From dick.kriesel at mail.com Tue Jul 2 04:31:13 2024 From: dick.kriesel at mail.com (Dick Kriesel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 01:31:13 -0700 Subject: Slow stack problem In-Reply-To: <548217AD-2894-465E-B903-8DC47FAA4C88@optusnet.com.au> References: <548217AD-2894-465E-B903-8DC47FAA4C88@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <07280E11-C947-41AF-9E81-0668454757C1@mail.com> > On Jun 28, 2024, at 3:15 AM, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > I have a solution or at least a workaround Hi, Neville. You may find a worthwhile improvement in speed if you avoid referring to the Unicode lines by their line numbers (as in "line k of fff"). Here's a way: function findLineNumbersInUnicode pLinesToFind, tLinesToSearch -- returns a comma-delimited list of the line numbers of lines that contain any of the lines to find local tRegExp, tLineNumber, tLineNumbers repeat for each line tLineToFind in pLinesToFind put "(^[0-9-]*\t" & tLineToFind & ")" into tRegExp put 0 into tLineNumber repeat for each line tLine in tLinesToSearch add 1 to tLineNumber if matchChunk(tLine, tRegExp) then put tLineNumber & comma after tLineNumbers end if end repeat end repeat return char 1 to -2 of tLineNumbers end findLineNumbersInUnicode If you try the idea, please share your test results. — Dick Kriesel From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Tue Jul 2 21:05:54 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 11:05:54 +1000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank Dick I will try your idea - it may need a small mod, see below. I will probably post some timings later if people are still interested in this thread. Mark’s method of converting to an array of lines to gain random access to the lines has given me at least a 50-fold increase in speed in many of my handlers (perhaps more - my analysis may have been somewhat flawed but I still have the gut feeling LineOffset -and finding line k of text- is at 50 to 100 times slower on unicode than on ascii). So this is the method I have implemented; re-factoring took a few hours but was well worth it] However there is a drawback in using arrays rather than the original text - I often need to search the text, to find the first (or next) line containing a string, and there is no built-in arrayOffset. Binary (logarithmic) search is an extremely fast search algorithm for searching the elements of an array IF the array is pre-sorted appropriately for the search item beforehand, but that doesn’t suit my use-case at all. Sorting the keys of an array according to the contents of elements is another story (combine by return, sort, split by return? Split is OK as a once-off , but it gets expensive if it needs to be done multiple times - splitting 1700 lines of sample text took about 0.1 seconds). There is however filter elements of with into tLines; put line 1 of the keys of tLines into tFoundLine And that is still very fast on unicode, even though it will find all the lines matching str, not just the first. This can be an advantage or not. [Note does need to be set up to match a whole line] I have a LineSearch algorithm alternative for lineOffset which searches for the first occurrence of a targetString in unicode text which avoids finding line endings and which is faster than using the filter method on arrays (particularly if the overhead of converting the text to an array with split by return is added). It uses the fact that matchChunk is still exceedingly fast on unicode (did someone complain that matchChunk appeared to be slow on unicode?? Who was that foolish boy? Wasn’t me Sir!). Slight drawback is you have to escape all the special regex characters in the target string before using the regex "(?m)(?i)^(.*?" & pTargetStr & ".*?)$” but replace is very fast, so this is messy but not a big deal. Big drawback is it gives the text of the line but not the line number, and so the algorithm is not adaptable to skipping lines; your version may answer that but looks like it needs the repeat loop which looks expensive. Hmm, wait, aren’t you looping on “line tLine in tLinesToSearch” which implicitly involves finding the line delimiters in the unicode text, which is back to the original problem? Neville > On 3 Jul 2024, at 2:00 am, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Slow stack problem (Dick Kriesel) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 01:31:13 -0700 > From: Dick Kriesel > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Slow stack problem > Message-ID: <07280E11-C947-41AF-9E81-0668454757C1 at mail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > >> On Jun 28, 2024, at 3:15?AM, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I have a solution or at least a workaround > > Hi, Neville. You may find a worthwhile improvement in speed if you avoid referring to the Unicode lines by their line numbers (as in "line k of fff"). > > Here's a way: > > function findLineNumbersInUnicode pLinesToFind, tLinesToSearch -- returns a comma-delimited list of the line numbers of lines that contain any of the lines to find > > local tRegExp, tLineNumber, tLineNumbers > > repeat for each line tLineToFind in pLinesToFind > > put "(^[0-9-]*\t" & tLineToFind & ")" into tRegExp > > put 0 into tLineNumber > > repeat for each line tLine in tLinesToSearch > > add 1 to tLineNumber > > if matchChunk(tLine, tRegExp) then > > put tLineNumber & comma after tLineNumbers > > end if > > end repeat > > end repeat > > return char 1 to -2 of tLineNumbers > > end findLineNumbersInUnicode > > > > If you try the idea, please share your test results. > > ? Dick Kriesel > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 > ******************************************** Neville Smythe neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au 0414517719 From curry at pair.com Wed Jul 3 08:45:23 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 08:45:23 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! Mark Smith: > My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, Resilience > is my superpower. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. Me: > What doesnt kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Heres hoping for a > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 3 13:51:06 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 13:51:06 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HAPPY TREASON DAY! On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... > Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! > > I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > > Mark Smith: > > > My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > > your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience > > is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. > > Me: > > > What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a > > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 3 18:02:05 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 22:02:05 +0000 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Merry FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY DAY! LOL! Bob S > On Jul 3, 2024, at 10:51 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: > > HAPPY TREASON DAY! > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... >> Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! >> >> I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! >> >> Mark Smith: >> >>> My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing >>> your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience >>> is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. >> >> Me: >> >>> What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. >>> Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a >>> great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Curry Kenworthy >> >> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development >> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" >> https://livecodeconsulting.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 4 01:05:12 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 01:05:12 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> References: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <65b15d21-deb9-471c-a23a-7504ade0d82f@pair.com> Again - I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > What doesnt kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Heres hoping for a > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From david.bovill at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 05:43:33 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 10:43:33 +0100 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> References: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: The results aren't out yet. Heading to the polls.... On Wed, 3 Jul 2024 at 23:03, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Merry FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY DAY! LOL! > > Bob S > > > > On Jul 3, 2024, at 10:51 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > HAPPY TREASON DAY! > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... > >> Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! > >> > >> I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > >> > >> Mark Smith: > >> > >>> My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > >>> your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience > >>> is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. > >> > >> Me: > >> > >>> What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > >>> Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a > >>> great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> Curry Kenworthy > >> > >> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > >> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > >> https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From prothero at ucsb.edu Sat Jul 6 20:50:34 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 Subject: my deployment question Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606@ucsb.edu> The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 13:38:07 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 13:38:07 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows Message-ID: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! Peter Bogdanoff From paul at researchware.com Sun Jul 7 13:58:11 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 13:58:11 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> Message-ID: <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows.  On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. > > This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. > > I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: > > For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* > For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** > > https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ > > Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? > > My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. > > Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! > > Peter Bogdanoff > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 19:56:31 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 19:56:31 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> Message-ID: <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> Thanks, Paul. So, Windows 11 shouldn’t have this issue? > On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases > > Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. > > > On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >> >> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >> >> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >> >> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >> >> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >> >> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >> >> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >> >> I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >> >> Peter Bogdanoff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Sun Jul 7 20:10:47 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> Message-ID: <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks, Paul. > > So, Windows 11 shouldnt have this issue? > > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >> >> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >> >> >> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>> >>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>> >>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>> >>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>> >>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>> >>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>> >>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>> >>> Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>> >>> Peter Bogdanoff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 20:49:22 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 20:49:22 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> Message-ID: <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> OK thanks. Many of our users are college undergrads, some of which appear to have never installed an application on their own computer. Now I have to get them to do a second installation as well. By any chance, can I get my LC application to initiate the LAV filters install? > On Jul 7, 2024, at 8:10 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. > > > On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> Thanks, Paul. >> >> So, Windows 11 shouldn’t have this issue? >> >> >> >>> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >>> >>> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >>> >>> >>> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>>> >>>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>>> >>>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>>> >>>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>>> >>>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>>> >>>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>>> >>>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>>> >>>> I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>>> >>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Mon Jul 8 04:08:08 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 04:08:08 -0400 Subject: Problem with hierarchical menu Message-ID: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have a pulldown menu button with a hierarchical menu on 4 levels. Level 1 features 35 options, and each option can have submenus on 1, 2 or 3 sub-levels. On Mac everything works fine : users can navigate through all options and sub-options with the mouse down like in any menu. But on Windows 10 & 11, at times when the cursor moves back from level 3 to 2, or 2 to 1 for instance, the whole menu gets stalled, and users need to release the mouse and pulldown the menu again. Any idea of what can cause this problem and what I should check ? Thank you in advance. jbv From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 8 07:47:23 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 07:47:23 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> Message-ID: <69c46f0c-9903-4402-a8cc-69cc019d1c06@researchware.com> There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it as a bnfile to the install location. I don't know whether there are any Livecode lessons on the web site on how to do this or not or whether someone else who has done this may have code or tips to share. First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. Livecode 10, before release, is supposed to get updated to use the Windows Media Foundation (and it's wide range of current codec for various media formats). This change (DirectShow to MMF) is not in the current (dp8) version. So a media coded pack (like LAV Filters) for DirectShow is your only option under there is a version of LC 10 that supports MMF. If you set the way back machine, if you wanted to do media on Windows under old versions of Livecode (aka Revolution), you had to install Quicktime for Windows. On 7/7/2024 8:49 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > OK thanks. > > Many of our users are college undergrads, some of which appear to have never installed an application on their own computer. Now I have to get them to do a second installation as well. > > By any chance, can I get my LC application to initiate the LAV filters install? > > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 8:10 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. >> >> >> On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> Thanks, Paul. >>> >>> So, Windows 11 shouldnt have this issue? >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >>>> >>>> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>>>> >>>>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>>>> >>>>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>>>> >>>>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>>>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>>>> >>>>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>>>> >>>>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>>>> >>>>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>>>> >>>>> Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>>>> >>>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From raymondjbennett at icloud.com Mon Jul 8 09:00:43 2024 From: raymondjbennett at icloud.com (Raymond Bennett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 09:00:43 -0400 Subject: my deployment question (William Prothero) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - I don't have time to collect the details at the moment, but here's what I've found: I found the necessary info for deploying to the devices themselves (iPhone, iPad) for test in the Apple documentation. The key - as best I recall - has to do with setting up the provisioning profile on the device. Doing that took me through all of the necessary steps to get it working in concert with LiveCode. Caveat - all of my experience is deploying from a Mac to those devices. Good luck. > On Jul 7, 2024, at 12:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. my deployment question (William Prothero) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 > From: William Prothero > To: JJS use-livecode > Subject: my deployment question > Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606 at ucsb.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. > Best, > Bill > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 4 > ******************************************** From prothero at ucsb.edu Mon Jul 8 11:25:26 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 08:25:26 -0700 Subject: my deployment question (William Prothero) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks.. For some reason, xcode 15.0 didn't install correctly over older versions and I'm investigating why. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 8, 2024, at 6:02 AM, Raymond Bennett via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi William - I don't have time to collect the details at the moment, but here's what I've found: > > I found the necessary info for deploying to the devices themselves (iPhone, iPad) for test in the Apple documentation. The key - as best I recall - has to do with setting up the provisioning profile on the device. Doing that took me through all of the necessary steps to get it working in concert with LiveCode. > > Caveat - all of my experience is deploying from a Mac to those devices. > > Good luck. > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 12:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." >> >> >> you can find the archives for this list at: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ >> >> and search them using this link: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. my deployment question (William Prothero) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 >> From: William Prothero >> To: JJS use-livecode >> Subject: my deployment question >> Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606 at ucsb.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. >> Best, >> Bill >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 4 >> ******************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 8 13:28:12 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 17:28:12 +0000 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows Message-ID: Paul Dupuis wrote: > There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library > or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and > have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file > ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and > if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it > as a bnfile to the install location. ... > First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see > if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. LAV Filters appear to be distributed under GPL v2: https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/blob/master/COPYING This invites an interesting exploration of the boundaries of GPL rights/responsibilities inheritance: does distributing GPL components within an app require the app distributing them to also be GPL? I've seen many cases the other way around, FOSS projects like Ubuntu where some users can benefit from prioprietary packages like NVidia device drivers. Ubuntu and others seem content to have resolved the issue by not including components with incompatible licenses in their distributions, instead providing links the user may choose to follow to install them. But the case in this thread is the inverse, a proprietary system with embedded distribution of Free and Open Source components. I haven't seen this before, so I did a quick search to see how others have handled it. Here are a few of those discussions: "Is it legal to use GPL code in a proprietary, closed-source program by putting it in a separate, standalone program?" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/7078/is-it-legal-to-use-gpl-code-in-a-proprietary-closed-source-program-by-putting-i "Distributing a proprietary application together with GPL software " https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/211250/distributing-a-proprietary-application-together-with-gpl-software "Can I use GPL software in a commercial application" https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/47032/can-i-use-gpl-software-in-a-commercial-application "Can I use GPL, LGPL, MPL licensed packages with my application and make it closed source?" https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/125606/can-i-use-gpl-lgpl-mpl-licensed-packages-with-my-application-and-make-it-close "Proprietary software using GPL modules" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1459/proprietary-software-using-gpl-modules "Can I use GPL libraries in a closed source project if only the output is distributed?" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/2338/can-i-use-gpl-libraries-in-a-closed-source-project-if-only-the-output-is-distrib Spoiler: no one in those discussions has a definitive answer, but there is a general trend toward USING GPL components being viewed as okay but drawing the line at DISTRIBUTING those GPL components within a proprietary app. And given both the rarity and the subtlety of details in such circumstancs, even the GPL FAQ more or less punts on this question: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#ManyDifferentLicenses Of course I'm not an attorney, and even if I were I'm not contracted as your attorney, so nothing I write can be construed as legal advice. But as someone who has a personal hobby of reading IP case law, and has contractual requirements in most of my professional work to demonstrate a reasonable good-faith effort to help my clients avoid potential risks with IP licensing, I tend to err on the side of "When in doubt, leave it out." In cases where the best way to handle someone else's work is unclear, I often find it most useful to get clarification from the author of the work. As the copyright holder, they would be in a position to grant, or deny, specific use cases. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 8 13:43:53 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:43:53 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As customers once had to download and install Quicktime for Windows to use a wide variety of media in Revolution/Livecode Standalones under Windows (XP, 7, 8.x, 10, 11), when QT for Win became obsolete, we just switched to directing customers to download and install LAV Filters instead. They do this as a separate install, done by the end user. So far, this has not seemed to be an issue or inhibited adoption. It also does not run afoul of any licensing issues with embedding LAV Filters in a LC standalone. Regardless, if you want media file parity with macOS on Windows in Livecode and do not want to wait for whatever dp version of LC 10 might have MMF in it, then you need to add a codec pack for DirectShow. There are other options for additional DirectShow codecs to LAV Filters. I can't recall any of them - just that we reviewed a bunch, most of which were commercial and required licensing. LAV Filters was reliable, functional, easy to install, and free. I'm not endorsing it for your application or anyone else's, just noting what worked for us. On 7/8/2024 1:28 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > Paul Dupuis wrote: > >> There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library >> or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and >> have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file >> ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and >> if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it >> as a bnfile to the install location. > ... >> First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see >> if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. > > LAV Filters appear to be distributed under GPL v2: > https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/blob/master/COPYING > > This invites an interesting exploration of the boundaries of GPL rights/responsibilities inheritance: does distributing GPL components within an app require the app distributing them to also be GPL? > > > I've seen many cases the other way around, FOSS projects like Ubuntu where some users can benefit from prioprietary packages like NVidia device drivers. Ubuntu and others seem content to have resolved the issue by not including components with incompatible licenses in their distributions, instead providing links the user may choose to follow to install them. > > But the case in this thread is the inverse, a proprietary system with embedded distribution of Free and Open Source components. I haven't seen this before, so I did a quick search to see how others have handled it. Here are a few of those discussions: > > "Is it legal to use GPL code in a proprietary, closed-source program by putting it in a separate, standalone program?" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/7078/is-it-legal-to-use-gpl-code-in-a-proprietary-closed-source-program-by-putting-i > > "Distributing a proprietary application together with GPL software" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/211250/distributing-a-proprietary-application-together-with-gpl-software > > "Can I use GPL software in a commercial application" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/47032/can-i-use-gpl-software-in-a-commercial-application > > "Can I use GPL, LGPL, MPL licensed packages with my application and make it closed source?" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/125606/can-i-use-gpl-lgpl-mpl-licensed-packages-with-my-application-and-make-it-close > > "Proprietary software using GPL modules" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1459/proprietary-software-using-gpl-modules > > "Can I use GPL libraries in a closed source project if only the output is distributed?" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/2338/can-i-use-gpl-libraries-in-a-closed-source-project-if-only-the-output-is-distrib > > > Spoiler: no one in those discussions has a definitive answer, but there is a general trend toward USING GPL components being viewed as okay but drawing the line at DISTRIBUTING those GPL components within a proprietary app. > > And given both the rarity and the subtlety of details in such circumstancs, even the GPL FAQ more or less punts on this question: > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#ManyDifferentLicenses > > > Of course I'm not an attorney, and even if I were I'm not contracted as your attorney, so nothing I write can be construed as legal advice. > > But as someone who has a personal hobby of reading IP case law, and has contractual requirements in most of my professional work to demonstrate a reasonable good-faith effort to help my clients avoid potential risks with IP licensing, I tend to err on the side of "When in doubt, leave it out." > > In cases where the best way to handle someone else's work is unclear, I often find it most useful to get clarification from the author of the work. As the copyright holder, they would be in a position to grant, or deny, specific use cases. > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dan at clearvisiontech.com Tue Jul 9 13:13:15 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:13:15 +0000 Subject: Google Play Billing Library Version In-Reply-To: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> References: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Greetings! I have an app in the Google Play Store, and I recently got a message from Google Play that says my app is not using the correct Billing Library and I need to update my app to include Billing Library version 6 or newer. I built the app with LC 10 (dp-6). Is there a version of LC that is compatible with requirement? Or, how do I tell which versions of LC include which component versions? -Dan From merakosp at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 14:20:27 2024 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:20:27 +0300 Subject: Google Play Billing Library Version In-Reply-To: References: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Hello Dan, The current most recent versions of livecode use Google's billing library v5.x. Support for v6 of the library will be added in the next release, along with support for building against API 34. Both of them are new requirements for app submission to the Google Play Store, and the deadline is the 31st of August. So you should expect the next version of LiveCode before then ;) Kind Regards, Panos On Tue, 9 Jul 2024, 20:14 Dan Friedman via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Greetings! I have an app in the Google Play Store, and I recently got a > message from Google Play that says my app is not using the correct Billing > Library and I need to update my app to include Billing Library version 6 or > newer. I built the app with LC 10 (dp-6). Is there a version of LC that > is compatible with requirement? Or, how do I tell which versions of LC > include which component versions? > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 12 21:05:31 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 21:05:31 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 Message-ID: Heyall, I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 Methodology is explained in github page. It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the generation. Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. If anyone wants to follow the project, Or help out in testing and correcting. websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the handlers. The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons of time already. It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. I think its a good starting point. Testing will start soon enough. I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, there is some kind of hope. My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode Enjoy. Tom . From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 13 12:20:38 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:20:38 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: cool On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Heyall, > > I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. > So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 > > Methodology is explained in github page. > It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the > generation. > Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. > > Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. > But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. > If anyone wants to follow the project, > Or help out in testing and correcting. > > websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the handlers. > The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons of > time already. > It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. > I think its a good starting point. > > Testing will start soon enough. > I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, > there is some kind of hope. > My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example > streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. > > https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode > > Enjoy. > > Tom > . > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From panos.merakos at livecode.com Mon Jul 15 12:19:03 2024 From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 19:19:03 +0300 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 Message-ID: Dear list members, We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1 comes with 11 bugfixes and performance improvements, including support for building against API 34 on Android, and a new version of Google's in-app billing library used for in-app purchase. Both of these changes are required for new app submissions to the Google Play Store after the 31st of August 2024. Moreover, The CEF browser version has been updated on Windows. You can find more details on the bug fixes and improvements of this new release here: https://livecode.com/livecode-9-6-13-rc-1-google-play-store-and-cef-updates/ You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get it via the automatic updater. Enjoy! Kind regards The LiveCode Team -- From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 15 15:18:11 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 19:18:11 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 Message-ID: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Panos wrote: > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. ... > You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get > it via the automatic updater. Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Mon Jul 15 16:31:27 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 22:31:27 +0200 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> I found the link here https://livecode.com/account/products/livecode and then in the dropdown menu in the second section where the RC builds are listed. See a screenshot here https://livecode.dermattes.de/images/9_6_13_rc1.jpg Regards, Matthias > Am 15.07.2024 um 21:18 schrieb Richard Gaskin via use-livecode : > > Panos wrote: > >> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > ... >> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >> it via the automatic updater. > > Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. > > I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 16:48:40 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 20:48:40 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <6AB502CB-92CB-47EC-986E-FB663A8CB23E@iotecdigital.com> You can also get it from the Check For Updates menu option of the Help menu in LC. Bob S > On Jul 15, 2024, at 1:31 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > I found the link here > https://livecode.com/account/products/livecode > > and then in the dropdown menu in the second section where the RC builds are listed. > > See a screenshot here > https://livecode.dermattes.de/images/9_6_13_rc1.jpg > > Regards, > Matthias > > > >> Am 15.07.2024 um 21:18 schrieb Richard Gaskin via use-livecode : >> >> Panos wrote: >> >>> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. >> ... >>> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >>> it via the automatic updater. >> >> Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. >> >> I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? >> >> -- >> Richard Gaskin >> FourthWorld.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 18:47:47 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 22:47:47 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function Message-ID: I got ahold of a function someone wrote years ago called fwGestalt(). It looks to provide information about the current application it belongs to in a report. However it is calling a function called Bytes2Size() which apparently converts hard drive space from bytes to actual free space. Does anyone have the byte2Size() function? Bob S From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 15 19:07:49 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:07:49 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function Message-ID: Bob Sneidar wrote: > I got ahold of a function someone wrote years ago called fwGestalt(). It looks to > provide information about the current application it belongs to in a report. > However it is calling a function called Bytes2Size() which apparently converts > hard drive space from bytes to actual free space. Does anyone have the byte2Size() > function? That was me (I use the "fw" prefix to distinguish "Fourth World" library stuff). Here ya' go: function Bytes2Size n set the numberformat to "0.