What with all it's features and platforms I sometimes forget

[stephen barncard]

Exactly. I mean no bad will to our friend Jerry Daniels, but this is the
difficulty I have with his amazing Rodeo app builder - it may be too easy! I
feel with all the components already made, I'm not really creating anything,
but just paint by numbers and hooking it up  to data. (actually I find it
baffling, because it's like no other programming process I've ever used )

On 27 December 2010 08:29, Thomas McGrath III <mcgrath3 at mac.com> wrote:

> WOW. I had a great holiday and then came back to a semantic argument over
> fun as in easy or no effort versus fun as in enjoyable and a delight to do.
>
> "It's just so much easier to be good at something you enjoy doing, and it
> is absolutely possible to find programming fun, even when it's hard."
>
> For me it's fun especially when it's hard. I love the challenge of coaxing
> an idea into reality and hitting a wall either in concept, design or
> execution and then struggling for a while and maybe having to ask for help
> and eventually coming up with a solution and finally successfully completing
> a project and seeing it work. This is FUN to me, it is exhilarating, it
> makes getting up in the morning  worth doing. I love the challenge and the
> reward, the struggle and the feeling of accomplishment.
>
> My work, effective or not by the standards of someone else, has helped
> thousands of people who otherwise could not speak to be able to not only
> speak but to communicate in a meaningful way with their loved ones this
> holiday season and beyond.  There are systems out there that allow people to
> speak i.e. "I like Brownies" when they push a button and each time they push
> that button they will say "I like Brownies" but if they decide they don't
> and wan't to say "I don't like Brownies" they can't unless they
> painstakingly spell it out or a parent/caretaker enters it for them but this
> is not the same as giving them a way to truly communicate what they actually
> want to say, which is what I do. So I do consider my coding and the result
> very effective. And I have a lot of fun doing it.
>
> -- Tom McGrath III
> http://lazyriver.on-rev.com
> 3mcgrath at comcast.net
>
> On Dec 27, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Richmond wrote:
>
> > On 12/27/2010 10:06 AM, Geoff Canyon Rev wrote:
> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 12:41 AM, Richmond<richmondmathewson at gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >>> Well; good, effective programming is rarely either EASY or FUN; and
> more
> >>> often
> >>> than not involves a lot of prolonged effort, thought, and hard work.
> >>>
> >> Programming is like playing tennis. I'm sure there are professional
> tennis
> >> players who don't enjoy playing the game. They've either grown tired of
> it,
> >> or they simply discovered they had the knack, or fell into it somehow
> and
> >> now they're stuck. But in general, good players like the game, or even
> love
> >> it.
> >
> > I love working with Livecode, and have done ever since day #1. But the
> word 'fun'
> > has be come burdened with the semantics of effortless enjoyment.
> Programming
> > can and should be pleasurable with Livecode, but effortless it is not.
> >
> > To my mind, at least, half the pleasure of working with Livecode is
> putting
> > a bit of effort into something and seeing the wonderful results of the
> > combined efforts of the 'heavy chaps' in Edinburgh (without whom we
> > would be lost) and our own work. If I could achieve the sort of results I
> do
> > without any effort at all they would be virtually valueless as anybody
> > could belt off whatever, whenever, and both Thee and Me would be out
> > of a job!
> >
> >>  It's just so much easier to be good at something you enjoy doing, and
> it
> >> is absolutely possible to find programming fun, even when it's hard.
> >>
> >> To tell would-be end-users that they can create wonderful things without
> a
> >>> fairly serious
> >>> investment of time and effort is simply disingenuous.
> >>>
> >>> I disagree. Granted I have more than a few years invested, but most of
> the
> >>> things I've created over the years have been quick and simple. LC's
> >>> advantage over other languages/environments starts near infinity, and
> drops
> >>> to zero or even negative as the size of the project grows.
> >
> > I agree with you about what you say about Livecode; when I compare it
> with
> > other languages/environments it really does beat them into a cocked hat.
> >
> > However, to maximise Livecode's full potential (and, WOW! what a
> potential)
> > does take quite a bit of effort.
> >
> > While it may take more effort to achieve the same sort of things in other
> > languages/environments it does not mean that doing something in Livecode
> > is exactly "Easy-Peasy-Lemon-Squeezy" either.
> >
> >>> At the one
> >>> extreme is the fact that I can create a workable program and compile it
> for
> >>> several platforms in five minutes or less.
> > I think the word 'workable' is the one we need to focus on here. Most of
> us,
> > even those of us fresh to Livecode, can produce something 'workable' very
> > quickly indeed.
> >
> > However, 'workable' is not quite the same as 'resource efficient' and so
> on.
> >>> In the middle, I have many times
> >>> prototyped something in less than an hour or two that dropped jaws.
> >
> > Of course.
> >
> >>> At the
> >>> other extreme there are the times I would kill or die for real
> handler-level
> >>> integrated source control. Or macros -- what I'd give for macros.
> >>>
> > The ability to produce something 'workable' very quickly, and its use for
> > rapid prototyping are strengths that the folks at RunRev should be
> shouting from the rooftops.
> >
> > I believe that words such as 'easy' and 'fun', however, make Livecode
> sound a bit too
> > simplistic and could detract from Livecode's rich complexity which allows
> its
> > leverage for extremely complex stuff.
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-- 



Stephen Barncard
San Francisco Ca. USA

more about sqb  <http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar>