs at krutt.org  Wed Oct  9 07:41:35 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:41:35 +0200
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <d70864fc-8134-403d-602b-ef58575b14e0@fourthworld.com>
References: <EDA84C8A-4C25-49BF-87D1-2880A9DF89DC@krutt.org>
 <d70864fc-8134-403d-602b-ef58575b14e0@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <C7AB0AE2-1A23-48C7-881F-C2F9B6C6843E@krutt.org>

For example, how globals work between html pages like SESSIONS variables do in PHP. Or how values from buttons are picked up. I'm not unwilling to use it, but most servers already have php installed and therefore it is easier to use might one need to move to another server. The more when it is a shared hosting. Mostly they do not allow installation of lc server. I have now a small vps on which i can try it. It runs ok on xamp now. Finding do many examples on html and php shortens the time to build it.

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 9 oktober 2019 12:09:47 CEST:
>Jjs wrote:
>
> > I'm also not using lc server, i stopped it, too less examples.
>
>What functionality or topics would you like to see examples on?
>
>--
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  ____________________________________________________________________
>  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 07:55:30 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:55:30 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <8cacea5d-01eb-640a-62e1-1f0ac380f2df@fourthworld.com>
References: <CAG1h1VAiDYanJDBZ+VcNJTtmqh=5cRjqZfgnWn2qvjDkEFX8Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8cacea5d-01eb-640a-62e1-1f0ac380f2df@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VBcidts84ZyDEn5pukADbBSZE3dHyhmuyfrKAXLk3hRuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Richard,

I did absorb that - nearly 3 years ago - QED.

My major itch is the crowdfunding SPECIFICALLY for Sqlite , with a
manual and all that. I have gone round and round
in this, NOT as often as I should, but only when a thread gets my back up.

By the way I have 4 drafts I haven't sent (and Probably) won't for the last
two threads because I know it would incense some people , nothing personal
or ad homonym
but facts. Problem is facts these days are how you perceive them rather
than what they are -  twas ever thus.

I respect your opinions but if 2016 is the latest "main update", then  we
have a difference of opinion on what good communication is.

I'm asking simple questions and getting "fuzzy" or no answers. - and I
don't like that.

I still think LC has more to recommend it than Xojo, B4X, HAX, Python
(shouldn't even be  compared), Purebasic etc
Lazarus/Freepascal is definitely is totally cross platform and totally open
source but I like LC better even though I was an Apple  UCSD Pascal, Turbo
Pascal and  Delphi user
in my youf.

Regards Lagi


On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 at 21:43, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Lagi Pittas wrote:
>
>  > This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms - no
>  > communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
>  > as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what
>  > is the intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....
>  >
>  > here is a 2014 update  ...
>  >
>  > https://livecode.com/the-present-and-future-livecode/
>
> And here is a May 2016 update:
>
>
> https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/
>
>
> A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large
> number of times.
>
> How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent
> information is absorbed?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 08:15:09 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:15:09 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>
References: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>
 <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VD8SsyBf7+1n+b63T1pVQWCxTrc8XPhObhsbMh7x1vfqw@mail.gmail.com>

Now I'm a little peeved.

Richard said ....
"He's one of about three people who keep going back to the Kickstarter
list as some form of eternal damnation against the team, "

Forget about the kickstarter - I will say it one more time

There was crowd funding for a new Sqlite library  with a timescale of 3
months (lets assume i'm wrong -  6 months - whose counting) running at the
same time as that "update" of 2016.
Even if they were a year late that would be understandable but producing
nothing at all smacks of taking from Peter to pay Paul (there I said it).

Richard I understand that LC for FM is what they are betting the farm on
and I agree with them - I am just asking for some transparency - resources
allocated.
I'm not stupid to think that a small team can do everything promised  but
would 1 person allocated to finishing off all the other stuff be too much
too ask?

Lagi

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 03:57, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Pi Digital wrote:
>
>  >> On 8 Oct 2019, at 21:42, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>  >>
>  >> And here is a May 2016 update:
>  >>
>  >>
>
> https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large
>  >> number of times.
>  >>
>  >> How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent
>  >> information is absorbed?
>  >
>  > An excellent article. Which part was you pointing to in reference to
>  > Lagi?s question about older campaigns funded that have still not met
>  > the core?
>
> There's a section in the middle listing off the accomplishments since
> the Kickstarter, and some of the discussion goes into how much of that
> was paid for out-of-pocket.
>
>
>  > And which part do you refer to when asserting that absorption of info
>  > is needed to reduce the same conversations recursion rate?
>
> The portion of Lagi's post I had originally quoted in my reply:
>
>      This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms
>      - no communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
>      as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what
>      is the intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....
>
> He's one of about three people who keep going back to the Kickstarter
> list as some form of eternal damnation against the team, and he knows
> that I know that he's read comments here and in the forums from Kevin
> and other team members that have discussed all of that over and over and
> over and over again.
>
> How many times does Kevin need to post a mea culpa about being among the
> 80% of software project leaders that underestimated cost?  Apparently
> half a dozen isn't enough.
>
> In summary: Most of the list was delivered, most of the remainder is in
> the DB as feature requests to be completed as resources permit.
>
>
> Kevin, Heather, Mark and others have been very forthcoming here about
> what the company is working on, at least to the degree that this
> community allows.  But there's not much allowance granted:
>
> As they've explained many times, they've joined the majority of
> companies less willing to offer loose projections about delivery times
> precisely because of things like this.  If they give a projected
> deadline and circumstances change, it will become a dominant and
> repeated theme among a very small but very vocal minority.  This isn't
> unique to LC; their previous candor was a distinction.  Now they operate
> like everyone else, because the moment they dare to discuss anything not
> already in the can they expose themselves to a continuation of this same
> tediousness that every other company figured out how to avoid by keeping
> cards close.
>
> Wanna know what Apple's working on for 2020? Good luck.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Oct  9 08:26:43 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 05:26:43 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VBcidts84ZyDEn5pukADbBSZE3dHyhmuyfrKAXLk3hRuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VBcidts84ZyDEn5pukADbBSZE3dHyhmuyfrKAXLk3hRuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9173252-419f-aead-0a26-4b6e0a2b8eac@fourthworld.com>

Lagi Pittas wrote:

 > I did absorb that - nearly 3 years ago - QED.

It's three years more recent than the old list you keep raising.


 > My major itch is the crowdfunding SPECIFICALLY for Sqlite

Thank you! Specifics are the only way things can become actionable.

What needs to be done with SqLite?


 > with a manual and all that.

What should be considered within the scope of the manual?  LC itself is 
pretty well documented these days, as is SqLite.  What gap should we fill?

SqLite is very popular in our community.  I suspect it will not be hard 
to gather resources for a docs project like this once we define what it 
should cover.


 > I respect your opinions but if 2016 is the latest "main update",
 > then  we have a difference of opinion on what good communication is.

Yes, your reference to old materials being less than desirable is noted, 
which is why the fixation on a list twice as old is mystifying.

This mystery deepens considering the many discussions here and in the 
forums about the Kickstarter list in which you were a participant.  This 
has been covered, every several months, with the latest round being just 
a few months ago. I'm done repeating that conversation.

Moving forward...

Let's define specific actionable needs, and see what resources are 
needed to put them into place.

As an external, SqLite is particularly well suited for a wider range of 
people to update.  And as a popular component, we should be able to find 
the resources to enhance it.

If you would please describe what needs to be done in terms of 
functionality and docs, let's make it so.


 > I still think LC has more to recommend it than Xojo, B4X, HAX,
 > Python...

We have that in common, and I hope we always do.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 08:37:31 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:37:31 +0100
Subject: Live code for Filemaker 1.3 launched today
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VCEpTL_UEL8VvEF3DbJ30WVpycJpVTNShQ-N=bsqUYWfQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just to bolster what I said

https://filemaker.livecode.com/lcfm-native-1-3-faster-android-graphics-and-35-improvements/


And it has nice upgrades to the ExecuteSQL function talk about rubbing salt
in the wound.

I rest my case

Will that be put into the main system - if not why not? We could then have
(almost) the equivalent of Foxpro - where
we could intersperse  SQL statements within Foxpro statements and the
system looking after all the table pointers pointers.
Don't need promises or timescales just Yes or No  and reasons - again
nobody has answered.

Will the data binding code that must have been created for LCFM ever come
to LCs main branch - theoretically all the code is done and debugged  "all"
that would be needed is inserting into the main LC branch
I  would certainly fund something like that.


Lagi


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 08:40:00 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 15:40:00 +0300
Subject: De-Combine: stupid question number 4732
Message-ID: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>

So: I have a socking-great multidimensional array that I display in a 
table field by using

combine

as in:

combine myGUFF using return and tab
put myGUFF into field "completeGUFF"

but then I realise I want to go on working with my array "myGUFF"
but as it has been turned into some sort of delimited text variable
I need to convert it back to an array . . .

Richmond.



From thatkeith at mac.com  Wed Oct  9 08:42:36 2019
From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:42:36 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <1a704344-7137-ddee-1836-106cab27e8b3@sonic.net>
References: <16d9c718788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <f4f5e72e-69d0-dd8c-d184-e0e1f828be13@pair.com>
 <425BEAD1-EC72-49DE-9F25-D297218A4B3E@earthlearningsolutions.org>
 <247839d0-9e9b-239b-a351-ba6a62473703@gmail.com>
 <1a704344-7137-ddee-1836-106cab27e8b3@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <26D08F20-73C0-4566-A34E-F9438813B73F@mac.com>

I'm less than convinced by the crowdfunding ideas that have been 
mentioned so far. But there is something that is important to 
understand:

1. All Kickstarter campaigns are 'all-or-nothing.' From the Kickstarter 
FAQ: "No one will be charged for a pledge towards a project unless it 
reaches its funding goal."

2. Indiegogo campaigns are EITHER 'flexible funding' (the money is taken 
whether or not the goal was reached) OR 'fixed funding' (the same as 
Kickstarter).

Whether or not a crowdfunding angle is a good idea is a different issue. 
I just wanted to clarify the point about campaign goals and funding 
levels.

k


From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 08:42:41 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:42:41 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <c9173252-419f-aead-0a26-4b6e0a2b8eac@fourthworld.com>
References: <CAG1h1VBcidts84ZyDEn5pukADbBSZE3dHyhmuyfrKAXLk3hRuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c9173252-419f-aead-0a26-4b6e0a2b8eac@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VBXoPN5HY6715HE9ZX7MC05A5_PJdWnNvU0xd5A5f2ZVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Richard,

I don't want to get into a Slanging match and I would never make it
personal.
but  we were never even given a basic system to enhance - I Quote

"Finally, remember, that this will all be open source code, built and
included in the community edition ? you will be able to take it, adapt it
and help improve it!"

Now as you says let's move on

Sincere Regards Lagi



On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 13:29, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Lagi Pittas wrote:
>
>  > I did absorb that - nearly 3 years ago - QED.
>
> It's three years more recent than the old list you keep raising.
>
>
>  > My major itch is the crowdfunding SPECIFICALLY for Sqlite
>
> Thank you! Specifics are the only way things can become actionable.
>
> What needs to be done with SqLite?
>
>
>  > with a manual and all that.
>
> What should be considered within the scope of the manual?  LC itself is
> pretty well documented these days, as is SqLite.  What gap should we fill?
>
> SqLite is very popular in our community.  I suspect it will not be hard
> to gather resources for a docs project like this once we define what it
> should cover.
>
>
>  > I respect your opinions but if 2016 is the latest "main update",
>  > then  we have a difference of opinion on what good communication is.
>
> Yes, your reference to old materials being less than desirable is noted,
> which is why the fixation on a list twice as old is mystifying.
>
> This mystery deepens considering the many discussions here and in the
> forums about the Kickstarter list in which you were a participant.  This
> has been covered, every several months, with the latest round being just
> a few months ago. I'm done repeating that conversation.
>
> Moving forward...
>
> Let's define specific actionable needs, and see what resources are
> needed to put them into place.
>
> As an external, SqLite is particularly well suited for a wider range of
> people to update.  And as a popular component, we should be able to find
> the resources to enhance it.
>
> If you would please describe what needs to be done in terms of
> functionality and docs, let's make it so.
>
>
>  > I still think LC has more to recommend it than Xojo, B4X, HAX,
>  > Python...
>
> We have that in common, and I hope we always do.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Oct  9 08:43:35 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 05:43:35 -0700
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <C7AB0AE2-1A23-48C7-881F-C2F9B6C6843E@krutt.org>
References: <C7AB0AE2-1A23-48C7-881F-C2F9B6C6843E@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <15ddbe42-5450-d0c8-01f8-c9c5160ab163@fourthworld.com>

Jjs wrote:

 > Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >> What functionality or topics would you like to see examples on?
 >
 > For example, how globals work between html pages like SESSIONS
 > variables do in PHP.

It's quite similar to PHP IIRC, but I just went to look that up in the 
Server Guide and made an important discovery:

Apparently the Server Guide is no longer included in the Sever download.

Instead there's a copy of the Release Notes named as though they're 
specific to Server, but they don't seem to be.

I remember reading about session management, and I believe it was in the 
Server Guide.  Do any of you have a copy?  That would save me from 
poking around through the old builds until I find it.

Once we have it we can put it back into place in the build system as it 
used to be.


 > Or how values from buttons are picked up.

LC Server and PHP live on the sever, while any buttons are in the 
client's browser.  How do they communicate?  How would you do what you 
need there with PHP?

This one may help:

  How do I handle user input using LiveCode Server?
http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4070/l/36650-how-do-i-handle-user-input-using-livecode-server


 > I'm not unwilling to use it, but most servers already have php
 > installed and therefore it is easier to use might one need to move
 > to another server. The more when it is a shared hosting. Mostly
 > they do not allow installation of lc server.

Which hosts have you found disallow custom CGIs like LC Server?

I used to see that back in the old Perl-and-PHP-only days, but as more 
folks have been usin Python, Ruby, and other languages, I find hosts 
have warmed to the modern multilingual world.

If you recall one that doesn't maybe I can convince them to consider it. 
:)  I've had good luck with that with some ISPs.


 > Finding do many examples on html and php shortens the time to build
 > it.

The HTML knowledge will be the same, but yes, PHP has been on servers so 
much longer it definitely has more docs.  That's why I'm keen to learn 
more about what you were looking for with those.  Bit by bit we can 
flesh out the edges of the LC ecosystem to better reflect its new 
position in the Top 50 programming languages.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Oct  9 08:47:00 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 05:47:00 -0700
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VBXoPN5HY6715HE9ZX7MC05A5_PJdWnNvU0xd5A5f2ZVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VBXoPN5HY6715HE9ZX7MC05A5_PJdWnNvU0xd5A5f2ZVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2ddd437-f211-64f2-27f2-326701797253@fourthworld.com>

Lagi Pittas -

 > I don't want to get into a Slanging match and I would never make it
 > personal. but  we were never even given a basic system to enhance -
 > I Quote
 >
 > "Finally, remember, that this will all be open source code, built and
 > included in the community edition ? you will be able to take it, adapt
 > it and help improve it!"


https://github.com/livecode/livecode

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From klaus at major-k.de  Wed Oct  9 08:48:04 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:48:04 +0200
Subject: De-Combine: stupid question number 4732
In-Reply-To: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>
References: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23438566-7891-4E93-8B34-C2E8B791A9AF@major-k.de>

Hi Richmond,

> Am 09.10.2019 um 14:40 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> So: I have a socking-great multidimensional array that I display in a table field by using
> combine
> as in:
> combine myGUFF using return and tab
> put myGUFF into field "completeGUFF"
> but then I realise I want to go on working with my array "myGUFF"
> but as it has been turned into some sort of delimited text variable
> I need to convert it back to an array . . .
> Richmond.

the opposite of COMBINE= SPLIT


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Oct  9 08:53:16 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:53:16 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <f2ddd437-f211-64f2-27f2-326701797253@fourthworld.com>
References: <f2ddd437-f211-64f2-27f2-326701797253@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <2E167AE8-0DFF-4DFC-B5C0-CDAC5E910D6B@pidigital.co.uk>

Can you provide the full link to the SQLite feature that was funded?

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 9 Oct 2019, at 13:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Oct  9 08:55:16 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 05:55:16 -0700
Subject: De-Combine: stupid question number 4732
In-Reply-To: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>
References: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0d56946b-8a95-dd19-7793-2bb416d4fb5e@fourthworld.com>

Richmond wrote:

> So: I have a socking-great multidimensional array that I display in a 
> table field by using
> 
> combine
> 
> as in:
> 
> combine myGUFF using return and tab
> put myGUFF into field "completeGUFF"
> 
> but then I realise I want to go on working with my array "myGUFF"
> but as it has been turned into some sort of delimited text variable
> I need to convert it back to an array . . .

Multidimensional arrays don't lend themselves well to tabular 
presentation or the split/combine commands.

But if all you're looking for is display, would the tree widget help?

You can assign any array to the widget's arrayData, with some handy 
options in the Inspector for how things are displayed.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Oct  9 09:00:47 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:00:47 +0100
Subject: De-Combine: stupid question number 4732
In-Reply-To: <0d56946b-8a95-dd19-7793-2bb416d4fb5e@fourthworld.com>
References: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>
 <0d56946b-8a95-dd19-7793-2bb416d4fb5e@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSRku3f2RnSgym2_2_hu9eqxmEAsAT8x3KJcmWXE0S_yaA@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote and use this. Is it any use to you?:

function splitTable pData, pDel
   set the itemdel to pDel
   repeat with rNum = 1 to the number of lines in pData
      put item 2 to 50 of line 1 of pData into tListA[item 1 of pData]
      delete line 1 of pData
   end repeat
   return tListA
end splitTable

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital *
'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
box!'
'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
but it is yourself!'

eMail Ts & Cs <http://pidigital.co.uk/emailTCs.rtf>   Pi Digital
Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609


On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 13:55, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Richmond wrote:
>
> > So: I have a socking-great multidimensional array that I display in a
> > table field by using
> >
> > combine
> >
> > as in:
> >
> > combine myGUFF using return and tab
> > put myGUFF into field "completeGUFF"
> >
> > but then I realise I want to go on working with my array "myGUFF"
> > but as it has been turned into some sort of delimited text variable
> > I need to convert it back to an array . . .
>
> Multidimensional arrays don't lend themselves well to tabular
> presentation or the split/combine commands.
>
> But if all you're looking for is display, would the tree widget help?
>
> You can assign any array to the widget's arrayData, with some handy
> options in the Inspector for how things are displayed.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From rabit at revigniter.com  Wed Oct  9 09:36:22 2019
From: rabit at revigniter.com (Ralf Bitter)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 15:36:22 +0200
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <15ddbe42-5450-d0c8-01f8-c9c5160ab163@fourthworld.com>
References: <C7AB0AE2-1A23-48C7-881F-C2F9B6C6843E@krutt.org>
 <15ddbe42-5450-d0c8-01f8-c9c5160ab163@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <E184D78E-4437-48FB-89A9-4E3BAE581929@revigniter.com>



> On 9. Oct 2019, at 14:43, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I remember reading about session management, and I believe it was in the Server Guide.  Do any of you have a copy?  That would save me from poking around through the old builds until I find it.
> 
> Once we have it we can put it back into place in the build system as it used to be.


Richard, I found the ?Server Deployment Release Notes? revision 18.
It includes all you need to know about sessions using LC server.
If that is what you are looking for I can send it to you.

Ralf

From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 10:04:09 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:04:09 +0300
Subject: De-Combine: stupid question number 4732
In-Reply-To: <23438566-7891-4E93-8B34-C2E8B791A9AF@major-k.de>
References: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>
 <23438566-7891-4E93-8B34-C2E8B791A9AF@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <e9e313ae-a56e-9a0b-658f-537c42eb85ee@gmail.com>

Thanks! That's great.

On 9.10.19 15:48, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi Richmond,
>
>> Am 09.10.2019 um 14:40 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>
>> So: I have a socking-great multidimensional array that I display in a table field by using
>> combine
>> as in:
>> combine myGUFF using return and tab
>> put myGUFF into field "completeGUFF"
>> but then I realise I want to go on working with my array "myGUFF"
>> but as it has been turned into some sort of delimited text variable
>> I need to convert it back to an array . . .
>> Richmond.
> the opposite of COMBINE= SPLIT
>
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
>
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct  9 10:17:49 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 10:17:49 -0400
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <0f6e4167-15db-63b6-7720-a19b45b02528@researchware.com>

Agree!

With all the billions of $$$ Apple has, they certainly could have 
afforded to maintain 32-bit compatibility for smaller developers who 
can't afford to make every change Apple demands, but they make more 
profits if they don't.

Sorry to any Apple fanatics. I just needed to vent my frustration at 
Apple's dictatorial development model.

On 10/8/2019 9:52 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
> "Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
> What a beautiful sounding name!
>
> But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
> (I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
> for speed.
>
> I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
> TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.
>
> May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
> But it's kind of a burial.   :-((
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>




From brahma at hindu.org  Wed Oct  9 10:22:48 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:22:48 +0000
Subject: Get Definition
In-Reply-To: <a50f0f59-f310-8e39-8975-1972b5e45cd1@sonic.net>
References: <50B8E216-B890-4FF6-A5D9-2EB7D2D0FB70@hindu.org>
 <f6fec727-b642-2660-69f4-cbfb21e19bfd@sonic.net>
 <C9B8A17A-D19F-4D82-9145-3C97D23DDB3B@hindu.org>
 <16da6df0a10.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <44c99243-69fa-34b8-0f65-bccf90610de3@sonic.net>
 <16da70d2aa8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <7462cb65-efad-beee-ec40-310cc3532c17@sonic.net>
 <16da9df49f0.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <63f8897a-91e6-4b39-a5e5-4376aa99c1ca@Spark>
 <a50f0f59-f310-8e39-8975-1972b5e45cd1@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <670DA1B3-6F56-4E1D-98CA-9F9EB56E4E5B@hindu.org>

As Jacqueline said, on init the app puts all models, and libraries in using?.

If you using a stack that has behaviors, they are "naturally" open when because the stack, cards open. I need to check,

Yes, BBEdit or Sublime or  Atom works fine?




On 10/8/19 5:30 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> I?ve noticed it on that project as well, but have not narrowed down the symptoms.  I know that the definition is available at times and will need to look at it.  I have a project set up in Atom that makes searching the stack only scripts easy.

...otherwise known as grep <g>

--
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com<mailto:ahsoftware at gmail.com>

From brahma at hindu.org  Wed Oct  9 10:27:56 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:27:56 +0000
Subject: Stop Processing a Web Connection
In-Reply-To: <A483FF5F-88AF-4C19-AE4A-059E6F9C4565@hindu.org>
References: <A483FF5F-88AF-4C19-AE4A-059E6F9C4565@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <BCB4F2B7-4297-478D-BA31-39B071F9DF20@hindu.org>

Charles responded off list, this may be useful to others:

=========

Unfortunately tsNet doesn?t get involved in the browser widget?s network communications, so I can?t help there...

However, the best way to stop UI hangs is to use the tsNet asynchronous (non-blocking) functions so that all network calls happen in the background and let tsNet send a message to the application when the transfer is complete.

While this does require some changes to your application design, it removes any dependancy on a network transfer completing for the application to continue to operate.

You can also use the tsNetCloseConn function with the asynchronous commands to cancel a network transfer in progress.

Hope that helps,

Regards,

Charles


I think I have found a bug in our mobile app?. which is that:

If there is poor bandwidth, say, when the user is trying to get a video in??the browser widget, or the there is a direct call for other resources from our API (images, audio for player, big XML/Json. etc)??the UI hangs. They click a "Go Back" button, but it think that app is trying to (unsuccessufully) process the connection

Now users are typically aware that they have bandwidth issues. For now I don?t want to complicate things by using "tsNetSetTimeouts" to give the user detailed info--maybe in a later version. 

I just want??have them to disconnect as soon as they touch a button, typically a "go back" button.

I keep a TSNET api document at my side. I only??find two options, as soon as the user says in their mind "I going to bail on this" and hit something, should we use:

tsNetclose

tsNetLibUrlReuseConnection false

?

Any other suggestions on the general architecture to address this scenario will also be appreciated.

BR

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mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Oct  9 10:38:01 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 15:38:01 +0100
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <0f6e4167-15db-63b6-7720-a19b45b02528@researchware.com>
References: <0f6e4167-15db-63b6-7720-a19b45b02528@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <FA66667F-16A8-40E8-BDC2-9FFF3D68F376@pidigital.co.uk>

I?m not sure about profits of 64bit other than they now don?t have to pay a separate team to keep maintaining out of date 32bit support. 

Here?s a list of alternative options. I personally am going to have Parallels with Mojave and SnowLeopard available (as well as Win10, 7 and Ubuntu and Raspbian of course). 

https://macpaw.com/how-to/32-bit-apps-not-working-catalina

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 9 Oct 2019, at 15:17, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> they make more profits if they don't


From hakan at exformedia.se  Wed Oct  9 10:46:20 2019
From: hakan at exformedia.se (hakan at exformedia.se)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:46:20 +0200
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <0f6e4167-15db-63b6-7720-a19b45b02528@researchware.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <0f6e4167-15db-63b6-7720-a19b45b02528@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <a3b86dcd-348f-46a9-9982-372b4e648c06@Spark>

So, maybe I?m an Apple fanatic but here goes?

By dropping 32-bit support Apple doesn?t need to update 2 pairs of system libraries, as most 32-bit applications requires 32-bit libraries to work. Thus it would also be possible to save some disk space (as I only need 64-bit). This also means that the system doesn?t need to keep two versions of a library in memory. I.e. I will save RAM in my machine. And of course the developers needed to maintain the 32-bit libs can now concentrate on other things. Yes, I know Apple has more $$$$ than several countries, but they still lack good engineers in many areas.

But, yes, old 32-bit only versions of apps like old versions of LiveCode will stop working. But, if you have a newer version of LiveCode there is not that much work that needs to be done to turn your app into a 64-bit version. If you are lucky you just do a new ?Save as stand-alone?. If you are not that lucky you might need to rewrite some code, but I must say that LiveCode have done a great job being backwards compatible. I can still open several HyperCard stacks in LiveCode!

On top of that you I can run older versions of MacOS in a virtual machine (like Parallels Desktop) if I really need to. Or I can keep an old installation on a separate hard drive and boot from that when needed.

Just installed Catalina, so tomorrow I might think totally different ;)

:-H?kan
On 9 Oct 2019, 16:18 +0200, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> Agree!
>
> With all the billions of $$$ Apple has, they certainly could have
> afforded to maintain 32-bit compatibility for smaller developers who
> can't afford to make every change Apple demands, but they make more
> profits if they don't.
>
> Sorry to any Apple fanatics. I just needed to vent my frustration at
> Apple's dictatorial development model.
>
> On 10/8/2019 9:52 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
> > "Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
> > What a beautiful sounding name!
> >
> > But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
> > (I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
> > for speed.
> >
> > I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
> > TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.
> >
> > May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
> > But it's kind of a burial. :-((
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 10:47:07 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:47:07 +0300
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <0f6e4167-15db-63b6-7720-a19b45b02528@researchware.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <0f6e4167-15db-63b6-7720-a19b45b02528@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <aa341ba0-1e10-d405-3a97-5b0076c6d7d7@gmail.com>

I'm an "Apple fanatic", so much so that I have to have these:

1. 2018 MacMini for up to date stuff.

2. 64-bit Intel iMac.

3. 32-bit Intel iMac.

4. G5 iMac.

Because Apple with their obsession for making things obsolescent have left
me with an awful lot of very useful software that I have paid for (or 
been paid with)
that I still wish to use, but could not were I always to use the "latest 
and greatest."

My Spreadsheet-of-choice is still the one in ClarisWorks/AppleWorks 6.

Bryce 7 doesn't work on a computer running anything later than Mac OS 
10.6.8.

HyperCard runs under the "Classic" thing on Mac OS 10.4.11 on one of my 
2 G5 iMacs.

My "main beef" with Apple is their planned obsolescence linked with 
their expensive hardware
means that while they can build fancy ring-shaped buildings . . .

Ok, OK, let's have an irrelevant fact here just to distract ourselves 
from Apple's perfidy:

The famous Scottish film star David Niven introduced water-skiing to the 
United States off Catalina island.

On 9.10.19 17:17, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:
> Agree!
>
> With all the billions of $$$ Apple has, they certainly could have 
> afforded to maintain 32-bit compatibility for smaller developers who 
> can't afford to make every change Apple demands, but they make more 
> profits if they don't.
>
> Sorry to any Apple fanatics. I just needed to vent my frustration at 
> Apple's dictatorial development model.
>
> On 10/8/2019 9:52 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
>> "Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
>> What a beautiful sounding name!
>>
>> But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
>> (I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
>> for speed.
>>
>> I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
>> TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.
>>
>> May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
>> But it's kind of a burial.?? :-((
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jjs at krutt.org  Wed Oct  9 11:01:34 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 17:01:34 +0200
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <2E167AE8-0DFF-4DFC-B5C0-CDAC5E910D6B@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <f2ddd437-f211-64f2-27f2-326701797253@fourthworld.com>
 <2E167AE8-0DFF-4DFC-B5C0-CDAC5E910D6B@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2500A127-F9F1-401C-AD60-6EC1248CDB40@krutt.org>

I think i miss some understanding from my part. Sqlite is supported and working ok right. So what's this with this library?  Then second, Heather said that things now in FM will flow back into lc.

Pi Digital via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 9 oktober 2019 14:53:16 CEST:
>Can you provide the full link to the SQLite feature that was funded?
>
>Sean Cole
>Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>
>> On 9 Oct 2019, at 13:47, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
><use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> https://github.com/livecode/livecode
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  9 11:01:58 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 15:01:58 +0000
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>
References: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>
 <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <696B580B-0758-4EE4-AF56-8E67ECE2B1F0@iotecdigital.com>

+1 Richard. I got onboard with what user to be Runtime Revolution (I think it was version 2!) Where livecode is today is orders of magnitude more than it was when it first started. There was no datagrid. No way to display tabular data apart from a very simple table field. No arrays. Difficult and confusing database APIs. No mobile support. The list goes on. 

LC is like a really good girlfriend. She isn't everything I ever wanted, but she's good enough for me. :-)

Bob S


> On Oct 8, 2019, at 19:49 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Pi Digital wrote:
> 
> >> On 8 Oct 2019, at 21:42, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >>
> >> And here is a May 2016 update:
> >>
> >> https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/
> >>
> >>
> >> A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large
> >> number of times.
> >>
> >> How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent
> >> information is absorbed?
> >
> > An excellent article. Which part was you pointing to in reference to
> > Lagi?s question about older campaigns funded that have still not met
> > the core?
> 
> There's a section in the middle listing off the accomplishments since the Kickstarter, and some of the discussion goes into how much of that was paid for out-of-pocket.
> 
> 
> > And which part do you refer to when asserting that absorption of info
> > is needed to reduce the same conversations recursion rate?
> 
> The portion of Lagi's post I had originally quoted in my reply:
> 
>    This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms
>    - no communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
>    as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what
>    is the intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....
> 
> He's one of about three people who keep going back to the Kickstarter list as some form of eternal damnation against the team, and he knows that I know that he's read comments here and in the forums from Kevin and other team members that have discussed all of that over and over and over and over again.
> 
> How many times does Kevin need to post a mea culpa about being among the 80% of software project leaders that underestimated cost?  Apparently half a dozen isn't enough.
> 
> In summary: Most of the list was delivered, most of the remainder is in the DB as feature requests to be completed as resources permit.
> 
> 
> Kevin, Heather, Mark and others have been very forthcoming here about what the company is working on, at least to the degree that this community allows.  But there's not much allowance granted:
> 
> As they've explained many times, they've joined the majority of companies less willing to offer loose projections about delivery times precisely because of things like this.  If they give a projected deadline and circumstances change, it will become a dominant and repeated theme among a very small but very vocal minority.  This isn't unique to LC; their previous candor was a distinction.  Now they operate like everyone else, because the moment they dare to discuss anything not already in the can they expose themselves to a continuation of this same tediousness that every other company figured out how to avoid by keeping cards close.
> 
> Wanna know what Apple's working on for 2020? Good luck.
> 
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From preid at reidit.co.uk  Wed Oct  9 07:25:56 2019
From: preid at reidit.co.uk (Peter Reid)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:25:56 +0100
Subject: Building Android Apps
Message-ID: <E79F09FC-242D-4F3D-9F79-A355E92CE479@reidit.co.uk>

I've been building Android apps using my iMac for some time. However, yesterday I started to get an error message "Failure [INSTALL_FAILED_VERSION_DOWNGRADE]" when I try to build an Android standalone app. Any ideas what's causing this and how to fix it?

Separately I'd like to be able to build Android apps on my 15in MacBook Pro so I can do on-the-fly fixes when out and about. However I can't find up-to-date instructions for installing Android support. Some searches produce various suggestions including LiveCode tutorials about setting up a Mac to work with LiveCode and Android but they all seem to be out of date and contradict each other. In addition there's no advice for how to get to a clean state of Java and Android.

Can anyone point to up-to-date details for setting up a Mac to create Android apps with minimal installation of supporting technologies, both as a clean set-up and how to clean up JDK and SDK support if necessary?

Thanks

Peter
--
Peter Reid
Loughborough, UK




From heather at livecode.com  Wed Oct  9 11:16:21 2019
From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:16:21 +0100
Subject: Building Android Apps
In-Reply-To: <E79F09FC-242D-4F3D-9F79-A355E92CE479@reidit.co.uk>
References: <E79F09FC-242D-4F3D-9F79-A355E92CE479@reidit.co.uk>
Message-ID: <317ECDD0-2D7F-4ACA-AFC6-0D0560140639@livecode.com>

Peter -

This is intended as the definitive and up to date guide to getting set up for Android app building with LiveCode:

http://lessons.livecode.com/m/2571/l/625198-livecode-and-android-studio <http://lessons.livecode.com/m/2571/l/625198-livecode-and-android-studio>

If it is not up to date, if you try it and fail, if you get some mysterious error etc please leave a comment on the lesson. We will investigate and update the lesson if needed.

Best Regards,

Heather


Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 9 Oct 2019, at 12:25, Peter Reid via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I've been building Android apps using my iMac for some time. However, yesterday I started to get an error message "Failure [INSTALL_FAILED_VERSION_DOWNGRADE]" when I try to build an Android standalone app. Any ideas what's causing this and how to fix it?
> 
> Separately I'd like to be able to build Android apps on my 15in MacBook Pro so I can do on-the-fly fixes when out and about. However I can't find up-to-date instructions for installing Android support. Some searches produce various suggestions including LiveCode tutorials about setting up a Mac to work with LiveCode and Android but they all seem to be out of date and contradict each other. In addition there's no advice for how to get to a clean state of Java and Android.
> 
> Can anyone point to up-to-date details for setting up a Mac to create Android apps with minimal installation of supporting technologies, both as a clean set-up and how to clean up JDK and SDK support if necessary?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Peter
> --
> Peter Reid
> Loughborough, UK
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  9 11:16:29 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 15:16:29 +0000
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>

Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that you don't HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your version of LC to become obsolete. YOU DID! 

That being said, you can probably downgrade, especially if your hardware is so old that you still have instalation DVDs for it. If not, there are articles on how to downgrade. Carbon Copy Cloner will be your friend if you have to wipe and reinstall to make that happen. 

Bob S


> On Oct 8, 2019, at 18:52 , hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> "Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
> What a beautiful sounding name!
> 
> But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
> (I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
> for speed.
> 
> I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
> TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.
> 
> May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
> But it's kind of a burial.   :-((
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  9 11:18:50 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 15:18:50 +0000
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <3D12E818-1E1D-4062-85BC-078C26670CE9@iotecdigital.com>

I forgot to mention that if you didn't already create a CCC full backup or a Time Machine backup prior to the upgrade... well... there's that. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 08:16 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that you don't HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your version of LC to become obsolete. YOU DID! 
> 
> That being said, you can probably downgrade, especially if your hardware is so old that you still have instalation DVDs for it. If not, there are articles on how to downgrade. Carbon Copy Cloner will be your friend if you have to wipe and reinstall to make that happen. 
> 
> Bob S




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  9 11:21:02 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 15:21:02 +0000
Subject: De-Combine: stupid question number 4732
In-Reply-To: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>
References: <9ef34b12-f0d1-3948-171a-2fe9ac0b6b39@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5963BB54-530B-438A-A851-25BAC476C349@iotecdigital.com>

In addition to other suggestions, you can "store" a multidimensional array in a hidden datagrid, then get or set the dgData or the dgText. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 05:40 , Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> So: I have a socking-great multidimensional array that I display in a table field by using
> 
> combine
> 
> as in:
> 
> combine myGUFF using return and tab
> put myGUFF into field "completeGUFF"
> 
> but then I realise I want to go on working with my array "myGUFF"
> but as it has been turned into some sort of delimited text variable
> I need to convert it back to an array . . .
> 
> Richmond.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Wed Oct  9 11:31:49 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:31:49 +0100
Subject: De-Combine: stupid question number 4732
In-Reply-To: <5963BB54-530B-438A-A851-25BAC476C349@iotecdigital.com>
References: <5963BB54-530B-438A-A851-25BAC476C349@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <BC8CDFF8-04FE-44FE-A796-F89756F0CBA7@pidigital.co.uk>

Or use ArrayToJSON and JSONtoArray. This is my preferred method (that is not available for HTML5 deployment yet, hence the Split/CombineTable functions). 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 9 Oct 2019, at 16:21, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?In addition to other suggestions, you can "store" a multidimensional array in a hidden datagrid, then get or set the dgData or the dgText. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 05:40 , Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> So: I have a socking-great multidimensional array that I display in a table field by using
>> 
>> combine
>> 
>> as in:
>> 
>> combine myGUFF using return and tab
>> put myGUFF into field "completeGUFF"
>> 
>> but then I realise I want to go on working with my array "myGUFF"
>> but as it has been turned into some sort of delimited text variable
>> I need to convert it back to an array . . .
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From brian at milby7.com  Wed Oct  9 11:39:36 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:39:36 -0400
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <3D12E818-1E1D-4062-85BC-078C26670CE9@iotecdigital.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <3D12E818-1E1D-4062-85BC-078C26670CE9@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <0c3ff75a-3e14-4924-9c5d-e2d5d2ae0b0b@Spark>

Ah yes, backups. ?I make it a habit to capture an image of my drive before and after any OS upgrade. ?CCC works well, but I just use Apple?s tools.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 9, 2019, 11:19 AM -0400, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> I forgot to mention that if you didn't already create a CCC full backup or a Time Machine backup prior to the upgrade... well... there's that.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 2019, at 08:16 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that you don't HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your version of LC to become obsolete. YOU DID!
> >
> > That being said, you can probably downgrade, especially if your hardware is so old that you still have instalation DVDs for it. If not, there are articles on how to downgrade. Carbon Copy Cloner will be your friend if you have to wipe and reinstall to make that happen.
> >
> > Bob S
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From preid at reidit.co.uk  Wed Oct  9 07:25:56 2019
From: preid at reidit.co.uk (Peter Reid)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:25:56 +0100
Subject: Building Android Apps
Message-ID: <E79F09FC-242D-4F3D-9F79-A355E92CE479@reidit.co.uk>

I've been building Android apps using my iMac for some time. However, yesterday I started to get an error message "Failure [INSTALL_FAILED_VERSION_DOWNGRADE]" when I try to build an Android standalone app. Any ideas what's causing this and how to fix it?

Separately I'd like to be able to build Android apps on my 15in MacBook Pro so I can do on-the-fly fixes when out and about. However I can't find up-to-date instructions for installing Android support. Some searches produce various suggestions including LiveCode tutorials about setting up a Mac to work with LiveCode and Android but they all seem to be out of date and contradict each other. In addition there's no advice for how to get to a clean state of Java and Android.

Can anyone point to up-to-date details for setting up a Mac to create Android apps with minimal installation of supporting technologies, both as a clean set-up and how to clean up JDK and SDK support if necessary?

Thanks

Peter
--
Peter Reid
Loughborough, UK




From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct  9 11:50:40 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:50:40 -0400
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>

Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will 
only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer 
and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or 
business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps 
as part of a planned upgrade cycle).

In either case, after they or some IT person has helped with the OS 
update, suddenly some of their software (including ours) no longer works 
(being 32-bit). They don't know why. They don't care why.

Now as for the "Well, Apple has been notifying you forever that, as a 
developer, you needed to be at 64 bits" or "But if you make your apps in 
LiveCode, just recompile with LiveCode 9"

Our apps have hundreds of thousands of line of code. In migrating them 
to LiveCode 9, at first they would not even run. In the course of 
migrating, Researchware staff has filed some 40 Livecode 9 bugs, some of 
which have no or no good workarounds, that directly impact features of 
our apps. Thankfully, most have work-arounds, but work-arounds and 
testing take time. Now for the record, LiveCode, Ltd. has been 
absolutely great in suggesting work-arounds or helping us work through 
the most serious of the bugs.

Our customers do not need 64 bits. Our very niche software does what it 
needs to do in 32 bits. Our customer have no disk space issues or memory 
issues due to both 32 and 64 bits libraries or support. Our customers 
would all be very happy to just keep using our tools as is. Hence, my 
venting is about Apple's intentionally planned obsolescence. What our 
customers want in new versions is not 64 bit, but functional 
enhancements to what our software does.

Being a small (very small), we have sunk a year of development in to 
getting to LC9 for 64 bit and making sure what we have in our app just 
works (QA testing!). We have had no resources to work on new or enhanced 
features. So our customers get an upgrade, with almost nothing new 
except 64 bit support, which also means with nothing new, we can't in 
good conscious charge an upgrade fee for it. Which means lost revenue, 
which badly hurts our small business.

Should we have migrated to LC9 sooner? Probably, but doing so would have 
meant - as it does now - only doing the migration and not new 
features/revenue. Also doing in now, we still found 40 bugs. If we did 
it a year or two ago, how many more bugs would we have found that have 
since been fixed!

That's what Catalina represents to us. I realize that many many Apple 
customers will be delighted with Catalina and I am happy for them. I 
just wish that Apple cared a bit more about not breaking what came 
before. Say what you will about Microsoft, but I still have specialty 
applications written for Windows 2000/XP that run fine under Windows 10! 
Microsoft is guilty of many many sins, but **for the most part** they 
try to keep things that once once worked still working.



From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Wed Oct  9 11:50:39 2019
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:50:39 +0200
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <D917CD2A-67AD-46DB-ABDE-ACC1233C6F4B@m-r-d.de>



Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>
> Am 09.10.2019 um 17:16 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that you don't HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your version of LC to become obsolete. YOU DID! 
> 
Thanks Bot, i thought the same, but did not dare to write it.



>> On Oct 8, 2019, at 18:52 , hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> "Catalina is a girl's name of Spanish origin meaning 'pure'".
>> What a beautiful sounding name!
>> 
>> But MacOS Catalina is a pure killer. Killed my beloved LC 6/7
>> (I need for development of Raspi stacks) and sometimes need
>> for speed.
>> 
>> I learned LiveCode using LC 6 in 2013.
>> TMHO, LC 6.7.11 was the most complete LC version ever made.
>> 
>> May be I'll use one older machine only for using LC 6/7.
>> But it's kind of a burial.   :-((
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From jjs at krutt.org  Wed Oct  9 11:56:18 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 17:56:18 +0200
Subject: Building Android Apps
In-Reply-To: <E79F09FC-242D-4F3D-9F79-A355E92CE479@reidit.co.uk>
References: <E79F09FC-242D-4F3D-9F79-A355E92CE479@reidit.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C39F67E3-3CE3-4356-9220-33D779EC577A@krutt.org>

It means you are trying to install or push a build with lower version or version code than the one already on it. If it still not works after changing your app version, then remove it from the device and then push it to it again.

Peter Reid via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 9 oktober 2019 13:25:56 CEST:
>I've been building Android apps using my iMac for some time. However,
>yesterday I started to get an error message "Failure
>[INSTALL_FAILED_VERSION_DOWNGRADE]" when I try to build an Android
>standalone app. Any ideas what's causing this and how to fix it?
>
>Separately I'd like to be able to build Android apps on my 15in MacBook
>Pro so I can do on-the-fly fixes when out and about. However I can't
>find up-to-date instructions for installing Android support. Some
>searches produce various suggestions including LiveCode tutorials about
>setting up a Mac to work with LiveCode and Android but they all seem to
>be out of date and contradict each other. In addition there's no advice
>for how to get to a clean state of Java and Android.
>
>Can anyone point to up-to-date details for setting up a Mac to create
>Android apps with minimal installation of supporting technologies, both
>as a clean set-up and how to clean up JDK and SDK support if necessary?
>
>Thanks
>
>Peter
>--
>Peter Reid
>Loughborough, UK
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From jjs at krutt.org  Wed Oct  9 11:57:50 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 17:57:50 +0200
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <15ddbe42-5450-d0c8-01f8-c9c5160ab163@fourthworld.com>
References: <C7AB0AE2-1A23-48C7-881F-C2F9B6C6843E@krutt.org>
 <15ddbe42-5450-d0c8-01f8-c9c5160ab163@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <4D15BF5D-04B5-443F-B22A-E9240244C227@krutt.org>

That would be great thanks!

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 9 oktober 2019 14:43:35 CEST:
>Jjs wrote:
>
> > Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >> What functionality or topics would you like to see examples on?
> >
> > For example, how globals work between html pages like SESSIONS
> > variables do in PHP.
>
>It's quite similar to PHP IIRC, but I just went to look that up in the 
>Server Guide and made an important discovery:
>
>Apparently the Server Guide is no longer included in the Sever
>download.
>
>Instead there's a copy of the Release Notes named as though they're 
>specific to Server, but they don't seem to be.
>
>I remember reading about session management, and I believe it was in
>the 
>Server Guide.  Do any of you have a copy?  That would save me from 
>poking around through the old builds until I find it.
>
>Once we have it we can put it back into place in the build system as it
>
>used to be.
>
>
> > Or how values from buttons are picked up.
>
>LC Server and PHP live on the sever, while any buttons are in the 
>client's browser.  How do they communicate?  How would you do what you 
>need there with PHP?
>
>This one may help:
>
>  How do I handle user input using LiveCode Server?
>http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4070/l/36650-how-do-i-handle-user-input-using-livecode-server
>
>
> > I'm not unwilling to use it, but most servers already have php
> > installed and therefore it is easier to use might one need to move
> > to another server. The more when it is a shared hosting. Mostly
> > they do not allow installation of lc server.
>
>Which hosts have you found disallow custom CGIs like LC Server?
>
>I used to see that back in the old Perl-and-PHP-only days, but as more 
>folks have been usin Python, Ruby, and other languages, I find hosts 
>have warmed to the modern multilingual world.
>
>If you recall one that doesn't maybe I can convince them to consider
>it. 
>:)  I've had good luck with that with some ISPs.
>
>
> > Finding do many examples on html and php shortens the time to build
> > it.
>
>The HTML knowledge will be the same, but yes, PHP has been on servers
>so 
>much longer it definitely has more docs.  That's why I'm keen to learn 
>more about what you were looking for with those.  Bit by bit we can 
>flesh out the edges of the LC ecosystem to better reflect its new 
>position in the Top 50 programming languages.
>
>-- 
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  ____________________________________________________________________
>  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From jjs at krutt.org  Wed Oct  9 12:00:22 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:00:22 +0200
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <E184D78E-4437-48FB-89A9-4E3BAE581929@revigniter.com>
References: <C7AB0AE2-1A23-48C7-881F-C2F9B6C6843E@krutt.org>
 <15ddbe42-5450-d0c8-01f8-c9c5160ab163@fourthworld.com>
 <E184D78E-4437-48FB-89A9-4E3BAE581929@revigniter.com>
Message-ID: <C00C6B86-6249-4F46-B2C4-A75E717C2EF5@krutt.org>

@Ralf, is it possible you can put it on the forum as a zip? In the lc server section?

Ralf Bitter via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 9 oktober 2019 15:36:22 CEST:
>
>
>> On 9. Oct 2019, at 14:43, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
><use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I remember reading about session management, and I believe it was in
>the Server Guide.  Do any of you have a copy?  That would save me from
>poking around through the old builds until I find it.
>> 
>> Once we have it we can put it back into place in the build system as
>it used to be.
>
>
>Richard, I found the ?Server Deployment Release Notes? revision 18.
>It includes all you need to know about sessions using LC server.
>If that is what you are looking for I can send it to you.
>
>Ralf
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  9 12:02:15 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:02:15 +0000
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <D31BD6B7-DDE8-419E-89A1-151AE2DDD66B@iotecdigital.com>

It's a good point. If any commercial developers using LC (or ANY dev environment) are going to have issues with Catalina, it might be a good idea to mail blast them and warn them if your app is not going to be compatible, and even provide a general time frame for when they will be. 

Also, I think the advice to make sure a full backup is made before a major OS update cannot be overstressed. Customers who fail to do this and then find that not only are LC 32 bit apps not going to run but a LOT of other apps won't either, and then have no way to revert, really need to bear some responsibility for this. 

I know that is not something you can tell a customer, but this issue is not unique to LC, so everyone who uses a computer at all, should already be aware of the issues that can arise when upgrading an entire OS. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 08:50 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps as part of a planned upgrade cycle).




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Oct  9 12:29:50 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 11:29:50 -0500
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the company 
that makes my accounting software warning customers not to upgrade to 
Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition for a year and 
thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. They were quite 
up-front about it, said they were working hard and would let us know when 
it was ready.

That seemed thoughtful, and probably saved them a lot of tech support as 
well. On the other hand, I almost never upgrade to the first release of a 
major dot-zero version. I wait for the wrinkles to shake out.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 9, 2019 10:52:25 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will
> only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer
> and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or
> business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps
> as part of a planned upgrade cycle).
>
> In either case, after they or some IT person has helped with the OS
> update, suddenly some of their software (including ours) no longer works
> (being 32-bit). They don't know why. They don't care why.
>
> Now as for the "Well, Apple has been notifying you forever that, as a
> developer, you needed to be at 64 bits" or "But if you make your apps in
> LiveCode, just recompile with LiveCode 9"
>
> Our apps have hundreds of thousands of line of code. In migrating them
> to LiveCode 9, at first they would not even run. In the course of
> migrating, Researchware staff has filed some 40 Livecode 9 bugs, some of
> which have no or no good workarounds, that directly impact features of
> our apps. Thankfully, most have work-arounds, but work-arounds and
> testing take time. Now for the record, LiveCode, Ltd. has been
> absolutely great in suggesting work-arounds or helping us work through
> the most serious of the bugs.
>
> Our customers do not need 64 bits. Our very niche software does what it
> needs to do in 32 bits. Our customer have no disk space issues or memory
> issues due to both 32 and 64 bits libraries or support. Our customers
> would all be very happy to just keep using our tools as is. Hence, my
> venting is about Apple's intentionally planned obsolescence. What our
> customers want in new versions is not 64 bit, but functional
> enhancements to what our software does.
>
> Being a small (very small), we have sunk a year of development in to
> getting to LC9 for 64 bit and making sure what we have in our app just
> works (QA testing!). We have had no resources to work on new or enhanced
> features. So our customers get an upgrade, with almost nothing new
> except 64 bit support, which also means with nothing new, we can't in
> good conscious charge an upgrade fee for it. Which means lost revenue,
> which badly hurts our small business.
>
> Should we have migrated to LC9 sooner? Probably, but doing so would have
> meant - as it does now - only doing the migration and not new
> features/revenue. Also doing in now, we still found 40 bugs. If we did
> it a year or two ago, how many more bugs would we have found that have
> since been fixed!
>
> That's what Catalina represents to us. I realize that many many Apple
> customers will be delighted with Catalina and I am happy for them. I
> just wish that Apple cared a bit more about not breaking what came
> before. Say what you will about Microsoft, but I still have specialty
> applications written for Windows 2000/XP that run fine under Windows 10!
> Microsoft is guilty of many many sins, but **for the most part** they
> try to keep things that once once worked still working.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Wed Oct  9 12:35:56 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:35:56 -0500
Subject: macOS Notarization helper for Levure
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG83eF9BVWR7wdwwK9CVP6fVRnNgXv-2Qddf5eTAk7yMaA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

After reading the article by Matthias on notarization* I put together a
helper for Levure that will notarize a DMG image when you package your
Levure application. Here is the link:

https://github.com/trevordevore/levurehelper-macos_notary

To use it you will need to update to version 0.9.2 of Levure which I
released today. Here are the release notes:

https://github.com/trevordevore/levure/releases/tag/v0.9.2.0

If you need help creating a DMG of your app then the dropDMG helper can
take care of that if you have dropDMG:

https://github.com/trevordevore/levurehelper-dropDMG

Of course, someone could write a helper that uses Apple's command line
tools to create a DMG as well.

*
http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/1122100-codesigning-and-notarizing-your-lc-standalone-for-distribution-outside-the-mac-appstore

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  9 12:38:24 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:38:24 +0000
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
 <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <48F79DD7-79DE-4F04-A465-0F39E558FFFC@iotecdigital.com>

+1 I don't either. Too old and scarred to brave those waters. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 09:29 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and would let us know when it was ready.
> 
> That seemed thoughtful, and probably saved them a lot of tech support as well. On the other hand, I almost never upgrade to the first release of a major dot-zero version. I wait for the wrinkles to shake out.
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct  9 12:39:46 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:39:46 +0000
Subject: macOS Notarization helper for Levure
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG83eF9BVWR7wdwwK9CVP6fVRnNgXv-2Qddf5eTAk7yMaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHg3tG83eF9BVWR7wdwwK9CVP6fVRnNgXv-2Qddf5eTAk7yMaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <935B00CE-5A33-4C15-A656-E89C766C117B@iotecdigital.com>

Brilliant. I really need to move to Levure. I'm going to have another go at it. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 09:35 , Trevor DeVore via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> After reading the article by Matthias on notarization* I put together a
> helper for Levure that will notarize a DMG image when you package your
> Levure application. Here is the link:
> 
> https://github.com/trevordevore/levurehelper-macos_notary
> 
> To use it you will need to update to version 0.9.2 of Levure which I
> released today. Here are the release notes:
> 
> https://github.com/trevordevore/levure/releases/tag/v0.9.2.0
> 
> If you need help creating a DMG of your app then the dropDMG helper can
> take care of that if you have dropDMG:
> 
> https://github.com/trevordevore/levurehelper-dropDMG
> 
> Of course, someone could write a helper that uses Apple's command line
> tools to create a DMG as well.
> 
> *
> http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/1122100-codesigning-and-notarizing-your-lc-standalone-for-distribution-outside-the-mac-appstore
> 
> -- 
> Trevor DeVore
> ScreenSteps
> www.screensteps.com




From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct  9 12:44:59 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:44:59 -0400
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <D31BD6B7-DDE8-419E-89A1-151AE2DDD66B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
 <D31BD6B7-DDE8-419E-89A1-151AE2DDD66B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <eefbe556-5264-3d55-da3b-d24fe23097f3@researchware.com>

On 10/9/2019 12:02 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> It's a good point. If any commercial developers using LC (or ANY dev environment) are going to have issues with Catalina, it might be a good idea to mail blast them and warn them if your app is not going to be compatible, and even provide a general time frame for when they will be.

Yes, we unfortunately, already had to do that. And I hated having to 
send it out. We just could not quite make the timing. We have about a 
handful of bugs left to fix and QA and then we'll have our new release. 
I really regret not being done by Catalina, but we tried hard.

We, ourselves, use a popular Accounting software package that runs on 
OSX, who also email blasted us warning they were not quite 64 bit yet.



From martyknappster at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 12:45:22 2019
From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 09:45:22 -0700
Subject: macOS Notarization helper for Levure
In-Reply-To: <935B00CE-5A33-4C15-A656-E89C766C117B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAHg3tG83eF9BVWR7wdwwK9CVP6fVRnNgXv-2Qddf5eTAk7yMaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <935B00CE-5A33-4C15-A656-E89C766C117B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <E3086388-4EFB-4E37-9738-B3FDA8F9065B@gmail.com>

You won?t regret it Bob, Levure is a great framework. A big thanks (again) to Trevor.

Marty

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Brilliant. I really need to move to Levure. I'm going to have another go at it. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 09:35 , Trevor DeVore via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> After reading the article by Matthias on notarization* I put together a
>> helper for Levure that will notarize a DMG image when you package your
>> Levure application. Here is the link:
>> 
>> https://github.com/trevordevore/levurehelper-macos_notary
>> 
>> To use it you will need to update to version 0.9.2 of Levure which I
>> released today. Here are the release notes:
>> 
>> https://github.com/trevordevore/levure/releases/tag/v0.9.2.0
>> 
>> If you need help creating a DMG of your app then the dropDMG helper can
>> take care of that if you have dropDMG:
>> 
>> https://github.com/trevordevore/levurehelper-dropDMG
>> 
>> Of course, someone could write a helper that uses Apple's command line
>> tools to create a DMG as well.
>> 
>> *
>> http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/1122100-codesigning-and-notarizing-your-lc-standalone-for-distribution-outside-the-mac-appstore
>> 
>> -- 
>> Trevor DeVore
>> ScreenSteps
>> www.screensteps.com
> 




From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct  9 12:46:00 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:46:00 -0400
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
 <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <e60ab373-41e8-54d5-da61-3bc6b1390010@researchware.com>

On 10/9/2019 12:29 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the 
> company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to 
> upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition 
> for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. 
> They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and 
> would let us know when it was ready.
Hah! We clearly use the SAME accounting software!



From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Oct  9 12:47:14 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:47:14 -0400
Subject: Building Android Apps
In-Reply-To: <E79F09FC-242D-4F3D-9F79-A355E92CE479@reidit.co.uk>
References: <E79F09FC-242D-4F3D-9F79-A355E92CE479@reidit.co.uk>
Message-ID: <003701d57ec1$369351f0$a3b9f5d0$@net>

Peter,

This is because the Version Code(standalone setting==>Android) is
numerically lower than the currently installed version. Either up the
Version Code or uninstall/reinstall the app.

Other issue you can run into: (Inconsistent Signing error)
1) When doing "test" installs if you move to another PC/Mac/VM the "Test
Signing"(standalone setting==>Android) key pair is specific to the box. To
solve this you need to either go back to the original OS or
uninstall/reinstall the app.
2) If you install a Signed version over a Test Signed version or vice versa
you will get the same error. The solution is the same. Either use the same
signing or uninstall/reinstall the app.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Peter Reid via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2019 7:26 AM
To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Cc: Peter Reid
Subject: Building Android Apps

I've been building Android apps using my iMac for some time. However,
yesterday I started to get an error message "Failure
[INSTALL_FAILED_VERSION_DOWNGRADE]" when I try to build an Android
standalone app. Any ideas what's causing this and how to fix it?

Separately I'd like to be able to build Android apps on my 15in MacBook Pro
so I can do on-the-fly fixes when out and about. However I can't find
up-to-date instructions for installing Android support. Some searches
produce various suggestions including LiveCode tutorials about setting up a
Mac to work with LiveCode and Android but they all seem to be out of date
and contradict each other. In addition there's no advice for how to get to a
clean state of Java and Android.

Can anyone point to up-to-date details for setting up a Mac to create
Android apps with minimal installation of supporting technologies, both as a
clean set-up and how to clean up JDK and SDK support if necessary?

Thanks

Peter
--
Peter Reid
Loughborough, UK


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From hh at hyperhh.de  Wed Oct  9 13:06:28 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 19:06:28 +0200
Subject: Catalina
Message-ID: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>

> Bob S. wrote:
> Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that
> you don't HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your
> version of LC to become obsolete. YOU DID! 
> 
> Matthias R. wrote:
> Thanks Bot, i thought the same, but did not dare to write it.

It is just the same with new LiveCode versions.
So why did you both ever write about new LC versions?

New MacOS versions are often a downgrade in software speed
(measured relative to hardware speed). This time it is a BIG
downgrade. Just try yourself (but you don't have to ...).

The current Apple style is the 'fake-news-and-status' style:

For example the installer. For at about 45 minutes the estimated
time remaining is repeatedly calculated to 31 minutes and then
going down by one to 27 every ten minutes. This is 5bit computing,
not 64bit.

First everything has to be freshly indexed and cashed, of course.

But then, after *every* startup, the system seems to be ready
but doesn't respond for ten seconds. The same again with Mail,
etc., hopefully not with your standalones.




From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Wed Oct  9 13:28:24 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:28:24 -0500
Subject: macOS Notarization helper for Levure
In-Reply-To: <E3086388-4EFB-4E37-9738-B3FDA8F9065B@gmail.com>
References: <CAHg3tG83eF9BVWR7wdwwK9CVP6fVRnNgXv-2Qddf5eTAk7yMaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <935B00CE-5A33-4C15-A656-E89C766C117B@iotecdigital.com>
 <E3086388-4EFB-4E37-9738-B3FDA8F9065B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG-B=bJLKJdpWE40ehoZqmB-OM6L8--Xr=EDyzwwK+Kq4g@mail.gmail.com>

You?re welcome Marty. Glad you like it.

Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 11:46 AM Marty Knapp via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> You won?t regret it Bob, Levure is a great framework. A big thanks (again)
> to Trevor.
>
> Marty
>
> > On Oct 9, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Brilliant. I really need to move to Levure. I'm going to have another go
> at it.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> >> On Oct 9, 2019, at 09:35 , Trevor DeVore via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> After reading the article by Matthias on notarization* I put together a
> >> helper for Levure that will notarize a DMG image when you package your
> >> Levure application. Here is the link:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/trevordevore/levurehelper-macos_notary
> >>
> >> To use it you will need to update to version 0.9.2 of Levure which I
> >> released today. Here are the release notes:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/trevordevore/levure/releases/tag/v0.9.2.0
> >>
> >> If you need help creating a DMG of your app then the dropDMG helper can
> >> take care of that if you have dropDMG:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/trevordevore/levurehelper-dropDMG
> >>
> >> Of course, someone could write a helper that uses Apple's command line
> >> tools to create a DMG as well.
> >>
> >> *
> >>
> http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/1122100-codesigning-and-notarizing-your-lc-standalone-for-distribution-outside-the-mac-appstore
> >>
> >> --
> >> Trevor DeVore
> >> ScreenSteps
> >> www.screensteps.com
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 14:02:53 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 21:02:53 +0300
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
 <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <39e6dd89-d460-f06f-c51b-90e8a81f6b71@gmail.com>

Not for me: as a person who is normally an early adopter, I'm breaking 
my own rule and
keeping well clear of Catalina.

I have always been ambivalent about upgrading as the benefits have 
almost always been balanced by downsides

[ https://www.downside.co.uk/ ]

and, as I still use a BBC Model B computer (saving my work on an audio 
cassette) for tinkering around with
BBC BASIC in a way that seems direct and to the point: no GUI, boots in 
5 seconds., I am not automatically
a believer in the ever-upwards thing (remember, in Jacob's dream there 
were also being coming down the staircase).

As I, almost exclusively (well, except when I'm fooling myself about 
Devawriter Pro) develop humble
little programs for EFL kiddos for deployment on manky-franky old PCs 
running Xubuntu the need for Catalina
exists in no bigger way than the fact that I regret never having "had a 
bash" at Mount Everest.

As, at 57, I'm working my way towards being one of Jacque's "wrinklies", 
I suspect the shaking will be
elsewhere.

On 9.10.19 19:29, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the 
> company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to 
> upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition 
> for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. 
> They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and 
> would let us know when it was ready.
>
> That seemed thoughtful, and probably saved them a lot of tech support 
> as well. On the other hand, I almost never upgrade to the first 
> release of a major dot-zero version. I wait for the wrinkles to shake 
> out.
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On October 9, 2019 10:52:25 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will
>> only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer
>> and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or
>> business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps
>> as part of a planned upgrade cycle).
>>
>> In either case, after they or some IT person has helped with the OS
>> update, suddenly some of their software (including ours) no longer works
>> (being 32-bit). They don't know why. They don't care why.
>>
>> Now as for the "Well, Apple has been notifying you forever that, as a
>> developer, you needed to be at 64 bits" or "But if you make your apps in
>> LiveCode, just recompile with LiveCode 9"
>>
>> Our apps have hundreds of thousands of line of code. In migrating them
>> to LiveCode 9, at first they would not even run. In the course of
>> migrating, Researchware staff has filed some 40 Livecode 9 bugs, some of
>> which have no or no good workarounds, that directly impact features of
>> our apps. Thankfully, most have work-arounds, but work-arounds and
>> testing take time. Now for the record, LiveCode, Ltd. has been
>> absolutely great in suggesting work-arounds or helping us work through
>> the most serious of the bugs.
>>
>> Our customers do not need 64 bits. Our very niche software does what it
>> needs to do in 32 bits. Our customer have no disk space issues or memory
>> issues due to both 32 and 64 bits libraries or support. Our customers
>> would all be very happy to just keep using our tools as is. Hence, my
>> venting is about Apple's intentionally planned obsolescence. What our
>> customers want in new versions is not 64 bit, but functional
>> enhancements to what our software does.
>>
>> Being a small (very small), we have sunk a year of development in to
>> getting to LC9 for 64 bit and making sure what we have in our app just
>> works (QA testing!). We have had no resources to work on new or enhanced
>> features. So our customers get an upgrade, with almost nothing new
>> except 64 bit support, which also means with nothing new, we can't in
>> good conscious charge an upgrade fee for it. Which means lost revenue,
>> which badly hurts our small business.
>>
>> Should we have migrated to LC9 sooner? Probably, but doing so would have
>> meant - as it does now - only doing the migration and not new
>> features/revenue. Also doing in now, we still found 40 bugs. If we did
>> it a year or two ago, how many more bugs would we have found that have
>> since been fixed!
>>
>> That's what Catalina represents to us. I realize that many many Apple
>> customers will be delighted with Catalina and I am happy for them. I
>> just wish that Apple cared a bit more about not breaking what came
>> before. Say what you will about Microsoft, but I still have specialty
>> applications written for Windows 2000/XP that run fine under Windows 10!
>> Microsoft is guilty of many many sins, but **for the most part** they
>> try to keep things that once once worked still working.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 14:09:56 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 21:09:56 +0300
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>

As far as I know, Catalina "exists" inside its "own protected space", 
which means that it
is like that awful conversation you have with your embarrassing relative 
who is banged
up in one of those American prisons we see in Movies with a thickened 
plate-glass window
and 2 retro telephone handsets . . .

. . . I remember having a conversation in 1993 from Connecticut with my 
Mum (for her birthday)
in England with one of those cheapo phone cards that went in for fancy 
signal-sharing (or something) where,
by the time the person heard what you'd had to say at the other end 
you'd had time to regret saying.

On 9.10.19 20:06, hh via use-livecode wrote:
>> Bob S. wrote:
>> Can I just point out, to no one in particular on this list, that
>> you don't HAVE TO UPGRADE TO CATALINA??? Apple did not cause your
>> version of LC to become obsolete. YOU DID!
>>
>> Matthias R. wrote:
>> Thanks Bot, i thought the same, but did not dare to write it.
> It is just the same with new LiveCode versions.
> So why did you both ever write about new LC versions?
>
> New MacOS versions are often a downgrade in software speed
> (measured relative to hardware speed). This time it is a BIG
> downgrade. Just try yourself (but you don't have to ...).
>
> The current Apple style is the 'fake-news-and-status' style:
>
> For example the installer. For at about 45 minutes the estimated
> time remaining is repeatedly calculated to 31 minutes and then
> going down by one to 27 every ten minutes. This is 5bit computing,
> not 64bit.
>
> First everything has to be freshly indexed and cashed, of course.
>
> But then, after *every* startup, the system seems to be ready
> but doesn't respond for ten seconds. The same again with Mail,
> etc., hopefully not with your standalones.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jjs at krutt.org  Wed Oct  9 14:13:57 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 20:13:57 +0200
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
 <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <c8d0e870-2d5b-5b7e-e89c-6dab4c8496e8@krutt.org>

I just got an email from Arturia a french based company that makes 
software and nowadays hardware synthesizers too, warning customers not 
to update to Catalina, until there is a hotfix. Many plugins producers 
use in music DAW's are still 32-bits and will not work.

What a great move from Apple.

You can say from Windows what you want, but i have plugins from around 
2003 still working as advertised in Win10-64bits

Op 9-10-2019 om 18:29 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode:
> It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the 
> company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to 
> upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition 
> for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. 
> They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and 
> would let us know when it was ready.
>
> That seemed thoughtful, and probably saved them a lot of tech support 
> as well. On the other hand, I almost never upgrade to the first 
> release of a major dot-zero version. I wait for the wrinkles to shake 
> out.
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On October 9, 2019 10:52:25 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Customer (at least ours) do not understand 32 bit vs 64-bit. They will
>> only know that (a) Apple says there is a new update for their computer
>> and they click to update; or (b) as a member of some university or
>> business, their computer is upgraded (perhaps at their request, perhaps
>> as part of a planned upgrade cycle).
>>
>> In either case, after they or some IT person has helped with the OS
>> update, suddenly some of their software (including ours) no longer works
>> (being 32-bit). They don't know why. They don't care why.
>>
>> Now as for the "Well, Apple has been notifying you forever that, as a
>> developer, you needed to be at 64 bits" or "But if you make your apps in
>> LiveCode, just recompile with LiveCode 9"
>>
>> Our apps have hundreds of thousands of line of code. In migrating them
>> to LiveCode 9, at first they would not even run. In the course of
>> migrating, Researchware staff has filed some 40 Livecode 9 bugs, some of
>> which have no or no good workarounds, that directly impact features of
>> our apps. Thankfully, most have work-arounds, but work-arounds and
>> testing take time. Now for the record, LiveCode, Ltd. has been
>> absolutely great in suggesting work-arounds or helping us work through
>> the most serious of the bugs.
>>
>> Our customers do not need 64 bits. Our very niche software does what it
>> needs to do in 32 bits. Our customer have no disk space issues or memory
>> issues due to both 32 and 64 bits libraries or support. Our customers
>> would all be very happy to just keep using our tools as is. Hence, my
>> venting is about Apple's intentionally planned obsolescence. What our
>> customers want in new versions is not 64 bit, but functional
>> enhancements to what our software does.
>>
>> Being a small (very small), we have sunk a year of development in to
>> getting to LC9 for 64 bit and making sure what we have in our app just
>> works (QA testing!). We have had no resources to work on new or enhanced
>> features. So our customers get an upgrade, with almost nothing new
>> except 64 bit support, which also means with nothing new, we can't in
>> good conscious charge an upgrade fee for it. Which means lost revenue,
>> which badly hurts our small business.
>>
>> Should we have migrated to LC9 sooner? Probably, but doing so would have
>> meant - as it does now - only doing the migration and not new
>> features/revenue. Also doing in now, we still found 40 bugs. If we did
>> it a year or two ago, how many more bugs would we have found that have
>> since been fixed!
>>
>> That's what Catalina represents to us. I realize that many many Apple
>> customers will be delighted with Catalina and I am happy for them. I
>> just wish that Apple cared a bit more about not breaking what came
>> before. Say what you will about Microsoft, but I still have specialty
>> applications written for Windows 2000/XP that run fine under Windows 10!
>> Microsoft is guilty of many many sins, but **for the most part** they
>> try to keep things that once once worked still working.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From kee.nethery at elloco.com  Wed Oct  9 14:17:01 2019
From: kee.nethery at elloco.com (kee nethery)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:17:01 -0700
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>

I?m not so concerned with the latest version of Catalina as I am with some of the software I use ceasing to function. Want to make sure I either update everything to 64bit, find a replacement, or convert documents into a format that will work with the 64bit apps that I do have.

Kee

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> As far as I know, Catalina "exists" inside its "own protected space", which means that it
> is like that awful conversation you have with your embarrassing relative who is banged
> up in one of those American prisons we see in Movies with a thickened plate-glass window
> and 2 retro telephone handsets . . .
> 
> . . . I remember having a conversation in 1993 from Connecticut with my Mum (for her birthday)
> in England with one of those cheapo phone cards that went in for fancy signal-sharing (or something) where,
> by the time the person heard what you'd had to say at the other end you'd had time to regret saying.



From dsc at swcp.com  Wed Oct  9 15:03:58 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:03:58 -0600
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
Message-ID: <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>

I just use macWrap32. Oh. Wait. There isn't one.

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 12:17 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I?m not so concerned with the latest version of Catalina as I am with some of the software I use ceasing to function. Want to make sure I either update everything to 64bit, find a replacement, or convert documents into a format that will work with the 64bit apps that I do have.
> 
> Kee
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> As far as I know, Catalina "exists" inside its "own protected space", which means that it
>> is like that awful conversation you have with your embarrassing relative who is banged
>> up in one of those American prisons we see in Movies with a thickened plate-glass window
>> and 2 retro telephone handsets . . .
>> 
>> . . . I remember having a conversation in 1993 from Connecticut with my Mum (for her birthday)
>> in England with one of those cheapo phone cards that went in for fancy signal-sharing (or something) where,
>> by the time the person heard what you'd had to say at the other end you'd had time to regret saying.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From mark at canelasoftware.com  Wed Oct  9 16:09:32 2019
From: mark at canelasoftware.com (Mark Talluto)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:09:32 -0700
Subject: Thank you for the 9.0.5 update
Message-ID: <8BB3D139-676C-4151-8400-9E2A918C0EEB@canelasoftware.com>

For the time being, I am developing on 9.0.5 stable. The reason is that debugging with red dots no longer crashes LiveCode. I appreciate the time taken to implement this bug fix.

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185 <https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185>

My productivity has increased by not having to restart my rather complex LiveCode setups after a crash. Plus, I can live breakpoint (using the dots) while already in debug mode.

Thanks again for this important update.


Best regards,

Mark Talluto
livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>






From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Oct  9 17:01:46 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:01:46 -0700
Subject: Questions about LC Server Apps
In-Reply-To: <4D15BF5D-04B5-443F-B22A-E9240244C227@krutt.org>
References: <4D15BF5D-04B5-443F-B22A-E9240244C227@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <343c4213-07a3-ef5c-87c5-12d0a8a7cd01@fourthworld.com>

Jjs wrote:

 >> Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >>
 >> Apparently the Server Guide is no longer included in the Sever
 >> download.
 >>
 >> Instead there's a copy of the Release Notes named as though they're
 >> specific to Server, but they don't seem to be.
...
 >> Once we have it we can put it back into place in the build system as
 >> it used to be.
 >
 > That would be great thanks!

Thanks to Ralf Bitter (of RevIgniter fame) for posting a copy of the 
Server Guide to the forums.

I've now filed a bug report requesting the build system return to 
including that in the LC Server install - a copy of the Server Guide PDF 
is attached to the report:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22406

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Oct  9 17:41:36 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:41:36 -0500
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <e60ab373-41e8-54d5-da61-3bc6b1390010@researchware.com>
References: <D6B383B1-8F98-4C87-8C03-E7E14E40A751@hyperhh.de>
 <C6561838-8D34-4CD4-9236-5C7C8F4AE077@iotecdigital.com>
 <f2a5d870-b982-8fba-0c69-1cab25a35b4a@researchware.com>
 <16db15af030.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <e60ab373-41e8-54d5-da61-3bc6b1390010@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <bc36cd51-219b-563a-296e-807285770ddf@hyperactivesw.com>

On 10/9/19 11:46 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:
> On 10/9/2019 12:29 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> It may be too late for you, but last week I got an email from the 
>> company that makes my accounting software warning customers not to 
>> upgrade to Catalina. They said they've been working on the transition 
>> for a year and thought they'd finish in time but it didn't work out. 
>> They were quite up-front about it, said they were working hard and 
>> would let us know when it was ready.
> Hah! We clearly use the SAME accounting software!

I was just thinking the same thing. :)

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Oct  9 17:50:09 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:50:09 -0500
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
 <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>

On 10/9/19 2:03 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
> I just use macWrap32. Oh. Wait. There isn't one.

:) Write one for us.

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From dsc at swcp.com  Wed Oct  9 19:59:26 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:59:26 -0600
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
 <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
 <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <B2B031E9-EBE1-4FFA-940F-7F5230AD8727@swcp.com>

Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 interrupt.

However, here are some ideas for alternatives.

Virtual

Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.

Real

Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK. 

Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 3:50 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10/9/19 2:03 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> I just use macWrap32. Oh. Wait. There isn't one.
> 
> :) Write one for us.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From meitnik at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 22:05:01 2019
From: meitnik at gmail.com (meitnik at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 22:05:01 -0400
Subject: LC and Hypercard
Message-ID: <5DE02B10-2048-48C4-8687-E81392C33C4F@gmail.com>

For a while now, whenever I try to open a .hc or .stk or .Stak or .STACK file, LC just bombs HARD
Has Hypercard conversion into LC gone?? Missing the magic steps how to?
Thanks




From meitnik at gmail.com  Wed Oct  9 22:23:42 2019
From: meitnik at gmail.com (meitnik at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 22:23:42 -0400
Subject: .rev files going back to 2001/2002 fails to open
Message-ID: <41E519E8-4B28-4323-8058-8C23F861271A@gmail.com>

open, crash, boom?logs shortly?so am hoping 10 yr old .rev stacks can be worked with??!!


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Oct 10 01:33:18 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:33:18 -0500
Subject: LC and Hypercard
In-Reply-To: <5DE02B10-2048-48C4-8687-E81392C33C4F@gmail.com>
References: <5DE02B10-2048-48C4-8687-E81392C33C4F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16db427a0d8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

The inability to open HC stacks disappeared with LC 7. You can still open 
them in LC 6, save the stack, and then work with it in later versions.

I'm not sure what we'll do in Catalina when LC 6 won't run any more. I also 
sometimes use Chubby Bunny to emulate OS 9 and look at HC stacks there, but 
that will likely stop working too. Fortunately it's been a very long time 
since I needed to do any HC conversions.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 9, 2019 9:07:15 PM Meitnik via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> For a while now, whenever I try to open a .hc or .stk or .Stak or .STACK 
> file, LC just bombs HARD
> Has Hypercard conversion into LC gone?? Missing the magic steps how to?
> Thanks
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 10 04:53:27 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:53:27 +0100
Subject: Thank you for the 9.0.5 update
In-Reply-To: <8BB3D139-676C-4151-8400-9E2A918C0EEB@canelasoftware.com>
References: <8BB3D139-676C-4151-8400-9E2A918C0EEB@canelasoftware.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VAGZFox+SWC2UubJvTdrpu=9KNDxF3QALEF+g38dwYghA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

My mileage is varying.

I have been using 9.5 stable and thought it was the complexity of an
application that was the cause of crashing with "red dots"

I created a play/test stack yesterday - 1 button 2 functions and a mousup
of a couple of lines no more than 30 lines of code. Did some debugging and
got a crash
in less than 15 minutes. Does 9.05 stable have extra fixes that 9.5 stable
doesn't?

Thanks

Lagi

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 21:10, Mark Talluto via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> For the time being, I am developing on 9.0.5 stable. The reason is that
> debugging with red dots no longer crashes LiveCode. I appreciate the time
> taken to implement this bug fix.
>
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185 <
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185>
>
> My productivity has increased by not having to restart my rather complex
> LiveCode setups after a crash. Plus, I can live breakpoint (using the dots)
> while already in debug mode.
>
> Thanks again for this important update.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Talluto
> livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
> nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
> canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From bdrunrev at gmail.com  Thu Oct 10 06:38:28 2019
From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:38:28 +0100
Subject: Thank you for the 9.0.5 update
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VAGZFox+SWC2UubJvTdrpu=9KNDxF3QALEF+g38dwYghA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8BB3D139-676C-4151-8400-9E2A918C0EEB@canelasoftware.com>
 <CAG1h1VAGZFox+SWC2UubJvTdrpu=9KNDxF3QALEF+g38dwYghA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+O+R-HjCAKdp1Hz6Vz6myu_N0raDRUuGjY39Fk4TBBo=rbyPw@mail.gmail.com>

>>
I created a play/test stack yesterday - 1 button 2 functions and a mousup
of a couple of lines no more than 30 lines of code. Did some debugging and
got a crash
in less than 15 minutes.
<<

I was getting multiple random crashes with a test stack in 9.5 that were
apparently totally unrelated to debugging.   Having not seen such crashes
for years, I assumed that it was the introduction of the 64bit build for
Windows. So I switched to using the 32bit build for Windows and the random
crashes continued.  I haven't got anywhere with finding a reproducible
pattern.

Regards, Bernard


From brian at milby7.com  Thu Oct 10 07:46:24 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:46:24 -0400
Subject: Thank you for the 9.0.5 update
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VAGZFox+SWC2UubJvTdrpu=9KNDxF3QALEF+g38dwYghA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8BB3D139-676C-4151-8400-9E2A918C0EEB@canelasoftware.com>
 <CAG1h1VAGZFox+SWC2UubJvTdrpu=9KNDxF3QALEF+g38dwYghA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88fddd2c-ade8-4156-9269-b015b1d54a69@Spark>

Yes, 9.0.5 has a fix that 9.5 does not for the debug crash. ?That fix will appear in the next update for 9.5.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 10, 2019, 4:55 AM -0400, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> My mileage is varying.
>
> I have been using 9.5 stable and thought it was the complexity of an
> application that was the cause of crashing with "red dots"
>
> I created a play/test stack yesterday - 1 button 2 functions and a mousup
> of a couple of lines no more than 30 lines of code. Did some debugging and
> got a crash
> in less than 15 minutes. Does 9.05 stable have extra fixes that 9.5 stable
> doesn't?
>
> Thanks
>
> Lagi
>
> On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 21:10, Mark Talluto via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > For the time being, I am developing on 9.0.5 stable. The reason is that
> > debugging with red dots no longer crashes LiveCode. I appreciate the time
> > taken to implement this bug fix.
> >
> > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185 <
> > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185>
> >
> > My productivity has increased by not having to restart my rather complex
> > LiveCode setups after a crash. Plus, I can live breakpoint (using the dots)
> > while already in debug mode.
> >
> > Thanks again for this important update.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Mark Talluto
> > livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
> > nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
> > canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 10 08:11:30 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:11:30 +0100
Subject: Thank you for the 9.0.5 update
In-Reply-To: <88fddd2c-ade8-4156-9269-b015b1d54a69@Spark>
References: <8BB3D139-676C-4151-8400-9E2A918C0EEB@canelasoftware.com>
 <CAG1h1VAGZFox+SWC2UubJvTdrpu=9KNDxF3QALEF+g38dwYghA@mail.gmail.com>
 <88fddd2c-ade8-4156-9269-b015b1d54a69@Spark>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VDQr6u7QZ+5F41kHh_UTrthsNxN2wGa4TehgmsYQT5pqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank You Brian, I was hoping that would be the answer.

Regards Lagi

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 12:47, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yes, 9.0.5 has a fix that 9.5 does not for the debug crash.  That fix will
> appear in the next update for 9.5.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 10, 2019, 4:55 AM -0400, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > My mileage is varying.
> >
> > I have been using 9.5 stable and thought it was the complexity of an
> > application that was the cause of crashing with "red dots"
> >
> > I created a play/test stack yesterday - 1 button 2 functions and a mousup
> > of a couple of lines no more than 30 lines of code. Did some debugging
> and
> > got a crash
> > in less than 15 minutes. Does 9.05 stable have extra fixes that 9.5
> stable
> > doesn't?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Lagi
> >
> > On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 21:10, Mark Talluto via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > For the time being, I am developing on 9.0.5 stable. The reason is that
> > > debugging with red dots no longer crashes LiveCode. I appreciate the
> time
> > > taken to implement this bug fix.
> > >
> > > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185 <
> > > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185>
> > >
> > > My productivity has increased by not having to restart my rather
> complex
> > > LiveCode setups after a crash. Plus, I can live breakpoint (using the
> dots)
> > > while already in debug mode.
> > >
> > > Thanks again for this important update.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Mark Talluto
> > > livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
> > > nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
> > > canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct 10 10:17:54 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:17:54 -0400
Subject: Thank you for the 9.0.5 update
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VDQr6u7QZ+5F41kHh_UTrthsNxN2wGa4TehgmsYQT5pqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8BB3D139-676C-4151-8400-9E2A918C0EEB@canelasoftware.com>
 <CAG1h1VAGZFox+SWC2UubJvTdrpu=9KNDxF3QALEF+g38dwYghA@mail.gmail.com>
 <88fddd2c-ade8-4156-9269-b015b1d54a69@Spark>
 <CAG1h1VDQr6u7QZ+5F41kHh_UTrthsNxN2wGa4TehgmsYQT5pqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLK=C+AOS95cj5OQx3OP0WgePXntGno7eP4YT2cW0oocaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed..... this was a critical release, I was struggling with the property
inspector for what seems like 18 months..... now all those bugs are fixed,
not to mention the memory leaks.

way fewer interruptions and new users won't be asking themselves what is
wrong with this thing.

Happy coding everyone.



On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 8:12 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thank You Brian, I was hoping that would be the answer.
>
> Regards Lagi
>
> On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 12:47, Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, 9.0.5 has a fix that 9.5 does not for the debug crash.  That fix
> will
> > appear in the next update for 9.5.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Brian
> > On Oct 10, 2019, 4:55 AM -0400, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> > > Hi Mark,
> > >
> > > My mileage is varying.
> > >
> > > I have been using 9.5 stable and thought it was the complexity of an
> > > application that was the cause of crashing with "red dots"
> > >
> > > I created a play/test stack yesterday - 1 button 2 functions and a
> mousup
> > > of a couple of lines no more than 30 lines of code. Did some debugging
> > and
> > > got a crash
> > > in less than 15 minutes. Does 9.05 stable have extra fixes that 9.5
> > stable
> > > doesn't?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Lagi
> > >
> > > On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 at 21:10, Mark Talluto via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For the time being, I am developing on 9.0.5 stable. The reason is
> that
> > > > debugging with red dots no longer crashes LiveCode. I appreciate the
> > time
> > > > taken to implement this bug fix.
> > > >
> > > > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185 <
> > > > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7185>
> > > >
> > > > My productivity has increased by not having to restart my rather
> > complex
> > > > LiveCode setups after a crash. Plus, I can live breakpoint (using the
> > dots)
> > > > while already in debug mode.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for this important update.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Mark Talluto
> > > > livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
> > > > nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
> > > > canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > > subscription preferences:
> > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 10 10:34:10 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:34:10 +0000
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <B2B031E9-EBE1-4FFA-940F-7F5230AD8727@swcp.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
 <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
 <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>
 <B2B031E9-EBE1-4FFA-940F-7F5230AD8727@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <0BDF9DB8-02E0-4C3C-B7D0-C3C5349966CD@iotecdigital.com>

Mad scientist indeed! ;-)

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 interrupt.
> 
> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
> 
> Virtual
> 
> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.
> 
> Real
> 
> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK. 
> 
> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
> 
> Dar Scott
> Mad Scientist




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 10 10:36:19 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:36:19 +0000
Subject: .rev files going back to 2001/2002 fails to open
In-Reply-To: <41E519E8-4B28-4323-8058-8C23F861271A@gmail.com>
References: <41E519E8-4B28-4323-8058-8C23F861271A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A958AB2C-5D4B-47F5-9D21-F09130810F24@iotecdigital.com>

launch LC. Supress messages from the Development window. Open stack. Does it crash now? It's not your code. If it doesn't crash, set a breakpoint in your openStack handler, turn off suppress messages, run Openstack. Trace until it crashes. 

Bob S


> On Oct 9, 2019, at 19:23 , Meitnik via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> open, crash, boom?logs shortly?so am hoping 10 yr old .rev stacks can be worked with??!!


From johnpatten at me.com  Thu Oct 10 11:41:59 2019
From: johnpatten at me.com (JOHN PATTEN)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:41:59 -0700
Subject: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer Interface)
Message-ID: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>

Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode ?developer interface/tool? project?

If you?ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons that would allow you to ?go to next card? etc. Pretty much no script access. 

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities. 

If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with access to all developer components (Level 4?)

Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new user?

Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this path and would be willing to share :)

Thank you!
John Patten



Sent from my iPhone



From devin_asay at byu.edu  Thu Oct 10 11:53:50 2019
From: devin_asay at byu.edu (Devin Asay)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:53:50 +0000
Subject: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer
 Interface)
In-Reply-To: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
References: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
Message-ID: <82F2A75E-A9C8-40F8-B241-EC19E8E9C7BB@byu.edu>

Hi John,

This idea has been discussed over the years, but I don?t know of anyone who has implemented it.

The userLevels were:

1 - Browsing - the ability to run and explore stacks, but no ability to make changes.
2 - Typing - added the ability to type and edit text in fields.
3 - Painting - added the ability to use the Paint tools to change the appears of cards and backgrounds.
4 - Authoring - added the ability to create buttons and fields and to link buttons to cards and stacks.
5 - Scripting - gave you full access to all developer components, including scripting.

The ?magic words? were ?set the userLevel to 5?.

I found this information in my cobwebby brain, but was helped by the information on this page: http://folkstream.com/muse/teachhc/using/hcusing.html

Best of luck. I think there are other people here who would be interested in this if you find or make something.

Devin


On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:41 AM, JOHN PATTEN via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode ?developer interface/tool? project?

If you?ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons that would allow you to ?go to next card? etc. Pretty much no script access.

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities.

If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with access to all developer components (Level 4?)

Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new user?

Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this path and would be willing to share :)

Thank you!
John Patten



Sent from my iPhone

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University


From mark at canelasoftware.com  Thu Oct 10 11:58:22 2019
From: mark at canelasoftware.com (Mark Talluto)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:58:22 -0700
Subject: Thank you for the 9.0.5 update
In-Reply-To: <88fddd2c-ade8-4156-9269-b015b1d54a69@Spark>
References: <8BB3D139-676C-4151-8400-9E2A918C0EEB@canelasoftware.com>
 <CAG1h1VAGZFox+SWC2UubJvTdrpu=9KNDxF3QALEF+g38dwYghA@mail.gmail.com>
 <88fddd2c-ade8-4156-9269-b015b1d54a69@Spark>
Message-ID: <737C6BE7-0690-4799-A4FD-7928A3047053@canelasoftware.com>

As Brian stated, 9.5 will get the bug fix as well. I believe Heather indicated that this was coming pretty soon. 

I have been using 9.0.5 since the stable update and have not had a single crash. The debugger is an important component to me. LiveCode does a great job allowing us to drop breakpoints in real-time during a debugging session. But, until this bug fix, I had to stop using them because the feature would cause a crash within seconds/minutes of using them.

This single bug fix has changed the way I code. I use the debugger frequently to test my logic and variable contents on complex portions of the projects I work with. Now we are cooking with gas.

When 9.5 gets the update, I will move back to 9.5. Till then, I am happy in 9.0.5. We still build our executables using 9.5. I would highly suggest moving back to 9.0.5 for development and breathe easy again.


Best regards,

Mark Talluto
livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>




> On Oct 10, 2019, at 4:46 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, 9.0.5 has a fix that 9.5 does not for the debug crash.  That fix will appear in the next update for 9.5.
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 10, 2019, 4:55 AM -0400, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 10 13:48:07 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:48:07 +0300
Subject: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer
 Interface)
In-Reply-To: <82F2A75E-A9C8-40F8-B241-EC19E8E9C7BB@byu.edu>
References: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
 <82F2A75E-A9C8-40F8-B241-EC19E8E9C7BB@byu.edu>
Message-ID: <a70566b5-4867-ed52-8036-09a45a74b494@gmail.com>

Well: for starters you are going to have to trawl right through LiveCode 
and decide
which capabilities fall into which of the 5 levels . . .

Then decide who you are going to block, for instance, access to a button 
script at level 4;
or partial blocking as you are going to allow buttons to do some things.

I designed a HyperCard-like set of tools for LiveCode a few years ago 
because,
over on a Yahoo group, various people who haven't worked a few home 
truths out were
bemoaning having a sophisticated interface to LiveCode instead of a 
dumed-down version: mine
was so dumbed-down it was almost moronic. For "some odd reason"
there were no takers as far as I am aware.

I teach Primary kids LiveCode every summer and we do just fine with the 
standard set of tools:
the kids use exactly what they require and are generally self-limiting.

Richmond.

On 10.10.19 18:53, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> This idea has been discussed over the years, but I don?t know of anyone who has implemented it.
>
> The userLevels were:
>
> 1 - Browsing - the ability to run and explore stacks, but no ability to make changes.
> 2 - Typing - added the ability to type and edit text in fields.
> 3 - Painting - added the ability to use the Paint tools to change the appears of cards and backgrounds.
> 4 - Authoring - added the ability to create buttons and fields and to link buttons to cards and stacks.
> 5 - Scripting - gave you full access to all developer components, including scripting.
>
> The ?magic words? were ?set the userLevel to 5?.
>
> I found this information in my cobwebby brain, but was helped by the information on this page: http://folkstream.com/muse/teachhc/using/hcusing.html
>
> Best of luck. I think there are other people here who would be interested in this if you find or make something.
>
> Devin
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:41 AM, JOHN PATTEN via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>
> Good Morning from SoCal,
>
> Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode ?developer interface/tool? project?
>
> If you?ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons that would allow you to ?go to next card? etc. Pretty much no script access.
>
> Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities.
>
> If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with access to all developer components (Level 4?)
>
> Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new user?
>
> Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this path and would be willing to share :)
>
> Thank you!
> John Patten
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> Devin Asay
> Director
> Office of Digital Humanities
> Brigham Young University
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dsc at swcp.com  Thu Oct 10 13:48:42 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:48:42 -0600
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <0BDF9DB8-02E0-4C3C-B7D0-C3C5349966CD@iotecdigital.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
 <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
 <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>
 <B2B031E9-EBE1-4FFA-940F-7F5230AD8727@swcp.com>
 <0BDF9DB8-02E0-4C3C-B7D0-C3C5349966CD@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <2AC1D03F-F69B-420E-9E5C-DBCD99A37133@swcp.com>

Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) desktop. 

My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.

Dar

> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 interrupt.
>> 
>> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
>> 
>> Virtual
>> 
>> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.
>> 
>> Real
>> 
>> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK. 
>> 
>> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
>> 
>> Dar Scott
>> Mad Scientist
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 10 13:51:32 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:51:32 +0300
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <2AC1D03F-F69B-420E-9E5C-DBCD99A37133@swcp.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
 <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
 <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>
 <B2B031E9-EBE1-4FFA-940F-7F5230AD8727@swcp.com>
 <0BDF9DB8-02E0-4C3C-B7D0-C3C5349966CD@iotecdigital.com>
 <2AC1D03F-F69B-420E-9E5C-DBCD99A37133@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <44a1bf10-fdae-f95a-7a0d-a42e7ac26160@gmail.com>

This sounds a bit like WineBottler:

http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/

On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
> Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) desktop.
>
> My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.
>
> Dar
>
>> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
>>
>> Bob S
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 interrupt.
>>>
>>> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
>>>
>>> Virtual
>>>
>>> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.
>>>
>>> Real
>>>
>>> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK.
>>>
>>> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
>>>
>>> Dar Scott
>>> Mad Scientist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dsc at swcp.com  Thu Oct 10 14:18:57 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 12:18:57 -0600
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <44a1bf10-fdae-f95a-7a0d-a42e7ac26160@gmail.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
 <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
 <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>
 <B2B031E9-EBE1-4FFA-940F-7F5230AD8727@swcp.com>
 <0BDF9DB8-02E0-4C3C-B7D0-C3C5349966CD@iotecdigital.com>
 <2AC1D03F-F69B-420E-9E5C-DBCD99A37133@swcp.com>
 <44a1bf10-fdae-f95a-7a0d-a42e7ac26160@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CC3C01E-BDE6-45EC-BBEE-726EC86E8904@swcp.com>

Yes!

We need a cool name like that, too. 
Code32 
MoreMojave
CantLetGo
TimeScope
macWrap32
32Palms
Wrap32with64
DoubleMy32
Sand

It looks like I can't come up with anything as cool as WineBottler

Dar Scott



> On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> This sounds a bit like WineBottler:
> 
> http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/
> 
> On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>> Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) desktop.
>> 
>> My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.
>> 
>> Dar
>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 interrupt.
>>>> 
>>>> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
>>>> 
>>>> Virtual
>>>> 
>>>> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.
>>>> 
>>>> Real
>>>> 
>>>> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK.
>>>> 
>>>> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
>>>> 
>>>> Dar Scott
>>>> Mad Scientist
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 10 14:24:04 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 21:24:04 +0300
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <8CC3C01E-BDE6-45EC-BBEE-726EC86E8904@swcp.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
 <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
 <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>
 <B2B031E9-EBE1-4FFA-940F-7F5230AD8727@swcp.com>
 <0BDF9DB8-02E0-4C3C-B7D0-C3C5349966CD@iotecdigital.com>
 <2AC1D03F-F69B-420E-9E5C-DBCD99A37133@swcp.com>
 <44a1bf10-fdae-f95a-7a0d-a42e7ac26160@gmail.com>
 <8CC3C01E-BDE6-45EC-BBEE-726EC86E8904@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <92ea6c01-0b50-1259-3e31-5ecf4607e57f@gmail.com>

Cider!

On 10.10.19 21:18, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
> Yes!
>
> We need a cool name like that, too.
> Code32
> MoreMojave
> CantLetGo
> TimeScope
> macWrap32
> 32Palms
> Wrap32with64
> DoubleMy32
> Sand
>
> It looks like I can't come up with anything as cool as WineBottler
>
> Dar Scott
>
>
>
>> On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> This sounds a bit like WineBottler:
>>
>> http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/
>>
>> On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) desktop.
>>>
>>> My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.
>>>
>>> Dar
>>>
>>>> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Bob S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 interrupt.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>>> Virtual
>>>>>
>>>>> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.
>>>>>
>>>>> Real
>>>>>
>>>>> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dar Scott
>>>>> Mad Scientist
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From devin_asay at byu.edu  Thu Oct 10 14:36:54 2019
From: devin_asay at byu.edu (Devin Asay)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 18:36:54 +0000
Subject: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer
 Interface)
In-Reply-To: <a70566b5-4867-ed52-8036-09a45a74b494@gmail.com>
References: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
 <82F2A75E-A9C8-40F8-B241-EC19E8E9C7BB@byu.edu>
 <a70566b5-4867-ed52-8036-09a45a74b494@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D70743B0-0B45-47F3-A6D1-D59396B4554C@byu.edu>

RIchmond has an excellent point: your development environment is less important than your goal.

The reason that all of us immediately typed ?set the userLevel to 5? in HyperCard is that you wouldn?t get far in your task until you needed a bump-up to a higher level of capabilities.

I also teach beginning programming (beginning application development is actually a better term), but to college students rather than primary kids. I realized recently like a bolt of lightening that I have been spending far too much instruction time describing the development environment and too little on setting tasks and then telling the students about the tools in LC that let them accomplish the task. I don?t know why it took me so long to come to that insight, because ?need-based? learning is how I learned both HyperCard and LiveCode. (And probably how most of us learned.) Now I?m thinking about ways to incorporate more task-based instruction into my classes.

But then I?m faced with the paradox that, according to some of the research I?ve looked at on teaching programming, large problem solving assignments are less effective than focused focused practice in teaching fundamental programming concepts. What I take from that is that students are helped by ?drilling? a concept with canned, focused, smaller tasks than they are by setting them a complex problem to solve. So my evolving approach is 1. present a concept, 2. do some drill and practice on the concept, 3. set them a more complex task that requires them to apply the concept.

I had imagined by this time in my career that I?d have figured this all out. I might just be slow. :-)

Devin


On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Well: for starters you are going to have to trawl right through LiveCode and decide
which capabilities fall into which of the 5 levels . . .

Then decide who you are going to block, for instance, access to a button script at level 4;
or partial blocking as you are going to allow buttons to do some things.

I designed a HyperCard-like set of tools for LiveCode a few years ago because,
over on a Yahoo group, various people who haven't worked a few home truths out were
bemoaning having a sophisticated interface to LiveCode instead of a dumed-down version: mine
was so dumbed-down it was almost moronic. For "some odd reason"
there were no takers as far as I am aware.

I teach Primary kids LiveCode every summer and we do just fine with the standard set of tools:
the kids use exactly what they require and are generally self-limiting.

Richmond.

On 10.10.19 18:53, Devin Asay via use-livecode wrote:
Hi John,

This idea has been discussed over the years, but I don?t know of anyone who has implemented it.

The userLevels were:

1 - Browsing - the ability to run and explore stacks, but no ability to make changes.
2 - Typing - added the ability to type and edit text in fields.
3 - Painting - added the ability to use the Paint tools to change the appears of cards and backgrounds.
4 - Authoring - added the ability to create buttons and fields and to link buttons to cards and stacks.
5 - Scripting - gave you full access to all developer components, including scripting.

The ?magic words? were ?set the userLevel to 5?.

I found this information in my cobwebby brain, but was helped by the information on this page: http://folkstream.com/muse/teachhc/using/hcusing.html

Best of luck. I think there are other people here who would be interested in this if you find or make something.

Devin

On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:41 AM, JOHN PATTEN via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com><mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Good Morning from SoCal,

Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode ?developer interface/tool? project?

If you?ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons that would allow you to ?go to next card? etc. Pretty much no script access.

Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities.

If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with access to all developer components (Level 4?)

Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new user?

Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this path and would be willing to share :)


Devin Asay
Director
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University


From jjs at krutt.org  Thu Oct 10 14:55:25 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:55:25 +0200
Subject: Android/Java PKCS12 Industry format Keystore
Message-ID: <d995f9fe-4835-def0-21f9-a508851565ea@krutt.org>

Hi,


have some people already changed their? (Android/Java) keystore keys to 
the PKCS12 format?


When creating a keystore key i get this warning a few times:


Warning:
The JKS keystore uses a proprietary format.
It is recommended to migrate to PKCS12 which is an industry standard 
format using "keytool -importkeystore -srckeystore yourapp.keystore 
-destkeystore yourapp.keystore -deststoretype pkcs12".

Or still using the proprietary format?

Regards.



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Thu Oct 10 15:01:56 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 12:01:56 -0700
Subject: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer
 Interface)
In-Reply-To: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
References: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
Message-ID: <03cef66b-463a-6976-80c4-b4ec3348c174@fourthworld.com>

Three years ago I spent several months researching both the learner 
experience and how to fund, document, and market a UI specifically for 
young learners based on LiveCode Community Edition.

Many of the readers here may recall phone conversations and emails with 
them during my information-gathering phase.

I had to set the project aside because funding proved difficult.  I hope 
to return to it as my own resources allow me to resume the arduous 
funding process.

The UI part of it was based around levels, but less like HyperCard's, 
and more like what you're looking for.  HC's user levels were based 
around authoring capabilities by role, while my EDU design used them 
more like gaming levels for pedagological reasons.

I discussed this project as part of the second half of my Community 
Keynote at the last LC conference, for those of you who have access to 
them (I've asked that my community talks be made available publicly, but 
I can understand that it's not be a high priority).

I'm up to my armpits in commercial development at the moment, but am 
eager to return to this EDU project as soon as funding makes the effort 
viable. Anyone seriously interested in contributing to the efforts to 
help find funding for such a system is welcome to email me at ambassador 
AT fourthworld.com

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems


John Patten wrote:

> Good Morning from SoCal,
> 
> Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode ?developer interface/tool? project?
> 
> If you?ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had multiple development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing tools create buttons that would allow you to ?go to next card? etc. Pretty much no script access. 
> 
> Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities. 
> 
> If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock Hypercard, with access to all developer components (Level 4?)
> 
> Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for newbies?  Something that could be used to introduce, but not initially over whelm a new user?
> 
> Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone down this path and would be willing to share :)
> 
> Thank you!
> John Patten




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Oct 10 16:07:23 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:07:23 -0500
Subject: Catalina
In-Reply-To: <8CC3C01E-BDE6-45EC-BBEE-726EC86E8904@swcp.com>
References: <BF7057FF-BE25-4AD7-A194-C05FDDFE9699@hyperhh.de>
 <2a75f26c-cb24-c420-28b9-86f508ffa0d5@gmail.com>
 <35390A5D-E885-4B09-BC2C-73CC10780DF6@elloco.com>
 <9B74F6F0-6085-436E-BB76-BF3D457A7183@swcp.com>
 <af6a7023-3b6f-674b-bfb3-31d187312a88@hyperactivesw.com>
 <B2B031E9-EBE1-4FFA-940F-7F5230AD8727@swcp.com>
 <0BDF9DB8-02E0-4C3C-B7D0-C3C5349966CD@iotecdigital.com>
 <2AC1D03F-F69B-420E-9E5C-DBCD99A37133@swcp.com>
 <44a1bf10-fdae-f95a-7a0d-a42e7ac26160@gmail.com>
 <8CC3C01E-BDE6-45EC-BBEE-726EC86E8904@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <4179ad96-229a-53c3-d987-601be4a563cf@hyperactivesw.com>

Sand Which

On 10/10/19 1:18 PM, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
> Yes!
> 
> We need a cool name like that, too.
> Code32
> MoreMojave
> CantLetGo
> TimeScope
> macWrap32
> 32Palms
> Wrap32with64
> DoubleMy32
> Sand
> 
> It looks like I can't come up with anything as cool as WineBottler
> 
> Dar Scott
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> This sounds a bit like WineBottler:
>>
>> http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/
>>
>> On 10.10.19 20:48, Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Being a mad scientist causes my mind to wander. I implied some sort of application that would take a 32-bit macOS app and turn it into a 64-bit app suitable for delivering to customers in the interim. But I gave solutions only for a sophisticated user to run 32-bit applications from Catalina (or so) desktop.
>>>
>>> My immediate thoughts: Bundles might make a conversion for the macOS easier. Dependent 32-bit dynamic libraries would have to be moved into a folder in the bundle, and file I/O will do redirection. The app's program would be moved and replaced with something else that uses some sort of hyper-something to catch the INTs or that will use ptrace() as a debugger would. In the latter case the INTs might need to be translated statically by the converter. I have not made a modern debugger, tracer or hyper-thing, so I'm just guessing.
>>>
>>> Dar
>>>
>>>> On Oct 10, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mad scientist indeed! ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Bob S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 9, 2019, at 16:59 , Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh. That looks hard. I don't even know how to take control of the 0x80 interrupt.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, here are some ideas for alternatives.
>>>>>
>>>>> Virtual
>>>>>
>>>>> Parallels has Coherence; Virtual Box has Seamless Mode; VMware has Unity. (I don't use these, so check out what I say.) The capability is roughly the same. You can run an application on a client OS in a window on the host. So, if you have an older macOS running on a virtual machine that can run your app, you can set things up so that you can double-click on your desktop and run a 32-bit app.
>>>>>
>>>>> Real
>>>>>
>>>>> Another method is to set up little "servers" you can remote into. For example, instead of upgrading to Catalina on your old Mac Mini, get a new Mac Mini with Catalina and remote desktop into the old Mac Mini. Or have a Mac that is running several virtual machines you can remote into (use memory ballooning to share it well). The Apple EULA has constraints, but I think this is OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, what if you can run an app on a remote machine like Coherence/Unity/SM? You can readily run a single app in a window for a linux server using several programs such as nomachine and (I think) xpra. But I don't know about macOS. Maybe you can make a single-window app full screen and adjust the size of the client window. I haven't tried this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dar Scott
>>>>> Mad Scientist
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From tore.nilsen at me.com  Thu Oct 10 16:22:13 2019
From: tore.nilsen at me.com (Tore Nilsen)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 22:22:13 +0200
Subject: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer
 Interface)
In-Reply-To: <D70743B0-0B45-47F3-A6D1-D59396B4554C@byu.edu>
References: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
 <82F2A75E-A9C8-40F8-B241-EC19E8E9C7BB@byu.edu>
 <a70566b5-4867-ed52-8036-09a45a74b494@gmail.com>
 <D70743B0-0B45-47F3-A6D1-D59396B4554C@byu.edu>
Message-ID: <EB07B550-21EC-4946-AE6E-CF82D6E7C638@me.com>

Hi!

I teach a beginners course in programming on highschool level in Norway. Just like Devin, I have found that the most important thing is what you want your students to learn. The development environment is not very important. I try to introduce various components in a way that helps build the students understanding of the fundamental concepts and principles used in programming.

I use a methodology quite similar to the one Devin suggests at the end of his reply. 

1. I present and show my students a concept/principles/method
2. We use this concept on various simple problems together in the class - this will often be accompanied by classroom discussion
3. The students then get a task where they can apply the concept on a problem that is quite similar to the problems used in point 1 and 2
4. Then I give my students a task which involves a more complex problem, where the application of the concept is not very obvious. At this point I encourage my students to help each other with the task.
5. The students then show their various attempts at solving the problem, either to a group of students or the whole class, and we discuss the various solutions in class
6. If needed I will then show them examples of ?best practises?. Here I will also present various controls and how they can be used as part of the solution of the given problem

At the moment we are setting up the classroom to facilitate this approach in a better way. The classroom is divided into five groups, each group having its own large table with a 42 inch monitor, that all students can connect to, at the end of the table. We are about to set up a solution with HDMI Matrix Switches that will allow each student to route their screen to any of the monitors and to the main projector if needed. Likewise, I can share my screen with any of the monitors or the main projector. This will help my students in sharing their solutions/problems with each other.

Like Devin, I have also come across research that seems to indicate that drilling is better than complex problem solving in teaching basic skills. However, my experience is that to much of this will make it harder for my students to become good problem solvers. In my course, all students must develop an application of their own choosing, from initial idea to finished product, in the last term. Many of my students have indicated that this have been the most important factor in the development of both understanding of and skills in programming. I think that the most important factor in this is the kind of problem the students face in step 4 of this method. This problem most be near enough to the original problem, but still different from it. This decides the quality of the discussions we get after the students have tried to solve the problem.

Best regards
Tore Nilsen

> 10. okt. 2019 kl. 20:36 skrev Devin Asay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> RIchmond has an excellent point: your development environment is less important than your goal.
> 
> The reason that all of us immediately typed ?set the userLevel to 5? in HyperCard is that you wouldn?t get far in your task until you needed a bump-up to a higher level of capabilities.
> 
> I also teach beginning programming (beginning application development is actually a better term), but to college students rather than primary kids. I realized recently like a bolt of lightening that I have been spending far too much instruction time describing the development environment and too little on setting tasks and then telling the students about the tools in LC that let them accomplish the task. I don?t know why it took me so long to come to that insight, because ?need-based? learning is how I learned both HyperCard and LiveCode. (And probably how most of us learned.) Now I?m thinking about ways to incorporate more task-based instruction into my classes.
> 
> But then I?m faced with the paradox that, according to some of the research I?ve looked at on teaching programming, large problem solving assignments are less effective than focused focused practice in teaching fundamental programming concepts. What I take from that is that students are helped by ?drilling? a concept with canned, focused, smaller tasks than they are by setting them a complex problem to solve. So my evolving approach is 1. present a concept, 2. do some drill and practice on the concept, 3. set them a more complex task that requires them to apply the concept.
> 
> I had imagined by this time in my career that I?d have figured this all out. I might just be slow. :-)
> 
> Devin



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Oct 10 16:36:11 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:36:11 -0500
Subject: Android/Java PKCS12 Industry format Keystore
In-Reply-To: <d995f9fe-4835-def0-21f9-a508851565ea@krutt.org>
References: <d995f9fe-4835-def0-21f9-a508851565ea@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <edb37cd8-a0e0-3ffb-4e3f-79a7cf5a912e@hyperactivesw.com>

I use the example from Google, which is identical to the example in the 
LC lesson. This is Google:

keytool -genkey -v -keystore my-release-key.jks -keyalg RSA -keysize 
2048 -validity 10000 -alias my-alias

This is the LC lesson (using Windows exe):
keytool.exe -genkey -v -keystore release.keystore -alias TicTacToe 
-keyalg RSA -keysize 2048 -validity 10000

I have never seen any warnings.

On 10/10/19 1:55 PM, JJS via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> have some people already changed their? (Android/Java) keystore keys to 
> the PKCS12 format?
> 
> 
> When creating a keystore key i get this warning a few times:
> 
> 
> Warning:
> The JKS keystore uses a proprietary format.
> It is recommended to migrate to PKCS12 which is an industry standard 
> format using "keytool -importkeystore -srckeystore yourapp.keystore 
> -destkeystore yourapp.keystore -deststoretype pkcs12".
> 
> Or still using the proprietary format?
> 
> Regards.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 10 17:01:40 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 00:01:40 +0300
Subject: Primary Student Livecode Interface (Simplified Developer
 Interface)
In-Reply-To: <03cef66b-463a-6976-80c4-b4ec3348c174@fourthworld.com>
References: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
 <03cef66b-463a-6976-80c4-b4ec3348c174@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <e4c2c309-5a96-27f6-2bcd-8be7889c2ab2@gmail.com>

I have moved this discussion over here as there is the possibility to 
use pictures here,
while one cannot on the Use-List.

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=33206&p=184151#p184149

On 10.10.19 22:01, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Three years ago I spent several months researching both the learner 
> experience and how to fund, document, and market a UI specifically for 
> young learners based on LiveCode Community Edition.
>
> Many of the readers here may recall phone conversations and emails 
> with them during my information-gathering phase.
>
> I had to set the project aside because funding proved difficult. I 
> hope to return to it as my own resources allow me to resume the 
> arduous funding process.
>
> The UI part of it was based around levels, but less like HyperCard's, 
> and more like what you're looking for.? HC's user levels were based 
> around authoring capabilities by role, while my EDU design used them 
> more like gaming levels for pedagological reasons.
>
> I discussed this project as part of the second half of my Community 
> Keynote at the last LC conference, for those of you who have access to 
> them (I've asked that my community talks be made available publicly, 
> but I can understand that it's not be a high priority).
>
> I'm up to my armpits in commercial development at the moment, but am 
> eager to return to this EDU project as soon as funding makes the 
> effort viable. Anyone seriously interested in contributing to the 
> efforts to help find funding for such a system is welcome to email me 
> at ambassador AT fourthworld.com
>
> -- 
> ?Richard Gaskin
> ?Fourth World Systems
>
>
> John Patten wrote:
>
>> Good Morning from SoCal,
>>
>> Quick question, anybody ever develop a simplified LiveCode ?developer 
>> interface/tool? project?
>>
>> If you?ve been around awhile, you might remember how HyperCard had 
>> multiple development modes. Level one allowed you to use drawing 
>> tools create buttons that would allow you to ?go to next card? etc. 
>> Pretty much no script access.
>> Levels 2-3 gradually provided more capabilities.
>> If you new the correct procedure, you could completely unlock 
>> Hypercard, with access to all developer components (Level 4?)
>>
>> Has anybody created a simplified Livecode developer interface for 
>> newbies?? Something that could be used to introduce, but not 
>> initially over whelm a new user?
>>
>> Just trying to not reinvent the wheel, if someone has already gone 
>> down this path and would be willing to share :)
>>
>> Thank you!
>> John Patten
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Thu Oct 10 17:17:09 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 17:17:09 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <696B580B-0758-4EE4-AF56-8E67ECE2B1F0@iotecdigital.com>
References: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>
 <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>
 <696B580B-0758-4EE4-AF56-8E67ECE2B1F0@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CADCoycPn+aEM4o5HPdMeeK5n+cD85JVXTpec2-j8=cLs=FQJyA@mail.gmail.com>

wow, i managed to mute this conversation.  fail.
@paul, that's exactly why we ponied up, too, as an insurance policy.  we
have been burned by numerous organizations either abandoning their software
work product or disappearing.  thankfully, for most of our mission-critical
stuff, we have, own, and maintain the source.
@Sean, I'm not generally thinking of the underlying engine for the bounty
program, I'm thinking of pieces in LCS/LCB.  In those cases, the PR doesn't
get submitted to the LC repo until whatever step it was further down.
There isn't any reason why private repos can't be used to manage this
process, especially with submodules.  The patrons would have access to the
repo, no one else would.
As for the conversation about the unfinished projects that all of us ponied
up for on a promise, I 100% agree, which is why the funds are escrowed.
The developer proposing a solution doesn't get paid until the patch is
tested and approved by the patrons of the patch.

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 11:02 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> +1 Richard. I got onboard with what user to be Runtime Revolution (I think
> it was version 2!) Where livecode is today is orders of magnitude more than
> it was when it first started. There was no datagrid. No way to display
> tabular data apart from a very simple table field. No arrays. Difficult and
> confusing database APIs. No mobile support. The list goes on.
>
> LC is like a really good girlfriend. She isn't everything I ever wanted,
> but she's good enough for me. :-)
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 8, 2019, at 19:49 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Pi Digital wrote:
> >
> > >> On 8 Oct 2019, at 21:42, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> > >>
> > >> And here is a May 2016 update:
> > >>
> > >>
> https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large
> > >> number of times.
> > >>
> > >> How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent
> > >> information is absorbed?
> > >
> > > An excellent article. Which part was you pointing to in reference to
> > > Lagi?s question about older campaigns funded that have still not met
> > > the core?
> >
> > There's a section in the middle listing off the accomplishments since
> the Kickstarter, and some of the discussion goes into how much of that was
> paid for out-of-pocket.
> >
> >
> > > And which part do you refer to when asserting that absorption of info
> > > is needed to reduce the same conversations recursion rate?
> >
> > The portion of Lagi's post I had originally quoted in my reply:
> >
> >    This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms
> >    - no communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
> >    as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what
> >    is the intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....
> >
> > He's one of about three people who keep going back to the Kickstarter
> list as some form of eternal damnation against the team, and he knows that
> I know that he's read comments here and in the forums from Kevin and other
> team members that have discussed all of that over and over and over and
> over again.
> >
> > How many times does Kevin need to post a mea culpa about being among the
> 80% of software project leaders that underestimated cost?  Apparently half
> a dozen isn't enough.
> >
> > In summary: Most of the list was delivered, most of the remainder is in
> the DB as feature requests to be completed as resources permit.
> >
> >
> > Kevin, Heather, Mark and others have been very forthcoming here about
> what the company is working on, at least to the degree that this community
> allows.  But there's not much allowance granted:
> >
> > As they've explained many times, they've joined the majority of
> companies less willing to offer loose projections about delivery times
> precisely because of things like this.  If they give a projected deadline
> and circumstances change, it will become a dominant and repeated theme
> among a very small but very vocal minority.  This isn't unique to LC; their
> previous candor was a distinction.  Now they operate like everyone else,
> because the moment they dare to discuss anything not already in the can
> they expose themselves to a continuation of this same tediousness that
> every other company figured out how to avoid by keeping cards close.
> >
> > Wanna know what Apple's working on for 2020? Good luck.
> >
> > --
> > Richard Gaskin
> > Fourth World Systems
> > Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> > ____________________________________________________________________
> > Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Thu Oct 10 19:20:33 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 19:20:33 -0400
Subject: Google Play API 28 11/1/2019
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycPn+aEM4o5HPdMeeK5n+cD85JVXTpec2-j8=cLs=FQJyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>
 <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>
 <696B580B-0758-4EE4-AF56-8E67ECE2B1F0@iotecdigital.com>
 <CADCoycPn+aEM4o5HPdMeeK5n+cD85JVXTpec2-j8=cLs=FQJyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005301d57fc1$532c3740$f984a5c0$@net>

FYI: Received this from Google Play today. I submitted QCC report 22407.

Hello Google Play Developer, 
This is a reminder that starting November 1, 2019, updates to apps and games on Google Play will be required to target Android 9 (API level 28) or higher. After this date, the Play Console will prevent you from submitting new APKs with a targetSdkVersion less than 28. 
Configuring your app to target a recent API level ensures that users benefit from significant security and performance improvements, while still allowing your app to run on older Android versions (down to the minSdkVersion). 

Action required 
Please ensure that your apps are configured to target at least Android 9 (API level 28) by November 1, 2019. For technical advice on how to change your app's target API level to meet these requirements, refer to the migration guide. 
Affected apps 

The apps included below have one or more APKs?in production or testing tracks?that aren't currently targeting API level 28 or higher. Apps are listed with the maximum version code and corresponding targetSdkVersion. If you have more than 20 apps that could be affected in your account, please check the Play Console for a full list. 

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net




From jjs at krutt.org  Fri Oct 11 07:34:29 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 13:34:29 +0200
Subject: Android/Java PKCS12 Industry format Keystore
In-Reply-To: <edb37cd8-a0e0-3ffb-4e3f-79a7cf5a912e@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <d995f9fe-4835-def0-21f9-a508851565ea@krutt.org>
 <edb37cd8-a0e0-3ffb-4e3f-79a7cf5a912e@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <38F73B9B-C7F0-43D3-A646-8B98B01097EA@krutt.org>

That's the same i use too. Maybe the updated java is the cause of the warning. Latest of jave jdk 8. The keys still work, so i was curious if this could have consequences.

"J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 10 oktober 2019 22:36:11 CEST:
>I use the example from Google, which is identical to the example in the
>
>LC lesson. This is Google:
>
>keytool -genkey -v -keystore my-release-key.jks -keyalg RSA -keysize 
>2048 -validity 10000 -alias my-alias
>
>This is the LC lesson (using Windows exe):
>keytool.exe -genkey -v -keystore release.keystore -alias TicTacToe 
>-keyalg RSA -keysize 2048 -validity 10000
>
>I have never seen any warnings.
>
>On 10/10/19 1:55 PM, JJS via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> have some people already changed their? (Android/Java) keystore keys
>to 
>> the PKCS12 format?
>> 
>> 
>> When creating a keystore key i get this warning a few times:
>> 
>> 
>> Warning:
>> The JKS keystore uses a proprietary format.
>> It is recommended to migrate to PKCS12 which is an industry standard 
>> format using "keytool -importkeystore -srckeystore yourapp.keystore 
>> -destkeystore yourapp.keystore -deststoretype pkcs12".
>> 
>> Or still using the proprietary format?
>> 
>> Regards.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>-- 
>Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From ingar.roggen at sosiologi.uio.no  Fri Oct 11 09:41:59 2019
From: ingar.roggen at sosiologi.uio.no (Ingar Roggen)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 13:41:59 +0000
Subject: Is it possible to implement Weizenbaum's original Eliza as a chatbot
 with LIVECODE?
In-Reply-To: <a70566b5-4867-ed52-8036-09a45a74b494@gmail.com>
References: <19904E62-9A86-48B5-87C0-F2CB184055F9@me.com>
 <82F2A75E-A9C8-40F8-B241-EC19E8E9C7BB@byu.edu>
 <a70566b5-4867-ed52-8036-09a45a74b494@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C5DA22F-CF65-44E4-9908-C10A76F64978@sosgeo.uio.no>

May be someone even has experience with similar attempts? I would be grateful for any suggestions.
Ingar


From hh at hyperhh.de  Fri Oct 11 11:15:39 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 17:15:39 +0200
Subject: Is it possible to implement Weizenbaum's original Eliza as a
 chatbot  with LIVECODE?
Message-ID: <211C07DA-E2E8-4301-AB4E-37B3D1042EE3@hyperhh.de>

You could build on

https://www.masswerk.at/elizabot/

They build there in javascript on it for a "terminal" or
speech i/o.

You could similarly make a LC GUI based on elizabot.js in
a browser widget.

Or moreover translate elizabot.js to LiveCode. The js is
already object oriented and has 1.7K in < 400 lines.



From heather at livecode.com  Fri Oct 11 13:02:20 2019
From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 18:02:20 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <CADCoycPn+aEM4o5HPdMeeK5n+cD85JVXTpec2-j8=cLs=FQJyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>
 <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>
 <696B580B-0758-4EE4-AF56-8E67ECE2B1F0@iotecdigital.com>
 <CADCoycPn+aEM4o5HPdMeeK5n+cD85JVXTpec2-j8=cLs=FQJyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7746AA41-CA80-4070-9ED1-E890C9A01CFE@livecode.com>

For what its worth, I think this is the way to go. A totally community run initiative, with a bounty on bug fixes. Someone or several someones outside of the LiveCode team would need to take responsibility for setting up a structure. We'd love to see bugs being fixed, by members of the community. It's kind of the reason behind Open Source. There are plenty of bugs that would be suitable, which don't require deep dives into the engine. Pull requests arrive in the usual manner and get approved or fed back on in the normal scheme of things by our team. If this could be encouraged by a bounty on fixes, funded by the community, run by the community and entirely outside of LiveCode Ltd.'s scope, what's not to like? Our overstretched resources would be augmented by a community team, and the dual nature of the licensing would bear fruit in a new and productive manner. I like it. 

Over to you. 

Best Regards,

Heather


Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 10 Oct 2019, at 22:17, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> wow, i managed to mute this conversation.  fail.
> @paul, that's exactly why we ponied up, too, as an insurance policy.  we
> have been burned by numerous organizations either abandoning their software
> work product or disappearing.  thankfully, for most of our mission-critical
> stuff, we have, own, and maintain the source.
> @Sean, I'm not generally thinking of the underlying engine for the bounty
> program, I'm thinking of pieces in LCS/LCB.  In those cases, the PR doesn't
> get submitted to the LC repo until whatever step it was further down.
> There isn't any reason why private repos can't be used to manage this
> process, especially with submodules.  The patrons would have access to the
> repo, no one else would.
> As for the conversation about the unfinished projects that all of us ponied
> up for on a promise, I 100% agree, which is why the funds are escrowed.
> The developer proposing a solution doesn't get paid until the patch is
> tested and approved by the patrons of the patch.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 11:02 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> +1 Richard. I got onboard with what user to be Runtime Revolution (I think
>> it was version 2!) Where livecode is today is orders of magnitude more than
>> it was when it first started. There was no datagrid. No way to display
>> tabular data apart from a very simple table field. No arrays. Difficult and
>> confusing database APIs. No mobile support. The list goes on.
>> 
>> LC is like a really good girlfriend. She isn't everything I ever wanted,
>> but she's good enough for me. :-)
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 8, 2019, at 19:49 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Pi Digital wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> On 8 Oct 2019, at 21:42, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> And here is a May 2016 update:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large
>>>>> number of times.
>>>>> 
>>>>> How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent
>>>>> information is absorbed?
>>>> 
>>>> An excellent article. Which part was you pointing to in reference to
>>>> Lagi?s question about older campaigns funded that have still not met
>>>> the core?
>>> 
>>> There's a section in the middle listing off the accomplishments since
>> the Kickstarter, and some of the discussion goes into how much of that was
>> paid for out-of-pocket.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> And which part do you refer to when asserting that absorption of info
>>>> is needed to reduce the same conversations recursion rate?
>>> 
>>> The portion of Lagi's post I had originally quoted in my reply:
>>> 
>>>   This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms
>>>   - no communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
>>>   as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what
>>>   is the intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....
>>> 
>>> He's one of about three people who keep going back to the Kickstarter
>> list as some form of eternal damnation against the team, and he knows that
>> I know that he's read comments here and in the forums from Kevin and other
>> team members that have discussed all of that over and over and over and
>> over again.
>>> 
>>> How many times does Kevin need to post a mea culpa about being among the
>> 80% of software project leaders that underestimated cost?  Apparently half
>> a dozen isn't enough.
>>> 
>>> In summary: Most of the list was delivered, most of the remainder is in
>> the DB as feature requests to be completed as resources permit.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Kevin, Heather, Mark and others have been very forthcoming here about
>> what the company is working on, at least to the degree that this community
>> allows.  But there's not much allowance granted:
>>> 
>>> As they've explained many times, they've joined the majority of
>> companies less willing to offer loose projections about delivery times
>> precisely because of things like this.  If they give a projected deadline
>> and circumstances change, it will become a dominant and repeated theme
>> among a very small but very vocal minority.  This isn't unique to LC; their
>> previous candor was a distinction.  Now they operate like everyone else,
>> because the moment they dare to discuss anything not already in the can
>> they expose themselves to a continuation of this same tediousness that
>> every other company figured out how to avoid by keeping cards close.
>>> 
>>> Wanna know what Apple's working on for 2020? Good luck.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Richard Gaskin
>>> Fourth World Systems
>>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From hh at hyperhh.de  Fri Oct 11 15:14:47 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 21:14:47 +0200
Subject: Give a bug a hug
Message-ID: <FA44967D-DA30-4BE6-BA06-EDEBA9D15119@hyperhh.de>

This is a wonderful project.

Should be limited to bugs that are NOT regressions.
And instead extended by feature requests.



From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com  Fri Oct 11 15:48:32 2019
From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 15:48:32 -0400
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <FA44967D-DA30-4BE6-BA06-EDEBA9D15119@hyperhh.de>
References: <FA44967D-DA30-4BE6-BA06-EDEBA9D15119@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <CADCoycPwhxH-3vrr7J=e8tfbPTb+oLw31pUkGcyRxRnpuB-6KQ@mail.gmail.com>

agree

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 3:15 PM hh via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> This is a wonderful project.
>
> Should be limited to bugs that are NOT regressions.
> And instead extended by feature requests.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."


From hh at hyperhh.de  Fri Oct 11 18:38:43 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 00:38:43 +0200
Subject: Is it possible to implement Weizenbaum's original Eliza as a 
 chatbot  with LIVECODE?
Message-ID: <A4306227-A265-49B4-B350-46FEEC2DC7BE@hyperhh.de>

> I wrote:
> You could build on https://www.masswerk.at/elizabot/
> ...
> You could similarly make a LC GUI based on elizabot.js in
> a browser widget.
> ...

Here is a basic LiveCode GUI:
Browser Widget usage example #28: ELIZA_bot
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=184198#p184198

The jslib and the vocabulary are included in the stack.
Moreover that default vocabulary is attached for editing
(you can the chnaged file import to the stack, replacing
the default vocabulary, using button "ImportData").



From capellan2000 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 11 19:55:37 2019
From: capellan2000 at gmail.com (Alejandro Tejada)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 19:55:37 -0400
Subject: Is it possible to implement Weizenbaum's original Eliza as a
 chatbot  with LIVECODE?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1570809602.241074.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1570809602.241074.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3QPOxrBo80hm1SSqitEwPZmiCx_6aQjGLvPS1K+jQDE97TDA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ingar,

Check this stack:
https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=33212

based on this HyperCard stack:
http://umich.edu/~archive/mac/hypercard/fun/spectresmart2.5.sit.hqx

Al


From jjs at krutt.org  Sat Oct 12 03:50:07 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 09:50:07 +0200
Subject: Is it possible to implement Weizenbaum's original Eliza as a
 chatbot with LIVECODE?
In-Reply-To: <A4306227-A265-49B4-B350-46FEEC2DC7BE@hyperhh.de>
References: <A4306227-A265-49B4-B350-46FEEC2DC7BE@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <CB9D329F-BF26-45DA-91F3-6EEACE597EA8@krutt.org>

Nice! I thought first what the h.... Is it. But then i saw the screenshot, and it flashed thru my mind. I remember having it on the MSX too. Asking questions and getting answers. It's the same right? Actually the first AI heh

hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 12 oktober 2019 00:38:43 CEST:
>> I wrote:
>> You could build on https://www.masswerk.at/elizabot/
>> ...
>> You could similarly make a LC GUI based on elizabot.js in
>> a browser widget.
>> ...
>
>Here is a basic LiveCode GUI:
>Browser Widget usage example #28: ELIZA_bot
>http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=184198#p184198
>
>The jslib and the vocabulary are included in the stack.
>Moreover that default vocabulary is attached for editing
>(you can the chnaged file import to the stack, replacing
>the default vocabulary, using button "ImportData").
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From klaus at major-k.de  Sat Oct 12 06:37:31 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 12:37:31 +0200
Subject: id3lib from Mark Smith -> id3_getPictureData
Message-ID: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>

Hi all,

I am currently looking at the "id3lib" of Mark Smith, works fine,
however I cannot get the function "id3_getPictureData" to return
usable data.

I am using the function correctly, passing the correct parameter
dfor the image TYPE, but it returns nothing I can use in an image 
object nor export to any valid image file.

I am using a MP3 file which definitively contains a JPG, so that 
function should return usable data but doesn't.

This binary stuff is way over my head, so anyone can help?

Thanks a lot in advance.


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Sat Oct 12 11:01:50 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 16:01:50 +0100
Subject: Give a bug a hug
In-Reply-To: <7746AA41-CA80-4070-9ED1-E890C9A01CFE@livecode.com>
References: <5D6E486D-B358-4452-BB26-DB11AB3457F8@pidigital.co.uk>
 <1d077da4-dc70-c6c2-2ee9-4a8452caa2f4@fourthworld.com>
 <696B580B-0758-4EE4-AF56-8E67ECE2B1F0@iotecdigital.com>
 <CADCoycPn+aEM4o5HPdMeeK5n+cD85JVXTpec2-j8=cLs=FQJyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7746AA41-CA80-4070-9ED1-E890C9A01CFE@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VD66=GcQCMntfg6nE1YGjZv+VdxCR7pa37_k6tFUSJdbQ@mail.gmail.com>

It would help if Brian, Panos, Trevor (anybody who has got a setup ready to
compile)  created an idiots guide(s) as to what compilers to install, any
land mines to cross
any tricks that they have learnt etc because what seems to happen with me ,
I start something which doesn't put food on the table,
spend 3 or 4 hours fighting non existent documentation - leave it for
another day then probably have to start from  scratch again  when I've
forgotten what i'd learnt, or deleted
35G of Visual strudio that i'd installed .....

Maybe a simpler (morons guide) version - an overview of the ide and
understand (and modify ) it as a starter.

Lagi



On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 18:02, Heather Laine via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> For what its worth, I think this is the way to go. A totally community run
> initiative, with a bounty on bug fixes. Someone or several someones outside
> of the LiveCode team would need to take responsibility for setting up a
> structure. We'd love to see bugs being fixed, by members of the community.
> It's kind of the reason behind Open Source. There are plenty of bugs that
> would be suitable, which don't require deep dives into the engine. Pull
> requests arrive in the usual manner and get approved or fed back on in the
> normal scheme of things by our team. If this could be encouraged by a
> bounty on fixes, funded by the community, run by the community and entirely
> outside of LiveCode Ltd.'s scope, what's not to like? Our overstretched
> resources would be augmented by a community team, and the dual nature of
> the licensing would bear fruit in a new and productive manner. I like it.
>
> Over to you.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Heather
>
>
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> LiveCode Ltd
> www.livecode.com
>
>
>
> > On 10 Oct 2019, at 22:17, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > wow, i managed to mute this conversation.  fail.
> > @paul, that's exactly why we ponied up, too, as an insurance policy.  we
> > have been burned by numerous organizations either abandoning their
> software
> > work product or disappearing.  thankfully, for most of our
> mission-critical
> > stuff, we have, own, and maintain the source.
> > @Sean, I'm not generally thinking of the underlying engine for the bounty
> > program, I'm thinking of pieces in LCS/LCB.  In those cases, the PR
> doesn't
> > get submitted to the LC repo until whatever step it was further down.
> > There isn't any reason why private repos can't be used to manage this
> > process, especially with submodules.  The patrons would have access to
> the
> > repo, no one else would.
> > As for the conversation about the unfinished projects that all of us
> ponied
> > up for on a promise, I 100% agree, which is why the funds are escrowed.
> > The developer proposing a solution doesn't get paid until the patch is
> > tested and approved by the patrons of the patch.
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 11:02 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> +1 Richard. I got onboard with what user to be Runtime Revolution (I
> think
> >> it was version 2!) Where livecode is today is orders of magnitude more
> than
> >> it was when it first started. There was no datagrid. No way to display
> >> tabular data apart from a very simple table field. No arrays. Difficult
> and
> >> confusing database APIs. No mobile support. The list goes on.
> >>
> >> LC is like a really good girlfriend. She isn't everything I ever wanted,
> >> but she's good enough for me. :-)
> >>
> >> Bob S
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Oct 8, 2019, at 19:49 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Pi Digital wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> On 8 Oct 2019, at 21:42, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And here is a May 2016 update:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> https://livecode.com/trevor-devore-interviews-kevin-mark-on-infinite-livecode/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A small number of people keep going round and round on this a large
> >>>>> number of times.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How many times will the same conversation happen before more recent
> >>>>> information is absorbed?
> >>>>
> >>>> An excellent article. Which part was you pointing to in reference to
> >>>> Lagi?s question about older campaigns funded that have still not met
> >>>> the core?
> >>>
> >>> There's a section in the middle listing off the accomplishments since
> >> the Kickstarter, and some of the discussion goes into how much of that
> was
> >> paid for out-of-pocket.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> And which part do you refer to when asserting that absorption of info
> >>>> is needed to reduce the same conversations recursion rate?
> >>>
> >>> The portion of Lagi's post I had originally quoted in my reply:
> >>>
> >>>   This is what I was talking about being treated like mushrooms
> >>>   - no communication as to what the future holds.- rough timescales
> >>>   as to when new or reassigned resources will be implemented - what
> >>>   is the intention with sqlite, 2d physics, Audio ....
> >>>
> >>> He's one of about three people who keep going back to the Kickstarter
> >> list as some form of eternal damnation against the team, and he knows
> that
> >> I know that he's read comments here and in the forums from Kevin and
> other
> >> team members that have discussed all of that over and over and over and
> >> over again.
> >>>
> >>> How many times does Kevin need to post a mea culpa about being among
> the
> >> 80% of software project leaders that underestimated cost?  Apparently
> half
> >> a dozen isn't enough.
> >>>
> >>> In summary: Most of the list was delivered, most of the remainder is in
> >> the DB as feature requests to be completed as resources permit.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kevin, Heather, Mark and others have been very forthcoming here about
> >> what the company is working on, at least to the degree that this
> community
> >> allows.  But there's not much allowance granted:
> >>>
> >>> As they've explained many times, they've joined the majority of
> >> companies less willing to offer loose projections about delivery times
> >> precisely because of things like this.  If they give a projected
> deadline
> >> and circumstances change, it will become a dominant and repeated theme
> >> among a very small but very vocal minority.  This isn't unique to LC;
> their
> >> previous candor was a distinction.  Now they operate like everyone else,
> >> because the moment they dare to discuss anything not already in the can
> >> they expose themselves to a continuation of this same tediousness that
> >> every other company figured out how to avoid by keeping cards close.
> >>>
> >>> Wanna know what Apple's working on for 2020? Good luck.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Richard Gaskin
> >>> Fourth World Systems
> >>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> >>> ____________________________________________________________________
> >>> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> >   and did a little diving.
> > And God said, "This is good."
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Sat Oct 12 11:52:17 2019
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 17:52:17 +0200
Subject: id3lib from Mark Smith -> id3_getPictureData
In-Reply-To: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>
References: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>

Hi Klaus,

i?ve tried here with  library version 1.0.2 and an mp3 file which contains only 1 image.

I was able to read the picture data from the .mp3 and to store to a new file.

Regards,

Matthias

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

> Am 12.10.2019 um 12:37 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I am currently looking at the "id3lib" of Mark Smith, works fine,
> however I cannot get the function "id3_getPictureData" to return
> usable data.
> 
> I am using the function correctly, passing the correct parameter
> dfor the image TYPE, but it returns nothing I can use in an image 
> object nor export to any valid image file.
> 
> I am using a MP3 file which definitively contains a JPG, so that 
> function should return usable data but doesn't.
> 
> This binary stuff is way over my head, so anyone can help?
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance.
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de <https://www.major-k.de/>
> klaus at major-k.de
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From klaus at major-k.de  Sat Oct 12 16:05:27 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 22:05:27 +0200
Subject: id3lib from Mark Smith -> id3_getPictureData
In-Reply-To: <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>
References: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>
 <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <39A0B54B-2A0D-45F8-A841-B74524D8C33C@major-k.de>

Hi Matthias,

> Am 12.10.2019 um 17:52 schrieb Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hi Klaus,
> 
> i?ve tried here with  library version 1.0.2 and an mp3 file which contains only 1 image.
> I was able to read the picture data from the .mp3 and to store to a new file.

aha, I have version 1.0 here, will try with the newer one, thanks!

> Regards,
> 
> Matthias
> 
> Matthias Rebbe

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From klaus at major-k.de  Sat Oct 12 16:27:33 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 22:27:33 +0200
Subject: id3lib from Mark Smith -> id3_getPictureData
In-Reply-To: <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>
References: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>
 <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <5494FF00-3E9E-4254-B6E1-DB9A39D0E835@major-k.de>

Hi Matthias,

> Am 12.10.2019 um 17:52 schrieb Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hi Klaus,
> 
> i?ve tried here with  library version 1.0.2 and an mp3 file which contains only 1 image.
> I was able to read the picture data from the .mp3 and to store to a new file.

yeah, that works, thanks for the hint! :-)

> Regards,
> 
> Matthias

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Sat Oct 12 16:27:24 2019
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 22:27:24 +0200
Subject: id3lib from Mark Smith -> id3_getPictureData
In-Reply-To: <39A0B54B-2A0D-45F8-A841-B74524D8C33C@major-k.de>
References: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>
 <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>
 <39A0B54B-2A0D-45F8-A841-B74524D8C33C@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <9D2DB776-52AD-43B1-85EC-F95B80854271@m-r-d.de>

In case you need 1.02, just let me know.

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

> Am 12.10.2019 um 22:05 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> Hi Matthias,
> 
>> Am 12.10.2019 um 17:52 schrieb Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
>> 
>> Hi Klaus,
>> 
>> i?ve tried here with  library version 1.0.2 and an mp3 file which contains only 1 image.
>> I was able to read the picture data from the .mp3 and to store to a new file.
> 
> aha, I have version 1.0 here, will try with the newer one, thanks!
> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Matthias
>> 
>> Matthias Rebbe
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> 
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de <https://www.major-k.de/>
> klaus at major-k.de
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From paul at researchware.com  Sat Oct 12 16:28:19 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 16:28:19 -0400
Subject: launch & quit
Message-ID: <94c8a1ad-9cae-fc19-0bb2-96ce4c3840e8@researchware.com>

I have a stand alone with a card with a button with a mouseUp handler

on mouseUp

 ? -- some stuff

 ? -- tApplication variable contains a path to another standalone for 
OSX or Window depending upon what platform() this standalon is running on

 ? launch tApplication
 ? put the result into tError
 ? if tError is not empty then
 ??? answer error tErrormEssage
 ? end if
 ? quit
end mouseUp

On Windows, the designated application launches promptly and my app 
quits immediately.

On OSX, the designated application launches promptly and my app waits 
way too long (a minute or two) before quitting.

Standalone built for OSX and Windows on Windows under LC905

Anyone have any experience like this? Any ideas on what to do to get the 
OSX version to quit when told to quit?



From brahma at hindu.org  Sat Oct 12 20:20:13 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 00:20:13 +0000
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
Message-ID: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Assuming one is not putting whole pages into small fields, does any one have an efficient run time LC algorithm that will set the font size so that the formatted text will all appear in the field without needing to scroll?

BR

Satchiai Iru - Be a Witness


From paul at researchware.com  Sat Oct 12 20:33:15 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 20:33:15 -0400
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>

On 10/12/2019 8:20 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:
> Assuming one is not putting whole pages into small fields, does any one have an efficient run time LC algorithm that will set the font size so that the formatted text will all appear in the field without needing to scroll?
>
> BR
>
> Satchiai Iru - Be a Witness
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>

your essentially want a repeat loop where you reduce the textSize of 
char 1 to -1 of the field until the formattedHeight of the field is less 
than or equal to the height of the field

You probably will need a condition in the loop to prevent the textSize 
from going below 9



From brahma at hindu.org  Sat Oct 12 23:01:23 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 03:01:23 +0000
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>

BR: Hmm I figured that  a repeat loop would do that, but was look for a "one-off-equation" 

		According to the "laws  of math" (ha... algebra....it has been such a long time; I could be wrong) if you have single unknown variable , X, and all others are known factors, you would, in theory, be able to work out X "in one go."
		The [number of characters, in a given font size/face, that can fit on one line of the field with a given length] is, in theory,  among "what can be the known"

		These little repeat loops are costly on mobile....

Paul wrote:
	your essentially want a repeat loop where you reduce the textSize of 
char 1 to -1 of the field until the formattedHeight of the field is less 
than or equal to the height of the field

You probably will need a condition in the loop to prevent the textSize 
from going below 9

BR question
	Assuming one is not putting whole pages into small fields, does any one have an efficient run time LC algorithm that will set the font size so that the formatted text will all appear in the field without needing to scroll?

BR




From brian at milby7.com  Sat Oct 12 23:05:46 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 23:05:46 -0400
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
 <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>

You probably could get close with math but line breaks would not be uniform and will introduce variability. ?You could probably get it down to 2 or 3 checks.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 12, 2019, 11:02 PM -0400, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> BR: Hmm I figured that a repeat loop would do that, but was look for a "one-off-equation"
>
> According to the "laws of math" (ha... algebra....it has been such a long time; I could be wrong) if you have single unknown variable , X, and all others are known factors, you would, in theory, be able to work out X "in one go."
> The [number of characters, in a given font size/face, that can fit on one line of the field with a given length] is, in theory, among "what can be the known"
>
> These little repeat loops are costly on mobile....
>
> Paul wrote:
> your essentially want a repeat loop where you reduce the textSize of
> char 1 to -1 of the field until the formattedHeight of the field is less
> than or equal to the height of the field
>
> You probably will need a condition in the loop to prevent the textSize
> from going below 9
>
> BR question
> Assuming one is not putting whole pages into small fields, does any one have an efficient run time LC algorithm that will set the font size so that the formatted text will all appear in the field without needing to scroll?
>
> BR
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From brahma at hindu.org  Sat Oct 12 23:13:34 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 03:13:34 +0000
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
 <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>
 <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>
Message-ID: <1931D00C-58FA-40C6-835F-243737D8C3E0@hindu.org>

But "line breaks" is another known factor, based on X? which still leaves us on variable to find.

Brian wrote:
You probably could get close with math but line breaks would not be uniform and will introduce variability.  You could probably get it down to 2 or 3 checks.

BR: Hmm I figured that a repeat loop would do that, but was look for a "one-off-equation"

According to the "laws of math" (ha... algebra....it has been such a long time; I could be wrong) if you have single unknown variable , X, and all others are known factors, you would, in theory, be able to work out X "in one go."
The [number of characters, in a given font size/face, that can fit on one line of the field with a given length] is, in theory, among "what can be the known"

These little repeat loops are costly on mobile....

Paul wrote:
your essentially want a repeat loop where you reduce the textSize of
char 1 to -1 of the field until the formattedHeight of the field is less
than or equal to the height of the field

You probably will need a condition in the loop to prevent the textSize
from going below 9

BR question
Assuming one is not putting whole pages into small fields, does any one have an efficient run time LC algorithm that will set the font size so that the formatted text will all appear in the field without needing to scroll?

BR


From hh at hyperhh.de  Sun Oct 13 00:26:20 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 06:26:20 +0200
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
Message-ID: <6F72754C-2151-4EEE-A818-EE0049C5DA0F@hyperhh.de>

In the repeat loop set the attributes of the empty field and use measureText (or measureUnicodeText) to compute the textSize. As a last step fill the field.


From dan at clearvisiontech.com  Sun Oct 13 13:13:06 2019
From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 17:13:06 +0000
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <2925CF16-3F37-444D-BAD7-F511823103F7@clearvisiontech.com>

Sannyasin,

I've been doing this for years.  Works well...

on doShrinkToFit lFldID,startingSize,minSize
  set the textSize of lFldID to startingSize
  repeat until the formattedHeight of lFldID <= the height of lFldID
    set the textSize of lFldID to (the textSize of lFldID - 1)
    if the textSize of lFldID < minSize then
      exit repeat
    end if
  end repeat
end doShrinkToFit

Of course, the moment you start with this type of work, you'll immediately wish LiveCode would support fractional font sizes!

Hope that helps...

-Dan


?On 10/12/19, 5:21 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Assuming one is not putting whole pages into small fields, does any one have an efficient run time LC algorithm that will set the font size so that the formatted text will all appear in the field without needing to scroll?
    
    BR
    
    Satchiai Iru - Be a Witness
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    


From paul at livecode.org  Sun Oct 13 15:44:37 2019
From: paul at livecode.org (Paul Hibbert)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 12:44:37 -0700
Subject: launch & quit
In-Reply-To: <94c8a1ad-9cae-fc19-0bb2-96ce4c3840e8@researchware.com>
References: <94c8a1ad-9cae-fc19-0bb2-96ce4c3840e8@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <D66AB849-622B-4A23-9004-0E88DD53E4A3@livecode.org>

I?ve used quit before on Mac with no problems, so I tried a few tests and it still seems to work fine for me (even with your mismatch variable tError/tErrormEssage).

I tried both with and without generating a deliberate error and it quit straight away, so I?d guess there may be something else causing the delay.

One thing I did notice was that when testing in the IDE the app being launched is brought to the front, but in a standalone the app being launched stayed in the background until I changed the quit command to:

   send ?quit" to me in 10 ticks

This seems to give the app time to launch and come to the front, but the time seems to be be dependant on the size of the app, I tested with another standalone, and Apple Preview.

Tested in LC9.0.5 & LC9.5.0 - same results.

Hope you track down the issue.

Paul

> On Oct 12, 2019, at 13:28, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a stand alone with a card with a button with a mouseUp handler
> 
> on mouseUp
> 
>   -- some stuff
> 
>   -- tApplication variable contains a path to another standalone for OSX or Window depending upon what platform() this standalon is running on
> 
>   launch tApplication
>   put the result into tError
>   if tError is not empty then
>     answer error tErrormEssage
>   end if
>   quit
> end mouseUp
> 
> On Windows, the designated application launches promptly and my app quits immediately.
> 
> On OSX, the designated application launches promptly and my app waits way too long (a minute or two) before quitting.
> 
> Standalone built for OSX and Windows on Windows under LC905
> 
> Anyone have any experience like this? Any ideas on what to do to get the OSX version to quit when told to quit?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From runrev at robelko.de  Sun Oct 13 17:32:49 2019
From: runrev at robelko.de (Robert Brenstein)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 23:32:49 +0200
Subject: launch & quit
In-Reply-To: <94c8a1ad-9cae-fc19-0bb2-96ce4c3840e8@researchware.com>
References: <94c8a1ad-9cae-fc19-0bb2-96ce4c3840e8@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <31E322EA-3D17-422E-AF0B-21C59AF86228@robelko.de>

I?d guess that quit command triggers some closeXxxx handlers to run 
and one causes the delay. The duration of delay sounds a bit like 
network timeout. Have you tried to switch off messages before quit?

> On Oct 12, 2019, at 13:28, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> I have a stand alone with a card with a button with a mouseUp handler
>
> on mouseUp
>
>   -- some stuff
>
>   -- tApplication variable contains a path to another standalone for 
> OSX or Window depending upon what platform() this standalon is running 
> on
>
>   launch tApplication
>   put the result into tError
>   if tError is not empty then
>     answer error tErrormEssage
>   end if
>   quit
> end mouseUp
>
> On Windows, the designated application launches promptly and my app 
> quits immediately.
>
> On OSX, the designated application launches promptly and my app waits 
> way too long (a minute or two) before quitting.
>
> Standalone built for OSX and Windows on Windows under LC905
>
> Anyone have any experience like this? Any ideas on what to do to get 
> the OSX version to quit when told to quit?


From dochawk at gmail.com  Sun Oct 13 17:51:45 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 14:51:45 -0700
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
 <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>
 <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>
Message-ID: <94B507A7-C9D6-4961-90F1-26BE2B297170@gmail.com>


On Oct 12, 2019, at 8:05 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> You probably could get close with math but line breaks would not be uniform and will introduce variability.  You could probably get it down to 2 or 3 checks.

This.

Font scaling itself is nonlinear enough, but the way margins scale with font size is downright psychotic (enough so, that I?d advocate for redoing it with a useOldMarginBehavior property that can be set.).  Changing margin size can change what size font fits in the wrong direction, or by more points than the change, or . . .

But the approach of an initial mathematical computation , followed by the iterations?which must happen in both directions unless a hit is made.



From curry at pair.com  Mon Oct 14 07:16:24 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 07:16:24 -0400
Subject: launch & quit
In-Reply-To: <31E322EA-3D17-422E-AF0B-21C59AF86228@robelko.de>
References: <31E322EA-3D17-422E-AF0B-21C59AF86228@robelko.de>
Message-ID: <8de6cdbc-e0f5-b460-dde2-603034aaadb1@pair.com>


Robert:

 > Have you tried to switch off messages before quit?

Yes - get angry and then quit with prejudice. Lock messages, unload 
libraries, close stacks, etc, and really QUIT! :)

Also, consider an alternate approach to launching the second app, so 
that shell doesn't keep your first app hanging....

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/



From panos.merakos at livecode.com  Mon Oct 14 11:13:10 2019
From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 18:13:10 +0300
Subject: [ANN] This Week in LiveCode 198
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq-5mqJmPX5Xy6yxoy8PWQ-of_iDOPpYsOcPSQdxwXNg_g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Read about new developments in LiveCode open source and the open source
community in today's edition of the "This Week in LiveCode" newsletter!

        Read issue #198 here: http://bit.ly/2MEN0hx

This is a weekly newsletter about LiveCode, focussing on what's been
going on in and around the open source project. New issues will be
released weekly on Mondays. We have a dedicated mailing list that will
deliver each issue directly to you e-mail, so you don't miss any!

If you have anything you'd like mentioned (a project, a discussion
somewhere, an upcoming event) then please get in touch.


-- 
Panagiotis Merakos <panos.merakos at livecode.com>
LiveCode Software Developer

Everyone Can Create Apps <https://livecode.com>


From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Mon Oct 14 11:36:59 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:36:59 -0400
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <94B507A7-C9D6-4961-90F1-26BE2B297170@gmail.com>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
 <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>
 <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>
 <94B507A7-C9D6-4961-90F1-26BE2B297170@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003501d582a5$3b0362b0$b10a2810$@net>

I use the same technique as BR with a couple of diffs. I originally went down by 1's like BR but changed it for increased performance. I set the textsize to a large number(I like BR's initial size option) I then go down by 8s, add 7, down by 4s, add 3, down by 2s, add 1 finally down by ones until it fits. Each of the 4 loops has a check for min size so it down not go down below 2. I guess 2 is too low but it's been working.
I also have an option to fit either by height or width. 

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net




From brahma at hindu.org  Mon Oct 14 15:21:28 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:21:28 +0000
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <003501d582a5$3b0362b0$b10a2810$@net>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
 <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>
 <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>
 <94B507A7-C9D6-4961-90F1-26BE2B297170@gmail.com>
 <003501d582a5$3b0362b0$b10a2810$@net>
Message-ID: <99A8FB6F-704E-4AE9-8325-8E2530130487@hindu.org>

Dan: Thanks for the handler!

Ralph: Actually that last solution offered was fromr Dan Friedman not mine. 
Can you put your two handlers on the list?  " I also have an option to fit either by height or width." 

Doc Hawk:  I give in ?, " Font scaling itself is nonlinear enough, but the way margins scale with font size is downright psychotic?" that's two unknowns in the equation. So iterationis required


============
Ralph wrote
I use the same technique as BR with a couple of diffs. I originally went down by 1's like BR but changed it for increased performance. I set the textsize to a large number(I like BR's initial size option) I then go down by 8s, add 7, down by 4s, add 3, down by 2s, add 1 finally down by ones until it fits. Each of the 4 loops has a check for min size so it down not go down below 2. I guess 2 is too low but it's been working.
I also have an option to fit either by height or width.?



From brahma at hindu.org  Mon Oct 14 15:24:02 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:24:02 +0000
Subject: id3lib from Mark Smith -> id3_getPictureData
In-Reply-To: <9D2DB776-52AD-43B1-85EC-F95B80854271@m-r-d.de>
References: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>
 <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>
 <39A0B54B-2A0D-45F8-A841-B74524D8C33C@major-k.de>
 <9D2DB776-52AD-43B1-85EC-F95B80854271@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <0060F2B1-E895-4F2C-B822-E0A99BB589E1@hindu.org>

I could use 1.02

BR

In case you need 1.02, just let me know.

Matthias Rebbe

From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Mon Oct 14 15:27:22 2019
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 21:27:22 +0200
Subject: id3lib from Mark Smith -> id3_getPictureData
In-Reply-To: <0060F2B1-E895-4F2C-B822-E0A99BB589E1@hindu.org>
References: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>
 <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>
 <39A0B54B-2A0D-45F8-A841-B74524D8C33C@major-k.de>
 <9D2DB776-52AD-43B1-85EC-F95B80854271@m-r-d.de>
 <0060F2B1-E895-4F2C-B822-E0A99BB589E1@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <AC58F0A1-63B0-4CC0-8B6F-151321BB088C@m-r-d.de>

Hi,

https://dl.qck.nu/?dl=id3LibV1.0.2.zip <https://dl.qck.nu/?dl=id3LibV1.0.2.zip>

Regards,

Matthias

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

> Am 14.10.2019 um 21:24 schrieb Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> I could use 1.02
> 
> BR
> 
> In case you need 1.02, just let me know.
> 
> Matthias Rebbe
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From brahma at hindu.org  Mon Oct 14 15:32:36 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:32:36 +0000
Subject: id3lib from Mark Smith -> id3_getPictureData
In-Reply-To: <AC58F0A1-63B0-4CC0-8B6F-151321BB088C@m-r-d.de>
References: <C6A966B0-8C06-4EBF-B147-45859F5CB88A@major-k.de>
 <0033B63D-70BC-4DA9-B334-681989BE816E@m-r-d.de>
 <39A0B54B-2A0D-45F8-A841-B74524D8C33C@major-k.de>
 <9D2DB776-52AD-43B1-85EC-F95B80854271@m-r-d.de>
 <0060F2B1-E895-4F2C-B822-E0A99BB589E1@hindu.org>
 <AC58F0A1-63B0-4CC0-8B6F-151321BB088C@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <DF26CD27-34AF-4B85-8540-3571CAADE052@hindu.org>

Great thanks

It also works as on a livecode web server.


Hi,

https://dl.qck.nu/?dl=id3LibV1.0.2.zip <https://dl.qck.nu/?dl=id3LibV1.0.2.zip>

Regards,

Matthias





From dsc at swcp.com  Mon Oct 14 15:57:27 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 13:57:27 -0600
Subject: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit
Message-ID: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>

Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not related to 32-bit. 

Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. AdaFruit has a fix.

There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.

I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax. 

Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for gadget folks like me. 

Dar Scott
Mad Scientist






From e.beugelaar at me.com  Mon Oct 14 16:10:03 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 22:10:03 +0200
Subject: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit
In-Reply-To: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>
References: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>

That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade. 
With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which were not supported by Apple anymore.
 
?On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not related to 32-bit. 
    
    Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. AdaFruit has a fix.
    
    There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.
    
    I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax. 
    
    Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for gadget folks like me. 
    
    Dar Scott
    Mad Scientist
    
    
    
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From jjs at krutt.org  Mon Oct 14 16:48:20 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 22:48:20 +0200
Subject: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit
In-Reply-To: <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>
References: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>
 <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>
Message-ID: <0ecd5f13-4c92-3707-ac06-d2c02f4cdaf4@krutt.org>

clover is the bootloader.

You still need the kexts (but you know, else you would not use it)

Op 14-10-2019 om 22:10 schreef Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode:
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade.
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which were not supported by Apple anymore.
>   
> ?On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>      Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not related to 32-bit.
>      
>      Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. AdaFruit has a fix.
>      
>      There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.
>      
>      I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax.
>      
>      Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for gadget folks like me.
>      
>      Dar Scott
>      Mad Scientist
>      
>      
>      
>      
>      _______________________________________________
>      use-livecode mailing list
>      use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>      Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>      http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>      
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From e.beugelaar at me.com  Mon Oct 14 16:50:17 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 22:50:17 +0200
Subject: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit
In-Reply-To: <0ecd5f13-4c92-3707-ac06-d2c02f4cdaf4@krutt.org>
References: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>
 <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>
 <0ecd5f13-4c92-3707-ac06-d2c02f4cdaf4@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <08DE50D2-2BE4-4715-91A9-4C58B4147702@me.com>

Exactly, patching does the magic __

?On 14/10/2019, 22:49, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    clover is the bootloader.
    
    You still need the kexts (but you know, else you would not use it)
    
    Op 14-10-2019 om 22:10 schreef Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode:
    > That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade.
    > With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which were not supported by Apple anymore.
    >   
    > ?On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    >
    >      Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not related to 32-bit.
    >      
    >      Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. AdaFruit has a fix.
    >      
    >      There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.
    >      
    >      I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax.
    >      
    >      Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for gadget folks like me.
    >      
    >      Dar Scott
    >      Mad Scientist
    >      
    >      
    >      
    >      
    >      _______________________________________________
    >      use-livecode mailing list
    >      use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    >      Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    >      http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    >      
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Tue Oct 15 10:16:57 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:16:57 -0400
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <99A8FB6F-704E-4AE9-8325-8E2530130487@hindu.org>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
 <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>
 <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>
 <94B507A7-C9D6-4961-90F1-26BE2B297170@gmail.com>
 <003501d582a5$3b0362b0$b10a2810$@net>
 <99A8FB6F-704E-4AE9-8325-8E2530130487@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <004701d58363$381d6870$a8583950$@net>

Will share handler later today. I am in the middle of a pressing project.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
Phone: 518-636-3998 Ex:11
Cell: 518-796-9332

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 3:21 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
Subject: Re: Set font dynamically to fit text

Dan: Thanks for the handler!

Ralph: Actually that last solution offered was fromr Dan Friedman not mine. 
Can you put your two handlers on the list?  " I also have an option to fit either by height or width." 

Doc Hawk:  I give in ?, " Font scaling itself is nonlinear enough, but the way margins scale with font size is downright psychotic " that's two unknowns in the equation. So iterationis required


============
Ralph wrote
I use the same technique as BR with a couple of diffs. I originally went down by 1's like BR but changed it for increased performance. I set the textsize to a large number(I like BR's initial size option) I then go down by 8s, add 7, down by 4s, add 3, down by 2s, add 1 finally down by ones until it fits. Each of the 4 loops has a check for min size so it down not go down below 2. I guess 2 is too low but it's been working.
I also have an option to fit either by height or width. 


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use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 15 10:45:27 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:45:27 +0000
Subject: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit
In-Reply-To: <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>
References: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>
 <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>
Message-ID: <B040C3EA-1E69-4E79-9128-07837DBF9DAA@iotecdigital.com>

I need to look into this again. I made one Hackintosh with an eye to play video games but could never get the graphics card to work. That was a long time ago. If you have any links for making this happen I would be very interested. Thanks. 

Bob S


> On Oct 14, 2019, at 13:10 , Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade. 
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which were not supported by Apple anymore.




From jjs at krutt.org  Tue Oct 15 11:26:45 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:26:45 +0200
Subject: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit
In-Reply-To: <B040C3EA-1E69-4E79-9128-07837DBF9DAA@iotecdigital.com>
References: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>
 <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>
 <B040C3EA-1E69-4E79-9128-07837DBF9DAA@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <80401057-E84F-497C-BE82-645C12BCB2AF@krutt.org>

Tonymacx86.com

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 15 oktober 2019 16:45:27 CEST:
>I need to look into this again. I made one Hackintosh with an eye to
>play video games but could never get the graphics card to work. That
>was a long time ago. If you have any links for making this happen I
>would be very interested. Thanks. 
>
>Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 14, 2019, at 13:10 , Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode
><use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh
>systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy
>to upgrade. 
>> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use
>hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound
>cards etc.) which were not supported by Apple anymore.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From roger.e.eller at sealedair.com  Wed Oct 16 08:19:59 2019
From: roger.e.eller at sealedair.com (Eller, Roger)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:19:59 +0000
Subject: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit
In-Reply-To: <B040C3EA-1E69-4E79-9128-07837DBF9DAA@iotecdigital.com>
References: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>
 <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>,
 <B040C3EA-1E69-4E79-9128-07837DBF9DAA@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <BN8PR14MB320102D19824A46F2F62850AAF920@BN8PR14MB3201.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Morganaut has the best tutorials out there for a modern MacOS build.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg5TS2EmMutPd7Y1zqfQ3iA


~Roger





________________________________
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:45 AM
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com>
Subject: Re: Catalina and stuff other than 32bit

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


I need to look into this again. I made one Hackintosh with an eye to play video games but could never get the graphics card to work. That was a long time ago. If you have any links for making this happen I would be very interested. Thanks.

Bob S


> On Oct 14, 2019, at 13:10 , Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade.
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which were not supported by Apple anymore.


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&amp;data=02%7C01%7Croger.e.eller%40sealedair.com%7C661d2fed28a145cc431008d7517e724b%7C2691a2514c384643af0b0c0982f197bd%7C0%7C0%7C637067475833169150&amp;sdata=E9p3IYKxS67%2BSVjyAv%2B5TDkJ6mcRnkpjVE5s08aFzoo%3D&amp;reserved=0


From dsc at swcp.com  Wed Oct 16 12:34:15 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:34:15 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Catalina_and_stuff_other_than_32bit=E2=80=94USB_b?=
 =?utf-8?Q?roken?=
In-Reply-To: <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>
References: <15C2B3B6-621F-483F-BEEA-B7575906391B@swcp.com>
 <3678CE5D-0D03-478D-A06B-592FFC14CC65@me.com>
Message-ID: <FE057470-0D50-4BF7-BAD0-98C432783DCE@swcp.com>

I'm not sure how this addresses my concern. Uh, rant. Lament. 

If this is an OS problem, then a Hackintosh system would not solve it.
If this is a driver problem, then perhaps Clover will work, but maybe not.
(When I build a machine, I would use Windows or Linux, so?for me?Hackintosh is not a solution.)

I like working with USB gadgets on the Mac, but if "Works with Catalina" has to become a de facto standard for USB, then Apple is going to lose a market. A virtual Windows machine is of no help here. 

Oh, and I said AdaFruit has a fix for Feather boards. It doesn't work for me. 

This also means my advice to use virtual machines for Windows is flawed.

Maybe this is Apple's way of saying I should get a new Mac, but I hear even some new Macs have the problem.

> On Oct 14, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> That is why I rely for the last 10 years on myself built Hackintosh systems. They run faster for less money and they are modular and easy to upgrade. 
> With the introduction of Clover it has never been a problem to use hardware components (especially graphic cards, wifi/bt cards, sound cards etc.) which were not supported by Apple anymore.
> 
> ?On 14/10/2019, 21:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>    Catalina does not recognize the bootloader for atmega32u4 Arduino boards such as Leonardo. The IDE 1.8.10 avr toolchain works (64-bit); this is not related to 32-bit. 
> 
>    Catalina does not recognize the AdaFruit Feather ...BOOT drives. Actually this started with macOS 10.14.4. According to Dan Halbert, "Apple changed how USB devices are recognized on certain Macs", creating a timing problem. AdaFruit has a fix.
> 
>    There are some indications that some USB devices made with Jan Atkinson's examples are having problems on Catalina on some hardware.
> 
>    I don't know if Apple is stepping outside USB specs or is pushing the specs. Or whether the small board community has been spec-lax. 
> 
>    Not directly LiveCode related, but more reason to hesitate, especially for gadget folks like me. 
> 
>    Dar Scott
>    Mad Scientist
> 
> 
> 
> 
>    _______________________________________________
>    use-livecode mailing list
>    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From hh at hyperhh.de  Wed Oct 16 16:31:05 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 22:31:05 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Re=3A_Catalina_and_stuff_other_than_32bit?=
 =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=94USB_broken?=
Message-ID: <48413A4F-3097-4902-8C5D-9D67DC576474@hyperhh.de>

@Dar.
Did you already try to use QUEMU?
https://www.qemu.org





From dsc at swcp.com  Wed Oct 16 18:16:22 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 16:16:22 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Catalina_and_stuff_other_than_32bit=E2=80=94USB_b?=
 =?utf-8?Q?roken?=
In-Reply-To: <48413A4F-3097-4902-8C5D-9D67DC576474@hyperhh.de>
References: <48413A4F-3097-4902-8C5D-9D67DC576474@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <04D7F09E-E8DE-4A9B-B6CA-254581E57ED6@swcp.com>

No, I haven't tried QUEMU.

However, I downloaded a new xCode and, when I ran it the first time, my little board started working and showed up as a virtual serial port and as a disk drive. 

The good news is that it works. Perhaps xCode swapped out something, maybe drivers.

The bad news is that I have no idea whether something that runs on my machine will run on another without xCode installed.

Dar
Mad Scientist
Sad Scientist


> On Oct 16, 2019, at 2:31 PM, hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> @Dar.
> Did you already try to use QUEMU?
> https://www.qemu.org
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Oct 16 18:18:55 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 18:18:55 -0400
Subject: Set font dynamically to fit text
In-Reply-To: <99A8FB6F-704E-4AE9-8325-8E2530130487@hindu.org>
References: <BYAPR14MB2550984877C9219768C3DDFCC5910@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <0c180bed-ab85-6603-df5a-4bf9850d8cac@researchware.com>
 <542C9C68-5D2A-4301-86E1-0D22D4D6E436@hindu.org>
 <5317cd3e-e708-4939-88ff-47a18df3e313@Spark>
 <94B507A7-C9D6-4961-90F1-26BE2B297170@gmail.com>
 <003501d582a5$3b0362b0$b10a2810$@net>
 <99A8FB6F-704E-4AE9-8325-8E2530130487@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <007901d5846f$b6697ae0$233c70a0$@net>

This is how I fit text into fields and buttons. This the first LC code I wrote back in LC 4.6. I did not follow best practices back then. After looking at it again I see that I optimized it so you don't have to set the textsize to some huge number.

https://tinyurl.com/y2jtt877

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 3:21 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
Subject: Re: Set font dynamically to fit text

Dan: Thanks for the handler!

Ralph: Actually that last solution offered was fromr Dan Friedman not mine. 
Can you put your two handlers on the list?  " I also have an option to fit either by height or width." 

Doc Hawk:  I give in ?, " Font scaling itself is nonlinear enough, but the way margins scale with font size is downright psychotic " that's two unknowns in the equation. So iterationis required


============
Ralph wrote
I use the same technique as BR with a couple of diffs. I originally went down by 1's like BR but changed it for increased performance. I set the textsize to a large number(I like BR's initial size option) I then go down by 8s, add 7, down by 4s, add 3, down by 2s, add 1 finally down by ones until it fits. Each of the 4 loops has a check for min size so it down not go down below 2. I guess 2 is too low but it's been working.
I also have an option to fit either by height or width. 


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Wed Oct 16 18:26:14 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 18:26:14 -0400
Subject: LC Server Session Cookies
In-Reply-To: <48413A4F-3097-4902-8C5D-9D67DC576474@hyperhh.de>
References: <48413A4F-3097-4902-8C5D-9D67DC576474@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <007a01d58470$bb574540$3205cfc0$@net>

I started getting this warning in Chrome yesterday. It pops up when I start
an LC Server session. I don't see a way to set this attribute when creating
the session. I also don't see a way to set the attribute when creating a
cookie with "put cookie". Does this require a change to LC Server or am I
missing something?

A cookie associated with a cross-site resource at http://xxxxx.on-rev.com/
was set without the `SameSite` attribute. A future release of Chrome will
only deliver cookies with cross-site requests if they are set with
`SameSite=None` and `Secure`. You can review cookies in developer tools
under Application>Storage>Cookies and see more details at
https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/5088147346030592 and
https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/5633521622188032.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net




From bvlahos at mac.com  Wed Oct 16 20:23:02 2019
From: bvlahos at mac.com (Bill Vlahos)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:23:02 -0700
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as hrs:min:seconds?
Message-ID: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>

I?m writing a countdown timer application and want to display the remaining time not as the number of seconds but in the format of HR:MIN:SEC left.

For example 75 seconds would display as ?0:1:15?.
130 seconds would display as ?0:2:10?.

I know how to do the math to figure it out but I?m wondering if there is a built in function to do this.

Convert wants to deal with actual time so I would get something like ?0:1:15 PM?.

Thanks,
Bill Vlahos


From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au  Wed Oct 16 20:41:24 2019
From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 00:41:24 +0000
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>

Not built-in but...

function formatRemainingTime pTime
   put trunc(pTime/3600) into tHours
   put pTime mod 3600 into tTimeX
   put trunc(tTimeX/60) into tMins
   put tTimeX mod 60 into tSecs
   if tHours < 10 then put "0" before tHours
   if tMins < 10 then put "0" before tMins
   if tSecs < 10 then put "0" before tSecs
   return tHours&":"&tMins&":"&tSecs
end formatRemainingTime

?On 17/10/19, 11:24 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Bill Vlahos via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    I?m writing a countdown timer application and want to display the remaining time not as the number of seconds but in the format of HR:MIN:SEC left.
    
    For example 75 seconds would display as ?0:1:15?.
    130 seconds would display as ?0:2:10?.
    
    I know how to do the math to figure it out but I?m wondering if there is a built in function to do this.
    
    Convert wants to deal with actual time so I would get something like ?0:1:15 PM?.
    
    Thanks,
    Bill Vlahos
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    
    


From dsc at swcp.com  Wed Oct 16 21:53:11 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:53:11 -0600
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <0D675F16-061B-4C8C-A15E-B29D650C301A@swcp.com>

Perhaps the dateItems format would get you part of the way there. 

It seems like I have reinvented this in the past several times.

> On Oct 16, 2019, at 6:41 PM, Terry Judd via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Not built-in but...
> 
> function formatRemainingTime pTime
>   put trunc(pTime/3600) into tHours
>   put pTime mod 3600 into tTimeX
>   put trunc(tTimeX/60) into tMins
>   put tTimeX mod 60 into tSecs
>   if tHours < 10 then put "0" before tHours
>   if tMins < 10 then put "0" before tMins
>   if tSecs < 10 then put "0" before tSecs
>   return tHours&":"&tMins&":"&tSecs
> end formatRemainingTime
> 
> ?On 17/10/19, 11:24 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Bill Vlahos via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>    I?m writing a countdown timer application and want to display the remaining time not as the number of seconds but in the format of HR:MIN:SEC left.
> 
>    For example 75 seconds would display as ?0:1:15?.
>    130 seconds would display as ?0:2:10?.
> 
>    I know how to do the math to figure it out but I?m wondering if there is a built in function to do this.
> 
>    Convert wants to deal with actual time so I would get something like ?0:1:15 PM?.
> 
>    Thanks,
>    Bill Vlahos
>    _______________________________________________
>    use-livecode mailing list
>    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From hh at hyperhh.de  Wed Oct 16 22:30:22 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 04:30:22 +0200
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
Message-ID: <41C23C91-9A0F-4A19-A59B-496260E21D35@hyperhh.de>

> Bill V. wrote:
> I know how to do the math to figure it out but I?m wondering if there
> is a built in function to do this. Convert wants to deal with actual time
> so I would get something like ?0:1:15 PM?. 

That needs the same energy as the simple math method but as you ask:

1. set the twelvehourtime to false
2. compute what you get when converting t=0 to long time (=diff)
3. subtract diff from your start time
4. repeat converting your seconds value to long time




From merakosp at gmail.com  Thu Oct 17 03:29:47 2019
From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 10:29:47 +0300
Subject: LC Server Session Cookies
In-Reply-To: <007a01d58470$bb574540$3205cfc0$@net>
References: <48413A4F-3097-4902-8C5D-9D67DC576474@hyperhh.de>
 <007a01d58470$bb574540$3205cfc0$@net>
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq_HOpju+owDab=8nkszP=fbdAybyyT=4BM2TW0P_qzP4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ralph,

Does it work if you append this attribute to the "cookieValue" param?
Something like:

put secure cookie "testcookie4" for "/products/" on "www.livecode.com" with
"some_cookie_value; SameSite=None" until (the seconds + 60 * 60 * 24 * 365)

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 01:25, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I started getting this warning in Chrome yesterday. It pops up when I start
> an LC Server session. I don't see a way to set this attribute when creating
> the session. I also don't see a way to set the attribute when creating a
> cookie with "put cookie". Does this require a change to LC Server or am I
> missing something?
>
> A cookie associated with a cross-site resource at http://xxxxx.on-rev.com/
> was set without the `SameSite` attribute. A future release of Chrome will
> only deliver cookies with cross-site requests if they are set with
> `SameSite=None` and `Secure`. You can review cookies in developer tools
> under Application>Storage>Cookies and see more details at
> https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/5088147346030592 and
> https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/5633521622188032.
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From klaus at major-k.de  Thu Oct 17 05:50:33 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:50:33 +0200
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>

Hi all,

> Am 17.10.2019 um 02:41 schrieb Terry Judd via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Not built-in but...
> 
> function formatRemainingTime pTime
>   put trunc(pTime/3600) into tHours
>   put pTime mod 3600 into tTimeX
>   put trunc(tTimeX/60) into tMins
>   put tTimeX mod 60 into tSecs
>   if tHours < 10 then put "0" before tHours
>   if tMins < 10 then put "0" before tMins
>   if tSecs < 10 then put "0" before tSecs
>   return tHours&":"&tMins&":"&tSecs
> end formatRemainingTime

save some lines by setting the numberformat first (lazy moi :-)

function formatRemainingTime pTime
   set the numberformat to "xx"
   put trunc(pTime/3600) into tHours
   put pTime mod 3600 into tTimeX
   put trunc(tTimeX/60) into tMins
   put tTimeX mod 60 into tSecs
   return tHours&":"&tMins&":"&tSecs
end formatRemainingTime


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From mark at livecode.com  Thu Oct 17 06:21:32 2019
From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:21:32 +0100
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>

On 2019-10-17 10:50, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
> save some lines by setting the numberformat first (lazy moi :-)
> 
> ...
> 

Save even more lines by using format, div and mod...

function formatRemainingTime pSeconds
   return format("%02d:%02d:%02d", pSeconds div 3600, (pSeconds mod 3600) 
div 60, pSeconds mod 60)
end formatRemainingTime

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

-- 
Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps



From klaus at major-k.de  Thu Oct 17 06:23:07 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 12:23:07 +0200
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
 <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <B1C8D394-A7C9-4646-A25E-FDF60A95C1E1@major-k.de>

Hi Mark,

> Am 17.10.2019 um 12:21 schrieb Mark Waddingham via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> On 2019-10-17 10:50, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
>> save some lines by setting the numberformat first (lazy moi :-)
>> ...
> Save even more lines by using format, div and mod...
> 
> function formatRemainingTime pSeconds
>  return format("%02d:%02d:%02d", pSeconds div 3600, (pSeconds mod 3600) div 60, pSeconds mod 60)
> end formatRemainingTime

Sheeeeeesh... :-D

> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From hh at hyperhh.de  Thu Oct 17 06:32:59 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 12:32:59 +0200
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as 
 hrs:min:seconds?
Message-ID: <2F49E88E-705B-493C-987B-A5278592E749@hyperhh.de>

Save a lot of lines by using "format":

on countdown t
  put format("%02d:%02d:%02d",t div 3600,(t mod 3600) div 60,t mod 60) into fld 1
  subtract 1 from t
  if t < 0 then exit countDown
  send "countdown t" to me in (1000-the millisecs mod 1000) millisecs
end countdown

> > Terry J. wrote:
> > Not built-in but...
> > 
> > function formatRemainingTime pTime
> >   put trunc(pTime/3600) into tHours
> >   put pTime mod 3600 into tTimeX
> >   put trunc(tTimeX/60) into tMins
> >   put tTimeX mod 60 into tSecs
> >   if tHours < 10 then put "0" before tHours
> >   if tMins < 10 then put "0" before tMins
> >   if tSecs < 10 then put "0" before tSecs
> >   return tHours&":"&tMins&":"&tSecs
> > end formatRemainingTime
> 
> Klaus M. wrote:
> save some lines by setting the numberformat first (lazy moi :-)
> 
> function formatRemainingTime pTime
>    set the numberformat to "xx"
>    put trunc(pTime/3600) into tHours
>    put pTime mod 3600 into tTimeX
>    put trunc(tTimeX/60) into tMins
>    put tTimeX mod 60 into tSecs
>    return tHours&":"&tMins&":"&tSecs
> end formatRemainingTime





From tfabacher at gmail.com  Thu Oct 17 07:56:40 2019
From: tfabacher at gmail.com (Todd Fabacher)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 07:56:40 -0400
Subject: LiveCode Server
Message-ID: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

We are running LC Server Scripts to process some DB request and we
want to do basic validation by passing a token from the App to the
server script.

The problem is I can not find where I can get the headers on the
server. I looked in $_SERVER, but not there. I see the CONTENT_TYPE
and HTTP ACCEPTS which I set in my header, but I can's find anything
else from the header that was posted.

Does anyone know how to read an "Authorization: Bearer" header in
LiveCode Script on the server?? Thanks for the help.

--Todd Fabacher



From rabit at revigniter.com  Thu Oct 17 09:18:33 2019
From: rabit at revigniter.com (Ralf Bitter)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:18:33 +0200
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <742FF112-735B-4778-AAC1-1E8FF25293C8@revigniter.com>

Todd, sending Authorization HTTP request headers
to LC server on Linux should work. I have
troubles with request headers too, but only on Mac OS.


Ralf



> On 17. Oct 2019, at 13:56, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> We are running LC Server Scripts to process some DB request and we
> want to do basic validation by passing a token from the App to the
> server script.
> 
> The problem is I can not find where I can get the headers on the
> server. I looked in $_SERVER, but not there. I see the CONTENT_TYPE
> and HTTP ACCEPTS which I set in my header, but I can's find anything
> else from the header that was posted.
> 
> Does anyone know how to read an "Authorization: Bearer" header in
> LiveCode Script on the server?? Thanks for the help.
> 
> --Todd Fabacher




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Thu Oct 17 09:51:22 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 09:51:22 -0400
Subject: LC Server Session Cookies
In-Reply-To: <CA+JfEq_HOpju+owDab=8nkszP=fbdAybyyT=4BM2TW0P_qzP4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48413A4F-3097-4902-8C5D-9D67DC576474@hyperhh.de>
 <007a01d58470$bb574540$3205cfc0$@net>
 <CA+JfEq_HOpju+owDab=8nkszP=fbdAybyyT=4BM2TW0P_qzP4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009d01d584f1$f90f4550$eb2dcff0$@net>

Panos,

Thanks!
I will try that for "put secure cookie". The first problem is the a "start
session" creates a cookie on the client and I don't see a way to add the
attributes.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
Phone: 518-636-3998 Ex:11
Cell: 518-796-9332


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of panagiotis merakos via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:30 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: panagiotis merakos
Subject: Re: LC Server Session Cookies

Hello Ralph,

Does it work if you append this attribute to the "cookieValue" param?
Something like:

put secure cookie "testcookie4" for "/products/" on "www.livecode.com" with
"some_cookie_value; SameSite=None" until (the seconds + 60 * 60 * 24 * 365)

Kind regards,
Panos
--

On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 01:25, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I started getting this warning in Chrome yesterday. It pops up when I 
> start an LC Server session. I don't see a way to set this attribute 
> when creating the session. I also don't see a way to set the attribute 
> when creating a cookie with "put cookie". Does this require a change 
> to LC Server or am I missing something?
>
> A cookie associated with a cross-site resource at 
> http://xxxxx.on-rev.com/ was set without the `SameSite` attribute. A 
> future release of Chrome will only deliver cookies with cross-site 
> requests if they are set with `SameSite=None` and `Secure`. You can 
> review cookies in developer tools under Application>Storage>Cookies 
> and see more details at
> https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/5088147346030592 and 
> https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/5633521622188032.
>
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 17 09:51:32 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 14:51:32 +0100
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <742FF112-735B-4778-AAC1-1E8FF25293C8@revigniter.com>
References: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <742FF112-735B-4778-AAC1-1E8FF25293C8@revigniter.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VBUU2Y0sdg=tmw7Nb_bK7_=TG2KhEuAtwtaGp6k6mAPRg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ralf,

The problem isn't the sending of the headers but reading them using
livecode server.
We are using Linux servers so the Mac problem is not an issue.

Via PHP the call is get_headers ( string $url [, int $format = 0 [,
resource $context ]] ) : array

Basically is there a way of doing that in pure livecode server?

Regards Lagi (and Todd)

On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 14:18, Ralf Bitter via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Todd, sending Authorization HTTP request headers
> to LC server on Linux should work. I have
> troubles with request headers too, but only on Mac OS.
>
>
> Ralf
>
>
>
> > On 17. Oct 2019, at 13:56, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > We are running LC Server Scripts to process some DB request and we
> > want to do basic validation by passing a token from the App to the
> > server script.
> >
> > The problem is I can not find where I can get the headers on the
> > server. I looked in $_SERVER, but not there. I see the CONTENT_TYPE
> > and HTTP ACCEPTS which I set in my header, but I can's find anything
> > else from the header that was posted.
> >
> > Does anyone know how to read an "Authorization: Bearer" header in
> > LiveCode Script on the server?? Thanks for the help.
> >
> > --Todd Fabacher
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From rabit at revigniter.com  Thu Oct 17 10:13:43 2019
From: rabit at revigniter.com (Ralf Bitter)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:13:43 +0200
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VBUU2Y0sdg=tmw7Nb_bK7_=TG2KhEuAtwtaGp6k6mAPRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <742FF112-735B-4778-AAC1-1E8FF25293C8@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VBUU2Y0sdg=tmw7Nb_bK7_=TG2KhEuAtwtaGp6k6mAPRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EF33B2B0-A7DE-4ECB-A7E9-C44224F4959C@revigniter.com>

Lagi, sorry for not expressing myself well. Of course I
meant the whole process including reading HTTP
headers on the server.
This means $_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"]
should not be empty in your case


Ralf



> On 17. Oct 2019, at 15:51, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Ralf,
> 
> The problem isn't the sending of the headers but reading them using
> livecode server.
> We are using Linux servers so the Mac problem is not an issue.
> 
> Via PHP the call is get_headers ( string $url [, int $format = 0 [,
> resource $context ]] ) : array
> 
> Basically is there a way of doing that in pure livecode server?
> 
> Regards Lagi (and Todd)
> 
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 14:18, Ralf Bitter via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Todd, sending Authorization HTTP request headers
>> to LC server on Linux should work. I have
>> troubles with request headers too, but only on Mac OS.
>> 
>> 
>> Ralf
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 17. Oct 2019, at 13:56, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello all,
>>> 
>>> We are running LC Server Scripts to process some DB request and we
>>> want to do basic validation by passing a token from the App to the
>>> server script.
>>> 
>>> The problem is I can not find where I can get the headers on the
>>> server. I looked in $_SERVER, but not there. I see the CONTENT_TYPE
>>> and HTTP ACCEPTS which I set in my header, but I can's find anything
>>> else from the header that was posted.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know how to read an "Authorization: Bearer" header in
>>> LiveCode Script on the server?? Thanks for the help.
>>> 
>>> --Todd Fabacher




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 17 10:47:32 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 14:47:32 +0000
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <F60F47EB-D910-4F3A-A130-0F9C37B6ABDC@iotecdigital.com>

I call it sqltime because it has to be formatted as hh:mm:ss. 

function formatTime theTime, theFormat
   /*
   accepts any valid time and returns the form of the time specified in the second parameter.
   The valid formats are:
   sql time: hh:mm:ss (Note: combining sql date from the formatDate() function with the
   sql time will produce a valid SQL date time type). 
   short time: LC short time format
   abbreviated time: LC abbr time format (same as short time)
   long time: LC long time format
   seconds: the number of seconds since the prior midnight
   military: the military time 00:00 - 23:59
   */
   if theTime is empty then return empty
   
   set the numberformat to "00"
   switch theFormat
      case "sql time"
         convert theTime to dateitems
         put (item 4 of theTime +0) & ":" & \
               (item 5 of theTime +0) & ":" & \
               (item 6 of theTime +0) into theTime
         break
      case "short time"
         convert theTime to short time
         break
      case "abbreviated time"
         convert theTime to abbreviated time
         break
      case "long time"
         convert theTime to long time
         break
      case "seconds"
         convert theTime to seconds
         break
      case "military"
         set the itemdelimiter to ":"
         
         if theTime contains "PM" then
            add 12 to item 1 of theTime
         end if
         
         put word 1 of item 2 of theTime into item 2 of theTime
         break
   end switch
   
   return theTime
end formatTime


> On Oct 16, 2019, at 17:23 , Bill Vlahos via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I?m writing a countdown timer application and want to display the remaining time not as the number of seconds but in the format of HR:MIN:SEC left.
> 
> For example 75 seconds would display as ?0:1:15?.
> 130 seconds would display as ?0:2:10?.
> 
> I know how to do the math to figure it out but I?m wondering if there is a built in function to do this.
> 
> Convert wants to deal with actual time so I would get something like ?0:1:15 PM?.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill Vlahos
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 17 11:24:03 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:24:03 +0100
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <EF33B2B0-A7DE-4ECB-A7E9-C44224F4959C@revigniter.com>
References: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <742FF112-735B-4778-AAC1-1E8FF25293C8@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VBUU2Y0sdg=tmw7Nb_bK7_=TG2KhEuAtwtaGp6k6mAPRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EF33B2B0-A7DE-4ECB-A7E9-C44224F4959C@revigniter.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VBTYHtdgGFfNGMGGNW8Hy1oCOKr48mydWfCkC_23MoB0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everybody


If anybody else (Mark? even) has any insights

We have found this function libURLLastRHheaders, which seems to get the
last headers set to the server.
 In the documentation, it indicates that it works on the Server version.

We put it in the server code, but get the following error which indicates
that the lib is NOT included on the server.

<pre>
file &quot;/var/www/html/xb_admin_accountant_new.lc&quot;
  row 12, col 8: Function: error in function handler (libURLLastRHHeaders)
  row 12, col 8: put: error in expression
</pre>

My question is, does the internet lib work on LC Server so we can call
libURLLastRHHeaders?

If YES, then which files do we add to the server and where. Also, do we
need to add an include line in the script to load the function?


Thanks for your help


Regards Lagi (and Todd)

btw

There is no  $_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"] in the docs the closest is
$_SERVER["HTTP] but since
the code gives an error and the return is empty it's a moot point.




On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 15:13, Ralf Bitter via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Lagi, sorry for not expressing myself well. Of course I
> meant the whole process including reading HTTP
> headers on the server.
> This means $_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"]
> should not be empty in your case
>
>
> Ralf
>
>
>
> > On 17. Oct 2019, at 15:51, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ralf,
> >
> > The problem isn't the sending of the headers but reading them using
> > livecode server.
> > We are using Linux servers so the Mac problem is not an issue.
> >
> > Via PHP the call is get_headers ( string $url [, int $format = 0 [,
> > resource $context ]] ) : array
> >
> > Basically is there a way of doing that in pure livecode server?
> >
> > Regards Lagi (and Todd)
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 14:18, Ralf Bitter via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Todd, sending Authorization HTTP request headers
> >> to LC server on Linux should work. I have
> >> troubles with request headers too, but only on Mac OS.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ralf
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 17. Oct 2019, at 13:56, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello all,
> >>>
> >>> We are running LC Server Scripts to process some DB request and we
> >>> want to do basic validation by passing a token from the App to the
> >>> server script.
> >>>
> >>> The problem is I can not find where I can get the headers on the
> >>> server. I looked in $_SERVER, but not there. I see the CONTENT_TYPE
> >>> and HTTP ACCEPTS which I set in my header, but I can's find anything
> >>> else from the header that was posted.
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone know how to read an "Authorization: Bearer" header in
> >>> LiveCode Script on the server?? Thanks for the help.
> >>>
> >>> --Todd Fabacher
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Oct 17 11:44:18 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 10:44:18 -0500
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
 <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <16dda641c68.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

Show-off. :-)
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 17, 2019 5:22:44 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 2019-10-17 10:50, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
>> save some lines by setting the numberformat first (lazy moi :-)
>>
>> ...
>>
>
> Save even more lines by using format, div and mod...
>
> function formatRemainingTime pSeconds
>   return format("%02d:%02d:%02d", pSeconds div 3600, (pSeconds mod 3600)
> div 60, pSeconds mod 60)
> end formatRemainingTime
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> --
> Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 17 11:51:23 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:51:23 +0000
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <16dda641c68.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
 <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
 <16dda641c68.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <0BB63AF9-E0CB-4F08-929A-7382ADEF7682@iotecdigital.com>

The problem with one-liners is that the genius is implicit, not explicit. ;-)

Bob S


> On Oct 17, 2019, at 08:44 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Show-off. :-)
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com




From admin at FlexibleLearning.com  Thu Oct 17 12:27:46 2019
From: admin at FlexibleLearning.com (FlexibleLearning.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 17:27:46 +0100
Subject: Merge PDF
Message-ID: <000401d58507$d05b5750$711205f0$@FlexibleLearning.com>

Has anyone got an LC-based method to merge pdf files?

Just asking...

Hugh Senior




From rabit at revigniter.com  Thu Oct 17 12:55:10 2019
From: rabit at revigniter.com (Ralf Bitter)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:55:10 +0200
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VBTYHtdgGFfNGMGGNW8Hy1oCOKr48mydWfCkC_23MoB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <742FF112-735B-4778-AAC1-1E8FF25293C8@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VBUU2Y0sdg=tmw7Nb_bK7_=TG2KhEuAtwtaGp6k6mAPRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EF33B2B0-A7DE-4ECB-A7E9-C44224F4959C@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VBTYHtdgGFfNGMGGNW8Hy1oCOKr48mydWfCkC_23MoB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B02105CC-71F5-43E8-B594-D7C8C70C5681@revigniter.com>



> On 17. Oct 2019, at 17:24, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> There is no  $_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"] in the docs the closest is
> $_SERVER["HTTP] but since
> the code gives an error and the return is empty it's a moot point.


Lagi, the original question was:

> how to read an "Authorization: Bearer" header in
> LiveCode Script on the server??


because

> we want to do basic validation by passing a token from
> the App to the server script.


Please correct me if I am on the wrong track, but to my
understanding the issue is related to reading
the Authorization request header sent by an app to
the server. In this case there is a server variable
$_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"] which can be read
by LC server. Of course there is no  $_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"]
in the docs.


Ralf

From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 17 13:27:44 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:27:44 +0100
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <B02105CC-71F5-43E8-B594-D7C8C70C5681@revigniter.com>
References: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <742FF112-735B-4778-AAC1-1E8FF25293C8@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VBUU2Y0sdg=tmw7Nb_bK7_=TG2KhEuAtwtaGp6k6mAPRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EF33B2B0-A7DE-4ECB-A7E9-C44224F4959C@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VBTYHtdgGFfNGMGGNW8Hy1oCOKr48mydWfCkC_23MoB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <B02105CC-71F5-43E8-B594-D7C8C70C5681@revigniter.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VDdAMEYvN_F3xowOHpYG7+D0U=jWy_Dnni_O_-JPYvEYQ@mail.gmail.com>

HI Ralph

Basically the server script does this

put arrayEncode($_SERVER) and sends back everything within the $_SERVER
variable
we then decode it in the App ....

It gives us everything shown in the documentation but not the header info


   - GATEWAY_INTERFACE
   - SERVER_ADDR
   - SERVER_NAME
   - SERVER_SOFTWARE
   - <SNIP>
   - SCRIPT_NAME
   - SCRIPT_FILENAME
   - CONTENT_TYPE
   - CONTENT_LENGTH

But not the headers

Hope that helps

Lagi



On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 17:55, Ralf Bitter via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On 17. Oct 2019, at 17:24, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > There is no  $_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"] in the docs the closest is
> > $_SERVER["HTTP] but since
> > the code gives an error and the return is empty it's a moot point.
>
>
> Lagi, the original question was:
>
> > how to read an "Authorization: Bearer" header in
> > LiveCode Script on the server??
>
>
> because
>
> > we want to do basic validation by passing a token from
> > the App to the server script.
>
>
> Please correct me if I am on the wrong track, but to my
> understanding the issue is related to reading
> the Authorization request header sent by an app to
> the server. In this case there is a server variable
> $_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"] which can be read
> by LC server. Of course there is no  $_SERVER["HTTP_Authorization"]
> in the docs.
>
>
> Ralf
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From dochawk at gmail.com  Thu Oct 17 14:13:59 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:13:59 -0700
Subject: Merge PDF
In-Reply-To: <000401d58507$d05b5750$711205f0$@FlexibleLearning.com>
References: <000401d58507$d05b5750$711205f0$@FlexibleLearning.com>
Message-ID: <4F1F79E2-DB13-4B53-A7DE-C95C945F47CB@gmail.com>


On Oct 17, 2019, at 9:27 AM, FlexibleLearning.com via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone got an LC-based method to merge pdf files?


LC business can?t even output a pdf widget save as low density raster at the moment.

I?m currently working on an interim solution that creates a PyPdf2 script, after which I may translate parts of that into livecode.

The process is ultimately pretty simple, but will involve learning more pdf than most people (including me) have any interest in . . . it would be *much* easier (at least for my purposes involving cropped sections of pages) in straight postscript . . .

Also, if you look through the archives for my bug report on the pdf widgets rasterizing output to 72pdf (it may actually be less; they?re *that* blurry), I attached a couple of example files where I force-merged pdf files by hand


From rabit at revigniter.com  Thu Oct 17 14:29:09 2019
From: rabit at revigniter.com (Ralf Bitter)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:29:09 +0200
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VDdAMEYvN_F3xowOHpYG7+D0U=jWy_Dnni_O_-JPYvEYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACjPeOT4jny7Yp7k1PKqcuGP48rntvp+EGrpdfrBJ=xk-iFOXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <742FF112-735B-4778-AAC1-1E8FF25293C8@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VBUU2Y0sdg=tmw7Nb_bK7_=TG2KhEuAtwtaGp6k6mAPRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EF33B2B0-A7DE-4ECB-A7E9-C44224F4959C@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VBTYHtdgGFfNGMGGNW8Hy1oCOKr48mydWfCkC_23MoB0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <B02105CC-71F5-43E8-B594-D7C8C70C5681@revigniter.com>
 <CAG1h1VDdAMEYvN_F3xowOHpYG7+D0U=jWy_Dnni_O_-JPYvEYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A890203E-3F3F-4E50-A3CF-72EBB82DB457@revigniter.com>



> On 17. Oct 2019, at 19:27, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> HI Ralph
> 
> Basically the server script does this
> 
> put arrayEncode($_SERVER) and sends back everything within the $_SERVER
> variable
> we then decode it in the App ....
> 
> It gives us everything shown in the documentation but not the header info
> 
> 
>   - GATEWAY_INTERFACE
>   - SERVER_ADDR
>   - SERVER_NAME
>   - SERVER_SOFTWARE
>   - <SNIP>
>   - SCRIPT_NAME
>   - SCRIPT_FILENAME
>   - CONTENT_TYPE
>   - CONTENT_LENGTH
> 
> But not the headers
> 
> Hope that helps
> 
> Lagi


OK, in case you are interested in all the headers the
server sends in response to a request you might indeed probably
find the answer by checking out the code in revliburl.livecodescript.
But just including the script only stack (using ?start using stack?)
won?t work right away. Seems there are modifications needed
to be able to get a value from libURLLastRHheaders().
Would be glad to be wrong.

Ralf

From hh at hyperhh.de  Thu Oct 17 15:04:00 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 21:04:00 +0200
Subject: Merge PDF
Message-ID: <356AEE1B-BAA9-4162-86F9-C5C4B705BFE7@hyperhh.de>

> Hugh Senior wrote:
> Has anyone got an LC-based method to merge pdf files? Just asking...

I'll publish this weekend on SampleStacks a pdfLib (split and merge)
based on a JS library (via a browser widget). Already 95% are done.



From bvlahos at mac.com  Fri Oct 18 00:25:19 2019
From: bvlahos at mac.com (Bill Vlahos)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 21:25:19 -0700
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <0BB63AF9-E0CB-4F08-929A-7382ADEF7682@iotecdigital.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
 <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
 <16dda641c68.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <0BB63AF9-E0CB-4F08-929A-7382ADEF7682@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <5C1E5342-4063-4F11-B0F0-AAD29D1EA892@mac.com>

All great suggestions.

I mostly wanted to see if there already was such a function - which there obviously isn?t.

But it is great to see several easy ways to built your own.

Thanks all.

Bill Vlahos


> On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> The problem with one-liners is that the genius is implicit, not explicit. ;-)
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 08:44 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Show-off. :-)
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dsc at swcp.com  Fri Oct 18 11:54:21 2019
From: dsc at swcp.com (Dar Scott Consulting)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 09:54:21 -0600
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <5C1E5342-4063-4F11-B0F0-AAD29D1EA892@mac.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
 <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
 <16dda641c68.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <0BB63AF9-E0CB-4F08-929A-7382ADEF7682@iotecdigital.com>
 <5C1E5342-4063-4F11-B0F0-AAD29D1EA892@mac.com>
Message-ID: <8BFE18D9-C4DD-47E3-B4DE-E8BD5E854CEC@swcp.com>

I would +1 a deltaTime format, but we might not agree on hours over 24 and fractions of a second.

> On Oct 17, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Bill Vlahos via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> All great suggestions.
> 
> I mostly wanted to see if there already was such a function - which there obviously isn?t.
> 
> But it is great to see several easy ways to built your own.
> 
> Thanks all.
> 
> Bill Vlahos
> 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> The problem with one-liners is that the genius is implicit, not explicit. ;-)
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 08:44 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Show-off. :-)
>>> --
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Oct 18 14:12:11 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 14:12:11 -0400
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <8BFE18D9-C4DD-47E3-B4DE-E8BD5E854CEC@swcp.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
 <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
 <16dda641c68.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <0BB63AF9-E0CB-4F08-929A-7382ADEF7682@iotecdigital.com>
 <5C1E5342-4063-4F11-B0F0-AAD29D1EA892@mac.com>
 <8BFE18D9-C4DD-47E3-B4DE-E8BD5E854CEC@swcp.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLJdD31ZpyfBQUd32w2MDSw+JeBUXNvMwCW8wSgazsegbA@mail.gmail.com>

Let me throw my hat into the ring here...lol....I wrote this function to
display time in a specific format

function TimeDisplay HowManySeconds
   local final_output = "<d> days <hh>:<mm>:<ss>"

   local running_second_count
   local next_calculation

   set itemdelimiter to "."  -- we are looking at boths sides of the
decimal place

   // 86,400 seconds in an day
   // 3600 in an hour
   // 60 seonds in a minute
   // replace counts as you go

   -- days

   put HowManySeconds / 86400 into next_calculation

   if next_calculation < 1 then
      put HowManySeconds into running_second_count
      replace "<d>" with "0" in final_output
   else
      // how many days?
      replace "<d>" with  item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
      put (HowManySeconds) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 86400) into
running_second_count
   end if

   -- hours

   put running_second_count / 3600 into next_calculation

   if next_calculation < 1 then
      replace "<hh>" with "00" in final_output
   else
      // how many hours?
      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
         replace "<hh>" with "0" & item 1 of next_calculation in
final_output
      else
         replace "<hh>" with item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
      end if

      put (running_second_count) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 3600) into
running_second_count
   end if


   -- minutes

   put running_second_count / 60 into next_calculation

   if next_calculation < 1 then
      replace "<mm>" with "00" in final_output
   else
      // how many minutes?
      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
         replace "<mm>" with "0" & item 1 of next_calculation in
final_output
      else
         replace "<mm>" with item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
      end if

      put (running_second_count) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 60) into
running_second_count

   end if

   -- seconds

   put running_second_count into next_calculation

      if next_calculation < 1 then
      replace "<ss>" with "00" in final_output
   else
      // how many minutes?
      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
         replace "<ss>" with "0" & next_calculation in final_output
      else
         replace "<ss>" with next_calculation in final_output
      end if
   end if

   return final_output
end TimeDisplay

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:55 AM Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I would +1 a deltaTime format, but we might not agree on hours over 24 and
> fractions of a second.
>
> > On Oct 17, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Bill Vlahos via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > All great suggestions.
> >
> > I mostly wanted to see if there already was such a function - which
> there obviously isn?t.
> >
> > But it is great to see several easy ways to built your own.
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Bill Vlahos
> >
> >
> >> On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The problem with one-liners is that the genius is implicit, not
> explicit. ;-)
> >>
> >> Bob S
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 08:44 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Show-off. :-)
> >>> --
> >>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From sundown at pacifier.com  Fri Oct 18 17:20:54 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 14:20:54 -0700
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLJdD31ZpyfBQUd32w2MDSw+JeBUXNvMwCW8wSgazsegbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
 <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
 <16dda641c68.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <0BB63AF9-E0CB-4F08-929A-7382ADEF7682@iotecdigital.com>
 <5C1E5342-4063-4F11-B0F0-AAD29D1EA892@mac.com>
 <8BFE18D9-C4DD-47E3-B4DE-E8BD5E854CEC@swcp.com>
 <CAPzQJLJdD31ZpyfBQUd32w2MDSw+JeBUXNvMwCW8wSgazsegbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A51D5433-AB79-4308-826C-6AFB78CDCDC8@pacifier.com>

Here is a terminal example;

on mouseUp
  put shell( "date" ) into tData
  answer question tData
end mouseUp

JB

> On Oct 18, 2019, at 11:12 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Let me throw my hat into the ring here...lol....I wrote this function to
> display time in a specific format
> 
> function TimeDisplay HowManySeconds
>   local final_output = "<d> days <hh>:<mm>:<ss>"
> 
>   local running_second_count
>   local next_calculation
> 
>   set itemdelimiter to "."  -- we are looking at boths sides of the
> decimal place
> 
>   // 86,400 seconds in an day
>   // 3600 in an hour
>   // 60 seonds in a minute
>   // replace counts as you go
> 
>   -- days
> 
>   put HowManySeconds / 86400 into next_calculation
> 
>   if next_calculation < 1 then
>      put HowManySeconds into running_second_count
>      replace "<d>" with "0" in final_output
>   else
>      // how many days?
>      replace "<d>" with  item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
>      put (HowManySeconds) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 86400) into
> running_second_count
>   end if
> 
>   -- hours
> 
>   put running_second_count / 3600 into next_calculation
> 
>   if next_calculation < 1 then
>      replace "<hh>" with "00" in final_output
>   else
>      // how many hours?
>      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
>         replace "<hh>" with "0" & item 1 of next_calculation in
> final_output
>      else
>         replace "<hh>" with item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
>      end if
> 
>      put (running_second_count) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 3600) into
> running_second_count
>   end if
> 
> 
>   -- minutes
> 
>   put running_second_count / 60 into next_calculation
> 
>   if next_calculation < 1 then
>      replace "<mm>" with "00" in final_output
>   else
>      // how many minutes?
>      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
>         replace "<mm>" with "0" & item 1 of next_calculation in
> final_output
>      else
>         replace "<mm>" with item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
>      end if
> 
>      put (running_second_count) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 60) into
> running_second_count
> 
>   end if
> 
>   -- seconds
> 
>   put running_second_count into next_calculation
> 
>      if next_calculation < 1 then
>      replace "<ss>" with "00" in final_output
>   else
>      // how many minutes?
>      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
>         replace "<ss>" with "0" & next_calculation in final_output
>      else
>         replace "<ss>" with next_calculation in final_output
>      end if
>   end if
> 
>   return final_output
> end TimeDisplay
> 
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:55 AM Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I would +1 a deltaTime format, but we might not agree on hours over 24 and
>> fractions of a second.
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Bill Vlahos via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> All great suggestions.
>>> 
>>> I mostly wanted to see if there already was such a function - which
>> there obviously isn?t.
>>> 
>>> But it is great to see several easy ways to built your own.
>>> 
>>> Thanks all.
>>> 
>>> Bill Vlahos
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The problem with one-liners is that the genius is implicit, not
>> explicit. ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> Bob S
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 08:44 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Show-off. :-)
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From stephen at barncard.com  Fri Oct 18 23:48:37 2019
From: stephen at barncard.com (Stephen Barncard)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 20:48:37 -0700
Subject: Is there a command to display number of seconds as
 hrs:min:seconds?
In-Reply-To: <A51D5433-AB79-4308-826C-6AFB78CDCDC8@pacifier.com>
References: <029D58D9-5CB5-4CD0-94EF-2D14B56F73DF@mac.com>
 <F4F6E41D-B9C8-4159-BED6-8EB5B362638E@unimelb.edu.au>
 <9D5151A4-B6DA-468C-B8F0-2965333788D5@major-k.de>
 <2782c27f459eedd8b49458e99acecbed@livecode.com>
 <16dda641c68.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <0BB63AF9-E0CB-4F08-929A-7382ADEF7682@iotecdigital.com>
 <5C1E5342-4063-4F11-B0F0-AAD29D1EA892@mac.com>
 <8BFE18D9-C4DD-47E3-B4DE-E8BD5E854CEC@swcp.com>
 <CAPzQJLJdD31ZpyfBQUd32w2MDSw+JeBUXNvMwCW8wSgazsegbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A51D5433-AB79-4308-826C-6AFB78CDCDC8@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <CAFmQfHLO3Jh=D-6S6xRHdu9CkrGcfVCU38a7SPatsahySQq=5g@mail.gmail.com>

(Ice cream cone hits forehead)
--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org


On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 2:24 PM JB via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Here is a terminal example;
>
> on mouseUp
>   put shell( "date" ) into tData
>   answer question tData
> end mouseUp
>
> JB
>
> > On Oct 18, 2019, at 11:12 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Let me throw my hat into the ring here...lol....I wrote this function to
> > display time in a specific format
> >
> > function TimeDisplay HowManySeconds
> >   local final_output = "<d> days <hh>:<mm>:<ss>"
> >
> >   local running_second_count
> >   local next_calculation
> >
> >   set itemdelimiter to "."  -- we are looking at boths sides of the
> > decimal place
> >
> >   // 86,400 seconds in an day
> >   // 3600 in an hour
> >   // 60 seonds in a minute
> >   // replace counts as you go
> >
> >   -- days
> >
> >   put HowManySeconds / 86400 into next_calculation
> >
> >   if next_calculation < 1 then
> >      put HowManySeconds into running_second_count
> >      replace "<d>" with "0" in final_output
> >   else
> >      // how many days?
> >      replace "<d>" with  item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
> >      put (HowManySeconds) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 86400) into
> > running_second_count
> >   end if
> >
> >   -- hours
> >
> >   put running_second_count / 3600 into next_calculation
> >
> >   if next_calculation < 1 then
> >      replace "<hh>" with "00" in final_output
> >   else
> >      // how many hours?
> >      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
> >         replace "<hh>" with "0" & item 1 of next_calculation in
> > final_output
> >      else
> >         replace "<hh>" with item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
> >      end if
> >
> >      put (running_second_count) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 3600)
> into
> > running_second_count
> >   end if
> >
> >
> >   -- minutes
> >
> >   put running_second_count / 60 into next_calculation
> >
> >   if next_calculation < 1 then
> >      replace "<mm>" with "00" in final_output
> >   else
> >      // how many minutes?
> >      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
> >         replace "<mm>" with "0" & item 1 of next_calculation in
> > final_output
> >      else
> >         replace "<mm>" with item 1 of next_calculation in final_output
> >      end if
> >
> >      put (running_second_count) - (item 1 of next_calculation * 60) into
> > running_second_count
> >
> >   end if
> >
> >   -- seconds
> >
> >   put running_second_count into next_calculation
> >
> >      if next_calculation < 1 then
> >      replace "<ss>" with "00" in final_output
> >   else
> >      // how many minutes?
> >      if the number of characters in item 1 of next_calculation = 1 then
> >         replace "<ss>" with "0" & next_calculation in final_output
> >      else
> >         replace "<ss>" with next_calculation in final_output
> >      end if
> >   end if
> >
> >   return final_output
> > end TimeDisplay
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:55 AM Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I would +1 a deltaTime format, but we might not agree on hours over 24
> and
> >> fractions of a second.
> >>
> >>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Bill Vlahos via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> All great suggestions.
> >>>
> >>> I mostly wanted to see if there already was such a function - which
> >> there obviously isn?t.
> >>>
> >>> But it is great to see several easy ways to built your own.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks all.
> >>>
> >>> Bill Vlahos
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem with one-liners is that the genius is implicit, not
> >> explicit. ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob S
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Oct 17, 2019, at 08:44 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Show-off. :-)
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tom Glod
> > Founder & Developer
> > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > Office:226-706-9339
> > Mobile:226-706-9793
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>


From brahma at hindu.org  Fri Oct 18 23:59:57 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 03:59:57 +0000
Subject: iOS 13.1.3 - Catelina 
Message-ID: <6B86BD7B-F6BC-4EE1-8513-86D2E1723AB2@hindu.org>

We are in software no-man's land? the last three days, mired in technical mud

1. Play beachball with Adobe InDesign (app hangs on every 10 key strokes, and you move to a new tool) Spent 2 hour screen sharing with a very savvy lad in New Delhi. No Go.... 

2. iPhone pestering for an upgrade. I finally gave in. iOS 13.1.3   and now my iTunes and Audio library on the phone are missing!

3. Now about to release our app... just filing our iTunes submission forms, getting new screen shots... but now the mobileAudioPlayer controller has  disappeared on the Listen Module... in iOS 13.1.3.

Argh... other functions work, can play the audio, download it, when I place a translucent backdrop on the screen (we are using black for this module) when I download an audio... I see the player controller is there, but just like a black field, no play/pause forward  or back control

Look at 9.5 release notes. iOS 13+ plus is not supported, and only Mojave.

Only two weeks out from the Jan 2020 deadline for Hinduism Today... we have team meeting tomorrow: I suspect we will have bit the bullet (we never upgrade this soon!) and to get Indesign working we have all have to move Catelina.

Apple! "catch us if you can"  

A hard game to play...

Brahmanathaswami







From tfabacher at gmail.com  Sat Oct 19 00:08:03 2019
From: tfabacher at gmail.com (Todd Fabacher)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 00:08:03 -0400
Subject: LiveCode Server
Message-ID: <CACjPeOQJZ_NuHsBtXE1UL6CyrVwjfT_gp57ootnHE_r2nSxoLw@mail.gmail.com>

GOOD NEWS - Got it to work. Someone should take note an issue with
Apache 2 and LiveCode server

SetEnvIf Authorization "(.*)" HTTP_AUTHORIZATION=$1

For Linux in /etc/apache2/apache2.conf

For Mac (using Homebrew) in /usr/local/etc/httpd/httpd.conf

Adding this to .htaccess didn't work for some reason - only Apache
config worked:
RewriteEngine On
RewriteCond %{HTTP:Authorization} ^(.*)
RewriteRule .* - [e=HTTP_AUTHORIZATION:%1]

--Todd & Lagi



From jjs at krutt.org  Sat Oct 19 08:10:19 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:10:19 +0200
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <CACjPeOQJZ_NuHsBtXE1UL6CyrVwjfT_gp57ootnHE_r2nSxoLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACjPeOQJZ_NuHsBtXE1UL6CyrVwjfT_gp57ootnHE_r2nSxoLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89492F7D-268E-422A-A6B8-A225B63B30DA@krutt.org>

Follow the pre-last message too, which describes how to install with latest apache 2.x, don't mess with Apache 2.conf. the lesson should updated as it is no longer valid.

Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 19 oktober 2019 06:08:03 CEST:
>GOOD NEWS - Got it to work. Someone should take note an issue with
>Apache 2 and LiveCode server
>
>SetEnvIf Authorization "(.*)" HTTP_AUTHORIZATION=$1
>
>For Linux in /etc/apache2/apache2.conf
>
>For Mac (using Homebrew) in /usr/local/etc/httpd/httpd.conf
>
>Adding this to .htaccess didn't work for some reason - only Apache
>config worked:
>RewriteEngine On
>RewriteCond %{HTTP:Authorization} ^(.*)
>RewriteRule .* - [e=HTTP_AUTHORIZATION:%1]
>
>--Todd & Lagi
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From jjs at krutt.org  Sat Oct 19 08:20:50 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:20:50 +0200
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <89492F7D-268E-422A-A6B8-A225B63B30DA@krutt.org>
References: <CACjPeOQJZ_NuHsBtXE1UL6CyrVwjfT_gp57ootnHE_r2nSxoLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <89492F7D-268E-422A-A6B8-A225B63B30DA@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <7EE3D522-62B2-4723-994B-CD3172BA981C@krutt.org>

I meant the pre-last message at the lesson on how to install lc server on linux server. A very good explanation.

Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 19 oktober 2019 14:10:19 CEST:
>Follow the pre-last message too, which describes how to install with
>latest apache 2.x, don't mess with Apache 2.conf. the lesson should
>updated as it is no longer valid.
>
>Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef
>op 19 oktober 2019 06:08:03 CEST:
>>GOOD NEWS - Got it to work. Someone should take note an issue with
>>Apache 2 and LiveCode server
>>
>>SetEnvIf Authorization "(.*)" HTTP_AUTHORIZATION=$1
>>
>>For Linux in /etc/apache2/apache2.conf
>>
>>For Mac (using Homebrew) in /usr/local/etc/httpd/httpd.conf
>>
>>Adding this to .htaccess didn't work for some reason - only Apache
>>config worked:
>>RewriteEngine On
>>RewriteCond %{HTTP:Authorization} ^(.*)
>>RewriteRule .* - [e=HTTP_AUTHORIZATION:%1]
>>
>>--Todd & Lagi
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>use-livecode mailing list
>>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>subscription preferences:
>>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>-- 
>Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From brahma at hindu.org  Sat Oct 19 09:49:12 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 13:49:12 +0000
Subject: Player object in iOS 13....
Message-ID: <57E5BC5F-D605-4438-B3E3-7967E84B086F@hindu.org>

Can any one confirm: 

 the iOS mobileAudioPlayer controller is broken with the iOS 13 update

put pRect into sPlayerRect
mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "visible", true 
mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "rect", pRect
mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "showController", true 
mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "filename", pURL 
if pURL begins with "https" then
showBusyIndicator true, "Loading audio..." -- add loading indicator until duration is available
end if

Alternatives?

BR





From brian at milby7.com  Sat Oct 19 10:09:23 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 10:09:23 -0400
Subject: Player object in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <57E5BC5F-D605-4438-B3E3-7967E84B086F@hindu.org>
References: <57E5BC5F-D605-4438-B3E3-7967E84B086F@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <adb83497-01ad-4ecd-b5ab-a3d03e2dba26@Spark>

I can confirm that it does not work in the release version of the app either. ?I checked 13.1.2 and 13.1.3 but not the earlier versions of 13.

One potential alternative would be a browser widget.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 19, 2019, 9:50 AM -0400, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode , wrote:
> Can any one confirm:
>
> the iOS mobileAudioPlayer controller is broken with the iOS 13 update
>
> put pRect into sPlayerRect
> mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "visible", true
> mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "rect", pRect
> mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "showController", true
> mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "filename", pURL
> if pURL begins with "https" then
> showBusyIndicator true, "Loading audio..." -- add loading indicator until duration is available
> end if
>
> Alternatives?
>
> BR
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jjs at krutt.org  Sat Oct 19 11:57:35 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 17:57:35 +0200
Subject: Player object in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <adb83497-01ad-4ecd-b5ab-a3d03e2dba26@Spark>
References: <57E5BC5F-D605-4438-B3E3-7967E84B086F@hindu.org>
 <adb83497-01ad-4ecd-b5ab-a3d03e2dba26@Spark>
Message-ID: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>

Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.

Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 19 oktober 2019 16:09:23 CEST:
>I can confirm that it does not work in the release version of the app
>either. ?I checked 13.1.2 and 13.1.3 but not the earlier versions of
>13.
>
>One potential alternative would be a browser widget.
>
>Thanks,
>Brian
>On Oct 19, 2019, 9:50 AM -0400, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via
>use-livecode , wrote:
>> Can any one confirm:
>>
>> the iOS mobileAudioPlayer controller is broken with the iOS 13 update
>>
>> put pRect into sPlayerRect
>> mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "visible", true
>> mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "rect", pRect
>> mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "showController", true
>> mobileControlSet pPlayerName, "filename", pURL
>> if pURL begins with "https" then
>> showBusyIndicator true, "Loading audio..." -- add loading indicator
>until duration is available
>> end if
>>
>> Alternatives?
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Sat Oct 19 11:59:36 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 16:59:36 +0100
Subject: iOS 13.1.3 - Catelina
In-Reply-To: <6B86BD7B-F6BC-4EE1-8513-86D2E1723AB2@hindu.org>
References: <6B86BD7B-F6BC-4EE1-8513-86D2E1723AB2@hindu.org>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSR5Z81aTzvVdfAnCUWbpq_6hMh5oSjyKBXJoTraPR5gYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Swami,

I think this is called 'Early Adopters Syndrome'. I learnt this the hard
way from OSX 10.0.0 and onwards. I was always in the fortunate position to
have more than one Mac to try it on or enough space to dual boot. I still
do. The same goes for my Windoze machines as they can be just as prone.

I hope you are able to get out of the mud soon. On the positive side, Adobe
are very much on the ball about it. And LC 9.5 is very likely to land next
week I am betting.

Regarding your music library, to check this, go to the library section and
tap on Downloaded Music. And with a wifi connection to your Mac try the
Home Sharing section. If they are empty then something went wrong during
the upgrade process that required it to reset your phone altogether. This
normally only happens if you were previously running a beta version of iOS
though. Home-sharing or connecting to your mac may allow you to retrieve
your library/playlists.

For future reference, wisdom will tell you to hold back on upgrades until
the general consensus from other early adopters gives the go-ahead.

All the very best.

Sean


On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 at 04:59, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> We are in software no-man's land? the last three days, mired in technical
> mud
>
> 1. Play beachball with Adobe InDesign (app hangs on every 10 key strokes,
> and you move to a new tool) Spent 2 hour screen sharing with a very savvy
> lad in New Delhi. No Go....
>
> 2. iPhone pestering for an upgrade. I finally gave in. iOS 13.1.3   and
> now my iTunes and Audio library on the phone are missing!
>
> 3. Now about to release our app... just filing our iTunes submission
> forms, getting new screen shots... but now the mobileAudioPlayer controller
> has  disappeared on the Listen Module... in iOS 13.1.3.
>
> Argh... other functions work, can play the audio, download it, when I
> place a translucent backdrop on the screen (we are using black for this
> module) when I download an audio... I see the player controller is there,
> but just like a black field, no play/pause forward  or back control
>
> Look at 9.5 release notes. iOS 13+ plus is not supported, and only Mojave.
>
> Only two weeks out from the Jan 2020 deadline for Hinduism Today... we
> have team meeting tomorrow: I suspect we will have bit the bullet (we never
> upgrade this soon!) and to get Indesign working we have all have to move
> Catelina.
>
> Apple! "catch us if you can"
>
> A hard game to play...
>
> Brahmanathaswami
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From rabit at revigniter.com  Sat Oct 19 12:08:21 2019
From: rabit at revigniter.com (Ralf Bitter)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 18:08:21 +0200
Subject: LiveCode Server
In-Reply-To: <CACjPeOQJZ_NuHsBtXE1UL6CyrVwjfT_gp57ootnHE_r2nSxoLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACjPeOQJZ_NuHsBtXE1UL6CyrVwjfT_gp57ootnHE_r2nSxoLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7DA7AD58-43E6-4C57-BBFC-91BBD99165D4@revigniter.com>

Thanks for the info Todd. This explains why I had
an issue on Mac OS. I once added the directive to .htaccess.

Ralf


> On 19. Oct 2019, at 06:08, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> GOOD NEWS - Got it to work. Someone should take note an issue with
> Apache 2 and LiveCode server
> 
> SetEnvIf Authorization "(.*)" HTTP_AUTHORIZATION=$1
> 
> For Linux in /etc/apache2/apache2.conf
> 
> For Mac (using Homebrew) in /usr/local/etc/httpd/httpd.conf
> 
> Adding this to .htaccess didn't work for some reason - only Apache
> config worked:
> RewriteEngine On
> RewriteCond %{HTTP:Authorization} ^(.*)
> RewriteRule .* - [e=HTTP_AUTHORIZATION:%1]
> 
> --Todd & Lagi




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Sat Oct 19 16:36:24 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 21:36:24 +0100
Subject: sub: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>

Jjs

That?s an unfair statement, especially based on topic. It is quite likely it is only a tiny update for Monte to fix. My experience says that ALL OS systems/devices break bar none unless they don?t update at all and stay stagnant. So which system do you prefer JJS? And remember only to mention one that is completely infallible and never likely to break. Id especially love to know a device name that is completely 100% future proof I can pitch to my customers. As yet, the ?most? reliable I have found from a whole heap of testing and long term experience are iPad Pro and Macs. Even my ipad2 is shockingly more reliable than any of my top end Samsung tabs (unless I strip them right down and use custom OS). 

To confirm, I?m not offended or upset. I just think the comment was unfair and exaggerated. They break for sure, but not to the extent to ?refuse? it. Roids way of avoiding breaking is to only offer minor device OS updates and expect you to bin old devices after a couple of years (apposed to the 6-8years for Apple). 

Peace. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

> On 19 Oct 2019, at 16:57, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.


From brahma at hindu.org  Sat Oct 19 19:50:29 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 23:50:29 +0000
Subject: iOS 13.1.3 - Catelina
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSR5Z81aTzvVdfAnCUWbpq_6hMh5oSjyKBXJoTraPR5gYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6B86BD7B-F6BC-4EE1-8513-86D2E1723AB2@hindu.org>
 <CABRqQSR5Z81aTzvVdfAnCUWbpq_6hMh5oSjyKBXJoTraPR5gYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3BCE97F-4D4A-4D82-AD1B-BE93FDFC0503@hindu.org>

"For future reference, wisdom will tell you to hold back on upgrades until
the general consensus from other early adopters gives the go-ahead."

We, normally,  always do that? myself I normally wait 2-3 month for before upgrading a system. Apple views their audience as a beta test group. We know that wait while  all the early "patches" are flying out?.

But this time Adobe brought us to the ground in Mojave? had to move up.

I write this in Catalina. Boy, no question, it is fast!  And LiveCode opens too!? I wonder what caveats await us.

But iOS updates -- not something a developer can avoid. It not you, it's your users. So now LC needs to fix the Player Controller bug ASAP! (that Apple introduced)?. 

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22418

Really have to give a big round applause to LC engineering. Having to play "catch us if you can" with Apple must be a grinding job.  

BR


From jjs at krutt.org  Sun Oct 20 05:17:30 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 11:17:30 +0200
Subject: sub: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
 <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>

What's unfair about it. Don't be offended.

It's not against you or LC, it's not even entirely against Apple, they 
have also good things. It's just an opinion.

I believe there are more discussions about Apple issues on this list 
than i see about Windows or Linux or Android.

And for all 3 OS i also believe they are better backwards compatible. 
(for Android i'm not talking about the sauce samsung and thelike pour 
over it)

A lot of people i see who have an Macbook or iOs device, is because they 
want to show off that they can afford it, not of the reason that it 
would be better or easier.

I also understand that they want to close 32bit and move on, except many 
customer are not ready. But slowly moving on.

If people want it it's ok, but i see a lot of hassle that i choose not 
to go for.


Op 19-10-2019 om 22:36 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
> Jjs
>
> That?s an unfair statement, especially based on topic. It is quite likely it is only a tiny update for Monte to fix. My experience says that ALL OS systems/devices break bar none unless they don?t update at all and stay stagnant. So which system do you prefer JJS? And remember only to mention one that is completely infallible and never likely to break. Id especially love to know a device name that is completely 100% future proof I can pitch to my customers. As yet, the ?most? reliable I have found from a whole heap of testing and long term experience are iPad Pro and Macs. Even my ipad2 is shockingly more reliable than any of my top end Samsung tabs (unless I strip them right down and use custom OS).
>
> To confirm, I?m not offended or upset. I just think the comment was unfair and exaggerated. They break for sure, but not to the extent to ?refuse? it. Roids way of avoiding breaking is to only offer minor device OS updates and expect you to bin old devices after a couple of years (apposed to the 6-8years for Apple).
>
> Peace.
>
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>
>> On 19 Oct 2019, at 16:57, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From e.beugelaar at me.com  Sun Oct 20 05:40:03 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 11:40:03 +0200
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
 <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
 <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <56DF4B90-E549-465B-A339-F0D44F266A44@me.com>

The only thing what I don't like about the update policy of Apple is you cannot use new apps from the Store if you cannot update to a new iOS version without buying new hardware from Apple (esp. iPad's).
And yes, the costs of the same specs of Apple hardware compared to PC hardware are still 2 or 3 times more BUT the advantage is that you can run iOS and Windows natively on the same machine. Since the introduction of Apple's  T2 Security Chip it isn't possible to boot Linux on new Apple hardware like the 2018 MacBook Pro and Mac Mini anymore as far as I know.
Furthermore, because of bad experiences upgrading macOS's in the past, I don't upgrade to a the newest macOS version if there is no need for. It has saved me a lot of frustrations...
But I am not an advocate, I both like to work on Apple (macOS) and PC (Windows/Linux) machines.

?On 20/10/2019, 11:18, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    What's unfair about it. Don't be offended.
    
    It's not against you or LC, it's not even entirely against Apple, they 
    have also good things. It's just an opinion.
    
    I believe there are more discussions about Apple issues on this list 
    than i see about Windows or Linux or Android.
    
    And for all 3 OS i also believe they are better backwards compatible. 
    (for Android i'm not talking about the sauce samsung and thelike pour 
    over it)
    
    A lot of people i see who have an Macbook or iOs device, is because they 
    want to show off that they can afford it, not of the reason that it 
    would be better or easier.
    
    I also understand that they want to close 32bit and move on, except many 
    customer are not ready. But slowly moving on.
    
    If people want it it's ok, but i see a lot of hassle that i choose not 
    to go for.
    
    
    Op 19-10-2019 om 22:36 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
    > Jjs
    >
    > That?s an unfair statement, especially based on topic. It is quite likely it is only a tiny update for Monte to fix. My experience says that ALL OS systems/devices break bar none unless they don?t update at all and stay stagnant. So which system do you prefer JJS? And remember only to mention one that is completely infallible and never likely to break. Id especially love to know a device name that is completely 100% future proof I can pitch to my customers. As yet, the ?most? reliable I have found from a whole heap of testing and long term experience are iPad Pro and Macs. Even my ipad2 is shockingly more reliable than any of my top end Samsung tabs (unless I strip them right down and use custom OS).
    >
    > To confirm, I?m not offended or upset. I just think the comment was unfair and exaggerated. They break for sure, but not to the extent to ?refuse? it. Roids way of avoiding breaking is to only offer minor device OS updates and expect you to bin old devices after a couple of years (apposed to the 6-8years for Apple).
    >
    > Peace.
    >
    > Sean Cole
    > Pi Digital Prod Ltd
    >
    >> On 19 Oct 2019, at 16:57, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> ?Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From e.beugelaar at me.com  Sun Oct 20 07:45:27 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 13:45:27 +0200
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <1c542365-7d12-be5e-c3fd-6fddeb498ef5@krutt.org>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
 <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
 <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>
 <56DF4B90-E549-465B-A339-F0D44F266A44@me.com>
 <1c542365-7d12-be5e-c3fd-6fddeb498ef5@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <C09655F5-5F4C-4E29-A5BA-C7DF778DDAAF@me.com>

Yes, I think you are right. I just dive into it after a long time but that seems indeed the problem. As you know, running macOS from Hackintosh?s, Security Boot must be disabled so as SIP (because of patching during boot). I have not test yet to install Linux on my MacBook Pro though.

 

 OT: An interesting thread about running Catalina on older Mac?s can be found here: https://macandegg.com/2019/07/macos-catalina-patcher-10-15-on-old-macs/ incase people want to install it on Mac ?s before mid 2012.

 

 

From: JJS <jjs at krutt.org>
Date: Sunday, 20 October 2019 at 12:52
To: Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>, How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Subject: Re: ... in iOS 13....

 

It seems that when Secure Boot and SIP is disabled, then using Refind https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/index.html as bootloader you can get Linux working too.

I saw some discussions about the T2 and issues when powering off, unplug power cable seems to trigger something.

https://sourceforge.net/p/refind/discussion/general/thread/1475e30077/

Op 20-10-2019 om 11:40 schreef Erik Beugelaar:
The only thing what I don't like about the update policy of Apple is you cannot use new apps from the Store if you cannot update to a new iOS version without buying new hardware from Apple (esp. iPad's).
And yes, the costs of the same specs of Apple hardware compared to PC hardware are still 2 or 3 times more BUT the advantage is that you can run iOS and Windows natively on the same machine. Since the introduction of Apple's? T2 Security Chip it isn't possible to boot Linux on new Apple hardware like the 2018 MacBook Pro and Mac Mini anymore as far as I know.
Furthermore, because of bad experiences upgrading macOS's in the past, I don't upgrade to a the newest macOS version if there is no need for. It has saved me a lot of frustrations...
But I am not an advocate, I both like to work on Apple (macOS) and PC (Windows/Linux) machines.
 
?On 20/10/2019, 11:18, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
??? What's unfair about it. Don't be offended.
??? 
????It's not against you or LC, it's not even entirely against Apple, they 
????have also good things. It's just an opinion.
??? 
????I believe there are more discussions about Apple issues on this list 
????than i see about Windows or Linux or Android.
??? 
????And for all 3 OS i also believe they are better backwards compatible. 
????(for Android i'm not talking about the sauce samsung and thelike pour 
????over it)
??? 
????A lot of people i see who have an Macbook or iOs device, is because they 
????want to show off that they can afford it, not of the reason that it 
????would be better or easier.
??? 
????I also understand that they want to close 32bit and move on, except many 
????customer are not ready. But slowly moving on.
??? 
????If people want it it's ok, but i see a lot of hassle that i choose not 
????to go for.
??? 
????
????Op 19-10-2019 om 22:36 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
??? > Jjs
??? >
??? > That?s an unfair statement, especially based on topic. It is quite likely it is only a tiny update for Monte to fix. My experience says that ALL OS systems/devices break bar none unless they don?t update at all and stay stagnant. So which system do you prefer JJS? And remember only to mention one that is completely infallible and never likely to break. Id especially love to know a device name that is completely 100% future proof I can pitch to my customers. As yet, the ?most? reliable I have found from a whole heap of testing and long term experience are iPad Pro and Macs. Even my ipad2 is shockingly more reliable than any of my top end Samsung tabs (unless I strip them right down and use custom OS).
??? >
??? > To confirm, I?m not offended or upset. I just think the comment was unfair and exaggerated. They break for sure, but not to the extent to ?refuse? it. Roids way of avoiding breaking is to only offer minor device OS updates and expect you to bin old devices after a couple of years (apposed to the 6-8years for Apple).
??? >
??? > Peace.
??? >
??? > Sean Cole
??? > Pi Digital Prod Ltd
??? >
??? >> On 19 Oct 2019, at 16:57, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
??? >>
??? >> ?Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.
??? > _______________________________________________
??? > use-livecode mailing list
??? > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
??? > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
 ???> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
??? 
????_______________________________________________
??? use-livecode mailing list
??? use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
??? Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
??? http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
??? 
 
 



From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org  Sun Oct 20 13:10:19 2019
From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:10:19 -0700
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <C09655F5-5F4C-4E29-A5BA-C7DF778DDAAF@me.com>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
 <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
 <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>
 <56DF4B90-E549-465B-A339-F0D44F266A44@me.com>
 <1c542365-7d12-be5e-c3fd-6fddeb498ef5@krutt.org>
 <C09655F5-5F4C-4E29-A5BA-C7DF778DDAAF@me.com>
Message-ID: <0EE603CA-0224-4B11-93E3-F0F3430BBE95@earthlearningsolutions.org>

Folks:
I have a bit of a worry about the Apple Catalina update. I want to keep a bootable copy of the latest Mojave OS on an external disc. That way I can run any older 32 bit programs I might need. However, I have a backup program (Tri-Backup) that says it can?t make a bootable drive because of Apple security. That has raised a bit of a red flag to me. 

Currently, I use SuperDuper to make a bootable backup. SuperDuper isn?t updated for Catalina yet, it seems.

What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings won?t allow booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my option of having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.

Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just being paranoid (totally justifiably).
Best,
Bill


William A. Prothero
Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
http://earthlearningsolutions.org/

> On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:45 AM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I think you are right. I just dive into it after a long time but that seems indeed the problem. As you know, running macOS from Hackintosh?s, Security Boot must be disabled so as SIP (because of patching during boot). I have not test yet to install Linux on my MacBook Pro though.
> 
> 
> 
> OT: An interesting thread about running Catalina on older Mac?s can be found here: https://macandegg.com/2019/07/macos-catalina-patcher-10-15-on-old-macs/ incase people want to install it on Mac ?s before mid 2012.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: JJS <jjs at krutt.org>
> Date: Sunday, 20 October 2019 at 12:52
> To: Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>, How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: ... in iOS 13....
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that when Secure Boot and SIP is disabled, then using Refind https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/index.html as bootloader you can get Linux working too.
> 
> I saw some discussions about the T2 and issues when powering off, unplug power cable seems to trigger something.
> 
> https://sourceforge.net/p/refind/discussion/general/thread/1475e30077/
> 
> Op 20-10-2019 om 11:40 schreef Erik Beugelaar:
> The only thing what I don't like about the update policy of Apple is you cannot use new apps from the Store if you cannot update to a new iOS version without buying new hardware from Apple (esp. iPad's).
> And yes, the costs of the same specs of Apple hardware compared to PC hardware are still 2 or 3 times more BUT the advantage is that you can run iOS and Windows natively on the same machine. Since the introduction of Apple's  T2 Security Chip it isn't possible to boot Linux on new Apple hardware like the 2018 MacBook Pro and Mac Mini anymore as far as I know.
> Furthermore, because of bad experiences upgrading macOS's in the past, I don't upgrade to a the newest macOS version if there is no need for. It has saved me a lot of frustrations...
> But I am not an advocate, I both like to work on Apple (macOS) and PC (Windows/Linux) machines.
> 
> ?On 20/10/2019, 11:18, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>     What's unfair about it. Don't be offended.
>     
>     It's not against you or LC, it's not even entirely against Apple, they 
>     have also good things. It's just an opinion.
>     
>     I believe there are more discussions about Apple issues on this list 
>     than i see about Windows or Linux or Android.
>     
>     And for all 3 OS i also believe they are better backwards compatible. 
>     (for Android i'm not talking about the sauce samsung and thelike pour 
>     over it)
>     
>     A lot of people i see who have an Macbook or iOs device, is because they 
>     want to show off that they can afford it, not of the reason that it 
>     would be better or easier.
>     
>     I also understand that they want to close 32bit and move on, except many 
>     customer are not ready. But slowly moving on.
>     
>     If people want it it's ok, but i see a lot of hassle that i choose not 
>     to go for.
>     
>     
>     Op 19-10-2019 om 22:36 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
>     > Jjs
>     >
>     > That?s an unfair statement, especially based on topic. It is quite likely it is only a tiny update for Monte to fix. My experience says that ALL OS systems/devices break bar none unless they don?t update at all and stay stagnant. So which system do you prefer JJS? And remember only to mention one that is completely infallible and never likely to break. Id especially love to know a device name that is completely 100% future proof I can pitch to my customers. As yet, the ?most? reliable I have found from a whole heap of testing and long term experience are iPad Pro and Macs. Even my ipad2 is shockingly more reliable than any of my top end Samsung tabs (unless I strip them right down and use custom OS).
>     >
>     > To confirm, I?m not offended or upset. I just think the comment was unfair and exaggerated. They break for sure, but not to the extent to ?refuse? it. Roids way of avoiding breaking is to only offer minor device OS updates and expect you to bin old devices after a couple of years (apposed to the 6-8years for Apple).
>     >
>     > Peace.
>     >
>     > Sean Cole
>     > Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>     >
>     >> On 19 Oct 2019, at 16:57, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> ?Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > use-livecode mailing list
>     > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>     > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>     
>     _______________________________________________
>     use-livecode mailing list
>     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>     
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From waprothero at gmail.com  Sun Oct 20 13:12:23 2019
From: waprothero at gmail.com (William Prothero)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:12:23 -0700
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <C09655F5-5F4C-4E29-A5BA-C7DF778DDAAF@me.com>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
 <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
 <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>
 <56DF4B90-E549-465B-A339-F0D44F266A44@me.com>
 <1c542365-7d12-be5e-c3fd-6fddeb498ef5@krutt.org>
 <C09655F5-5F4C-4E29-A5BA-C7DF778DDAAF@me.com>
Message-ID: <3661E4D3-D258-4C0B-9C24-3EF26F31D265@gmail.com>

Folks:
I have a bit of a worry about the Apple Catalina update. I want to keep a bootable copy of the latest Mojave OS on an external disc. That way I can run any older 32 bit programs I might need. However, I have a backup program (Tri-Backup) that says it can?t make a bootable drive because of Apple security. That has raised a bit of a red flag to me. 

Currently, I use SuperDuper to make a bootable backup. SuperDuper isn?t updated for Catalina yet, it seems.

What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings won?t allow booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my option of having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.

Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just being paranoid (totally justifiably).
Best,
Bill

PS: sorry if this is a duplicate.

> On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:45 AM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I think you are right. I just dive into it after a long time but that seems indeed the problem. As you know, running macOS from Hackintosh?s, Security Boot must be disabled so as SIP (because of patching during boot). I have not test yet to install Linux on my MacBook Pro though.
> 
> 
> 
> OT: An interesting thread about running Catalina on older Mac?s can be found here: https://macandegg.com/2019/07/macos-catalina-patcher-10-15-on-old-macs/ incase people want to install it on Mac ?s before mid 2012.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: JJS <jjs at krutt.org>
> Date: Sunday, 20 October 2019 at 12:52
> To: Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>, How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Subject: Re: ... in iOS 13....
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that when Secure Boot and SIP is disabled, then using Refind https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/index.html as bootloader you can get Linux working too.
> 
> I saw some discussions about the T2 and issues when powering off, unplug power cable seems to trigger something.
> 
> https://sourceforge.net/p/refind/discussion/general/thread/1475e30077/
> 
> Op 20-10-2019 om 11:40 schreef Erik Beugelaar:
> The only thing what I don't like about the update policy of Apple is you cannot use new apps from the Store if you cannot update to a new iOS version without buying new hardware from Apple (esp. iPad's).
> And yes, the costs of the same specs of Apple hardware compared to PC hardware are still 2 or 3 times more BUT the advantage is that you can run iOS and Windows natively on the same machine. Since the introduction of Apple's  T2 Security Chip it isn't possible to boot Linux on new Apple hardware like the 2018 MacBook Pro and Mac Mini anymore as far as I know.
> Furthermore, because of bad experiences upgrading macOS's in the past, I don't upgrade to a the newest macOS version if there is no need for. It has saved me a lot of frustrations...
> But I am not an advocate, I both like to work on Apple (macOS) and PC (Windows/Linux) machines.
> 
> ?On 20/10/2019, 11:18, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>     What's unfair about it. Don't be offended.
>     
>     It's not against you or LC, it's not even entirely against Apple, they 
>     have also good things. It's just an opinion.
>     
>     I believe there are more discussions about Apple issues on this list 
>     than i see about Windows or Linux or Android.
>     
>     And for all 3 OS i also believe they are better backwards compatible. 
>     (for Android i'm not talking about the sauce samsung and thelike pour 
>     over it)
>     
>     A lot of people i see who have an Macbook or iOs device, is because they 
>     want to show off that they can afford it, not of the reason that it 
>     would be better or easier.
>     
>     I also understand that they want to close 32bit and move on, except many 
>     customer are not ready. But slowly moving on.
>     
>     If people want it it's ok, but i see a lot of hassle that i choose not 
>     to go for.
>     
>     
>     Op 19-10-2019 om 22:36 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
>     > Jjs
>     >
>     > That?s an unfair statement, especially based on topic. It is quite likely it is only a tiny update for Monte to fix. My experience says that ALL OS systems/devices break bar none unless they don?t update at all and stay stagnant. So which system do you prefer JJS? And remember only to mention one that is completely infallible and never likely to break. Id especially love to know a device name that is completely 100% future proof I can pitch to my customers. As yet, the ?most? reliable I have found from a whole heap of testing and long term experience are iPad Pro and Macs. Even my ipad2 is shockingly more reliable than any of my top end Samsung tabs (unless I strip them right down and use custom OS).
>     >
>     > To confirm, I?m not offended or upset. I just think the comment was unfair and exaggerated. They break for sure, but not to the extent to ?refuse? it. Roids way of avoiding breaking is to only offer minor device OS updates and expect you to bin old devices after a couple of years (apposed to the 6-8years for Apple).
>     >
>     > Peace.
>     >
>     > Sean Cole
>     > Pi Digital Prod Ltd
>     >
>     >> On 19 Oct 2019, at 16:57, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> ?Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > use-livecode mailing list
>     > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>     > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>     
>     _______________________________________________
>     use-livecode mailing list
>     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>     
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From e.beugelaar at me.com  Sun Oct 20 13:52:07 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 19:52:07 +0200
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <3661E4D3-D258-4C0B-9C24-3EF26F31D265@gmail.com>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
 <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
 <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>
 <56DF4B90-E549-465B-A339-F0D44F266A44@me.com>
 <1c542365-7d12-be5e-c3fd-6fddeb498ef5@krutt.org>
 <C09655F5-5F4C-4E29-A5BA-C7DF778DDAAF@me.com>
 <3661E4D3-D258-4C0B-9C24-3EF26F31D265@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <329D397E-B36C-4760-ACFA-BA83040AB482@me.com>

Bill,
I haven't tried yet but this link will help you maybe: https://www.howtoisolve.com/dual-boot-mac-install-macos-catalina-macos-mojave-two-macos-on-different-partition/
Regards,
Erik


?On 20/10/2019, 19:13, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Folks:
    I have a bit of a worry about the Apple Catalina update. I want to keep a bootable copy of the latest Mojave OS on an external disc. That way I can run any older 32 bit programs I might need. However, I have a backup program (Tri-Backup) that says it can?t make a bootable drive because of Apple security. That has raised a bit of a red flag to me. 
    
    Currently, I use SuperDuper to make a bootable backup. SuperDuper isn?t updated for Catalina yet, it seems.
    
    What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings won?t allow booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my option of having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.
    
    Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just being paranoid (totally justifiably).
    Best,
    Bill
    
    PS: sorry if this is a duplicate.
    
    > On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:45 AM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    > 
    > Yes, I think you are right. I just dive into it after a long time but that seems indeed the problem. As you know, running macOS from Hackintosh?s, Security Boot must be disabled so as SIP (because of patching during boot). I have not test yet to install Linux on my MacBook Pro though.
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > OT: An interesting thread about running Catalina on older Mac?s can be found here: https://macandegg.com/2019/07/macos-catalina-patcher-10-15-on-old-macs/ incase people want to install it on Mac ?s before mid 2012.
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > From: JJS <jjs at krutt.org>
    > Date: Sunday, 20 October 2019 at 12:52
    > To: Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>, How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
    > Subject: Re: ... in iOS 13....
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > It seems that when Secure Boot and SIP is disabled, then using Refind https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/index.html as bootloader you can get Linux working too.
    > 
    > I saw some discussions about the T2 and issues when powering off, unplug power cable seems to trigger something.
    > 
    > https://sourceforge.net/p/refind/discussion/general/thread/1475e30077/
    > 
    > Op 20-10-2019 om 11:40 schreef Erik Beugelaar:
    > The only thing what I don't like about the update policy of Apple is you cannot use new apps from the Store if you cannot update to a new iOS version without buying new hardware from Apple (esp. iPad's).
    > And yes, the costs of the same specs of Apple hardware compared to PC hardware are still 2 or 3 times more BUT the advantage is that you can run iOS and Windows natively on the same machine. Since the introduction of Apple's  T2 Security Chip it isn't possible to boot Linux on new Apple hardware like the 2018 MacBook Pro and Mac Mini anymore as far as I know.
    > Furthermore, because of bad experiences upgrading macOS's in the past, I don't upgrade to a the newest macOS version if there is no need for. It has saved me a lot of frustrations...
    > But I am not an advocate, I both like to work on Apple (macOS) and PC (Windows/Linux) machines.
    > 
    > ?On 20/10/2019, 11:18, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    > 
    >     What's unfair about it. Don't be offended.
    >     
    >     It's not against you or LC, it's not even entirely against Apple, they 
    >     have also good things. It's just an opinion.
    >     
    >     I believe there are more discussions about Apple issues on this list 
    >     than i see about Windows or Linux or Android.
    >     
    >     And for all 3 OS i also believe they are better backwards compatible. 
    >     (for Android i'm not talking about the sauce samsung and thelike pour 
    >     over it)
    >     
    >     A lot of people i see who have an Macbook or iOs device, is because they 
    >     want to show off that they can afford it, not of the reason that it 
    >     would be better or easier.
    >     
    >     I also understand that they want to close 32bit and move on, except many 
    >     customer are not ready. But slowly moving on.
    >     
    >     If people want it it's ok, but i see a lot of hassle that i choose not 
    >     to go for.
    >     
    >     
    >     Op 19-10-2019 om 22:36 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
    >     > Jjs
    >     >
    >     > That?s an unfair statement, especially based on topic. It is quite likely it is only a tiny update for Monte to fix. My experience says that ALL OS systems/devices break bar none unless they don?t update at all and stay stagnant. So which system do you prefer JJS? And remember only to mention one that is completely infallible and never likely to break. Id especially love to know a device name that is completely 100% future proof I can pitch to my customers. As yet, the ?most? reliable I have found from a whole heap of testing and long term experience are iPad Pro and Macs. Even my ipad2 is shockingly more reliable than any of my top end Samsung tabs (unless I strip them right down and use custom OS).
    >     >
    >     > To confirm, I?m not offended or upset. I just think the comment was unfair and exaggerated. They break for sure, but not to the extent to ?refuse? it. Roids way of avoiding breaking is to only offer minor device OS updates and expect you to bin old devices after a couple of years (apposed to the 6-8years for Apple).
    >     >
    >     > Peace.
    >     >
    >     > Sean Cole
    >     > Pi Digital Prod Ltd
    >     >
    >     >> On 19 Oct 2019, at 16:57, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    >     >>
    >     >> ?Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.
    >     > _______________________________________________
    >     > use-livecode mailing list
    >     > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    >     > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    >    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    >     
    >     _______________________________________________
    >     use-livecode mailing list
    >     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    >     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    >     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    >     
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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From brahma at hindu.org  Sun Oct 20 13:54:43 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 17:54:43 +0000
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <3661E4D3-D258-4C0B-9C24-3EF26F31D265@gmail.com>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
 <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
 <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>
 <56DF4B90-E549-465B-A339-F0D44F266A44@me.com>
 <1c542365-7d12-be5e-c3fd-6fddeb498ef5@krutt.org>
 <C09655F5-5F4C-4E29-A5BA-C7DF778DDAAF@me.com>
 <3661E4D3-D258-4C0B-9C24-3EF26F31D265@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CCB7EEA6-1615-4169-A521-9CC38DE94AE0@hindu.org>

Bill: A few us at the monastery run 32bit applications that have announced EOL due to Catalina? as are many programs: the market share does not warrant ROI for developing 64bit? (including my old favorite DragThing ?)

Our tech team (supersavvy network/server admins) have set up Parallels for one of us, and they say he will be able to run a 32bit astrology application "forever" .

What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings won?t allow booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my option of having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.

Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just being paranoid (totally justifiably)

From e.beugelaar at me.com  Sun Oct 20 14:00:11 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 20:00:11 +0200
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <329D397E-B36C-4760-ACFA-BA83040AB482@me.com>
References: <BF9BB55C-3458-45DB-A48E-82B7D0D837AB@krutt.org>
 <4190F104-E6FC-48DF-B0CC-ADB8CC3718C3@pidigital.co.uk>
 <d285fdec-ea65-57d6-5c2f-379c972d4a18@krutt.org>
 <56DF4B90-E549-465B-A339-F0D44F266A44@me.com>
 <1c542365-7d12-be5e-c3fd-6fddeb498ef5@krutt.org>
 <C09655F5-5F4C-4E29-A5BA-C7DF778DDAAF@me.com>
 <3661E4D3-D258-4C0B-9C24-3EF26F31D265@gmail.com>
 <329D397E-B36C-4760-ACFA-BA83040AB482@me.com>
Message-ID: <A4C437C6-9E24-49C0-85B2-E57B51AE4C92@me.com>

Forget to mention: when you start with this kind of procedures I always boot in Recovery Mode and make a full image via Disk Utility to an external disk!!!
I have used in the past also Carbo Copy Cloner but an image contains also your EFI and firmware setting. Never had any problems restoring an image.

My two cents.

?On 20/10/2019, 19:53, "use-livecode on behalf of Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Bill,
    I haven't tried yet but this link will help you maybe: https://www.howtoisolve.com/dual-boot-mac-install-macos-catalina-macos-mojave-two-macos-on-different-partition/
    Regards,
    Erik
    
    
    ?On 20/10/2019, 19:13, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    
        Folks:
        I have a bit of a worry about the Apple Catalina update. I want to keep a bootable copy of the latest Mojave OS on an external disc. That way I can run any older 32 bit programs I might need. However, I have a backup program (Tri-Backup) that says it can?t make a bootable drive because of Apple security. That has raised a bit of a red flag to me. 
        
        Currently, I use SuperDuper to make a bootable backup. SuperDuper isn?t updated for Catalina yet, it seems.
        
        What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings won?t allow booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my option of having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.
        
        Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just being paranoid (totally justifiably).
        Best,
        Bill
        
        PS: sorry if this is a duplicate.
        
        > On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:45 AM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
        > 
        > Yes, I think you are right. I just dive into it after a long time but that seems indeed the problem. As you know, running macOS from Hackintosh?s, Security Boot must be disabled so as SIP (because of patching during boot). I have not test yet to install Linux on my MacBook Pro though.
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > OT: An interesting thread about running Catalina on older Mac?s can be found here: https://macandegg.com/2019/07/macos-catalina-patcher-10-15-on-old-macs/ incase people want to install it on Mac ?s before mid 2012.
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > From: JJS <jjs at krutt.org>
        > Date: Sunday, 20 October 2019 at 12:52
        > To: Erik Beugelaar <e.beugelaar at me.com>, How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
        > Subject: Re: ... in iOS 13....
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > It seems that when Secure Boot and SIP is disabled, then using Refind https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/index.html as bootloader you can get Linux working too.
        > 
        > I saw some discussions about the T2 and issues when powering off, unplug power cable seems to trigger something.
        > 
        > https://sourceforge.net/p/refind/discussion/general/thread/1475e30077/
        > 
        > Op 20-10-2019 om 11:40 schreef Erik Beugelaar:
        > The only thing what I don't like about the update policy of Apple is you cannot use new apps from the Store if you cannot update to a new iOS version without buying new hardware from Apple (esp. iPad's).
        > And yes, the costs of the same specs of Apple hardware compared to PC hardware are still 2 or 3 times more BUT the advantage is that you can run iOS and Windows natively on the same machine. Since the introduction of Apple's  T2 Security Chip it isn't possible to boot Linux on new Apple hardware like the 2018 MacBook Pro and Mac Mini anymore as far as I know.
        > Furthermore, because of bad experiences upgrading macOS's in the past, I don't upgrade to a the newest macOS version if there is no need for. It has saved me a lot of frustrations...
        > But I am not an advocate, I both like to work on Apple (macOS) and PC (Windows/Linux) machines.
        > 
        > ?On 20/10/2019, 11:18, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
        > 
        >     What's unfair about it. Don't be offended.
        >     
        >     It's not against you or LC, it's not even entirely against Apple, they 
        >     have also good things. It's just an opinion.
        >     
        >     I believe there are more discussions about Apple issues on this list 
        >     than i see about Windows or Linux or Android.
        >     
        >     And for all 3 OS i also believe they are better backwards compatible. 
        >     (for Android i'm not talking about the sauce samsung and thelike pour 
        >     over it)
        >     
        >     A lot of people i see who have an Macbook or iOs device, is because they 
        >     want to show off that they can afford it, not of the reason that it 
        >     would be better or easier.
        >     
        >     I also understand that they want to close 32bit and move on, except many 
        >     customer are not ready. But slowly moving on.
        >     
        >     If people want it it's ok, but i see a lot of hassle that i choose not 
        >     to go for.
        >     
        >     
        >     Op 19-10-2019 om 22:36 schreef Pi Digital via use-livecode:
        >     > Jjs
        >     >
        >     > That?s an unfair statement, especially based on topic. It is quite likely it is only a tiny update for Monte to fix. My experience says that ALL OS systems/devices break bar none unless they don?t update at all and stay stagnant. So which system do you prefer JJS? And remember only to mention one that is completely infallible and never likely to break. Id especially love to know a device name that is completely 100% future proof I can pitch to my customers. As yet, the ?most? reliable I have found from a whole heap of testing and long term experience are iPad Pro and Macs. Even my ipad2 is shockingly more reliable than any of my top end Samsung tabs (unless I strip them right down and use custom OS).
        >     >
        >     > To confirm, I?m not offended or upset. I just think the comment was unfair and exaggerated. They break for sure, but not to the extent to ?refuse? it. Roids way of avoiding breaking is to only offer minor device OS updates and expect you to bin old devices after a couple of years (apposed to the 6-8years for Apple).
        >     >
        >     > Peace.
        >     >
        >     > Sean Cole
        >     > Pi Digital Prod Ltd
        >     >
        >     >> On 19 Oct 2019, at 16:57, Jjs via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
        >     >>
        >     >> ?Who still wants Apple or iOs, everything breaks with them. They never heard of backwards compatibility. If someone wants Apple or iOs, just refuse it. To much hassle, and costs to much.
        >     > _______________________________________________
        >     > use-livecode mailing list
        >     > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
        >     > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
        >    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
        >     
        >     _______________________________________________
        >     use-livecode mailing list
        >     use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
        >     Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
        >     http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
        >     
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > _______________________________________________
        > use-livecode mailing list
        > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
        > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
        > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
        
        
        _______________________________________________
        use-livecode mailing list
        use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
        Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
        http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
        
    
    
    
    _______________________________________________
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    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sun Oct 20 14:21:30 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 14:21:30 -0400
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
Message-ID: <1ae331d6ed03ff2b1844054c91e37f91@fourthworld.com>

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
> Bill: A few us at the monastery run 32bit applications that have 
> announced EOL
> due to Catalina? as are many programs: the market share does not 
> warrant ROI
> for developing 64bit? (including my old favorite DragThing ?)
> 
> Our tech team (supersavvy network/server admins) have set up Parallels 
> for one
> of us, and they say he will be able to run a 32bit astrology 
> application "forever" .
> 
> What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings 
> won?t allow
> booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my 
> option of
> having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.
> 
> Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just being 
> paranoid
> (totally justifiably)


If only there was an operating system designed by and for developers, 
supported by a vast ecosystem that values control, customization, and 
interoperability....

How unimaginibably cool would it be if such an OS were also the de facto 
standard of modern computing in all areas beyond the desktop, giving you 
the confidence that the system in your hands works just like the others 
you use in servers, IoT devices, and everything else in the 
ubiquitous-computing world you design for....

If only such a thing existed, you could still enjoy every other OS 
LiveCode runs on for testing, deployment, and support, or even for some 
end-user tasks like specialized kinds of media production. Consumer 
electronics appliances could be enjoyed for what they are, and all the 
while your bread-and-butter development system would always remain 
something that prioritizes your preferences over those of any single 
corporation....

#LivingTheDream

;)

-- 
   Richard Gaskin
   Fourth World Systems
   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
   ____________________________________________________________________
   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                
http://www.FourthWorld.com



From e.beugelaar at me.com  Sun Oct 20 15:01:46 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 21:01:46 +0200
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <1ae331d6ed03ff2b1844054c91e37f91@fourthworld.com>
References: <1ae331d6ed03ff2b1844054c91e37f91@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <B47908F3-F166-45CB-8934-750A0AE92057@me.com>

LOL!

Then this is what you are looking for -> 
https://dotnet.microsoft.com/
https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/iot

Argggg... Windows is all you need! __


?On 20/10/2019, 20:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
    > Bill: A few us at the monastery run 32bit applications that have 
    > announced EOL
    > due to Catalina? as are many programs: the market share does not 
    > warrant ROI
    > for developing 64bit? (including my old favorite DragThing ?)
    > 
    > Our tech team (supersavvy network/server admins) have set up Parallels 
    > for one
    > of us, and they say he will be able to run a 32bit astrology 
    > application "forever" .
    > 
    > What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings 
    > won?t allow
    > booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my 
    > option of
    > having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.
    > 
    > Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just being 
    > paranoid
    > (totally justifiably)
    
    
    If only there was an operating system designed by and for developers, 
    supported by a vast ecosystem that values control, customization, and 
    interoperability....
    
    How unimaginibably cool would it be if such an OS were also the de facto 
    standard of modern computing in all areas beyond the desktop, giving you 
    the confidence that the system in your hands works just like the others 
    you use in servers, IoT devices, and everything else in the 
    ubiquitous-computing world you design for....
    
    If only such a thing existed, you could still enjoy every other OS 
    LiveCode runs on for testing, deployment, and support, or even for some 
    end-user tasks like specialized kinds of media production. Consumer 
    electronics appliances could be enjoyed for what they are, and all the 
    while your bread-and-butter development system would always remain 
    something that prioritizes your preferences over those of any single 
    corporation....
    
    #LivingTheDream
    
    ;)
    
    -- 
       Richard Gaskin
       Fourth World Systems
       Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
       ____________________________________________________________________
       Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                
    http://www.FourthWorld.com
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sun Oct 20 16:22:35 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 16:22:35 -0400
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
Message-ID: <9712ac0d649caf15da4a28bd63e9afa7@fourthworld.com>

I was thinking of something more penguin-flavored when I wrote:

    ...if such an OS were also the de facto standard of modern
    computing in all areas beyond the desktop...

Microsoft Windows owns the desktop.  There, both macOS and Linux are 
niche players.

But everywhere else, Linux has become the de facto standard of modern 
computing.

See also:

     ...all the while your bread-and-butter development system would 
always
     remain something that prioritizes your preferences over those of any
     single corporation....

#lulz
#ignoremeimjustafanboy

:)

-- 
   Richard Gaskin
   Fourth World Systems


Erik Beugelaar wrote:

> LOL!
> 
> Then this is what you are looking for ->
> https://dotnet.microsoft.com/
> https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/iot
> 
> Argggg... Windows is all you need! __
> 
> 
> ? On 20/10/2019, 20:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via
> use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>   Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
>   > Bill: A few us at the monastery run 32bit applications that have
>   > announced EOL
>   > due to Catalina? as are many programs: the market share does not
>   > warrant ROI
>   > for developing 64bit? (including my old favorite DragThing ?)
>   >
>   > Our tech team (supersavvy network/server admins) have set up 
> Parallels
>   > for one
>   > of us, and they say he will be able to run a 32bit astrology
>   > application "forever" .
>   >
>   > What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings
>   > won?t allow
>   > booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my
>   > option of
>   > having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.
>   >
>   > Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just 
> being
>   > paranoid
>   > (totally justifiably)
> 
> 
>   If only there was an operating system designed by and for developers,
>   supported by a vast ecosystem that values control, customization, and
>   interoperability....
> 
>   How unimaginibably cool would it be if such an OS were also the de 
> facto
>   standard of modern computing in all areas beyond the desktop, giving 
> you
>   the confidence that the system in your hands works just like the 
> others
>   you use in servers, IoT devices, and everything else in the
>   ubiquitous-computing world you design for....
> 
>   If only such a thing existed, you could still enjoy every other OS
>   LiveCode runs on for testing, deployment, and support, or even for 
> some
>   end-user tasks like specialized kinds of media production. Consumer
>   electronics appliances could be enjoyed for what they are, and all 
> the
>   while your bread-and-butter development system would always remain
>   something that prioritizes your preferences over those of any single
>   corporation....
> 
>   #LivingTheDream
> 
>   ;)
> 
>   --
>      Richard Gaskin
>      Fourth World Systems
>      Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the 
> Web
>      
> ____________________________________________________________________
>      Ambassador at FourthWorld.com
>      http://www.FourthWorld.com



From e.beugelaar at me.com  Sun Oct 20 16:43:17 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 22:43:17 +0200
Subject: ... in iOS 13....
In-Reply-To: <9712ac0d649caf15da4a28bd63e9afa7@fourthworld.com>
References: <9712ac0d649caf15da4a28bd63e9afa7@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <3CC2D882-2B69-4104-9E58-CF832FDFE150@me.com>

Yeah, I understand. Beyond the desktop and behind the scenes it's definitely Linux playing the piano.
I was joking about .NET... ;)

And when I look at my kept ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64 and an ATARI XL and the way I programmed my sprites etc. compared to the modern tools I am using nowadays, I am still surprised everyday how fast it's going... and how fast you get old :) 

Cheers, Erik


?On 20/10/2019, 22:23, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    I was thinking of something more penguin-flavored when I wrote:
    
        ...if such an OS were also the de facto standard of modern
        computing in all areas beyond the desktop...
    
    Microsoft Windows owns the desktop.  There, both macOS and Linux are 
    niche players.
    
    But everywhere else, Linux has become the de facto standard of modern 
    computing.
    
    See also:
    
         ...all the while your bread-and-butter development system would 
    always
         remain something that prioritizes your preferences over those of any
         single corporation....
    
    #lulz
    #ignoremeimjustafanboy
    
    :)
    
    -- 
       Richard Gaskin
       Fourth World Systems
    
    
    Erik Beugelaar wrote:
    
    > LOL!
    > 
    > Then this is what you are looking for ->
    > https://dotnet.microsoft.com/
    > https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/iot
    > 
    > Argggg... Windows is all you need! __
    > 
    > 
    > ? On 20/10/2019, 20:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via
    > use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    > 
    >   Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
    >   > Bill: A few us at the monastery run 32bit applications that have
    >   > announced EOL
    >   > due to Catalina? as are many programs: the market share does not
    >   > warrant ROI
    >   > for developing 64bit? (including my old favorite DragThing ?)
    >   >
    >   > Our tech team (supersavvy network/server admins) have set up 
    > Parallels
    >   > for one
    >   > of us, and they say he will be able to run a 32bit astrology
    >   > application "forever" .
    >   >
    >   > What my worry is, is that perhaps Catalina?s new security settings
    >   > won?t allow
    >   > booting from an external drive. That would completely eliminate my
    >   > option of
    >   > having a 32 bit OS option for running older 32 bit software.
    >   >
    >   > Anybody have any info relevant to this issue? Or perhaps I?m just 
    > being
    >   > paranoid
    >   > (totally justifiably)
    > 
    > 
    >   If only there was an operating system designed by and for developers,
    >   supported by a vast ecosystem that values control, customization, and
    >   interoperability....
    > 
    >   How unimaginibably cool would it be if such an OS were also the de 
    > facto
    >   standard of modern computing in all areas beyond the desktop, giving 
    > you
    >   the confidence that the system in your hands works just like the 
    > others
    >   you use in servers, IoT devices, and everything else in the
    >   ubiquitous-computing world you design for....
    > 
    >   If only such a thing existed, you could still enjoy every other OS
    >   LiveCode runs on for testing, deployment, and support, or even for 
    > some
    >   end-user tasks like specialized kinds of media production. Consumer
    >   electronics appliances could be enjoyed for what they are, and all 
    > the
    >   while your bread-and-butter development system would always remain
    >   something that prioritizes your preferences over those of any single
    >   corporation....
    > 
    >   #LivingTheDream
    > 
    >   ;)
    > 
    >   --
    >      Richard Gaskin
    >      Fourth World Systems
    >      Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the 
    > Web
    >      
    > ____________________________________________________________________
    >      Ambassador at FourthWorld.com
    >      http://www.FourthWorld.com
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Mon Oct 21 10:49:55 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 09:49:55 -0500
Subject: mnemonic working on Windows in LC 9?
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG-TLFPMjL0Zg=gRW6fwHejYMASaudyVpCuP=neAWwheLA@mail.gmail.com>

Does using the mnemonic key to display a menu on Windows work for anybody
else in LC 9? I just did the following test and all I hear is a beep:

1. Launch LC 9 on Windows 10.
2. Press the ALT key. The letter represented by the mnemonic setting of
each menu in the Toolbar is underlined.
3. Press the letter of one of the menus (e.g. "F"). All I hear is a beep
when the File menu should appear.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From paul at smarttsoftware.co.uk  Mon Oct 21 10:56:00 2019
From: paul at smarttsoftware.co.uk (Paul Richards)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 14:56:00 +0000
Subject: mnemonic working on Windows in LC 9?
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG-TLFPMjL0Zg=gRW6fwHejYMASaudyVpCuP=neAWwheLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHg3tG-TLFPMjL0Zg=gRW6fwHejYMASaudyVpCuP=neAWwheLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AM4PR07MB309206F9261D6CBABC1251B2E2690@AM4PR07MB3092.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>

I don't get a beep, but can confirm I get the same result as you as in nothing happens. 

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> On Behalf Of Trevor DeVore via use-livecode
Sent: 21 October 2019 15:50
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Trevor DeVore <lists at mangomultimedia.com>
Subject: mnemonic working on Windows in LC 9?

Does using the mnemonic key to display a menu on Windows work for anybody else in LC 9? I just did the following test and all I hear is a beep:

1. Launch LC 9 on Windows 10.
2. Press the ALT key. The letter represented by the mnemonic setting of each menu in the Toolbar is underlined.
3. Press the letter of one of the menus (e.g. "F"). All I hear is a beep when the File menu should appear.

--
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From paul at researchware.com  Mon Oct 21 10:56:38 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 10:56:38 -0400
Subject: mnemonic working on Windows in LC 9?
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG-TLFPMjL0Zg=gRW6fwHejYMASaudyVpCuP=neAWwheLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHg3tG-TLFPMjL0Zg=gRW6fwHejYMASaudyVpCuP=neAWwheLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <794b698c-42b4-f942-ea84-8fc0bde00497@researchware.com>

On 10/21/2019 10:49 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> Does using the mnemonic key to display a menu on Windows work for anybody
> else in LC 9? I just did the following test and all I hear is a beep:
>
> 1. Launch LC 9 on Windows 10.
> 2. Press the ALT key. The letter represented by the mnemonic setting of
> each menu in the Toolbar is underlined.
> 3. Press the letter of one of the menus (e.g. "F"). All I hear is a beep
> when the File menu should appear.
>
LC905 stable under WIndows 10 - same here. Pressing ALT shows the 
underlines menu letters in the menubar, but nothing but a beep.

Please let me know the bug number when you file one, as I'd like to 
follow it.



From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Mon Oct 21 11:26:30 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 10:26:30 -0500
Subject: mnemonic working on Windows in LC 9?
In-Reply-To: <794b698c-42b4-f942-ea84-8fc0bde00497@researchware.com>
References: <CAHg3tG-TLFPMjL0Zg=gRW6fwHejYMASaudyVpCuP=neAWwheLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <794b698c-42b4-f942-ea84-8fc0bde00497@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG8QAtOS1K95Hg4iSRFCcgc8fotRSXwcJWNzC-O8G0fZTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 9:58 AM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 10/21/2019 10:49 AM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> > Does using the mnemonic key to display a menu on Windows work for anybody
> > else in LC 9? I just did the following test and all I hear is a beep:
> >
> ...>
> LC905 stable under WIndows 10 - same here. Pressing ALT shows the
> underlines menu letters in the menubar, but nothing but a beep.
>
> Please let me know the bug number when you file one, as I'd like to
> follow it.


Thanks for testing Paul and Paul. Here is the bug report:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22420

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From panos.merakos at livecode.com  Mon Oct 21 11:39:14 2019
From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 18:39:14 +0300
Subject: [ANN] This Week in LiveCode 199
Message-ID: <CA+JfEq91M8+G3_7JzfP9XSBT9jwjJrQoGJMEbKfYibWpaRnBcA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Read about new developments in LiveCode open source and the open source
community in today's edition of the "This Week in LiveCode" newsletter!

        Read issue #199 here: http://bit.ly/2MAbVEe

This is a weekly newsletter about LiveCode, focussing on what's been
going on in and around the open source project. New issues will be
released weekly on Mondays. We have a dedicated mailing list that will
deliver each issue directly to you e-mail, so you don't miss any!

If you have anything you'd like mentioned (a project, a discussion
somewhere, an upcoming event) then please get in touch.



-- 
Panagiotis Merakos <panos.merakos at livecode.com>
LiveCode Software Developer

Everyone Can Create Apps <https://livecode.com>


From dochawk at gmail.com  Mon Oct 21 12:35:14 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 09:35:14 -0700
Subject: Merge PDF
In-Reply-To: <356AEE1B-BAA9-4162-86F9-C5C4B705BFE7@hyperhh.de>
References: <356AEE1B-BAA9-4162-86F9-C5C4B705BFE7@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <D1E9A7AB-8DB7-498B-B940-4C25AD85A178@gmail.com>


On Oct 17, 2019, at 12:04 PM, hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> I'll publish this weekend on SampleStacks a pdfLib (split and merge)
> based on a JS library (via a browser widget). Already 95% are done.

Did it publish?

And will this only be for server?

Do I sound anxious?

:)


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 12:39:09 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 09:39:09 -0700
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
Message-ID: <2fc7a7fa-f639-ad83-f629-1235d08969a7@fourthworld.com>

Apparently v9 added support for Amazon's S3, but I can't find 
documentation on it.

I see mention of it in the Release Notes for v9 and later, e.g.:

    Amazon Web Services (AWS) Library
    The new Amazon Web Services library includes support for Amazon
    Simple Storage Service (S3). You can use S3 to provide cloud
    storage for your app. Read more here

   https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/whats-new/release-notes/

Unfortunately, the "Read more here" link goes to Amazon AWS, where they 
provide no documentation on using their service with LiveCode.

I tried looking in the LC Dictionary, but searching for "aws" and "s3" 
yield nothing.

Clues?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 12:49:39 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 09:49:39 -0700
Subject: Merge PDF
In-Reply-To: <D1E9A7AB-8DB7-498B-B940-4C25AD85A178@gmail.com>
References: <D1E9A7AB-8DB7-498B-B940-4C25AD85A178@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2d26b95d-dff3-3dd7-220b-15f791e8b35d@fourthworld.com>

doc hawk wrote:
 > On Oct 17, 2019, at 12:04 PM, hh wrote:
 >> I'll publish this weekend on SampleStacks a pdfLib (split and merge)
 >> based on a JS library (via a browser widget). Already 95% are done.
 >
 > Did it publish?
 >
 > And will this only be for server?

If it's dependent on a browser widget, LC Server would be the one 
platform least likely to be supported, as browsers run client-side and 
servers very rarely even have any GUI support available.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From mkoob at rogers.com  Mon Oct 21 13:20:00 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:20:00 -0400
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <2fc7a7fa-f639-ad83-f629-1235d08969a7@fourthworld.com>
References: <2fc7a7fa-f639-ad83-f629-1235d08969a7@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <AA8F5544-DAF8-4CC9-83EF-0B827DD3472D@rogers.com>

Hi Richard

I have a test stack got most of the commands, functions and messages uploaded to a bug report. 
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22383

I have been meaning to clean it up a bit and post it somewhere for users. 

Martin


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 21, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Apparently v9 added support for Amazon's S3, but I can't find documentation on it.
> 
> I see mention of it in the Release Notes for v9 and later, e.g.:
> 
>   Amazon Web Services (AWS) Library
>   The new Amazon Web Services library includes support for Amazon
>   Simple Storage Service (S3). You can use S3 to provide cloud
>   storage for your app. Read more here
> 
>  https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/whats-new/release-notes/
> 
> Unfortunately, the "Read more here" link goes to Amazon AWS, where they provide no documentation on using their service with LiveCode.
> 
> I tried looking in the LC Dictionary, but searching for "aws" and "s3" yield nothing.
> 
> Clues?
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 13:32:22 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 10:32:22 -0700
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <AA8F5544-DAF8-4CC9-83EF-0B827DD3472D@rogers.com>
References: <AA8F5544-DAF8-4CC9-83EF-0B827DD3472D@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <9aee69a9-8fd3-d942-395e-a98b1bce7bb3@fourthworld.com>

Thanks, Martin.  That's also very handy, but how did you learn the 
syntax?  Where is this library documented?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems


Martin Koob wrote:
> Hi Richard
> 
> I have a test stack got most of the commands, functions and messages uploaded to a bug report. 
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22383
> 
> I have been meaning to clean it up a bit and post it somewhere for users. 
> 
> Martin
> 
>> On Oct 21, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Apparently v9 added support for Amazon's S3, but I can't find documentation on it.
>> 
>> I see mention of it in the Release Notes for v9 and later, e.g.:
>> 
>>   Amazon Web Services (AWS) Library
>>   The new Amazon Web Services library includes support for Amazon
>>   Simple Storage Service (S3). You can use S3 to provide cloud
>>   storage for your app. Read more here
>> 
>>  https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/whats-new/release-notes/
>> 
>> Unfortunately, the "Read more here" link goes to Amazon AWS, where they provide no documentation on using their service with LiveCode.
>> 
>> I tried looking in the LC Dictionary, but searching for "aws" and "s3" yield nothing.
>> 
>> Clues?




From brian at milby7.com  Mon Oct 21 13:43:36 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:43:36 -0400
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <9aee69a9-8fd3-d942-395e-a98b1bce7bb3@fourthworld.com>
References: <AA8F5544-DAF8-4CC9-83EF-0B827DD3472D@rogers.com>
 <9aee69a9-8fd3-d942-395e-a98b1bce7bb3@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <9fefd70b-5c37-48d9-a91c-dd05f1e1630f@Spark>

I see the commands documented in the dictionary (9.5 Business, not sure about other editions).

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 21, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> Thanks, Martin. That's also very handy, but how did you learn the
> syntax? Where is this library documented?
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
>
>
> Martin Koob wrote:
> > Hi Richard
> >
> > I have a test stack got most of the commands, functions and messages uploaded to a bug report.
> > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22383
> >
> > I have been meaning to clean it up a bit and post it somewhere for users.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > > On Oct 21, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Apparently v9 added support for Amazon's S3, but I can't find documentation on it.
> > >
> > > I see mention of it in the Release Notes for v9 and later, e.g.:
> > >
> > > Amazon Web Services (AWS) Library
> > > The new Amazon Web Services library includes support for Amazon
> > > Simple Storage Service (S3). You can use S3 to provide cloud
> > > storage for your app. Read more here
> > >
> > > https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/whats-new/release-notes/
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the "Read more here" link goes to Amazon AWS, where they provide no documentation on using their service with LiveCode.
> > >
> > > I tried looking in the LC Dictionary, but searching for "aws" and "s3" yield nothing.
> > >
> > > Clues?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 21 13:55:34 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 19:55:34 +0200
Subject: Merge PDF
Message-ID: <7ADD6B48-5033-4369-8780-675AE73752F0@hyperhh.de>

It is dependant on using JS from LC, by that it is dependant
on a browser widget.

I had it ready yesterday for Mac and tried a full day to work
around the deficiencies of the browser widget on linux and win
but had no success, sorry.

The stack will be published as "PDF-Tools" (Merge/Mix/Split)
in a few minutes.



From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Mon Oct 21 14:11:21 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:11:21 -0500
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG8_w9Kx90y98BQ4agDEHu4O0GOBzBJNmTawra2sG_h4KQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am looking for input from people who are using `the effective rect of
stack` and the values it reports on Windows. I have some code that uses the
effective rect of a group to determine if the stack is still on the screen
after the user moves the stack or when restoring window positions when an
app relaunches.

On Windows 10 I just noticed that `the effective rect of stack` includes
the drop shadow that appears along the left, bottom, and right of a window
on Windows 10. For my use case including the shadows in the `effective rect
of stack` serves no value. I'm wondering if someone has a use case where it
is helpful to have the drop shadow included in `the effective rect`?

Here is how you can check behavior if you are interested:

EXPECTED RESULT: The effective rect of a stack on Windows would return the
rect of the stack that includes stack borders and title bar.

OBSERVED RESULT: The effective rect includes the drop shadow of the window
in the rect.

RECIPE:
1. Create a new stack
2. Set the topleft of the stack to 0,0
3. `put the effective rect of this stack`. The left of the rect will be a
negative value.
4. `set the effective topleft of this stack to 0,0`. The left of the stack
will be offset by the negative value from (3).

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 14:11:51 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 11:11:51 -0700
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <9fefd70b-5c37-48d9-a91c-dd05f1e1630f@Spark>
References: <9fefd70b-5c37-48d9-a91c-dd05f1e1630f@Spark>
Message-ID: <1749c671-925f-6dfc-0588-77ae76f7385f@fourthworld.com>

Brian Milby wrote:

 > On Oct 21, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >> Where is this library documented?
 >
 > I see the commands documented in the dictionary (9.5 Business, not
 > sure about other editions).

Thanks, Brian.  I use LC mostly on Linux, so although I have an Indy 
license and the S3 lib is available in the Indy edition, LC for Linux 
hasn't had a functional browser object for years (nor video/audio player 
and a few other platform-parity features), and since the docs now 
require a browser I have to use the one at the web site, which is 
apparently limited to the Community edition language tokens. :(

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 21 14:14:07 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:14:07 +0200
Subject: PDF-Tools
Message-ID: <0F71B93F-0559-491F-9F2C-26E3ACDBF044@hyperhh.de>

PDF-Tools_v109 (MERGE/MIX/SPLIT)

Due to deficiencies of the browser widget on win and linux we have the
first time that a JS-library runs in a browser widget on Mac only.
I tried to work around for win and linux without success, sorry.

Download PDF-Tools from SampleStacks or
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/951/

PDF-Tools is a helper (and GUI) to the new javascipt library PDF-lib.js
by Andrew Dillon (see https://github.com/Hopding/pdf-lib MIT-licensed).
The library is already part of the stack (so you can use it offline).

__ Input up to three remote or local URLs.
__ Input ranges or mixtures using the following syntax:
__   MERGE: (x to y step z | ?all | ?even | ?odd ) of pdfN [repeat m] 
__     Takes pages x=start, y=stop, z=step, repeat m from pdf pdfN.
__   SPLIT: (x to y step z | ?all | ?even | ?odd ) [repeat m] > n
__     Takes pages x=start, y=stop, z=step, repeat m from pdf pdfN.
__   MIX: m of pdfN
__     Takes m=num pages from pdf pdfN. Items are repeated cyclically.
__ Optionally do Autosave and/or
__   add MetaData, a header, footer and pageNums to the resulting PDFs.
__ Special Example: Print two-sided (on front and back)
__   using SPLIT with  -odd>1, even>1  as ranges.




From paul at researchware.com  Mon Oct 21 14:30:56 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 14:30:56 -0400
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG8_w9Kx90y98BQ4agDEHu4O0GOBzBJNmTawra2sG_h4KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHg3tG8_w9Kx90y98BQ4agDEHu4O0GOBzBJNmTawra2sG_h4KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5a0e6dfe-9058-6fcc-f829-8683db0d10c4@researchware.com>

On 10/21/2019 2:11 PM, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote:
> I am looking for input from people who are using `the effective rect of
> stack` and the values it reports on Windows. I have some code that uses the
> effective rect of a group to determine if the stack is still on the screen
> after the user moves the stack or when restoring window positions when an
> app relaunches.
>
> On Windows 10 I just noticed that `the effective rect of stack` includes
> the drop shadow that appears along the left, bottom, and right of a window
> on Windows 10. For my use case including the shadows in the `effective rect
> of stack` serves no value. I'm wondering if someone has a use case where it
> is helpful to have the drop shadow included in `the effective rect`?
>
> Here is how you can check behavior if you are interested:
>
> EXPECTED RESULT: The effective rect of a stack on Windows would return the
> rect of the stack that includes stack borders and title bar.
>
> OBSERVED RESULT: The effective rect includes the drop shadow of the window
> in the rect.
>
> RECIPE:
> 1. Create a new stack
> 2. Set the topleft of the stack to 0,0
> 3. `put the effective rect of this stack`. The left of the rect will be a
> negative value.
> 4. `set the effective topleft of this stack to 0,0`. The left of the stack
> will be offset by the negative value from (3).

Add your name to this bug: 
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16305

Mark Waddigham chimed in at one point that the Windows API returns the 
8px border width under Windows 10 - the 1px visible border and a 7px 
"touch area" is apparently how Microsoft views it, so LC's position is 
that this is sort of an OS vendor issue rather than their.

I disagree of course.





From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Oct 21 14:36:55 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 11:36:55 -0700
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <1749c671-925f-6dfc-0588-77ae76f7385f@fourthworld.com>
References: <9fefd70b-5c37-48d9-a91c-dd05f1e1630f@Spark>
 <1749c671-925f-6dfc-0588-77ae76f7385f@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <0c674da0-856a-28b7-1f10-44465e69989c@sonic.net>

On 10/21/19 11:11 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Brian Milby wrote:
> 
>  > On Oct 21, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>  >> Where is this library documented?
>  >
>  > I see the commands documented in the dictionary (9.5 Business, not
>  > sure about other editions).
> 
> Thanks, Brian.? I use LC mostly on Linux, so although I have an Indy 
> license and the S3 lib is available in the Indy edition, LC for Linux 
> hasn't had a functional browser object for years (nor video/audio player 
> and a few other platform-parity features), and since the docs now 
> require a browser I have to use the one at the web site, which is 
> apparently limited to the Community edition language tokens. :(
> 

http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/825/TinyDictionary

hint: you can set the 4WDevo 'Dictionary' button to invoke 
tinyDictionary and then always have the proper up-to-date dictionary 
available.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Mon Oct 21 14:38:23 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:38:23 -0500
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <1749c671-925f-6dfc-0588-77ae76f7385f@fourthworld.com>
References: <9fefd70b-5c37-48d9-a91c-dd05f1e1630f@Spark>
 <1749c671-925f-6dfc-0588-77ae76f7385f@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <7f20281a-4342-efbe-0842-ff6ec0834f79@hyperactivesw.com>

On 10/21/19 1:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Brian Milby wrote:
> 
>  > On Oct 21, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>  >> Where is this library documented?
>  >
>  > I see the commands documented in the dictionary (9.5 Business, not
>  > sure about other editions).
> 
> Thanks, Brian.? I use LC mostly on Linux, so although I have an Indy 
> license and the S3 lib is available in the Indy edition, LC for Linux 
> hasn't had a functional browser object for years (nor video/audio player 
> and a few other platform-parity features), and since the docs now 
> require a browser I have to use the one at the web site, which is 
> apparently limited to the Community edition language tokens. :(
> 

Try Brian's copy of the dictionary here:
https://milby.us/lc/docs/api.html

And search for "Amazon" or "Amazon Web Services"


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com




From lists at mangomultimedia.com  Mon Oct 21 14:51:10 2019
From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:51:10 -0500
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <5a0e6dfe-9058-6fcc-f829-8683db0d10c4@researchware.com>
References: <CAHg3tG8_w9Kx90y98BQ4agDEHu4O0GOBzBJNmTawra2sG_h4KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5a0e6dfe-9058-6fcc-f829-8683db0d10c4@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <CAHg3tG9bbxoYGoUrjKF3tv9smeK5bXE7tZ+nJOn4XxOFRGddOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:31 PM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Add your name to this bug:
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16305
>
> Mark Waddigham chimed in at one point that the Windows API returns the
> 8px border width under Windows 10 - the 1px visible border and a 7px
> "touch area" is apparently how Microsoft views it, so LC's position is
> that this is sort of an OS vendor issue rather than their.
>
> I disagree of course.
>

I agree with your disagreement. I've added my 2 cents.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 15:00:40 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:00:40 -0700
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <5a0e6dfe-9058-6fcc-f829-8683db0d10c4@researchware.com>
References: <5a0e6dfe-9058-6fcc-f829-8683db0d10c4@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <77a1626c-d16c-e14c-df50-50c1822ef1d6@fourthworld.com>

Paul Dupuis wrote:

> Add your name to this bug: 
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16305
> 
> Mark Waddigham chimed in at one point that the Windows API returns the 
> 8px border width under Windows 10 - the 1px visible border and a 7px 
> "touch area" is apparently how Microsoft views it, so LC's position is 
> that this is sort of an OS vendor issue rather than their.
> 
> I disagree of course.

As do I. I've added to that report an argument in favor of correcting 
for this in the engine.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 15:02:45 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:02:45 -0700
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <0c674da0-856a-28b7-1f10-44465e69989c@sonic.net>
References: <0c674da0-856a-28b7-1f10-44465e69989c@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <ae325197-cfdc-a381-99d4-00c662cb490b@fourthworld.com>

Mark Wieder wrote:
> On 10/21/19 11:11 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Brian Milby wrote:
>> 
>>  > On Oct 21, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>  >> Where is this library documented?
>>  >
>>  > I see the commands documented in the dictionary (9.5 Business, not
>>  > sure about other editions).
>> 
>> Thanks, Brian.  I use LC mostly on Linux, so although I have an Indy 
>> license and the S3 lib is available in the Indy edition, LC for Linux 
>> hasn't had a functional browser object for years (nor video/audio player 
>> and a few other platform-parity features), and since the docs now 
>> require a browser I have to use the one at the web site, which is 
>> apparently limited to the Community edition language tokens. :(
>> 
> 
> http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/825/TinyDictionary
> 
> hint: you can set the 4WDevo 'Dictionary' button to invoke 
> tinyDictionary and then always have the proper up-to-date dictionary 
> available.

That 4wDevo sounds very handy! :)

But as for the content in the many dictionaries floating around, do they 
include LC's proprietary Indy and Business content along with the 
GPL-governed content from the Community Edition?

Are the docs in the proprietary editions handled under separate license 
from the rest of the package?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From brahma at hindu.org  Mon Oct 21 15:08:30 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 19:08:30 +0000
Subject: Catalina and Livecode
Message-ID: <7937BF05-5D3F-4F7F-A559-3E30DC06F7D4@hindu.org>

First I want to give my appreciation for the hard work at  HQ keeping up with Apple.

In fact Mark  W. maybe ahead of the game!

As mentioned, I had to upgrade (against my better wishes) to Catalina, because Adobe was giving us trouble on Mojave.

Surprising Livecode is working! and every building mobile standalones. Even prompted to install new JAVA and build in Android still works.

Any caveats, we should be aware of? I'll be sure not to update xCode?.

BR



From brian at milby7.com  Mon Oct 21 15:09:50 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:09:50 -0400
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <ae325197-cfdc-a381-99d4-00c662cb490b@fourthworld.com>
References: <0c674da0-856a-28b7-1f10-44465e69989c@sonic.net>
 <ae325197-cfdc-a381-99d4-00c662cb490b@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <830cafa8-6a3e-473a-8dba-4a6ac1e78dfd@Spark>

TinyDictionary uses the data from the local install.
Docs for the business features are included in the community edition as far as I know.
The site that I have comes from a stack that exports the files from an install into a self-contained directory. ?I do need to update it.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 21, 2019, 3:04 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> Mark Wieder wrote:
> > On 10/21/19 11:11 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> > > Brian Milby wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Oct 21, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> > > > > Where is this library documented?
> > > >
> > > > I see the commands documented in the dictionary (9.5 Business, not
> > > > sure about other editions).
> > >
> > > Thanks, Brian. I use LC mostly on Linux, so although I have an Indy
> > > license and the S3 lib is available in the Indy edition, LC for Linux
> > > hasn't had a functional browser object for years (nor video/audio player
> > > and a few other platform-parity features), and since the docs now
> > > require a browser I have to use the one at the web site, which is
> > > apparently limited to the Community edition language tokens. :(
> > >
> >
> > http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/825/TinyDictionary
> >
> > hint: you can set the 4WDevo 'Dictionary' button to invoke
> > tinyDictionary and then always have the proper up-to-date dictionary
> > available.
>
> That 4wDevo sounds very handy! :)
>
> But as for the content in the many dictionaries floating around, do they
> include LC's proprietary Indy and Business content along with the
> GPL-governed content from the Community Edition?
>
> Are the docs in the proprietary editions handled under separate license
> from the rest of the package?
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 15:09:50 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:09:50 -0700
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <7f20281a-4342-efbe-0842-ff6ec0834f79@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <7f20281a-4342-efbe-0842-ff6ec0834f79@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <2ce80565-ae09-c474-bfde-d8a74a9e55df@fourthworld.com>

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 10/21/19 1:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Brian Milby wrote:
>> 
>>  > On Oct 21, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>  >> Where is this library documented?
>>  >
>>  > I see the commands documented in the dictionary (9.5 Business, not
>>  > sure about other editions).
>> 
>> Thanks, Brian.  I use LC mostly on Linux, so although I have an Indy 
>> license and the S3 lib is available in the Indy edition, LC for Linux 
>> hasn't had a functional browser object for years (nor video/audio player 
>> and a few other platform-parity features), and since the docs now 
>> require a browser I have to use the one at the web site, which is 
>> apparently limited to the Community edition language tokens. :(
>> 
> 
> Try Brian's copy of the dictionary here:
> https://milby.us/lc/docs/api.html
> 
> And search for "Amazon" or "Amazon Web Services"

Thanks - it's there.  Very helpful, but...

Why does our community have so many dictionaries?

And since that one appears functionally identical to LC's own, why can't 
we just have LC's main canonical content kept up to date?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From brian at milby7.com  Mon Oct 21 15:16:57 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:16:57 -0400
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <2ce80565-ae09-c474-bfde-d8a74a9e55df@fourthworld.com>
References: <7f20281a-4342-efbe-0842-ff6ec0834f79@hyperactivesw.com>
 <2ce80565-ae09-c474-bfde-d8a74a9e55df@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <6ee9fb0e-454d-42ba-9256-91cbbbb961fd@Spark>

TinyDictionary is a streamlined interface to the dictionary data.
My site allow easy access to the dictionary on my iPad (built before I saw Dash) - useful when not near a computer.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 21, 2019, 3:11 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
> > On 10/21/19 1:11 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> > > Brian Milby wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Oct 21, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> > > > > Where is this library documented?
> > > >
> > > > I see the commands documented in the dictionary (9.5 Business, not
> > > > sure about other editions).
> > >
> > > Thanks, Brian. I use LC mostly on Linux, so although I have an Indy
> > > license and the S3 lib is available in the Indy edition, LC for Linux
> > > hasn't had a functional browser object for years (nor video/audio player
> > > and a few other platform-parity features), and since the docs now
> > > require a browser I have to use the one at the web site, which is
> > > apparently limited to the Community edition language tokens. :(
> > >
> >
> > Try Brian's copy of the dictionary here:
> > https://milby.us/lc/docs/api.html
> >
> > And search for "Amazon" or "Amazon Web Services"
>
> Thanks - it's there. Very helpful, but...
>
> Why does our community have so many dictionaries?
>
> And since that one appears functionally identical to LC's own, why can't
> we just have LC's main canonical content kept up to date?
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 15:20:11 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:20:11 -0700
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <830cafa8-6a3e-473a-8dba-4a6ac1e78dfd@Spark>
References: <830cafa8-6a3e-473a-8dba-4a6ac1e78dfd@Spark>
Message-ID: <83788600-a2ff-21f0-43e7-243d441cb825@fourthworld.com>

Brian Milby wrote:

 > Docs for the business features are included in the community edition
 > as far as I know.

This is more of a question for LC Ltd than you, but if that's the case 
why are the AWS features missing from LC's canonical dictionary?


 > The site that I have comes from a stack that exports the files from an
 > install into a self-contained directory.  I do need to update it.

Help me understand: what does your copy do that the canonical site 
doesn't do?

I see no serious harm in it, but replicated content fragments audiences, 
thereby fragmenting the time and attention needed to keep docs up to date.

Is there a change we should make in LC's canonical Dictionary 
maintenance process to allow community members to put their time into 
helping to keep it up to date?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 15:22:12 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:22:12 -0700
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <6ee9fb0e-454d-42ba-9256-91cbbbb961fd@Spark>
References: <6ee9fb0e-454d-42ba-9256-91cbbbb961fd@Spark>
Message-ID: <355e94b7-2501-c367-d442-b78ee4599432@fourthworld.com>

Brian Milby wrote:

 > My site allow easy access to the dictionary on my iPad (built before I
 > saw Dash) - useful when not near a computer.

Thanks.

What's broken with LC's canonical copy of the Dictionary that prevents 
it from rendering well on an iPad?

Can your fix be submitted as a pull request to fix the master?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From mkoob at rogers.com  Mon Oct 21 15:28:20 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:28:20 -0400
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <9aee69a9-8fd3-d942-395e-a98b1bce7bb3@fourthworld.com>
References: <AA8F5544-DAF8-4CC9-83EF-0B827DD3472D@rogers.com>
 <9aee69a9-8fd3-d942-395e-a98b1bce7bb3@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <9C857F2B-E330-433F-959E-684BCCD4D478@rogers.com>

Hi Richard

I had been using Monte?s mergAWS for an application then the new AWS S3 commands were incorporated into LiveCode 9. So I needed to make some changes to transition.  I was using LC 9.0.4. I am sure I was using the dictionary in the IDE.  I am not at my Mac now. Try searching S3. 

Martin

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 21, 2019, at 1:32 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Martin.  That's also very handy, but how did you learn the syntax?  Where is this library documented?
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> 
> 
> Martin Koob wrote:
>> Hi Richard
>> I have a test stack got most of the commands, functions and messages uploaded to a bug report. https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22383
>> I have been meaning to clean it up a bit and post it somewhere for users. Martin
>>> On Oct 21, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> Apparently v9 added support for Amazon's S3, but I can't find documentation on it.
>>> I see mention of it in the Release Notes for v9 and later, e.g.:
>>>  Amazon Web Services (AWS) Library
>>>  The new Amazon Web Services library includes support for Amazon
>>>  Simple Storage Service (S3). You can use S3 to provide cloud
>>>  storage for your app. Read more here
>>> https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/whats-new/release-notes/
>>> Unfortunately, the "Read more here" link goes to Amazon AWS, where they provide no documentation on using their service with LiveCode.
>>> I tried looking in the LC Dictionary, but searching for "aws" and "s3" yield nothing.
>>> Clues?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jjs at krutt.org  Mon Oct 21 16:07:20 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:07:20 +0200
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <9C857F2B-E330-433F-959E-684BCCD4D478@rogers.com>
References: <AA8F5544-DAF8-4CC9-83EF-0B827DD3472D@rogers.com>
 <9aee69a9-8fd3-d942-395e-a98b1bce7bb3@fourthworld.com>
 <9C857F2B-E330-433F-959E-684BCCD4D478@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <b762e348-c03e-214e-63aa-ea03a137b0b5@krutt.org>

i can see it in the dictionary 950 Indy on windows

Op 21-10-2019 om 21:28 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
> Hi Richard
>
> I had been using Monte?s mergAWS for an application then the new AWS S3 commands were incorporated into LiveCode 9. So I needed to make some changes to transition.  I was using LC 9.0.4. I am sure I was using the dictionary in the IDE.  I am not at my Mac now. Try searching S3.
>
> Martin
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 21, 2019, at 1:32 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Martin.  That's also very handy, but how did you learn the syntax?  Where is this library documented?
>>
>> -- 
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
>>
>>
>> Martin Koob wrote:
>>> Hi Richard
>>> I have a test stack got most of the commands, functions and messages uploaded to a bug report. https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22383
>>> I have been meaning to clean it up a bit and post it somewhere for users. Martin
>>>> On Oct 21, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> Apparently v9 added support for Amazon's S3, but I can't find documentation on it.
>>>> I see mention of it in the Release Notes for v9 and later, e.g.:
>>>>   Amazon Web Services (AWS) Library
>>>>   The new Amazon Web Services library includes support for Amazon
>>>>   Simple Storage Service (S3). You can use S3 to provide cloud
>>>>   storage for your app. Read more here
>>>> https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/whats-new/release-notes/
>>>> Unfortunately, the "Read more here" link goes to Amazon AWS, where they provide no documentation on using their service with LiveCode.
>>>> I tried looking in the LC Dictionary, but searching for "aws" and "s3" yield nothing.
>>>> Clues?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From paul at researchware.com  Mon Oct 21 16:11:01 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 16:11:01 -0400
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <5a0e6dfe-9058-6fcc-f829-8683db0d10c4@researchware.com>
References: <CAHg3tG8_w9Kx90y98BQ4agDEHu4O0GOBzBJNmTawra2sG_h4KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5a0e6dfe-9058-6fcc-f829-8683db0d10c4@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <d7580b1f-7e7b-c94e-26c2-639262d05208@researchware.com>

Thank your Richard and Trevor.

When the 'effective rect' of a stack was introduced to provide the outer 
boundaries of a stack, along with the effective working screenRects(s), 
I rewrote all my complicated windows management code (and some of your 
clever tricks for Windows weirdness, Richard), to use simple elegant 
code that worked awesomely on all OSX versions and every Windows version 
until I tried it under Windows 10 and ...

Not one of my happier days :-(




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 21 16:41:24 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:41:24 -0700
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <d7580b1f-7e7b-c94e-26c2-639262d05208@researchware.com>
References: <d7580b1f-7e7b-c94e-26c2-639262d05208@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <032f5527-d6b8-34b2-c4d9-f7dd53e62180@fourthworld.com>

Paul Dupuis wrote:

 > When the 'effective rect' of a stack was introduced to provide the
 > outer boundaries of a stack, along with the effective working
 > screenRects(s), I rewrote all my complicated windows management code
 > (and some of your clever tricks for Windows weirdness, Richard), to
 > use simple elegant code that worked awesomely on all OSX versions and
 > every Windows version until I tried it under Windows 10 and ...
 >
 > Not one of my happier days :-(

But at least it's a simpler workaround these day.

In the olden days the border width of a window in Windows was 
user-settable, so the only way to get that (and a few other relevant 
settings) was to obtain metrics from the Windows registry.

With Win10, if I read Mark Waddingham's comment correctly, the border 
can only be 1px, so all those old registry calls can safely go away with 
just simple hard-wired arithmetic.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct 21 16:50:57 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:50:57 +0000
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG8_w9Kx90y98BQ4agDEHu4O0GOBzBJNmTawra2sG_h4KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHg3tG8_w9Kx90y98BQ4agDEHu4O0GOBzBJNmTawra2sG_h4KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C54A1FB8-EADD-49B4-9EDD-1A5D497A8C7E@iotecdigital.com>

I have fits with using these rects. It ought to be as simple as saving the rect of a stack when closing it, and restoring it when opening it, regardless of what monitor is in effect. 

My problem comes in when I run the stack in a 1080p monitor at work, sleep it then go into the field, now Im on a retina display! Stack is now half obscured on the right and top. 

I've tried a number of things but I can't seem to get it to work consistently. I'm just going to say that this is the issue with any pixel based coordinate system. 

I'll probably write something that converts to screen percentages instead of pixels. That is really the way to do this. 

Bob S


> On Oct 21, 2019, at 11:11 , Trevor DeVore via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I am looking for input from people who are using `the effective rect of
> stack` and the values it reports on Windows. I have some code that uses the
> effective rect of a group to determine if the stack is still on the screen
> after the user moves the stack or when restoring window positions when an
> app relaunches.
> 
> On Windows 10 I just noticed that `the effective rect of stack` includes
> the drop shadow that appears along the left, bottom, and right of a window
> on Windows 10. For my use case including the shadows in the `effective rect
> of stack` serves no value. I'm wondering if someone has a use case where it
> is helpful to have the drop shadow included in `the effective rect`?
> 
> Here is how you can check behavior if you are interested:
> 
> EXPECTED RESULT: The effective rect of a stack on Windows would return the
> rect of the stack that includes stack borders and title bar.
> 
> OBSERVED RESULT: The effective rect includes the drop shadow of the window
> in the rect.
> 
> RECIPE:
> 1. Create a new stack
> 2. Set the topleft of the stack to 0,0
> 3. `put the effective rect of this stack`. The left of the rect will be a
> negative value.
> 4. `set the effective topleft of this stack to 0,0`. The left of the stack
> will be offset by the negative value from (3).
> 
> -- 
> Trevor DeVore
> ScreenSteps
> www.screensteps.com




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct 21 16:53:12 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:53:12 +0000
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <CAHg3tG9bbxoYGoUrjKF3tv9smeK5bXE7tZ+nJOn4XxOFRGddOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHg3tG8_w9Kx90y98BQ4agDEHu4O0GOBzBJNmTawra2sG_h4KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5a0e6dfe-9058-6fcc-f829-8683db0d10c4@researchware.com>
 <CAHg3tG9bbxoYGoUrjKF3tv9smeK5bXE7tZ+nJOn4XxOFRGddOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5054D19F-E015-44B7-9ADC-D47D07E1DED4@iotecdigital.com>

As have I. 

Bob S


> On Oct 21, 2019, at 11:51 , Trevor DeVore via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:31 PM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Add your name to this bug:
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16305
>> 
>> Mark Waddigham chimed in at one point that the Windows API returns the
>> 8px border width under Windows 10 - the 1px visible border and a 7px
>> "touch area" is apparently how Microsoft views it, so LC's position is
>> that this is sort of an OS vendor issue rather than their.
>> 
>> I disagree of course.
>> 
> 
> I agree with your disagreement. I've added my 2 cents.
> 
> -- 
> Trevor DeVore
> ScreenSteps
> www.screensteps.com




From paul at researchware.com  Mon Oct 21 17:03:08 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:03:08 -0400
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <032f5527-d6b8-34b2-c4d9-f7dd53e62180@fourthworld.com>
References: <d7580b1f-7e7b-c94e-26c2-639262d05208@researchware.com>
 <032f5527-d6b8-34b2-c4d9-f7dd53e62180@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <f4300dfe-952c-d533-7893-1ffd10592a75@researchware.com>

On 10/21/2019 4:41 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Paul Dupuis wrote:
>
> > When the 'effective rect' of a stack was introduced to provide the
> > outer boundaries of a stack, along with the effective working
> > screenRects(s), I rewrote all my complicated windows management code
> > (and some of your clever tricks for Windows weirdness, Richard), to
> > use simple elegant code that worked awesomely on all OSX versions and
> > every Windows version until I tried it under Windows 10 and ...
> >
> > Not one of my happier days :-(
>
> But at least it's a simpler workaround these day.
>
> In the olden days the border width of a window in Windows was 
> user-settable, so the only way to get that (and a few other relevant 
> settings) was to obtain metrics from the Windows registry.
>
> With Win10, if I read Mark Waddingham's comment correctly, the border 
> can only be 1px, so all those old registry calls can safely go away 
> with just simple hard-wired arithmetic.
>
 ?True. I just wrote a Win10 specific fix like the one Panos posted in 
the bug. Still I look forward to the day I can remove that and not have 
call a hrEffectiveRect function that returns 'the effective rect' for 
every OS except Windows 10 where it does some subtraction and then 
returns a rect.



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Oct 21 17:19:08 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 14:19:08 -0700
Subject: Effective rect of stacks on Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <f4300dfe-952c-d533-7893-1ffd10592a75@researchware.com>
References: <d7580b1f-7e7b-c94e-26c2-639262d05208@researchware.com>
 <032f5527-d6b8-34b2-c4d9-f7dd53e62180@fourthworld.com>
 <f4300dfe-952c-d533-7893-1ffd10592a75@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <d56ce1e2-75e9-6ce4-fc3e-22fe53c4a7c7@sonic.net>

On 10/21/19 2:03 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:

>  ?True. I just wrote a Win10 specific fix like the one Panos posted in 
> the bug. Still I look forward to the day I can remove that and not have 
> call a hrEffectiveRect function that returns 'the effective rect' for 
> every OS except Windows 10 where it does some subtraction and then 
> returns a rect.

Is there any situation in which it would be useful to have the eye candy 
included in the (effective) rect? If not, I don't understand the LC 
logic at all.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From roland.huettmann at gmail.com  Mon Oct 21 17:22:48 2019
From: roland.huettmann at gmail.com (R.H.)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 23:22:48 +0200
Subject: Video-Player LiveCode on Windows
Message-ID: <CAG1Q0g8fYLq8OgFNTEjX4AcE1uxFcoG5Ybbvc0Wzy_KNgcBgTQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am using Windows 10, 64bit, latest update. I am using an Indy license.
I am working with LC v9.5.0 Build 15503.

Until Christmas I need to develop a small application for music performers
and highly controlled playing of video and audio. I am not too experienced
with LC's video/audio player capabilities. So i tested.

Since I am almost exclusively using the MP4 format, I tried to display
videos that work on all other players (Windows Media Player, VLC, Movies &
TV, any HTML player), in LC they do not play. Everwhere else, they do.

The provided sample video of the player "C:/Program Files/RunRev/LiveCode
Indy 9.5/Resources/Sample.mpg" works. But it is an .mpg file. If nothing
else works, I have to convert all videos to MPEG?

OK. I installed a separat codec on my Windows system. MP4 partially started
to work. But most of the time, it does not. Only sound is played, but no
video. But even with installed codec that support all kinds of video and
audio formats, the LC player does not play .akp or .webm files.

In my application it is essential to loop through segments of the video
multiple times. The "loop" function cannot be used here as it can not be
defined to loop a specified number of times through a segment defined by
start-time and stop-time and be user controlled. I just tried a repeat loop
that calls the player repeatedly. First, it did not work. But then the
solution: The player first must have stopped and must have sent a stop
message that can be retrieved from the handler "on playstopped" to start
playing again. I am setting a global gVideoEnded. Then starting another
play segment loop is possible with a "wait with messages" command waiting
for the global flag set to be true. The solution worked with some small MP4
files.

But bigger video files (also smaller ones) seem to create problems. For the
first time, the video may (or may not) play, but then it may completely
stop and not play again. No other video then can be played. Even reloading
the same video file will not work then.

Often, at this point, the LC IDE stops working and I have to force-quit and
restart.

Also, from a huge number of local MT4 videos, only a small part will show
video while the sound usually plays.

To me it appears that either this new version of LC is not working with
this player on Windows the way it should, or it is a general bug with the
player, or something is wrong with me.

I am just asking if anybody experienced problems playing MP4 videos on
Windows. I am really interested to know. If it the current player is too
buggy then I have to use a Javascript player or play with ffmeg (very nice
utility). I cannot spend days or weeks trying to find out what is going
wrong. Any experiences playing video in the browser widget?

Any other experiences with playing .webm or .akp video files?

If others here have same or similar problems and there is no bug report, I
will post a bug report. I could not find recent bugs for the player object
on Windows describing this problem.

Roland


From paul at researchware.com  Mon Oct 21 17:37:18 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:37:18 -0400
Subject: Video-Player LiveCode on Windows
In-Reply-To: <CAG1Q0g8fYLq8OgFNTEjX4AcE1uxFcoG5Ybbvc0Wzy_KNgcBgTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1Q0g8fYLq8OgFNTEjX4AcE1uxFcoG5Ybbvc0Wzy_KNgcBgTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f85f8ab9-4288-71d1-51ab-64e015a69b16@researchware.com>

LC9 uses DirectShow which Microsoft ships with a very limited number of 
formats it supports.

We recommend people install LAV Filters - a free set of additional codec 
for DirectShow that provides a format range comparable to Apple AVF

https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases/download/0.74.1/LAVFilters-0.74.1-Installer.exe

Don't let the 0.74.1 version number scare you, there are really very good.

Also be aware that there are a bunch of player object bugs:

See 
https://quality.livecode.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&list_id=92758&short_desc=player&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=PENDING&bug_status=PENDING_AWAITING_FOLLOW_UP&bug_status=EXPERT_REVIEW&bug_status=CONFIRMED&bug_status=CONFIRMED_NOT_REPRODUCED&bug_status=IN_PROGRESS&bug_status=IN_PROGRESS_AWAITING_FOLLOW_UP&bug_status=AWAITING_MERGE&bug_status=AWAITING_TEST&bug_status=AWAITING_RELEASE&bug_status=HIBERNATED&bug_status=REOPENED&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr



On 10/21/2019 5:22 PM, R.H. via use-livecode wrote:
> I am using Windows 10, 64bit, latest update. I am using an Indy license.
> I am working with LC v9.5.0 Build 15503.
>
> Until Christmas I need to develop a small application for music performers
> and highly controlled playing of video and audio. I am not too experienced
> with LC's video/audio player capabilities. So i tested.
>
> Since I am almost exclusively using the MP4 format, I tried to display
> videos that work on all other players (Windows Media Player, VLC, Movies &
> TV, any HTML player), in LC they do not play. Everwhere else, they do.
>
> The provided sample video of the player "C:/Program Files/RunRev/LiveCode
> Indy 9.5/Resources/Sample.mpg" works. But it is an .mpg file. If nothing
> else works, I have to convert all videos to MPEG?
>
> OK. I installed a separat codec on my Windows system. MP4 partially started
> to work. But most of the time, it does not. Only sound is played, but no
> video. But even with installed codec that support all kinds of video and
> audio formats, the LC player does not play .akp or .webm files.
>
> In my application it is essential to loop through segments of the video
> multiple times. The "loop" function cannot be used here as it can not be
> defined to loop a specified number of times through a segment defined by
> start-time and stop-time and be user controlled. I just tried a repeat loop
> that calls the player repeatedly. First, it did not work. But then the
> solution: The player first must have stopped and must have sent a stop
> message that can be retrieved from the handler "on playstopped" to start
> playing again. I am setting a global gVideoEnded. Then starting another
> play segment loop is possible with a "wait with messages" command waiting
> for the global flag set to be true. The solution worked with some small MP4
> files.
>
> But bigger video files (also smaller ones) seem to create problems. For the
> first time, the video may (or may not) play, but then it may completely
> stop and not play again. No other video then can be played. Even reloading
> the same video file will not work then.
>
> Often, at this point, the LC IDE stops working and I have to force-quit and
> restart.
>
> Also, from a huge number of local MT4 videos, only a small part will show
> video while the sound usually plays.
>
> To me it appears that either this new version of LC is not working with
> this player on Windows the way it should, or it is a general bug with the
> player, or something is wrong with me.
>
> I am just asking if anybody experienced problems playing MP4 videos on
> Windows. I am really interested to know. If it the current player is too
> buggy then I have to use a Javascript player or play with ffmeg (very nice
> utility). I cannot spend days or weeks trying to find out what is going
> wrong. Any experiences playing video in the browser widget?
>
> Any other experiences with playing .webm or .akp video files?
>
> If others here have same or similar problems and there is no bug report, I
> will post a bug report. I could not find recent bugs for the player object
> on Windows describing this problem.
>
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>




From mkoob at rogers.com  Mon Oct 21 17:50:50 2019
From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:50:50 -0400
Subject: AWS S3 support: docs?
In-Reply-To: <b762e348-c03e-214e-63aa-ea03a137b0b5@krutt.org>
References: <AA8F5544-DAF8-4CC9-83EF-0B827DD3472D@rogers.com>
 <9aee69a9-8fd3-d942-395e-a98b1bce7bb3@fourthworld.com>
 <9C857F2B-E330-433F-959E-684BCCD4D478@rogers.com>
 <b762e348-c03e-214e-63aa-ea03a137b0b5@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <7F241497-1DE5-4E80-BD4B-92640C4A2ECB@rogers.com>

I have LC Business. Maybe that is why I have the info in the dictionary. 

Martin

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 21, 2019, at 4:07 PM, JJS via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> i can see it in the dictionary 950 Indy on windows
> 
> Op 21-10-2019 om 21:28 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
>> Hi Richard
>> 
>> I had been using Monte?s mergAWS for an application then the new AWS S3 commands were incorporated into LiveCode 9. So I needed to make some changes to transition.  I was using LC 9.0.4. I am sure I was using the dictionary in the IDE.  I am not at my Mac now. Try searching S3.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 21, 2019, at 1:32 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Martin.  That's also very handy, but how did you learn the syntax?  Where is this library documented?
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Richard Gaskin
>>> Fourth World Systems
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Martin Koob wrote:
>>>> Hi Richard
>>>> I have a test stack got most of the commands, functions and messages uploaded to a bug report. https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22383
>>>> I have been meaning to clean it up a bit and post it somewhere for users. Martin
>>>>> On Oct 21, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> Apparently v9 added support for Amazon's S3, but I can't find documentation on it.
>>>>> I see mention of it in the Release Notes for v9 and later, e.g.:
>>>>>  Amazon Web Services (AWS) Library
>>>>>  The new Amazon Web Services library includes support for Amazon
>>>>>  Simple Storage Service (S3). You can use S3 to provide cloud
>>>>>  storage for your app. Read more here
>>>>> https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/whats-new/release-notes/
>>>>> Unfortunately, the "Read more here" link goes to Amazon AWS, where they provide no documentation on using their service with LiveCode.
>>>>> I tried looking in the LC Dictionary, but searching for "aws" and "s3" yield nothing.
>>>>> Clues?
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dochawk at gmail.com  Mon Oct 21 18:19:22 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:19:22 -0700
Subject: Merge PDF
In-Reply-To: <7ADD6B48-5033-4369-8780-675AE73752F0@hyperhh.de>
References: <7ADD6B48-5033-4369-8780-675AE73752F0@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <28B80B73-992B-48BA-B78A-C270AAD331C1@gmail.com>


On Oct 21, 2019, at 10:55 AM, hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I had it ready yesterday for Mac and tried a full day to work

I?ll start pounding the mac version was soon as I get my hands on it . . 

? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From dochawk at gmail.com  Mon Oct 21 18:24:33 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:24:33 -0700
Subject: Merge PDF
In-Reply-To: <28B80B73-992B-48BA-B78A-C270AAD331C1@gmail.com>
References: <7ADD6B48-5033-4369-8780-675AE73752F0@hyperhh.de>
 <28B80B73-992B-48BA-B78A-C270AAD331C1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <36B3D80A-FDEF-4C67-969A-639E8AE03992@gmail.com>


Silly question now that I think of it . . . does t avoid the pixelization that the pdf widget performs?

And for that matter, does it work with cropped sections, or just full pages?

? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 21 21:45:40 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 03:45:40 +0200
Subject: Merge PDF
Message-ID: <D4BC57D1-0B34-4731-864D-66E5E8055EC9@hyperhh.de>

> Richard H. wrote:
> Silly question now that I think of it . . . does t avoid
> the pixelization that the pdf widget performs?
> And for that matter, does it work with cropped sections,
> or just full pages?

The PDf-lib doesn't use image snapshots. It is true PDF:
Copied are pages and all it needs for each page from the
pdf's catalog. So usually there will be no increase in
size from the merged parts to the merged sum. And there
will be no change in quality.

The merged input pdfs can be of any size. So, as long as
your "cropped sections" are true PDF and not images then
there will be no problem.

Of course, merging can't improve embedded pictures.
And included pictures will pixelate at some point of
enlarging.

And of course built-in javascript as clickable links to
pages in the same document or URLs are lost.



From tom at makeshyft.com  Mon Oct 21 22:39:40 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:39:40 -0400
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

My father and I have gotten to talking recently and I shared with him the
product I will the launching (shortly).  My dad father is a kind of white
hat hacker and loves the challenge of it.

My software will have a 30 day trial.  He wants to help me by testing how
hard it will be to produce a cracked version of my software.

He told me some hints about his approach...... he is an expert at assembly
language and keeps it simple..........he's kept up the skill even though he
uses C++ and PHP for his work.

But he has never seen livecode before.

He challenged me to stop him..... I know that if he spends enough hours, it
can be done.

My target market is not people who would have the skill to hack the
software.  THe price point is not worth the effort.    My target market, in
general, would not bother.  So I haven't bothered to go nuts in securing my
trial mechanism.

But......I feel like I have to at least try and win. :D

I'm not asking for advice on how to do it, but my question is more general
about LC..... since its not widely known.... does it put me at a
disadvantage or an advantage or neither?  Standalione will be 9.05 indy.

I'm having a great time so far ...lol..this is gonna be fun.

-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From sundown at pacifier.com  Mon Oct 21 22:52:10 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 19:52:10 -0700
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2CF20B93-CFF2-483B-85F6-1F21A756939A@pacifier.com>

rumor has it.. .. Anything Can Be CRACKED!

JB

> On Oct 21, 2019, at 7:39 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> My father and I have gotten to talking recently and I shared with him the
> product I will the launching (shortly).  My dad father is a kind of white
> hat hacker and loves the challenge of it.
> 
> My software will have a 30 day trial.  He wants to help me by testing how
> hard it will be to produce a cracked version of my software.
> 
> He told me some hints about his approach...... he is an expert at assembly
> language and keeps it simple..........he's kept up the skill even though he
> uses C++ and PHP for his work.
> 
> But he has never seen livecode before.
> 
> He challenged me to stop him..... I know that if he spends enough hours, it
> can be done.
> 
> My target market is not people who would have the skill to hack the
> software.  THe price point is not worth the effort.    My target market, in
> general, would not bother.  So I haven't bothered to go nuts in securing my
> trial mechanism.
> 
> But......I feel like I have to at least try and win. :D
> 
> I'm not asking for advice on how to do it, but my question is more general
> about LC..... since its not widely known.... does it put me at a
> disadvantage or an advantage or neither?  Standalione will be 9.05 indy.
> 
> I'm having a great time so far ...lol..this is gonna be fun.
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From kee.nethery at elloco.com  Mon Oct 21 23:02:34 2019
From: kee.nethery at elloco.com (kee nethery)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:02:34 -0700
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>

My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a dongle. But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in the scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked to the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that checked the hashes of the scripts ?

Plus, she broke up the calculations into various sections of other code. When a script noticed stuff was being altered, it would start erasing stuff in the app stack. And it would look for Hypercard itself on their disk and start erasing stuff in it. It would hold on as long as possible doing as much damage as possible.

Setting the code to do all this protection was a carefully scripted process because one false step and it would self destruct and damage her Hypercard. It was pretty obvious to me when that happened because the cursing would be rather loud and prolonged.

She?d do things like add up all the chars in a script, do a modulo on that number, and then go to script ID <that answer> to execute a line of code in that script.

I?m sure someone could have eventually gotten past all that stuff but don?t think anyone ever did.

------

All that said, shareware authors would routinely hang out on crack sites and seconds before releasing their app, they would post a crack. No one wants to be the second person to crack an app so the author would be the only crack. That crack would allow someone to use the app for some period of time (months) and then it would develop some kind of error. Users would call in for support on XYZ error and the answer was, the more recent version fixes that. It?s a simple upgrade, here?s the URL for users with this error. And those folks would become paid users.

Kee


From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Oct 22 00:07:56 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:07:56 -0700
Subject: Push Card
Message-ID: <4E32CC3F-FC14-487B-B9D8-FFBAED14208A@pacifier.com>

The list of pushed cards is cleared when you quit the application.

Is there a way to clear the list without quitting the application?

JB



From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 22 06:44:15 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 12:44:15 +0200
Subject: Push Card
Message-ID: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>

> JB wrote:
> The list of pushed cards is cleared when you quit the application.
> Is there a way to clear the list without quitting the application?

You could try

on mouseUp
  put "home.livecodescript"&quote into tA
  repeat
    pop card into tB
    if tB ends with tA then exit repeat
  end repeat
end mouseUp




From tom at makeshyft.com  Tue Oct 22 10:46:01 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:46:01 -0400
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLB8CKfVGP52fREkP9VFQuxdozqUkz+t1MLwLRV1bAUvw@mail.gmail.com>

JB, of course thats true, its just a matter of how long it takes and how
skilled the cracker must be.  Its definitely not a reason not to try.

Kee, that sounds like quite the scheme.... a self-destructing stack.  My
initial instinct is to create some trap using hashing also.

Thanks. :)

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:03 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a dongle.
> But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in the
> scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked to
> the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that checked
> the hashes of the scripts ?
>
> Plus, she broke up the calculations into various sections of other code.
> When a script noticed stuff was being altered, it would start erasing stuff
> in the app stack. And it would look for Hypercard itself on their disk and
> start erasing stuff in it. It would hold on as long as possible doing as
> much damage as possible.
>
> Setting the code to do all this protection was a carefully scripted
> process because one false step and it would self destruct and damage her
> Hypercard. It was pretty obvious to me when that happened because the
> cursing would be rather loud and prolonged.
>
> She?d do things like add up all the chars in a script, do a modulo on that
> number, and then go to script ID <that answer> to execute a line of code in
> that script.
>
> I?m sure someone could have eventually gotten past all that stuff but
> don?t think anyone ever did.
>
> ------
>
> All that said, shareware authors would routinely hang out on crack sites
> and seconds before releasing their app, they would post a crack. No one
> wants to be the second person to crack an app so the author would be the
> only crack. That crack would allow someone to use the app for some period
> of time (months) and then it would develop some kind of error. Users would
> call in for support on XYZ error and the answer was, the more recent
> version fixes that. It?s a simple upgrade, here?s the URL for users with
> this error. And those folks would become paid users.
>
> Kee
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 22 11:07:39 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:07:39 +0000
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLB8CKfVGP52fREkP9VFQuxdozqUkz+t1MLwLRV1bAUvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <CAPzQJLLB8CKfVGP52fREkP9VFQuxdozqUkz+t1MLwLRV1bAUvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F563AA31-B11E-4D90-805B-30EE4A089D4B@iotecdigital.com>

I'd be curious to know how well simply pass protecting the stacks does. Given the "hacker" doesn't know the key that was used for the encryption, it shouldn't be possible. 

Bob S


> On Oct 22, 2019, at 07:46 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> JB, of course thats true, its just a matter of how long it takes and how
> skilled the cracker must be.  Its definitely not a reason not to try.
> 
> Kee, that sounds like quite the scheme.... a self-destructing stack.  My
> initial instinct is to create some trap using hashing also.
> 
> Thanks. :)
> 
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:03 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a dongle.
>> But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in the
>> scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked to
>> the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that checked
>> the hashes of the scripts ?
>> 
>> Plus, she broke up the calculations into various sections of other code.
>> When a script noticed stuff was being altered, it would start erasing stuff
>> in the app stack. And it would look for Hypercard itself on their disk and
>> start erasing stuff in it. It would hold on as long as possible doing as
>> much damage as possible.
>> 
>> Setting the code to do all this protection was a carefully scripted
>> process because one false step and it would self destruct and damage her
>> Hypercard. It was pretty obvious to me when that happened because the
>> cursing would be rather loud and prolonged.
>> 
>> She?d do things like add up all the chars in a script, do a modulo on that
>> number, and then go to script ID <that answer> to execute a line of code in
>> that script.
>> 
>> I?m sure someone could have eventually gotten past all that stuff but
>> don?t think anyone ever did.
>> 
>> ------
>> 
>> All that said, shareware authors would routinely hang out on crack sites
>> and seconds before releasing their app, they would post a crack. No one
>> wants to be the second person to crack an app so the author would be the
>> only crack. That crack would allow someone to use the app for some period
>> of time (months) and then it would develop some kind of error. Users would
>> call in for support on XYZ error and the answer was, the more recent
>> version fixes that. It?s a simple upgrade, here?s the URL for users with
>> this error. And those folks would become paid users.
>> 
>> Kee


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Tue Oct 22 11:19:42 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:19:42 -0500
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <F563AA31-B11E-4D90-805B-30EE4A089D4B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <CAPzQJLLB8CKfVGP52fREkP9VFQuxdozqUkz+t1MLwLRV1bAUvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F563AA31-B11E-4D90-805B-30EE4A089D4B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <16df40d66b0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

That was my first thought too, password protecting the stack makes the 
scripts unreadable. The hacker would have to read the memory directly and 
I'm not sure what that would show, but I don't think it would be 
particularly organized.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 22, 2019 10:09:40 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I'd be curious to know how well simply pass protecting the stacks does. 
> Given the "hacker" doesn't know the key that was used for the encryption, 
> it shouldn't be possible.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 07:46 , Tom Glod via use-livecode 
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> JB, of course thats true, its just a matter of how long it takes and how
>> skilled the cracker must be.  Its definitely not a reason not to try.
>>
>> Kee, that sounds like quite the scheme.... a self-destructing stack.  My
>> initial instinct is to create some trap using hashing also.
>>
>> Thanks. :)
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:03 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a dongle.
>>> But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in the
>>> scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked to
>>> the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that checked
>>> the hashes of the scripts ?
>>>
>>> Plus, she broke up the calculations into various sections of other code.
>>> When a script noticed stuff was being altered, it would start erasing stuff
>>> in the app stack. And it would look for Hypercard itself on their disk and
>>> start erasing stuff in it. It would hold on as long as possible doing as
>>> much damage as possible.
>>>
>>> Setting the code to do all this protection was a carefully scripted
>>> process because one false step and it would self destruct and damage her
>>> Hypercard. It was pretty obvious to me when that happened because the
>>> cursing would be rather loud and prolonged.
>>>
>>> She?d do things like add up all the chars in a script, do a modulo on that
>>> number, and then go to script ID <that answer> to execute a line of code in
>>> that script.
>>>
>>> I?m sure someone could have eventually gotten past all that stuff but
>>> don?t think anyone ever did.
>>>
>>> ------
>>>
>>> All that said, shareware authors would routinely hang out on crack sites
>>> and seconds before releasing their app, they would post a crack. No one
>>> wants to be the second person to crack an app so the author would be the
>>> only crack. That crack would allow someone to use the app for some period
>>> of time (months) and then it would develop some kind of error. Users would
>>> call in for support on XYZ error and the answer was, the more recent
>>> version fixes that. It?s a simple upgrade, here?s the URL for users with
>>> this error. And those folks would become paid users.
>>>
>>> Kee
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Oct 22 11:39:36 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:39:36 -0700
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
References: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>

Thank you for the info!

I think I am going to rewrite the code to work
better and eliminate using push card for this
instance.

JB

> On Oct 22, 2019, at 3:44 AM, hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> JB wrote:
>> The list of pushed cards is cleared when you quit the application.
>> Is there a way to clear the list without quitting the application?
> 
> You could try
> 
> on mouseUp
>  put "home.livecodescript"&quote into tA
>  repeat
>    pop card into tB
>    if tB ends with tA then exit repeat
>  end repeat
> end mouseUp
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 22 11:49:46 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:49:46 +0000
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>
References: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
 <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>

I have tried push and pop before but you really have to keep track of the pushed cards or you end up somewhere unexpected. I'm still not sure what the utility of having lots and lots of cards is, if that is what you are doing, especially considering that the LC engine is not optimized to use that paradigm. 

Bob S


> On Oct 22, 2019, at 08:39 , JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you for the info!
> 
> I think I am going to rewrite the code to work
> better and eliminate using push card for this
> instance.
> 
> JB




From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Oct 22 12:04:43 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 09:04:43 -0700
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>
References: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
 <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>
 <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <9EA97D7E-794B-4C51-B155-DBBDE90CA64B@pacifier.com>

I don?t have very many cards but eventually I end
up somewhere I didn?t expect and if I cleared the
list it would take care of the problem.  But if I take
the time to write the code better I can solve the
problem without using push and pop.

JB

> On Oct 22, 2019, at 8:49 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I have tried push and pop before but you really have to keep track of the pushed cards or you end up somewhere unexpected. I'm still not sure what the utility of having lots and lots of cards is, if that is what you are doing, especially considering that the LC engine is not optimized to use that paradigm. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 08:39 , JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you for the info!
>> 
>> I think I am going to rewrite the code to work
>> better and eliminate using push card for this
>> instance.
>> 
>> JB
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 22 12:14:12 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 16:14:12 +0000
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <9EA97D7E-794B-4C51-B155-DBBDE90CA64B@pacifier.com>
References: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
 <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>
 <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>
 <9EA97D7E-794B-4C51-B155-DBBDE90CA64B@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <064F8431-26B8-48EC-A9F1-13E977DC3B1B@iotecdigital.com>

One way to do this is to have a single function do the pushing and popping so it always knows where it is. 

Bob S


> On Oct 22, 2019, at 09:04 , JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I don?t have very many cards but eventually I end
> up somewhere I didn?t expect and if I cleared the
> list it would take care of the problem.  But if I take
> the time to write the code better I can solve the
> problem without using push and pop.
> 
> JB


From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Oct 22 12:24:03 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 09:24:03 -0700
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <064F8431-26B8-48EC-A9F1-13E977DC3B1B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
 <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>
 <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>
 <9EA97D7E-794B-4C51-B155-DBBDE90CA64B@pacifier.com>
 <064F8431-26B8-48EC-A9F1-13E977DC3B1B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <7C3D4F69-E5C8-41C3-84A3-7F1E8C2BFF3B@pacifier.com>

Do you mean to also keep a track of my own card id?s and
then eliminate the ones I do not want in the list?

That would probably work but I think I will just write the
code differently for this program.  It is not a big problem
but the ending up where I did not expect just needs to
be fixed and is not going to be very difficult.

thanks for the help!

JB

> On Oct 22, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> One way to do this is to have a single function do the pushing and popping so it always knows where it is. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 09:04 , JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I don?t have very many cards but eventually I end
>> up somewhere I didn?t expect and if I cleared the
>> list it would take care of the problem.  But if I take
>> the time to write the code better I can solve the
>> problem without using push and pop.
>> 
>> JB
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From tom at makeshyft.com  Tue Oct 22 13:38:34 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 13:38:34 -0400
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <16df40d66b0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <CAPzQJLLB8CKfVGP52fREkP9VFQuxdozqUkz+t1MLwLRV1bAUvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F563AA31-B11E-4D90-805B-30EE4A089D4B@iotecdigital.com>
 <16df40d66b0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLJq7z-EWG1DR5GfKAhFy_bxkAyBbDNB6azA-BgmxZPyQA@mail.gmail.com>

Funny, I just sat down to fire up LC to check on the encryption option.
That will be the first thing I will do.

My dad will do this using a C++ / assembly debugger, and he finds the point
at which the trial limitation is lifted or enforced, and does all his work
there.  So he'll be looking at memory directly and will try to inject a
'simple' workaround.

I'm not sure about this, but probably the arrangement and sequence of
variables in the applications' memory space will be different each time it
starts?  I could be wrong but I believe cracks and patches often use a
specific byte offsets to make changes to specific portions of the program,
assuming their location is always the same within the applications
memory.   This is where I think an LC standalone is different, but thats
just speculation on my part.

With enough time ....sure...everything can be cracked......., I don't think
it will be easy for him at all, given he's never seen LC.

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 11:20 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> That was my first thought too, password protecting the stack makes the
> scripts unreadable. The hacker would have to read the memory directly and
> I'm not sure what that would show, but I don't think it would be
> particularly organized.
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On October 22, 2019 10:09:40 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > I'd be curious to know how well simply pass protecting the stacks does.
> > Given the "hacker" doesn't know the key that was used for the
> encryption,
> > it shouldn't be possible.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> >> On Oct 22, 2019, at 07:46 , Tom Glod via use-livecode
> >> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> JB, of course thats true, its just a matter of how long it takes and how
> >> skilled the cracker must be.  Its definitely not a reason not to try.
> >>
> >> Kee, that sounds like quite the scheme.... a self-destructing stack.  My
> >> initial instinct is to create some trap using hashing also.
> >>
> >> Thanks. :)
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:03 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a
> dongle.
> >>> But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in the
> >>> scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked
> to
> >>> the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that
> checked
> >>> the hashes of the scripts ?
> >>>
> >>> Plus, she broke up the calculations into various sections of other
> code.
> >>> When a script noticed stuff was being altered, it would start erasing
> stuff
> >>> in the app stack. And it would look for Hypercard itself on their disk
> and
> >>> start erasing stuff in it. It would hold on as long as possible doing
> as
> >>> much damage as possible.
> >>>
> >>> Setting the code to do all this protection was a carefully scripted
> >>> process because one false step and it would self destruct and damage
> her
> >>> Hypercard. It was pretty obvious to me when that happened because the
> >>> cursing would be rather loud and prolonged.
> >>>
> >>> She?d do things like add up all the chars in a script, do a modulo on
> that
> >>> number, and then go to script ID <that answer> to execute a line of
> code in
> >>> that script.
> >>>
> >>> I?m sure someone could have eventually gotten past all that stuff but
> >>> don?t think anyone ever did.
> >>>
> >>> ------
> >>>
> >>> All that said, shareware authors would routinely hang out on crack
> sites
> >>> and seconds before releasing their app, they would post a crack. No one
> >>> wants to be the second person to crack an app so the author would be
> the
> >>> only crack. That crack would allow someone to use the app for some
> period
> >>> of time (months) and then it would develop some kind of error. Users
> would
> >>> call in for support on XYZ error and the answer was, the more recent
> >>> version fixes that. It?s a simple upgrade, here?s the URL for users
> with
> >>> this error. And those folks would become paid users.
> >>>
> >>> Kee
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From dunbarx at aol.com  Tue Oct 22 13:40:48 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:40:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <7C3D4F69-E5C8-41C3-84A3-7F1E8C2BFF3B@pacifier.com>
References: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
 <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>
 <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>
 <9EA97D7E-794B-4C51-B155-DBBDE90CA64B@pacifier.com>
 <064F8431-26B8-48EC-A9F1-13E977DC3B1B@iotecdigital.com>
 <7C3D4F69-E5C8-41C3-84A3-7F1E8C2BFF3B@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <1183900126.3494213.1571766048340@mail.yahoo.com>

This goes back to 1987. The HC team assumed that most people would navigate
like crazy, think rolodex, and being able to retrace ones history would be a
very useful tool.

There should be a "clear recent" command, so that the piles of cards in that
history can be eliminated. But LC has things that make this simple, the
"recentCards" and "recentNames" properties.

Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: JB <sundown at pacifier.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2019 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: Push Card

Do you mean to also keep a track of my own card id?s and
then eliminate the ones I do not want in the list?

That would probably work but I think I will just write the
code differently for this program.? It is not a big problem
but the ending up where I did not expect just needs to
be fixed and is not going to be very difficult.

thanks for the help!

JB

> On Oct 22, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> One way to do this is to have a single function do the pushing and popping so it always knows where it is. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 09:04 , JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I don?t have very many cards but eventually I end
>> up somewhere I didn?t expect and if I cleared the
>> list it would take care of the problem.? But if I take
>> the time to write the code better I can solve the
>> problem without using push and pop.
>> 
>> JB
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Oct 22 13:40:44 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:40:44 -0700
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLJq7z-EWG1DR5GfKAhFy_bxkAyBbDNB6azA-BgmxZPyQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <CAPzQJLLB8CKfVGP52fREkP9VFQuxdozqUkz+t1MLwLRV1bAUvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F563AA31-B11E-4D90-805B-30EE4A089D4B@iotecdigital.com>
 <16df40d66b0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CAPzQJLJq7z-EWG1DR5GfKAhFy_bxkAyBbDNB6azA-BgmxZPyQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55443F9F-A640-4D59-B7A8-9E248322CEAB@pacifier.com>

Well considering he writes assembly and other languages
and is communicating with other people he might be able
to do things that would surprise you.

JB

> On Oct 22, 2019, at 10:38 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Funny, I just sat down to fire up LC to check on the encryption option.
> That will be the first thing I will do.
> 
> My dad will do this using a C++ / assembly debugger, and he finds the point
> at which the trial limitation is lifted or enforced, and does all his work
> there.  So he'll be looking at memory directly and will try to inject a
> 'simple' workaround.
> 
> I'm not sure about this, but probably the arrangement and sequence of
> variables in the applications' memory space will be different each time it
> starts?  I could be wrong but I believe cracks and patches often use a
> specific byte offsets to make changes to specific portions of the program,
> assuming their location is always the same within the applications
> memory.   This is where I think an LC standalone is different, but thats
> just speculation on my part.
> 
> With enough time ....sure...everything can be cracked......., I don't think
> it will be easy for him at all, given he's never seen LC.
> 
> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 11:20 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> That was my first thought too, password protecting the stack makes the
>> scripts unreadable. The hacker would have to read the memory directly and
>> I'm not sure what that would show, but I don't think it would be
>> particularly organized.
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>> On October 22, 2019 10:09:40 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd be curious to know how well simply pass protecting the stacks does.
>>> Given the "hacker" doesn't know the key that was used for the
>> encryption,
>>> it shouldn't be possible.
>>> 
>>> Bob S
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 07:46 , Tom Glod via use-livecode
>>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> JB, of course thats true, its just a matter of how long it takes and how
>>>> skilled the cracker must be.  Its definitely not a reason not to try.
>>>> 
>>>> Kee, that sounds like quite the scheme.... a self-destructing stack.  My
>>>> initial instinct is to create some trap using hashing also.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks. :)
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:03 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a
>> dongle.
>>>>> But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in the
>>>>> scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked
>> to
>>>>> the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that
>> checked
>>>>> the hashes of the scripts ?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Plus, she broke up the calculations into various sections of other
>> code.
>>>>> When a script noticed stuff was being altered, it would start erasing
>> stuff
>>>>> in the app stack. And it would look for Hypercard itself on their disk
>> and
>>>>> start erasing stuff in it. It would hold on as long as possible doing
>> as
>>>>> much damage as possible.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Setting the code to do all this protection was a carefully scripted
>>>>> process because one false step and it would self destruct and damage
>> her
>>>>> Hypercard. It was pretty obvious to me when that happened because the
>>>>> cursing would be rather loud and prolonged.
>>>>> 
>>>>> She?d do things like add up all the chars in a script, do a modulo on
>> that
>>>>> number, and then go to script ID <that answer> to execute a line of
>> code in
>>>>> that script.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I?m sure someone could have eventually gotten past all that stuff but
>>>>> don?t think anyone ever did.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------
>>>>> 
>>>>> All that said, shareware authors would routinely hang out on crack
>> sites
>>>>> and seconds before releasing their app, they would post a crack. No one
>>>>> wants to be the second person to crack an app so the author would be
>> the
>>>>> only crack. That crack would allow someone to use the app for some
>> period
>>>>> of time (months) and then it would develop some kind of error. Users
>> would
>>>>> call in for support on XYZ error and the answer was, the more recent
>>>>> version fixes that. It?s a simple upgrade, here?s the URL for users
>> with
>>>>> this error. And those folks would become paid users.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kee
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Oct 22 13:46:13 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:46:13 -0700
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <1183900126.3494213.1571766048340@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
 <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>
 <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>
 <9EA97D7E-794B-4C51-B155-DBBDE90CA64B@pacifier.com>
 <064F8431-26B8-48EC-A9F1-13E977DC3B1B@iotecdigital.com>
 <7C3D4F69-E5C8-41C3-84A3-7F1E8C2BFF3B@pacifier.com>
 <1183900126.3494213.1571766048340@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <40928A62-879A-4D4C-B23B-519E9F7753EC@pacifier.com>

That is nice to know!

Actually in my case I went down a path I never
should have anyway and writing the code so
it works better instead of using recent or push
is the way to go.

thanks,
JB

> On Oct 22, 2019, at 10:40 AM, dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> This goes back to 1987. The HC team assumed that most people would navigate
> like crazy, think rolodex, and being able to retrace ones history would be a
> very useful tool.
> 
> There should be a "clear recent" command, so that the piles of cards in that
> history can be eliminated. But LC has things that make this simple, the
> "recentCards" and "recentNames" properties.
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: JB <sundown at pacifier.com>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2019 12:28 pm
> Subject: Re: Push Card
> 
> Do you mean to also keep a track of my own card id?s and
> then eliminate the ones I do not want in the list?
> 
> That would probably work but I think I will just write the
> code differently for this program.  It is not a big problem
> but the ending up where I did not expect just needs to
> be fixed and is not going to be very difficult.
> 
> thanks for the help!
> 
> JB
> 
>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> One way to do this is to have a single function do the pushing and popping so it always knows where it is. 
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 09:04 , JB via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don?t have very many cards but eventually I end
>>> up somewhere I didn?t expect and if I cleared the
>>> list it would take care of the problem.  But if I take
>>> the time to write the code better I can solve the
>>> problem without using push and pop.
>>> 
>>> JB
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From tom at makeshyft.com  Tue Oct 22 13:53:22 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 13:53:22 -0400
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <55443F9F-A640-4D59-B7A8-9E248322CEAB@pacifier.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <CAPzQJLLB8CKfVGP52fREkP9VFQuxdozqUkz+t1MLwLRV1bAUvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F563AA31-B11E-4D90-805B-30EE4A089D4B@iotecdigital.com>
 <16df40d66b0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
 <CAPzQJLJq7z-EWG1DR5GfKAhFy_bxkAyBbDNB6azA-BgmxZPyQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55443F9F-A640-4D59-B7A8-9E248322CEAB@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+ein8jztKg00K6ZU6B8=AE17OaaR0+5CpJiWjTWWOFaw@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah.......He might call me within 24 hours ......laughing ...and that
wouldn't surprise me at all. :D

Luckily ...none of it is life or death.

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 1:44 PM JB via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Well considering he writes assembly and other languages
> and is communicating with other people he might be able
> to do things that would surprise you.
>
> JB
>
> > On Oct 22, 2019, at 10:38 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Funny, I just sat down to fire up LC to check on the encryption option.
> > That will be the first thing I will do.
> >
> > My dad will do this using a C++ / assembly debugger, and he finds the
> point
> > at which the trial limitation is lifted or enforced, and does all his
> work
> > there.  So he'll be looking at memory directly and will try to inject a
> > 'simple' workaround.
> >
> > I'm not sure about this, but probably the arrangement and sequence of
> > variables in the applications' memory space will be different each time
> it
> > starts?  I could be wrong but I believe cracks and patches often use a
> > specific byte offsets to make changes to specific portions of the
> program,
> > assuming their location is always the same within the applications
> > memory.   This is where I think an LC standalone is different, but thats
> > just speculation on my part.
> >
> > With enough time ....sure...everything can be cracked......., I don't
> think
> > it will be easy for him at all, given he's never seen LC.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 11:20 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That was my first thought too, password protecting the stack makes the
> >> scripts unreadable. The hacker would have to read the memory directly
> and
> >> I'm not sure what that would show, but I don't think it would be
> >> particularly organized.
> >> --
> >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> >> On October 22, 2019 10:09:40 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
> >> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'd be curious to know how well simply pass protecting the stacks does.
> >>> Given the "hacker" doesn't know the key that was used for the
> >> encryption,
> >>> it shouldn't be possible.
> >>>
> >>> Bob S
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 07:46 , Tom Glod via use-livecode
> >>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> JB, of course thats true, its just a matter of how long it takes and
> how
> >>>> skilled the cracker must be.  Its definitely not a reason not to try.
> >>>>
> >>>> Kee, that sounds like quite the scheme.... a self-destructing stack.
> My
> >>>> initial instinct is to create some trap using hashing also.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks. :)
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:03 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
> >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a
> >> dongle.
> >>>>> But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in
> the
> >>>>> scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that
> talked
> >> to
> >>>>> the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that
> >> checked
> >>>>> the hashes of the scripts ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Plus, she broke up the calculations into various sections of other
> >> code.
> >>>>> When a script noticed stuff was being altered, it would start erasing
> >> stuff
> >>>>> in the app stack. And it would look for Hypercard itself on their
> disk
> >> and
> >>>>> start erasing stuff in it. It would hold on as long as possible doing
> >> as
> >>>>> much damage as possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Setting the code to do all this protection was a carefully scripted
> >>>>> process because one false step and it would self destruct and damage
> >> her
> >>>>> Hypercard. It was pretty obvious to me when that happened because the
> >>>>> cursing would be rather loud and prolonged.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> She?d do things like add up all the chars in a script, do a modulo on
> >> that
> >>>>> number, and then go to script ID <that answer> to execute a line of
> >> code in
> >>>>> that script.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I?m sure someone could have eventually gotten past all that stuff but
> >>>>> don?t think anyone ever did.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All that said, shareware authors would routinely hang out on crack
> >> sites
> >>>>> and seconds before releasing their app, they would post a crack. No
> one
> >>>>> wants to be the second person to crack an app so the author would be
> >> the
> >>>>> only crack. That crack would allow someone to use the app for some
> >> period
> >>>>> of time (months) and then it would develop some kind of error. Users
> >> would
> >>>>> call in for support on XYZ error and the answer was, the more recent
> >>>>> version fixes that. It?s a simple upgrade, here?s the URL for users
> >> with
> >>>>> this error. And those folks would become paid users.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Kee
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >>> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tom Glod
> > Founder & Developer
> > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > Office:226-706-9339
> > Mobile:226-706-9793
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com  Tue Oct 22 14:01:57 2019
From: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com (andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:01:57 +0000
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1571760001.398607.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <20191022180157.Horde.WuCqs5e3Ic0uGcZmBa65Git@oa.serversignin.com>

I learned HyperCard in K-12 during the '90s and moved to LiveCode a  
couple years ago. My coding efficiency and strategies have developed  
considerably over my past couple projects. I don't make a new card for  
everything, but easily end up with a dozen cards in a stack for most  
projects.

Are you saying that LC is better suited to just throw everything onto  
1 card then turn on&off the visibility of groups/etc.?

--Andrew Bell


> Subject: Re: Push Card
> Message-ID: <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD at iotecdigital.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have tried push and pop before but you really have to keep track  
> of the pushed cards or you end up somewhere unexpected. I'm still  
> not sure what the utility of having lots and lots of cards is, if  
> that is what you are doing, especially considering that the LC  
> engine is not optimized to use that paradigm.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 22, 2019, at 08:39 , JB via use-livecode  
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for the info!
>>
>> I think I am going to rewrite the code to work
>> better and eliminate using push card for this
>> instance.
>>
>> JB
>
>





From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 22 14:05:43 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:05:43 +0000
Subject: Possible solution to determine if default network has changed
 (MacOS only for now)
Message-ID: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>

Hi all. 

MacOS only for now. 

I think I put together a way to tell if the default network has changed since the last time an internet connection took place. It's no good of course, just getting the IP address, as given an identical subnet, you have a 1 in 254 change of getting the same IP address on a different network. We want to be absolutely certain. 

Similarly, the gateway, subnet mask and DNS might also be identical. Finally, the only adapter we care about is the one that is being used as the default route to the internet or local resources. (there may be more than one active adapter, as in the Ethernet and Wireless adapters). 

The trick is to get the MAC address of the router, then store it and compare it each time you attempt to communicate. Here's what I came up with. Feel free to chide me if I am overthinking this:

on mouseUp
   put "route get default" into tShellCommand
   put shell(tShellCommand) into tDefaultAdapter
   put lineOffset("Interface: ", tDefaultAdapter) into tInterfaceLine
   
   if tInterfaceLine = 0 then 
      answer info "No default interface found!" as sheet
      exit mouseUp
   end if
   
   put word 2 of line tInterfaceLine of tDefaultAdapter into tDefaultInterface
   put "ipconfig getpacket " & tDefaultInterface into tShellCommand
   put shell(tShellCommand) into tInterfaceDetail
   put lineOffset("router (ip_mult): ", tInterfaceDetail) into tRouterLine
   put word 3 of line tRouterLine of tInterfaceDetail into tRouterAddress
   put char 2 to -2 of tRouterAddress into tRouterAddress
   put tRouterAddress
   put "arp " & tRouterAddress into tShellCommand
   put shell(tShellCommand) into tArpReply
   put word 4 of tArpReply into tDefaultMACAddress
end mouseUp

Bob S




From brian at milby7.com  Tue Oct 22 14:09:34 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 14:09:34 -0400
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <20191022180157.Horde.WuCqs5e3Ic0uGcZmBa65Git@oa.serversignin.com>
References: <20191022180157.Horde.WuCqs5e3Ic0uGcZmBa65Git@oa.serversignin.com>
Message-ID: <6ee55dc8-d21d-41ff-8212-1e4c807883c3@Spark>

I don?t think 12 cards will be an issue. ?The problem is that cards are a linked list in memory so random access to hundreds of cards can be slow. ?Next card is always fast (would have to look to see if it is a double link for the same to be true of previous).

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 22, 2019, 2:02 PM -0400, Andrew Bell via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> I learned HyperCard in K-12 during the '90s and moved to LiveCode a
> couple years ago. My coding efficiency and strategies have developed
> considerably over my past couple projects. I don't make a new card for
> everything, but easily end up with a dozen cards in a stack for most
> projects.
>
> Are you saying that LC is better suited to just throw everything onto
> 1 card then turn on&off the visibility of groups/etc.?
>
> --Andrew Bell
>
>
> > Subject: Re: Push Card
> > Message-ID: <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD at iotecdigital.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > I have tried push and pop before but you really have to keep track
> > of the pushed cards or you end up somewhere unexpected. I'm still
> > not sure what the utility of having lots and lots of cards is, if
> > that is what you are doing, especially considering that the LC
> > engine is not optimized to use that paradigm.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 22, 2019, at 08:39 , JB via use-livecode
> > > <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for the info!
> > >
> > > I think I am going to rewrite the code to work
> > > better and eliminate using push card for this
> > > instance.
> > >
> > > JB
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From dochawk at gmail.com  Tue Oct 22 14:27:47 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:27:47 -0700
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
Message-ID: <E8490C5D-7633-47F6-9B83-37319686B689@gmail.com>


On Oct 21, 2019, at 8:02 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a dongle. But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in the scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked to the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that checked the hashes of the scripts ?


?Those who hashed the hasher, have been hashed!?  ???

Wait, that?s not quite how it goes . . . hmm . . .

From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 22 14:28:59 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:28:59 +0000
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <20191022180157.Horde.WuCqs5e3Ic0uGcZmBa65Git@oa.serversignin.com>
References: <20191022180157.Horde.WuCqs5e3Ic0uGcZmBa65Git@oa.serversignin.com>
Message-ID: <FE89206A-3E3E-45B8-9AFB-C50B8648E48B@iotecdigital.com>



> On Oct 22, 2019, at 11:01 , Andrew Bell via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I learned HyperCard in K-12 during the '90s and moved to LiveCode a couple years ago. My coding efficiency and strategies have developed considerably over my past couple projects. I don't make a new card for everything, but easily end up with a dozen cards in a stack for most projects.
> 
> Are you saying that LC is better suited to just throw everything onto 1 card then turn on&off the visibility of groups/etc.?
> 
> --Andrew Bell

Not at all. 

Hypercard was designed so that people with no database knowedge whatsoever could nevertheless store and search for information quickly and easily by first storing information on "cards", and then having a very robust full text indexing engine (quite advanced for it's time too) so that finding that information would be bearably fast. 

The trouble came in when people began to discover that at around 2000 cards, things began to slow down, and stacks began to experience corruption. I think they eventually discovered that Hypercard needed time to do some housecleaning, and rapid continuous writes kept it from doing that. 

LC is optimized (not sure that's the right term for it) to use cards like forms, and then populate those "forms" with data from other sources like databases, arrays, files etc. I have 15 stacks in my current project, and all but the main stack only have one card. 

I could have simply created 15 cards, but then the size of each card is different, and what each stack does is anything from slightly different to radically different, so having multiple stacks helps me keep all that organized. Also, each stack (I call them modules) can be open simultaneously with others, like the customer stack and the devices stack for example, which I could not do with a single stack and multiple cards. 

It sounds tempting at first to have groups that get shown and hidden on a single card, but keeping these groups organized, selecting groups under other groups, copying and pasting between groups etc. will quickly cure you of that approach. 

Bob S




From dochawk at gmail.com  Tue Oct 22 14:30:58 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:30:58 -0700
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>
References: <DBE103F1-3369-4BAB-B603-E4BF5C5EACCA@hyperhh.de>
 <5FA9130E-2535-468F-AB6F-6DD34F1B9D3F@pacifier.com>
 <2D259A07-7C34-4337-9DBB-24F2FF8E6FDD@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <DEB96D9C-20FD-4792-BEBE-9D85AB5C759F@gmail.com>


On Oct 22, 2019, at 8:49 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I have tried push and pop before but you really have to keep track of the pushed cards or you end up somewhere unexpected. 

Every time I?ve tried to use push/pop, it?s been more trouble than it was worth?with the lone exception being a three line sequence of push, do something that absolutely had to use the current card, pop.



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 22 14:31:05 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:31:05 +0000
Subject: Possible solution to determine if default network has changed
 (MacOS only for now)
In-Reply-To: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <9A72AED6-1E9B-4581-84F5-C2D090B09B70@iotecdigital.com>



> On Oct 22, 2019, at 11:05 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all. 
> 
> MacOS only for now. 
> 
> I think I put together a way to tell if the default network has changed since the last time an internet connection took place. It's no good of course, just getting the IP address, as given an identical subnet, you have a 1 in 254 change of getting the same IP address on a different network. We want to be absolutely certain. 

<snip>

Well of course, as soon as I posted I realized 2 adapters on the same network like ethernet and wireless would produce the same results, so here's an iteration that gets the MAC address of the default adapter AND the Router's MAC address. 

Bob S

on mouseUp
   put "route get default" into tShellCommand
   put shell(tShellCommand) into tDefaultAdapter
   put lineOffset("Interface: ", tDefaultAdapter) into tInterfaceLine
   
   if tInterfaceLine = 0 then 
      answer info "No default interface found!" as sheet
      exit mouseUp
   end if
   
   put word 2 of line tInterfaceLine of tDefaultAdapter into tDefaultInterface
   put "ipconfig getpacket " & tDefaultInterface into tShellCommand
   put shell(tShellCommand) into tInterfaceDetail
   put lineOffset("chaddr", tInterfaceDetail) into tInterfaceMACLine
   put word 3 of line tInterfaceMACLine of tInterfaceDetail into tDefaultMACAddress
   put lineOffset("router (ip_mult): ", tInterfaceDetail) into tRouterLine
   put word 3 of line tRouterLine of tInterfaceDetail into tRouterAddress
   put char 2 to -2 of tRouterAddress into tRouterAddress
   put "arp " & tRouterAddress into tShellCommand
   put shell(tShellCommand) into tArpReply
   put word 4 of tArpReply into tDefaultRouterAddress
   put tDefaultMACAddress & cr & tDefaultRouterAddress into tLastMACs
   put tLastMACs
end mouseUp


From bogdanoff at me.com  Tue Oct 22 14:39:23 2019
From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 14:39:23 -0400
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <20191022180157.Horde.WuCqs5e3Ic0uGcZmBa65Git@oa.serversignin.com>
References: <20191022180157.Horde.WuCqs5e3Ic0uGcZmBa65Git@oa.serversignin.com>
Message-ID: <C3C127A4-3D48-45D0-817F-0025BAB52203@me.com>

Hi Andrew,

I think the problem is having very many cards?in the thousands, each with text, images, etc.?that I experience slowdowns. The stack taking a long time to open, save, go to cards, and just wanting to freeze for awhile.

When I changed my method to just a few cards with the text and the data used to display it stored in arrays, page loading is lighting fast. Creating fields and buttons, formatting them and filling with text on the fly, then deleting them when I load the next ?page" is really fast. I put images on a web server that I pre-download to memory so they display quickly when needed is also part of the plan. These images could otherwise be stored as files on disk, or in a LC stack. Images in a LC stack can be referenced by using a button and setting its icon to ID of the stored image.

Using these kinds of techniques I went from a 600 MB collection of stacks down 60 MB? 1/3 text and other data, 1/3 images used as thumbnail images embedded in text fields, and 1/3 the LC engine runtime, and I moved several hundred MB of images to the server.

LC is really fast with small stacks, and it?s really convenient just to lay out bunches of cards with stuff, but after  awhile, LC just isn?t fast anymore.

Peter Bogdanoff
artsinteractiveinc.com


> On Oct 22, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Andrew Bell via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 




From phil at pdslabs.net  Tue Oct 22 14:40:04 2019
From: phil at pdslabs.net (Phil Davis)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:40:04 -0700
Subject: Possible solution to determine if default network has changed
 (MacOS only for now)
In-Reply-To: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <6f529474-244c-faef-b80f-3940602e9a5e@pdslabs.net>

I'm guessing you meant "route -v get default" ? Otherwise I don't get 
much back from the command.

Phil Davis


On 10/22/19 11:05 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> MacOS only for now.
>
> I think I put together a way to tell if the default network has changed since the last time an internet connection took place. It's no good of course, just getting the IP address, as given an identical subnet, you have a 1 in 254 change of getting the same IP address on a different network. We want to be absolutely certain.
>
> Similarly, the gateway, subnet mask and DNS might also be identical. Finally, the only adapter we care about is the one that is being used as the default route to the internet or local resources. (there may be more than one active adapter, as in the Ethernet and Wireless adapters).
>
> The trick is to get the MAC address of the router, then store it and compare it each time you attempt to communicate. Here's what I came up with. Feel free to chide me if I am overthinking this:
>
> on mouseUp
>     put "route get default" into tShellCommand
>     put shell(tShellCommand) into tDefaultAdapter
>     put lineOffset("Interface: ", tDefaultAdapter) into tInterfaceLine
>     
>     if tInterfaceLine = 0 then
>        answer info "No default interface found!" as sheet
>        exit mouseUp
>     end if
>     
>     put word 2 of line tInterfaceLine of tDefaultAdapter into tDefaultInterface
>     put "ipconfig getpacket " & tDefaultInterface into tShellCommand
>     put shell(tShellCommand) into tInterfaceDetail
>     put lineOffset("router (ip_mult): ", tInterfaceDetail) into tRouterLine
>     put word 3 of line tRouterLine of tInterfaceDetail into tRouterAddress
>     put char 2 to -2 of tRouterAddress into tRouterAddress
>     put tRouterAddress
>     put "arp " & tRouterAddress into tShellCommand
>     put shell(tShellCommand) into tArpReply
>     put word 4 of tArpReply into tDefaultMACAddress
> end mouseUp
>
> Bob S
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>

-- 
Phil Davis
503-307-4363




From jjs at krutt.org  Tue Oct 22 14:48:38 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (JJS)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:48:38 +0200
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <E8490C5D-7633-47F6-9B83-37319686B689@gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <E8490C5D-7633-47F6-9B83-37319686B689@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <951b469d-42b9-5d84-b23c-2c358c99f8e7@krutt.org>

Everything is crackable.

There was once this version of Cubase 5.1 a audio/midi sequencer, very 
popular among musicians.

People from H2O cracked it. It was protected by a USB dongle.

They used 1500 manhours for it. And most of the time was not in the 
program itself, figuring out when it called the dongle, but on how 
windows handled the dll's to communicate with it.

Eventually they wrote their own dll as software-matic dongle.

They also said that it was the only version they would crack, because of 
the many hours they needed to do it.


Op 22-10-2019 om 20:27 schreef doc hawk via use-livecode:
> On Oct 21, 2019, at 8:02 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a dongle. But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in the scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked to the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that checked the hashes of the scripts ?
>
> ?Those who hashed the hasher, have been hashed!?  ???
>
> Wait, that?s not quite how it goes . . . hmm . . .
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From tom at makeshyft.com  Tue Oct 22 14:57:36 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 14:57:36 -0400
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <951b469d-42b9-5d84-b23c-2c358c99f8e7@krutt.org>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <E8490C5D-7633-47F6-9B83-37319686B689@gmail.com>
 <951b469d-42b9-5d84-b23c-2c358c99f8e7@krutt.org>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLJ6OWaxbF_ByJx1MYrJXRJCwPUL1ZNpWiZ9rkzMxG2p_Q@mail.gmail.com>

yeah... the key is to crank up the difficulty and time investment...much
like decryption...sure...you can decrypt this ....in a billion years!

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 2:49 PM JJS via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Everything is crackable.
>
> There was once this version of Cubase 5.1 a audio/midi sequencer, very
> popular among musicians.
>
> People from H2O cracked it. It was protected by a USB dongle.
>
> They used 1500 manhours for it. And most of the time was not in the
> program itself, figuring out when it called the dongle, but on how
> windows handled the dll's to communicate with it.
>
> Eventually they wrote their own dll as software-matic dongle.
>
> They also said that it was the only version they would crack, because of
> the many hours they needed to do it.
>
>
> Op 22-10-2019 om 20:27 schreef doc hawk via use-livecode:
> > On Oct 21, 2019, at 8:02 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a
> dongle. But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in
> the scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked
> to the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that
> checked the hashes of the scripts ?
> >
> > ?Those who hashed the hasher, have been hashed!?  ???
> >
> > Wait, that?s not quite how it goes . . . hmm . . .
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From sundown at pacifier.com  Tue Oct 22 14:58:55 2019
From: sundown at pacifier.com (JB)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:58:55 -0700
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLJ6OWaxbF_ByJx1MYrJXRJCwPUL1ZNpWiZ9rkzMxG2p_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <E8490C5D-7633-47F6-9B83-37319686B689@gmail.com>
 <951b469d-42b9-5d84-b23c-2c358c99f8e7@krutt.org>
 <CAPzQJLJ6OWaxbF_ByJx1MYrJXRJCwPUL1ZNpWiZ9rkzMxG2p_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E8155BB2-BBEF-4F00-BBB1-8FFEA33271E6@pacifier.com>

And if you tell us what you are going to do
he will never catch on .. ..

JB

> On Oct 22, 2019, at 11:57 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> yeah... the key is to crank up the difficulty and time investment...much
> like decryption...sure...you can decrypt this ....in a billion years!
> 
> On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 2:49 PM JJS via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Everything is crackable.
>> 
>> There was once this version of Cubase 5.1 a audio/midi sequencer, very
>> popular among musicians.
>> 
>> People from H2O cracked it. It was protected by a USB dongle.
>> 
>> They used 1500 manhours for it. And most of the time was not in the
>> program itself, figuring out when it called the dongle, but on how
>> windows handled the dll's to communicate with it.
>> 
>> Eventually they wrote their own dll as software-matic dongle.
>> 
>> They also said that it was the only version they would crack, because of
>> the many hours they needed to do it.
>> 
>> 
>> Op 22-10-2019 om 20:27 schreef doc hawk via use-livecode:
>>> On Oct 21, 2019, at 8:02 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a
>> dongle. But, every call to the dongle was something you could search for in
>> the scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that talked
>> to the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that
>> checked the hashes of the scripts ?
>>> 
>>> ?Those who hashed the hasher, have been hashed!?  ???
>>> 
>>> Wait, that?s not quite how it goes . . . hmm . . .
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From tom at makeshyft.com  Tue Oct 22 15:47:33 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:47:33 -0400
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <E8155BB2-BBEF-4F00-BBB1-8FFEA33271E6@pacifier.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <E8490C5D-7633-47F6-9B83-37319686B689@gmail.com>
 <951b469d-42b9-5d84-b23c-2c358c99f8e7@krutt.org>
 <CAPzQJLJ6OWaxbF_ByJx1MYrJXRJCwPUL1ZNpWiZ9rkzMxG2p_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E8155BB2-BBEF-4F00-BBB1-8FFEA33271E6@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+akkdgykYzH=mP56NpWR5ERSxMFjx2evAUd1WEB8gmrg@mail.gmail.com>

lol... that may be true...cuz i don't think he'll check the mailing list
:)  There is only bragging rights at stake....so i just need to add time to
his workload....but not affect the user experience......i am counting on
his limited willingness to put hours into it.

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 3:02 PM JB via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> And if you tell us what you are going to do
> he will never catch on .. ..
>
> JB
>
> > On Oct 22, 2019, at 11:57 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > yeah... the key is to crank up the difficulty and time investment...much
> > like decryption...sure...you can decrypt this ....in a billion years!
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 2:49 PM JJS via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Everything is crackable.
> >>
> >> There was once this version of Cubase 5.1 a audio/midi sequencer, very
> >> popular among musicians.
> >>
> >> People from H2O cracked it. It was protected by a USB dongle.
> >>
> >> They used 1500 manhours for it. And most of the time was not in the
> >> program itself, figuring out when it called the dongle, but on how
> >> windows handled the dll's to communicate with it.
> >>
> >> Eventually they wrote their own dll as software-matic dongle.
> >>
> >> They also said that it was the only version they would crack, because of
> >> the many hours they needed to do it.
> >>
> >>
> >> Op 22-10-2019 om 20:27 schreef doc hawk via use-livecode:
> >>> On Oct 21, 2019, at 8:02 PM, kee nethery via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>> My wife built a Hypercard stack standalone that was protected by a
> >> dongle. But, every call to the dongle was something you could search
> for in
> >> the scripts. So she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that
> talked
> >> to the dongle. And she had scripts that did hashes of the scripts that
> >> checked the hashes of the scripts ?
> >>>
> >>> ?Those who hashed the hasher, have been hashed!?  ???
> >>>
> >>> Wait, that?s not quite how it goes . . . hmm . . .
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Tom Glod
> > Founder & Developer
> > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > Office:226-706-9339
> > Mobile:226-706-9793
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 22 16:20:47 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:20:47 +0000
Subject: Possible solution to determine if default network has changed
 (MacOS only for now)
In-Reply-To: <6f529474-244c-faef-b80f-3940602e9a5e@pdslabs.net>
References: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
 <6f529474-244c-faef-b80f-3940602e9a5e@pdslabs.net>
Message-ID: <FAE1E386-DEFF-4448-91CA-2E474C939431@iotecdigital.com>

no all I care about is the interface designation which I use in another query later.

Bob S


> On Oct 22, 2019, at 11:40 , Phil Davis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm guessing you meant "route -v get default" ? Otherwise I don't get much back from the command.
> 
> Phil Davis




From dunbarx at aol.com  Tue Oct 22 16:22:56 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:22:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Push Card
In-Reply-To: <C3C127A4-3D48-45D0-817F-0025BAB52203@me.com>
References: <20191022180157.Horde.WuCqs5e3Ic0uGcZmBa65Git@oa.serversignin.com>
 <C3C127A4-3D48-45D0-817F-0025BAB52203@me.com>
Message-ID: <1634219154.3588608.1571775776683@mail.yahoo.com>

I still maintain a HC server stack, accessible by clients over a network, of many thousands of cards. Access to any of them using the "find" command is virtually instantaneous.
It is LC that starts to visibly slow after about 2000 cards.?Someone like Richard or Jacque may know a bit about why that is, but I assume that LC simply carries much more baggage.
It must be remembered that HC was designed to run on a 1MB Mac. Color was out of the question, and the routines for finding stuff was considered revolutionary and was carefully guarded.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Peter Bogdanoff <bogdanoff at me.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2019 2:40 pm
Subject: Re: Push Card

Hi Andrew,

I think the problem is having very many cards?in the thousands, each with text, images, etc.?that I experience slowdowns. The stack taking a long time to open, save, go to cards, and just wanting to freeze for awhile.

When I changed my method to just a few cards with the text and the data used to display it stored in arrays, page loading is lighting fast. Creating fields and buttons, formatting them and filling with text on the fly, then deleting them when I load the next ?page" is really fast. I put images on a web server that I pre-download to memory so they display quickly when needed is also part of the plan. These images could otherwise be stored as files on disk, or in a LC stack. Images in a LC stack can be referenced by using a button and setting its icon to ID of the stored image.

Using these kinds of techniques I went from a 600 MB collection of stacks down 60 MB? 1/3 text and other data, 1/3 images used as thumbnail images embedded in text fields, and 1/3 the LC engine runtime, and I moved several hundred MB of images to the server.

LC is really fast with small stacks, and it?s really convenient just to lay out bunches of cards with stuff, but after? awhile, LC just isn?t fast anymore.

Peter Bogdanoff
artsinteractiveinc.com


> On Oct 22, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Andrew Bell via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 


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Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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From alex at tweedly.net  Tue Oct 22 20:13:31 2019
From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:13:31 +0100
Subject: Possible solution to determine if default network has changed
 (MacOS only for now)
In-Reply-To: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <584d6b9f-0ab7-2678-5d03-6fbc35413821@tweedly.net>

Beware CARP !!?? (or, very similarly, HSRP or VRRP).

In essence, there are a number of routers, which share a single MAC 
address - and it is passed between them (so there is always one active 
router and only it responds to the shared MAC address). Meanwhile they 
each use their own MAC address to run their routing protocols, and the HSRP.

Gives fast, easy and transparent fail-over (but with some pitfalls), so 
AFAIK not very widely used.

Alex.

P.S.? within Cisco, the engineering name for this was CRAP - but 
pressure form the marketing guys changed it, initally to CARP, and then 
to HSRP before it was released.

On 22/10/2019 19:05, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> MacOS only for now.
>
> I think I put together a way to tell if the default network has changed since the last time an internet connection took place. It's no good of course, just getting the IP address, as given an identical subnet, you have a 1 in 254 change of getting the same IP address on a different network. We want to be absolutely certain.
>
> Similarly, the gateway, subnet mask and DNS might also be identical. Finally, the only adapter we care about is the one that is being used as the default route to the internet or local resources. (there may be more than one active adapter, as in the Ethernet and Wireless adapters).
>
> The trick is to get the MAC address of the router, then store it and compare it each time you attempt to communicate. Here's what I came up with. Feel free to chide me if I am overthinking this:
>
> on mouseUp
>     put "route get default" into tShellCommand
>     put shell(tShellCommand) into tDefaultAdapter
>     put lineOffset("Interface: ", tDefaultAdapter) into tInterfaceLine
>     
>     if tInterfaceLine = 0 then
>        answer info "No default interface found!" as sheet
>        exit mouseUp
>     end if
>     
>     put word 2 of line tInterfaceLine of tDefaultAdapter into tDefaultInterface
>     put "ipconfig getpacket " & tDefaultInterface into tShellCommand
>     put shell(tShellCommand) into tInterfaceDetail
>     put lineOffset("router (ip_mult): ", tInterfaceDetail) into tRouterLine
>     put word 3 of line tRouterLine of tInterfaceDetail into tRouterAddress
>     put char 2 to -2 of tRouterAddress into tRouterAddress
>     put tRouterAddress
>     put "arp " & tRouterAddress into tShellCommand
>     put shell(tShellCommand) into tArpReply
>     put word 4 of tArpReply into tDefaultMACAddress
> end mouseUp
>
> Bob S
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au  Tue Oct 22 21:10:17 2019
From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:10:17 +0000
Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
Message-ID: <0B2B1308-2C4B-45CF-8A01-3438BE6F2437@unimelb.edu.au>

I'm printing a whole bunch of PDFs (multipage feedback reports generated by populating a series of cards with individualised data - mix of text and graphics) and it starts off fast and then inevitably slows down - a lot. While it might start off printing say 14 reports per minute after a few minutes it's down to only 2 or 3. When you're printing 350 reports that obviously takes some time. I'm wondering whether there is something I can try to 'clear the pipes' every few minutes to speed the process up a bit? I've had some success in the past splitting the data up into batches and looping through one batch at a time but it would be great (or at least simpler) not having to do that.

Any ideas? I'm on a Mac BTW, so I'm not sure whether this is a cross-platform issue. LC 9.0.5.

Terry...


From thatkeith at mac.com  Wed Oct 23 06:10:54 2019
From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:10:54 +0100
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJL+akkdgykYzH=mP56NpWR5ERSxMFjx2evAUd1WEB8gmrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <E8490C5D-7633-47F6-9B83-37319686B689@gmail.com>
 <951b469d-42b9-5d84-b23c-2c358c99f8e7@krutt.org>
 <CAPzQJLJ6OWaxbF_ByJx1MYrJXRJCwPUL1ZNpWiZ9rkzMxG2p_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <E8155BB2-BBEF-4F00-BBB1-8FFEA33271E6@pacifier.com>
 <CAPzQJL+akkdgykYzH=mP56NpWR5ERSxMFjx2evAUd1WEB8gmrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FB7E17D8-2ADE-4BDC-8F42-551027672049@mac.com>

On 22 Oct 2019, at 20:47, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:

> i am counting on
> his limited willingness to put hours into it.

Either way, it will be absolutely fascinating to read about the outcome. 
Good luck!

k



From thatkeith at mac.com  Wed Oct 23 06:16:30 2019
From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:16:30 +0100
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
Message-ID: <BE59A20F-26EF-41BE-946C-0F6E6EE44FF9@mac.com>

On 22 Oct 2019, at 4:02, kee nethery via use-livecode wrote:

> it would look for Hypercard itself on their disk and start erasing 
> stuff in it

I applaud the ingenuity and totally understand the reasons for her doing 
that, but it should be said that damaging *other* software ? beyond 
the stack itself ? on purpose is a questionable tactic that feels like 
revenge, especially if it's designed to be silent. It is the actions of 
a virus! Not the best grounds to be standing on if this came out and 
lawyers got involved, even if the victim was clearly a thieving hacker.

However, fascinating idea and impressive dedication.

k

From curry at pair.com  Wed Oct 23 08:47:20 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:47:20 -0400
Subject: Death of eSellerate (48-hour, 50%-off) REBIRTH Sale
Message-ID: <0dfc4d49-b30c-7980-9fd7-82eaec191eda@pair.com>


Due to the untimely, or at least inconvenient, demise of an old 
electronic friend (eSellerate) as a separate entity, I have migrated the 
addon store to its parent company (Digital River) and updated the store 
links on the livecodeaddons.com web site.

To commemorate this occasion and launch the updated store, I've issued a 
REBIRTH coupon for half-price on any/all available addons.

Coupon Code: rebirth (50%)

Web Page: http://livecodeaddons.com/ (click Store)

Store URL: http://curryk.com/addon-store

Curry K. LiveCode Addons - First and best - Instant delivery!

Reginfo is shown on the order confirmation web page AND email, so 
there's no waiting; get started today.

I'll take down the Coupon Code in approx 2 days. The Reg Guide is now 
text, rather than PDF. Happy coding....

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

WordLib: Take charge of MS Word and OpenOffice documents
SpreadLib: "Excel-lent" spreadsheet import/export for LC
http://livecodeaddons.com/



From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct 23 08:49:36 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:49:36 -0400
Subject: Signing, Notarizing, and Stapling and macOS versions
Message-ID: <ec09c00c-9ae9-2141-c957-40f521f2eb94@researchware.com>

LiveCode 9xx is supported on macOS Maveriks (10.9) and up

Catalina (10.15) requires Notarized DMG or App to be allowed to open/run

I have discovered that a Notarized and Stapled DMG works on Catalina and 
Mojave (10.14), but presents an error when trying to open on El Capitan 
(10.11).

Does anyone have a definitive list of macOS versions from 10.9 and up by 
signed - notarized - stapled and what works so I don't have to develop 
one myself? I can not find thi at Apple. 10.12 is min OS to "staple" on 
and 10.13 the min to notarize, but that is form a building it, rather 
than using it.

So far I have: [Signed is "code signed only")
OS??? Signed??? Notarized??? Stapled
10.9??? Works??? Untested??? Fails
10.10
10.11
10.12
10.13
10.14 Works??? Works??? Works
10.15 Fails??? Works??? Works

All blanks are untested.




From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Wed Oct 23 09:20:35 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:20:35 +0100
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <BE59A20F-26EF-41BE-946C-0F6E6EE44FF9@mac.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3019BA65-EB2D-4134-8ED2-B3907CFBD915@elloco.com>
 <BE59A20F-26EF-41BE-946C-0F6E6EE44FF9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VAhumjn8x5jC83zix8jDc5Rr-7vfWDa=HMGwyktOhB1XQ@mail.gmail.com>

One other thing about that - it doesn't have to be a thieving hacker.
I wrote a invoicing system for a company years ago (Foxpro for DOS ) and
years later I got
a phone call saying the system was coming up "I'm Melting ...." - I could't
for the life of me
remember why I put that message in. Went to the company and some "clever
sod" was cleaning up the hard disk and deleted some of the
"unused" files in the data directory.

Personally I think your time is wasted putting any protection in other than
name and email and address (say) tied to the system
and if they have been messed with - It's the user either trying to run it
on his laptop (let him) or somebody has taken a copy.
Then wait three months and then tell them there is an error "call this
number" - if it's the user he will phone  for help.
If its a thief - just offer him an "upgrade".

That is how Microsoft ate Lotus's lunch back in the day was $495

Although Multiplan (the precursor of Excel) had protection - Excel did not
(in fact the whole of office did not)
you just put in a serial code or one from a serial code generator. This
allowed Microsoft to get office in the hands of
students and others who did not have the money to spend.
Years later everybody with a "illegal" copy was offered an amnesty and
"upgraded" to a legitimate version of office for ?65 if memory serves.

The upshot is EVERYTHING can be broken. Back in the apple 2 days it was
more fun to crack the disk protection than play some of the games.
The disk protection routines got so clever that one of the disk copier
utilities built in a 6502 emulator so you could single step the code of the
bootloaders
and patch that part of the disk.

Finally we got "Snapshot" that was hardware that allowed the saving of all
the memory to disk (later copied for the spectrum and c64)

Happy days ...
https://www.bigmessowires.com/2015/08/27/apple-ii-copy-protection/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17256709
https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Books/Beneath%20Apple%20DOS.pdf



Regards Lagi


On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 11:17, Keith Martin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 22 Oct 2019, at 4:02, kee nethery via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > it would look for Hypercard itself on their disk and start erasing
> > stuff in it
>
> I applaud the ingenuity and totally understand the reasons for her doing
> that, but it should be said that damaging *other* software ? beyond
> the stack itself ? on purpose is a questionable tactic that feels like
> revenge, especially if it's designed to be silent. It is the actions of
> a virus! Not the best grounds to be standing on if this came out and
> lawyers got involved, even if the victim was clearly a thieving hacker.
>
> However, fascinating idea and impressive dedication.
>
> k
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From dunbarx at aol.com  Wed Oct 23 09:52:38 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:52:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
In-Reply-To: <0B2B1308-2C4B-45CF-8A01-3438BE6F2437@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <0B2B1308-2C4B-45CF-8A01-3438BE6F2437@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1176074858.3872837.1571838758102@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi.
Are you repeatedly using "open printing to PDF"?
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Judd via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Terry Judd <terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au>
Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2019 9:11 pm
Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop

I'm printing a whole bunch of PDFs (multipage feedback reports generated by populating a series of cards with individualised data - mix of text and graphics) and it starts off fast and then inevitably slows down - a lot. While it might start off printing say 14 reports per minute after a few minutes it's down to only 2 or 3. When you're printing 350 reports that obviously takes some time. I'm wondering whether there is something I can try to 'clear the pipes' every few minutes to speed the process up a bit? I've had some success in the past splitting the data up into batches and looping through one batch at a time but it would be great (or at least simpler) not having to do that.

Any ideas? I'm on a Mac BTW, so I'm not sure whether this is a cross-platform issue. LC 9.0.5.

Terry...

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 23 11:10:23 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:10:23 +0000
Subject: Possible solution to determine if default network has changed
 (MacOS only for now)
In-Reply-To: <584d6b9f-0ab7-2678-5d03-6fbc35413821@tweedly.net>
References: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
 <584d6b9f-0ab7-2678-5d03-6fbc35413821@tweedly.net>
Message-ID: <F26DB9C2-A4D6-4562-87AC-A9C659587816@iotecdigital.com>

Yeah, I won't be able to accomodate load balancing and failover, but the vast majority of situations where the network has changed and LC and sqlYoga doesn't know about it should be taken care of. 

Essentially my strategy is to save the node and router MAC addresses in a property of the database utilities behavior button I use, then check it each time I attempt to open a connection to the SQL database. This in addition to checking the availability of the SQL database by telnetting to it with the SQL port used. 

All this to preclude the issue where attempting to connect to a non-responsive SQL server ends up causing a 1 minute delay because apparently that's the timeout. 

Bob S


> On Oct 22, 2019, at 17:13 , Alex Tweedly via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Beware CARP !!   (or, very similarly, HSRP or VRRP).
> 
> In essence, there are a number of routers, which share a single MAC address - and it is passed between them (so there is always one active router and only it responds to the shared MAC address). Meanwhile they each use their own MAC address to run their routing protocols, and the HSRP.
> 
> Gives fast, easy and transparent fail-over (but with some pitfalls), so AFAIK not very widely used.
> 
> Alex.
> 
> P.S.  within Cisco, the engineering name for this was CRAP - but pressure form the marketing guys changed it, initally to CARP, and then to HSRP before it was released.




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 23 12:05:56 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:05:56 +0000
Subject: Windows Command Line Silent Option
Message-ID: <F722B40D-69E5-44CC-9ADB-93508236D42B@iotecdigital.com>

Hi all. 

Shell is great, but on Windows when a shell call is made it shows a command window briefly. This has the effect of freaking end users right out of their minds. For all they know, hackers are breaking in and stealing all their secrets. 

Is there a way to run shell commands without that annoying window popping up? If not, I can submit a feature request, because without that shell on Windows is a complete no go. 

Bob S




From klaus at major-k.de  Wed Oct 23 12:08:29 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:08:29 +0200
Subject: Windows Command Line Silent Option
In-Reply-To: <F722B40D-69E5-44CC-9ADB-93508236D42B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <F722B40D-69E5-44CC-9ADB-93508236D42B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <92BC752B-8DA9-4530-BF04-20B299E73684@major-k.de>

Hi Bob,

> Am 23.10.2019 um 18:05 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hi all. 
> 
> Shell is great, but on Windows when a shell call is made it shows a command window briefly. This has the effect of freaking end users right out of their minds. For all they know, hackers are breaking in and stealing all their secrets. 
> 
> Is there a way to run shell commands without that annoying window popping up? If not, I can submit a feature request, because without that shell on Windows is a complete no go. 

...
set the hideconsolewindows to TRUE
## Do you Win shell stuff here...
...

> Bob S

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 23 12:09:01 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:09:01 +0000
Subject: Windows Command Line Silent Option
In-Reply-To: <F722B40D-69E5-44CC-9ADB-93508236D42B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <F722B40D-69E5-44CC-9ADB-93508236D42B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <3AF1B189-2981-4038-A8D5-223D580223C0@iotecdigital.com>

Whoops! Never mind. Read dictionary FIRST, not LAST. 

To prevent a console window from appearing when the shell command is executed, set the hideConsoleWindows property to true.


Bob S

> On Oct 23, 2019, at 09:05 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all. 
> 
> Shell is great, but on Windows when a shell call is made it shows a command window briefly. This has the effect of freaking end users right out of their minds. For all they know, hackers are breaking in and stealing all their secrets. 
> 
> Is there a way to run shell commands without that annoying window popping up? If not, I can submit a feature request, because without that shell on Windows is a complete no go. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 23 12:09:31 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:09:31 +0000
Subject: Windows Command Line Silent Option
In-Reply-To: <92BC752B-8DA9-4530-BF04-20B299E73684@major-k.de>
References: <F722B40D-69E5-44CC-9ADB-93508236D42B@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BC752B-8DA9-4530-BF04-20B299E73684@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <1BDE0633-3573-45DD-83A3-205750FACBE2@iotecdigital.com>

Thanks Klaus yer too fast for me. :-)

Bob S 

> On Oct 23, 2019, at 09:08 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
>> Am 23.10.2019 um 18:05 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Hi all. 
>> 
>> Shell is great, but on Windows when a shell call is made it shows a command window briefly. This has the effect of freaking end users right out of their minds. For all they know, hackers are breaking in and stealing all their secrets. 
>> 
>> Is there a way to run shell commands without that annoying window popping up? If not, I can submit a feature request, because without that shell on Windows is a complete no go. 
> 
> ...
> set the hideconsolewindows to TRUE
> ## Do you Win shell stuff here...
> ...
> 
>> Bob S
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> 
> --
> Klaus Major




From roland.huettmann at gmail.com  Wed Oct 23 12:28:44 2019
From: roland.huettmann at gmail.com (R.H.)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:28:44 +0200
Subject: RE Video Player LiveCode on Windows
Message-ID: <CAG1Q0g8APqmXdU7XhcrBWDV0okAEd16okHAz3dcBkyYo43tQTA@mail.gmail.com>

@ Paul Dupuis

Thank you very much, Paul, for your detailed answer. I removed my other
Codec package and installed the LAV package as recommended by you. It works
well! Great. All the videos I have in MP4, etc. are playing now. This makes
me happy.

But the other biggest problem:

My IDE starts hanging (Windows 64, Version Indy 9.05 and 9.5) when working
with the player and being in edit mode, mainly using the script editor.
This happens all the time. There is no exact recipe. After some time, I
already notice LC is slowing down (it takes long time for anything to
happen) , and soon after that all freezes, and then I have to force-quit
and restart all over again.

As long as the user mode is on and as long as the player is just playing,
it seems to be ok . Except, of course, there is a huge bug list that you
mentioned.

If anybody else has experienced hanging/freezing LiveCode using the player
in edit mode, I would then create a but report because I could not find a
similar report there. Unfortunately, there is no very clear recipe yet.

Roland


From bogdanoff at me.com  Wed Oct 23 12:43:21 2019
From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 12:43:21 -0400
Subject: RE Video Player LiveCode on Windows
In-Reply-To: <CAG1Q0g8APqmXdU7XhcrBWDV0okAEd16okHAz3dcBkyYo43tQTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1Q0g8APqmXdU7XhcrBWDV0okAEd16okHAz3dcBkyYo43tQTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D25AC42-0413-492A-B01E-A791860329FB@me.com>

Roland,

You might try setting filename of the player to empty before going to edit mode (catching the editScript message). In the past, if a player couldn?t find the referenced file it often causes LC to freeze or slow way down, similarly to what you?re reporting.

Peter Bogdanoff
ArtsInteractive


> On Oct 23, 2019, at 12:28 PM, R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> @ Paul Dupuis
> 
> Thank you very much, Paul, for your detailed answer. I removed my other
> Codec package and installed the LAV package as recommended by you. It works
> well! Great. All the videos I have in MP4, etc. are playing now. This makes
> me happy.
> 
> But the other biggest problem:
> 
> My IDE starts hanging (Windows 64, Version Indy 9.05 and 9.5) when working
> with the player and being in edit mode, mainly using the script editor.
> This happens all the time. There is no exact recipe. After some time, I
> already notice LC is slowing down (it takes long time for anything to
> happen) , and soon after that all freezes, and then I have to force-quit
> and restart all over again.
> 
> As long as the user mode is on and as long as the player is just playing,
> it seems to be ok . Except, of course, there is a huge bug list that you
> mentioned.
> 
> If anybody else has experienced hanging/freezing LiveCode using the player
> in edit mode, I would then create a but report because I could not find a
> similar report there. Unfortunately, there is no very clear recipe yet.
> 
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 23 12:48:32 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:48:32 +0000
Subject: Function to return Default Adapter Info
In-Reply-To: <F26DB9C2-A4D6-4562-87AC-A9C659587816@iotecdigital.com>
References: <5BF2DD29-EB84-465C-A26B-C8548570ED2D@iotecdigital.com>
 <584d6b9f-0ab7-2678-5d03-6fbc35413821@tweedly.net>
 <F26DB9C2-A4D6-4562-87AC-A9C659587816@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <DD622640-F5DB-45AF-BC6A-F1F644FA0025@iotecdigital.com>

Hi all. 

Now works with Windows! Also, I realized that it's possible to get a new DHCP lease, in which case any prior connections would be invalid, so now the function returns the default adapter IP and MAC address on the fist line, and the default router IP and MAC address on the second line. If this isn't the same between sessions, the network has changed, so reset your connection. Enjoy! 

function getDefaultNetwork pMode
   -- leave pMode empty for just IP and MAC info. Pass "Detail" to get more info
   if the platform contains "WIN" then 
      set hideConsoleWindows to true
      put "netsh interface ip show config" into tShellCommand
      put shell(tShellCommand) into tDefaultAdapter
      
      -- if pMode is detail just return these results
      if pMode is "Detail" then return tDefaultAdapter
      
      -- get the default adapter and Gateway IP addresses
      put lineOffset("IP Address:", tDefaultAdapter) into tIPAddressLine
      put word -1 of line tIPAddressLine of tDefaultAdapter into tLocalIPAddress
      put lineOffset("Default Gateway:", tDefaultAdapter)  into tGWAddressLine
      put word -1 of line tGWAddressLine of tDefaultAdapter into tGWIPAddress
      
      -- get the default adapter and gateway MAC addresses
      put "ipconfig /all" into tShellCommand
      put shell(tShellCommand) into tConfigData
      put lineOffset(tLocalIPAddress, tConfigData) -3 into tLocalMACLine
      put word -1 of line tLocalMACLine of tConfigData into tLocalMACAddress
      put "arp -a" into tShellCommand
      put shell(tShellCommand) into tArpData
      put lineOffset(tGWIPAddress, tArpData) into tGWMACAddressLine
      put word 2 of line tGWMACAddressLine of tArpData into tGWMACAddress
      
      put tLocalIPAddress && tLocalMACAddress & cr & \
            tGWIPAddress && tGWMACAddress into tCurrentAdapterInfo
   else
      -- first we need to get the default adapter
      put "route get default" into tShellCommand
      put shell(tShellCommand) into tDefaultAdapter
      put lineOffset("Interface: ", tDefaultAdapter) into tInterfaceLine
      
      if tInterfaceLine = 0 then 
         return "ERROR: No default interface found!"
      end if
      
      -- now we need the detail of the interface
      put word 2 of line tInterfaceLine of tDefaultAdapter into tDefaultInterface
      put "ipconfig getpacket " & tDefaultInterface into tShellCommand
      put shell(tShellCommand) into tInterfaceDetail
      
      -- if we didn't specifically ask for the interface and router MAC addresses, return here
      if pMode is "Detail" then return tInterfaceDetail
      
      -- now we get  the interface MAC address
      put lineOffset("chaddr", tInterfaceDetail) into tInterfaceMACLine
      put word -1 of line tInterfaceMACLine of tInterfaceDetail into tDefaultMACAddress
      
      -- and the IP address
      put lineOffset("yiaddr", tInterfaceDetail) into tInterfaceIPLine
      put word -1 of line tInterfaceIPLine of tInterfaceDetail into tDefaultIPAddress
      
      -- next we get the router IP address
      put lineOffset("router (ip_mult): ", tInterfaceDetail) into tRouterLine
      put word 3 of line tRouterLine of tInterfaceDetail into tRouterIPAddress
      put char 2 to -2 of tRouterIPAddress into tRouterIPAddress
      
      -- next we get the MAC address of the router interface
      put "arp " & tRouterIPAddress into tShellCommand
      put shell(tShellCommand) into tArpReply
      put word 4 of tArpReply into tRouterMACAddress
      
      -- finally we return the MAC addresses of the default interface and the router interface
      put tDefaultIPAddress && tDefaultMACAddress & cr & \
            tRouterIPAddress && tRouterMACAddress into tCurrentAdapterInfo
   end if
   
   return tCurrentAdapterInfo
end getDefaultNetwork


From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct 23 13:08:23 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:08:23 -0400
Subject: RE Video Player LiveCode on Windows
In-Reply-To: <5D25AC42-0413-492A-B01E-A791860329FB@me.com>
References: <CAG1Q0g8APqmXdU7XhcrBWDV0okAEd16okHAz3dcBkyYo43tQTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5D25AC42-0413-492A-B01E-A791860329FB@me.com>
Message-ID: <0cf30edc-9abf-2a82-8e44-3768c0eb45f2@researchware.com>

I concur with Peter's suggestion.

Using LC9.0.5 RELEASE, I have not seen crashes when editing stacks with 
player objects or changing player properties. LC9.0.5rc1 and LC9.5.0 
RELEASE have bugs that can crash the IDE while debugging.

However, in our two applications that use the player object, the player 
is generally not set to any video (filename is empty) while editing.

-- Paul

On 10/23/2019 12:43 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote:
> Roland,
>
> You might try setting filename of the player to empty before going to edit mode (catching the editScript message). In the past, if a player couldn?t find the referenced file it often causes LC to freeze or slow way down, similarly to what you?re reporting.
>
> Peter Bogdanoff
> ArtsInteractive
>
>
>> On Oct 23, 2019, at 12:28 PM, R.H. via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> @ Paul Dupuis
>>
>> Thank you very much, Paul, for your detailed answer. I removed my other
>> Codec package and installed the LAV package as recommended by you. It works
>> well! Great. All the videos I have in MP4, etc. are playing now. This makes
>> me happy.
>>
>> But the other biggest problem:
>>
>> My IDE starts hanging (Windows 64, Version Indy 9.05 and 9.5) when working
>> with the player and being in edit mode, mainly using the script editor.
>> This happens all the time. There is no exact recipe. After some time, I
>> already notice LC is slowing down (it takes long time for anything to
>> happen) , and soon after that all freezes, and then I have to force-quit
>> and restart all over again.
>>
>> As long as the user mode is on and as long as the player is just playing,
>> it seems to be ok . Except, of course, there is a huge bug list that you
>> mentioned.
>>
>> If anybody else has experienced hanging/freezing LiveCode using the player
>> in edit mode, I would then create a but report because I could not find a
>> similar report there. Unfortunately, there is no very clear recipe yet.
>>
>> Roland
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Wed Oct 23 13:19:48 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 12:19:48 -0500
Subject: RE Video Player LiveCode on Windows
In-Reply-To: <CAG1Q0g8APqmXdU7XhcrBWDV0okAEd16okHAz3dcBkyYo43tQTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1Q0g8APqmXdU7XhcrBWDV0okAEd16okHAz3dcBkyYo43tQTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16df9a1b720.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

I don't think this is a player problem, it's a script editor issue. The 
slowdown has been reported before, mostly on Windows, but yesterday I had 
the identical problem on Mac. Editing slows to a crawl until finally the 
IDE locks up and you're forced to force quit.

To avoid losing work, restart LC when you see the editor begin to be 
unresponsive. That's not a great solution but it solves things for a while.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 23, 2019 11:31:11 AM "R.H. via use-livecode" 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> @ Paul Dupuis
>
> Thank you very much, Paul, for your detailed answer. I removed my other
> Codec package and installed the LAV package as recommended by you. It works
> well! Great. All the videos I have in MP4, etc. are playing now. This makes
> me happy.
>
> But the other biggest problem:
>
> My IDE starts hanging (Windows 64, Version Indy 9.05 and 9.5) when working
> with the player and being in edit mode, mainly using the script editor.
> This happens all the time. There is no exact recipe. After some time, I
> already notice LC is slowing down (it takes long time for anything to
> happen) , and soon after that all freezes, and then I have to force-quit
> and restart all over again.
>
> As long as the user mode is on and as long as the player is just playing,
> it seems to be ok . Except, of course, there is a huge bug list that you
> mentioned.
>
> If anybody else has experienced hanging/freezing LiveCode using the player
> in edit mode, I would then create a but report because I could not find a
> similar report there. Unfortunately, there is no very clear recipe yet.
>
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au  Wed Oct 23 14:57:17 2019
From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:57:17 +0000
Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
In-Reply-To: <1176074858.3872837.1571838758102@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1176074858.3872837.1571838758102@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0E0CB266-63FC-47A3-A589-10459E20B9F8@unimelb.edu.au>

Hi Craig - yes, I open and close printing for each report. I might be wrong (I?ve been using variations of the same printing routine for ages) but I seem to recall that I was unable to successfully or reliably create separate reports unless I closed printing after each one.

Terry...

Sent from my iPad

> On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:53 am, dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Hi.
> Are you repeatedly using "open printing to PDF"?
> Craig
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Judd via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Terry Judd <terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2019 9:11 pm
> Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
> 
> I'm printing a whole bunch of PDFs (multipage feedback reports generated by populating a series of cards with individualised data - mix of text and graphics) and it starts off fast and then inevitably slows down - a lot. While it might start off printing say 14 reports per minute after a few minutes it's down to only 2 or 3. When you're printing 350 reports that obviously takes some time. I'm wondering whether there is something I can try to 'clear the pipes' every few minutes to speed the process up a bit? I've had some success in the past splitting the data up into batches and looping through one batch at a time but it would be great (or at least simpler) not having to do that.
> 
> Any ideas? I'm on a Mac BTW, so I'm not sure whether this is a cross-platform issue. LC 9.0.5.
> 
> Terry...
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 

From dunbarx at aol.com  Wed Oct 23 16:15:21 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:15:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
In-Reply-To: <0E0CB266-63FC-47A3-A589-10459E20B9F8@unimelb.edu.au>
References: <1176074858.3872837.1571838758102@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0E0CB266-63FC-47A3-A589-10459E20B9F8@unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <290140078.4037337.1571861721514@mail.yahoo.com>

Terry.
Do this. Should be instantaneous:
on?mouseUprepeat?with?y =?1?to?5put?yourPathName?&& y?into?jobPathopen?printing?to?pdf (jobPath &?".pdf")print?this?cardend?repeatclose?printingend?mouseUp
You should get five PDF's in a flash.
Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Judd via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Terry Judd <terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au>
Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2019 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop

Hi Craig - yes, I open and close printing for each report. I might be wrong (I?ve been using variations of the same printing routine for ages) but I seem to recall that I was unable to successfully or reliably create separate reports unless I closed printing after each one.

Terry...

Sent from my iPad

> On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:53 am, dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Hi.
> Are you repeatedly using "open printing to PDF"?
> Craig
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Judd via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Terry Judd <terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2019 9:11 pm
> Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
> 
> I'm printing a whole bunch of PDFs (multipage feedback reports generated by populating a series of cards with individualised data - mix of text and graphics) and it starts off fast and then inevitably slows down - a lot. While it might start off printing say 14 reports per minute after a few minutes it's down to only 2 or 3. When you're printing 350 reports that obviously takes some time. I'm wondering whether there is something I can try to 'clear the pipes' every few minutes to speed the process up a bit? I've had some success in the past splitting the data up into batches and looping through one batch at a time but it would be great (or at least simpler) not having to do that.
> 
> Any ideas? I'm on a Mac BTW, so I'm not sure whether this is a cross-platform issue. LC 9.0.5.
> 
> Terry...
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 23 16:26:41 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:26:41 +0000
Subject: Guaranteed crash to desktop!
Message-ID: <30DB5F21-3F89-44EE-A4C9-E3450FADD0D2@iotecdigital.com>

Hi all. 

This is really obscure, but if you want to try it you can. On MacOS open script editor, then copy the path to a file from the get info dialog. Paste that part. It has little right arrow icons for the path separators. click after one of these little gremlins. Backspace. Voila! Crash to Desktop guaranteed!

I suspect the desired behavior would be to convert the wierd path of the file to a proper path but that is probably expecting too much from the Script Editor. It doesn't bother me, I just thought it was a curious behavior. 

Bob S




From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct 23 16:29:15 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:29:15 -0400
Subject: AW: Signing, Notarizing, and Stapling and macOS versions
In-Reply-To: <ec09c00c-9ae9-2141-c957-40f521f2eb94@researchware.com>
References: <ec09c00c-9ae9-2141-c957-40f521f2eb94@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <5a8583c5-3d82-f3f4-df9a-03748369527b@researchware.com>

On 10/23/2019 8:49 AM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote:
> LiveCode 9xx is supported on macOS Maveriks (10.9) and up
>
> Catalina (10.15) requires Notarized DMG or App to be allowed to open/run
>
> I have discovered that a Notarized and Stapled DMG works on Catalina 
> and Mojave (10.14), but presents an error when trying to open on El 
> Capitan (10.11).
>
> Does anyone have a definitive list of macOS versions from 10.9 and up 
> by signed - notarized - stapled and what works so I don't have to 
> develop one myself? I can not find thi at Apple. 10.12 is min OS to 
> "staple" on and 10.13 the min to notarize, but that is form a building 
> it, rather than using it.
>
> So far I have: [Signed is "code signed only")
> OS??? Signed??? Notarized??? Stapled
> 10.9??? Works??? Untested??? Fails
> 10.10
> 10.11
> 10.12
> 10.13
> 10.14 Works??? Works??? Works
> 10.15 Fails??? Works??? Works
>
> All blanks are untested.

Here are the results for anyone interested:

macOS name??????? signed notarized stapled
10.9? Mavricks??? OK???? FAIL????? FAIL
10.10 Yosemite??? OK???? FAIL????? FAIL
10.11 El Capitan? OK??? ?FAIL????? FAIL
10.12 Sierra????? OK???? OK??????? OK
10.13 High Sierra OK???? OK??????? OK
10.14 Mojave????? OK???? OK??????? OK
10.15 Catalina??? *????? OK??????? OK

* A signed DMG opens, but any Apps in the DMG present a the notice that 
Apple can't validate the security of the app. A Notarized or Notarized 
and Staples DMG can be opened and any Signed apps (but the Apps 
themselves do not need to be Notarized) can be opened from within the DMG

What this means for anyone distributing macOS apps outside the MacApp 
store is that you probably need to offer 2 different DNG downloads for 
macOS users:
a signed (or even unsigned DMG (with your signed App in it) for 10-9 
through 10.11
and
a signed, notarized, (and optionally stapled), DMG with your code signed 
app in it for 10.12 through 10.15

OR you could do the 1st for 10.9 through 10.14 and just a separate one 
for 10.15.




From paul at researchware.com  Wed Oct 23 16:30:38 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:38 -0400
Subject: Death of eSellerate (48-hour, 50%-off) REBIRTH Sale
In-Reply-To: <0dfc4d49-b30c-7980-9fd7-82eaec191eda@pair.com>
References: <0dfc4d49-b30c-7980-9fd7-82eaec191eda@pair.com>
Message-ID: <2769cae6-a41b-5cd1-36ff-3e176cf5eae8@researchware.com>

On 10/23/2019 8:47 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:
>
> Due to the untimely, or at least inconvenient, demise of an old 
> electronic friend (eSellerate) as a separate entity, I have migrated 
> the addon store to its parent company (Digital River) and updated the 
> store links on the livecodeaddons.com web site.
>
> To commemorate this occasion and launch the updated store, I've issued 
> a REBIRTH coupon for half-price on any/all available addons.
>
> Coupon Code: rebirth (50%)
>
> Web Page: http://livecodeaddons.com/ (click Store)
>
> Store URL: http://curryk.com/addon-store
>
> Curry K. LiveCode Addons - First and best - Instant delivery!
>
> Reginfo is shown on the order confirmation web page AND email, so 
> there's no waiting; get started today.
>
> I'll take down the Coupon Code in approx 2 days. The Reg Guide is now 
> text, rather than PDF. Happy coding....
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Curry Kenworthy
>
> WordLib: Take charge of MS Word and OpenOffice documents
> SpreadLib: "Excel-lent" spreadsheet import/export for LC
> http://livecodeaddons.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
Nice deal!




From klaus at major-k.de  Wed Oct 23 16:42:34 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:42:34 +0200
Subject: Guaranteed crash to desktop!
In-Reply-To: <30DB5F21-3F89-44EE-A4C9-E3450FADD0D2@iotecdigital.com>
References: <30DB5F21-3F89-44EE-A4C9-E3450FADD0D2@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <2C48EF8F-EB67-4362-BF5D-E1CE180F8B83@major-k.de>

Hi Bob,

> Am 23.10.2019 um 22:26 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hi all. 
> 
> This is really obscure, but if you want to try it you can. On MacOS open script editor, then copy the path to a file from the get info dialog. Paste that part. It has little right arrow icons for the path separators. click after one of these little gremlins. Backspace. Voila! Crash to Desktop guaranteed!

No crash here, can I get my money back? 8-)
macOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5.0.

> I suspect the desired behavior would be to convert the wierd path of the file to a proper path but that is probably expecting too much from the Script Editor. It doesn't bother me, I just thought it was a curious behavior. 
> 
> Bob S

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 23 16:58:07 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:58:07 +0000
Subject: Guaranteed crash to desktop!
In-Reply-To: <2C48EF8F-EB67-4362-BF5D-E1CE180F8B83@major-k.de>
References: <30DB5F21-3F89-44EE-A4C9-E3450FADD0D2@iotecdigital.com>
 <2C48EF8F-EB67-4362-BF5D-E1CE180F8B83@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <D9B98FDA-270D-40F9-B71B-5A318C9E7E5A@iotecdigital.com>

Wow! How odd... I'm using the same OS and version. 

Bob S


> On Oct 23, 2019, at 13:42 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
>> Am 23.10.2019 um 22:26 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Hi all. 
>> 
>> This is really obscure, but if you want to try it you can. On MacOS open script editor, then copy the path to a file from the get info dialog. Paste that part. It has little right arrow icons for the path separators. click after one of these little gremlins. Backspace. Voila! Crash to Desktop guaranteed!
> 
> No crash here, can I get my money back? 8-)
> macOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5.0.
> 
>> I suspect the desired behavior would be to convert the wierd path of the file to a proper path but that is probably expecting too much from the Script Editor. It doesn't bother me, I just thought it was a curious behavior. 
>> 
>> Bob S
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> 
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de




From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au  Wed Oct 23 17:16:13 2019
From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 21:16:13 +0000
Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
In-Reply-To: <290140078.4037337.1571861721514@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1176074858.3872837.1571838758102@mail.yahoo.com>
 <0E0CB266-63FC-47A3-A589-10459E20B9F8@unimelb.edu.au>
 <290140078.4037337.1571861721514@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C425F33F-57A0-41F5-8EC6-697ED63AD60B@unimelb.edu.au>

Hi Craig - nah, just tried and doesn't work in my situation. I'm creating multipage PDFs which requires the use of "print break" between each card, and if I don't "close printing" between reports the PDFs are corrupted (I suspect only one page of each reports gets printed and then something goes awry). I think I'll try automating a batch-based approach.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Terry...

?On 24/10/19, 7:16 am, "use-livecode on behalf of dunbarx--- via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Terry.
    Do this. Should be instantaneous:
    on mouseUprepeat with y = 1 to 5put yourPathName && y into jobPathopen printing to pdf (jobPath & ".pdf")print this cardend repeatclose printingend mouseUp
    You should get five PDF's in a flash.
    Craig
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Terry Judd via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
    To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
    Cc: Terry Judd <terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au>
    Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2019 2:58 pm
    Subject: Re: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
    
    Hi Craig - yes, I open and close printing for each report. I might be wrong (I?ve been using variations of the same printing routine for ages) but I seem to recall that I was unable to successfully or reliably create separate reports unless I closed printing after each one.
    
    Terry...
    
    Sent from my iPad
    
    > On 24 Oct 2019, at 12:53 am, dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    > 
    > Hi.
    > Are you repeatedly using "open printing to PDF"?
    > Craig
    > 
    > 
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Terry Judd via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
    > To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
    > Cc: Terry Judd <terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au>
    > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2019 9:11 pm
    > Subject: Slowdown when printing to PDF in a loop
    > 
    > I'm printing a whole bunch of PDFs (multipage feedback reports generated by populating a series of cards with individualised data - mix of text and graphics) and it starts off fast and then inevitably slows down - a lot. While it might start off printing say 14 reports per minute after a few minutes it's down to only 2 or 3. When you're printing 350 reports that obviously takes some time. I'm wondering whether there is something I can try to 'clear the pipes' every few minutes to speed the process up a bit? I've had some success in the past splitting the data up into batches and looping through one batch at a time but it would be great (or at least simpler) not having to do that.
    > 
    > Any ideas? I'm on a Mac BTW, so I'm not sure whether this is a cross-platform issue. LC 9.0.5.
    > 
    > Terry...
    > 
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    > 
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    
    


From hh at hyperhh.de  Wed Oct 23 22:35:56 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 04:35:56 +0200
Subject: PDF-Tools
Message-ID: <3DFC7AF3-93DC-4C70-9B93-B6FBC698B1EF@hyperhh.de>

PDF-Tools_v109, updated to v110 (Mac only)

[Tested to run with LC 8.1.10/9.0.5/9.5.0
on MacOS 10.12.6/10.13.6/ 10.14.6/10.15.]

Download PDF-Tools v110 from SampleStacks or
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/951/

Added option to use a SVG Icon on the output pages.

You can set width (resizes proportional), borderwidth,
fillColor, borderColor, x-offset, y-offset and (initial)
position on page: topLeft, topCenter, topRight, botLeft,
botCenter and botRight.

In the stack are the built-in LC-icons (SVG widget) and
additional 969 material-design-cons available. Use your
own icon by setting the iconPath of a SVG widget.



From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 24 07:07:11 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 12:07:11 +0100
Subject: PDF-Tools
In-Reply-To: <3DFC7AF3-93DC-4C70-9B93-B6FBC698B1EF@hyperhh.de>
References: <3DFC7AF3-93DC-4C70-9B93-B6FBC698B1EF@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VBMv5KPgQYOeNhPaRWF6H0m52hV=_qyPGUQSZ+gEid9Fw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Hermann

You are a one man Livecode extension factory  doing the whole community a
great  favour by adding
missing elements with one arm tied behind your back and blindfolded.

 I hope LCHQ is reading this  and might find some time to make your life
easier by fixing the deficiencies in the browser widget
that limits this library to MacOS. It would also be nice if  resources
could be allocated (sooner rather than later) to fix the problems
you and Sean have been "working around" on the  HTML5 orphaned/ugly
child/forgotten about/unloved (take your pick)  project.

I presume you have posted what the  deficiencies are in the widget? If LCHQ
could fix these,  major elements could
be added the way you are doing with other JS libraries.

I have a feeling of Deja-Vu again ....

Regards Lagi

p.s.

Just so it's not all doom and gloom I can confirm that 9.05 stable does not
crash for days (if at all)
compared to 9.5 STABLE!! which crashed every time I thought of single
stepping ....


On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 03:37, hh via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> PDF-Tools_v109, updated to v110 (Mac only)
>
> [Tested to run with LC 8.1.10/9.0.5/9.5.0
> on MacOS 10.12.6/10.13.6/ 10.14.6/10.15.]
>
> Download PDF-Tools v110 from SampleStacks or
> http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/951/
>
> Added option to use a SVG Icon on the output pages.
>
> You can set width (resizes proportional), borderwidth,
> fillColor, borderColor, x-offset, y-offset and (initial)
> position on page: topLeft, topCenter, topRight, botLeft,
> botCenter and botRight.
>
> In the stack are the built-in LC-icons (SVG widget) and
> additional 969 material-design-cons available. Use your
> own icon by setting the iconPath of a SVG widget.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From kevin at livecode.com  Thu Oct 24 08:56:41 2019
From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:56:41 +0100
Subject: [OT] Personal project
Message-ID: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>

Hi folks,

This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link to it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.

Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based on my experiences:
http://annihilatedepression.com 

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself
 





From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct 24 10:00:46 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:00:46 -0400
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
References: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLKmfpF+c-11ZeRzgHwGf3u9vRKw00X-QVoaRBc3dMAuYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Tons of respect for creating that. Lots of people suffer from it, and the
more tools and testimonials we have the better.

Great site as well!

On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 8:57 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly
> LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link
> to it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.
>
> Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based
> on my experiences:
> http://annihilatedepression.com
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct 24 10:02:41 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:02:41 -0400
Subject: CEF Browser woes! no console.
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLKSpmzpH=QOeXkFVRexEDYWMMj-NK-ke9Znb5h==Kk=iA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi peeps, how can I find out why http://sound.garden does not work using
the CEF widget on (tested on windows)??

Amazing site btw.

-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From jjs at krutt.org  Thu Oct 24 10:33:19 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 16:33:19 +0200
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKmfpF+c-11ZeRzgHwGf3u9vRKw00X-QVoaRBc3dMAuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
 <CAPzQJLKmfpF+c-11ZeRzgHwGf3u9vRKw00X-QVoaRBc3dMAuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <80501F3D-8AE1-4FB2-A966-3A143052C6B9@krutt.org>

Very good! My wife has suffered for years with depression and social anxiety. Good to share knowledge about this, which is not recognised enough by people until it hits themselves.

Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 24 oktober 2019 16:00:46 CEST:
>Tons of respect for creating that. Lots of people suffer from it, and
>the
>more tools and testimonials we have the better.
>
>Great site as well!
>
>On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 8:57 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not
>strictly
>> LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a
>link
>> to it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.
>>
>> Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression
>based
>> on my experiences:
>> http://annihilatedepression.com
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Tom Glod
>Founder & Developer
>MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
>Office:226-706-9339
>Mobile:226-706-9793
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Thu Oct 24 10:45:31 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:45:31 -0400
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
References: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <002e01d58a79$b21fc4c0$165f4e40$@net>

Kevin,

Thanks for sharing, very inspirational. I have a family member with
depression so I have seen what depression can do(or not do) for a person's
well being.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 8:57 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Kevin Miller
Subject: [OT] Personal project

Hi folks,

This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly
LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link to
it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.

Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based on
my experiences:
http://annihilatedepression.com 

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself
 



_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 24 10:47:15 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:47:15 +0000
Subject: CEF Browser woes! no console.
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKSpmzpH=QOeXkFVRexEDYWMMj-NK-ke9Znb5h==Kk=iA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKSpmzpH=QOeXkFVRexEDYWMMj-NK-ke9Znb5h==Kk=iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87950971-C242-4C80-B05F-10AA22DAC6D4@iotecdigital.com>

I can't get there in a normal web browser.

Bob S


> On Oct 24, 2019, at 07:02 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi peeps, how can I find out why http://sound.garden does not work using
> the CEF widget on (tested on windows)??
> 
> Amazing site btw.
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Thu Oct 24 10:47:08 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi))
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 15:47:08 +0100
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
References: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <CABRqQSR1fg1j+7Nu-D4JNy_wvrEt5DyvP+GC=CWE2DnSrWtx8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dearest Kevin,

Massive respect to you for choosing, against the advice of your associates,
to make this public. I just watched the intro video and will continue to
follow the channel with deep interest.

As you are very likely aware, I have battled, often unsuccessfully, with
'clinical' depression and more recently been diagnosed with BPD (Borderline
Personality Disorder) and Autism. I recently found out that BPD is the most
discriminated against condition on the planet - which is nice! Health
Insurance costs up to 10 times more than any other condition. The stigma
behind these conditions is what can perpetuate them if not checked or
fought.

The NHS just wrote me off their books a year on since my last big incident.
They have to do that though, I understand it's not their fault. But, in the
last year, I have learnt a lot. I have learned the Meaning of Life! It is
simply 'To Make Others Around You Happy'. Helping others is helping
yourself. Showing interest in and care for others is really important. And
so-called 'social media' is deadly and abusive. It is far, far better to
get to know people up close and personal than via a corrupt intermediatory.

I am extremely grateful to all those on this group who supported me and put
up with my behaviour. It will never be forgotten. Also to those closest to
me for all they have done, especially my wife of 24 years, Judith.

I wish you all the success you deserve for both overcoming your conditions
and in maintaining your business. A good example to follow!

All the very best

Sean Cole
*Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
www.pidigital.co.uk
+44(1634)402193
+44(7702)116447
'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
box!'
'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
but it is yourself!'

eMail Ts & Cs <http://pidigital.co.uk/emailTCs.rtf>   Pi Digital
Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609


On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 13:56, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly
> LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link
> to it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.
>
> Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based
> on my experiences:
> http://annihilatedepression.com
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct 24 10:49:13 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:49:13 -0400
Subject: CEF Browser woes! no console.
In-Reply-To: <87950971-C242-4C80-B05F-10AA22DAC6D4@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKSpmzpH=QOeXkFVRexEDYWMMj-NK-ke9Znb5h==Kk=iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <87950971-C242-4C80-B05F-10AA22DAC6D4@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLL7tKnFCe6d4X8LJXb49+xOSJv7mOOv3aT69jH8xb_3WQ@mail.gmail.com>

crap..... sorry ... its http://radio.garden

On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 10:48 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I can't get there in a normal web browser.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 24, 2019, at 07:02 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi peeps, how can I find out why http://sound.garden does not work using
> > the CEF widget on (tested on windows)??
> >
> > Amazing site btw.
> >
> > --
> > Tom Glod
> > Founder & Developer
> > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > Office:226-706-9339
> > Mobile:226-706-9793
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 24 10:57:54 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:57:54 +0000
Subject: CEF Browser woes! no console.
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLL7tKnFCe6d4X8LJXb49+xOSJv7mOOv3aT69jH8xb_3WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKSpmzpH=QOeXkFVRexEDYWMMj-NK-ke9Znb5h==Kk=iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <87950971-C242-4C80-B05F-10AA22DAC6D4@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLL7tKnFCe6d4X8LJXb49+xOSJv7mOOv3aT69jH8xb_3WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A7325EB-351B-4F43-A44C-9033687A24F7@iotecdigital.com>

That IS pretty awesome. I can't find KFI though. I do see there is a way to recommend a radio station. 

Bob S

> On Oct 24, 2019, at 07:49 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> crap..... sorry ... its http://radio.garden
> 
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 10:48 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I can't get there in a normal web browser.
>> 
>> Bob S
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 24, 2019, at 07:02 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi peeps, how can I find out why http://sound.garden does not work using
>>> the CEF widget on (tested on windows)??
>>> 
>>> Amazing site btw.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Tom Glod
>>> Founder & Developer
>>> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
>>> Office:226-706-9339
>>> Mobile:226-706-9793
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dvglasgow at gmail.com  Thu Oct 24 12:39:08 2019
From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:39:08 +0100
Subject: CEF Browser woes! no console.
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLL7tKnFCe6d4X8LJXb49+xOSJv7mOOv3aT69jH8xb_3WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKSpmzpH=QOeXkFVRexEDYWMMj-NK-ke9Znb5h==Kk=iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <87950971-C242-4C80-B05F-10AA22DAC6D4@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLL7tKnFCe6d4X8LJXb49+xOSJv7mOOv3aT69jH8xb_3WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F2913660-44FA-459D-99CD-5B7EA7F6DA07@gmail.com>



> On 24 Oct 2019, at 3:49 pm, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> crap..... sorry ... its http://radio.garden <http://radio.garden/>

No No No No No! I have WORK to do!

From jeff at siphonophore.com  Thu Oct 24 13:01:45 2019
From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:01:45 -0400
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1571932801.184489.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
References: <mailman.1.1571932801.184489.use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Message-ID: <F61976C9-2093-4F8A-A86E-FE1890F53A5C@siphonophore.com>

Kevin,

Kudos, many kudos to you. I?ve dealt with many friends and family members with depression over the years and it is nice to see a lot of what I?ve tried with them in your videos.

Jeff

> On Oct 24, 2019, at 12:01 PM, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote:
> 
> This




From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct 24 13:11:24 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:11:24 -0400
Subject: CEF Browser woes! no console.
In-Reply-To: <F2913660-44FA-459D-99CD-5B7EA7F6DA07@gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKSpmzpH=QOeXkFVRexEDYWMMj-NK-ke9Znb5h==Kk=iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <87950971-C242-4C80-B05F-10AA22DAC6D4@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLL7tKnFCe6d4X8LJXb49+xOSJv7mOOv3aT69jH8xb_3WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <F2913660-44FA-459D-99CD-5B7EA7F6DA07@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+x2Q8SUu3LYv2Zh8aX0Bi-v5hioFrNUzt1DBiL+dpVaA@mail.gmail.com>

LOL...... i hear ya.... its mind-boglling-ly good.

On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 12:40 PM David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On 24 Oct 2019, at 3:49 pm, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > crap..... sorry ... its http://radio.garden <http://radio.garden/>
>
> No No No No No! I have WORK to do!
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From curry at pair.com  Thu Oct 24 13:23:44 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:23:44 -0400
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
References: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <c24f86aa-e206-8d8d-f9e0-f5b0a791f4a4@pair.com>


Good topic.

I see that society has a lot of trouble from people worshiping at the 
altar of emotion.

Emotion is very useful, but it's similar to a sensor - ideally 
(functioning correctly) it raises awareness and provides additional 
input about important things in your environment and in yourself. Those 
things affect your survival - danger, disease, industry, help, needs un/met.

As long as people use emotion appropriately (using the tool for what it 
does well) they should generally benefit.

But when emotion is elevated to a goal in itself, or applied to every 
task as a supertool to solve everything, there is chaos. People can be 
perfectly happy doing something great - or equally happy doing something 
very destructive to themselves or others. Emotion is not a reliable 
final judge of good and bad paths or solutions. It's only a useful 
indicator that something COULD be going well or badly. It's a good tool 
to bring the condition to our attention, but we have better tools for 
solving many problems.

Likewise, people with an overwhelming primary goal of feeling 
happy/appreciated/fun/excitement etc (or the flip side, avoiding various 
negative or bland emotions) can cause all sorts of problems around them. 
This is where you see those weird situations with a lot of time wasted 
because they are pursuing a totally different angle. It can affect an 
entire company or government office. I have seen real-life examples 
where the community actually suffers as a result.

For example (but this a true story, just names and industry removed) a 
manager who feels inferior may develop persuasive verbal and nonverbal 
skills specifically to influence people and advance personally in 
career. But having already secured - through persuasion and networking, 
or sometimes through corruption - a position that is above his or her 
actual management abilities and knowledge/skills of the profession, the 
same manager is worried someone will learn the dark secret and something 
bad will happen.

Actually the job position remains fairly secure, at least at first, and 
logically all this person would need to do is simply focus on the job - 
do things properly, brush up on skills, improve, utilize the best 
employees, become more honest and professional - but such people can't 
see that because emotion is still in charge.

Instead they focus more than ever on building the persuasion and 
networking, forming a clique to manage perceptions and basically control 
thoughts and decisions - which transforms the workplace from 
results-oriented to friends-oriented. The manager is preoccupied with 
this and with the web of intrigue, leaving no chance for actual learning 
and improvement. Office conflicts are frequent, solutions are bizarre, 
coverups and shenanigans are commonplace, good workers with real 
knowledge are feared and punished or suppressed. Customer service and 
provided services take a dive, employee turnover increases, and the 
business or government office suffers all kinds of headaches.

Many similar happenings. Anytime someone is more in pursuit of either an 
emotion or a personal agenda rather than the task at hand, things go 
badly. In some cities multiple offices and industries are screwed up by 
these types of situations, plus corruption - ending in (depending on the 
department or business in question) everything from postal mail blowing 
down the street in the wind, to rabid animals running rampant, to 
clogged traffic, and of course long customer lines and disorder at the 
grocery store.

Less dramatic but still far reaching - decisions and industries driven 
by psychological or emotional needs (such as overcoming feelings of 
inferiority by pursuing grandeur) are often not the soundest decisions 
and directions. It's a big show to bolster the star. That affects the 
end consumer and so on - their lives are often enriched, ironically, but 
usually there are unnecessary headaches and unpleasant side effects that 
come with it. It could be even better if driven more by sound reasoning 
and less distracted by emotional factors.

I believe that achieving happiness is most efficiently and permanently 
achieved not by pursuing happiness itself, and certainly not by putting 
happiness or fear of various emotions in the driver's seat, but rather 
by either doing something well, or else doing something good.

But by doing good or doing it well - I don't mean virtue signaling or 
acting a part, again in pursuit of emotion or approval or appearances 
rather than the true characteristics of the thing itself - that's 
another HUGE route that leads to crazy and disastrous results. What 
looks great playing a role on TV is not the best approach in real life, 
so acting is not the same as doing. Again a very real-life example with 
names and titles removed, often with literally life and death 
consequences depending on the industry. Which kind of doctor do you want 
- the guy who plays a doctor on TV, or the guy who plays a doctor in the 
hospital (in other words a real doctor who is driven primarily by 
appearances and popular trends and social status), or the real doctor 
who really focuses on doctoring? :D

And when people cater to emotion, honesty often goes out the window. 
They constantly have to rationalize, distract, and persuade just to 
avoid facing reality or allowing others to see reality. That's a big 
problem everywhere- and especially in coding; logic is based on true vs 
false, and when people are fuzzy on that in daily life, it doesn't help 
their scripting skills. Rationalizing looks like logic, but the 
cause/effect relationship is reversed.

Finally, coming to terms with who and what you are, and the reality of 
your situation and our world. I live everyday with physical limitations 
that many would find extremely difficult to cope with - wheelchair 90% 
of waking time, going outside my home (or overdoing any physical 
activity) oiften makes me exhausted and sick, I've had to give up or 
adjust everything from hobbies to personal interaction to showers. I've 
lost a great deal.

But I'm happy every day, no emotional troubles (although plenty of 
physical pain and discomfort) because I use emotion as a useful sensor 
and tool in the areas where it excels, but I do not put it on a pedestal 
or let it run my life in areas where it is not the best available tool. 
Logic works best for me, generally speaking! Emotion is good too, but 
it's most useful when kept in its proper place. Just like an oil gauge 
is important for your car, but it should not be the reason and purpose 
for driving, nor should it steer. Ironically the pursuit of happiness, 
at least when taken to extremes or put at the center of life and 
decision-making, is probably the LEAST efficient route to achieving 
happiness. :)

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/



From iowahengst at mac.com  Thu Oct 24 14:32:20 2019
From: iowahengst at mac.com (Randy Hengst)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:32:20 -0500
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
References: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <30891B64-1F21-4D72-8BC3-49C56D9FD321@mac.com>

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for sharing this journey.

As I watched "How To Work On Yourself When You're Feeling Terrible? you mentioned ?that these poor states do not last forever.? 

That comment really rang home for me. While I?ve not experienced the level of depression you?ve described? being ?down in the dumps? is a regular occurrence (does that idiom translate well?). One way I?ve addressed the dark feelings is to ?experiment? with writing poetry? usually single focus/verse poems? here are several related to living with and recovering from the darkness:

It seems to me depression
     escapes from my despair:
And seeks to overwhelm me
so I no longer care.

It seems to me disguises
     are fearful of themselves;
And serve to cloak the darkness
beneath which no one dwells.

It seems to me that kindness,
     a gift to one and all,
Excises pain of others
and helps to break my fall.

It seems to me compassion,
     the precursor of hope,
Sets high our sights on caring
and gives us strength to cope.

be well,
randy

Randy Hengst
www.classroomFocusedSoftware.com

> On Oct 24, 2019, at 7:56 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link to it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.
> 
> Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based on my experiences:
> http://annihilatedepression.com 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Kevin
> 
> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 24 16:35:07 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 23:35:07 +0300
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
References: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <9527f8bb-a6ea-2dc8-9330-9da45e382c76@gmail.com>

Bravo.

I'm going to be pushing that at several people I know who have been 
chewing their way through hills of pills
for years.

Thanks.

Best, Richmond.

On 24.10.19 15:56, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link to it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.
>
> Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based on my experiences:
> http://annihilatedepression.com
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Develop Yourself
>   
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Thu Oct 24 17:37:25 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 22:37:25 +0100
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VAhumjn8x5jC83zix8jDc5Rr-7vfWDa=HMGwyktOhB1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VAhumjn8x5jC83zix8jDc5Rr-7vfWDa=HMGwyktOhB1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99B931B0-2EB3-404C-BF2B-D8DA4389F597@pidigital.co.uk>

Hi

The fact you can acquire via nefarious means nearly all software out there demonstrates how easily crackable software is. Adobe, Avid, Autodesk, Boris, Apple and Microsoft (for goodness sake) have all struggled and failed with it. Make it difficult for the everyday user to bypass, look at better price structures for those with morals and find ways to catch or make life tedious for the crackers. 

A hacker breaks through walls and are mainly concerned with systems and networks. Crackers modify or bypass features or d?fenses in software. There?s a distinction. 

A crackers motivation is based on the value they put on it, the value the customers put on it and the value the developer puts on it. The higher the value the product, the more effort you need to put in to protecting it. 

Kee?s wife?s solution is a really good one but has high risk of eating itself through coding error which could affect the customer and any work they do within it. The bigger the software gets, the higher the risk.

Passwords are rubbish and easily bypassed. Network (home) calling make it easy for crackers to find the vulnerable points. Using a resource file is too obvious. Internal encryption is good but You need to still hide the passcodes somewhere clever and make them complicated enough. But even then, a machine code trace will pick up on the build and request of the passcodes and then it?s implementation.

As I say to all of my clients past and present, ?Anything is possible given the time and resources?. True for both sides of the binary. 

If it?s ?fun? you are after, put in as many of these things as possible and give him a real challenge. I don?t doubt your father will manage it but you can keep him on the merry-go-round a little bit longer than he expected. ;)

All the very best

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

From sean at pidigital.co.uk  Thu Oct 24 17:45:43 2019
From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 22:45:43 +0100
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F4A8244E-418C-4E26-B0A8-2608C9BCE733@pidigital.co.uk>

Questions. How do customers access/buy your software? How does it know it is on an authorised machine or with an authorised user?

I have a couple of methods that I remember I thought were very clever (although ultimately pointless) you might like to add in to the mix but it depends on the security deployment method you?ve chosen. 

Sean Cole
Pi Digital Prod Ltd

From kevin at livecode.com  Thu Oct 24 18:56:59 2019
From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 23:56:59 +0100
Subject: [OT] Personal project
In-Reply-To: <CABRqQSR1fg1j+7Nu-D4JNy_wvrEt5DyvP+GC=CWE2DnSrWtx8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25AC46B0-328F-4520-BC7C-34502BEBBBB8@livecode.com>
 <CABRqQSR1fg1j+7Nu-D4JNy_wvrEt5DyvP+GC=CWE2DnSrWtx8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54C359B6-1F51-49E3-9749-31B0B5B29978@livecode.com>

Sean, thanks so much for this heartfelt response. BPD and Autism are particularly tough nuts to crack and I really feel for you. I've got plenty to say relevant to both believe it or not. I'll get there in time. And I agree that making others around you happy is a very important part of the meaning of life.

Thanks also to those others of you who wrote such positive responses today. I was a little nervous launching this and felt it was something that I needed to do nonetheless. It's clear this is something that has touched many of you or those around you. The friendly responses to this effort are so encouraging.

I don't want to lead this list deeply off topic by posting in a great deal of detail here. However if you want to engage on the channel itself with comments, feedback and questions either now or on future videos, I'll be very happy to respond on there as much as I can.

Thanks again for the feedback and for being the community that you are.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

?On 24/10/2019, 15:47, "use-livecode on behalf of Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Dearest Kevin,
    
    Massive respect to you for choosing, against the advice of your associates,
    to make this public. I just watched the intro video and will continue to
    follow the channel with deep interest.
    
    As you are very likely aware, I have battled, often unsuccessfully, with
    'clinical' depression and more recently been diagnosed with BPD (Borderline
    Personality Disorder) and Autism. I recently found out that BPD is the most
    discriminated against condition on the planet - which is nice! Health
    Insurance costs up to 10 times more than any other condition. The stigma
    behind these conditions is what can perpetuate them if not checked or
    fought.
    
    The NHS just wrote me off their books a year on since my last big incident.
    They have to do that though, I understand it's not their fault. But, in the
    last year, I have learnt a lot. I have learned the Meaning of Life! It is
    simply 'To Make Others Around You Happy'. Helping others is helping
    yourself. Showing interest in and care for others is really important. And
    so-called 'social media' is deadly and abusive. It is far, far better to
    get to know people up close and personal than via a corrupt intermediatory.
    
    I am extremely grateful to all those on this group who supported me and put
    up with my behaviour. It will never be forgotten. Also to those closest to
    me for all they have done, especially my wife of 24 years, Judith.
    
    I wish you all the success you deserve for both overcoming your conditions
    and in maintaining your business. A good example to follow!
    
    All the very best
    
    Sean Cole
    *Pi Digital Productions Ltd*
    www.pidigital.co.uk
    +44(1634)402193
    +44(7702)116447
    'Don't try to think outside the box. Just remember the truth: There is no
    box!'
    'For then you realise it is not the box you are trying to look outside of,
    but it is yourself!'
    
    eMail Ts & Cs <http://pidigital.co.uk/emailTCs.rtf>   Pi Digital
    Productions Ltd is a UK registered limited company, no. 5255609
    
    
    On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 at 13:56, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
    
    > Hi folks,
    >
    > This is initial launch of a new personal project of mine, not strictly
    > LiveCode related. I hope you'll indulge this one time me if I post a link
    > to it here. Perhaps some of you might be interested in it.
    >
    > Annihilate Depression is a practical guide to overcoming depression based
    > on my experiences:
    > http://annihilatedepression.com
    >
    > Kind regards,
    >
    > Kevin
    >
    > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
    > LiveCode: Develop Yourself
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
    > subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    >
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct 24 23:42:09 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 23:42:09 -0400
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <F4A8244E-418C-4E26-B0A8-2608C9BCE733@pidigital.co.uk>
References: <CAPzQJLKONKpGTUxKHwwHnpS2LoTAWFMExHJ4dEXTSNa_ZMNvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F4A8244E-418C-4E26-B0A8-2608C9BCE733@pidigital.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLKFciQb4u9fZ=5kC8TU-vA5h6vCqFdm6O3itadDqFASJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone, thanks for partaking in the thread.

Hey Sean,  Currently I authorize the license key via a web api running on a
WordPress site.

But at the end of the day, its still "if license = trial then this if not
then this." ...and thats is place of attack.. using his debugger
tool.......  My strategy is to create a few routines that would create a
bunch of jumps in the code.......hide some stuff......etc.... just to waste
his time if that's what he wants to spend it on.  But as far as legit
cracks that I am defending against...... its not a priority for me....due
to pricing model.  When I change pricing models in the future with a major
new release I will go and look to see if any cracks exist, and then close
the holes.

Cheers







On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 5:46 PM Pi Digital via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Questions. How do customers access/buy your software? How does it know it
> is on an authorised machine or with an authorised user?
>
> I have a couple of methods that I remember I thought were very clever
> (although ultimately pointless) you might like to add in to the mix but it
> depends on the security deployment method you?ve chosen.
>
> Sean Cole
> Pi Digital Prod Ltd
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Oct 25 01:13:03 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 22:13:03 -0700
Subject: My old man vs LC Standalone
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKFciQb4u9fZ=5kC8TU-vA5h6vCqFdm6O3itadDqFASJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLKFciQb4u9fZ=5kC8TU-vA5h6vCqFdm6O3itadDqFASJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41b69efb-1c2b-f4a8-8b3d-553ae1c64e2b@fourthworld.com>

Tom Glod wrote:

 > When I change pricing models in the future with a major new release
 > I will go and look to see if any cracks exist, and then close
 > the holes.

Be sure to run cracked copies and keygens only in disposable VMs.  Most 
of the the ones I've seen are malware delivery vehicles, which makes my 
job easier since anyone using those will likely face more doom than I 
could ever deliver.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Fri Oct 25 12:44:49 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 17:44:49 +0100
Subject: Bug from 2014 - still causing problems
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VAaMj0G6XYezWHpXJ_F69qMonr1JTGNY13ZS9NWKJpA0Q@mail.gmail.com>

We are working on an App that runs on IOS/Android and Windows so making
sure
the Codebase and elements/objects are as much the same on each platform is
important.

Even more important is that we use the same elements on all platforms
including LC fields that are much easier to use than native text fields.

We are close to launching, and a couple of weeks ago noticed that the
delete/backspace key on Android
has a mind of its own - Not deleting, sometimes adding a space or a
duplicate character , then deleting.

We had to code for a native field on Android but not only does it look
uglier out of the box we can't use the code for our "placeholder" routine.
and other properties and the logic for navigation and validation without a
lot of modification.

Because of the way the App works just straight overlaying code does not
work without a lot of wasted energy and extra testing.
 In the end we have decided to use native fields on both Android and IOS
to save having different code on 3 platforms.
We will focus on the LC field and then have a behaviour that then overlays
the native field above but uses the properties already set on the LC field.
 - but it is a good few days of extra work and testing.

This bug in Android has been there since 2014

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13229
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18876

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?t=28699

The sentiments here are the same as what Klaus posted in the forums this
morning and in Bugzilla ....

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11902

Is there any point adding comments to the current buglzilla or is it the
case that if no one has added a comment for 2 years it can't be a problem?
In fact the bug Klaus mentioned was one I came up against  when I first
started using Livecode , and thought it was my lack of understanding so
never even bothered mentioning it in the forum.
Turns out I was wrong.

Any idea if this has been fixed and we don't know about it or there is a
very easy workaround. Still posting even though we are coding around it but
this has to be fixed
because anybody who buys Livecode for Android development will hit this
particular "feature"

<LIGHT COMES ON>
Jacque, you do a lot of Android programming if memory serves - do you use
native all the time for text input
or are we just "holding it wrong"?


Lagi & Todd


From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Oct 25 13:00:59 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 13:00:59 -0400
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>

Hey you guys, I have searched high and low and I am pretty sure the answer
is no , but I wanted to make sure before I did a feature request and a
workaround.

But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will tell me
the name of the handler?

Just like the params() tells me the parameters of the current handler?

-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 13:04:53 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 17:04:53 +0000
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <307A1964-0F21-4B0E-9EA4-3E83C995B44E@iotecdigital.com>

executionContexts

Bob S


> On Oct 25, 2019, at 10:00 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey you guys, I have searched high and low and I am pretty sure the answer
> is no , but I wanted to make sure before I did a feature request and a
> workaround.
> 
> But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will tell me
> the name of the handler?
> 
> Just like the params() tells me the parameters of the current handler?
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod




From bogdanoff at me.com  Fri Oct 25 13:05:13 2019
From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 13:05:13 -0400
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <202DA03E-EB13-43C9-9B03-15AFF8A10BFB@me.com>

Have you looked at executionContexts?

Peter

> On Oct 25, 2019, at 1:00 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey you guys, I have searched high and low and I am pretty sure the answer
> is no , but I wanted to make sure before I did a feature request and a
> workaround.
> 
> But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will tell me
> the name of the handler?
> 
> Just like the params() tells me the parameters of the current handler?
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From brian at milby7.com  Fri Oct 25 13:05:06 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 13:05:06 -0400
Subject: Bug from 2014 - still causing problems
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VAaMj0G6XYezWHpXJ_F69qMonr1JTGNY13ZS9NWKJpA0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VAaMj0G6XYezWHpXJ_F69qMonr1JTGNY13ZS9NWKJpA0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <caf6e92b-7f4b-40b9-a760-7e396b75321b@Spark>

Probably a big advantage to using native fields on mobile is cut/copy/paste.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 25, 2019, 12:46 PM -0400, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> We are working on an App that runs on IOS/Android and Windows so making
> sure
> the Codebase and elements/objects are as much the same on each platform is
> important.
>
> Even more important is that we use the same elements on all platforms
> including LC fields that are much easier to use than native text fields.
>
> We are close to launching, and a couple of weeks ago noticed that the
> delete/backspace key on Android
> has a mind of its own - Not deleting, sometimes adding a space or a
> duplicate character , then deleting.
>
> We had to code for a native field on Android but not only does it look
> uglier out of the box we can't use the code for our "placeholder" routine.
> and other properties and the logic for navigation and validation without a
> lot of modification.
>
> Because of the way the App works just straight overlaying code does not
> work without a lot of wasted energy and extra testing.
> In the end we have decided to use native fields on both Android and IOS
> to save having different code on 3 platforms.
> We will focus on the LC field and then have a behaviour that then overlays
> the native field above but uses the properties already set on the LC field.
> - but it is a good few days of extra work and testing.
>
> This bug in Android has been there since 2014
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13229
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18876
>
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?t=28699
>
> The sentiments here are the same as what Klaus posted in the forums this
> morning and in Bugzilla ....
>
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11902
>
> Is there any point adding comments to the current buglzilla or is it the
> case that if no one has added a comment for 2 years it can't be a problem?
> In fact the bug Klaus mentioned was one I came up against when I first
> started using Livecode , and thought it was my lack of understanding so
> never even bothered mentioning it in the forum.
> Turns out I was wrong.
>
> Any idea if this has been fixed and we don't know about it or there is a
> very easy workaround. Still posting even though we are coding around it but
> this has to be fixed
> because anybody who buys Livecode for Android development will hit this
> particular "feature"
>
> <LIGHT COMES ON>
> Jacque, you do a lot of Android programming if memory serves - do you use
> native all the time for text input
> or are we just "holding it wrong"?
>
>
> Lagi & Todd
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jjs at krutt.org  Fri Oct 25 13:12:46 2019
From: jjs at krutt.org (Jjs)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:12:46 +0200
Subject: Bug from 2014 - still causing problems
In-Reply-To: <caf6e92b-7f4b-40b9-a760-7e396b75321b@Spark>
References: <CAG1h1VAaMj0G6XYezWHpXJ_F69qMonr1JTGNY13ZS9NWKJpA0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <caf6e92b-7f4b-40b9-a760-7e396b75321b@Spark>
Message-ID: <DB750C64-66B1-482F-AEF9-2CC850EA6923@krutt.org>

Not always. Sometimes you don't want that. But you can't turn it off.

Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> schreef op 25 oktober 2019 19:05:06 CEST:
>Probably a big advantage to using native fields on mobile is
>cut/copy/paste.
>
>Thanks,
>Brian
>On Oct 25, 2019, 12:46 PM -0400, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode
><use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> We are working on an App that runs on IOS/Android and Windows so
>making
>> sure
>> the Codebase and elements/objects are as much the same on each
>platform is
>> important.
>>
>> Even more important is that we use the same elements on all platforms
>> including LC fields that are much easier to use than native text
>fields.
>>
>> We are close to launching, and a couple of weeks ago noticed that the
>> delete/backspace key on Android
>> has a mind of its own - Not deleting, sometimes adding a space or a
>> duplicate character , then deleting.
>>
>> We had to code for a native field on Android but not only does it
>look
>> uglier out of the box we can't use the code for our "placeholder"
>routine.
>> and other properties and the logic for navigation and validation
>without a
>> lot of modification.
>>
>> Because of the way the App works just straight overlaying code does
>not
>> work without a lot of wasted energy and extra testing.
>> In the end we have decided to use native fields on both Android and
>IOS
>> to save having different code on 3 platforms.
>> We will focus on the LC field and then have a behaviour that then
>overlays
>> the native field above but uses the properties already set on the LC
>field.
>> - but it is a good few days of extra work and testing.
>>
>> This bug in Android has been there since 2014
>>
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13229
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18876
>>
>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?t=28699
>>
>> The sentiments here are the same as what Klaus posted in the forums
>this
>> morning and in Bugzilla ....
>>
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11902
>>
>> Is there any point adding comments to the current buglzilla or is it
>the
>> case that if no one has added a comment for 2 years it can't be a
>problem?
>> In fact the bug Klaus mentioned was one I came up against when I
>first
>> started using Livecode , and thought it was my lack of understanding
>so
>> never even bothered mentioning it in the forum.
>> Turns out I was wrong.
>>
>> Any idea if this has been fixed and we don't know about it or there
>is a
>> very easy workaround. Still posting even though we are coding around
>it but
>> this has to be fixed
>> because anybody who buys Livecode for Android development will hit
>this
>> particular "feature"
>>
>> <LIGHT COMES ON>
>> Jacque, you do a lot of Android programming if memory serves - do you
>use
>> native all the time for text input
>> or are we just "holding it wrong"?
>>
>>
>> Lagi & Todd
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>_______________________________________________
>use-livecode mailing list
>use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

-- 
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.

From phil at pdslabs.net  Fri Oct 25 13:28:32 2019
From: phil at pdslabs.net (Phil Davis)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:28:32 -0700
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf56308a-f65f-ccf6-cfc0-e7d9be8bb9a2@pdslabs.net>

Tom, param(0) contains the name of the handler you're in.

on mouseUp
 ?? put param(0)
end mouseUp

Would put into the message box:
 ??? mouseUp


Phil Davis


On 10/25/19 10:00 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
> Hey you guys, I have searched high and low and I am pretty sure the answer
> is no , but I wanted to make sure before I did a feature request and a
> workaround.
>
> But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will tell me
> the name of the handler?
>
> Just like the params() tells me the parameters of the current handler?
>

-- 
Phil Davis
503-307-4363




From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Oct 25 13:28:51 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 13:28:51 -0400
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <202DA03E-EB13-43C9-9B03-15AFF8A10BFB@me.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <202DA03E-EB13-43C9-9B03-15AFF8A10BFB@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+6iVNdAw0mQuj9V2Mj3tr2b-ag_q+ZjAp-aAK9mute0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Awesome...... thank you gentlemen.

Wrote a function.

*function* WhatsMyHanderName

*return* item 2 of line -2 of the executioncontexts

*end* WhatsMyHanderName

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 1:06 PM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Have you looked at executionContexts?
>
> Peter
>
> > On Oct 25, 2019, at 1:00 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hey you guys, I have searched high and low and I am pretty sure the
> answer
> > is no , but I wanted to make sure before I did a feature request and a
> > workaround.
> >
> > But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will tell
> me
> > the name of the handler?
> >
> > Just like the params() tells me the parameters of the current handler?
> >
> > --
> > Tom Glod
> > Founder & Developer
> > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> > Office:226-706-9339
> > Mobile:226-706-9793
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Oct 25 13:32:22 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 13:32:22 -0400
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <bf56308a-f65f-ccf6-cfc0-e7d9be8bb9a2@pdslabs.net>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf56308a-f65f-ccf6-cfc0-e7d9be8bb9a2@pdslabs.net>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLJWX7r_K-_pDWu8OSmRWS0XTOaQ_86VR2dQ5c-s9FXVfA@mail.gmail.com>

Phil.....NICE! ...everything seems like a no brainer.... in hindsight.

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 1:29 PM Phil Davis via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Tom, param(0) contains the name of the handler you're in.
>
> on mouseUp
>     put param(0)
> end mouseUp
>
> Would put into the message box:
>      mouseUp
>
>
> Phil Davis
>
>
> On 10/25/19 10:00 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:
> > Hey you guys, I have searched high and low and I am pretty sure the
> answer
> > is no , but I wanted to make sure before I did a feature request and a
> > workaround.
> >
> > But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will tell
> me
> > the name of the handler?
> >
> > Just like the params() tells me the parameters of the current handler?
> >
>
> --
> Phil Davis
> 503-307-4363
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From dochawk at gmail.com  Fri Oct 25 13:36:11 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:36:11 -0700
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLJWX7r_K-_pDWu8OSmRWS0XTOaQ_86VR2dQ5c-s9FXVfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf56308a-f65f-ccf6-cfc0-e7d9be8bb9a2@pdslabs.net>
 <CAPzQJLJWX7r_K-_pDWu8OSmRWS0XTOaQ_86VR2dQ5c-s9FXVfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CFCA37D-2F5A-4664-BE7C-7C1C0A5986D5@gmail.com>


On Oct 25, 2019, at 10:32 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Phil.....NICE! ...everything seems like a no brainer.... in hindsight.

That actually came up in litigation over the patent for the shaving cream can.

The challenger claimed that it was too obvious, and not patentable.

The judge ruled to the effect of, ?It was only obvious *after* you saw it.  That you spent $7M in your own unsuccessful attempt to make such a thing shows that it is not obvious!?




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Oct 25 14:00:07 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 11:00:07 -0700
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>

Tom Glod wrote:

 > But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will
 > tell me the name of the handler?

I'm curious: what are you doing that needs this?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Fri Oct 25 14:14:58 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 11:14:58 -0700
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>

On 10/25/19 11:00 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Tom Glod wrote:
> 
>  > But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will
>  > tell me the name of the handler?
> 
> I'm curious: what are you doing that needs this?
> 

Not Tom, but...

I do this all the time when I need to print a debugging message to the 
messagebox. Sometimes handlers abort before getting to important 
statements and by placing these statements at various points I can tell 
whether or not a handler got triggered.

put param(0) & cr after msg

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct 25 14:34:25 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 13:34:25 -0500
Subject: Bug from 2014 - still causing problems
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VAaMj0G6XYezWHpXJ_F69qMonr1JTGNY13ZS9NWKJpA0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VAaMj0G6XYezWHpXJ_F69qMonr1JTGNY13ZS9NWKJpA0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a869377b-7153-f023-b057-269b2faae96d@hyperactivesw.com>

On 10/25/19 11:44 AM, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote:
> Jacque, you do a lot of Android programming if memory serves - do you use
> native all the time for text input
> or are we just "holding it wrong"?

I use native fields almost all the time. If you write a generic handler 
that calls mobileControlCreate and sets some basic properties, it's a 
one-liner.

I have seen the LC field problems on Android but they were much worse in 
earlier versions. They seem a little better now, but to be safe I use 
native fields anyway.

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 14:36:18 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 18:36:18 +0000
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
 <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>

executionContexts is way more useful. 

Bob S


> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:14 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10/25/19 11:00 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Tom Glod wrote:
>> > But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will
>> > tell me the name of the handler?
>> I'm curious: what are you doing that needs this?
> 
> Not Tom, but...
> 
> I do this all the time when I need to print a debugging message to the messagebox. Sometimes handlers abort before getting to important statements and by placing these statements at various points I can tell whether or not a handler got triggered.
> 
> put param(0) & cr after msg
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Oct 25 14:39:13 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:39:13 -0400
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
 <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
 <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>

Its for error handling ...I want my error handler to know which handler the
error was in.

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 2:37 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> executionContexts is way more useful.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:14 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 10/25/19 11:00 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> >> Tom Glod wrote:
> >> > But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will
> >> > tell me the name of the handler?
> >> I'm curious: what are you doing that needs this?
> >
> > Not Tom, but...
> >
> > I do this all the time when I need to print a debugging message to the
> messagebox. Sometimes handlers abort before getting to important statements
> and by placing these statements at various points I can tell whether or not
> a handler got triggered.
> >
> > put param(0) & cr after msg
> >
> > --
> > Mark Wieder
> > ahsoftware at gmail.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 14:46:02 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 18:46:02 +0000
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
 <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
 <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A381E5D-7A63-4F54-B78C-2CD9A889BD9A@iotecdigital.com>

Item 3


> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:39 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Its for error handling ...I want my error handler to know which handler the
> error was in.




From kaveh at rivervalleytechnologies.com  Fri Oct 25 14:45:52 2019
From: kaveh at rivervalleytechnologies.com (Kaveh Bazargan)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:45:52 +0100
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
 <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
 <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2R9pgL9khC=8fbK3bUhU86SiaE9Ynd0d1CbkS7ve2y3XrUVQ@mail.gmail.com>

So Tom, do you need

return item 2 of line -2 of the executioncontexts

to be in every possible handler?

On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 19:40, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Its for error handling ...I want my error handler to know which handler the
> error was in.
>
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 2:37 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > executionContexts is way more useful.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:14 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 10/25/19 11:00 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> > >> Tom Glod wrote:
> > >> > But is there a function that I can call inside a handler that will
> > >> > tell me the name of the handler?
> > >> I'm curious: what are you doing that needs this?
> > >
> > > Not Tom, but...
> > >
> > > I do this all the time when I need to print a debugging message to the
> > messagebox. Sometimes handlers abort before getting to important
> statements
> > and by placing these statements at various points I can tell whether or
> not
> > a handler got triggered.
> > >
> > > put param(0) & cr after msg
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mark Wieder
> > > ahsoftware at gmail.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Kaveh Bazargan PhD
Director
River Valley Technologies <http://rivervalleytechnologies.com/> ? Twitter
<https://twitter.com/kaveh1000> ? LinkedIn
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/bazargankaveh/>


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 14:46:23 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 18:46:23 +0000
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <1A381E5D-7A63-4F54-B78C-2CD9A889BD9A@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
 <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
 <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A381E5D-7A63-4F54-B78C-2CD9A889BD9A@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <730AD10B-66A0-4E1F-943F-9D46B6A73DA0@iotecdigital.com>

Correction Item 2

> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:46 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com> wrote:
> 
> Item 3
> 
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:39 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Its for error handling ...I want my error handler to know which handler the
>> error was in.
> 




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 14:47:00 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 18:47:00 +0000
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <730AD10B-66A0-4E1F-943F-9D46B6A73DA0@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
 <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
 <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A381E5D-7A63-4F54-B78C-2CD9A889BD9A@iotecdigital.com>
 <730AD10B-66A0-4E1F-943F-9D46B6A73DA0@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <01715ED8-BA1E-4B94-958C-F6B64764445D@iotecdigital.com>

Item 2 of line -1 of the executionContexts

> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:46 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com> wrote:
> 
> Correction Item 2
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:46 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Item 3
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:39 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Its for error handling ...I want my error handler to know which handler the
>>> error was in.
>> 
> 




From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Oct 25 14:57:00 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:57:00 -0400
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <01715ED8-BA1E-4B94-958C-F6B64764445D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
 <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
 <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A381E5D-7A63-4F54-B78C-2CD9A889BD9A@iotecdigital.com>
 <730AD10B-66A0-4E1F-943F-9D46B6A73DA0@iotecdigital.com>
 <01715ED8-BA1E-4B94-958C-F6B64764445D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLj5ODS6KS9m9TBwgqDAMkC1km5fmQA2KyyO7wpo+-7Eg@mail.gmail.com>

its mostly for try routines.... so i'm using it like it

try
something ....
catch TheError
LogError TheError
end try

in LogError handler is where i read the correct line and item in the
executioncontexts.






On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 2:47 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Item 2 of line -1 of the executionContexts
>
> > On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:46 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Correction Item 2
> >
> >> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:46 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Item 3
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:39 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Its for error handling ...I want my error handler to know which
> handler the
> >>> error was in.
> >>
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct 25 15:20:47 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:20:47 -0500
Subject: Mobile scroller misaligned
In-Reply-To: <d2caf0d8-0a45-baf7-49d5-a6c18a602060@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <d2caf0d8-0a45-baf7-49d5-a6c18a602060@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <ec5330e5-6073-22d9-6623-af95fefcdbdf@hyperactivesw.com>

I am still struggling with native scroller alignment when the scroll 
must be set to something other than zero. Since I've asked here twice 
with little response, maybe I just need to know more about how scrollers 
work under the hood. Panos? Anyone?

* If I set the vScroll or hScroll of a scroller, are any messages sent? 
Does this affect the underlying LC group in any way?

* Right now, I'm setting the scroll of a LC group and then setting up a 
native scroller to use the same scroll. This fails. Should I be 
reversing the process, and set the scroller's scroll first followed by 
the LC group scroll? That's kind of how it works when scrollerDidScroll 
is called. I wasn't able to get this to work but maybe I missed something.

For testing, I copied a card from the real project with the same 
scroller scripts. I could not set the scroll in the handler that created 
the scroller, but I could set it later after the creation handler 
finished. But in the real project, identical scripts fail. I can't trace 
why.

I've been tring to fix this for a couple of months now, so any info 
would be appreciated.

On 9/27/19 3:04 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> I must be doing something wrong, I still can't get a mobile scroller to 
> align at anything other than zero. It fails on scrollers placed over 
> either images or scrolling fields.
> 
> I have a list field with a lot of lines, grouped, with the group shorter 
> than the field.
> 
> On mobile (Android in my case) a handler sets the hilitedLine of the 
> field and scrolls the group to display it. I create a native scroller on 
> the group and set the vScroll to the same scroll as the group. I can't 
> get the scroller to align correctly.
> 
> The list shows on demand, so the scroller has to be created when the 
> group becomes visible, and has to match the group's current scroll.
> 
>  ? mobileControlSet pName, "vScroll", tVScroll -- fails unless it's zero
> 
> Has anyone done this successfully? I'm pretty sure there's something 
> wrong with my script.
> 


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com




From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net  Fri Oct 25 16:42:10 2019
From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 16:42:10 -0400
Subject: Mobile scroller misaligned
In-Reply-To: <ec5330e5-6073-22d9-6623-af95fefcdbdf@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <d2caf0d8-0a45-baf7-49d5-a6c18a602060@hyperactivesw.com>
 <ec5330e5-6073-22d9-6623-af95fefcdbdf@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <003501d58b74$b0575bc0$11061340$@net>

J,

Sorry I meant send this to you last time you asked and got sidetracked, then spaced out and forgot. After creating the scroller do a send in time to a handler to set the non-zero scroll. I use .5 seconds but less might work.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdimola at evergreeninfo.net

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2019 3:21 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: J. Landman Gay
Subject: Re: Mobile scroller misaligned

I am still struggling with native scroller alignment when the scroll must be set to something other than zero. Since I've asked here twice with little response, maybe I just need to know more about how scrollers work under the hood. Panos? Anyone?

* If I set the vScroll or hScroll of a scroller, are any messages sent? 
Does this affect the underlying LC group in any way?

* Right now, I'm setting the scroll of a LC group and then setting up a native scroller to use the same scroll. This fails. Should I be reversing the process, and set the scroller's scroll first followed by the LC group scroll? That's kind of how it works when scrollerDidScroll is called. I wasn't able to get this to work but maybe I missed something.

For testing, I copied a card from the real project with the same scroller scripts. I could not set the scroll in the handler that created the scroller, but I could set it later after the creation handler finished. But in the real project, identical scripts fail. I can't trace why.

I've been tring to fix this for a couple of months now, so any info would be appreciated.

On 9/27/19 3:04 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> I must be doing something wrong, I still can't get a mobile scroller 
> to align at anything other than zero. It fails on scrollers placed 
> over either images or scrolling fields.
> 
> I have a list field with a lot of lines, grouped, with the group 
> shorter than the field.
> 
> On mobile (Android in my case) a handler sets the hilitedLine of the 
> field and scrolls the group to display it. I create a native scroller 
> on the group and set the vScroll to the same scroll as the group. I 
> can't get the scroller to align correctly.
> 
> The list shows on demand, so the scroller has to be created when the 
> group becomes visible, and has to match the group's current scroll.
> 
>    mobileControlSet pName, "vScroll", tVScroll -- fails unless it's 
> zero
> 
> Has anyone done this successfully? I'm pretty sure there's something 
> wrong with my script.
> 


-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From hh at hyperhh.de  Fri Oct 25 16:56:01 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (Hermann Hoch)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 22:56:01 +0200
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
Message-ID: <9C4D91B2-9EEA-466B-AE1A-B695962DC839@hyperhh.de>

Just to inform you.

Once again a ("maintenance"?)-change was done without any
notification.

Livecodeshare/SampleStacks has a new size limit:

If you have a sample stack there that has size > 2.1 Mbyte
(probably 2048 Kbyte) then it downloads from
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com with zero Bytes or displays
"error" in the status bar of "Sample Stacks" respectively.

I already reported it to support this morning. Hopefully
a competent staff member can solve this.



From alain.vezina at logilangue.com  Fri Oct 25 17:18:32 2019
From: alain.vezina at logilangue.com (Alain Vezina)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 17:18:32 -0400
Subject: Can I find out what handler I am in?
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLj5ODS6KS9m9TBwgqDAMkC1km5fmQA2KyyO7wpo+-7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPzQJLLaiRQQoKP8nqaSrJttxhRvEzPkmD1pZ_RvzeK+y4VJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dfb28d7-3f38-b662-cd00-84b0b85ef1e2@fourthworld.com>
 <89f1a025-3269-5b74-f381-de47ed45ebe4@sonic.net>
 <E3426B3D-BF5D-44EE-BBB0-8B29BE36EFBA@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLKQy6w3HhX5CxL+Ki26vHVdV-4f9UatDbCu2vy4vLAXDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A381E5D-7A63-4F54-B78C-2CD9A889BD9A@iotecdigital.com>
 <730AD10B-66A0-4E1F-943F-9D46B6A73DA0@iotecdigital.com>
 <01715ED8-BA1E-4B94-958C-F6B64764445D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CAPzQJLLj5ODS6KS9m9TBwgqDAMkC1km5fmQA2KyyO7wpo+-7Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F68EBB4-E6AB-4157-936A-C2DC0F4E9289@logilangue.com>

I use to indicate where I am by answering something like "I'm entering in handler XYZ", "I exit handler XYZ"

Sometime I use answering to know what is in a special Variable, an so on.

I's simple, but it woks, especially when I use several handlers.

Alain Vezina
Logilangue

> Le 25 oct. 2019 ? 14:57, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> a ?crit :
> 
> its mostly for try routines.... so i'm using it like it
> 
> try
> something ....
> catch TheError
> LogError TheError
> end try
> 
> in LogError handler is where i read the correct line and item in the
> executioncontexts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 2:47 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Item 2 of line -1 of the executionContexts
>> 
>>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:46 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Correction Item 2
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:46 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Item 3
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 11:39 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Its for error handling ...I want my error handler to know which
>> handler the
>>>>> error was in.
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 17:28:25 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 21:28:25 +0000
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
Message-ID: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>

Still getting red dot breakpoint crashes. This time when switching to the calling handler. Not a big deal for me just saying. 

Bob S




From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Fri Oct 25 17:51:03 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Iphonelagi)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 22:51:03 +0100
Subject: Bug from 2014 - still causing problems
In-Reply-To: <a869377b-7153-f023-b057-269b2faae96d@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <a869377b-7153-f023-b057-269b2faae96d@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <3C90B2C6-ADFA-4B80-AA5F-4883B6C9456E@gmail.com>

hi Jacque

Yes, In the end Todd bit the bullet and did it with the native field on both iOS and Android ... now for the testing and inevitable quirks.

this  lesson gave initial food for thought

http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4069/l/29112-how-do-i-use-native-text-controls-on-mobile

But  a newbie learning LC will look at it as broken, and the idea is to make the learning curve easier. The other thing Is others will get  bitten in the bum when you leat expect it. We tested both on IOS and android but never used delete on adroid for over a year ... I suppose cos you don?t expect that to fail.

Still there is no excuse for not fixing something for 5 years  that doesn?t even need a recipe.

The bug which Klaus commented on will frustrate even more people when they try to get their buttons looking how they want and finding the settings don?t work as they should.

<here endeth the sermon>

Lagi


Sent from my iPhone

> On 25 Oct 2019, at 19:35, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> ?On 10/25/19 11:44 AM, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote:
>> Jacque, you do a lot of Android programming if memory serves - do you use
>> native all the time for text input
>> or are we just "holding it wrong"?
> 
> I use native fields almost all the time. If you write a generic handler that calls mobileControlCreate and sets some basic properties, it's a one-liner.
> 
> I have seen the LC field problems on Android but they were much worse in earlier versions. They seem a little better now, but to be safe I use native fields anyway.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From jerry at jhjensen.com  Fri Oct 25 17:59:37 2019
From: jerry at jhjensen.com (Jerry Jensen)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:59:37 -0700
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>

Which version of LC?

> On Oct 25, 2019, at 2:28 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Still getting red dot breakpoint crashes. This time when switching to the calling handler. Not a big deal for me just saying. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 18:04:09 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 22:04:09 +0000
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
Message-ID: <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>

9.5.0 Community. Sorry when it comes to info more is better. Usually. ;-) Also MacOS Mojave fully updated. 

Bob S


> On Oct 25, 2019, at 14:59 , Jerry Jensen via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Which version of LC?




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 18:06:31 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 22:06:31 +0000
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <DF73D88B-EB23-4125-B6EB-D87BCA048350@iotecdigital.com>

The reason I think it might be red dot crashing is I have noticed that the red dot is not always in sync with the line it is supposed to be pointing at, typically when scrolling. It seems to correct itself, but then shortly after I saw this while debugging a behavior and switching between execution contexts, that is when I CDT. 

Bob S


> On Oct 25, 2019, at 15:04 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com> wrote:
> 
> 9.5.0 Community. Sorry when it comes to info more is better. Usually. ;-) Also MacOS Mojave fully updated. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 14:59 , Jerry Jensen via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Which version of LC?
> 




From jerry at jhjensen.com  Fri Oct 25 18:07:41 2019
From: jerry at jhjensen.com (Jerry Jensen)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 15:07:41 -0700
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>

Thanks Bob. I thought the red dot crashing was fixed in 9.0.5 and not yet put in 9.5 until the next ?imminent? release. No?
.Jerry

> On Oct 25, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 9.5.0 Community. Sorry when it comes to info more is better. Usually. ;-) Also MacOS Mojave fully updated. 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 14:59 , Jerry Jensen via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Which version of LC?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Fri Oct 25 18:56:14 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 15:56:14 -0700
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
Message-ID: <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>

On 10/25/19 3:07 PM, Jerry Jensen via use-livecode wrote:
> Thanks Bob. I thought the red dot crashing was fixed in 9.0.5 and not yet put in 9.5 until the next ?imminent? release. No?

That is correct.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Oct 25 19:08:22 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:08:22 -0400
Subject: Who is the blogger at livecode-blogger.blogspot.com?
Message-ID: <68f36815536ee53bf214294b943f92d3@fourthworld.com>

Searching for "LiveCode blog" recently turned up this nice site:
https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com/

Try as I might, I couldn't turn up any identifying information about the 
blogger.  Anyone know who it is?

-- 
   Richard Gaskin
   Fourth World Systems
   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
   ____________________________________________________________________
   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                
http://www.FourthWorld.com



From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Oct 25 19:10:20 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:10:20 -0400
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>

any chance you are reading clipboard data?

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 6:57 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 10/25/19 3:07 PM, Jerry Jensen via use-livecode wrote:
> > Thanks Bob. I thought the red dot crashing was fixed in 9.0.5 and not
> yet put in 9.5 until the next ?imminent? release. No?
>
> That is correct.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftware at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From tom at makeshyft.com  Fri Oct 25 19:21:04 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:21:04 -0400
Subject: Who is the blogger at livecode-blogger.blogspot.com?
In-Reply-To: <68f36815536ee53bf214294b943f92d3@fourthworld.com>
References: <68f36815536ee53bf214294b943f92d3@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJLLdYXGX4danm8foGM_HzX+kf6=989QKiy-b3+5yGhbwmA@mail.gmail.com>

I have no idea, but thats a great blog. Whoever it is, they are no slouch.


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Fri Oct 25 19:37:17 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 16:37:17 -0700
Subject: Who is the blogger at livecode-blogger.blogspot.com?
In-Reply-To: <68f36815536ee53bf214294b943f92d3@fourthworld.com>
References: <68f36815536ee53bf214294b943f92d3@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <9d63614b-ca6c-d831-3f82-5ea9546d9a88@sonic.net>

On 10/25/19 4:08 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Searching for "LiveCode blog" recently turned up this nice site:
> https://livecode-blogger.blogspot.com/
> 
> Try as I might, I couldn't turn up any identifying information about the 
> blogger.? Anyone know who it is?

Looks like maxv to me. Some Italian text slipped in and there's a 
download link to his website for PhotoRoom. Nicely done.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Oct 25 20:35:23 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 17:35:23 -0700
Subject: Weird macOS error dialog
Message-ID: <e3fc0578-5b2f-2784-72ba-de7161ef92b8@fourthworld.com>

After installing LC 9.5 on macOS "Catalina", when I run it I get a 
system alert I've never seen before:

  "LiveCode Indy 9.5.0" wants access to
  control "System Events". Allowing control
  will provide access to documents and data
  in "System Events", and to perform actions
  within that app."

What fresh hell is this?  Is this something all of our users will be seeing?

I'm guessing (because there's not much in that text for actually 
knowing) that this occurs with some Apple event and/or AppleScript use - 
is that correct?

Anyone know how to never see that weird thing again? (Other than just 
clicking "OK", which users will do but is never a good idea unless they 
fully understand the implications, which I don't believe is possible in 
this case given the vague wording).

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct 25 20:57:25 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:57:25 -0500
Subject: Weird macOS error dialog
In-Reply-To: <e3fc0578-5b2f-2784-72ba-de7161ef92b8@fourthworld.com>
References: <e3fc0578-5b2f-2784-72ba-de7161ef92b8@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <16e05916508.27e3.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

It isn't new but apparently it changed a little in Mojave.

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335848/mojave-disable-or-control-the-some-app-name-wants-access-to-control-another
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 25, 2019 7:37:35 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> After installing LC 9.5 on macOS "Catalina", when I run it I get a
> system alert I've never seen before:
>
>  "LiveCode Indy 9.5.0" wants access to
>  control "System Events". Allowing control
>  will provide access to documents and data
>  in "System Events", and to perform actions
>  within that app."
>
> What fresh hell is this?  Is this something all of our users will be seeing?
>
> I'm guessing (because there's not much in that text for actually
> knowing) that this occurs with some Apple event and/or AppleScript use -
> is that correct?
>
> Anyone know how to never see that weird thing again? (Other than just
> clicking "OK", which users will do but is never a good idea unless they
> fully understand the implications, which I don't believe is possible in
> this case given the vague wording).
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  ____________________________________________________________________
>  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Oct 25 21:07:48 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 18:07:48 -0700
Subject: Weird macOS error dialog
In-Reply-To: <16e05916508.27e3.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <16e05916508.27e3.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <4fa2c7b6-2d86-2772-9f0f-af23e2589f45@fourthworld.com>

Thanks, Jacque.

Looking into this more deeply I believe it's not triggered by LC itself, 
but by a companion app my client has written.

I'll suggest they sign that to make that abstract annoyance go away.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems


Jacqueline Landman Gay wrote:

> Weird macOS error dialog
> J. Landman Gay jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> Fri Oct 25 20:57:25 EDT 2019
> 
>     Previous message (by thread): Weird macOS error dialog
>     Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
> 
> It isn't new but apparently it changed a little in Mojave.
> 
> https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335848/mojave-disable-or-control-the-some-app-name-wants-access-to-control-another
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On October 25, 2019 7:37:35 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> After installing LC 9.5 on macOS "Catalina", when I run it I get a
>> system alert I've never seen before:
>>
>>  "LiveCode Indy 9.5.0" wants access to
>>  control "System Events". Allowing control
>>  will provide access to documents and data
>>  in "System Events", and to perform actions
>>  within that app."
>>
>> What fresh hell is this?  Is this something all of our users will be seeing?
>>
>> I'm guessing (because there's not much in that text for actually
>> knowing) that this occurs with some Apple event and/or AppleScript use -
>> is that correct?
>>
>> Anyone know how to never see that weird thing again? (Other than just
>> clicking "OK", which users will do but is never a good idea unless they
>> fully understand the implications, which I don't believe is possible in
>> this case given the vague wording).
>>
>> --
>>  Richard Gaskin
>>  Fourth World Systems




From hh at hyperhh.de  Fri Oct 25 21:26:48 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 03:26:48 +0200
Subject: Weird macOS error dialog
Message-ID: <B095D6DA-5C08-4421-B2CE-7A62F260448C@hyperhh.de>

> What fresh hell is this?  Is this something all of our
> users will be seeing?

Yes. But this is only the camp fire before the hell.

The new security hystery will surprise you every few
minutes when you really work on that OS.




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Fri Oct 25 21:36:02 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 18:36:02 -0700
Subject: Weird macOS error dialog
In-Reply-To: <B095D6DA-5C08-4421-B2CE-7A62F260448C@hyperhh.de>
References: <B095D6DA-5C08-4421-B2CE-7A62F260448C@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <8440e026-46a6-77cf-215d-bf6e9f0f33ec@fourthworld.com>

hh wrote:

 > The new security hystery will surprise you every few
 > minutes when you really work on that OS.

Let me guess: If I give 30% of my income to Apple then all those nasty 
warnings in my apps just go away.

#shakedown

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Fri Oct 25 21:48:15 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 20:48:15 -0500
Subject: Weird macOS error dialog
In-Reply-To: <8440e026-46a6-77cf-215d-bf6e9f0f33ec@fourthworld.com>
References: <B095D6DA-5C08-4421-B2CE-7A62F260448C@hyperhh.de>
 <8440e026-46a6-77cf-215d-bf6e9f0f33ec@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <16e05bfef18.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

True, but only because you can't give Apple its cut unless the app is signed.
--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 25, 2019 8:38:13 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> hh wrote:
>
> > The new security hystery will surprise you every few
> > minutes when you really work on that OS.
>
> Let me guess: If I give 30% of my income to Apple then all those nasty
> warnings in my apps just go away.
>
> #shakedown
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  ____________________________________________________________________
>  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Fri Oct 25 21:53:38 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 01:53:38 +0000
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>

Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet. 

Bob S


> On Oct 25, 2019, at 16:10 , Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> any chance you are reading clipboard data?
> 
> On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 6:57 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/25/19 3:07 PM, Jerry Jensen via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Thanks Bob. I thought the red dot crashing was fixed in 9.0.5 and not
>> yet put in 9.5 until the next ?imminent? release. No?
>> 
>> That is correct.
>> 
>> --
>>  Mark Wieder
>>  ahsoftware at gmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Glod
> Founder & Developer
> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
> Office:226-706-9339
> Mobile:226-706-9793
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From simplsol at aol.com  Fri Oct 25 22:43:41 2019
From: simplsol at aol.com (Paul Looney)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:43:41 -0700
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>

So, to be fixed in 9.0.6?


> On Oct 25, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet. 
> 
> Bob S



From brian at milby7.com  Fri Oct 25 22:46:35 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 22:46:35 -0400
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
 <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>
Message-ID: <da977c63-ec87-4068-88b9-197143ff5a96@Spark>

9.5.1 should have the fix (or whatever it is named).

9.0.5 already has the fix.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 25, 2019, 10:44 PM -0400, Paul Looney via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> So, to be fixed in 9.0.6?
>
>
> > On Oct 25, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet.
> >
> > Bob S
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From paul at researchware.com  Sat Oct 26 08:06:58 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 08:06:58 -0400
Subject: Weird macOS error dialog
In-Reply-To: <e3fc0578-5b2f-2784-72ba-de7161ef92b8@fourthworld.com>
References: <e3fc0578-5b2f-2784-72ba-de7161ef92b8@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <38ffc7a2-206e-14f5-896a-87185cd6ac57@researchware.com>

On 10/25/2019 8:35 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> After installing LC 9.5 on macOS "Catalina", when I run it I get a 
> system alert I've never seen before:
>
> ?"LiveCode Indy 9.5.0" wants access to
> ?control "System Events". Allowing control
> ?will provide access to documents and data
> ?in "System Events", and to perform actions
> ?within that app."
>
> What fresh hell is this?? Is this something all of our users will be 
> seeing?
>
> I'm guessing (because there's not much in that text for actually 
> knowing) that this occurs with some Apple event and/or AppleScript use 
> - is that correct?
>
> Anyone know how to never see that weird thing again? (Other than just 
> clicking "OK", which users will do but is never a good idea unless 
> they fully understand the implications, which I don't believe is 
> possible in this case given the vague wording).
>

I have not seen that one, but I have seen one-time permission dialogs 
for (a) Internet access and (b) writing to the user's "Documents" folder 
for a properly CODE SIGNED 9.0.5 standalone under Catalina.

I assumed it was like iOS permissions and probably LC will need to add 
to the OSX standalone setting tab a list of permissions you have to 
check off for your app, but I have not taken the time to research what 
needs to be done to prevent such warnings.



From hh at hyperhh.de  Sat Oct 26 09:03:47 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:03:47 +0200
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
Message-ID: <A27A811B-7BA7-4D48-A092-CC4F27FE7A51@hyperhh.de>

Livecodeshare/SampleStacks works again:

1. With ALL editions (Business/Indy/Community).
2. The recently appearing size limit has been removed.

Thank you very much whoever did this.

Especially SampleStacks from the LC toolbar is very
fast and robust. Just try!



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Sat Oct 26 10:45:07 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 17:45:07 +0300
Subject: Close oddness
Message-ID: <b96c3fbf-f5d4-ffca-ceed-1070e6b80d68@gmail.com>

When I try to close a stack via

Close and Remove from Memory

[ MacOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5.0 ]

the stack does not close, but I get the

"Standalone application saved successfully"

announcement window.

Richmond.



From hh at hyperhh.de  Sat Oct 26 11:25:24 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 17:25:24 +0200
Subject: Steganograph_v110 
Message-ID: <CD982C0A-A72F-41E9-A2C5-ACBC25710FCF@hyperhh.de>

The stack does (kind of) Steganography with an image, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography.

The stack runs (offline) using LC 8.1.10/9.0.5/9.5 on
MacOS > 10.12 and, using LC 8.1.10/9.0.5, on win 7/10
and linux (ubuntu1604).

The goal was here to have a method that uses in a
standard way only the alphadata of an image to hide 
embedded text. By that
? we can use ANY base64 encoded data for embedding.
we use as examples plainText, htmlText and an image.
Other examples are styledText, rtfText or a svgPath.
? we can clean the image from embedded code by simply
resetting the alphadata of that image.

That is, who knows that Steganograph embedded an object...

...can remove that object with a short script.
...can not read the embedded object as "clear" data, except
he knows what YOU do with the object before embedding.

We use compressing and base64Encoding of the embed-data.
The decoding and encoding is done by a JS library via
a browser widget.

Download Steganograph from "SampleStacks" or
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/952/





From irog at mac.com  Sat Oct 26 11:26:23 2019
From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 08:26:23 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <A27A811B-7BA7-4D48-A092-CC4F27FE7A51@hyperhh.de>
References: <A27A811B-7BA7-4D48-A092-CC4F27FE7A51@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <F2689DC6-6D3F-4D5B-8C20-0C0A538FF873@mac.com>

Yes, indeed . . . Nice!!

Roger

> On Oct 26, 2019, at 6:03 AM, hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Livecodeshare/SampleStacks works again:
> 
> 1. With ALL editions (Business/Indy/Community).
> 2. The recently appearing size limit has been removed.
> 
> Thank you very much whoever did this.
> 
> Especially SampleStacks from the LC toolbar is very
> fast and robust. Just try!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From hh at hyperhh.de  Sat Oct 26 15:30:56 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 21:30:56 +0200
Subject: PDF-Tools
Message-ID: <77767034-D3A4-4160-9446-AF4AB77E71EF@hyperhh.de>

PDF-Tools_v110
(Merge/Mix/Split, add header/footer/pageNum/svgIcon)

Using LC 9.0.5 it runs on Mac/Win/linux(ubuntu1604).

More exactly:

? Using LC 8.1.10/9.0.5/9.5.0 it runs on MacOS >=10.12.6.
? Using LC 8.1.10/9.0.5 it runs on Win7.
? Using LC 9.0.5 it runs on Win10 and linux(ubuntu1604).

[This is sadly due to deficiencies of the browser widget.]

Download from SampleStacks or
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/951/




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sat Oct 26 18:52:08 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:52:08 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <A27A811B-7BA7-4D48-A092-CC4F27FE7A51@hyperhh.de>
References: <A27A811B-7BA7-4D48-A092-CC4F27FE7A51@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <25831acc-2aaa-ffc5-1b17-7df057fb55cd@fourthworld.com>

hh wrote:

 > Livecodeshare/SampleStacks works again:
 >
 > 1. With ALL editions (Business/Indy/Community).
 > 2. The recently appearing size limit has been removed.
 >
 > Thank you very much whoever did this.
 >
 > Especially SampleStacks from the LC toolbar is very
 > fast and robust. Just try!

Was it not working?

Your post made me nostalgic, so I checked it out. Seems to work as well 
as before, all the way down to the mystifying order of the categories. 
Alphabetical fall out of fashion?  I'm sure there's a logic there, but 
I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

Even downloaded a stack, some snapshot tool with icons whose purpose 
weren't self-evident.  Clicked one to see what would happen.  System 
froze, deep.  Had to force-reboot.  Don't see that on Linux often. 
Kinda hard to do. Quite an achievement.

Takes me down memory lane with this growing collection of 
related/duplicate bugs with snapshot on Linux:

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15900
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17257
https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20104

I'll try to remember to never try others' scripts using "import 
snapshot", like I'm already in the habit of never thinking about having 
a browser widget, or the ability to play a movie or audio file, or have 
windows layer in an expected fashion...

::sigh::

Missing Fraser and Peter, and their valiant efforts at nudging the 
product back toward something closer to feature parity across platforms...

Yeah, nostalgia...

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Sat Oct 26 19:11:30 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Iphonelagi)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 00:11:30 +0100
Subject: Android native  field focus problem
Message-ID: <84A0D961-B6E6-4C64-8266-371970633A47@gmail.com>


Hi all

Routines rewritten using native field.
Works great on IOS but Android
Doesn?t focus on first field to bring up keyboard on initial pageload. The user has to press the field.

How do we set focus to the field?

Lagi

Sent from my iPhone


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sat Oct 26 19:22:32 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:22:32 -0700
Subject: Android native field focus problem
In-Reply-To: <84A0D961-B6E6-4C64-8266-371970633A47@gmail.com>
References: <84A0D961-B6E6-4C64-8266-371970633A47@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <587c8fa9-aa7e-0ba0-3de6-4e84ec33dab3@fourthworld.com>

Lagi wrote:
 > Routines rewritten using native field.
 > Works great on IOS but Android
 > Doesn?t focus on first field to bring up keyboard on initial 
pageload. The user has to press the field.
 >
 > How do we set focus to the field?

Switch to iPhone. ;)

I've seen that with apps written by some very big names, including 
Google themselves.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From hh at hyperhh.de  Sat Oct 26 20:11:23 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 02:11:23 +0200
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
Message-ID: <953481C7-D691-4BED-8CE1-C41F7B8F0345@hyperhh.de>

> Richard G. wrote:
> I'll try to remember to never try others' scripts using "import 
> snapshot", like I'm already in the habit of never thinking about having 
> a browser widget, or the ability to play a movie or audio file, or have 
> windows layer in an expected fashion...

The problem is that linux is for LiveCode a tiny niche.
And much more:
The linux users of the community are kind of "LiveCode masochists".

Some are so advanced with that, that they meanwhile feel *very* strong
pain only (your list above).

For example you didn't even notice that SampleStacks didn't work for
weeks when using Business or Indy and, despite notification in the list,
both livecodeshare and SampleStacks didn't load stacks of size > 2 MByte
for two days.

Also your "GoLiveNet" (I really liked it) is unusable since more than a
year from Mac using Indy or Business (I wrote you and gave up).

[It errors with message 'Error downloading URL "liveNet.livecode.gz".
Check network connection and proxy setup.'
One has to quit, open it in a community edition, quit community edition,
restart the Indy/Bussiness edition and relaunch GoLiveNet (that now can
use the cache). So probably a tsNet caused bug.
It is often too tedious to work around, I still feel the pain, although
I like LC on linux (on xubuntu especially).]

p.s. Mark Wieder wrote an 'ugly workaround' (his own words) for snapshot
on linux, I use it in "QRReader". It works well, whether ugly or not,
also where the browser widget works (LC 9.0.5 on ubuntu1604).



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sat Oct 26 20:26:14 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 17:26:14 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <953481C7-D691-4BED-8CE1-C41F7B8F0345@hyperhh.de>
References: <953481C7-D691-4BED-8CE1-C41F7B8F0345@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <5b0e70cd-1fc0-5b9f-4b2f-2d40f04fda68@sonic.net>

On 10/26/19 5:11 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:

> p.s. Mark Wieder wrote an 'ugly workaround' (his own words) for snapshot
> on linux, I use it in "QRReader". It works well, whether ugly or not,
> also where the browser widget works (LC 9.0.5 on ubuntu1604).

I do have a comment attached to the bug report that mentions that it's 
probably the second-ugliest bit of code I've ever written. And while it 
works well as a workaround, it doesn't change the fact that the 
barebones "import snapshot" command not only doesn't work on linux, but 
hangs the whole system.

And things like that are deadly for increasing market share. Yes, LC on 
linux is a tiny niche. And it's not likely to get any bigger when basic 
things don't work as advertised. Can you imagine an LC newbie on linux 
installing the product, trying the import snapshot command, rebooting 
their computer, and then not immediately uninstalling? I've done that 
after first impressions of other software and not looked back.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sat Oct 26 20:44:21 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 17:44:21 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <25831acc-2aaa-ffc5-1b17-7df057fb55cd@fourthworld.com>
References: <A27A811B-7BA7-4D48-A092-CC4F27FE7A51@hyperhh.de>
 <25831acc-2aaa-ffc5-1b17-7df057fb55cd@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <7b5ce7c4-be5f-1426-9393-22b9dc165ffc@sonic.net>

On 10/26/19 3:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> Takes me down memory lane with this growing collection of 
> related/duplicate bugs with snapshot on Linux:
> 
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15900
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17257
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20104

I think you mean 15541 instead of 15900
or maybe 15103

Possibly these should all be declared duplicates of a single bug report 
so that there's only one for the team to ignore. <g>

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sat Oct 26 21:30:16 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 21:30:16 -0400
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
Message-ID: <804561768aa0597a361c8a9aeefec6a0@fourthworld.com>

Mark Wieder wrote:

> On 10/26/19 3:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> 
>> Takes me down memory lane with this growing collection of
>> related/duplicate bugs with snapshot on Linux:
>> 
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15900
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17257
>> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20104
> 
> I think you mean 15541 instead of 15900
> or maybe 15103
> 
> Possibly these should all be declared duplicates of a single bug report

I thought about that, started to try to figure whether the later ones 
should be moved to the original, or all moved to the most recent, and I 
was burning wetware thinking about it it dawned on me:

> so that there's only one for the team to ignore. <g>

Yep.  Why spend the time if nothing can be done about it?

Since Fraser and Brett left the Linux regressions are piling up.  Until 
either LC Ltd finds the strategic value in platform parity, or I get 
wealthy enough to hire Fraser to take care of these, I just make a 
mental note to ignore chunks of the feature set and move on.

Fortunately browsers work great on all platforms, so the future looks 
bright enough to keep me going....

--
   Richard Gaskin
   Fourth World Systems
   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
   ____________________________________________________________________
   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                
http://www.FourthWorld.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Sat Oct 26 21:34:44 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:34:44 -0500
Subject: Android native  field focus problem
In-Reply-To: <84A0D961-B6E6-4C64-8266-371970633A47@gmail.com>
References: <84A0D961-B6E6-4C64-8266-371970633A47@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16e0ad9eb20.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

It works here, in fact I had to go out of my way to make it not happen 
because we didn't want the keyboard popping up. But you do have to have a 
LC field in place.

If the field is the first editable field then LC selects it as usual on 
opencard, which triggers the Android keyboard to appear. You can make the 
LC field transparent and empty if you aren't going to use it. You can set 
the selectedRange in the native field if you want to. Actually, setting the 
range might be enough by itself.

I generally keep LC fields for use in the IDE and create native fields over 
them in mobile, emptying or hiding them if necessary. That way you already 
have a rect to use, and testing in the IDE is more convenient.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 26, 2019 6:13:23 PM Iphonelagi via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Routines rewritten using native field.
> Works great on IOS but Android
> Doesn?t focus on first field to bring up keyboard on initial pageload. The 
> user has to press the field.
>
> How do we set focus to the field?
>
> Lagi
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sat Oct 26 22:59:51 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 19:59:51 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
Message-ID: <50b8b108-3f55-8c6e-d8a3-96e75a0ae95c@fourthworld.com>

hh wrote:

 >> Richard G. wrote:
 >> I'll try to remember to never try others' scripts using "import
 >> snapshot", like I'm already in the habit of never thinking about
 >> having a browser widget, or the ability to play a movie or audio
 >> file, or have windows layer in an expected fashion...
 >
 > The problem is that linux is for LiveCode a tiny niche.

Yep.  I'm familiar with the stats. In fact, I've even had another list 
user complain that I reference them too often, but like you I recognize 
that they are important for understanding ROI, for LC Ltd and for ourselves.

True enough, the desktop belongs to Windows. With its 86% market share, 
the desktop has always been a Windows story and it always will be.  Both 
macOS and Linux are niche players there.  Apple has the advantage of the 
boutique audience willing to spend more than their Win counterparts, so 
it's worth supporting their OSes.  Linux users work the other way, 
disproportionately into Free and Open software, so biz models dependent 
on per-seat licensing are challenged there.

One unique upside to the Linux audience favors dev tools in general, but 
not LiveCode specifically: they understand and contribute to open 
source.  Python, Ruby, Perl, PHP - name an open source language (which 
is most today) and you'll find a thriving contributor base.

In contrast, LiveCode's unique history works against contribution.  We 
have disproportionately fewer members versed in C++ than many other 
languages, so community engine contributions come from about half a 
dozen people (big THANK YOU to those who have!).  And although the one 
thing all LC devs have in common is a passion for LC Script, and the IDE 
half of the product is written in LC Script, we still see relatively few 
pull requests against the IDE.  No blame there, it kinda makes sense, 
given that most of this audience came up age in the '90s when 
development tools were still proprietary, so we don't have the same 
contributor culture most other modern languages do.

Another factor is the percentage of license holders among experienced 
users.  People who pay for a license feel entitled to a product that 
works as described, and can be less inclined to effectively pay a second 
time with labor.  Understandable, and quite different from audiences for 
languages which don't have a dual-license model.  MySQL is arguably an 
exception, but its market share is so uniquely vast that it defies 
realistic comparisons with anything else.

I believe the contribution problem will be addressed over time as the 
audience grows. The challenge is that the audience grows most slowly on 
the platform most accustomed to contribution, because it's the platform 
most seriously in need of contribution.  With such a weak out-of-the-box 
experience, it's an unusually imaginative soul who'll try LC on Linux 
and get excited about the potential.  A common phrase I hear is "It 
looks like they don't care about Linux."


 > And much more:
 > The linux users of the community are kind of "LiveCode masochists".

Many Linux users feel the same about other OSes.  Aside from the times 
I'm making fun of myself with a #fanboi tag, in more serious discussions 
I avoid fannish advocacy.

Windows, Mac, and Linux have all proven themselves for their respective 
audiences.  The Pengiuin has nothing to prove, any more than Mac does 
now that it's rebounded from its 2.2% market share.  Indeed, there are 
more Ubuntu users alone right now than the sum of all Mac users when 
Steve Jobs returned to Apple.

In our modern computing world we have a wealth of strong, viable options 
for every taste.  With OSes as with languages and text editors and 
hardware and the rest, enjoy what works for you.


 > Some are so advanced with that, that they meanwhile feel *very* strong
 > pain only (your list above).

Ah, but the point there was apparently lost in my poor writing.  I 
generally have no such limitations on the platform I currently spend the 
most time with.  Browsers, video editors, text editors, email, graphics 
tools -- pretty much everything I've enjoyed doing from my years when I 
spent more time on Mac, and the years I spent more time on Windows, all 
work excellently here on Ubuntu too.  The exception to that LiveCode.


 > For example you didn't even notice that SampleStacks didn't work for
 > weeks when using Business or Indy and, despite notification in the
 > list, both livecodeshare and SampleStacks didn't loamanyd stacks of
 > size > 2 MByte for two days.

Yeah, been working. Though I've read nearly every message on this list 
since it started, I miss a few.


 > Also your "GoLiveNet" (I really liked it) is unusable since more than
 > a year from Mac using Indy or Business (I wrote you and gave up).
 >
 > [It errors with message 'Error downloading URL "liveNet.livecode.gz".
 > Check network connection and proxy setup.'
 > One has to quit, open it in a community edition, quit community
 > edition, restart the Indy/Bussiness edition and relaunch GoLiveNet
 > (that now can use the cache).

Check your spam bin.  I recall thanking you for your report, and also 
noting in my reply that I was unable to reproduce it.  I just tried it 
again a moment ago - same good result.

I can check on macOS and Windows when I'm back in the office.  May be 
good to know which you're using.

At the moment I'm running Ubuntu 18.04, and I do nearly all of my work 
with an Indy edition, currently 9.5 on this laptop.


 > So probably a tsNet caused bug.

Could be. I really wish curl support were directly in the engine, or at 
least integrated with less obviously-not-native-to-LC syntax.  I can 
appreciate the expediency of bundling an existing third-party tool, and 
in the absence of any other support for the industry-standard curl lib I 
think we're all appreciative of Charles' excellent work.  But tsNet is 
an external, and it feels like one.


 > It is often too tedious to work around, I still feel the pain,
 > although I like LC on linux (on xubuntu especially).]

I've met some of the contributors to Xubuntu at the SoCal Linux Expo 
(coming up in March for anyone interested in going).  Xubuntu us a great 
distro, very well maintained.


 > p.s. Mark Wieder wrote an 'ugly workaround' (his own words) for
 > snapshot on linux, I use it in "QRReader". It works well, whether ugly
 > or not, also where the browser widget works (LC 9.0.5 on ubuntu1604).

Why my kvetching is personal, my interest is larger:

Many years ago I dreamed of one day meeting Mark Shuttleworth, CEO of 
Canonical, the company behind the most popular distro, Ubuntu.  The 
dream was sitting down with him to show him the unmatchable power of 
LiveCode for rapidly deploying UIs for enterprise apps, devops, and the 
other key segments he's focused on.  Maybe he'd bundle it.  Maybe he'd 
have an engineer contribute to it.  Maybe feature it at 
developer.ubuntu.com.  I don't know what could come of such a meeting, 
but it seems like a very natural intersection of positive interests. 
With more than 40 million desktop users, disproportionately strong with 
devs, it seems a good win-win worth aiming for.

Well, I finally met him a few years ago when I attended the Ubuntu 
Developer Summit in Oakland, and had some extensive time to speak with 
him more recently when we invited him to keynote our UbuCon event at the 
SoCal Linux Expo.

At long last, I'm finally in a position to ask for that meeting.

But LiveCode isn't.  Not on Linux.

So I wait, and continue to dream....

-- 
   Richard Gaskin
   Fourth World Systems
   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
   ____________________________________________________________________
   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com             http://www.FourthWorld.com




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sat Oct 26 23:04:55 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:04:55 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <4e0aaeee16e70488f9b066d979377714@fourthworld.com>
References: <4e0aaeee16e70488f9b066d979377714@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <87735672-979c-0dc0-32c1-a05f79d2fa84@fourthworld.com>

A bit ago I wrote:

> hh wrote:
>> Also your "GoLiveNet" (I really liked it) is unusable since more than a
>> year from Mac using Indy or Business (I wrote you and gave up).
>>
>> [It errors with message 'Error downloading URL "liveNet.livecode.gz".
>> Check network connection and proxy setup.'
>> One has to quit, open it in a community edition, quit community edition,
>> restart the Indy/Bussiness edition and relaunch GoLiveNet (that now can
>> use the cache).
> 
> Check your spam bin.? I recall thanking you for your report, and also 
> noting in my reply that I was unable to reproduce it.? I just tried it 
> again a moment ago - same good result.
> 
> I can check on macOS and Windows when I'm back in the office.? May be 
> good to know which you're using.
> 
> At the moment I'm running Ubuntu 18.04, and I do nearly all of my work 
> with an Indy edition, currently 9.5 on this laptop.

FWIW I just ran Development -> Plugins -> GoLiveNet on macOS "Catalina" 
and Windows 10 v1909, and it loaded without issue.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From dunbarx at aol.com  Sat Oct 26 23:13:27 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 03:13:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <da977c63-ec87-4068-88b9-197143ff5a96@Spark>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
 <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>
 <da977c63-ec87-4068-88b9-197143ff5a96@Spark>
Message-ID: <700757923.946703.1572146007789@mail.yahoo.com>

My red dots are fixed in 9.0.4. Not sure about 9.5, if that might be a regression.
Bottom line, I am thrilled that they finally work. It is the reason I migrated from v.8.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Brian Milby <brian at milby7.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 25, 2019 10:47 pm
Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes

9.5.1 should have the fix (or whatever it is named).

9.0.5 already has the fix.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 25, 2019, 10:44 PM -0400, Paul Looney via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> So, to be fixed in 9.0.6?
>
>
> > On Oct 25, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet.
> >
> > Bob S
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sat Oct 26 23:36:13 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:36:13 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <50b8b108-3f55-8c6e-d8a3-96e75a0ae95c@fourthworld.com>
References: <50b8b108-3f55-8c6e-d8a3-96e75a0ae95c@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <153e3f08-8c62-52d9-8982-3b917f9ef244@sonic.net>

On 10/26/19 7:59 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> At the moment I'm running Ubuntu 18.04,

You're aware that's not a supported platform, right?

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sun Oct 27 00:52:07 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 21:52:07 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <153e3f08-8c62-52d9-8982-3b917f9ef244@sonic.net>
References: <153e3f08-8c62-52d9-8982-3b917f9ef244@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <32f237ca-14df-31c9-da09-47b942cfb0f0@fourthworld.com>

Mark Wieder wrote:

 > On 10/26/19 7:59 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >> At the moment I'm running Ubuntu 18.04,
 >
 > You're aware that's not a supported platform, right?

Soon enough...

https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22428

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From e.beugelaar at me.com  Sun Oct 27 04:39:01 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 09:39:01 +0100
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <87735672-979c-0dc0-32c1-a05f79d2fa84@fourthworld.com>
References: <4e0aaeee16e70488f9b066d979377714@fourthworld.com>
 <87735672-979c-0dc0-32c1-a05f79d2fa84@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <C05BA783-BBF7-4E0A-8C18-6864BED86712@me.com>

Me too no problems loading GoLiveNet  (LiveCode 9.5 Indy)

?On 27/10/2019, 04:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    A bit ago I wrote:
    
    > hh wrote:
    >> Also your "GoLiveNet" (I really liked it) is unusable since more than a
    >> year from Mac using Indy or Business (I wrote you and gave up).
    >>
    >> [It errors with message 'Error downloading URL "liveNet.livecode.gz".
    >> Check network connection and proxy setup.'
    >> One has to quit, open it in a community edition, quit community edition,
    >> restart the Indy/Bussiness edition and relaunch GoLiveNet (that now can
    >> use the cache).
    > 
    > Check your spam bin.  I recall thanking you for your report, and also 
    > noting in my reply that I was unable to reproduce it.  I just tried it 
    > again a moment ago - same good result.
    > 
    > I can check on macOS and Windows when I'm back in the office.  May be 
    > good to know which you're using.
    > 
    > At the moment I'm running Ubuntu 18.04, and I do nearly all of my work 
    > with an Indy edition, currently 9.5 on this laptop.
    
    FWIW I just ran Development -> Plugins -> GoLiveNet on macOS "Catalina" 
    and Windows 10 v1909, and it loaded without issue.
    
    --
      Richard Gaskin
      Fourth World Systems
      Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
      ____________________________________________________________________
      Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From curry at pair.com  Sun Oct 27 09:48:25 2019
From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 09:48:25 -0400
Subject: Unicode is not "everywhere"...
In-Reply-To: <a86f3e3d289b7a7d58a031dc6f73633f@livecode.com>
References: <a86f3e3d289b7a7d58a031dc6f73633f@livecode.com>
Message-ID: <a619f9b8-ce94-f28c-3dff-b0ec7dcb9750@pair.com>


This post regards the future of "the detailed files". I'm resurrecting 
this thread to reply to a couple of very important statements after 
helping to create a fairly fast, cross-platform tentative workaround 
(still in testing, and I only mention this since the code was already 
posted) for the currently broken or inadequate feature.

Mark:

 > My general feeling here is that 'the detailed files' and
 > 'the detailed folders' should be put out to pasture as they
 > are grossly inefficient and difficult to work with.

That could be seen to imply these logic and assumptions:

A. Our product forced users to use an inefficient method,
B. They always used an inefficient method, and the format sucks,
C. Therefore round-file it.

Here's the problem with that feeling: A is incomplete, and B is 
presumptuous - it's an assumption following from A rather than being a 
separate observation. These contradict observed reality in a good 
portion of actual user activities with the feature in question.

The tool - detailed files - is inefficient for working with a SINGLE 
file. Yes that sucks, and there are lots of lousy code examples using it 
that way out of necessity (although some are pretty slick) but it 
DOESN'T mean people haven't also frequently used it for working with 
multiple files; indeed they have! I've seen it often.

So it's still relevant, and still efficient for what it does best - an 
entire file list when the user desires something specifically 
cross-platform, uniform, and fairly fast. Users are not going to be more 
efficient making a hundred separate details calls from script. And 
cross-platform with the same code is a good thing. If we want shell we 
can use it - this is different.

Not difficult to use, either - although bonus points for pretty-print 
option(s). Just bonus points though, and just options (don't worry RG, 
nobody's sapping engine/ering time*) that's still efficient enough to 
accomplish easily by script, and people don't always use this for 
display - often for data. And not always using that data with the same 
methods or for the same purpose. Sometimes the existing format is VERY 
efficient for certain tasks.

Back to Unicode:

 > For the same reason that urlEncode and urlDecode cannot be
 > changed, the detailed files/folders cannot be changed.

Nope.

Unicode? Absolutely! This is an intentionally cross-platform listing in 
a unique format, so predating certain industry standards isn't going to 
matter much.

What people will usually need, therefore most efficient, is the Unicode 
file names included in details. And - eureka! - that would match what we 
already have with the Unicode file names included in "the files" 
wouldn't it? Quite desirable, since this is a switch adjective/param - 
"the [detailed] files".

If you need a backward-compatible URL-encoded version either by default, 
or by param/setting, that's fine and good; do what you gotta do. But 
most people most of the time are going to need the Unicode, so 
appropriate emphasis should be on what is useful. I predict not many 
people will be using the URLs in newly-written code if the Unicode 
option is there.

*And (again) this shouldn't take a ton of engineering time. If 
necessary, LC Ltc can feel free to (more efficiently) utilize something 
along the lines of our workaround as a very quick engine fix. All the 
elements you need are already there in your hand with existing features. 
No need to re-do from scratch. Just choose the most efficient route 
putting them together in the official function.

BTW, I noticed this while working with files(): ideally it would be good 
to make "the [detailed] files of tFolder" valid syntax, to mirror the 
function/param form. Despite technological gains in some areas, the 
"English-like" syntax has been neglected some in the last decade. The 
Hypertalk/xTalk syntax was underappreciated but incredibly effective 
genius, and moving away from it (even very gradually) could be 
inflicting damage on oneself.

As would, more importantly, chopping off various body parts - er, 
features - without thinking it over twice! Put down the knife a minute, 
mate, you might decide later you need that appendage. LOL. I see, and 
write, a lot of code with different users. My friendly and positive 
advice: Never underestimate the continuing appeal and value of many 
parts of the original xTalk syntax and features, nor the ingenuity of 
users in utilizing the ever-growing toolset, which is used in more ways 
and better ways (both old and new) than you or I might assume! :)

 > new functions 'fileInfo' and 'folderInfo' [...]

Yep!

For single files, we/you need only access single files.

By enumerating the attributes of these functions, you might approximate 
some backward compatibility with the format from detailed files if 
desired. People do have enough existing code based on handling lines of 
the detailed files to make this a thoughtful and worthwhile consideration.

 > [...] could replace them. [detailed files/folders]

Only if you want to substitute one inefficiency (for a certain case) 
with another (for another case). I would prefer efficiency for ALL 
cases, net efficiency, but shucks - that's just me. ;)

Great job on the 9.5 memory leak bug-swats and partial speed 
improvements! There are still leak(s), and still slow areas, but it's 
getting better. If the net bugs finally can be gotten under control one 
of these days, LC 9 will be a mighty force to reckon with! Really loving 
the new features too.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Sun Oct 27 11:51:21 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:51:21 -0700
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <32f237ca-14df-31c9-da09-47b942cfb0f0@fourthworld.com>
References: <153e3f08-8c62-52d9-8982-3b917f9ef244@sonic.net>
 <32f237ca-14df-31c9-da09-47b942cfb0f0@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <11a15348-d2a2-cad1-81a8-fadcc6bfead2@sonic.net>

On 10/26/19 9:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Mark Wieder wrote:
> 
>  > On 10/26/19 7:59 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>  >> At the moment I'm running Ubuntu 18.04,
>  >
>  > You're aware that's not a supported platform, right?
> 
> Soon enough...
> 
> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22428
> 

Yes, but... "support" for a later build isn't just a matter of updating 
the documentation. Ubuntu 18 uses a newer gcc and compiling the source 
requires a few changes to the build files. I have to patch the build 
files every time I build from source locally. It's just a matter of the 
team deciding it's time to move forward.

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7127

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From dunbarx at aol.com  Sun Oct 27 13:25:34 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:25:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <700757923.946703.1572146007789@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
 <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>
 <da977c63-ec87-4068-88b9-197143ff5a96@Spark>
 <700757923.946703.1572146007789@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <798483605.1068021.1572197134963@mail.yahoo.com>

Just an aside.
I never experienced a "crash" of any kind with a red dot. I only found that, after editing a script with a dot in place, it had become disabled as if it was not there at all, and execution proceeded right past it. If I deleted it and put it back, it worked fine again. But that hardly recommends the original dot.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: dunbarx <dunbarx at aol.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2019 11:14 pm
Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes

My red dots are fixed in 9.0.4. Not sure about 9.5, if that might be a regression.
Bottom line, I am thrilled that they finally work. It is the reason I migrated from v.8.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Brian Milby <brian at milby7.com>
Sent: Fri, Oct 25, 2019 10:47 pm
Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes

9.5.1 should have the fix (or whatever it is named).

9.0.5 already has the fix.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 25, 2019, 10:44 PM -0400, Paul Looney via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> So, to be fixed in 9.0.6?
>
>
> > On Oct 25, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet.
> >
> > Bob S
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Sun Oct 27 13:35:12 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:35:12 +0200
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <798483605.1068021.1572197134963@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
 <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>
 <da977c63-ec87-4068-88b9-197143ff5a96@Spark>
 <700757923.946703.1572146007789@mail.yahoo.com>
 <798483605.1068021.1572197134963@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1cf1bffb-1e97-212b-39ef-6541f88b264f@gmail.com>

The "funny" thing is that there is the red and the yellow dot.

The explanations that come with the red dot are either difficult or 
impossible to understand.

The yellow dot happens when one attempts to run a script and it locks 
everything up: but,
again, gives no particularly useful information.

What might be a good thing is if some sort of vaguely comprehensible 
explanation were available
as to how the red and the yellow dots were conceived, as well as the 
error messages.

Richmond.

On 27.10.19 19:25, dunbarx--- via use-livecode wrote:
> Just an aside.
> I never experienced a "crash" of any kind with a red dot. I only found that, after editing a script with a dot in place, it had become disabled as if it was not there at all, and execution proceeded right past it. If I deleted it and put it back, it worked fine again. But that hardly recommends the original dot.
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: dunbarx <dunbarx at aol.com>
> Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2019 11:14 pm
> Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
>
> My red dots are fixed in 9.0.4. Not sure about 9.5, if that might be a regression.
> Bottom line, I am thrilled that they finally work. It is the reason I migrated from v.8.
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Brian Milby <brian at milby7.com>
> Sent: Fri, Oct 25, 2019 10:47 pm
> Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
>
> 9.5.1 should have the fix (or whatever it is named).
>
> 9.0.5 already has the fix.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 25, 2019, 10:44 PM -0400, Paul Looney via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> So, to be fixed in 9.0.6?
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet.
>>>
>>> Bob S
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From dunbarx at aol.com  Sun Oct 27 20:55:46 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 00:55:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <1cf1bffb-1e97-212b-39ef-6541f88b264f@gmail.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
 <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>
 <da977c63-ec87-4068-88b9-197143ff5a96@Spark>
 <700757923.946703.1572146007789@mail.yahoo.com>
 <798483605.1068021.1572197134963@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1cf1bffb-1e97-212b-39ef-6541f88b264f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1572512046.1163628.1572224146187@mail.yahoo.com>

Richmond.
Yellow dot?
Are you talking about a partially faded red dot you see when you start editing in the SE and have not yet compiled?
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Richmond <richmondmathewson at gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2019 1:36 pm
Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes

The "funny" thing is that there is the red and the yellow dot.

The explanations that come with the red dot are either difficult or 
impossible to understand.

The yellow dot happens when one attempts to run a script and it locks 
everything up: but,
again, gives no particularly useful information.

What might be a good thing is if some sort of vaguely comprehensible 
explanation were available
as to how the red and the yellow dots were conceived, as well as the 
error messages.

Richmond.

On 27.10.19 19:25, dunbarx--- via use-livecode wrote:
> Just an aside.
> I never experienced a "crash" of any kind with a red dot. I only found that, after editing a script with a dot in place, it had become disabled as if it was not there at all, and execution proceeded right past it. If I deleted it and put it back, it worked fine again. But that hardly recommends the original dot.
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: dunbarx <dunbarx at aol.com>
> Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2019 11:14 pm
> Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
>
> My red dots are fixed in 9.0.4. Not sure about 9.5, if that might be a regression.
> Bottom line, I am thrilled that they finally work. It is the reason I migrated from v.8.
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Brian Milby <brian at milby7.com>
> Sent: Fri, Oct 25, 2019 10:47 pm
> Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
>
> 9.5.1 should have the fix (or whatever it is named).
>
> 9.0.5 already has the fix.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 25, 2019, 10:44 PM -0400, Paul Looney via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> So, to be fixed in 9.0.6?
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet.
>>>
>>> Bob S
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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From dunbarx at aol.com  Sun Oct 27 20:58:08 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 00:58:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <1cf1bffb-1e97-212b-39ef-6541f88b264f@gmail.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
 <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>
 <da977c63-ec87-4068-88b9-197143ff5a96@Spark>
 <700757923.946703.1572146007789@mail.yahoo.com>
 <798483605.1068021.1572197134963@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1cf1bffb-1e97-212b-39ef-6541f88b264f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <376458832.1141872.1572224288517@mail.yahoo.com>

You don't mean the yellow dot that is in the tab of the currently active SE control?


-----Original Message-----
From: Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Richmond <richmondmathewson at gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2019 1:36 pm
Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes

The "funny" thing is that there is the red and the yellow dot.

The explanations that come with the red dot are either difficult or 
impossible to understand.

The yellow dot happens when one attempts to run a script and it locks 
everything up: but,
again, gives no particularly useful information.

What might be a good thing is if some sort of vaguely comprehensible 
explanation were available
as to how the red and the yellow dots were conceived, as well as the 
error messages.

Richmond.

On 27.10.19 19:25, dunbarx--- via use-livecode wrote:
> Just an aside.
> I never experienced a "crash" of any kind with a red dot. I only found that, after editing a script with a dot in place, it had become disabled as if it was not there at all, and execution proceeded right past it. If I deleted it and put it back, it worked fine again. But that hardly recommends the original dot.
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: dunbarx <dunbarx at aol.com>
> Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2019 11:14 pm
> Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
>
> My red dots are fixed in 9.0.4. Not sure about 9.5, if that might be a regression.
> Bottom line, I am thrilled that they finally work. It is the reason I migrated from v.8.
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Brian Milby <brian at milby7.com>
> Sent: Fri, Oct 25, 2019 10:47 pm
> Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
>
> 9.5.1 should have the fix (or whatever it is named).
>
> 9.0.5 already has the fix.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 25, 2019, 10:44 PM -0400, Paul Looney via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> So, to be fixed in 9.0.6?
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet.
>>>
>>> Bob S
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
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use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From alex at tweedly.net  Sun Oct 27 21:28:24 2019
From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 01:28:24 +0000
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <1cf1bffb-1e97-212b-39ef-6541f88b264f@gmail.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <CA080165-2302-435C-B880-0E3FCCD0D15E@jhjensen.com>
 <6daf2d7a-8ae9-5730-5e3b-57134074745e@sonic.net>
 <CAPzQJLLHR_gOJgYiBBU4EptHSGNaDfAcf0OyMuxof86Hk0pyTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7852C82B-B5DA-4BFC-B3C7-198C75CD369A@iotecdigital.com>
 <BBCAA904-948C-488D-969B-F6A9F2BE6322@aol.com>
 <da977c63-ec87-4068-88b9-197143ff5a96@Spark>
 <700757923.946703.1572146007789@mail.yahoo.com>
 <798483605.1068021.1572197134963@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1cf1bffb-1e97-212b-39ef-6541f88b264f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04a13ffa-c60f-9989-3666-7ec5db0b1ff3@tweedly.net>

"yellow dot" ?

I think you mean the "current line indicator" when you are actively 
debugging a script. If execution stops on a red dot then you get a kind 
of 'orange' dot, caused by the red dot (for the breakpoint) overlaid by 
the yellow circle and small yellow dot and white arrow of the current 
line. If you then single-step, yu will see the red dot remain (i.e. at 
the breakpoint) and the yellow advance to the (usualy next) line.

Alex.

On 27/10/2019 17:35, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
> The "funny" thing is that there is the red and the yellow dot.
>
> The explanations that come with the red dot are either difficult or 
> impossible to understand.
>
> The yellow dot happens when one attempts to run a script and it locks 
> everything up: but,
> again, gives no particularly useful information.
>
> What might be a good thing is if some sort of vaguely comprehensible 
> explanation were available
> as to how the red and the yellow dots were conceived, as well as the 
> error messages.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 27.10.19 19:25, dunbarx--- via use-livecode wrote:
>> Just an aside.
>> I never experienced a "crash" of any kind with a red dot. I only 
>> found that, after editing a script with a dot in place, it had become 
>> disabled as if it was not there at all, and execution proceeded right 
>> past it. If I deleted it and put it back, it worked fine again. But 
>> that hardly recommends the original dot.
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
>> To: use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
>> Cc: dunbarx <dunbarx at aol.com>
>> Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2019 11:14 pm
>> Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
>>
>> My red dots are fixed in 9.0.4. Not sure about 9.5, if that might be 
>> a regression.
>> Bottom line, I am thrilled that they finally work. It is the reason I 
>> migrated from v.8.
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
>> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
>> Cc: Brian Milby <brian at milby7.com>
>> Sent: Fri, Oct 25, 2019 10:47 pm
>> Subject: Re: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
>>
>> 9.5.1 should have the fix (or whatever it is named).
>>
>> 9.0.5 already has the fix.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>> On Oct 25, 2019, 10:44 PM -0400, Paul Looney via use-livecode 
>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>>> So, to be fixed in 9.0.6?
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 25, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode 
>>>> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Nope my bad. Not fixed in 9.5 yet.
>>>>
>>>> Bob S
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Sun Oct 27 22:10:10 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 22:10:10 -0400
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
Message-ID: <43df564e27f241cec1730b9ac0034949@fourthworld.com>

Erik Beugelaar wrote:
> Me too no problems loading GoLiveNet  (LiveCode 9.5 Indy)

Thanks for checking that, Erik.  If you do come across an issue please 
let me know. I have contact info in LiveNet, and of course you can 
always write me at the address below.

LiveNet is fairly simple today, mostly serving as an example of the ease 
and utility of downloaded stack files. But I have some plans for 
expanding it if I can get the time, so keeping the current underpinnings 
working well through LC changes remains a keen interest.

-- 
   Richard Gaskin
   Fourth World Systems
   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
   ____________________________________________________________________
   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                
http://www.FourthWorld.com



From phil at pdslabs.net  Mon Oct 28 03:44:29 2019
From: phil at pdslabs.net (Phil Davis)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 00:44:29 -0700
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
Message-ID: <ee094df0-8366-15a6-49a9-e39c05472375@pdslabs.net>

I want to [programmatically] take a picture of a Scrabble board and then 
take from that image the characters displayed in it, and maintain the 
organization of the text. In other words, I want to convert the text 
displayed in the image to text strings.

Any ideas where I should start?

I would love to be able to do it in my app. However I'm not completely 
against uploading the image to a service that would do it for me; I am 
only mostly against it.

Thanks for any ideas to may have.

-- 
Phil Davis
503-307-4363




From e.beugelaar at me.com  Mon Oct 28 04:28:58 2019
From: e.beugelaar at me.com (Erik Beugelaar)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 09:28:58 +0100
Subject: Livecodeshare/SampleStacks
In-Reply-To: <43df564e27f241cec1730b9ac0034949@fourthworld.com>
References: <43df564e27f241cec1730b9ac0034949@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <3BCFAFB4-251C-4C08-BE2D-C2736449104E@me.com>

Richard, no problem checking. It looks promising.

A little bit of myself and a very late introduction ;-)  
I have been following LiveCode from 2010 resulting in a license of 5.5. Because of my professional work (Visual Basic 6/T-SQL followed up by C#/SQL Server/ASP .NET until now and a bit of Dart/Flutter) I had not enough time to put my hands really on it but reading the docs, the forum and RunRev Magazine (!) was a pleasant hobby in my spare time. In 2014 I was contacted by Packt Publishing if I was interested in reviewing a new book called LiveCode Mobile Development Cook Book written by Dr. Edward Lavieri, https://www.shorturl.at/bMR27  If you scroll down you can read why I was interested doing the review. I like to do programming using visual development tools because it was a blessing after developing business apps with good old Clipper (5.x using OO libraries) so many years in qEdit (!). I knew from Kevin in 2014 that HQ was working hard to implement an open standard as replacement of the old way extensions were built in 5.5. That process took some time so I didn't renew my license. When it became interesting (FFi implementation) I renewed my license from 6.x up till now (Indy). 
Because of a professional switch in my career, I now have more time to dive really deep in the philosophy of LiveCode and become a contributing member starting first to refresh my knowledge about the messaging system, design patterns (Levure!) etc, LiveCode Script ending with LiveCode Builder. My hands are burning!
I have collected an intensive folder with libraries, scripts etc from die hard LiveCode developers I followed all the years so I hope within a period of 6 months to be comfortable writing programs in LiveCode and help fixing the bug list ;-)

All the best,
Erik Beugelaar
https://www.solidit.nl
Amsterdam, The Netherlands




?On 28/10/2019, 03:11, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" <use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

    Erik Beugelaar wrote:
    > Me too no problems loading GoLiveNet  (LiveCode 9.5 Indy)
    
    Thanks for checking that, Erik.  If you do come across an issue please 
    let me know. I have contact info in LiveNet, and of course you can 
    always write me at the address below.
    
    LiveNet is fairly simple today, mostly serving as an example of the ease 
    and utility of downloaded stack files. But I have some plans for 
    expanding it if I can get the time, so keeping the current underpinnings 
    working well through LC changes remains a keen interest.
    
    -- 
       Richard Gaskin
       Fourth World Systems
       Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
       ____________________________________________________________________
       Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                
    http://www.FourthWorld.com
    
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    





From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 05:37:50 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond Mathewson)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 11:37:50 +0200
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
In-Reply-To: <ee094df0-8366-15a6-49a9-e39c05472375@pdslabs.net>
References: <ee094df0-8366-15a6-49a9-e39c05472375@pdslabs.net>
Message-ID: <CAL3fwtiZ49yq+_rRrv_XjGKjPW+ajcqT4TC4-b07Vn0PvR00mQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well, that'd involve some sort of OCR . . . So you've either got to wrap
some code up from elsewhere, or roll your own OCR routine in LiveCode.

Tough call.

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 9:45 AM Phil Davis via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I want to [programmatically] take a picture of a Scrabble board and then
> take from that image the characters displayed in it, and maintain the
> organization of the text. In other words, I want to convert the text
> displayed in the image to text strings.
>
> Any ideas where I should start?
>
> I would love to be able to do it in my app. However I'm not completely
> against uploading the image to a service that would do it for me; I am
> only mostly against it.
>
> Thanks for any ideas to may have.
>
> --
> Phil Davis
> 503-307-4363
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ilola.antti at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 06:16:06 2019
From: ilola.antti at gmail.com (Antti Ilola)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:16:06 +0200
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
In-Reply-To: <CAL3fwtiZ49yq+_rRrv_XjGKjPW+ajcqT4TC4-b07Vn0PvR00mQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee094df0-8366-15a6-49a9-e39c05472375@pdslabs.net>
 <CAL3fwtiZ49yq+_rRrv_XjGKjPW+ajcqT4TC4-b07Vn0PvR00mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEKyzxMGHPteqeKoyuK=y5DVLHE_2dEongg5QZnaPmpUaikgHw@mail.gmail.com>

Is this any help.
https://github.com/tesseract-ocr/tesseract

Antti

ma 28. lokak. 2019 klo 11.38 Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode (
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com) kirjoitti:

> Well, that'd involve some sort of OCR . . . So you've either got to wrap
> some code up from elsewhere, or roll your own OCR routine in LiveCode.
>
> Tough call.
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 9:45 AM Phil Davis via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > I want to [programmatically] take a picture of a Scrabble board and then
> > take from that image the characters displayed in it, and maintain the
> > organization of the text. In other words, I want to convert the text
> > displayed in the image to text strings.
> >
> > Any ideas where I should start?
> >
> > I would love to be able to do it in my app. However I'm not completely
> > against uploading the image to a service that would do it for me; I am
> > only mostly against it.
> >
> > Thanks for any ideas to may have.
> >
> > --
> > Phil Davis
> > 503-307-4363
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From livfoss at mac.com  Mon Oct 28 08:51:50 2019
From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 13:51:50 +0100
Subject: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?
Message-ID: <16DF073A-BFFB-4324-9A05-49B56BDC9C04@mac.com>

Hi all

I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea. However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.

So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off - assuming they?re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say ?a program?, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those on this list who do actually teach this stuff? 

The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years (more, to be truthful) and so can?t project myself well into the mind of that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to actually do the development work.

Hoping for some insights

Graham


From dunbarx at aol.com  Mon Oct 28 09:17:54 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 13:17:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <16DF073A-BFFB-4324-9A05-49B56BDC9C04@mac.com>
References: <16DF073A-BFFB-4324-9A05-49B56BDC9C04@mac.com>
Message-ID: <517554299.1285817.1572268674873@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi.
I have taught several newbies. I always start with a simple app, like an address book. I show how controls are created, and how scripts are built. During that process, I am off in the weeds, writing short handlers showing how the cursor can trigger things like mouseEnter or mouseMove, these messages having nothing to do with the task at hand, but ?rather similar to what we are working on.
This is all way before the message hierarchy or anything intermediate like that. The point is to get them hooked, and that can only happen if the basic simple things appear accessible and comfortable. If you are good at this, it will also appear to be fun.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Samuel via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Graham Samuel <livfoss at mac.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 8:53 am
Subject: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Hi all

I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea. However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.

So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off - assuming they?re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say ?a program?, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those on this list who do actually teach this stuff? 

The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years (more, to be truthful) and so can?t project myself well into the mind of that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to actually do the development work.

Hoping for some insights

Graham
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From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 10:15:22 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 15:15:22 +0100
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
Message-ID: <5F35E02D-9EDA-47F9-A68B-9142026AF32D@hyperhh.de>

The sample stack "DePerspective/Undistort Images 1.0.1"
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/824/DePerspective-Undistort-Images-1-0-1

uses for a given image tesseract if installed on the system (mac/win/linux).


From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 10:26:04 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 15:26:04 +0100
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
Message-ID: <BE6E3217-C904-4BC7-A0D9-4E1A7B12A579@hyperhh.de>

There are also emscripten ports to javascript you could use via
a browser widget (and a CDN if online).

https://tesseract.projectnaptha.com
https://antimatter15.com/ocrad.js/demo.html



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct 28 10:55:57 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:55:57 +0000
Subject: Close oddness
In-Reply-To: <b96c3fbf-f5d4-ffca-ceed-1070e6b80d68@gmail.com>
References: <b96c3fbf-f5d4-ffca-ceed-1070e6b80d68@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5EDEF2A6-3CE1-4C20-9B32-D975FAABE955@iotecdigital.com>

programmatically or using the menu?

Bob S


> On Oct 26, 2019, at 07:45 , Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> When I try to close a stack via
> 
> Close and Remove from Memory
> 
> [ MacOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5.0 ]
> 
> the stack does not close, but I get the
> 
> "Standalone application saved successfully"
> 
> announcement window.
> 
> Richmond.




From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 12:52:28 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:52:28 +0100
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
Message-ID: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>

Hi all,

when I "paste unformatted"*** into the field "styled text"
in the inspector for a field, nothing gets into that namely 
field in the end!?

***Via menu or shortcut

As if I did not paste anything!

Can someone please confirm this before I report this as a bug?
Or is this an undocumented feature? 8-)

Thank you!


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From dunbarx at aol.com  Mon Oct 28 13:01:22 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:01:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>

Klaus.
I get whatever I copied into that inspector field. But it retains the formatting of the source.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Klaus major-k <klaus at major-k.de>
Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 12:53 pm
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"

Hi all,

when I "paste unformatted"*** into the field "styled text"
in the inspector for a field, nothing gets into that namely 
field in the end!?

***Via menu or shortcut

As if I did not paste anything!

Can someone please confirm this before I report this as a bug?
Or is this an undocumented feature? 8-)

Thank you!


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 13:25:53 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:25:53 +0100
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
 <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>

Hi Craig,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 18:01 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Klaus.
> I get whatever I copied into that inspector field. But it retains the formatting of the source.

sure you did "past UNformatted"?

> Craig
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Klaus major-k <klaus at major-k.de>
> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 12:53 pm
> Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> when I "paste unformatted"*** into the field "styled text"
> in the inspector for a field, nothing gets into that namely 
> field in the end!?
> 
> ***Via menu or shortcut
> 
> As if I did not paste anything!
> 
> Can someone please confirm this before I report this as a bug?
> Or is this an undocumented feature? 8-)
> 
> Thank you!

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From dunbarx at aol.com  Mon Oct 28 13:43:45 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:43:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
 <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <2132989911.1398732.1572284625175@mail.yahoo.com>

Klaus.
Yes, from the menu. Works the same as CMD-V.
I get something each way. But it is NOT unformatted, each way.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Klaus major-k <klaus at major-k.de>
Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 1:26 pm
Subject: Re: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"

Hi Craig,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 18:01 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Klaus.
> I get whatever I copied into that inspector field. But it retains the formatting of the source.

sure you did "past UNformatted"?

> Craig
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Klaus major-k <klaus at major-k.de>
> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 12:53 pm
> Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> when I "paste unformatted"*** into the field "styled text"
> in the inspector for a field, nothing gets into that namely 
> field in the end!?
> 
> ***Via menu or shortcut
> 
> As if I did not paste anything!
> 
> Can someone please confirm this before I report this as a bug?
> Or is this an undocumented feature? 8-)
> 
> Thank you!

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 13:51:25 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:51:25 +0100
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <2132989911.1398732.1572284625175@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
 <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>
 <2132989911.1398732.1572284625175@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45CC1BDE-1186-4E17-9C15-DC181CB1A2EC@major-k.de>

Hi Craig,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 18:43 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Klaus.
> Yes, from the menu. Works the same as CMD-V.
> I get something each way. But it is NOT unformatted, each way.

??? 
That works here as advertized, no formatted text after using the shortcut or menu!
Problem, the text does not get into the field on the card!

And when I switch back to the "stacled text" tab of the inspector, the pasted text is also gone!?
Too funky!?

Someone else seeing this?

> Craig

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From phil at pdslabs.net  Mon Oct 28 13:55:39 2019
From: phil at pdslabs.net (Phil Davis)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:55:39 -0700
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
In-Reply-To: <BE6E3217-C904-4BC7-A0D9-4E1A7B12A579@hyperhh.de>
References: <BE6E3217-C904-4BC7-A0D9-4E1A7B12A579@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <4dfab115-10ff-6f35-2ce3-58d592da79d5@pdslabs.net>

Thanks Richmond and hh - really appreciate these ideas. I'll be looking 
into them.

Phil


On 10/28/19 7:26 AM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
> There are also emscripten ports to javascript you could use via
> a browser widget (and a CDN if online).
>
> https://tesseract.projectnaptha.com
> https://antimatter15.com/ocrad.js/demo.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>

-- 
Phil Davis
503-307-4363




From dunbarx at aol.com  Mon Oct 28 14:24:17 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:24:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <45CC1BDE-1186-4E17-9C15-DC181CB1A2EC@major-k.de>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
 <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>
 <2132989911.1398732.1572284625175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <45CC1BDE-1186-4E17-9C15-DC181CB1A2EC@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <1553575363.1398562.1572287057074@mail.yahoo.com>

Klaus.
All works for me here.
It is possible you have not placed a blinking cursor into the inspector field?


-----Original Message-----
From: Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Klaus major-k <klaus at major-k.de>
Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 1:51 pm
Subject: Re: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"

Hi Craig,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 18:43 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Klaus.
> Yes, from the menu. Works the same as CMD-V.
> I get something each way. But it is NOT unformatted, each way.

??? 
That works here as advertized, no formatted text after using the shortcut or menu!
Problem, the text does not get into the field on the card!

And when I switch back to the "stacled text" tab of the inspector, the pasted text is also gone!?
Too funky!?

Someone else seeing this?

> Craig

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 14:29:25 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:29:25 +0200
Subject: Close oddness
In-Reply-To: <5EDEF2A6-3CE1-4C20-9B32-D975FAABE955@iotecdigital.com>
References: <b96c3fbf-f5d4-ffca-ceed-1070e6b80d68@gmail.com>
 <5EDEF2A6-3CE1-4C20-9B32-D975FAABE955@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <add86f44-b8d6-9054-b149-953842ccf9c9@gmail.com>

Using the menu.

On 28.10.19 16:55, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> programmatically or using the menu?
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 26, 2019, at 07:45 , Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>
>> When I try to close a stack via
>>
>> Close and Remove from Memory
>>
>> [ MacOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5.0 ]
>>
>> the stack does not close, but I get the
>>
>> "Standalone application saved successfully"
>>
>> announcement window.
>>
>> Richmond.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 14:32:27 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 19:32:27 +0100
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <1553575363.1398562.1572287057074@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
 <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>
 <2132989911.1398732.1572284625175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <45CC1BDE-1186-4E17-9C15-DC181CB1A2EC@major-k.de>
 <1553575363.1398562.1572287057074@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50D5C321-6929-4BF5-9896-B1E231F0FDA5@major-k.de>

Hi Craig,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 19:24 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Klaus.
> All works for me here.
> It is possible you have not placed a blinking cursor into the inspector field?

I can SEE the pasted (unformatted) text in the field, but the text does not make it into
the field on the cqard. When I switch the TABs in the inspector and get back to "styled text" 
no text in the field in the inspector.

One minute later...

AHA, looks like I need to hit ENTER to "confirm" my pasting!?
Yep, after hitting ENTER it works as exspected, sheeesh... :-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Klaus major-k <klaus at major-k.de>
> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 1:51 pm
> Subject: Re: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
>> Am 28.10.2019 um 18:43 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Klaus.
>> Yes, from the menu. Works the same as CMD-V.
>> I get something each way. But it is NOT unformatted, each way.
> 
> ??? 
> That works here as advertized, no formatted text after using the shortcut or menu!
> Problem, the text does not get into the field on the card!
> 
> And when I switch back to the "stacled text" tab of the inspector, the pasted text is also gone!?
> Too funky!?
> 
> Someone else seeing this?

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From dunbarx at aol.com  Mon Oct 28 14:31:50 2019
From: dunbarx at aol.com (dunbarx at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:31:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <1553575363.1398562.1572287057074@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
 <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>
 <2132989911.1398732.1572284625175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <45CC1BDE-1186-4E17-9C15-DC181CB1A2EC@major-k.de>
 <1553575363.1398562.1572287057074@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1073033872.1385435.1572287510071@mail.yahoo.com>

Klaus.
Now I see what you see. I cannot be sure I did not mess up the procedure earlier because I am getting mixed results. Sometimes the paste is formatted, and sometimes not. . But now when using the menu, if the formatting is indeed plain, nothing appears in the card field.?


-----Original Message-----
From: dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: dunbarx <dunbarx at aol.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"

Klaus.
All works for me here.
It is possible you have not placed a blinking cursor into the inspector field?


-----Original Message-----
From: Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
Cc: Klaus major-k <klaus at major-k.de>
Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 1:51 pm
Subject: Re: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"

Hi Craig,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 18:43 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Klaus.
> Yes, from the menu. Works the same as CMD-V.
> I get something each way. But it is NOT unformatted, each way.

??? 
That works here as advertized, no formatted text after using the shortcut or menu!
Problem, the text does not get into the field on the card!

And when I switch back to the "stacled text" tab of the inspector, the pasted text is also gone!?
Too funky!?

Someone else seeing this?

> Craig

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
_______________________________________________
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use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct 28 15:47:26 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 19:47:26 +0000
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <50D5C321-6929-4BF5-9896-B1E231F0FDA5@major-k.de>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
 <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>
 <2132989911.1398732.1572284625175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <45CC1BDE-1186-4E17-9C15-DC181CB1A2EC@major-k.de>
 <1553575363.1398562.1572287057074@mail.yahoo.com>
 <50D5C321-6929-4BF5-9896-B1E231F0FDA5@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <A71BE9ED-2CAB-428C-8BB3-1817BA9806D4@iotecdigital.com>

Yeah that was one of my gripes about the Tree View widget, which is what the property inspector uses now. There are a few other beefs, but one I have is that when you create a new node, it does not SELECT the node you just created so you can name it. You have to CLICK ON IT, because if you don't you can end up killing a node with sub-nodes by typing in a string. 

I tried looking into the widget itself to see if I could change it's behavior, but I gave up, partly because I don't do this for a living and don't really have the time or wherewithal to do so, and partly because learning to develop widgets appeared to me to be non-trivial. 

Bob S


> On Oct 28, 2019, at 11:32 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
>> Am 28.10.2019 um 19:24 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Klaus.
>> All works for me here.
>> It is possible you have not placed a blinking cursor into the inspector field?
> 
> I can SEE the pasted (unformatted) text in the field, but the text does not make it into
> the field on the cqard. When I switch the TABs in the inspector and get back to "styled text" 
> no text in the field in the inspector.
> 
> One minute later...
> 
> AHA, looks like I need to hit ENTER to "confirm" my pasting!?
> Yep, after hitting ENTER it works as exspected, sheeesh... :-)




From dochawk at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 15:55:27 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:55:27 -0700
Subject: Red Dot Breakpoint Crashes
In-Reply-To: <DF73D88B-EB23-4125-B6EB-D87BCA048350@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A25D959C-B22F-46EC-B6D7-C319F026C2FE@iotecdigital.com>
 <951BE75F-7DE2-4807-A000-93C49EADAC4F@jhjensen.com>
 <8C685930-EFBF-49C2-B5AE-74D43825845D@iotecdigital.com>
 <DF73D88B-EB23-4125-B6EB-D87BCA048350@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <E0858DF4-46E8-4DFD-9305-BC9B424EA4AE@gmail.com>

I *am* truly fascinated that for once, I?m the one not having problems while others are being terrorized by the dreaded Pirate Code Dots . . . .

They sill move around the script in odd ways at times, but the ones that stay put do indeed stop execution where they?re supposed to . . . 


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 28 16:29:22 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 13:29:22 -0700
Subject: callbacks in Mac video player?
Message-ID: <f6b2ebab-cbab-1557-0bb8-d9625c0804cd@fourthworld.com>

The Dictionary says callbacks still work on macOS, but it also says 
they're supported on Linux, where I don't recall callbacks ever being 
supported, and for several years video playback doesn't work at all.

I can't make callbacks work on macOS Catalina using v9.5.

Should they?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 16:57:15 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 21:57:15 +0100
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
Message-ID: <018FFE40-73B5-42DF-A3AE-70B1AC579975@hyperhh.de>

After a second read I think it will be hard to find a service to do that
for you. And this is not doable using tesseract or similar from LiveCode:

AFAIK, no "ordinary" OCR software is able to detect and read horizontal
*and* vertical text and distinguish clearly between the board's "Score
text" and the "Scrabble letters". You (or your service) would have to
write an own "learning routine" for that.

E.g. the algorithm described here:
http://rasdasd.com/projects/Scrabble_Detector/Scrabble_Paper.pdf

There are also approaches for own specialized boards like here
https://github.com/eladj/ScrabbleOCR
You could try to use the java from there via LC Builder's FFI.

> Phil D. wrote:
> I want to [programmatically] take a picture of a Scrabble board and then 
> take from that image the characters displayed in it, and maintain the 
> organization of the text. In other words, I want to convert the text 
> displayed in the image to text strings.
> 
> Any ideas where I should start?
> 
> I would love to be able to do it in my app. However I'm not completely 
> against uploading the image to a service that would do it for me; I am 
> only mostly against it.




From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 17:03:39 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:03:39 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
Message-ID: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>

Hi all,

quick question LC 9.5 on macOS 10.14.6:

We can drag'n'drop text into textfields and 
this works without any scripting.

We can also drag'n'drop one or more files into 
a textfield and the filepath appears in the field 
where we dropped the file(s).

However there does not seem to be any message 
send to the field when dropping a file, but I want 
to catch it.

I tried something like:
--------------------------------
on selectionChanged
  send "doit" to me in 10
end selectionChanged

command doit
  put the selection
end doit
--------------------------------
However I can see the pathname is selected but nothing
appears in the messagebox.

What am I missing or what should I do instead?

Thanks in advance!


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 17:03:44 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 23:03:44 +0200
Subject: The Roadmap
Message-ID: <2ba425bd-3dbc-1851-7d47-10701420f29e@gmail.com>

The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.

https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/

Is there any chance of it being updated?

Richmond.



From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 17:11:46 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:11:46 +0100
Subject: callbacks in Mac video player?
Message-ID: <E94EE85D-7770-45FE-B91A-391472748C34@hyperhh.de>

> Richard G. wrote:
> The Dictionary says callbacks still work on macOS, but it
> also says they're supported on Linux, where I don't recall
> callbacks ever being supported, and for several years video
> playback doesn't work at all.
> I can't make callbacks work on macOS Catalina using v9.5.
> Should they?

Yes. But they don't. Use 8.1.10 or 9.0.5.
TMHO 9.5.0 has effectively "beta" status.




From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 17:15:56 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:15:56 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
Message-ID: <5D81F028-F6AE-4845-8809-F91BB3EAEFFE@hyperhh.de>

on dragDrop
  if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
    put line 1 of the dragData["files"] -- or whatever
  end if
end dragDrop

on dragEnter
  set the dragAction to "copy"
end dragenter



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 17:18:37 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 23:18:37 +0200
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <14f1fc44-6cd1-052a-e5a0-8f805d5d1f76@gmail.com>

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33269

Best, Richmond.

On 28.10.19 23:03, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> quick question LC 9.5 on macOS 10.14.6:
>
> We can drag'n'drop text into textfields and
> this works without any scripting.
>
> We can also drag'n'drop one or more files into
> a textfield and the filepath appears in the field
> where we dropped the file(s).
>
> However there does not seem to be any message
> send to the field when dropping a file, but I want
> to catch it.
>
> I tried something like:
> --------------------------------
> on selectionChanged
>    send "doit" to me in 10
> end selectionChanged
>
> command doit
>    put the selection
> end doit
> --------------------------------
> However I can see the pathname is selected but nothing
> appears in the messagebox.
>
> What am I missing or what should I do instead?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 17:19:46 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 23:19:46 +0200
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <2a6c16ec-5b22-2d2c-b434-0bdc7d0057c9@gmail.com>

|local fldState on mouseEnter if fld "fff" is empty then put "0" into 
fldState end mouseEnter on mouseWithin if fld "fff" is empty then -- do 
nothing else put "1" into fldState end if if fldState > 0 then set the 
textColor of fld "fff" to red end if end mouseWithin |



On 28.10.19 23:03, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> quick question LC 9.5 on macOS 10.14.6:
>
> We can drag'n'drop text into textfields and
> this works without any scripting.
>
> We can also drag'n'drop one or more files into
> a textfield and the filepath appears in the field
> where we dropped the file(s).
>
> However there does not seem to be any message
> send to the field when dropping a file, but I want
> to catch it.
>
> I tried something like:
> --------------------------------
> on selectionChanged
>    send "doit" to me in 10
> end selectionChanged
>
> command doit
>    put the selection
> end doit
> --------------------------------
> However I can see the pathname is selected but nothing
> appears in the messagebox.
>
> What am I missing or what should I do instead?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 17:22:37 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:22:37 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <2a6c16ec-5b22-2d2c-b434-0bdc7d0057c9@gmail.com>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
 <2a6c16ec-5b22-2d2c-b434-0bdc7d0057c9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6A81766-916C-4F66-9A8A-64ECDB06A40E@major-k.de>

Hi Richmond,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 22:19 schrieb Richmond via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> |local fldState on mouseEnter if fld "fff" is empty then put "0" into fldState end mouseEnter on mouseWithin if fld "fff" is empty then -- do nothing else put "1" into fldState end if if fldState > 0 then set the textColor of fld "fff" to red end if end mouseWithin |

sorry, Bulgaria: Zero points 8-)
Definitvely NOT what I am after...

> On 28.10.19 23:03, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> quick question LC 9.5 on macOS 10.14.6:
>> 
>> We can drag'n'drop text into textfields and
>> this works without any scripting.
>> 
>> We can also drag'n'drop one or more files into
>> a textfield and the filepath appears in the field
>> where we dropped the file(s).
>> 
>> However there does not seem to be any message
>> send to the field when dropping a file, but I want
>> to catch it.
>> 
>> I tried something like:
>> --------------------------------
>> on selectionChanged
>>   send "doit" to me in 10
>> end selectionChanged
>> 
>> command doit
>>   put the selection
>> end doit
>> --------------------------------
>> However I can see the pathname is selected but nothing
>> appears in the messagebox.
>> 
>> What am I missing or what should I do instead?
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From phil at pdslabs.net  Mon Oct 28 17:23:37 2019
From: phil at pdslabs.net (Phil Davis)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:23:37 -0700
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
In-Reply-To: <018FFE40-73B5-42DF-A3AE-70B1AC579975@hyperhh.de>
References: <018FFE40-73B5-42DF-A3AE-70B1AC579975@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <ef535ddc-1894-1466-f6f0-6c4911b8be0b@pdslabs.net>

Thanks for the followup on this. I experimented some with tesseract and 
came to the same conclusion.

Since the values assigned to each character are standard wthin Scrabble, 
I don't really need to detect those tiny numerals. But the alpha chars 
are of course essential.

I believe there must be a way to get there. Thankfully no one is 
pressuring me to finish it, so I can explore.

Phil


On 10/28/19 1:57 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
> After a second read I think it will be hard to find a service to do that
> for you. And this is not doable using tesseract or similar from LiveCode:
>
> AFAIK, no "ordinary" OCR software is able to detect and read horizontal
> *and* vertical text and distinguish clearly between the board's "Score
> text" and the "Scrabble letters". You (or your service) would have to
> write an own "learning routine" for that.
>
> E.g. the algorithm described here:
> http://rasdasd.com/projects/Scrabble_Detector/Scrabble_Paper.pdf
>
> There are also approaches for own specialized boards like here
> https://github.com/eladj/ScrabbleOCR
> You could try to use the java from there via LC Builder's FFI.
>
>> Phil D. wrote:
>> I want to [programmatically] take a picture of a Scrabble board and then
>> take from that image the characters displayed in it, and maintain the
>> organization of the text. In other words, I want to convert the text
>> displayed in the image to text strings.
>>
>> Any ideas where I should start?
>>
>> I would love to be able to do it in my app. However I'm not completely
>> against uploading the image to a service that would do it for me; I am
>> only mostly against it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>

-- 
Phil Davis
503-307-4363




From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 17:25:39 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:25:39 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <5D81F028-F6AE-4845-8809-F91BB3EAEFFE@hyperhh.de>
References: <5D81F028-F6AE-4845-8809-F91BB3EAEFFE@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <8B4BD039-51F5-47D6-ADCF-3C2EF164CE09@major-k.de>

Hi Hermann,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 22:15 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> on dragDrop
>  if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
>    put line 1 of the dragData["files"] -- or whatever
>  end if
> end dragDrop
> 
> on dragEnter
>  set the dragAction to "copy"
> end dragenter

thank you, also tried that, but then the pathname does not appear in the field.

I want to:
Drag'n'Drop a file into the field -> works without scripting
The pathname appears in the field and is definitively selected!

However "the selectedtext of fld xyz" is reported to be empty
so is "the selection" and "the selectedchunk" returns the insertion point
right BEFORE the file has been dropped -> char 75 to 74 of fld xyz

I want to get that pathname from inside of the field = AFTER the file has been dropped.


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From paul at researchware.com  Mon Oct 28 17:34:31 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:34:31 -0400
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <8B4BD039-51F5-47D6-ADCF-3C2EF164CE09@major-k.de>
References: <5D81F028-F6AE-4845-8809-F91BB3EAEFFE@hyperhh.de>
 <8B4BD039-51F5-47D6-ADCF-3C2EF164CE09@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <94cb9de1-3ec5-e041-40b2-ddbd6407d218@researchware.com>

On 10/28/2019 5:25 PM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi Hermann,
>
>> Am 28.10.2019 um 22:15 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>
>> on dragDrop
>>   if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
>>     put line 1 of the dragData["files"] -- or whatever
>>   end if
>> end dragDrop
>>
>> on dragEnter
>>   set the dragAction to "copy"
>> end dragenter
> thank you, also tried that, but then the pathname does not appear in the field.
>
> I want to:
> Drag'n'Drop a file into the field -> works without scripting
> The pathname appears in the field and is definitively selected!
>
> However "the selectedtext of fld xyz" is reported to be empty
> so is "the selection" and "the selectedchunk" returns the insertion point
> right BEFORE the file has been dropped -> char 75 to 74 of fld xyz
>
> I want to get that pathname from inside of the field = AFTER the file has been dropped.
>
>

It sounds like a bug that should be reported. If there is text in a 
field (regardless of how it go there (paste, drag drop, typing, or by 
script) and it is selected, the the selection, selectedChunk,a dn all 
related properties should be set. If the text as placed in a field by 
any means other than script (paste, typing, drag drop) a textChanged 
message should be sent. I don't think textChanged is sent if a script 
changes the text.




From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 17:40:31 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:40:31 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <94cb9de1-3ec5-e041-40b2-ddbd6407d218@researchware.com>
References: <5D81F028-F6AE-4845-8809-F91BB3EAEFFE@hyperhh.de>
 <8B4BD039-51F5-47D6-ADCF-3C2EF164CE09@major-k.de>
 <94cb9de1-3ec5-e041-40b2-ddbd6407d218@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <2C2876FC-3338-42E6-914F-7F15456B7B4F@major-k.de>

Hi Paul.

> Am 28.10.2019 um 22:34 schrieb Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> ...
>> 
>>> on dragDrop
>>>  if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
>>>    put line 1 of the dragData["files"] -- or whatever
>>>  end if
>>> end dragDrop
>>> 
>>> on dragEnter
>>>  set the dragAction to "copy"
>>> end dragenter
>> thank you, also tried that, but then the pathname does not appear in the field.
>> 
>> I want to:
>> Drag'n'Drop a file into the field -> works without scripting
>> The pathname appears in the field and is definitively selected!
>> 
>> However "the selectedtext of fld xyz" is reported to be empty
>> so is "the selection" and "the selectedchunk" returns the insertion point
>> right BEFORE the file has been dropped -> char 75 to 74 of fld xyz
>> 
>> I want to get that pathname from inside of the field = AFTER the file has been dropped.
> It sounds like a bug that should be reported. If there is text in a field (regardless of how it go there (paste, drag drop, typing, or by script) and it is selected, the the selection, selectedChunk,a dn all related properties should be set. If the text as placed in a field by any means other than script (paste, typing, drag drop) a textChanged message should be sent. I don't think textChanged is sent if a script changes the text.

YEAH, TEXTCHANGED is what I should use!
This does what I need:
----------------------------------
command doit
  put the selectedtext of me
end doit

on textChanged
  send "doit" to me in 10
end textChanged
------------------------------------
Thank you very much! :-)

However "selectionchanged" should also be triggered, not?


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From paul at researchware.com  Mon Oct 28 17:47:43 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:47:43 -0400
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <2C2876FC-3338-42E6-914F-7F15456B7B4F@major-k.de>
References: <5D81F028-F6AE-4845-8809-F91BB3EAEFFE@hyperhh.de>
 <8B4BD039-51F5-47D6-ADCF-3C2EF164CE09@major-k.de>
 <94cb9de1-3ec5-e041-40b2-ddbd6407d218@researchware.com>
 <2C2876FC-3338-42E6-914F-7F15456B7B4F@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <58b818de-715c-4ea7-4dd7-ddeaf1ed4a1b@researchware.com>

On 10/28/2019 5:40 PM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
> Hi Paul.
>
>> Am 28.10.2019 um 22:34 schrieb Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> ...
>>>> on dragDrop
>>>>   if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
>>>>     put line 1 of the dragData["files"] -- or whatever
>>>>   end if
>>>> end dragDrop
>>>>
>>>> on dragEnter
>>>>   set the dragAction to "copy"
>>>> end dragenter
>>> thank you, also tried that, but then the pathname does not appear in the field.
>>>
>>> I want to:
>>> Drag'n'Drop a file into the field -> works without scripting
>>> The pathname appears in the field and is definitively selected!
>>>
>>> However "the selectedtext of fld xyz" is reported to be empty
>>> so is "the selection" and "the selectedchunk" returns the insertion point
>>> right BEFORE the file has been dropped -> char 75 to 74 of fld xyz
>>>
>>> I want to get that pathname from inside of the field = AFTER the file has been dropped.
>> It sounds like a bug that should be reported. If there is text in a field (regardless of how it go there (paste, drag drop, typing, or by script) and it is selected, the the selection, selectedChunk,a dn all related properties should be set. If the text as placed in a field by any means other than script (paste, typing, drag drop) a textChanged message should be sent. I don't think textChanged is sent if a script changes the text.
> YEAH, TEXTCHANGED is what I should use!
> This does what I need:
> ----------------------------------
> command doit
>    put the selectedtext of me
> end doit
>
> on textChanged
>    send "doit" to me in 10
> end textChanged
> ------------------------------------
> Thank you very much! :-)
>
> However "selectionchanged" should also be triggered, not?
>
>

If there was not a selection in the field and now there is a visible 
selection (as you described) then, yes, a selectionChanged message and, 
to me, more importantly, functions like:

However "the selectedtext of fld xyz" is reported to be empty
so is "the selection" and "the selectedchunk" returns the insertion point
right BEFORE the file has been dropped -> char 75 to 74 of fld xyz

Should reflect the visible selection. If this is not the case, this 
should be reported as a bug - one that I would CC myself on since it 
could impact my apps.




From phil at pdslabs.net  Mon Oct 28 17:49:33 2019
From: phil at pdslabs.net (Phil Davis)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:49:33 -0700
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
In-Reply-To: <ef535ddc-1894-1466-f6f0-6c4911b8be0b@pdslabs.net>
References: <018FFE40-73B5-42DF-A3AE-70B1AC579975@hyperhh.de>
 <ef535ddc-1894-1466-f6f0-6c4911b8be0b@pdslabs.net>
Message-ID: <11fa5f85-1bd2-5fef-1fc3-e3687e0a3de4@pdslabs.net>

One thing I found is when I cropped my test image to include only one 
horizontal word, tesseract handled that fine. So... if I could detect 
the grid pattern in which all the letters are laid out, maybe I could 
feed the letters to an OCR tool one word or char at a time and get the 
results I'm looking for. That would also give me clear info about 
spatial relations between the letters, so I could group them correctly 
into words.

So maybe I should first be asking about detecting the grid established 
by the scrabble letters.

(It's actually Bananagrams letters. My nerdy grandkids like to use 
Scrabble letters when playing Bananagrams so they can see who gets high 
score.)

Thanks -
Phil


On 10/28/19 2:23 PM, Phil Davis via use-livecode wrote:
> Thanks for the followup on this. I experimented some with tesseract 
> and came to the same conclusion.
>
> Since the values assigned to each character are standard wthin 
> Scrabble, I don't really need to detect those tiny numerals. But the 
> alpha chars are of course essential.
>
> I believe there must be a way to get there. Thankfully no one is 
> pressuring me to finish it, so I can explore.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On 10/28/19 1:57 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
>> After a second read I think it will be hard to find a service to do that
>> for you. And this is not doable using tesseract or similar from 
>> LiveCode:
>>
>> AFAIK, no "ordinary" OCR software is able to detect and read horizontal
>> *and* vertical text and distinguish clearly between the board's "Score
>> text" and the "Scrabble letters". You (or your service) would have to
>> write an own "learning routine" for that.
>>
>> E.g. the algorithm described here:
>> http://rasdasd.com/projects/Scrabble_Detector/Scrabble_Paper.pdf
>>
>> There are also approaches for own specialized boards like here
>> https://github.com/eladj/ScrabbleOCR
>> You could try to use the java from there via LC Builder's FFI.
>>
>>> Phil D. wrote:
>>> I want to [programmatically] take a picture of a Scrabble board and 
>>> then
>>> take from that image the characters displayed in it, and maintain the
>>> organization of the text. In other words, I want to convert the text
>>> displayed in the image to text strings.
>>>
>>> Any ideas where I should start?
>>>
>>> I would love to be able to do it in my app. However I'm not completely
>>> against uploading the image to a service that would do it for me; I am
>>> only mostly against it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>

-- 
Phil Davis
503-307-4363




From klaus at major-k.de  Mon Oct 28 18:01:48 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 23:01:48 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <58b818de-715c-4ea7-4dd7-ddeaf1ed4a1b@researchware.com>
References: <5D81F028-F6AE-4845-8809-F91BB3EAEFFE@hyperhh.de>
 <8B4BD039-51F5-47D6-ADCF-3C2EF164CE09@major-k.de>
 <94cb9de1-3ec5-e041-40b2-ddbd6407d218@researchware.com>
 <2C2876FC-3338-42E6-914F-7F15456B7B4F@major-k.de>
 <58b818de-715c-4ea7-4dd7-ddeaf1ed4a1b@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <45A29D39-779F-4685-8CAB-277D8E6352D8@major-k.de>

Hi Paul,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 22:47 schrieb Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> On 10/28/2019 5:40 PM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi Paul.
>> ....
>>> It sounds like a bug that should be reported. If there is text in a field (regardless of how it go there (paste, drag drop, typing, or by script) and it is selected, the the selection, selectedChunk,a dn all related properties should be set. If the text as placed in a field by any means other than script (paste, typing, drag drop) a textChanged message should be sent. I don't think textChanged is sent if a script changes the text.
>> YEAH, TEXTCHANGED is what I should use!
>> This does what I need:
>> ----------------------------------
>> command doit
>>   put the selectedtext of me
>> end doit
>> 
>> on textChanged
>>   send "doit" to me in 10
>> end textChanged
>> ------------------------------------
>> Thank you very much! :-)
>> 
>> However "selectionchanged" should also be triggered, not?
> 
> If there was not a selection in the field and now there is a visible selection (as you described) then, yes, a selectionChanged message and, to me, more importantly, functions like:
> 
> However "the selectedtext of fld xyz" is reported to be empty
> so is "the selection" and "the selectedchunk" returns the insertion point
> right BEFORE the file has been dropped -> char 75 to 74 of fld xyz
> 
> Should reflect the visible selection. If this is not the case, this should be reported as a bug - one that I would CC myself on since it could impact my apps.

Sure, will report this tomorrow!
Again, thanks for pointing me to "textchanged"! :-)


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From paulmcclernan at gmail.com  Mon Oct 28 18:30:55 2019
From: paulmcclernan at gmail.com (Paul McClernan)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:30:55 -0400
Subject: Merge PDF
In-Reply-To: <000401d58507$d05b5750$711205f0$@FlexibleLearning.com>
References: <000401d58507$d05b5750$711205f0$@FlexibleLearning.com>
Message-ID: <CA+mv_tXuf0CiuLsABUw+cHTgBJh1jMf2VWFf-3z3c6=k5p5FvA@mail.gmail.com>

Not to my knowledge, but I'm sure it's completely doable. I once created an
LC script that could extract embedded JPEGs from inside PDFs. The PDF File
Format docs have been made available by Adobe (back in 2011 I think).

Another option would be to use Shell() function with one of the PDF
command-line tools that are around, like the free PDFtk for example.

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:28 PM FlexibleLearning.com via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Has anyone got an LC-based method to merge pdf files?
>
> Just asking...
>
> Hugh Senior
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From brahma at hindu.org  Mon Oct 28 18:34:07 2019
From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:34:07 +0000
Subject: No internet!
Message-ID: <BYAPR14MB25504D9A7056869490363E86C5660@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

The internet  cable 15 miles off Kapahi on the bottom of the ocean was cut last night! Because our Island has  the most important Missile range of the Pacific , we wonder if North Korean divers did it. Hehe just joking. But how does a cable half mile down under the surface get cut?

Very interesting to watch my app try to ping for a connection

Put uRL ?https://www.himalayanacademy.com/ping.txt? into tConnection

Should return ?true? right away....but takes forever with cable cut. I think it is looking for DNS first, can?t get dns first.

What the best way to set up a timeout for this scenario?

It probably a good thing. As connectivity in our app needs more work

(Sent for my mobile)


Satchiai Iru - Be a Witness


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct 28 18:36:04 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:36:04 +0000
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <4C1648CD-9478-4B82-9BF5-21D5AF2701CF@iotecdigital.com>

on dragDrop doesn't trigger? 

on dragDrop
  put the dragData ["text"] into tDragText
end dragDrop

Bob S


> On Oct 28, 2019, at 14:03 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> quick question LC 9.5 on macOS 10.14.6:
> 
> We can drag'n'drop text into textfields and 
> this works without any scripting.
> 
> We can also drag'n'drop one or more files into 
> a textfield and the filepath appears in the field 
> where we dropped the file(s).
> 
> However there does not seem to be any message 
> send to the field when dropping a file, but I want 
> to catch it.
> 
> I tried something like:
> --------------------------------
> on selectionChanged
>  send "doit" to me in 10
> end selectionChanged
> 
> command doit
>  put the selection
> end doit
> --------------------------------
> However I can see the pathname is selected but nothing
> appears in the messagebox.
> 
> What am I missing or what should I do instead?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Mon Oct 28 18:36:53 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:36:53 +0000
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <C6A81766-916C-4F66-9A8A-64ECDB06A40E@major-k.de>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
 <2a6c16ec-5b22-2d2c-b434-0bdc7d0057c9@gmail.com>
 <C6A81766-916C-4F66-9A8A-64ECDB06A40E@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <33BE7345-9739-45A7-84BC-AA441C032983@iotecdigital.com>

If the field is locked you may have to set the dragActio to Copy on mouseEnter

Bob S




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 28 19:16:22 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 16:16:22 -0700
Subject: callbacks in Mac video player?
In-Reply-To: <E94EE85D-7770-45FE-B91A-391472748C34@hyperhh.de>
References: <E94EE85D-7770-45FE-B91A-391472748C34@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <de6535ad-69ea-c686-d511-d77b2e64f7ee@fourthworld.com>

hh wrote:
 >> Richard G. wrote:
 >> The Dictionary says callbacks still work on macOS, but it
 >> also says they're supported on Linux, where I don't recall
 >> callbacks ever being supported, and for several years video
 >> playback doesn't work at all.
 >> I can't make callbacks work on macOS Catalina using v9.5.
 >> Should they?
 >
 > Yes. But they don't. Use 8.1.10 or 9.0.5.

Thanks.  Unfortunately the reason I'm looking into this is to replace an 
old component dependent on 32-bit macOS, now that many are "upgrading" 
to Catalina.

::sigh::

I searched the bug DB, but couldn't find the report for this.  Do you 
know offhand what it's titled?

If we can't find a way to do video callbacks in LC our plan is to 
rewrite the app in HTML for the web.



I hear FileMaker users think video callbacks are really important....

;)

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Mon Oct 28 19:19:24 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 16:19:24 -0700
Subject: No internet!
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR14MB25504D9A7056869490363E86C5660@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR14MB25504D9A7056869490363E86C5660@BYAPR14MB2550.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5ed0a1f4-87a9-8ff3-6d93-a1bae07956cc@sonic.net>

On 10/28/19 3:34 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:
> The internet  cable 15 miles off Kapahi on the bottom of the ocean was cut last night! Because our Island has  the most important Missile range of the Pacific , we wonder if North Korean divers did it. Hehe just joking. But how does a cable half mile down under the surface get cut?

Makes an appointment at local barber shop?

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 19:55:08 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 00:55:08 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
Message-ID: <688DAB65-1DC2-48FA-AB7B-F98951E9ED8B@hyperhh.de>

Hi Klaus.

>> I wrote:
>> on dragDrop
>>   if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
>>     put line 1 of the dragData["files"] -- or whatever
>>   end if
>> end dragDrop
>>
>> on dragEnter
>>   set the dragAction to "copy"
>> end dragenter

> You wrote:
> .. also tried that, but then the pathname does not appear in the field.
> I want to:
> Drag'n'Drop a file into the field -> works without scripting
> The pathname appears in the field and is definitively selected!

Three remarks.

1. the filename ends up in the message box if you dont use the "whatever" ;-)
2. textchanged is also a script ;-)
3. Your method doesn't work for locked fields, the following does:

on dragDrop
  if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
    put line 1 of the dragData["files"] into fn
    focus on me; put the selectedChunk into sc
    put fn into the selection
    if sc is not empty then select char (word 2 of sc) to \
          (word 2 of sc +len(fn)-1) of me
  end if
end dragDrop

on dragEnter
  set the dragAction to "copy"
end dragenter




From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 20:15:05 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 01:15:05 +0100
Subject: callbacks in Mac video player?
Message-ID: <FBE66705-F5D2-41A8-8A91-07F0A2F1E3EF@hyperhh.de>

> Richard G. wrote:
> Thanks. Unfortunately the reason I'm looking into this is to replace an 
> old component dependent on 32-bit macOS, now that many are "upgrading" 
> to Catalina.

Richard, 9.0.5 WORKS, also its standalones (check 64 bit), on Catalina...
Even 8.1.10 can build (experimental) 64bit standalones.

> I searched the bug DB, but couldn't find the report for this.  Do you 
> know offhand what it's titled?

I gave up to report all the regressions I suffer from with 9.5 on Catalina ...
I'm not a beta tester. At least as long as not even my tiniest wishes for HTML5
and LCB (incl. Browser widget) are fulfilled.

> If we can't find a way to do video callbacks in LC our plan is to rewrite the
> app in HTML for the web.

It would be easy to do that in a HTML5 standalone, even if you need webRTC/
getUserMedia. But the rest of your shining layout is probably rather unfinished
in the HTML5 standalone builder.


From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 20:43:39 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 01:43:39 +0100
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
Message-ID: <EC39FD8C-3493-48E9-B60C-5D46AD7ED330@hyperhh.de>

> Phil D. wrote:
> So maybe I should first be asking about detecting the grid
> established by the scrabble letters. 

You need some criteria to find the topleft of the grid and the
size of one letter: color/transparency/a marker(fixed image part)...
You could also use pattern recognition for that.

Then it's the easy part to get all possible letters by computing the
grid and crop (get from imageData) the grid elements by script.
Then doing the OCR for each single char.

If you need that for a standalone, then 'tesseract' with its huge
language packs is probably not appropriate and 'ocrad' could be
good enough for that.



From hh at hyperhh.de  Mon Oct 28 21:28:59 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 02:28:59 +0100
Subject: OCR-Lite_v100 
Message-ID: <2D56C588-0A7D-4700-A630-4BE6F2C170D6@hyperhh.de>

The stack OCR-Lite is a GUI to the JS library by Kevin Kwok
https://github.com/antimatter15/ocrad.js
which is in turn an emscripten port to GNU Ocrad by Antonio Diaz Diaz
https://www.gnu.org/software/ocrad/ocrad.html
The library is included in the stack, so you can use it offline.
The License is GNU GENERAL PUBLIC v3.0
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html

Of course, tesseract has better results but it needs around 10 MByte
of trainingData for each language.
Ocrad.js has < 1 MByte size and yields, TMHO, in average good results.

The stack runs (offline) using LC 8.1.10/9.0.5/9.5 on MacOS > 10.12
and using LC 9.0.5, on win 7/10 and linux (ubuntu1604). Be patient on
windows, it's a bit slower than on Mac.

You only have to import your images and hit the "OCR" button.

Download OCR-Lite it from "SampleStacks" of the LC toolbar or from
http://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/953/




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Mon Oct 28 23:33:02 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:33:02 -0700
Subject: callbacks in Mac video player?
In-Reply-To: <FBE66705-F5D2-41A8-8A91-07F0A2F1E3EF@hyperhh.de>
References: <FBE66705-F5D2-41A8-8A91-07F0A2F1E3EF@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <a81b9178-a7fa-6800-bfa1-165db236deed@fourthworld.com>

hh wrote:

 >> Richard G. wrote:
 >> Thanks. Unfortunately the reason I'm looking into this is to replace
 >> an old component dependent on 32-bit macOS, now that many are
 >> "upgrading" to Catalina.
 >
 > Richard, 9.0.5 WORKS, also its standalones (check 64 bit), on
 > Catalina...

Indeed it does.  And I stand corrected: callbacks apparently work in 
v9.5 under Catalina as well.

Man, sure would be nice to be able to do that on Linux....


 >> I searched the bug DB, but couldn't find the report for this.  Do you
 >> know offhand what it's titled?
 >
 > I gave up to report all the regressions I suffer from with 9.5 on
 > Catalina ...

That callbacks are working in 9.5 explains why I wasn't able to find a 
bug report against them. :)


 > I'm not a beta tester. At least as long as not even my tiniest wishes
 > for HTML5 and LCB (incl. Browser widget) are fulfilled.

What do you need from LCB that's missing?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 04:59:27 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 09:59:27 +0100
Subject: past unformatted & inspector field "styled text"
In-Reply-To: <50D5C321-6929-4BF5-9896-B1E231F0FDA5@major-k.de>
References: <FBF5DAC0-9A6E-4824-887B-483D019A4E9E@major-k.de>
 <980597239.1358487.1572282082496@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E612EC49-CCA0-4F90-8FDA-0BA5758A1654@major-k.de>
 <2132989911.1398732.1572284625175@mail.yahoo.com>
 <45CC1BDE-1186-4E17-9C15-DC181CB1A2EC@major-k.de>
 <1553575363.1398562.1572287057074@mail.yahoo.com>
 <50D5C321-6929-4BF5-9896-B1E231F0FDA5@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <F1521052-A2D4-4CCF-921F-0D75F22BC915@major-k.de>

Hi all,

> Am 28.10.2019 um 19:32 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
>> Am 28.10.2019 um 19:24 schrieb dunbarx--- via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Klaus.
>> All works for me here.
>> It is possible you have not placed a blinking cursor into the inspector field?
> 
> I can SEE the pasted (unformatted) text in the field, but the text does not make it into
> the field on the cqard. When I switch the TABs in the inspector and get back to "styled text" 
> no text in the field in the inspector.
> 
> One minute later...
> 
> AHA, looks like I need to hit ENTER to "confirm" my pasting!?
> Yep, after hitting ENTER it works as exspected, sheeesh... :-)

reported: <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22432>


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 05:13:50 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:13:50 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <688DAB65-1DC2-48FA-AB7B-F98951E9ED8B@hyperhh.de>
References: <688DAB65-1DC2-48FA-AB7B-F98951E9ED8B@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <CC0A37A4-9708-4546-B66D-F9148227D902@major-k.de>

Hi Hermann,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 00:55 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hi Klaus.
> 
>>> I wrote:
>>> on dragDrop
>>>  if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
>>>    put line 1 of the dragData["files"] -- or whatever
>>>  end if
>>> end dragDrop
>>> 
>>> on dragEnter
>>>  set the dragAction to "copy"
>>> end dragenter
> 
>> You wrote:
>> .. also tried that, but then the pathname does not appear in the field.
>> I want to:
>> Drag'n'Drop a file into the field -> works without scripting
>> The pathname appears in the field and is definitively selected!
> 
> Three remarks.
> 1. the filename ends up in the message box if you dont use the "whatever" ;-)

I guessed! 8-)

> 2. textchanged is also a script ;-)

Yep, I meant without any "dragxxx" script. 
CoughnitpickerCough... ;-)

> 3. Your method doesn't work for locked fields, the following does:
> on dragDrop
>  if "files" is among the keys of the dragData then
>    put line 1 of the dragData["files"] into fn
>    focus on me; put the selectedChunk into sc
>    put fn into the selection
>    if sc is not empty then select char (word 2 of sc) to \
>          (word 2 of sc +len(fn)-1) of me
>  end if
> end dragDrop
> 
> on dragEnter
>  set the dragAction to "copy"
> end dragenter

Thanks, but my field is unlocked.

I reported the problem that "selectionchanged" does not get triggered:
<https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22433>


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de


From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 08:32:24 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:32:24 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
Message-ID: <62E5ECAA-A90E-47E7-B07E-B77418321CD5@hyperhh.de>

> Klaus M. wrote:
> Yep, I meant without any "dragxxx" script. 

Why do you fear "dragxxx"?  ;-)



From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 08:35:46 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:35:46 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <62E5ECAA-A90E-47E7-B07E-B77418321CD5@hyperhh.de>
References: <62E5ECAA-A90E-47E7-B07E-B77418321CD5@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <53A85B66-BFA4-482C-A9F6-9AE34B4C1A72@major-k.de>

Hallo Hermann,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 13:32 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>> Klaus M. wrote:
>> Yep, I meant without any "dragxxx" script. 
> Why do you fear "dragxxx"?  ;-)

I really don't! 

But if it works out-of-the box without any dragXXX scripting,
I highly welcome this, lazy moi. :-)


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 08:41:11 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:41:11 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
Message-ID: <2BCE7862-E79A-4199-AD9A-D49844DA34B6@hyperhh.de>

>> I wrote:  Why do you fear "dragxxx"? ;-) 
> You wrote: I really don't!

I really know. Was a 'language' joke, sorry.



From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 08:46:44 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:46:44 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <2BCE7862-E79A-4199-AD9A-D49844DA34B6@hyperhh.de>
References: <2BCE7862-E79A-4199-AD9A-D49844DA34B6@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <CBBDAD8A-6D30-4FCA-A406-BA212AC62D13@major-k.de>

Hi Hermann,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 13:41 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>>> I wrote:  Why do you fear "dragxxx"? ;-) 
>> You wrote: I really don't!
> 
> I really know. Was a 'language' joke, sorry.

AHA! Now I get it (I think)! 8-)

Well my first professional job as a musician (bass player) was at "Circus Roncalli" 
in 1986, where I spent several months, so anything DRAGxxx related is not new to me 
nor something I am afraid of at all, if you know what I mean. :-)


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 08:50:27 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:50:27 +0100
Subject: callbacks in Mac video player?
Message-ID: <88473CFD-90D7-4413-99ED-D0DBB68E78A9@hyperhh.de>

> Richard G. wrote:
> I stand corrected: callbacks apparently work in v9.5 under Catalina as well.

True, works here also, sorry all for the wrong info.
[Looked at my earlier tests. The problem there was the msgbox (kept hidden).]

> What do you need from LCB that's missing?

an up-to-date browser widget/libbrowser,
'set my rectangle',
basic keyboard support,
base64Encode/Decode (this is nearly done),
call JS from LCB without using a browser widget.




From brian at milby7.com  Tue Oct 29 09:47:39 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 09:47:39 -0400
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <eda42f02-0387-49e0-9345-d677d0d89277@Spark>

It looks like selectionChanged only reacts to explicit user events (mouse click or cursor moved via keyboard navigation). ?If I select a chunk of text in another app and drag it in, the same thing happens (it is selected but no selectionChanged message). ?If I script a button to select a chunk, no message either. ?No message is sent when you cut/paste over/delete a chunk of selected text. ?When you paste in text, the selection changes (cursor position moves) but no message is sent.

I did my testing on a Mac.

I think it is probably more of a documentation issue based on how it works.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 28, 2019, 5:03 PM -0400, Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> quick question LC 9.5 on macOS 10.14.6:
>
> We can drag'n'drop text into textfields and
> this works without any scripting.
>
> We can also drag'n'drop one or more files into
> a textfield and the filepath appears in the field
> where we dropped the file(s).
>
> However there does not seem to be any message
> send to the field when dropping a file, but I want
> to catch it.
>
> I tried something like:
> --------------------------------
> on selectionChanged
> send "doit" to me in 10
> end selectionChanged
>
> command doit
> put the selection
> end doit
> --------------------------------
> However I can see the pathname is selected but nothing
> appears in the messagebox.
>
> What am I missing or what should I do instead?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 09:51:56 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 14:51:56 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <eda42f02-0387-49e0-9345-d677d0d89277@Spark>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
 <eda42f02-0387-49e0-9345-d677d0d89277@Spark>
Message-ID: <8B8BDA95-36CF-45EA-B30F-FCB33FA71E42@major-k.de>

Hi Brian,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 14:47 schrieb Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> It looks like selectionChanged only reacts to explicit user events (mouse click or cursor moved via keyboard navigation).  If I select a chunk of text in another app and drag it in, the same thing happens (it is selected but no selectionChanged message).  If I script a button to select a chunk, no message either.  No message is sent when you cut/paste over/delete a chunk of selected text.  When you paste in text, the selection changes (cursor position moves) but no message is sent.
> 
> I did my testing on a Mac.
> 
> I think it is probably more of a documentation issue based on how it works.

yes, maybe, at least this (docs or bug) needs to get fixed. :-)

> Thanks,
> Brian

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From nabble at mad.pink  Tue Oct 29 10:19:10 2019
From: nabble at mad.pink (Pink)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:19:10 -0400
Subject: Need trig & LCB help
Message-ID: <cd56a4ebb2392e2e48b74823e6adb601@mad.pink>

In a nutshell, I am working on a widget that consists of a wheel with
buttons. Currently I've just manually calculated out where 8 buttons go, 
and
it works well, but I am trying to set it up with a user definable number 
of
buttons contained in array "mData."

Need help checking my math (and LCB syntax.) I took out some of the 
syntax
like setting paints and some other fluff, this is just calculating the
positions of each circle.

     -- tBigRad is the radius of the main circle across the widget
     if my width > my height then
       put my height/2 into tBigRad
     else
       put my width/2 into tBigRad
     end if

     -- tLilRad is the radius of each small button around the edge
     put tBigRad/4 into tLilRad

     -- finding the coordinates of the center of the main circle
     put my width/2 into tBigX
     put my height/2 into tBigY
     put point [(my width/2),(my height/2)] into tCenter
     fill circle path centered at tCenter with radius tBigRad on this 
canvas

     -- create an "inner circle" by subtracting the radius of a button 
from
the radius of the main circle
     put tBigRad - tLilRad into tInnerRad
     -- calculate angle in radians from the for the center of each button
     put (the number of elements in mData)/(2 * pi()) into tButtonAngles

     repeat with tButtonNumber from 1 up to the number of elements in 
mData
       put tInnerRad * (tButtonNumber-1 * tButtonAngles) into tAngle
       put tBigX * cos(tAngle * pi()) into tButtonX
       put tBigY * sin(tAngle * pi()) into tButtonY
       put point [tButtonX, tButtonY] into tButtonCenter
       fill circle path centered at tButtonCenter with radius tLilRad on 
this
canvas
     end repeat



From paul at researchware.com  Tue Oct 29 10:58:02 2019
From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:58:02 -0400
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <eda42f02-0387-49e0-9345-d677d0d89277@Spark>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
 <eda42f02-0387-49e0-9345-d677d0d89277@Spark>
Message-ID: <fcad8638-0c5c-4849-7152-073dfa9dce64@researchware.com>

On 10/29/2019 9:47 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> It looks like selectionChanged only reacts to explicit user events (mouse click or cursor moved via keyboard navigation).
I, for one, would consider user-driven pasting of text or user driven 
drag and drop to be 'explicit user events', so I would still consider 
this an engine bug rather than a documentation bug.



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Tue Oct 29 11:02:56 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 15:02:56 +0000
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <fcad8638-0c5c-4849-7152-073dfa9dce64@researchware.com>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
 <eda42f02-0387-49e0-9345-d677d0d89277@Spark>
 <fcad8638-0c5c-4849-7152-073dfa9dce64@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <46B35423-6AD1-4847-92DA-7B29C913BE80@iotecdigital.com>

I disagree. Having these commands allows developrs to precicely control what happens during a drag and drop operation, or to prevent drag and drop if they want to. 

Bob S


> On Oct 29, 2019, at 07:58 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10/29/2019 9:47 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
>> It looks like selectionChanged only reacts to explicit user events (mouse click or cursor moved via keyboard navigation).
> I, for one, would consider user-driven pasting of text or user driven drag and drop to be 'explicit user events', so I would still consider this an engine bug rather than a documentation bug.




From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 11:30:34 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 16:30:34 +0100
Subject: Need trig & LCB help
Message-ID: <F02D91A6-CA67-48C9-A526-EA96945540DC@hyperhh.de>

Replace the last part of your handler with the following.

variable tBNum as Number
variable tBCenters as List

put tBigRad - tLilRad into tInnerRad
put the number of elements in mData into tBNum
put regularPoints([tBNum,tInnerRad,tBigX,tBigY]) into tBCenters
repeat with tButtonNumber from 1 up to tBNum
   fill circle path centered at tBCenters[tButtonNumber] \
        with radius tLilRad on this canvas
end repeat

-- returns list of N regular (=evenly spaced) circle points 
-- starting at high noon, turning clockwise
-- pL = [numOfPoints,radius,centerX,centerY]
handler regularPoints (in pL as List) returns List
  variable tI as Number
  variable tPi as Number
  variable tPts as List
  put 2*pi/pL[1] into tPi
  put [] into tPts
  repeat with tI from 0 up to pL[1]-1
    push point \
    [pL[3]+pL[2]*sin(tI*tPi), pL[4]-pL[2]*cos(tI*tPi)] onto tPts
  end repeat
  return tPts
end polyPoints

[Untested, right out of my head, should work.]



From iphonelagi at gmail.com  Tue Oct 29 11:55:00 2019
From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 15:55:00 +0000
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <2ba425bd-3dbc-1851-7d47-10701420f29e@gmail.com>
References: <2ba425bd-3dbc-1851-7d47-10701420f29e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1h1VDkVdThUojHNTh-618C_vTg-tFLAdNNoM_MBP-m1548Xg@mail.gmail.com>

The silence is deafening. :-(

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 at 21:04, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>
> Is there any chance of it being updated?
>
> Richmond.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Tue Oct 29 12:51:03 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 09:51:03 -0700
Subject: pdf conversion
Message-ID: <8341a2cc-0153-dbf5-a812-1ce02a437f0a@sonic.net>

I just got an email about this pdf-ocr converter. I haven't tried it 
myself, but for the $15 price drop for a lifetime license it seems worth 
checking out. Should be possible to invoke a (OSX) shell command to do 
the conversion.

The usual caveats about ocr accuracy apply, of course.

https://www.macheist.com/sales/pdf-converter-ocr-6-lifetime-license

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 13:24:31 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:24:31 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
Message-ID: <C9A0EB77-F119-45F7-9581-2414303B19F5@major-k.de>

Hi all,

macOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5

I have a file created with BBEdit with this content:
------------------------------------------
<html><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<title>-</title>
</head>
<body>
<p>?????????</p>
</body></html>
-------------------------------------------
Then I set the url of a browser widget to that file.
All fine so far...

Now I want to add some more text with umlauts to that file:
...
put the htmltext of widget "browser" into tText
## Looks exactly like the above in the debugger!

put "<p>??????</p>" & CR before line -1 of tText
## Last line is the footer -> </body></html>
## And when I set the HTMLtext of widget "browser" to tText, all is fine, too
set the htmltext of widget "browser" to tText

## Then I do:
put textencode(tTExt,"UTF8") into url("file:" & specialfolderpath("desktop") & "/test.html")
...

When I now load that file into the widget:
...
set the url of widget "browser" to (specialfolderpath("desktop") & "/test.html")
...
Umlauts are gone like -> ?????????????????? or worse

If I paste the same content (of tText copied from LC) in BBEdit and save the file it looks great
in the browser widget and Safari.

What am I missing or doing wrong?
Clueless... :-/

Thanks a lot in advance!


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 13:32:57 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:32:57 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
In-Reply-To: <C9A0EB77-F119-45F7-9581-2414303B19F5@major-k.de>
References: <C9A0EB77-F119-45F7-9581-2414303B19F5@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <4F1E6C16-E07B-49C4-ADB7-40B1D46D8334@major-k.de>



> Am 29.10.2019 um 18:24 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> macOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5
> 
> I have a file created with BBEdit with this content:
> ------------------------------------------
> <html><head>
> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
> <title>-</title>
> </head>
> <body>
> <p>?????????</p>
> </body></html>
> -------------------------------------------
> Then I set the url of a browser widget to that file.
> All fine so far...
> 
> Now I want to add some more text with umlauts to that file:
> ...
> ## put the htmltext of widget "browser" into tText
> ## Looks exactly like the above in the debugger!

## it makes NO difference if I first do this instead:
put textdecode( the htmltext of widget "browser","Native") into tText
...

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From brian at milby7.com  Tue Oct 29 13:34:48 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:34:48 -0400
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <fcad8638-0c5c-4849-7152-073dfa9dce64@researchware.com>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
 <eda42f02-0387-49e0-9345-d677d0d89277@Spark>
 <fcad8638-0c5c-4849-7152-073dfa9dce64@researchware.com>
Message-ID: <2defb9aa-ee72-4972-b524-2ff4d0529cf9@Spark>

In those cases the selection change is a side effect of something else. ?The user isn?t changing the selection, the user is doing something else that changes the selection. ?As this thread covered, the textchanged message is sent.

I think it fully makes sense to only send one of those two messages. ?Otherwise just about every key press inside a field would generate 2 messages.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 29, 2019, 10:59 AM -0400, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> On 10/29/2019 9:47 AM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> > It looks like selectionChanged only reacts to explicit user events (mouse click or cursor moved via keyboard navigation).
> I, for one, would consider user-driven pasting of text or user driven
> drag and drop to be 'explicit user events', so I would still consider
> this an engine bug rather than a documentation bug.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 13:39:01 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:39:01 +0100
Subject: drag'n'drop in text fields
In-Reply-To: <2defb9aa-ee72-4972-b524-2ff4d0529cf9@Spark>
References: <F47DCD87-EEEF-4434-A0F5-CF1F8E2F73F4@major-k.de>
 <eda42f02-0387-49e0-9345-d677d0d89277@Spark>
 <fcad8638-0c5c-4849-7152-073dfa9dce64@researchware.com>
 <2defb9aa-ee72-4972-b524-2ff4d0529cf9@Spark>
Message-ID: <890BAD5A-106D-43A3-819D-034AB5657305@major-k.de>

Hi Brian,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 18:34 schrieb Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> In those cases the selection change is a side effect of something else.  The user isn?t changing the selection, the user is doing something else that changes the selection.  As this thread covered, the textchanged message is sent.
> 
> I think it fully makes sense to only send one of those two messages.  

noone wanted to do that. 8-)
I replaced "on selectionchanged" with "on textchanged" and that solved my problem.

> Otherwise just about every key press inside a field would generate 2 messages.
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From brian at milby7.com  Tue Oct 29 13:44:02 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:44:02 -0400
Subject: encoding woes!?
In-Reply-To: <4F1E6C16-E07B-49C4-ADB7-40B1D46D8334@major-k.de>
References: <C9A0EB77-F119-45F7-9581-2414303B19F5@major-k.de>
 <4F1E6C16-E07B-49C4-ADB7-40B1D46D8334@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <5ee46ebd-5399-4a38-b086-2b9720368adf@Spark>

Binfile?

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 29, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>
>
> > Am 29.10.2019 um 18:24 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > macOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5
> >
> > I have a file created with BBEdit with this content:
> > ------------------------------------------
> > <html><head>
> > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
> > <title>-</title>
> > </head>
> > <body>
> > <p>?????????</p>
> > </body></html>
> > -------------------------------------------
> > Then I set the url of a browser widget to that file.
> > All fine so far...
> >
> > Now I want to add some more text with umlauts to that file:
> > ...
> > ## put the htmltext of widget "browser" into tText
> > ## Looks exactly like the above in the debugger!
>
> ## it makes NO difference if I first do this instead:
> put textdecode( the htmltext of widget "browser","Native") into tText
> ...
>
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 13:46:49 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:46:49 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
In-Reply-To: <5ee46ebd-5399-4a38-b086-2b9720368adf@Spark>
References: <C9A0EB77-F119-45F7-9581-2414303B19F5@major-k.de>
 <4F1E6C16-E07B-49C4-ADB7-40B1D46D8334@major-k.de>
 <5ee46ebd-5399-4a38-b086-2b9720368adf@Spark>
Message-ID: <10302053-5C5A-48E5-AFE3-528AD15D62BC@major-k.de>

Hi Brian,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 18:44 schrieb Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Binfile?

tried that, no difference.
The dictionary als uses just FILE in the examples.

> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 29, 2019, 1:33 PM -0400, Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 29.10.2019 um 18:24 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> macOS 10.14.6, LC 9.5
>>> 
>>> I have a file created with BBEdit with this content:
>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> <html><head>
>>> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
>>> <title>-</title>
>>> </head>
>>> <body>
>>> <p>?????????</p>
>>> </body></html>
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> Then I set the url of a browser widget to that file.
>>> All fine so far...
>>> 
>>> Now I want to add some more text with umlauts to that file:
>>> ...
>>> ## put the htmltext of widget "browser" into tText
>>> ## Looks exactly like the above in the debugger!
>> 
>> ## it makes NO difference if I first do this instead:
>> put textdecode( the htmltext of widget "browser","Native") into tText
>> ...

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From phil at pdslabs.net  Tue Oct 29 14:11:11 2019
From: phil at pdslabs.net (Phil Davis)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 11:11:11 -0700
Subject: identifying text chars in an image
In-Reply-To: <EC39FD8C-3493-48E9-B60C-5D46AD7ED330@hyperhh.de>
References: <EC39FD8C-3493-48E9-B60C-5D46AD7ED330@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <a99b0425-8d92-d1f0-a657-d0f7d174eb00@pdslabs.net>

Thanks for your great ideas Hermann. In my next experiment I think I'll 
start by looking for any scrabble tile by looking for its [known] 
background color, and then work out to its edges. That should give me 
both the grid cell size and a starting point for discovering all cells 
in the grid.

Unless anyone knows of something simpler?

Thanks -
Phil



On 10/28/19 5:43 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
>> Phil D. wrote:
>> So maybe I should first be asking about detecting the grid
>> established by the scrabble letters.
> You need some criteria to find the topleft of the grid and the
> size of one letter: color/transparency/a marker(fixed image part)...
> You could also use pattern recognition for that.
>
> Then it's the easy part to get all possible letters by computing the
> grid and crop (get from imageData) the grid elements by script.
> Then doing the OCR for each single char.
>
> If you need that for a standalone, then 'tesseract' with its huge
> language packs is probably not appropriate and 'ocrad' could be
> good enough for that.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>

-- 
Phil Davis
503-307-4363




From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 14:14:43 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 19:14:43 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
Message-ID: <74B315E3-DC60-4186-94DC-04A05EB4C0D3@hyperhh.de>

Did you check the encoding of test.html
with BBEdit (should be Unicode (UTF-8))?





From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 14:44:05 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 19:44:05 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
In-Reply-To: <74B315E3-DC60-4186-94DC-04A05EB4C0D3@hyperhh.de>
References: <74B315E3-DC60-4186-94DC-04A05EB4C0D3@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <D1A5666C-B670-4E26-BA15-BDECA5638357@major-k.de>

Hallo Hermann,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 19:14 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Did you check the encoding of test.html
> with BBEdit (should be Unicode (UTF-8))?

yes, BBEdit shows "Unicode (UTF-8)" in the bottom bar.
That is what's puzzling me...


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct 29 14:59:28 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 11:59:28 -0700
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <CAG1h1VDkVdThUojHNTh-618C_vTg-tFLAdNNoM_MBP-m1548Xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VDkVdThUojHNTh-618C_vTg-tFLAdNNoM_MBP-m1548Xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ddeb738a-13e0-2a12-c39f-ab51fc1bd457@fourthworld.com>

Richmond wrote:

 > The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
 >
 > https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
 >
 > Is there any chance of it being updated?

I hope not.

If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.


Lagi wrote:
 > The silence is deafening. :-(

^ and that's why.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems



From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 15:02:01 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:02:01 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
Message-ID: <6B0B3C34-02B7-4FAA-9152-4C1E0D500286@hyperhh.de>

Just saw it now, overlooked that first:

You script
put textencode(tTExt,"UTF8") into url ("file": ...)

This should read
put textDecode(tTExt,"UTF8") into url ("file": ...)

=====

But why using files?
If you don't want to type directly in the browser widget
you can make it "mirroring" a text field.

Example for a primitve HTML editor:

1. Write into fld "HTML"
<html><head><meta charset="utf-8"></head>
<body>[[ht]]</body></html>
(You can now hide fld "HTML").

2. Then make a field "Tippse" and script it:

on textchanged
  put the htmltext of me into ht
  replace "</p>" with "<br>" in ht
  replace "<p>" with empty in ht
  set htmltext of widget "browser" to merge(fld "HTML")
end textchanged

on enterInField
  textchanged
end enterInField

Then you can do what your textfield allows
set textfont (bears some problems), textsize, styles etc.
and the widget will display it (well, approximately...)

[Another variant is to write directly into the DOM structure
of the current HTMLtext.]



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 29 15:09:38 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:09:38 +0200
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <ddeb738a-13e0-2a12-c39f-ab51fc1bd457@fourthworld.com>
References: <CAG1h1VDkVdThUojHNTh-618C_vTg-tFLAdNNoM_MBP-m1548Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ddeb738a-13e0-2a12-c39f-ab51fc1bd457@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <eeb5a54a-7b72-9b66-eb47-c2bf5f2d4d3f@gmail.com>

Why would you ditch it?

On 29.10.19 20:59, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Richmond wrote:
>
> > The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
> >
> > https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
> >
> > Is there any chance of it being updated?
>
> I hope not.
>
> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>
>
> Lagi wrote:
> > The silence is deafening. :-(
>
> ^ and that's why.
>




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct 29 15:14:32 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 12:14:32 -0700
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <eeb5a54a-7b72-9b66-eb47-c2bf5f2d4d3f@gmail.com>
References: <eeb5a54a-7b72-9b66-eb47-c2bf5f2d4d3f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <601510cd-3daf-e928-799d-fb3d989b7fd7@fourthworld.com>

What purpose does it serve?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin


Richmond wrote:
 >
 > Why would you ditch it?
 >
 > On 29.10.19 20:59, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >> Richmond wrote:
 >>
 >> > The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
 >> >
 >> > https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
 >> >
 >> > Is there any chance of it being updated?
 >>
 >> I hope not.
 >>
 >> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
 >>
 >>
 >> Lagi wrote:
 >> > The silence is deafening. :-(
 >>
 >> ^ and that's why.
 >




From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 15:19:19 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:19:19 +0100
Subject: The Roadmap
Message-ID: <70246CB1-EE0A-4865-A886-FCEABD535278@hyperhh.de>

I also think all of them are still valuable targets.

Of course one could say "I know features/repairs that
should be made before that" and advertise for them.



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 29 15:21:09 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:21:09 +0200
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <601510cd-3daf-e928-799d-fb3d989b7fd7@fourthworld.com>
References: <eeb5a54a-7b72-9b66-eb47-c2bf5f2d4d3f@gmail.com>
 <601510cd-3daf-e928-799d-fb3d989b7fd7@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <011c5923-8f14-2243-e923-712431a73f47@gmail.com>

Well, even if nothing else, it gives an impression that the folk at 
LiveCode central have some sort
of GANTT chart with deliverables and dependencies, and what can be 
reasonably expected in the near future.

On 29.10.19 21:14, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> What purpose does it serve?
>




From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 29 15:22:42 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:22:42 +0200
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <70246CB1-EE0A-4865-A886-FCEABD535278@hyperhh.de>
References: <70246CB1-EE0A-4865-A886-FCEABD535278@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <64a184d5-3703-c317-8bec-aff29ef50cc4@gmail.com>

Of course if certain long-term stuff from the Kickstarters don't appear 
on the
Roadmap it is easier to hold LC to account than if the Roadmap were to 
disappear completely.

On 29.10.19 21:19, hh via use-livecode wrote:
> I also think all of them are still valuable targets.
>
> Of course one could say "I know features/repairs that
> should be made before that" and advertise for them.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 15:38:11 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:38:11 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
In-Reply-To: <6B0B3C34-02B7-4FAA-9152-4C1E0D500286@hyperhh.de>
References: <6B0B3C34-02B7-4FAA-9152-4C1E0D500286@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <2B41BD62-7487-4AA7-8160-486FF726AB12@major-k.de>

Hallo Hermann,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 20:02 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Just saw it now, overlooked that first:
> 
> You script
> put textencode(tTExt,"UTF8") into url ("file": ...)
> 
> This should read
> put textDecode(tTExt,"UTF8") into url ("file": ...)

mhhh, when I have this in fld 1:
########################################
<html><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<title>-</title>
</head>
<body>
<p>?????????</p>
</body></html>
###########################################

And do
...
put textDecode(tTExt,"UTF8") into url ("file": ...)
...

The resulting file looks like:
########################################
<html><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<title>-</title>
</head>
<body>
<p></p>
</body></html>
###########################################
All umlauts are gone!?

With:
...
put textencode(tText,"UTF8") into url ("file": ...)
...
It looks fine in Safari and a browser widget!?

> But why using files?

Das geht Dich gar nichts an! :-D

Joke aside, the file gets saved in my Dropbox and I share it
with another user of LC!

> If you don't want to type directly in the browser widget
> you can make it "mirroring" a text field.
> 
> Example for a primitve HTML editor:
> 
> 1. Write into fld "HTML"
> <html><head><meta charset="utf-8"></head>
> <body>[[ht]]</body></html>
> (You can now hide fld "HTML").
> 
> 2. Then make a field "Tippse" and script it:
> 
> on textchanged
>  put the htmltext of me into ht
>  replace "</p>" with "<br>" in ht
>  replace "<p>" with empty in ht
>  set htmltext of widget "browser" to merge(fld "HTML")
> end textchanged
> 
> on enterInField
>  textchanged
> end enterInField
> 
> Then you can do what your textfield allows
> set textfont (bears some problems), textsize, styles etc.
> and the widget will display it (well, approximately...)
> 
> [Another variant is to write directly into the DOM structure
> of the current HTMLtext.]

Thanks, stored for possible future use. :-)


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Tue Oct 29 16:01:07 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:01:07 -0700
Subject: in case you need another reason to love LiveCode...
Message-ID: <690c0ef6-4b68-f3de-bb40-d15d0f0448ba@sonic.net>

How hard can text editing be?

https://lord.io/blog/2019/text-editing-hates-you-too/

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 16:12:19 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:12:19 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
In-Reply-To: <D1A5666C-B670-4E26-BA15-BDECA5638357@major-k.de>
References: <74B315E3-DC60-4186-94DC-04A05EB4C0D3@hyperhh.de>
 <D1A5666C-B670-4E26-BA15-BDECA5638357@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <7A6BABC5-62D0-4DB7-ACE9-ADC07243244A@major-k.de>

Hi all,

I don't really understand this, but this finally does the job:
...
put "</body></html>" after tText
## NO encoding before setting the htmltext!?
set the htmltext of widget "source" to tText

put textencode(tText,"UTF-8") into tNewText
put tNewText into url("file:" & Kommunikations_ordner() & "kommunikation.html")
...
Now loading that file again into the widget looks as exspected, pheeeewwww! :-)

> Am 29.10.2019 um 19:44 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hallo Hermann,
> 
>> Am 29.10.2019 um 19:14 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Did you check the encoding of test.html
>> with BBEdit (should be Unicode (UTF-8))?
> yes, BBEdit shows "Unicode (UTF-8)" in the bottom bar.
> That is what's puzzling me...

Best and thanks to all

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 16:28:33 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:28:33 +0100
Subject: scroll browser widget via script?
Message-ID: <4DED3689-1B2D-46F3-BCA9-564AE6AE51F4@major-k.de>

Hi all,

can we (v)scroll a browser widget via scipt?
Did not find a clue/property in the dictionary.


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 17:06:06 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:06:06 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
Message-ID: <3386B09D-B3AE-45D5-B6F8-6A634AB07C49@hyperhh.de>

Hi Klaus,

this is dangerous because the code could have "mixed" encodings
if you (or your partner) edits the code in texteditors with
different encoding settings.

I looked again carefully into your first post.
You use the htmltext of the widget, so your original code is correct.
It works here as you would like.

So delete the file test.html and write it new by LC using 
put textencode(the htmltext of widget "browser","UTF8") \
  into url("file:" & specialfolderpath("desktop") & "/test.html")
  
Possibly there was some problem when you self-created the file.
I set the default encoding in BBEdit to UTF-8.

Also LiveCode uses a BOM. If there is no UTF-8 BOM it uses
Mac OS Roman. That is what you see when you type into msg
put textEncode(the htmltext of widget "Browser", "UTF-8").

If you use later on text from the DOM structure of your HTML,
have to decode before using in LC/writing to a file.
handlers.

I use this always together with base64Encoding (because javascript
handlers need ONE line of code in quotes).



From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 17:21:45 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:21:45 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
In-Reply-To: <3386B09D-B3AE-45D5-B6F8-6A634AB07C49@hyperhh.de>
References: <3386B09D-B3AE-45D5-B6F8-6A634AB07C49@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <E525CAC0-F274-4A51-A250-E017A74A6EE2@major-k.de>

Hello Hermann,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 22:06 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Hi Klaus,
> 
> this is dangerous because the code could have "mixed" encodings
> if you (or your partner) edits the code in texteditors with
> different encoding settings.

we both use the same stack, so no text editor involved.

> I looked again carefully into your first post.
> You use the htmltext of the widget, so your original code is correct.
> It works here as you would like.
> 
> So delete the file test.html and write it new by LC using 
> put textencode(the htmltext of widget "browser","UTF8") \
>  into url("file:" & specialfolderpath("desktop") & "/test.html")
> 
> Possibly there was some problem when you self-created the file.
> I set the default encoding in BBEdit to UTF-8.

I used BBEdit with encoding set to UTF-8 for the "skeletal structure"
of the HTML file, HEADER and a little inline CSS.

> Also LiveCode uses a BOM. If there is no UTF-8 BOM it uses
> Mac OS Roman. That is what you see when you type into msg
> put textEncode(the htmltext of widget "Browser", "UTF-8").

Which shows exactly the same (with umlauts and stuff) as simply:
put the htmltext of widget "Browser"

> If you use later on text from the DOM structure of your HTML,
> have to decode before using in LC/writing to a file.
> handlers.
> I use this always together with base64Encoding (because javascript
> handlers need ONE line of code in quotes).

Well you have a much deeper knowledge about all this stuff than I will ever have
and I hardly understand what you are trying to tell me with these last two sentences. :-D

Thanks for you help, very appreciated!


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 17:45:55 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:45:55 +0100
Subject: scroll browser widget via script?
Message-ID: <5C300B00-3EC2-4EC1-BB3A-A5A9B42EF4DB@hyperhh.de>

> Klaus M. wrote:
> can we (v)scroll a browser widget via script?

Of course by setting anchors and jumping via URL to there.
But you don't mean that, so:

No.
But we have a forum. From post "Scroll my widget (='.'=)"
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=156701#p156701

-- scrolls "to"  horizontally 0 and vertically 400 pixels
do "window.scrollTo(0,400);" in  widget "browser"
-- scrolls "by" (additive) horizontally 10 and vertically 40 pixels
do "window.scrollBy(10,40);" in widget "browser"

And your next questions:

Widget usage example #5: Getting MouseEvents
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=154496#p154496

Widget usage example #5b: Getting MouseEvents (part2).
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=174936#p174936



From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 17:57:45 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:57:45 +0100
Subject: scroll browser widget via script?
In-Reply-To: <5C300B00-3EC2-4EC1-BB3A-A5A9B42EF4DB@hyperhh.de>
References: <5C300B00-3EC2-4EC1-BB3A-A5A9B42EF4DB@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <738D7CFA-56D1-44AE-A818-96C527CA1877@major-k.de>

Hello Hermann,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 22:45 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>> Klaus M. wrote:
>> can we (v)scroll a browser widget via script?
> 
> Of course by setting anchors and jumping via URL to there.
> But you don't mean that, so:
> No.

OK, thanks.

> But we have a forum. From post "Scroll my widget (='.'=)"
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=156701#p156701
> -- scrolls "to"  horizontally 0 and vertically 400 pixels
> do "window.scrollTo(0,400);" in  widget "browser"

That is great, I can even use an insanely high number to scroll to the bottom
without knowing the exact "formattedheigt" of the widget, just like with LC fields.

> -- scrolls "by" (additive) horizontally 10 and vertically 40 pixels
> do "window.scrollBy(10,40);" in widget "browser"
> 
> And your next questions:
> Widget usage example #5: Getting MouseEvents
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=154496#p154496
> 
> Widget usage example #5b: Getting MouseEvents (part2).
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=174936#p174936

I really did not want to know this (in the moment). :-)

Thanks a lot!


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From hh at hyperhh.de  Tue Oct 29 18:01:37 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:01:37 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
Message-ID: <6377709F-30B2-45EF-900F-5BCBEB1DEAAD@hyperhh.de>

>> Also LiveCode uses a BOM. If there is no UTF-8 BOM it uses 
>> Mac OS Roman. That is what you see when you type into msg 
>> put textEncode(the htmltext of widget "Browser", "UTF-8"). 
> 
> Which shows exactly the same (with umlauts and stuff) as simply:
> put the htmltext of widget "Browser" 

I don't mean the htmltext of the widget that has the file as url.

Set the htmltext of the widget by script to

<html><head><meta charset="utf-8"></head><body><p>
????
</p></body></html>

Then do
put textencode(the htmltext of widget browser,"UTF-8")

I get then here the MacOS Roman encoding:

<html><head><meta charset="utf-8"></head><body><p>
????
</p></body></html>

That describes (somehow) the problem you had and others will have.


From klaus at major-k.de  Tue Oct 29 18:04:52 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:04:52 +0100
Subject: encoding woes!?
In-Reply-To: <6377709F-30B2-45EF-900F-5BCBEB1DEAAD@hyperhh.de>
References: <6377709F-30B2-45EF-900F-5BCBEB1DEAAD@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <1D19CFFA-2BB8-433E-B665-6689C1D66769@major-k.de>

Hello Hermann,

> Am 29.10.2019 um 23:01 schrieb hh via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>>> Also LiveCode uses a BOM. If there is no UTF-8 BOM it uses 
>>> Mac OS Roman. That is what you see when you type into msg 
>>> put textEncode(the htmltext of widget "Browser", "UTF-8"). 
>> 
>> Which shows exactly the same (with umlauts and stuff) as simply:
>> put the htmltext of widget "Browser" 
> I don't mean the htmltext of the widget that has the file as url.
> Set the htmltext of the widget by script to
> <html><head><meta charset="utf-8"></head><body><p>
> ????
> </p></body></html>
> Then do
> put textencode(the htmltext of widget browser,"UTF-8")
> I get then here the MacOS Roman encoding:
> <html><head><meta charset="utf-8"></head><body><p>
> ????
> </p></body></html>
> 
> That describes (somehow) the problem you had and others will have.

thank you, will try to digest this. :-)

At least I got the stack working as I need it!


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct 29 18:24:29 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 15:24:29 -0700
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <64a184d5-3703-c317-8bec-aff29ef50cc4@gmail.com>
References: <64a184d5-3703-c317-8bec-aff29ef50cc4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1b0266b-af7c-152d-2e6e-362e69a48de1@fourthworld.com>

Richmond wrote:

 > Of course if certain long-term stuff from the Kickstarters don't
 > appear on the Roadmap it is easier to hold LC to account than if
 > the Roadmap were to disappear completely.

Which returns us to the question I posted an hour ago about the Roadmap:

    What purpose does it serve?

I can imagine all sorts of reasons one might find a roadmap useful. 
Some may find it useful for planning features down the road for one's 
own products (provided, of course, a solid understanding of what a 
roadmap is, and isn't, is in place); others may find it useful for 
anticipating areas of future contributions to the project (new widget 
opportunities, etc.); others may just find it interesting to see how the 
company envisions growth opportunities as reflected in feature sets.

There are all sorts of really good reasons people might want a roadmap.

And then there's yours:

   "...to hold LC to account..."

If that's your interest, I see no benefit in keeping the Roadmap.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Tue Oct 29 23:59:26 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:59:26 -0700
Subject: in case you need another reason to love LiveCode...
In-Reply-To: <690c0ef6-4b68-f3de-bb40-d15d0f0448ba@sonic.net>
References: <690c0ef6-4b68-f3de-bb40-d15d0f0448ba@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <e077cda3-4fa4-21aa-9302-877e07ad8e17@fourthworld.com>

Mark Wieder wrote:

 > How hard can text editing be?
 >
 > https://lord.io/blog/2019/text-editing-hates-you-too/

Thank you, Mark. Bookmarked.

LiveCode makes it so easy to take things like text editing for granted.

"Just drop a field onto a card and start typing - what could be so hard?"

And then we read what it takes to make that happen...

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From richmondmathewson at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 05:09:31 2019
From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:09:31 +0200
Subject: The Roadmap
Message-ID: <11785e9b-018b-9627-c93f-8728de954b9b@gmail.com>

Sorry about starting this as a new thread: email client misbehaving.

Richard Gaskin wrote:

"Richmond wrote:
 > Of course if certain long-term stuff from the Kickstarters don't
 > appear on the Roadmap it is easier to hold LC to account than if
 > the Roadmap were to disappear completely.

Which returns us to the question I posted an hour ago about the Roadmap: 
What purpose does it serve? I can imagine all sorts of reasons one might 
find a roadmap useful. Some may find it useful for planning features 
down the road for one's own products (provided, of course, a solid 
understanding of what a roadmap is, and isn't, is in place); others may 
find it useful for anticipating areas of future contributions to the 
project (new widget opportunities, etc.); others may just find it 
interesting to see how the company envisions growth opportunities as 
reflected in feature sets. There are all sorts of really good reasons 
people might want a roadmap. And then there's yours: "...to hold LC to 
account..." If that's your interest, I see no benefit in keeping the 
Roadmap."

----

Why should not people who run Kickstarter things not be held to account 
for their promises?

I had a Kickstarter a while ago to raise money for my Devawriter and I 
honoured all my promises.

One of the reasons I was able to honour all my promises was because I 
was very, very careful about what I promised.

Now folk who invest money usually do it expecting some sort of return 
(even if it is only a 'Thank you' from
the homeless person who asks you for a few coins), and ducking one's 
commitments and responsibilities . . .

Are you advocating what it looks like?


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 30 10:34:26 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:34:26 +0000
Subject: in case you need another reason to love LiveCode...
In-Reply-To: <e077cda3-4fa4-21aa-9302-877e07ad8e17@fourthworld.com>
References: <690c0ef6-4b68-f3de-bb40-d15d0f0448ba@sonic.net>
 <e077cda3-4fa4-21aa-9302-877e07ad8e17@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <3BF70851-AF74-4E55-A185-DD6F74F5F947@iotecdigital.com>

This is probably why it took so long for RunRev to incorporate localization and unicode. What a mess! 

Bob S


> On Oct 29, 2019, at 20:59 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Mark Wieder wrote:
> 
> > How hard can text editing be?
> >
> > https://lord.io/blog/2019/text-editing-hates-you-too/
> 
> Thank you, Mark. Bookmarked.
> 
> LiveCode makes it so easy to take things like text editing for granted.
> 
> "Just drop a field onto a card and start typing - what could be so hard?"
> 
> And then we read what it takes to make that happen...
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web




From bdrunrev at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 12:17:35 2019
From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:17:35 +0000
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <ddeb738a-13e0-2a12-c39f-ab51fc1bd457@fourthworld.com>
References: <CAG1h1VDkVdThUojHNTh-618C_vTg-tFLAdNNoM_MBP-m1548Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ddeb738a-13e0-2a12-c39f-ab51fc1bd457@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CA+O+R-G04yDjtFSfMdUPueVAtsuej=3SaxXOLU4yF_LY1Mz+UA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>

 Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
a decade ago.

I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).

Notes used to exist in native clients for OS/2, Windows, MacOS.  IBM
jettisoned the native clients and moved to running the entire thing inside
the JVM.  It took IBM about 15 years to move from Notes 7 to Notes 10.
When I recently downloaded Notes 10 to do some programming on thousands of
emails (the very thing where Notes should shine) the client crashed
repeatedly on trying to import the emails.  Bear in mind that Notes even
has a menu action to import emails from a folder, so importing emails to
process the text is not even something that requires any programming, it's
that basic to the product.  Having moved from programming in C with all the
possible problems with pointers and memory allocation, Notes was moved to a
language with garbage collection and memory management and still the client
crashes doing basic things it could do 15 years ago.

By comparison in the last 10 to 15 years Livecode has added app delivery
for iOS, Android, Linux, Windows64 and HTML5 to Windows32 and OSX.  That's
more than IBM ever managed to do and a movement in the opposite direction
to that taken by IBM.  And as well as doing this Livecode re-architected
the engine.   IBM's major new feature over the last decade (XPages) looks
like it is now almost certainly going to be thrown away.  By moving to the
JVM for the development environment IBM was banking on delivering most
Notes apps as web apps.

Obviously the Notes servers do a whole range of things that Livecode
doesn't do.  But these server-side technologies were mostly in the Notes
product 15 years ago. Going back 15 years ago and Livecode was at v2.5.
Remember back then?  The clipboarddata was a new thing.  We didn't have a
built-in web browser, nor multi-dimensional arrays, nor unicode, nor the
datagrid, nor behaviors, nor widgets, nor xslt,  nor the enhanced liburl.
That's just off the top of my head.

IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
themselves to their own limited roadmap.  Livecode has successfully moved
forward with a cross-platform solution when IBM couldn't do so.  And
without having $billions to play with.  They shouldn't attempt to hold to a
roadmap when the elephant in the room can't do it.  And IBM never allowed
businesses to use Notes for free nor did they open the source code.
Livecode did that and has a free edition which contains probably 99% of the
functionality of the most expensive license.

I think many of us lose sight of this small company's achievements.

Regards, Bernard


From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Wed Oct 30 12:22:30 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:22:30 -0700
Subject: The Overflow
Message-ID: <7ba2f089-4718-03ed-123e-d8f193691dba@sonic.net>

If you're not already getting Stack Overflow's email newsletter 
(published every two weeks) I want to recommend it highly. I just got 
issue #3 in the mail today and it's got some fascinating articles in it. 
A couple from the current issue:

The Lines of Code That Changed Everything
https://slate.com/technology/2019/10/consequential-computer-code-software-history.html

My Most Embarrassing Mistakes as a Programmer (so far)
https://stackoverflow.blog/2019/10/29/my-most-embarrassing-mistakes-as-a-programmer-so-far/

I've gotta quote from that one:

"It?s painful for most software developers to acknowledge this, because 
they love code so much, but the best code is no code at all. Every new 
line of code you willingly bring into the world is code that has to be 
debugged, code that has to be read and understood, code that has to be 
supported. Every time you write new code, you should do so reluctantly, 
under duress, because you completely exhausted all your other options. 
Code is only our enemy because there are so many of us programmers 
writing so damn much of it."

Yes, you need sign up for a free Stack Overflow account for this
https://stackoverflow.com/users/signup

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From ahsoftware at sonic.net  Wed Oct 30 12:33:37 2019
From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:33:37 -0700
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <CA+O+R-G04yDjtFSfMdUPueVAtsuej=3SaxXOLU4yF_LY1Mz+UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VDkVdThUojHNTh-618C_vTg-tFLAdNNoM_MBP-m1548Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ddeb738a-13e0-2a12-c39f-ab51fc1bd457@fourthworld.com>
 <CA+O+R-G04yDjtFSfMdUPueVAtsuej=3SaxXOLU4yF_LY1Mz+UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2b06d40-a354-09bc-e386-6b9014f0ca7e@sonic.net>

On 10/30/19 9:17 AM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:

> IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
> themselves to their own limited roadmap.

...and now IBM has <sigh> bought RedHat.

-- 
  Mark Wieder
  ahsoftware at gmail.com



From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 30 12:45:20 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:45:20 +0000
Subject: The Overflow
In-Reply-To: <7ba2f089-4718-03ed-123e-d8f193691dba@sonic.net>
References: <7ba2f089-4718-03ed-123e-d8f193691dba@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <797F2E86-FEB2-4F8E-A667-4881EFFD39AB@iotecdigital.com>

Done! 

Bob S


> On Oct 30, 2019, at 09:22 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> If you're not already getting Stack Overflow's email newsletter (published every two weeks) I want to recommend it highly. I just got issue #3 in the mail today and it's got some fascinating articles in it. A couple from the current issue:
> 
> The Lines of Code That Changed Everything
> https://slate.com/technology/2019/10/consequential-computer-code-software-history.html
> 
> My Most Embarrassing Mistakes as a Programmer (so far)
> https://stackoverflow.blog/2019/10/29/my-most-embarrassing-mistakes-as-a-programmer-so-far/
> 
> I've gotta quote from that one:
> 
> "It?s painful for most software developers to acknowledge this, because they love code so much, but the best code is no code at all. Every new line of code you willingly bring into the world is code that has to be debugged, code that has to be read and understood, code that has to be supported. Every time you write new code, you should do so reluctantly, under duress, because you completely exhausted all your other options. Code is only our enemy because there are so many of us programmers writing so damn much of it."
> 
> Yes, you need sign up for a free Stack Overflow account for this
> https://stackoverflow.com/users/signup
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftware at gmail.com


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 30 12:55:24 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:55:24 +0000
Subject: The Overflow
In-Reply-To: <7ba2f089-4718-03ed-123e-d8f193691dba@sonic.net>
References: <7ba2f089-4718-03ed-123e-d8f193691dba@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <C54B9E7C-9F35-4EB7-A2F6-D9A034DBD4F1@iotecdigital.com>

Pure heresy! I CAN write perfect code first time every time! I just have to try harder!! ;-)

Bob S


> On Oct 30, 2019, at 09:22 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> My Most Embarrassing Mistakes as a Programmer (so far)
> https://stackoverflow.blog/2019/10/29/my-most-embarrassing-mistakes-as-a-programmer-so-far/




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Wed Oct 30 12:57:10 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:57:10 +0000
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <CA+O+R-G04yDjtFSfMdUPueVAtsuej=3SaxXOLU4yF_LY1Mz+UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VDkVdThUojHNTh-618C_vTg-tFLAdNNoM_MBP-m1548Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ddeb738a-13e0-2a12-c39f-ab51fc1bd457@fourthworld.com>
 <CA+O+R-G04yDjtFSfMdUPueVAtsuej=3SaxXOLU4yF_LY1Mz+UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <823BE3C2-99BF-4003-9A0B-C58E818D968B@iotecdigital.com>

+1

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 09:17 , Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>> 
> 
> Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
> the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
> a decade ago.
> 
> I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
> used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
> sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
> last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
> development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
> an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
> was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).
<snip>


From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Wed Oct 30 15:06:10 2019
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:06:10 +0100
Subject: The Roadmap
In-Reply-To: <CA+O+R-G04yDjtFSfMdUPueVAtsuej=3SaxXOLU4yF_LY1Mz+UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG1h1VDkVdThUojHNTh-618C_vTg-tFLAdNNoM_MBP-m1548Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ddeb738a-13e0-2a12-c39f-ab51fc1bd457@fourthworld.com>
 <CA+O+R-G04yDjtFSfMdUPueVAtsuej=3SaxXOLU4yF_LY1Mz+UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA7AB129-BC7E-4953-8DD0-8E919A4FB1AE@m-r-d.de>

Thanks Bernard.

Exactly what I think. Only I could not express it that way in English.

Matthias

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

> Am 30.10.2019 um 17:17 schrieb Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>> 
> 
> Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
> the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
> a decade ago.
> 
> I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
> used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
> sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
> last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
> development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
> an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
> was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).
> 
> Notes used to exist in native clients for OS/2, Windows, MacOS.  IBM
> jettisoned the native clients and moved to running the entire thing inside
> the JVM.  It took IBM about 15 years to move from Notes 7 to Notes 10.
> When I recently downloaded Notes 10 to do some programming on thousands of
> emails (the very thing where Notes should shine) the client crashed
> repeatedly on trying to import the emails.  Bear in mind that Notes even
> has a menu action to import emails from a folder, so importing emails to
> process the text is not even something that requires any programming, it's
> that basic to the product.  Having moved from programming in C with all the
> possible problems with pointers and memory allocation, Notes was moved to a
> language with garbage collection and memory management and still the client
> crashes doing basic things it could do 15 years ago.
> 
> By comparison in the last 10 to 15 years Livecode has added app delivery
> for iOS, Android, Linux, Windows64 and HTML5 to Windows32 and OSX.  That's
> more than IBM ever managed to do and a movement in the opposite direction
> to that taken by IBM.  And as well as doing this Livecode re-architected
> the engine.   IBM's major new feature over the last decade (XPages) looks
> like it is now almost certainly going to be thrown away.  By moving to the
> JVM for the development environment IBM was banking on delivering most
> Notes apps as web apps.
> 
> Obviously the Notes servers do a whole range of things that Livecode
> doesn't do.  But these server-side technologies were mostly in the Notes
> product 15 years ago. Going back 15 years ago and Livecode was at v2.5.
> Remember back then?  The clipboarddata was a new thing.  We didn't have a
> built-in web browser, nor multi-dimensional arrays, nor unicode, nor the
> datagrid, nor behaviors, nor widgets, nor xslt,  nor the enhanced liburl.
> That's just off the top of my head.
> 
> IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
> themselves to their own limited roadmap.  Livecode has successfully moved
> forward with a cross-platform solution when IBM couldn't do so.  And
> without having $billions to play with.  They shouldn't attempt to hold to a
> roadmap when the elephant in the room can't do it.  And IBM never allowed
> businesses to use Notes for free nor did they open the source code.
> Livecode did that and has a free edition which contains probably 99% of the
> functionality of the most expensive license.
> 
> I think many of us lose sight of this small company's achievements.
> 
> Regards, Bernard
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode <http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>



From klaus at major-k.de  Wed Oct 30 16:13:42 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:13:42 +0100
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
Message-ID: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>

Hi all,

we know that "the templatexxxxxx" is a very helpful thingie.

But I was really surprised that we can even EXPORT something
from the templateimage until I tried this:
-------------------------------------------------
on mouseUp

  ## My good ol' banana, older users of MC might remember that one :-D
  set the filename of the templateimage to "/Users/klaus2/Desktop/BANANA.jpg"

  ## This was a know (to me) feature
  put the formattedwidth of the templateimage into tFW
  put the formattedheight of the templateimage into tFH
  ## Now you can apply some "rule of three" to scale the image while preserving its ratio
  ## I'll leave that up to you... :-)

  ## I cheated a bit:
  set the width of the templateimage to 181
  set the height of the templateimage to 252

  ## But this one really suprised me:
  export the templateimage to file (specialfolderpath("desktop") & "/eltesto.jpg") as JPEG
  reset the templateimage
end mouseUp
-----------------------------------------------------
No image object involved, how cool is that?! :-)


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From livecode at pink.guru  Wed Oct 30 16:18:21 2019
From: livecode at pink.guru (Greg (Pink) Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:18:21 -0400
Subject: Need trig & LCB help
Message-ID: <CAEKxixm+9Wh8q5Mjy+pkKXSuAUB-KYzz6Cbh9bjKS2M8tdvMTA@mail.gmail.com>

This works much better than what I was trying.

THANKS!
---------------------------------------------
Replace the last part of your handler with the following.

variable tBNum as Number
variable tBCenters as List

put tBigRad - tLilRad into tInnerRad
put the number of elements in mData into tBNum
put regularPoints([tBNum,tInnerRad,tBigX,tBigY]) into tBCenters
repeat with tButtonNumber from 1 up to tBNum
   fill circle path centered at tBCenters[tButtonNumber] \
        with radius tLilRad on this canvas
end repeat

-- returns list of N regular (=evenly spaced) circle points
-- starting at high noon, turning clockwise
-- pL = [numOfPoints,radius,centerX,centerY]
handler regularPoints (in pL as List) returns List
  variable tI as Number
  variable tPi as Number
  variable tPts as List
  put 2*pi/pL[1] into tPi
  put [] into tPts
  repeat with tI from 0 up to pL[1]-1
    push point \
    [pL[3]+pL[2]*sin(tI*tPi), pL[4]-pL[2]*cos(tI*tPi)] onto tPts
  end repeat
  return tPts
end polyPoints

[Untested, right out of my head, should work.]


From dochawk at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 17:28:39 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:28:39 -0700
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
Message-ID: <7BFC7DCD-AB5B-4D71-83DE-A2D418E34AE9@gmail.com>


I?ve tried every combination of cr, lf, and crlf, but whenever I assemble into a file, I get something that neither the OSX terminal or vim recognizes as having lf in it

I build a set of commands in mrgCmds, appending cr as I go, but I get a bunch of ^M in the otherwise uninterrupted stream with vi and less, while cat shows me the last line (presumably, as it keeps writing it over.

The code in question is

put "outFil=open(theOutPdf, 'wb')" & cr after mrgCmds

put "outFil.write(theOutPdf)" & cr after mrgCmds

put "quit" & cr after mrgCmds

replace cr with crlf in mrgCmds

open file fldr & "/theCmds.py" for write

write mrgCmds to file fldr & "/theCmds.py"

close file fldr & "/theCmds.py"


please, someone help, before the termcap flashbacks tern me into a quivering blob of fear!
? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From hh at hyperhh.de  Wed Oct 30 17:34:45 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:34:45 +0100
Subject: Need trig & LCB help
Message-ID: <916E020D-DF98-416F-B0C7-05EA9425F9E6@hyperhh.de>

Greg, I've been away from LCB for a while. When reading the last post
again I remembered an improvement that you could try to use:

The current version computes the pathes with every redraw (onPaint).
This is far too often. We could compute the pathes once (in onCreate)
and then update ONLY when needed (= when one of its params changes).
This will give your widget a lot of time for other things and makes
the OnPaint code shorter.

variable mBCircles as List
variable mBigRad as Number
variable mLilRad as Number
variable mInnerRad as Number
variable mBigX as Number
variable mBigY as Number
variable mBNum as Number

[1] in OnCreate write:
put the number of elements in mData into mBNum
put my width/2 into mBigX
put my height/2 into mBigY
put mBigRad-mLilRad into mInnerRad
updateCirclePaths([mBNum,mInnerRad,mLilRad,mBigX,mBigY])

[2] in OnPaint write:
repeat with tButtonNumber from 1 up to mBNum
   fill mBCircles[tButtonNumber] on this canvas
end repeat

[3] This does the job minimal often:
Whenever you change one of its params write also

updateCirclePaths([mBNum,mInnerRad,mLilRad,mBigX,mBigY])

[4] This handler computes already the small circle paths:

-- sets the list mBCircles of regularly placed circle paths,
-- turns clockwise from high noon, is centered at point [cX,cY]
-- pL = [numOfCircles,bigRadius,smallRadius,cX,cY]
handler updateCirclePaths (in pL as List) returns nothing
   variable tI as Number
   variable tPi as Number
   variable tPaths as List
   put 2*pi/pL[1] into tPi
   put [] into tPts
   repeat with tI from 0 up to pL[1]-1
      push circle path centered at point \
        [pL[4]+pL[2]*sin(tI*tPi), pL[5]-pL[2]*cos(tI*tPi)] \
          with radius pL[3] onto tPaths
  end repeat
  put tPaths into mBCircles
end handler

Hope you'll show us your shining new widget ...



From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de  Wed Oct 30 17:42:24 2019
From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:42:24 +0100
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <7BFC7DCD-AB5B-4D71-83DE-A2D418E34AE9@gmail.com>
References: <7BFC7DCD-AB5B-4D71-83DE-A2D418E34AE9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <92AADC62-4CE4-4E9E-B969-3090BCC927C7@m-r-d.de>

I am not sure, if this will help with your task, but if i want to  avoid that the os replaces the line breaks with it?s default i am writing a binary file instead of a text file.  So in your case you would open the file for "binary write".

Regards,
Matthias

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

> Am 30.10.2019 um 22:28 schrieb Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> 
> I?ve tried every combination of cr, lf, and crlf, but whenever I assemble into a file, I get something that neither the OSX terminal or vim recognizes as having lf in it
> 
> I build a set of commands in mrgCmds, appending cr as I go, but I get a bunch of ^M in the otherwise uninterrupted stream with vi and less, while cat shows me the last line (presumably, as it keeps writing it over.
> 
> The code in question is
> 
> put "outFil=open(theOutPdf, 'wb')" & cr after mrgCmds
> 
> put "outFil.write(theOutPdf)" & cr after mrgCmds
> 
> put "quit" & cr after mrgCmds
> 
> replace cr with crlf in mrgCmds
> 
> open file fldr & "/theCmds.py" for write
> 
> write mrgCmds to file fldr & "/theCmds.py"
> 
> close file fldr & "/theCmds.py"
> 
> 
> please, someone help, before the termcap flashbacks tern me into a quivering blob of fear!
> ? 
> Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> The Hawkins Law Firm
> 3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
> Suite 232
> Las Vegas, NV  89121
> (702) 508-8462
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com <mailto:use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



From klaus at major-k.de  Wed Oct 30 17:47:27 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:47:27 +0100
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <7BFC7DCD-AB5B-4D71-83DE-A2D418E34AE9@gmail.com>
References: <7BFC7DCD-AB5B-4D71-83DE-A2D418E34AE9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E74540F-97F5-49F2-9132-1C5D6A078C1C@major-k.de>

Hi Richard,

> Am 30.10.2019 um 22:28 schrieb Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> I?ve tried every combination of cr, lf, and crlf, but whenever I assemble into a file, I get something that neither the OSX terminal or vim recognizes as having lf in it
> 
> I build a set of commands in mrgCmds, appending cr as I go, but I get a bunch of ^M in the otherwise uninterrupted stream with vi and less, while cat shows me the last line (presumably, as it keeps writing it over.
> 
> The code in question is
> put "outFil=open(theOutPdf, 'wb')" & cr after mrgCmds
> put "outFil.write(theOutPdf)" & cr after mrgCmds
> put "quit" & cr after mrgCmds
> replace cr with crlf in mrgCmds
> open file fldr & "/theCmds.py" for write
> write mrgCmds to file fldr & "/theCmds.py"
> close file fldr & "/theCmds.py"
> 
> please, someone help, before the termcap flashbacks tern me into a quivering blob of fear!
> ? 
> Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.

I remember that a very, very long time ago I was advised to use numtochar(8)
as a "line delimiter" for macOS shell scripts written to disk.

At least worth a try...


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From dochawk at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 17:55:13 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:55:13 -0700
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <92AADC62-4CE4-4E9E-B969-3090BCC927C7@m-r-d.de>
References: <7BFC7DCD-AB5B-4D71-83DE-A2D418E34AE9@gmail.com>
 <92AADC62-4CE4-4E9E-B969-3090BCC927C7@m-r-d.de>
Message-ID: <740B32A8-4B58-40A1-AEA7-25B2F1E3CDB6@gmail.com>


On Oct 30, 2019, at 2:42 PM, Matthias mentioned

> I am not sure, if this will help with your task, but if i want to  avoid that the os replaces the line breaks with it?s default i am writing a binary file instead of a text file.  So in your case you would open the file for "binary write".


Bingo!   That did it.

klaus kicked

>I remember that a very, very long time ago I was advised to use numtochar(8)
>as a "line delimiter" for macOS shell scripts written to disk.

Isn?t that a backspace?


? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From klaus at major-k.de  Wed Oct 30 17:57:44 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:57:44 +0100
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <740B32A8-4B58-40A1-AEA7-25B2F1E3CDB6@gmail.com>
References: <7BFC7DCD-AB5B-4D71-83DE-A2D418E34AE9@gmail.com>
 <92AADC62-4CE4-4E9E-B969-3090BCC927C7@m-r-d.de>
 <740B32A8-4B58-40A1-AEA7-25B2F1E3CDB6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8AB75E9-553D-4AF5-9DC9-C0C85653B048@major-k.de>

Hi Richard,

> Am 30.10.2019 um 22:55 schrieb Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 2:42 PM, Matthias mentioned
>> I am not sure, if this will help with your task, but if i want to  avoid that the os replaces the line breaks with it?s default i am writing a binary file instead of a text file.  So in your case you would open the file for "binary write".
> Bingo! That did it.
> klaus kicked
>> I remember that a very, very long time ago I was advised to use numtochar(8)
>> as a "line delimiter" for macOS shell scripts written to disk.
> Isn?t that a backspace?

no idea, but it worked for me years ago. :-)

> ? 
> Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.

Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From dochawk at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 17:58:44 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:58:44 -0700
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <A8AB75E9-553D-4AF5-9DC9-C0C85653B048@major-k.de>
References: <7BFC7DCD-AB5B-4D71-83DE-A2D418E34AE9@gmail.com>
 <92AADC62-4CE4-4E9E-B969-3090BCC927C7@m-r-d.de>
 <740B32A8-4B58-40A1-AEA7-25B2F1E3CDB6@gmail.com>
 <A8AB75E9-553D-4AF5-9DC9-C0C85653B048@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <1B92E8E0-3A20-46B0-A36B-4DF245EB5E7C@gmail.com>


On Oct 30, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> no idea, but it worked for me years ago. :-)


which is the ultimate test . . . and, now that you mention it, *far* for the oddest fix . . .
? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From hh at hyperhh.de  Wed Oct 30 18:38:57 2019
From: hh at hyperhh.de (hh)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 23:38:57 +0100
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
Message-ID: <82B85D91-22F7-451F-AABD-2FF2149CCD35@hyperhh.de>

In case your python file becomes a bit more complicated, you
shouldn't use workarounds as using backspace to come to a
binary format, because you then need exact indents (could be
tabs).

Better use (without replacing anything in mrgCmds) Matthias'
answer to use binary write.

Or the usual variant of that
put mrgCmds into url("binfile:" & fldr & "/theCmds.py")



From dochawk at gmail.com  Wed Oct 30 20:20:15 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:20:15 -0700
Subject: "empty" background in printed pdf is actually grey
Message-ID: <F254AFBE-A0F3-408C-BA7B-830D44CFE53D@gmail.com>


I?m within spitting distance on this merging of pdfs, using livecode to generate python code and using the PyPDF2 library.

My last problem is that the pdf generated by livecode creates a great background, whereas it should be transparent.

set the backgroundColor of otCd to empty

print otCd from otTl to otBr into 18,18,576+18,756

gives me a grey background that obscures the form I?m placing my output on top of



? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From brian at milby7.com  Wed Oct 30 22:08:54 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:08:54 -0400
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <82B85D91-22F7-451F-AABD-2FF2149CCD35@hyperhh.de>
References: <82B85D91-22F7-451F-AABD-2FF2149CCD35@hyperhh.de>
Message-ID: <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>

The reason for the difficulty is that internally LC uses LF as the line
ending.  The cr, lf, and return constants all actually map to LF.  When you
write a text file, LC will convert line endings to the native format.  So
for Windows you get CRLF, Linux gets LF, and Mac gets CR.  I take issue
with this because as of OS X the native line ending for the OS is actually
now LF (although most of the stuff built in will handle either LF or CR).
As a result, I always will generate my text files using binary mode,
encoded as UTF8 on the Mac.  I will read everything using file to get the
automatic conversion to LF though.  This does complicate making cross
platform code that generates text files since you have to check the OS and
either handle Windows or Mac differently.

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 6:39 PM hh via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> In case your python file becomes a bit more complicated, you
> shouldn't use workarounds as using backspace to come to a
> binary format, because you then need exact indents (could be
> tabs).
>
> Better use (without replacing anything in mrgCmds) Matthias'
> answer to use binary write.
>
> Or the usual variant of that
> put mrgCmds into url("binfile:" & fldr & "/theCmds.py")
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Wed Oct 30 22:27:28 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:27:28 -0700
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0bb765fd-9836-9184-3e46-6274425a06f2@fourthworld.com>

Brian Milby wrote:

 > The reason for the difficulty is that internally LC uses LF as the
 > line ending.  The cr, lf, and return constants all actually map to LF.
 > When you write a text file, LC will convert line endings to the native
 > format.  So for Windows you get CRLF, Linux gets LF, and Mac gets CR.
 > I take issue with this because as of OS X the native line ending for
 > the OS is actually now LF...

Agreed.

The hard question is: What shall we do about it?

On the one hand, we have millions of lines of code in our community that 
use CR, and a certain percentage of those are dependent on CR having a 
specific value (even if that value is inconsistent with the true ASCII 
value).

On the other hand, we have a constant that suggests it's one thing when 
it's really something else, and at this point that design decision 
benefits no one and confuses many.

Favor backward compatibility, or language learnability/usability?

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From brian at milby7.com  Wed Oct 30 23:26:53 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 23:26:53 -0400
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <0bb765fd-9836-9184-3e46-6274425a06f2@fourthworld.com>
References: <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0bb765fd-9836-9184-3e46-6274425a06f2@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <CA+yhkRY5MavkCEys0gEz_UAOsMuUZPdEzXF-bJ3aGLQj-eB-fQ@mail.gmail.com>

My suggestion is to just bite the bullet and build LC where 'file' exports
using LF on Mac.  The change required is literally a couple of characters
in one file (maybe two files to include the server default, but you can
already change it there on demand).  Leave the constants as they are (LF).
It could be announced as something for 9.6 to give the community time to
test.  The only way it would be a problem is if you were exporting a text
file on a Mac that was going to be consumed by a program that depended on
CR line endings.

Since LC consumes all 3 formats equally well, it would be no issue on the
read side.

Internally the concern is the build tools/environment.  I've built LC with
it changed (actually submitted it as part of a PR, but had to reverse it)
before 9 was GM.  It passed the automated tests when I did it.

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:28 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Brian Milby wrote:
>
>  > The reason for the difficulty is that internally LC uses LF as the
>  > line ending.  The cr, lf, and return constants all actually map to LF.
>  > When you write a text file, LC will convert line endings to the native
>  > format.  So for Windows you get CRLF, Linux gets LF, and Mac gets CR.
>  > I take issue with this because as of OS X the native line ending for
>  > the OS is actually now LF...
>
> Agreed.
>
> The hard question is: What shall we do about it?
>
> On the one hand, we have millions of lines of code in our community that
> use CR, and a certain percentage of those are dependent on CR having a
> specific value (even if that value is inconsistent with the true ASCII
> value).
>
> On the other hand, we have a constant that suggests it's one thing when
> it's really something else, and at this point that design decision
> benefits no one and confuses many.
>
> Favor backward compatibility, or language learnability/usability?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct 31 01:39:08 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:39:08 -0400
Subject: "empty" background in printed pdf is actually grey
In-Reply-To: <F254AFBE-A0F3-408C-BA7B-830D44CFE53D@gmail.com>
References: <F254AFBE-A0F3-408C-BA7B-830D44CFE53D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+khHBjwGbKLBx_kkitZTdXYNLdSGKg8T8PsWNyv55GWA@mail.gmail.com>

Don't things inherit attributes?..... so if empty, that means the card
would inherit the stacks background color??

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:21 PM Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> I?m within spitting distance on this merging of pdfs, using livecode to
> generate python code and using the PyPDF2 library.
>
> My last problem is that the pdf generated by livecode creates a great
> background, whereas it should be transparent.
>
> set the backgroundColor of otCd to empty
>
> print otCd from otTl to otBr into 18,18,576+18,756
>
> gives me a grey background that obscures the form I?m placing my output on
> top of
>
>
>
> ?
> Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> The Hawkins Law Firm
> 3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
> Suite 232
> Las Vegas, NV  89121
> (702) 508-8462
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 10:34:39 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 14:34:39 +0000
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <82B85D91-22F7-451F-AABD-2FF2149CCD35@hyperhh.de>
 <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EBCC9937-B718-4514-825D-AE399B63E9B3@iotecdigital.com>

Interesting. This may be why when I copy code from the SE and paste it into an email I get double line spacing. 

Bob S


> On Oct 30, 2019, at 19:08 , Brian Milby via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> The reason for the difficulty is that internally LC uses LF as the line
> ending.  The cr, lf, and return constants all actually map to LF.  When you
> write a text file, LC will convert line endings to the native format.  So
> for Windows you get CRLF, Linux gets LF, and Mac gets CR.  I take issue
> with this because as of OS X the native line ending for the OS is actually
> now LF (although most of the stuff built in will handle either LF or CR).
> As a result, I always will generate my text files using binary mode,
> encoded as UTF8 on the Mac.  I will read everything using file to get the
> automatic conversion to LF though.  This does complicate making cross
> platform code that generates text files since you have to check the OS and
> either handle Windows or Mac differently.




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 10:41:33 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 14:41:33 +0000
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <0bb765fd-9836-9184-3e46-6274425a06f2@fourthworld.com>
References: <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0bb765fd-9836-9184-3e46-6274425a06f2@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <8A0B36DC-F565-47D8-8A9B-E293F34A413C@iotecdigital.com>

Not to disagree, but just to mention this is not exclusive to LC. If I download the address book of a Toshiba copier, then just OPEN it with Microsoft Office ot TextEdit, then close without saving, I can no longer import that file into the copier again. 

Upon examining the ascii value of every line terminator I discovered something, perhaps the OS or the software itself, converted the terminators to something else. I also find this practice to be not just confusing, but reprehensible. I'm sure it was done as an easy fix to some other text display problem, but developers have no license to change the data in a file without the user's knowledge and approval. 

That being said, I also use open binary for write to get around this limitation. As long as I don't put data into a text field as temporary storage, in other words just memory, then the line endings are preserved no matter what OS I run on. 

Bob S


> On Oct 30, 2019, at 19:27 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Brian Milby wrote:
> 
> > The reason for the difficulty is that internally LC uses LF as the
> > line ending.  The cr, lf, and return constants all actually map to LF.
> > When you write a text file, LC will convert line endings to the native
> > format.  So for Windows you get CRLF, Linux gets LF, and Mac gets CR.
> > I take issue with this because as of OS X the native line ending for
> > the OS is actually now LF...
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> The hard question is: What shall we do about it?
> 
> On the one hand, we have millions of lines of code in our community that use CR, and a certain percentage of those are dependent on CR having a specific value (even if that value is inconsistent with the true ASCII value).
> 
> On the other hand, we have a constant that suggests it's one thing when it's really something else, and at this point that design decision benefits no one and confuses many.
> 
> Favor backward compatibility, or language learnability/usability?
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 11:00:14 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:00:14 +0000
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>

Or better yet: -- No error checking, assumes parameters are correct. Also not tested. :-)

on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
   ## My good ol' banana, older users of MC might remember that one :-D
   set the filename of the templateimage to pSourceFile
   
   ## This was a know (to me) feature
   put the formattedwidth of the templateimage into tFW
   put the formattedheight of the templateimage into tFH
   ## Now you can apply some "rule of three" to scale the image while preserving its ratio
   ## I'll leave that up to you... :-)
   
   ## I cheated a bit:
   set the width of the templateimage to round(tFW * (pScaleFactor /100))
   set the height of the templateimage to round(tFH * (pScaleFactor /100))
   
   ## But this one really suprised me:
   switch pFormat
      case "JPEG"
         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
         break
      case "BMP"
         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
         break
      case "PNG"
         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
         break
   end switch
   
   reset the templateimage
end exportScaledImage


> On Oct 30, 2019, at 13:13 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> we know that "the templatexxxxxx" is a very helpful thingie.
> 
> But I was really surprised that we can even EXPORT something
> from the templateimage until I tried this:
<snip>


From benr_mc at cogapp.com  Thu Oct 31 11:16:14 2019
From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:16:14 -0000
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <CA+yhkRY5MavkCEys0gEz_UAOsMuUZPdEzXF-bJ3aGLQj-eB-fQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0bb765fd-9836-9184-3e46-6274425a06f2@fourthworld.com>
 <CA+yhkRY5MavkCEys0gEz_UAOsMuUZPdEzXF-bJ3aGLQj-eB-fQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6994ea02-9913-714f-d901-048ef46b140f@cogapp.com>

> My suggestion is to just bite the bullet and build LC where 'file' exports
> using LF on Mac

Oh please yes!

It's been 18 years since the Mac standardised on LF. (And AFAIK Metacard only 
started supporting the Mac eight years before that, so 
Metacard/Revolution/LiveCode has already been writing the 'wrong' files for 
twice as long as it was writing the 'right' ones.)

As you say, it's moot on import to LC; so the only instance where this change 
could cause a compatibility issue would be where an LC-based tool is 
generating files for consumption by some other system which is dependent on 
them being CR format. Such a tool is presumably going to be Mac based - a 
Windows or *nix system would be more likely to reject that format than depend 
on it, if it accepts the format it's probably sophisticated enough to accept 
LF as well. So we're talking about a Mac based system which is still running 
but which in 18 years hasn't been updated to at least also accept the native 
format of the OS that it runs on. And this will only be an issue if someone 
updates their app producing these files to the latest version of LC (in which 
case they will surely anyway be having to take special precautions and write 
the file as binary to avoid confusing an ancient system with UTF8??). I don't 
know if such a case exists; I certainly doubt if there are very many such.

Brian - what would be required before you could submit your work as a PR again?

Ben


On 31/10/2019 03:26, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> My suggestion is to just bite the bullet and build LC where 'file' exports
> using LF on Mac.  The change required is literally a couple of characters
> in one file (maybe two files to include the server default, but you can
> already change it there on demand).  Leave the constants as they are (LF).
> It could be announced as something for 9.6 to give the community time to
> test.  The only way it would be a problem is if you were exporting a text
> file on a Mac that was going to be consumed by a program that depended on
> CR line endings.
> 
> Since LC consumes all 3 formats equally well, it would be no issue on the
> read side.
> 
> Internally the concern is the build tools/environment.  I've built LC with
> it changed (actually submitted it as part of a PR, but had to reverse it)
> before 9 was GM.  It passed the automated tests when I did it.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:28 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Brian Milby wrote:
>>
>>   > The reason for the difficulty is that internally LC uses LF as the
>>   > line ending.  The cr, lf, and return constants all actually map to LF.
>>   > When you write a text file, LC will convert line endings to the native
>>   > format.  So for Windows you get CRLF, Linux gets LF, and Mac gets CR.
>>   > I take issue with this because as of OS X the native line ending for
>>   > the OS is actually now LF...
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>> The hard question is: What shall we do about it?
>>
>> On the one hand, we have millions of lines of code in our community that
>> use CR, and a certain percentage of those are dependent on CR having a
>> specific value (even if that value is inconsistent with the true ASCII
>> value).
>>
>> On the other hand, we have a constant that suggests it's one thing when
>> it's really something else, and at this point that design decision
>> benefits no one and confuses many.
>>
>> Favor backward compatibility, or language learnability/usability?
>>
>> --
>>    Richard Gaskin
>>    Fourth World Systems
>>    Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>    ____________________________________________________________________
>>    Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From klaus at major-k.de  Thu Oct 31 11:19:32 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:19:32 +0100
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <6994ea02-9913-714f-d901-048ef46b140f@cogapp.com>
References: <CA+yhkRYPHPSYDgf8_8KV=P7F1PdS5U1bnv5XkU7bApORVC1qHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0bb765fd-9836-9184-3e46-6274425a06f2@fourthworld.com>
 <CA+yhkRY5MavkCEys0gEz_UAOsMuUZPdEzXF-bJ3aGLQj-eB-fQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <6994ea02-9913-714f-d901-048ef46b140f@cogapp.com>
Message-ID: <E7981F4D-9795-422A-974E-236DE1A71CEA@major-k.de>

Hi Ben,

> Am 31.10.2019 um 16:16 schrieb Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
>> My suggestion is to just bite the bullet and build LC where 'file' exports
>> using LF on Mac
> Oh please yes!
> It's been 18 years since the Mac standardised on LF. (And AFAIK Metacard only started supporting the Mac eight years before that, so Metacard/Revolution/LiveCode has already been writing the 'wrong' files for twice as long as it was writing the 'right' ones.)

The first Mac and Win version of Metacard came out in 1999.

> ...
> 
> Ben

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Thu Oct 31 12:24:48 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:24:48 -0700
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <6994ea02-9913-714f-d901-048ef46b140f@cogapp.com>
References: <6994ea02-9913-714f-d901-048ef46b140f@cogapp.com>
Message-ID: <0863cdf2-84fe-0331-576f-918834485c7c@fourthworld.com>

Ben Rubinstein wrote:

 > Brian Milby wrote:
 >> My suggestion is to just bite the bullet and build LC where 'file'
 >> exports using LF on Mac
 >
 > Oh please yes!

Seconded.

Containing the scope of the remedy to text writes should affect very 
few, and those affected will probably welcome the change.

What needs to be done to move this forward?


Bob Sneidar  wrote:
 > Upon examining the ascii value of every line terminator I discovered
 > something, perhaps the OS or the software itself, converted the
 > terminators to something else. I also find this practice to be not
 > just confusing, but reprehensible.

LC supports two write modes: text and binary.  Perhaps the editor you'd 
used supports the equivalent of LC's text mode, where the data is indeed 
altered to provide greater convenience for cross-platform line-endings, 
replacing NULLs with spaces, etc.  This is consistent with how HyperTalk 
established writes, and I've seen some text editor packages do similar 
things.

When you need to preserve data as-is, use binary mode.

Thankfully LC provides both.  HyperCard provided only text mode, and 
SuperCard only binary mode.  I like being able to use each depending on 
what I'm doing.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From brian at milby7.com  Thu Oct 31 12:27:31 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:27:31 -0400
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <0863cdf2-84fe-0331-576f-918834485c7c@fourthworld.com>
References: <6994ea02-9913-714f-d901-048ef46b140f@cogapp.com>
 <0863cdf2-84fe-0331-576f-918834485c7c@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <acb43a12-da22-4f5a-bc45-6feda0a90a91@Spark>

I?ll submit a PR tonight.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 31, 2019, 12:26 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> Ben Rubinstein wrote:
>
> > Brian Milby wrote:
> > > My suggestion is to just bite the bullet and build LC where 'file'
> > > exports using LF on Mac
> >
> > Oh please yes!
>
> Seconded.
>
> Containing the scope of the remedy to text writes should affect very
> few, and those affected will probably welcome the change.
>
> What needs to be done to move this forward?
>
>
> Bob Sneidar wrote:
> > Upon examining the ascii value of every line terminator I discovered
> > something, perhaps the OS or the software itself, converted the
> > terminators to something else. I also find this practice to be not
> > just confusing, but reprehensible.
>
> LC supports two write modes: text and binary. Perhaps the editor you'd
> used supports the equivalent of LC's text mode, where the data is indeed
> altered to provide greater convenience for cross-platform line-endings,
> replacing NULLs with spaces, etc. This is consistent with how HyperTalk
> established writes, and I've seen some text editor packages do similar
> things.
>
> When you need to preserve data as-is, use binary mode.
>
> Thankfully LC provides both. HyperCard provided only text mode, and
> SuperCard only binary mode. I like being able to use each depending on
> what I'm doing.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 12:31:30 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:31:30 +0000
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <0863cdf2-84fe-0331-576f-918834485c7c@fourthworld.com>
References: <6994ea02-9913-714f-d901-048ef46b140f@cogapp.com>
 <0863cdf2-84fe-0331-576f-918834485c7c@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <6534E401-D9D9-4351-B011-9CC4F1DB511E@iotecdigital.com>

I gave the wrong impression. I was saying that other apps and it perhaps the OS X system itself takes liberties with conversion of line endings. For instance, Mocrosoft Word and Excel. I would expect I could open a file to look at it, close it without saving, and absolutely nothing would change. But it does. 

I know this because I tested it with one of the aforementioned Address Book Export files. I exported the file, then imported it without opening it in any MacOS app. Worked fine. Opened the file in Word, closed without saving, copier refused to import the file. 

That sort of thing is what I meant was reprehensible. Developers should not be taking those liberties. 

Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 09:24 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Bob Sneidar  wrote:
> > Upon examining the ascii value of every line terminator I discovered
> > something, perhaps the OS or the software itself, converted the
> > terminators to something else. I also find this practice to be not
> > just confusing, but reprehensible.
> 
> LC supports two write modes: text and binary.  Perhaps the editor you'd used supports the equivalent of LC's text mode, where the data is indeed altered to provide greater convenience for cross-platform line-endings, replacing NULLs with spaces, etc.  This is consistent with how HyperTalk established writes, and I've seen some text editor packages do similar things.
> 
> When you need to preserve data as-is, use binary mode.
> 
> Thankfully LC provides both.  HyperCard provided only text mode, and SuperCard only binary mode.  I like being able to use each depending on what I'm doing.




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Thu Oct 31 12:36:09 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:36:09 -0700
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
References: <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <46b72f3f-125c-0aef-8a93-e6cbf8d0bff6@fourthworld.com>

The "import snapshot" command had an "at size" option added several 
versions ago to facilitate some scaling tasks:

    import snapshot from the selectedObject at size 100,100

But oddly, no such option has been added to the "export snapshot" command.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems


Bob Sneidar wrote:
> Or better yet: -- No error checking, assumes parameters are correct. Also not tested. :-)
> 
> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>    ## My good ol' banana, older users of MC might remember that one :-D
>    set the filename of the templateimage to pSourceFile
>    
>    ## This was a know (to me) feature
>    put the formattedwidth of the templateimage into tFW
>    put the formattedheight of the templateimage into tFH
>    ## Now you can apply some "rule of three" to scale the image while preserving its ratio
>    ## I'll leave that up to you... :-)
>    
>    ## I cheated a bit:
>    set the width of the templateimage to round(tFW * (pScaleFactor /100))
>    set the height of the templateimage to round(tFH * (pScaleFactor /100))
>    
>    ## But this one really suprised me:
>    switch pFormat
>       case "JPEG"
>          export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>          break
>       case "BMP"
>          export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>          break
>       case "PNG"
>          export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>          break
>    end switch
>    
>    reset the templateimage
> end exportScaledImage




From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Thu Oct 31 12:44:26 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:44:26 -0700
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <6534E401-D9D9-4351-B011-9CC4F1DB511E@iotecdigital.com>
References: <6534E401-D9D9-4351-B011-9CC4F1DB511E@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <09941a54-c864-9748-e62e-9a6e1176b62e@fourthworld.com>

Bob Sneidar wrote:

 > I would expect I could open a file to look at it, close it without
 > saving, and absolutely nothing would change. But it does.
 >
 > I know this because I tested it with one of the aforementioned Address
 > Book Export files. I exported the file, then imported it without
 > opening it in any MacOS app. Worked fine. Opened the file in Word,
 > closed without saving, copier refused to import the file.
 >
 > That sort of thing is what I meant was reprehensible. Developers
 > should not be taking those liberties.

When read-only tasks write, head should roll.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Oct 31 12:54:01 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:54:01 -0500
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <09941a54-c864-9748-e62e-9a6e1176b62e@fourthworld.com>
References: <6534E401-D9D9-4351-B011-9CC4F1DB511E@iotecdigital.com>
 <09941a54-c864-9748-e62e-9a6e1176b62e@fourthworld.com>
Message-ID: <16e22bcfc28.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

Or could this be a result of OS Xs decision to save iterative versions of a 
file whether you want it to or not?

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 31, 2019 11:46:29 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Bob Sneidar wrote:
>
> > I would expect I could open a file to look at it, close it without
> > saving, and absolutely nothing would change. But it does.
> >
> > I know this because I tested it with one of the aforementioned Address
> > Book Export files. I exported the file, then imported it without
> > opening it in any MacOS app. Worked fine. Opened the file in Word,
> > closed without saving, copier refused to import the file.
> >
> > That sort of thing is what I meant was reprehensible. Developers
> > should not be taking those liberties.
>
> When read-only tasks write, head should roll.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  ____________________________________________________________________
>  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From klaus at major-k.de  Thu Oct 31 13:01:26 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:01:26 +0100
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>

Hi Bob,

> Am 31.10.2019 um 16:00 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> Or better yet: -- No error checking, assumes parameters are correct. Also not tested. :-)
> 
> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>  ...
>   switch pFormat
>      case "JPEG"
>         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>         break
>      case "BMP"
>         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>         break
>      case "PNG"
>         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>         break
>   end switch
> ...

too bad LC does not like a variable for the target format:
...
export the templateimage to file pDestFile as pFormat
...
-> Compile error


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 13:01:47 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:01:47 +0000
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <16e22bcfc28.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <6534E401-D9D9-4351-B011-9CC4F1DB511E@iotecdigital.com>
 <09941a54-c864-9748-e62e-9a6e1176b62e@fourthworld.com>
 <16e22bcfc28.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <AF299821-7789-4CBD-8213-7862F3F031BB@iotecdigital.com>

Possibly, but then where is the original file? And why make a new file when closed without saving? 

Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 09:54 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Or could this be a result of OS Xs decision to save iterative versions of a file whether you want it to or not?
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 13:04:20 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:04:20 +0000
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>

When you call the command or when you save the script? Mine compiled. In any case I'll update it to use DO. 

Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:01 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
>> Am 31.10.2019 um 16:00 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> Or better yet: -- No error checking, assumes parameters are correct. Also not tested. :-)
>> 
>> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>> ...
>>  switch pFormat
>>     case "JPEG"
>>        export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>>        break
>>     case "BMP"
>>        export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>>        break
>>     case "PNG"
>>        export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>>        break
>>  end switch
>> ...
> 
> too bad LC does not like a variable for the target format:
> ...
> export the templateimage to file pDestFile as pFormat
> ...
> -> Compile error
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> 
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de




From klaus at major-k.de  Thu Oct 31 13:07:47 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:07:47 +0100
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
 <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <C280772C-A914-43A7-8674-B1997A594DB1@major-k.de>



> Am 31.10.2019 um 18:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> When you call the command or when you save the script?

when hitting ENTER in the script editor = compiling

> Mine compiled.

???
I use LC 9.5 on macOS 10.14.6

> In any case I'll update it to use DO. 
> 
> Bob S
> ...
>> 
>>> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>>> ...
>>> switch pFormat
>>>    case "JPEG"
>>>       export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>>>       break
>>>    case "BMP"
>>>       export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>>>       break
>>>    case "PNG"
>>>       export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>>>       break
>>> end switch
>>> ...
>> too bad LC does not like a variable for the target format:
>> ...
>> export the templateimage to file pDestFile as pFormat
>> ...
>> -> Compile error

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 13:20:02 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:20:02 +0000
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <C280772C-A914-43A7-8674-B1997A594DB1@major-k.de>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
 <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
 <C280772C-A914-43A7-8674-B1997A594DB1@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <09DD3000-E1D2-4FF7-A3FA-EE358849D2C5@iotecdigital.com>

Me too. I just tested it and got a 50% scaled image as a JPEG file. Let me try sending it to you again private email. 

Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:07 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 31.10.2019 um 18:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>> 
>> When you call the command or when you save the script?
> 
> when hitting ENTER in the script editor = compiling
> 
>> Mine compiled.
> 
> ???
> I use LC 9.5 on macOS 10.14.6
> 
>> In any case I'll update it to use DO. 
>> 
>> Bob S
>> ...
>>> 
>>>> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>>>> ...
>>>> switch pFormat
>>>>   case "JPEG"
>>>>      export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>>>>      break
>>>>   case "BMP"
>>>>      export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>>>>      break
>>>>   case "PNG"
>>>>      export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>>>>      break
>>>> end switch
>>>> ...
>>> too bad LC does not like a variable for the target format:
>>> ...
>>> export the templateimage to file pDestFile as pFormat
>>> ...
>>> -> Compile error
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> 
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 13:22:18 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:22:18 +0000
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <09DD3000-E1D2-4FF7-A3FA-EE358849D2C5@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
 <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
 <C280772C-A914-43A7-8674-B1997A594DB1@major-k.de>
 <09DD3000-E1D2-4FF7-A3FA-EE358849D2C5@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <D423DD1B-CF43-425A-A315-9B8BAB29DF61@iotecdigital.com>

BTW do you use strict variables?

Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:20 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Me too. I just tested it and got a 50% scaled image as a JPEG file. Let me try sending it to you again private email. 
> 
> Bob S




From klaus at major-k.de  Thu Oct 31 13:25:34 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:25:34 +0100
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <D423DD1B-CF43-425A-A315-9B8BAB29DF61@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
 <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
 <C280772C-A914-43A7-8674-B1997A594DB1@major-k.de>
 <09DD3000-E1D2-4FF7-A3FA-EE358849D2C5@iotecdigital.com>
 <D423DD1B-CF43-425A-A315-9B8BAB29DF61@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <5C110D50-8EB7-425A-BEC1-15F030DAEE9A@major-k.de>



> Am 31.10.2019 um 18:22 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> BTW do you use strict variables?

NEVER! :-)

> Bob S
> 
>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:20 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Me too. I just tested it and got a 50% scaled image as a JPEG file. Let me try sending it to you again private email. 
>> 
>> Bob S
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From klaus at major-k.de  Thu Oct 31 13:34:32 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:34:32 +0100
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
 <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <4BFBF518-8834-4558-B7CD-520CE6B93571@major-k.de>

Hi all,

> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:01 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>>> Am 31.10.2019 um 16:00 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>> 
>>> Or better yet: -- No error checking, assumes parameters are correct. Also not tested. :-)
>>> 
>>> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>>> ...
>>> switch pFormat
>>>    case "JPEG"
>>>       export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>>>       break
>>>    case "BMP"
>>>       export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>>>       break
>>>    case "PNG"
>>>       export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>>>       break
>>> end switch
>>> ...
>> 
>> too bad LC does not like a variable for the target format:
>> ...
>> export the templateimage to file pDestFile as pFormat
>> ...
>> -> Compile error

i filed an enhancement request:
<https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22437>


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 13:37:06 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:37:06 +0000
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <4BFBF518-8834-4558-B7CD-520CE6B93571@major-k.de>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
 <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
 <4BFBF518-8834-4558-B7CD-520CE6B93571@major-k.de>
Message-ID: <56C89E8D-6675-48C5-B5D9-8123E952524E@iotecdigital.com>

You removed the parenthesis. PUT 'EM BACK!  LOL! 

Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:34 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:01 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Bob,
>>> 
>>>> Am 31.10.2019 um 16:00 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>>> 
>>>> Or better yet: -- No error checking, assumes parameters are correct. Also not tested. :-)
>>>> 
>>>> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>>>> ...
>>>> switch pFormat
>>>>   case "JPEG"
>>>>      export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>>>>      break
>>>>   case "BMP"
>>>>      export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>>>>      break
>>>>   case "PNG"
>>>>      export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>>>>      break
>>>> end switch
>>>> ...
>>> 
>>> too bad LC does not like a variable for the target format:
>>> ...
>>> export the templateimage to file pDestFile as pFormat
>>> ...
>>> -> Compile error
> 
> i filed an enhancement request:
> <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22437>
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> klaus at major-k.de
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 13:39:13 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:39:13 +0000
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <56C89E8D-6675-48C5-B5D9-8123E952524E@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <92BCEA50-1E1B-4E28-BA92-28C9EC4CB0A7@major-k.de>
 <AF871CE3-A53F-465C-8DBD-4168F79C20D6@iotecdigital.com>
 <4BFBF518-8834-4558-B7CD-520CE6B93571@major-k.de>
 <56C89E8D-6675-48C5-B5D9-8123E952524E@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <798BBD69-5536-4EB1-A3F7-BFA319C97B1F@iotecdigital.com>

I should put a disclaimer in the comments of any code I write:

Note: The Author is not responsible for the loss of functionality or any consequences derived from to the alteration of any segment of this code. 

:-)
Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:37 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com> wrote:
> 
> You removed the parenthesis. PUT 'EM BACK!  LOL! 
> 
> Bob S
> 
> 
>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:34 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 10:01 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>> 
>>>>> Am 31.10.2019 um 16:00 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Or better yet: -- No error checking, assumes parameters are correct. Also not tested. :-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>>>>> ...
>>>>> switch pFormat
>>>>>  case "JPEG"
>>>>>     export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>>>>>     break
>>>>>  case "BMP"
>>>>>     export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>>>>>     break
>>>>>  case "PNG"
>>>>>     export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>>>>>     break
>>>>> end switch
>>>>> ...
>>>> 
>>>> too bad LC does not like a variable for the target format:
>>>> ...
>>>> export the templateimage to file pDestFile as pFormat
>>>> ...
>>>> -> Compile error
>> 
>> i filed an enhancement request:
>> <https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22437>
>> 
>> 
>> Best
>> 
>> Klaus
>> --
>> Klaus Major
>> https://www.major-k.de
>> klaus at major-k.de
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 15:03:58 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:03:58 +0000
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <6AF201A8-2E20-40A0-87EE-198ACC02BB6B@iotecdigital.com>

OK New version with error checking, and also addresses the issue where Klaus could not compile:

on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
   -- Validate parameters
   -- pSourceFile
   if not there is a file pSourceFile then \
         answer error "Source file does not exist!" as sheet ; exit exportScaledImage 
   set the itemDelimiter to "/"
   
   -- pDestFile
   if not there is a folder (item 1 to -2 of pDestFile) then \
         answer error "Destination folder does not exist!" as sheet ; exit exportScaledImage
   
   -- pScaleFactor
   if not (pScaleFactor is a number) or not(pScaleFactor <1) then \
         answer error "Scale factor must be a percentage > 0!" as sheet ; exit exportScaledImage
   
   -- pFormat
   if not (pFormat is among the items of "JPEG/BMP/PNG") then \
         answer error "Valid formats are: JPEG, BMP or PNG." as sheet ; exit exportScaledImage
   
   -- set the source file as the template image and get dimensions
   set the filename of the templateimage to pSourceFile
   put the formattedwidth of the templateimage into tFW
   put the formattedheight of the templateimage into tFH
   
   -- scale the image to a round value
   set the width of the templateimage to round(tFW * (pScaleFactor /100))
   set the height of the templateimage to round(tFH * (pScaleFactor /100))
   
   -- convert file
   switch pFormat
      case "JPEG"
         put "export the templateimage to file " & quote & pDestFile & quote & " as JPEG" into tCommand
         break
      case "BMP"
         put "export the templateimage to file " & quote & pDestFile & quote & " as BMP" into tCommand
         break
      case "PNG"
         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
         put "export the templateimage to file " & quote & pDestFile & quote & " as PNG" into tCommand
         break
   end switch
   
   do tCommand
   
   -- reset
   reset the templateimage
end exportScaledImage

> On Oct 31, 2019, at 08:00 , Bob Sneidar <bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com> wrote:
> 
> Or better yet: -- No error checking, assumes parameters are correct. Also not tested. :-)
> 
> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>   ## My good ol' banana, older users of MC might remember that one :-D
>   set the filename of the templateimage to pSourceFile
> 
>   ## This was a know (to me) feature
>   put the formattedwidth of the templateimage into tFW
>   put the formattedheight of the templateimage into tFH
>   ## Now you can apply some "rule of three" to scale the image while preserving its ratio
>   ## I'll leave that up to you... :-)
> 
>   ## I cheated a bit:
>   set the width of the templateimage to round(tFW * (pScaleFactor /100))
>   set the height of the templateimage to round(tFH * (pScaleFactor /100))
> 
>   ## But this one really suprised me:
>   switch pFormat
>      case "JPEG"
>         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as JPEG
>         break
>      case "BMP"
>         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as BMP
>         break
>      case "PNG"
>         export the templateimage to file (pDestFile) as PNG
>         break
>   end switch
> 
>   reset the templateimage
> end exportScaledImage
> 
> 
>> On Oct 30, 2019, at 13:13 , Klaus major-k via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> we know that "the templatexxxxxx" is a very helpful thingie.
>> 
>> But I was really surprised that we can even EXPORT something
>> from the templateimage until I tried this:
> <snip>




From klaus at major-k.de  Thu Oct 31 15:13:15 2019
From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:15 +0100
Subject: Fun with the templateimage
In-Reply-To: <6AF201A8-2E20-40A0-87EE-198ACC02BB6B@iotecdigital.com>
References: <A4EB09E4-3C99-4E6B-AFA1-CB6C22620D94@major-k.de>
 <7554A738-126E-4FF5-9350-15AC3C210E04@iotecdigital.com>
 <6AF201A8-2E20-40A0-87EE-198ACC02BB6B@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <75A007C8-5916-4A4B-82A7-250008BCBB3A@major-k.de>

Hi Bob,

> Am 31.10.2019 um 20:03 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>:
> 
> OK New version with error checking, and also addresses the issue where Klaus could not compile:
> 
> on exportScaledImage pSourceFile, pDestFile, pScaleFactor, pFormat
>   -- Validate parameters
>   -- pSourceFile
>   if not there is a file pSourceFile then \
>         answer error "Source file does not exist!" as sheet ; exit exportScaledImage 
>   set the itemDelimiter to "/"
> 
>   -- pDestFile
>   if not there is a folder (item 1 to -2 of pDestFile) then \
>         answer error "Destination folder does not exist!" as sheet ; exit exportScaledImage
> 
>   -- pScaleFactor
>   if not (pScaleFactor is a number) or not(pScaleFactor <1) then \
>         answer error "Scale factor must be a percentage > 0!" as sheet ; exit exportScaledImage
> 
>   -- pFormat
>   if not (pFormat is among the items of "JPEG/BMP/PNG") then \
>         answer error "Valid formats are: JPEG, BMP or PNG." as sheet ; exit exportScaledImage
> 
>   -- set the source file as the template image and get dimensions
>   set the filename of the templateimage to pSourceFile
>   put the formattedwidth of the templateimage into tFW
>   put the formattedheight of the templateimage into tFH
> 
>   -- scale the image to a round value
>   set the width of the templateimage to round(tFW * (pScaleFactor /100))
>   set the height of the templateimage to round(tFH * (pScaleFactor /100))

## Just tested with DO, this does work WITHOUT switch 8-)
put "export the templateimage to file " & quote & pDestFile & quote & " as" && pFormat into tCommand

>   do tCommand
>   -- reset
>   reset the templateimage
> end exportScaledImage

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
klaus at major-k.de




From dougr at telus.net  Thu Oct 31 17:50:01 2019
From: dougr at telus.net (Douglas Ruisaard)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 14:50:01 -0700
Subject: generating a standalone in v9.x
Message-ID: <013a01d59035$29465800$7bd30800$@net>

I am having an issue with using "any" business version of 9 (9.04, 9.05, 9.5-32bit, 9.5-64bit) to generate a standalone output of my application.  I am using Windows 7 Enterprise SP1 and have tried building the identical script (with the same result) on two different installations of said OS on two different machines.

LC business v 8.1.10 generates the standalone fine.

LC business version 9.0.5 (with IDENTICAL settings in the "Standalone Application Settings" as used in the v8.1.10 build) seems to crash LC  just at the point of "closing open stacks" at which point all things LC disappear from my desktop.  An appropriate "destination" directory for the standalone is created as per the settings but it is completely empty.

The actual application runs fine in all LC business versions... it's just that I can't get the LC v9.x to generated the standalone... and ... I can't find ANY error or log explaining what is wrong!!

Is there such a log or audit which details the steps that LC is taking and possibly what the issue is that it cannot resolve?  I have checked at the Administrators tools event logging provided by Windows 7 ... but there is no corresponding event which is simultaneous with the LC "crash".

I follow this user-group quite closely and seem to recall others having issues with LC v9's standalone processes but I cannot seem to find such references within the very large amount of chat this site contains.  I have NOT checked the LC QC bugs since I really don't know what I'm looking for other than potential issues with the standalone builder.

I'd very much appreciate any tips, pointers, explanations as to how to either resolve this issue or where within my LC environment I can find any logs concerning the standalone processing.

Cheers!
Douglas Ruisaard
Trilogy Software
(250) 573-3935






From brian at milby7.com  Thu Oct 31 18:06:24 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:06:24 -0400
Subject: generating a standalone in v9.x
In-Reply-To: <013a01d59035$29465800$7bd30800$@net>
References: <013a01d59035$29465800$7bd30800$@net>
Message-ID: <12b421e5-d25d-464d-8c94-c15e99480ac0@Spark>

There is a breaking change in 9 where lock messages is no longer issued when closing and opening the stacks as a part of the build process. ?There is some suggested code around. ?It revolves around testing for being in the build process for the ?(pre)openXxx messages. ?That May be the issue you are running into.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 31, 2019, 5:51 PM -0400, Douglas Ruisaard via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
> I am having an issue with using "any" business version of 9 (9.04, 9.05, 9.5-32bit, 9.5-64bit) to generate a standalone output of my application. I am using Windows 7 Enterprise SP1 and have tried building the identical script (with the same result) on two different installations of said OS on two different machines.
>
> LC business v 8.1.10 generates the standalone fine.
>
> LC business version 9.0.5 (with IDENTICAL settings in the "Standalone Application Settings" as used in the v8.1.10 build) seems to crash LC just at the point of "closing open stacks" at which point all things LC disappear from my desktop. An appropriate "destination" directory for the standalone is created as per the settings but it is completely empty.
>
> The actual application runs fine in all LC business versions... it's just that I can't get the LC v9.x to generated the standalone... and ... I can't find ANY error or log explaining what is wrong!!
>
> Is there such a log or audit which details the steps that LC is taking and possibly what the issue is that it cannot resolve? I have checked at the Administrators tools event logging provided by Windows 7 ... but there is no corresponding event which is simultaneous with the LC "crash".
>
> I follow this user-group quite closely and seem to recall others having issues with LC v9's standalone processes but I cannot seem to find such references within the very large amount of chat this site contains. I have NOT checked the LC QC bugs since I really don't know what I'm looking for other than potential issues with the standalone builder.
>
> I'd very much appreciate any tips, pointers, explanations as to how to either resolve this issue or where within my LC environment I can find any logs concerning the standalone processing.
>
> Cheers!
> Douglas Ruisaard
> Trilogy Software
> (250) 573-3935
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 18:12:17 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 22:12:17 +0000
Subject: generating a standalone in v9.x
In-Reply-To: <013a01d59035$29465800$7bd30800$@net>
References: <013a01d59035$29465800$7bd30800$@net>
Message-ID: <EA740572-5177-4B16-A839-E6218E17F167@iotecdigital.com>

There is a set of commands that in certain scripts like opesStack and closeStack that will check to see if the standalone builder is running, and then you can abort the handler. 

The reason they do this is because your app could be doing anything at the moment the standalone is being built. The standalone has to walk through every script to check what add-ons or libraries you use so it can include them. 

Here's what I do. In the stackScript of the mainStack:

on savingStandalone
   put true into gBuildingStandAlone
end savingStandalone

on standaloneSaved
   put false into gBuildingStandAlone
end standaloneSaved

Then in any openStack handler, either in the stack or card, I put this:

   put the environment is "development" and \
         there is a stack "revStandaloneProgress" and \
         the mode of stack "revStandaloneProgress" > 0 into skipLogin
   
   if not skipLogin then
   --- code that borks your standalone building. For me it was calling a login dialog as modal. 
   end if

Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 14:50 , Douglas Ruisaard via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> I am having an issue with using "any" business version of 9 (9.04, 9.05, 9.5-32bit, 9.5-64bit) to generate a standalone output of my application.  I am using Windows 7 Enterprise SP1 and have tried building the identical script (with the same result) on two different installations of said OS on two different machines.
> 
> LC business v 8.1.10 generates the standalone fine.
> 
> LC business version 9.0.5 (with IDENTICAL settings in the "Standalone Application Settings" as used in the v8.1.10 build) seems to crash LC  just at the point of "closing open stacks" at which point all things LC disappear from my desktop.  An appropriate "destination" directory for the standalone is created as per the settings but it is completely empty.
> 
> The actual application runs fine in all LC business versions... it's just that I can't get the LC v9.x to generated the standalone... and ... I can't find ANY error or log explaining what is wrong!!
> 
> Is there such a log or audit which details the steps that LC is taking and possibly what the issue is that it cannot resolve?  I have checked at the Administrators tools event logging provided by Windows 7 ... but there is no corresponding event which is simultaneous with the LC "crash".
> 
> I follow this user-group quite closely and seem to recall others having issues with LC v9's standalone processes but I cannot seem to find such references within the very large amount of chat this site contains.  I have NOT checked the LC QC bugs since I really don't know what I'm looking for other than potential issues with the standalone builder.
> 
> I'd very much appreciate any tips, pointers, explanations as to how to either resolve this issue or where within my LC environment I can find any logs concerning the standalone processing.
> 
> Cheers!
> Douglas Ruisaard
> Trilogy Software
> (250) 573-3935




From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com  Thu Oct 31 18:14:26 2019
From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 22:14:26 +0000
Subject: generating a standalone in v9.x
In-Reply-To: <EA740572-5177-4B16-A839-E6218E17F167@iotecdigital.com>
References: <013a01d59035$29465800$7bd30800$@net>
 <EA740572-5177-4B16-A839-E6218E17F167@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <1E51E212-ABC6-46C5-B713-2636B7FADB31@iotecdigital.com>

Whoops! I forgot one important thing:

global gBuildingStandalone

Bob S


> On Oct 31, 2019, at 15:12 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> Here's what I do. In the stackScript of the mainStack:
> 
> on savingStandalone
>   put true into gBuildingStandAlone
> end savingStandalone




From brian at milby7.com  Thu Oct 31 18:47:51 2019
From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:47:51 -0400
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <acb43a12-da22-4f5a-bc45-6feda0a90a91@Spark>
References: <6994ea02-9913-714f-d901-048ef46b140f@cogapp.com>
 <0863cdf2-84fe-0331-576f-918834485c7c@fourthworld.com>
 <acb43a12-da22-4f5a-bc45-6feda0a90a91@Spark>
Message-ID: <CA+yhkRZhX2HPG0Abg3Q_5Bm8_c3wa1DN095G6dKZ0_Jg-MZy2Q@mail.gmail.com>

https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7214

We'll see where it goes this time...

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:27 PM Brian Milby <brian at milby7.com> wrote:

> I?ll submit a PR tonight.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Oct 31, 2019, 12:26 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>
> Ben Rubinstein wrote:
>
> Brian Milby wrote:
>
> My suggestion is to just bite the bullet and build LC where 'file'
> exports using LF on Mac
>
>
> Oh please yes!
>
>
> Seconded.
>
> Containing the scope of the remedy to text writes should affect very
> few, and those affected will probably welcome the change.
>
> What needs to be done to move this forward?
>
>
> Bob Sneidar wrote:
>
> Upon examining the ascii value of every line terminator I discovered
> something, perhaps the OS or the software itself, converted the
> terminators to something else. I also find this practice to be not
> just confusing, but reprehensible.
>
>
> LC supports two write modes: text and binary. Perhaps the editor you'd
> used supports the equivalent of LC's text mode, where the data is indeed
> altered to provide greater convenience for cross-platform line-endings,
> replacing NULLs with spaces, etc. This is consistent with how HyperTalk
> established writes, and I've seen some text editor packages do similar
> things.
>
> When you need to preserve data as-is, use binary mode.
>
> Thankfully LC provides both. HyperCard provided only text mode, and
> SuperCard only binary mode. I like being able to use each depending on
> what I'm doing.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Ambassador at FourthWorld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>


From ambassador at fourthworld.com  Thu Oct 31 19:02:55 2019
From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:02:55 -0700
Subject: cr, lf, and reading in terminals/vim
In-Reply-To: <CA+yhkRZhX2HPG0Abg3Q_5Bm8_c3wa1DN095G6dKZ0_Jg-MZy2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+yhkRZhX2HPG0Abg3Q_5Bm8_c3wa1DN095G6dKZ0_Jg-MZy2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <858ba71e-de7d-d067-83b8-6ff8be8b0b72@fourthworld.com>

Brian Milby wrote:

 > https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/7214
 >
 > We'll see where it goes this time...

Thank you, Brian.  This is a good step forward for the usability of the 
language.

-- 
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com



From dochawk at gmail.com  Thu Oct 31 20:23:38 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (Dr. Hawkins)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:23:38 -0700
Subject: "empty" background in printed pdf is actually grey
In-Reply-To: <CAPzQJL+khHBjwGbKLBx_kkitZTdXYNLdSGKg8T8PsWNyv55GWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F254AFBE-A0F3-408C-BA7B-830D44CFE53D@gmail.com>
 <CAPzQJL+khHBjwGbKLBx_kkitZTdXYNLdSGKg8T8PsWNyv55GWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55B6956E-9C21-43D1-9557-814D1ADABA86@gmail.com>


On Oct 30, 2019, at 10:39 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Don't things inherit attributes?..... so if empty, that means the card
> would inherit the stacks background color??


The card and the stack also are set to empty backgroundcolor

I?ve also set the opaque of stack, card, and group to false.

I?ve even checked the effective opaque of the selectedObject,  which is false for the group I print it?s pieces.

Yet I get a grey overlay when the pdf is merged into another pdf.



? 
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
The Hawkins Law Firm
3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
Suite 232
Las Vegas, NV  89121
(702) 508-8462



From jacque at hyperactivesw.com  Thu Oct 31 20:42:22 2019
From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:42:22 -0500
Subject: "empty" background in printed pdf is actually grey
In-Reply-To: <55B6956E-9C21-43D1-9557-814D1ADABA86@gmail.com>
References: <F254AFBE-A0F3-408C-BA7B-830D44CFE53D@gmail.com>
 <CAPzQJL+khHBjwGbKLBx_kkitZTdXYNLdSGKg8T8PsWNyv55GWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B6956E-9C21-43D1-9557-814D1ADABA86@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16e2469c5b0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>

A light gray is the system default on OS X windows. You might have better 
luck setting the stack background to opaque and white. But take that with a 
grain of salt, I've never done what you're attempting.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 31, 2019 7:25:37 PM "Dr. Hawkins via use-livecode" 
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 10:39 PM, Tom Glod via use-livecode 
> <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't things inherit attributes?..... so if empty, that means the card
>> would inherit the stacks background color??
>
>
> The card and the stack also are set to empty backgroundcolor
>
> I?ve also set the opaque of stack, card, and group to false.
>
> I?ve even checked the effective opaque of the selectedObject,  which is 
> false for the group I print it?s pieces.
>
> Yet I get a grey overlay when the pdf is merged into another pdf.
>
>
>
> ?
> Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> The Hawkins Law Firm
> 3430 E. Flamingo Rd.
> Suite 232
> Las Vegas, NV  89121
> (702) 508-8462
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode






From dochawk at gmail.com  Thu Oct 31 23:17:17 2019
From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:17:17 -0700
Subject: "empty" background in printed pdf is actually grey
In-Reply-To: <16e2469c5b0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
References: <F254AFBE-A0F3-408C-BA7B-830D44CFE53D@gmail.com>
 <CAPzQJL+khHBjwGbKLBx_kkitZTdXYNLdSGKg8T8PsWNyv55GWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <55B6956E-9C21-43D1-9557-814D1ADABA86@gmail.com>
 <16e2469c5b0.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com>
Message-ID: <8BAD6838-195F-4FF6-8014-5D782384A31D@gmail.com>


On Oct 31, 2019, at 5:42 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
> A light gray is the system default on OS X windows. You might have better luck setting the stack background to opaque and white. But take that with a grain of salt, I've never done what you're attempting.


But if the background is opaque, it will block the text underneath it for the form I?m filling.

I *may* have to go to not even generating a LiveCode pdf, but instead PyPDF2 commands to place text . . .  [yuckier and yuckier . . .]
 


From tom at makeshyft.com  Thu Oct 31 23:53:10 2019
From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 23:53:10 -0400
Subject: The Overflow
In-Reply-To: <C54B9E7C-9F35-4EB7-A2F6-D9A034DBD4F1@iotecdigital.com>
References: <7ba2f089-4718-03ed-123e-d8f193691dba@sonic.net>
 <C54B9E7C-9F35-4EB7-A2F6-D9A034DBD4F1@iotecdigital.com>
Message-ID: <CAPzQJL+Fc8jEi9DscD4dZxLLW=TGSxBkNXn-i_0rdTnOLhrFKw@mail.gmail.com>

thanks for these mark...they will be an interesting read.

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 12:56 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Pure heresy! I CAN write perfect code first time every time! I just have
> to try harder!! ;-)
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 30, 2019, at 09:22 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > My Most Embarrassing Mistakes as a Programmer (so far)
> >
> https://stackoverflow.blog/2019/10/29/my-most-embarrassing-mistakes-as-a-programmer-so-far/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793