#" if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n else put n / 1024 into n if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n else put n / 1024 &" MB" into n end if end if return n end Bytes2Size Things have changed since I wrote that. Might be good to update all the way up to TB. Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 19:24:12 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:24:12 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Thanks Richard. Bob S On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: function Bytes2Size n set the numberformat to "0.#" if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n else put n / 1024 into n if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n else put n / 1024 &" MB" into n end if end if return n end Bytes2Size From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 19:26:28 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:26:28 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <4F299FEC-527C-40A5-8805-1F83FCFA4A26@iotecdigital.com> Spell Correction: Avilable disk space: 454737.3 MB Bob S > On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:24 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > Thanks Richard. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: >> >> function Bytes2Size n >> set the numberformat to "0.#" >> if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n >> else >> put n / 1024 into n >> if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n >> else >> put n / 1024 &" MB" into n >> end if >> end if >> return n >> end Bytes2Size > > From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 15 21:01:32 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 21:01:32 -0400 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: With due credit to Richard for the original, you might want to update it for today's disk sizes, This adds GB and TB function Bytes2Size n   set the numberformat to "0.#"   if n < 1024 then     put n &" bytes" into n   else     put n / 1024 into n     if n < 1024 then       put n &" KB" into n     else       put n / 1024 into n       if n < 1024 then         put n &" MB" into n       else         put n / 1024 into n         if n < 1024 then           put n &" GB" into n         else           put n / 1024 &" TB" into n         end if       end if     end if   end if   return n end Bytes2Size On 7/15/2024 7:24 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks Richard. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > > function Bytes2Size n > set the numberformat to "0.#" > if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n > else > put n / 1024 into n > if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n > else > put n / 1024 &" MB" into n > end if > end if > return n > end Bytes2Size > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Tue Jul 16 09:48:01 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:48:01 +0100 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <237D13B0-E938-42A2-85F4-2180D8F00F97@livecode.com> https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4072/l/1123259-how-do-i-download-a-test-release Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 15 Jul 2024, at 20:18, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > > Panos wrote: > >> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > ... >> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >> it via the automatic updater. > > Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. > > I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Tue Jul 16 11:02:06 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:02:06 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <98E2DD4A-3256-41AC-ACB7-72AD11DDE6CC@iotecdigital.com> Wonderful, thanks all. Bob S On Jul 15, 2024, at 6:01 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: With due credit to Richard for the original, you might want to update it for today's disk sizes, This adds GB and TB From dan at clearvisiontech.com Tue Jul 16 11:06:30 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:06:30 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: // We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. This is certainly great news! Is there a parallel version for LC 10 coming? I have a number of projects that I have been using 10.0.0 (dp-8). Is LC 10 being abandoned? If so (or even if not), it feels like 9.6.X seems to be the LC’s preferred version? Can I take a project built in 10 and move it to 9 without worry? What’s in 10 that’s not in 9?? Thanks in advance, Dan From heather at livecode.com Tue Jul 16 11:17:35 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 16:17:35 +0100 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA4EA51-DD70-4137-A784-DF83C407E090@livecode.com> The equivalent 10 test release is coming shortly. Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 16 Jul 2024, at 16:06, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote: > > // We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > > This is certainly great news! Is there a parallel version for LC 10 coming? I have a number of projects that I have been using 10.0.0 (dp-8). Is LC 10 being abandoned? If so (or even if not), it feels like 9.6.X seems to be the LC’s preferred version? Can I take a project built in 10 and move it to 9 without worry? What’s in 10 that’s not in 9?? > > Thanks in advance, > Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Tue Jul 16 12:04:26 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 17:04:26 +0100 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. Message-ID: I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) Help please. Thanks Alex. From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Jul 16 12:31:17 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:31:17 +0200 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> Alex, log into your Livecode account. Then on the left side select Products and then Thirdparty. There you should find a download link to the current version. Open it in LC and press Install and it will override/update your files. Regards, Matthias Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 16.07.2024 um 18:05 schrieb Alex Tweedly via use-livecode : > >  > I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. > > But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) > > Help please. > > Thanks > > Alex. > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Tue Jul 16 14:22:36 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:22:36 +0100 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. In-Reply-To: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> References: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Thank you. Was easy, and has indeed fixed my reported problem. Alex Sent from my iPhone > On 16 Jul 2024, at 17:32, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Alex, > > log into your Livecode account. Then on the left side select Products and then Thirdparty. There you should find a download link to the current version. > Open it in LC and press Install and it will override/update your files. > > Regards, > Matthias > > Von meinem iPad gesendet > >> Am 16.07.2024 um 18:05 schrieb Alex Tweedly via use-livecode : >> >>  >> I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. >> >> But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) >> >> Help please. >> >> Thanks >> >> Alex. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Tue Jul 16 15:20:49 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:20:49 +0000 Subject: [ANN] A new version of TinyDictionary Message-ID: A new version of TinyDictionary has been uploaded to Livecodeshare https://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/825/TinyDictionary or download it from within the IDE from "Sample Stacks" Kind regards Bernd From cszasz at mac.com Thu Jul 18 09:53:38 2024 From: cszasz at mac.com (Charles Szasz) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 07:53:38 -0600 Subject: Encrypted text files Message-ID: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. Sent from my iPad From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 18 11:09:04 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:09:04 +0000 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> Message-ID: <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your biggest text files be? Bob S > On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode wrote: > > Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 18 11:10:15 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:10:15 +0000 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> Also be sure to write and read binary. Bob S > On Jul 18, 2024, at 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your biggest text files be? > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 19 10:38:15 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:38:15 -0400 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: function Encrypt_This pEncryptWhat,pKey,pSalt,pCipher local tEncryptedResult if pCipher = "" then encrypt pEncryptWhat using "aes256" with password pKey and salt pSalt else encrypt pEncryptWhat using pCipher with password pKey and salt pSalt end if return it end Encrypt_This function Decrypt_This pDecryptWhat,pKey,pSalt,pCipher local tDecryptResult put it try if pCipher = "" then decrypt pDecryptWhat using "aes256" with password pKey and salt pSalt else decrypt pDecryptWhat using pCipher with password pKey and salt pSalt end if catch tError put tError end try put the result into tDecryptResult if the result contains "Error" then put the result into tDecryptResult["error"] else put "ok" into tDecryptResult["result"] put it into tDecryptResult["data"] end if return tDecryptResult end Decrypt_This On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:11 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Also be sure to write and read binary. > > Bob S > > > > On Jul 18, 2024, at 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar > wrote: > > > > I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the > dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your > biggest text files be? > > > > Bob S > > > > > >> On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an > app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 19 10:52:57 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:52:57 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: see the issue i posted on the repo On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 12:20 PM Mike Kerner wrote: > cool > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Heyall, >> >> I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. >> So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 >> >> Methodology is explained in github page. >> It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the >> generation. >> Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. >> >> Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. >> But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. >> If anyone wants to follow the project, >> Or help out in testing and correcting. >> >> websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the >> handlers. >> The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons >> of >> time already. >> It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. >> I think its a good starting point. >> >> Testing will start soon enough. >> I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, >> there is some kind of hope. >> My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example >> streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. >> >> https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode >> >> Enjoy. >> >> Tom >> . >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 19 19:35:41 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 19:35:41 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 10-4 On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 10:54 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > see the issue i posted on the repo > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 12:20 PM Mike Kerner > wrote: > > > cool > > > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> Heyall, > >> > >> I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real > project. > >> So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 > >> > >> Methodology is explained in github page. > >> It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from > the > >> generation. > >> Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. > >> > >> Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. > >> But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. > >> If anyone wants to follow the project, > >> Or help out in testing and correcting. > >> > >> websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the > >> handlers. > >> The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons > >> of > >> time already. > >> It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. > >> I think its a good starting point. > >> > >> Testing will start soon enough. > >> I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, > >> there is some kind of hope. > >> My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example > >> streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. > >> > >> https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode > >> > >> Enjoy. > >> > >> Tom > >> . > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 09:10:56 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:10:56 -0400 Subject: crop image Message-ID: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have the following script : create image put number of imgs into ni add 1 to Nflds put id of img ni into tid put imageData of img From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 09:23:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:23:11 -0400 Subject: crop image Message-ID: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have the following script : create image put number of imgs into ni put id of img ni into tid set filename of img id tid to myFile put imageData of img id tid into pimage -- many lines for imagedata analysis crop image id tid to rect trect I get this error : crop: object is not an image However, when replacing the "crop..." line with select img id tid it works, the image is visible and selected, which means the image has been created. It is as if "crop" doesn't work for images created in the same script. I have tried with an image created before running the script, and it works. I also tried a workaround with "export snapshot" = it works, also the snapshot features the portion of the card behind the image, as if the image doesn't exist... Any idea ? I am using LC 9.6.9 on Mac 10.15. Thank you in advance. jbv From craig at starfirelighting.com Tue Jul 23 09:33:08 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:33:08 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> Hi. You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; put number of imgs into ni add 1 to Nflds put id of img ni into tid put imageData of img ni but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? Craig > On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi list, > > I have the following script : > > create image > put number of imgs into ni > add 1 to Nflds > put id of img ni into tid > put imageData of img > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Tue Jul 23 10:46:25 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:46:25 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i'd like to learn more about how you did this. i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable LC code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). From bogdanoff at me.com Tue Jul 23 11:59:53 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 11:59:53 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> Message-ID: <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> You use the “last” keyword, ie the highest numbered one: the last image Peter Bogdanoff > On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:33 AM, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi. > > You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; > > put number of imgs into ni > > add 1 to Nflds > > put id of img ni into tid > > put imageData of img ni > > > > but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? > > > > Craig > > >> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi list, >> >> I have the following script : >> >> create image >> put number of imgs into ni >> add 1 to Nflds >> put id of img ni into tid >> put imageData of img >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From craig at starfirelighting.com Tue Jul 23 12:08:48 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:08:48 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> Message-ID: Peter is correct in that you could: "put the imageData of last image into wherever” as opposed to finding the number of that image directly and using that info to do stuff. Be aware that the “last” keyword, though invaluable, is not stable when referring to groups. Craig > On Jul 23, 2024, at 11:59 AM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > You use the “last” keyword, ie the highest numbered one: > the last image > > > Peter Bogdanoff > > >> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:33 AM, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi. >> >> You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; >> >> put number of imgs into ni >> >> add 1 to Nflds >> >> put id of img ni into tid >> >> put imageData of img ni >> >> >> >> but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >>> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi list, >>> >>> I have the following script : >>> >>> create image >>> put number of imgs into ni >>> add 1 to Nflds >>> put id of img ni into tid >>> put imageData of img >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 12:29:28 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:29:28 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> Message-ID: <4476d4a5425c520ca0a9744c37f8a043@souslelogo.com> Please check mu second post on the same topic. For the first one, I pressed "send" by mistake before finishing to write it. Thanks. From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 23 18:32:01 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 18:32:01 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Hello All, I'll start. After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. I feel very positive about this change. Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... Then I want to be in full support of this model. I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was explained. Great job on that. I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to align their business model or to get off the platform. I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the future of my company MakeShyft. I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this at all. All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. Tom From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 23 19:29:46 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 19:29:46 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mike, I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from nothing the performance will be significantly worse. Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the source code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for the standard. And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess when I got to testing it On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable LC > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From htorrado at networkdreams.net Tue Jul 23 20:00:24 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 20:00:24 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Hi Tom, It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company usesuch as for a workforce of 100 employeeswould still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. Hery On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > Hello All, > > I'll start. > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > I feel very positive about this change. > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > explained. Great job on that. > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > align their business model or to get off the platform. > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > future of my company MakeShyft. > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this > at all. > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 03:59:07 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:59:07 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tom, Thanks for the feedback. We really appreciate it. I'm glad you think the communication was done well, these things are never easy to communicate and we worked really hard at that. We're very optimistic that these changes will give us the capacity to move a lot faster which is going to be great for us all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 23/07/2024, 23:32, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hello All, I'll start. After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. I feel very positive about this change. Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... Then I want to be in full support of this model. I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was explained. Great job on that. I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to align their business model or to get off the platform. I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the future of my company MakeShyft. I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this at all. All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. Tom _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 04:01:13 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:01:13 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Heriberto, Thanks for taking the time to post. If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more closely. Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here many times over. There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days which will help to better illustrate this comparison. With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, or at any point before 2027. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Tom, It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. Hery On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > Hello All, > > I'll start. > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > I feel very positive about this change. > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > explained. Great job on that. > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > align their business model or to get off the platform. > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > future of my company MakeShyft. > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this > at all. > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 04:17:04 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Col Kelly) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:17:04 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. Col. Sent from my iPhone. > On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. > > Hery > >> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> I'll start. >> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >> I feel very positive about this change. >> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >> >> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >> explained. Great job on that. >> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >> align their business model or to get off the platform. >> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >> >> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >> future of my company MakeShyft. >> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >> at all. >> >> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >> >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 04:46:36 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:46:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get while trying to read the most recent post on the site? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > many times over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, > or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > web site. > > > Hery > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I'll start. > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > I feel very positive about this change. > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > dev, > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > reasonable. > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > > explained. Great job on that. > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > this > > at all. > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > Tom > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 04:58:53 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:58:53 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> You should have received an email from us, I'll send the link offline. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 09:46, "use-livecode on behalf of David Bovill via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get while trying to read the most recent post on the site? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > many times over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, > or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > web site. > > > Hery > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I'll start. > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > I feel very positive about this change. > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > dev, > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > reasonable. > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > > explained. Great job on that. > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > this > > at all. > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > Tom > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 05:00:45 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:00:45 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> Message-ID: Many thanks - a short blog post linking to “the future” might help with those of us not following home page? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:59, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > You should have received an email from us, I'll send the link offline. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 09:46, "use-livecode on behalf of David Bovill via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view > it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get > while trying to read the most recent post on the site? > > > On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > Hi Heriberto, > > > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by > your > > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > > closely. > > > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming > you > > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. > Any > > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. > So > > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what > they > > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? > I > > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they > are > > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > > many times over. > > > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps > out > > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, > getting > > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user > base. > > > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that > now, > > or at any point before 2027. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > > web site. > > > > > > Hery > > > > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > > > > I'll start. > > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > > I feel very positive about this change. > > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > > dev, > > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > > reasonable. > > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction > was > > > explained. Great job on that. > > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for > the > > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > > this > > > at all. > > > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > > > Tom > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 05:03:11 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:03:11 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. Col. Sent from my iPhone. > On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. > > Hery > >> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> I'll start. >> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >> I feel very positive about this change. >> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >> >> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >> explained. Great job on that. >> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >> align their business model or to get off the platform. >> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >> >> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >> future of my company MakeShyft. >> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >> at all. >> >> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >> >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Wed Jul 24 06:14:44 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Tweedly) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:14:44 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> References: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> Can you say anything about the future of LiveCode Server ? Thanks, Alex Sent from my iPad > On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:03, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. > > I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. > I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. > > > Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. > > > Col. > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. >> >> Hery >> >>>> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I'll start. >>> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >>> I feel very positive about this change. >>> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >>> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >>> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >>> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >>> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >>> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >>> >>> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >>> explained. Great job on that. >>> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >>> align their business model or to get off the platform. >>> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >>> >>> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >>> future of my company MakeShyft. >>> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >>> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >>> at all. >>> >>> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >>> >>> Tom >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From smk at anvic.net Wed Jul 24 06:22:51 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:22:51 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: One feature of the present commercial licensing is that I decide the terms and conditions that apply to any application I build. What happens under the new licensing if I build an application either for sale or for a client and then some time in the future the application is duplicated, distributed and used without my permission or even knowledge? Does RunRev chase me, the purchaser or both of us for breach of their license conditions? best wishes Simon From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 06:30:31 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:30:31 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: Well in practical terms if you don't know about it it's even harder for us to know. These sorts of things do happen but only occasionally so I don't spend too much time worrying about it. Obviously a sensible conversation would need to be had if it was discovered, most of which we would expect to be between you and your customer. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 11:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Simon Knight via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: One feature of the present commercial licensing is that I decide the terms and conditions that apply to any application I build. What happens under the new licensing if I build an application either for sale or for a client and then some time in the future the application is duplicated, distributed and used without my permission or even knowledge? Does RunRev chase me, the purchaser or both of us for breach of their license conditions? best wishes Simon _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From selander at tkf.att.ne.jp Wed Jul 24 06:51:13 2024 From: selander at tkf.att.ne.jp (Tim Selander) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:51:13 +0900 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> References: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander On 2024/07/24 19:14, Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > Can you say anything about the future of LiveCode Server ? > > Thanks, > Alex > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:03, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. >> >> I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> >> Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. >> I guess Im going to be forced down the PowerApps route. >> >> >> Slightly annoyed that ive subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. >> >> >> Col. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> >>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>> It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company usesuch as for a workforce of 100 employeeswould still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. >>> >>> Hery >>> >>>>> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I'll start. >>>> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >>>> I feel very positive about this change. >>>> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >>>> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >>>> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >>>> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >>>> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >>>> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >>>> >>>> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >>>> explained. Great job on that. >>>> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >>>> align their business model or to get off the platform. >>>> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >>>> >>>> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >>>> future of my company MakeShyft. >>>> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >>>> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >>>> at all. >>>> >>>> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Jul 24 06:55:05 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:55:05 +0200 Subject: @Kevin - some questions about GDRP and what exactly happens with the Lifetime Commercial (all current and future platforms) licenses Message-ID: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Dear Kevin, I am asking this here, as I am sure there a many who are also having the same or similar questions. As i correctly understand, then the product "Livecode Internal Apps" tracks the number of users. What information is collected and where is it stored? Are those servers located in the US or EU? Does it comply with GDRP? Does the new cloud solution in general comply with GDRP? What exactly happens to Livecode Server? What exactly happens with the Commercial Lifetime licenses from Kickstarter, which included current and all future platforms? Will they, even not maintained, at least still work after 2027? Or will they be disabled? Although I had such a license I also had a subscription for a Business license, although I really did not need that Business features. It was more a support to LC, because Lifetime licenses does not bring any money. I even funded most of your "projects", starting with On-Rev Server and revMobile. I evend "funded" the ScriptCompiler, although I was sure, that I do not really need it. My personal situation is the following. I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. I would not have a problem with paying for a developer license + the 5% fee for my sales, although I do not earn much money with it. I even would also not have a problem with it to purchase also a Internal Apps Developer license. But over the years I've created many Internal Apps and LC server scripts. A large number of them is still maintained. Some of them run scheduled and unattended on a server. Some of them are used by about 10 or 12 users. Those are not big apps, just simple helper tools. One tool for example is run every time the user sends an email from the ERP. It uses pdftk server and Ghostscrip in the background to manipulate PDF files before they are sent out by email to customers. According to the new pricing we would have to pay at least 4356 /year (1 dev + 10 users to use this tool. That is definitely a knockout criterion. I would understand to pay this when using the new features of the new product, but not for maintaining/bugfixing and even for creating simple apps without the need of AI, Cloud and whatever extraordinary feature/functions the new product comes with... Regards, Matthias From smilingeyes at mac.com Wed Jul 24 07:54:59 2024 From: smilingeyes at mac.com (Raymond Bennett) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 07:54:59 -0400 Subject: [Virus Error] Livecode Future - LC Server and Web licensing Message-ID: Kevin and Co. - Thanks as always for all you've done and continue to do. Livecode Server didn't get mentioned (that I saw) in this announcement. My assumption is LC Server will continue. If that's true, then that brings me to the question of licensing for web deployments. If the application does it's work via the web - e.g. an app like the Meetingspace app from the 2022 conference - what is the license model for that? Thank you. Ray Bennett From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 08:12:41 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:12:41 +0100 Subject: @Kevin - some questions about GDRP and what exactly happens with the Lifetime Commercial (all current and future platforms) licenses In-Reply-To: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <775735C2-6E79-46B7-95B0-BC676832F577@livecode.com> Hi Matthias, Thanks for your questions. Tracking users - yes we will track and collect this information. You will be able to see it in a user portal too. While we don’t yet offer it, you will soon have a choice of data centre. We are GDPR compliant. We will also offer a contract for a specific number of users without tracking for those of you that have more sensitive apps. The cloud solution in general will comply with GDPR yes. I have outlined in a specific video our policy on lifetime licenses, its on the page near the bottom for those of you that had those licenses (you will have received a different email to the others with a different link). I’m glad to hear that the developer license + application payments works for your commercial app. Your specific use of LiveCode Server on its own is an interesting question. I did speak to several dozen customers personally prior to making this change (including you!) and it was not a question that really came up in any major way. Obviously in the case of application payments it's just part of that model. However the use you have here seems like a bit of an edge case. Clearly there is value in our server platform but perhaps not as much as when you’re using our full tech stack with GUI delivery (or the new Cloud features) etc. I’m going to take this offline and ask you a number of questions about this so we can figure out something sensible. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 11:55, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Dear Kevin, I am asking this here, as I am sure there a many who are also having the same or similar questions. As i correctly understand, then the product "Livecode Internal Apps" tracks the number of users. What information is collected and where is it stored? Are those servers located in the US or EU? Does it comply with GDRP? Does the new cloud solution in general comply with GDRP? What exactly happens to Livecode Server? What exactly happens with the Commercial Lifetime licenses from Kickstarter, which included current and all future platforms? Will they, even not maintained, at least still work after 2027? Or will they be disabled? Although I had such a license I also had a subscription for a Business license, although I really did not need that Business features. It was more a support to LC, because Lifetime licenses does not bring any money. I even funded most of your "projects", starting with On-Rev Server and revMobile. I evend "funded" the ScriptCompiler, although I was sure, that I do not really need it. My personal situation is the following. I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. I would not have a problem with paying for a developer license + the 5% fee for my sales, although I do not earn much money with it. I even would also not have a problem with it to purchase also a Internal Apps Developer license. But over the years I've created many Internal Apps and LC server scripts. A large number of them is still maintained. Some of them run scheduled and unattended on a server. Some of them are used by about 10 or 12 users. Those are not big apps, just simple helper tools. One tool for example is run every time the user sends an email from the ERP. It uses pdftk server and Ghostscrip in the background to manipulate PDF files before they are sent out by email to customers. According to the new pricing we would have to pay at least 4356 /year (1 dev + 10 users to use this tool. That is definitely a knockout criterion. I would understand to pay this when using the new features of the new product, but not for maintaining/bugfixing and even for creating simple apps without the need of AI, Cloud and whatever extraordinary feature/functions the new product comes with... Regards, Matthias _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 24 08:28:08 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:28:08 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: so, for you, the trick was: * claude (opus) * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did that) * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc anything else? On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hey Mike, > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from nothing > the performance will be significantly worse. > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the source > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for the > standard. > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess when I > got to testing it > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable > LC > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 24 08:29:33 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:29:33 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kevin You mentioned a difference between having classic, web based and universal. How does that reflect in the pricing as there only seems to be the option for two models, internal and external apps. Does a ‘seat’ cover use for all the platforms? This will also have a great impact on ‘value’, I’m sure. Sean Cole Still developing for one LC subscriber but in LC5.0.2 having been forced out of actual business by the non-delivery of LC10 into stable and most features invested into not arriving as promised along. Baffled by the fact LCLtd are giving people only 1mth to ‘decide’ (like that makes it an actual ‘decision’; it’s more like being held at gunpoint as LCLtd are killing “classic”) and fund into yet another DP (!!) that may not ever see the ‘Stable’, much like LC10 which hasn’t seen an update since Apr’23. It’s a bit ‘cheeky’, you cheeky chappies 😜😛😜 you. 😅 Good job glossing over this 😚😉 From General.2018 at outlook.com Wed Jul 24 08:49:29 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:49:29 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID:  Hi Kevin, I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. Is that the understanding ? Regards Camm On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 08:58:02 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:58:02 +0100 Subject: [Virus Error] Livecode Future - LC Server and Web licensing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Server will continue yes. The majority of web deployments will be things that aren't classified as commercial in our model. However if you're building a web platform for paying customers to use or some sort of information system for your employees, then one of the two license types - internal users or apps for sale would apply. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 12:54, "use-livecode on behalf of Raymond Bennett via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin and Co. - Thanks as always for all you've done and continue to do. Livecode Server didn't get mentioned (that I saw) in this announcement. My assumption is LC Server will continue. If that's true, then that brings me to the question of licensing for web deployments. If the application does it's work via the web - e.g. an app like the Meetingspace app from the 2022 conference - what is the license model for that? Thank you. Ray Bennett _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:04:42 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:04:42 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> If the app is genuinely a free companion app then there are no fees payable under our model. It sounds like that is the case here so no change. What we won't accept is someone pretending the app is free and restructuring their business model to make it appear that way when its actually a paid app. I'm not suggesting that is the case here. However if the VAT man was to determine that this app should be paying digital services tax in future then we'd also consider it to have a value at that point. In terms of removing the label, it will be a very small tasteful badge. Lets have another conversation about it at the time to see if this is really an issue. I except we can come up with a solution if so. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 13:49, "use-livecode on behalf of General 2018 via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin, I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. Is that the understanding ? Regards Camm On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode > wrote: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:05:58 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:05:58 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <684A916B-5005-4031-8642-E6F7E2FD9A46@livecode.com> The bigger difference here is in internal users who buy either Native/Cloud or Universal. In the apps for sale only the developers need those seats, there is no difference to the application payments model regardless of what platforms you deploy. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 13:29, "use-livecode on behalf of Pi Digital via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin You mentioned a difference between having classic, web based and universal. How does that reflect in the pricing as there only seems to be the option for two models, internal and external apps. Does a ‘seat’ cover use for all the platforms? This will also have a great impact on ‘value’, I’m sure. Sean Cole Still developing for one LC subscriber but in LC5.0.2 having been forced out of actual business by the non-delivery of LC10 into stable and most features invested into not arriving as promised along. Baffled by the fact LCLtd are giving people only 1mth to ‘decide’ (like that makes it an actual ‘decision’; it’s more like being held at gunpoint as LCLtd are killing “classic”) and fund into yet another DP (!!) that may not ever see the ‘Stable’, much like LC10 which hasn’t seen an update since Apr’23. It’s a bit ‘cheeky’, you cheeky chappies 😜😛😜 you. 😅 Good job glossing over this 😚😉 _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:13:27 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:13:27 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <48466A01-DC46-4AF9-9C31-C57FF93ECE76@mac.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> Message-ID: <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:22:28 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:22:28 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: Right - so your company has already recognized the value of being able to deploy custom apps to their employees and willingly pays a monthly per-user fee to do so. That vendor happens to be to Microsoft rather than LiveCode. Our new platform provides more value than Power Apps and has had a great deal of investment in it. Unfortunately I can’t really help that your company has bought a solution from someone else. Trying to price our platform in a non-commercial way because you have something else installed would make it unviable for us. I suspect making the same suggestion that Microsoft should offer their platform for less would not be entertained by Microsoft either! Drop me a line off list and lets have a chat about what we can do. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Colin Kelly Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 13:21 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future As our employees all have a valid MS 0365 Business standard license and Powerapps are deployed via a tab in Microsoft Teams then there is no other cost for deploying PowerApps, the cost of deploying PowerApps over LC is significantly less! From General.2018 at outlook.com Wed Jul 24 09:59:34 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:59:34 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> References: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> Message-ID: Hi Kevin , Thanks for the reply. Well that sounds promising. Totally agree if digital service VAT is deemed due then the app can no longer be classed as free. Kind Regards > On 24 Jul 2024, at 14:05, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If the app is genuinely a free companion app then there are no fees payable under our model. It sounds like that is the case here so no change. What we won't accept is someone pretending the app is free and restructuring their business model to make it appear that way when its actually a paid app. I'm not suggesting that is the case here. However if the VAT man was to determine that this app should be paying digital services tax in future then we'd also consider it to have a value at that point. > > In terms of removing the label, it will be a very small tasteful badge. Lets have another conversation about it at the time to see if this is really an issue. I except we can come up with a solution if so. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 13:49, "use-livecode on behalf of General 2018 via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, > > > I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” > > > The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. > This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. > > > So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. > > > Is that the understanding ? > > > > > Regards > Camm > > > On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode > wrote: > > > Yes, this is quite important to me as well. > > > Thanks, > Tim Selander > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From gagsoft at iafrica.com Wed Jul 24 10:27:57 2024 From: gagsoft at iafrica.com (Peter Gagiano) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:27:57 +0200 (SAST) Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> Message-ID: <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Hi Kevin Hi Heather. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developed and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" To: "How to use LiveCode" Cc: "Kevin Miller" Sent: Wednesday, 24 July, 2024 15:13:27 Subject: Re: Livecode Future Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 10:45:40 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:45:40 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Message-ID: <266A9126-26B9-4397-9D91-3C289A6FAE7B@livecode.com> Hi Peter, Thanks for this. I'm going to send this on to support if that’s ok, so Heather can help you with your specific subscription options. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 15:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Peter Gagiano via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin Hi Heather. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developed and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > To: "How to use LiveCode" > Cc: "Kevin Miller" > Sent: Wednesday, 24 July, 2024 15:13:27 Subject: Re: Livecode Future Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller > wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 10:55:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:55:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of antitrust case to catch up. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Colin Kelly Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Hi Kevin, I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that we would already be using so not an additional cost MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. -- From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 11:44:50 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:44:50 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of the correct syntax. Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you can also include files as part of knowledge base.) I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a little better in this regard. See if you have better luck generating livecode with this https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt Thanks, Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > so, for you, the trick was: > * claude (opus) > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > that) > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > anything else? > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Hey Mike, > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > nothing > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > source > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for > the > > standard. > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > when I > > got to testing it > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > reasonable > > LC > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From prothero at ucsb.edu Wed Jul 24 11:52:58 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:52:58 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Folks, I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? Thanks, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 11:54:54 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:54:54 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. Bob S From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Jul 24 11:56:22 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:56:22 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Find Out More > On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > Folks, > I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? > > Thanks, > Bill > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 12:08:47 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:08:47 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large products at a quick pace as well. So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade plus, with many different products. I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the community to build.) So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as Kevin said in the video. To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and faster updates. That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really sucks. I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. Thanks for listening Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:09:35 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:09:35 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:14:53 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:14:53 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) The minisite link you want is here: https://future.livecode.com/ Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > Find Out More > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Folks, >> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >> >> Thanks, >> Bill >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:30:31 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:30:31 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Too late. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote: > > Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) > > The minisite link you want is here: > > https://future.livecode.com/ > > Best Regards, > > Heather > > Heather Laine > Customer Services Manager > LiveCode Ltd > www.livecode.com > > > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Find Out More >> >> >>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bill >>> >>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:37:46 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:37:46 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> No, those apps will continue to work. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > > I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Jul 24 12:39:02 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:39:02 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: I don’t think that there is any “phone home” to LiveCode in compiled classic apps. Peter Bogdanoff > On Jul 24, 2024, at 12:09 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. > > I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:46:14 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:46:14 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> Message-ID: <8B737E1F-7D2A-4FFF-A5EE-A5DB33082410@iotecdigital.com> Thanks Kevin that is much more encouraging. At least I won’t have to abandon the work I have already done. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:37 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > No, those apps will continue to work. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. > > > I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From prothero at ucsb.edu Wed Jul 24 12:46:16 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:46:16 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the link. I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Too late. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) >> >> The minisite link you want is here: >> >> https://future.livecode.com/ >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Heather >> >> Heather Laine >> Customer Services Manager >> LiveCode Ltd >> www.livecode.com >> >> >> >>>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Find Out More >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:52:15 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:52:15 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are Application Payments?". Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large products at a quick pace as well. So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade plus, with many different products. I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the community to build.) So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as Kevin said in the video. To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and faster updates. That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really sucks. I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. Thanks for listening Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > To: How to use LiveCode > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:53:53 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:53:53 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Thanks for the link. I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > > Too late. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) >> >> The minisite link you want is here: >> >> https://future.livecode.com/ >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Heather >> >> Heather Laine >> Customer Services Manager >> LiveCode Ltd >> www.livecode.com >> >> >> >>>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Find Out More >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 24 13:03:13 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:03:13 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what did you send to chatgpt to generate the LC expert model? On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:46 AM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. > so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. > The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to > figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of the > correct syntax. > Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude > "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you can > also include files as part of knowledge base.) > > I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a > little better in this regard. > > See if you have better luck generating livecode with this > > https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > so, for you, the trick was: > > * claude (opus) > > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > > that) > > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > > anything else? > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > > nothing > > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > > source > > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for > > the > > > standard. > > > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks > for > > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > > when I > > > got to testing it > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > > reasonable > > > LC > > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From mailkeliko01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 13:09:27 2024 From: mailkeliko01 at gmail.com (Riko Abadi) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:09:27 +0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. > > Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what > you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue > increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are > Application Payments?". > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. > > > I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. > While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet > I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself > so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large > products at a quick pace as well. > > > So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. > Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade > plus, with many different products. > I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the > community to build.) > > > So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as > Kevin said in the video. > > > To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? > And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and > faster updates. > That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. > > > I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really > sucks. > I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. > > > Thanks for listening > > > Tom > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > > To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing > that > > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From craig at starfirelighting.com Wed Jul 24 13:23:49 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:23:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. Craig > On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode wrote: > > I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my > web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the > Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web > hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >> >> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >> Application Payments?". >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >> use-livecode" > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >> >> >> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >> products at a quick pace as well. >> >> >> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >> plus, with many different products. >> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >> community to build.) >> >> >> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >> Kevin said in the video. >> >> >> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >> faster updates. >> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >> >> >> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >> sucks. >> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >> >> >> Thanks for listening >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>> >>> >>> >>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>> antitrust case to catch up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ >> http://www.livecode.com/ >>> >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Colin Kelly > >>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>> To: How to use LiveCode > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> >>> Cc: Kevin Miller > >>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> >>> >>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >> that >>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>> >>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 13:28:05 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:28:05 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <3579ECBB-964C-4C6A-B0F3-AF9DC5A696A2@livecode.com> No, only the revenue attributable to the app. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Riko Abadi via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. > > Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what > you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue > increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are > Application Payments?". > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. > > > I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. > While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet > I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself > so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large > products at a quick pace as well. > > > So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. > Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade > plus, with many different products. > I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the > community to build.) > > > So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as > Kevin said in the video. > > > To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? > And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and > faster updates. > That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. > > > I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really > sucks. > I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. > > > Thanks for listening > > > Tom > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly >> > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > > To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > > Cc: Kevin Miller >> > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing > that > > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 13:28:27 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:28:27 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <422AD9A9-2F4D-48C6-A731-DA0E37D8BE1A@livecode.com> I'll see if we can expand the FAQ a bit further tomorrow. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:23, "use-livecode on behalf of Craig Newman via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. Craig > On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode > wrote: > > I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my > web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the > Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web > hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >> >> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >> Application Payments?". >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >> use-livecode" > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> wrote: >> >> >> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >> >> >> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >> products at a quick pace as well. >> >> >> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >> plus, with many different products. >> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >> community to build.) >> >> >> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >> Kevin said in the video. >> >> >> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >> faster updates. >> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >> >> >> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >> sucks. >> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >> >> >> Thanks for listening >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>> >>> >>> >>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>> antitrust case to catch up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ >> http://www.livecode.com/ >>> >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Colin Kelly >> >>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>> To: How to use LiveCode > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >>> Cc: Kevin Miller >> >>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> >>> >>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >> that >>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>> >>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 24 13:47:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:47:11 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I am a bit lost as I am trying to figure out how I fit in the new license plans. I have built a couple of desktop apps years ago for 2 different clients who use them in their business, with less than 20 users in total. These apps make intensive use of LC server and I also have 2 LC-hosting accounts. I keep maintaining these apps with cosmetic changes once or twice a year. Most of the time these modifications represent less than 1% or 2% of the code, but each time I need to recompile for MacOS & Windows. I use a license for MacOS and Windows which gets renewed every year. Therefore my question : how will I be able to continue in the same way ? Thanks, jbv From dan at clearvisiontech.com Wed Jul 24 14:27:31 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:27:31 +0000 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a firewall other security method)? -Dan From heather at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:30:58 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:30:58 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <19993D5F-A5F8-4E76-A283-6C2BE84EFE46@livecode.com> https://future.livecode.com/faq/ Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 24 Jul 2024, at 18:23, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > > I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" > > This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. > > Craig > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my >> web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the >> Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web >> hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >>> >>> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >>> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >>> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >>> Application Payments?". >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >>> use-livecode" >> use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >>> >>> >>> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >>> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >>> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >>> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >>> products at a quick pace as well. >>> >>> >>> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >>> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >>> plus, with many different products. >>> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >>> community to build.) >>> >>> >>> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >>> Kevin said in the video. >>> >>> >>> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >>> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >>> faster updates. >>> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >>> >>> >>> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >>> sucks. >>> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >>> >>> >>> Thanks for listening >>> >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>>> antitrust case to catch up. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ >>> http://www.livecode.com/ >>>> >>>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Colin Kelly > >>>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>>> To: How to use LiveCode >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> >>>> Cc: Kevin Miller > >>>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Kevin, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >>> that >>>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>>> >>>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 14:45:36 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:45:36 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: This is a good question, or if the license server goes down..... I think in case of failure it has to allow the software to proceed. Otherwise EVERYTHING hinges on some droplet on digital ocean. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:28 PM Dan Friedman via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, > what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by > a firewall other security method)? > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:53:47 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:53:47 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Please drop a line to support so we can talk through your specific/individual question in more detail. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:47, "use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi list, I am a bit lost as I am trying to figure out how I fit in the new license plans. I have built a couple of desktop apps years ago for 2 different clients who use them in their business, with less than 20 users in total. These apps make intensive use of LC server and I also have 2 LC-hosting accounts. I keep maintaining these apps with cosmetic changes once or twice a year. Most of the time these modifications represent less than 1% or 2% of the code, but each time I need to recompile for MacOS & Windows. I use a license for MacOS and Windows which gets renewed every year. Therefore my question : how will I be able to continue in the same way ? Thanks, jbv _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ludovic.thebault at laposte.net Wed Jul 24 14:53:25 2024 From: ludovic.thebault at laposte.net (Ludovic THEBAULT) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 20:53:25 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> > Le 24 juil. 2024 à 18:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode a écrit : > > Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin Hello, A few questions : If I take out a licence for the new software, what happens to the current subscription? Is it automatically cancelled? According to the FAQ, you can continue to work ‘the old way’ until the new interface is finalised. Is Livecode 10 actually included in the new package? Or is it a new software that will offer a few new features like automatic backup and AI? Will current plug-ins such as Datagrid helper be able to be used with the new software (at least in ‘classic’ mode)? Thanks. Ludovic From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:55:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:55:23 +0100 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are able to get online. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a firewall other security method)? -Dan _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 15:58:53 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:58:53 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is constructive, and not hold back. Thank you in advance. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > able to get online. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > firewall other security method)? > > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jeff at siphonophore.com Wed Jul 24 16:04:44 2024 From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:04:44 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. Jeff From htorrado at networkdreams.net Wed Jul 24 19:18:57 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:18:57 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3d4966d5-f453-4a80-ae02-c7deb9ea82b4@networkdreams.net> Hi Kevin, Thank you very much for your response. It is an honor to receive a reply from the founder of Livecode. I had indeed misunderstood the non-commercial internal use licenses, so I appreciate the clarification. Perhaps it might be helpful to address this on the future Livecode website, as it may not be very clear to others as well. The cost of the commercial license seems reasonable and in line with what other manufacturers charge. As you mentioned, time is gold, and being productive in developing an app or website significantly impacts a company's costs. Over fifteen years ago, I decided to invest my time and knowledge in Livecode because I consider it the best cross-platform tool available. However, I was initially concerned when I thought each employee had to pay $150 for using a small application in-house. I am currently developing small applications and websites within the company, such as an application for our IT department to easily encrypt and decrypt folders. I congratulate you and all Livecode team for continuing to lead Livecode for more than 25 years. You have taken the baton from Hypercard and elevated it to an incredible level. Now that I know you read my messages, I would like take advantage :-) and to suggest considering a new GPL version of Livecode Server Script. Years ago, I replaced all my Python scripts with Livecode. I believe a GPL version of Livecode Server would significantly boost the platform. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/24/24 04:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to > sell, its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed > by your company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little > more closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming > you don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter > takes only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly > mounts up. Any app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create > is going to pay for itself in the saving of your time when compared to > the new licensing costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few > apps are created perfect, most require regular changes as they > encounter the real world. So you have the ongoing increase in > development costs for every update PLUS the lost productivity costs of > each of those users having to wait longer for each update, or ending up > with an app that simply doesn't do what they need. This happens all the > time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I have no idea what those > users do so this could be way out, but if they are earning say $50K a > year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much time with a > better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here many times > over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps > out faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, > getting your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire > user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming > days which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that > now, or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin From htorrado at networkdreams.net Wed Jul 24 19:51:15 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:51:15 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> Hi Jeff, I believe many people don't consider you to be an odd duck at all. You come from a time when software developers were akin to craftsmen. It was a more romantic era, where you would get a program like HyperCard or Visual Basic, retreat to your office with a few books, and create software. It was a time when relationships with clients were direct and face-to-face, often resulting in lasting friendships. I fondly remember my youth and adolescence in the 80s in Spainthe arrival of the first Commodores and ZX Spectrums, rushing to the newsstand to buy my favorite computer magazine, and typing the codes from its pages into the computer. In the early 90s, I detected a bug when installing Microsoft Office alongside Corel Draw on Windows 95. I called Microsoft, and two weeks later, I received a diskette with a patch that resolved the issue. Now, at 52, I've been in the IT and software business for so long that I can hardly remember a time before it. I've lived through the explosion of 8-bit computers, the advent of the IBM XT and early Apple models, the rise of object-oriented programming, LAN networks with UNIX and Novell, the Internet, and the web. Yet, I struggle to adapt to the current software development paradigm: software that constantly calls home to the manufacturer, licensing fees for every program you develop, incessant updates that break everything, and absurd development speeds. I long to return to the joyful 80s and remain there perpetually. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/24/24 16:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode wrote: > Ive used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize Im the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. Im not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as its usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or dont work in the gear. Ive had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and its a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my clients environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks Im on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. Im sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons Im sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt Ill do much if any programming in retirement now, Ive had enough after over the last 5 decades, its now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand thats where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, its not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and dont need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From james at thehales.id.au Wed Jul 24 20:52:13 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James At The Hales) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:52:13 +1000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. Can someone provide a link to this video? I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. James From alex at tweedly.net Wed Jul 24 22:44:28 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 03:44:28 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Jul 2024, at 01:53, James At The Hales via use-livecode wrote: > > Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. > Can someone provide a link to this video? > I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) > > Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. > > Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. > > While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. > > James > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 00:08:21 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:08:21 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - LiveCode Addons Message-ID: Do we need to make application payments for LiveCode Addons? Hopefully no - Addons work on LC Classic too, so tracking doesn't seem plausible to me. If Addons even count as 'Apps'. Nor is paying both 'Internal' and 'for Sale' affordable for an LiveCode consultant who does LC work and makes Addons. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Jul 25 00:21:14 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:21:14 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I fed it the livecode reference manual ... i had a pdf of it, not sure where to find that now. Also the builder documentation from here https://livecode.com/apidocs/docs/guide.html#livecode-builder-language-reference I think I might have missed the top section of builder related guides. and the httpd library. I also instructed it on how quotes work in livecode and to use & quote instead of escaping a quotation mark. (because I noticed that it gets that wrong, and so when I notice certain things, I then instruct on how to not make that mistake) Cheers Mike, I hope that help On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:04 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > what did you send to chatgpt to generate the LC expert model? > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:46 AM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > > > > I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. > > so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. > > The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to > > figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of > the > > correct syntax. > > Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude > > "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you > can > > also include files as part of knowledge base.) > > > > I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a > > little better in this regard. > > > > See if you have better luck generating livecode with this > > > > https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt > > > > Thanks, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > so, for you, the trick was: > > > * claude (opus) > > > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > > > that) > > > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > > > anything else? > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work > better > > > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > > > nothing > > > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > > > source > > > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs > for > > > the > > > > standard. > > > > > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks > > for > > > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > > > when I > > > > got to testing it > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > > > reasonable > > > > LC > > > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > > and did a little diving. > > > And God said, "This is good." > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 00:24:49 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:24:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - access to LC Classic IDEs Message-ID: <362779b5-f551-4e4b-a420-bfce5af67f82@pair.com> If you move an existing LC subscription over to Create... Do you lose access to the bona fide LiveCode Classic IDEs for 6.7, 9, and 10? And the licensing terms thereof for new app builds created with them? Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From james at thehales.id.au Thu Jul 25 02:37:01 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James Hale) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:37:01 +1000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <7F51E3AD-1753-4763-B957-7DE8AB9896C4@thehales.id.au> A bit more here (I’m in Oz) $685 at today’s rate. Just under my fortnightly age pension. And for a product that is still to be released! Still has bits that don’t work and who knows what the documentation will be like, if it even exists yet. Paying for things still to come is getting old (especially with the track record of the company.) > On 25 Jul 2024, at 12:44 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > James ------------------------ Mob: 0408 206 883 From panos.merakos at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:12:24 2024 From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:12:24 +0300 Subject: [[ ANN ]] Release 10.0.0 RC-1 Message-ID: Dear list members, We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 10.0.0 RC-1. LiveCode 10.0.0 RC-1 comes with 11 bugfixes since the previous DP release, and also includes the bugfixes of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1, including support for building against API 34 on Android. You can find more details on the bugfixes and improvements of this new release here: https://livecode.com/livecode-10-rc-1-google-play-store-and-cef-updates-2/ You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get it via the automatic updater. Enjoy! Kind regards The LiveCode Team -- From smk at anvic.net Thu Jul 25 03:33:21 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:33:21 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Hi Jeff, When I was working my use cases would have run into similar issues as you describe. Most of my applications were short lived and were used by either defence contractors or the military themselves. If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. I suspect that if I used Livecode Create today I would end up having to prove that it was not contacting any remote servers so much so that I doubt that even being accepted as a "special case" by RunRev would cut it with the military security services. Even if the application were allowed then the licensing is complex, for example I was once paid to support the Ten Tors race by designing and writing a database front end to a PostGre database of competitors which was designed to track team members during the two day event. The event is run by the UK Army and the competitors are all teenagers i.e. children. The event is managed from an army camp on Dartmoor where there is no internet. The database front end was installed on something like fifteen computers situated in departments dotted around the camp such as transport and the medical centre. Each department had personal accessing the database as and when they needed to.These people were working shifts over the time of the event. Each department tended to use a single login so I have no idea how the number of users could be tracked. Also the security and privacy issues were massive and there is no way that software that contacted or attempted to contact the cloud would have be allowed. While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. I have read and reread the licensing terms along with the updated FAQs but I still have no idea how the example above would have been charged if written in LC Create today. For example my application used a database library, written in Livecode Script and licensed from Andrea Garcia. Does the use of third party libraries cause additional licensing issues? Like you I think now is time to find other hobbies; the Proxxon range of mini tools are interesting and don't have the same licensing issues. best wishes Simon > On 24 Jul 2024, at 21:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode wrote: > > I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:53:40 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:53:40 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> Message-ID: <2AAC7E44-556E-4687-9F5B-1736A3324CD2@livecode.com> Access to Classic and older builds continues to be included in the Create license. If you move then either we or you can cancel your existing subscription. Existing plugins will continue to run in Classic mode. Some of them may already run in Create, it depends on how tightly they are tied into the IDE. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things Hello, A few questions : If I take out a licence for the new software, what happens to the current subscription? Is it automatically cancelled? According to the FAQ, you can continue to work ‘the old way’ until the new interface is finalised. Is Livecode 10 actually included in the new package? Or is it a new software that will offer a few new features like automatic backup and AI? Will current plug-ins such as Datagrid helper be able to be used with the new software (at least in ‘classic’ mode)? Thanks. Ludovic _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:54:07 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:54:07 +0100 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> Happy to read such an email. You have my email address. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 20:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is constructive, and not hold back. Thank you in advance. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > able to get online. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > firewall other security method)? > > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:57:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:57:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A1BC64D-CE5E-42D0-B104-CD30C3FBF427@livecode.com> I don't think this is going to be too difficult. Might just be easier to license the machines this is on rather than the number of people. If that is even necessary, as volunteers do not count. As I've said in previous replies, phone home is not a requirement. If you drop us a line in support we can work out an exact quote for you. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 21:04, "use-livecode on behalf of Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. Jeff _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:27:35 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:27:35 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F068F83-0EE1-4DBF-87C2-CB5CD398BCBE@livecode.com> We're going to tweak this policy a bit after feedback. Stay tuned for an email. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 01:52, "use-livecode on behalf of James At The Hales via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. Can someone provide a link to this video? I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:28:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:28:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Yes, the price for a hobbyist using multiple platforms is lower now. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 03:44, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Jul 2024, at 01:53, James At The Hales via use-livecode > wrote: > > Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. > Can someone provide a link to this video? > I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) > > Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. > > Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. > > While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. > > James > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:28:34 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:28:34 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - LiveCode Addons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 05:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Do we need to make application payments for LiveCode Addons? Hopefully no - Addons work on LC Classic too, so tracking doesn't seem plausible to me. If Addons even count as 'Apps'. Nor is paying both 'Internal' and 'for Sale' affordable for an LiveCode consultant who does LC work and makes Addons. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:32:16 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:32:16 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> References: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Message-ID: <6D31482D-57F1-4EB8-8C68-67A2824D1970@livecode.com> As I've said several times now - we are not mandating tracking. You can count machines instead of users if you prefer - it's one or the other (not some mixture of both). Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 08:33, "use-livecode on behalf of Simon Knight via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Jeff, When I was working my use cases would have run into similar issues as you describe. Most of my applications were short lived and were used by either defence contractors or the military themselves. If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. I suspect that if I used Livecode Create today I would end up having to prove that it was not contacting any remote servers so much so that I doubt that even being accepted as a "special case" by RunRev would cut it with the military security services. Even if the application were allowed then the licensing is complex, for example I was once paid to support the Ten Tors race by designing and writing a database front end to a PostGre database of competitors which was designed to track team members during the two day event. The event is run by the UK Army and the competitors are all teenagers i.e. children. The event is managed from an army camp on Dartmoor where there is no internet. The database front end was installed on something like fifteen computers situated in departments dotted around the camp such as transport and the medical centre. Each department had personal accessing the database as and when they needed to.These people were working shifts over the time of the event. Each department tended to use a single login so I have no idea how the number of users could be tracked. Also the security and privacy issues were massive and there is no way that software that contacted or attempted to contact the cloud would have be allowed. While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. I have read and reread the licensing terms along with the updated FAQs but I still have no idea how the example above would have been charged if written in LC Create today. For example my application used a database library, written in Livecode Script and licensed from Andrea Garcia. Does the use of third party libraries cause additional licensing issues? Like you I think now is time to find other hobbies; the Proxxon range of mini tools are interesting and don't have the same licensing issues. best wishes Simon > On 24 Jul 2024, at 21:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mark at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:41:42 2024 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:41:42 +0100 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> References: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> On 2024-07-23 14:23, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > Hi list, > > I have the following script : > > create image > put number of imgs into ni > put id of img ni into tid > set filename of img id tid to myFile > put imageData of img id tid into pimage > -- many lines for imagedata analysis > crop image id tid to rect trect > > I get this error : > crop: object is not an image That is a slightly misleading error... 'crop' does not operate on images which are referenced - i.e. use a filename To crop such an image, load the data into the image: set the text of img id tid to url ("binfile:" & myFile) Hope this helps. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From mark at rauterkus.com Thu Jul 25 07:17:22 2024 From: mark at rauterkus.com (mark at rauterkus.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 07:17:22 -0400 Subject: LiveCode and AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> Hi, The words "AI" were used once in the new future page. Radical omission? Seems like a major shift when contrasted to those infant days of Create. Wondering. Mark Rauterkus From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 08:22:45 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:22:45 +0100 Subject: LiveCode and AI In-Reply-To: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> References: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> Message-ID: <955CA875-DC24-4267-A982-ED90485D4F57@livecode.com> Its still very much part of the picture. There is an AI assistant in the Script Editor already in DP 1. There will be additional AI capabilities for defining layouts and choosing actions as we progress. Its possible these may be after 1.0 depending on how progress continues on them. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 12:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Rauterkus via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi, The words "AI" were used once in the new future page. Radical omission? Seems like a major shift when contrasted to those infant days of Create. Wondering. Mark Rauterkus _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Thu Jul 25 08:47:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:47:11 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> References: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> Message-ID: <2ec457e9ca6463ddfe885e5a924b127e@souslelogo.com> Hi Mark, Yes, it helped a lot. Many thanks. jbv Le 2024-07-25 05:41, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode a crit : > On 2024-07-23 14:23, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi list, >> >> I have the following script : >> >> create image >> put number of imgs into ni >> put id of img ni into tid >> set filename of img id tid to myFile >> put imageData of img id tid into pimage >> -- many lines for imagedata analysis >> crop image id tid to rect trect >> >> I get this error : >> crop: object is not an image > > That is a slightly misleading error... > > 'crop' does not operate on images which are referenced - i.e. use a > filename > > To crop such an image, load the data into the image: > set the text of img id tid to url ("binfile:" & myFile) > > Hope this helps. > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. From livfoss at mac.com Thu Jul 25 10:30:15 2024 From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:30:15 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. Best Graham > On 24 Jul 2024, at 17:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Thanks for the link. > I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. > > > So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. > > > Best, > Bill > > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Jul 25 10:39:41 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:39:41 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> Message-ID: Thank you Kevin I will compile my thoughts, but also make it succinct. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 3:54 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Happy to read such an email. You have my email address. Thanks. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 20:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Kevin, > > > If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? > I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is > constructive, and not hold back. > > > Thank you in advance. > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > > able to get online. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>> > > wrote: > > > > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, > what > > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > > firewall other security method)? > > > > > > -Dan > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 11:17:56 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:17:56 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking Hell In-Reply-To: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> References: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Message-ID: Simon: > If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" > I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. Exactly! It's a nightmare for many clients. > While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort > something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds > additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. Absolutely! Huge annoyance, and more busywork approvals per project is a no-go. Kevin: > As I've said several times now - we are not mandating tracking. See above, and your FAQ! Needs a very clear answer ... and a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 11:26:51 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:26:51 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > Sent from my iPhone > From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 11:30:22 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:30:22 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 11:51:39 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:51:39 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? Message-ID: The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." All unnecessary! A simple oversight: We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From prothero at ucsb.edu Thu Jul 25 12:08:36 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:08:36 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, Just checking.. I am a hobbyist, no income is made on my apps. But if I want to make an app that my wife or friend might use, I need to add seats for them? Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 12:12:04 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:12:04 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <736FC788-E875-4AD8-9FA0-D1D0DB7090F5@livecode.com> No. They are not commercial users - your company does not employ them, nor are they customers. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, Just checking.. I am a hobbyist, no income is made on my apps. But if I want to make an app that my wife or friend might use, I need to add seats for them? Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode > wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 12:13:19 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:13:19 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> Data hosting is already optional in a "standard way" - you don't have to actually use it! You can still build your app, connect to your own database (e.g. MySQL) hosted on your own server, build a standalone or a web app and distribute it yourself. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 16:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." All unnecessary! A simple oversight: We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Jul 25 12:15:05 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:15:05 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> Head of nail hit perfectly. Thanks, Curry. Concise as ever. Sean Cole > On 25 Jul 2024, at 16:51, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: > > "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. > > DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." > > All unnecessary! A simple oversight: > > We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. > > And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Thu Jul 25 12:15:50 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:15:50 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: i'm coming to this conversation, late, because i'm spending very little time coding, and most of my time managing. if i understand the pricing correctly, LC wants to charge $440/year for each mobile device that is running an app that we wrote (we don't have any publicly available apps, so the 5%, aka the sales commission, wouldn't apply). so, for the app that we use on kiosks in our plant, and have messed around with letting employees put on their own phones, we're talking about somewhere around $7,000 (16 devices) for our internal app, and another $20-25k for our customers' apps. i hope that i'm wrong about that. if i'm not, lc just entered the realm of uncompetitive for building and running these mobile apps. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it > correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would > be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal > users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding > is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well > as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including > myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company > does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make > generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 > standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I > do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there > was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re > incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build > and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer > seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less > than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about > buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The > expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at > the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know > how that will be calculated. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 12:27:21 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:27:21 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> References: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> Message-ID: <86b3f269-5a1b-40d9-9cbf-a415b9409e95@pair.com> Kevin: > Data hosting is already optional in a "standard way" - > you don't have to actually use it! Ahem - and not PAY for it when not used! LOL. Perhaps more than just data hosting, but similar problems.... Again, I'm already seeing and hearing: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. $$$. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." Toxic message to keep sending! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 12:29:43 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:29:43 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> References: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: <5dabf64d-4567-424e-998d-c47282f3ee08@pair.com> Sean: > Head of nail hit perfectly. Thanks, Curry. Concise as ever. Thanks Sean! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From prothero at ucsb.edu Thu Jul 25 12:30:50 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:30:50 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> Message-ID: <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 17:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> >> Thanks for the link. >> I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. >> >> >> So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. >> >> >> Best, >> Bill >> >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 12:55:38 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:55:38 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. Best Graham From gagsoft at iafrica.com Thu Jul 25 13:01:29 2024 From: gagsoft at iafrica.com (Peter Gagiano) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 19:01:29 +0200 (SAST) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1967632226.19736773.1721926889972.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Hi Heather. I do not know if Kevin forwarded this to you. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developer and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 13:07:41 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:07:41 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From martyknappster at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 14:06:46 2024 From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:06:46 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> I have a commercial app and we deal with people “sharing” the software with others. Is there a way to account for this? Let’s say one legit customer shares the software with 2 others and each of those people share with 2 others. Extrapolate that over time and that number could grow quite large. Will I be charged for all those illegitimate users? Marty Knapp > On Jul 25, 2024, at 10:07 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! > > Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Jul 25 14:47:40 2024 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:47:40 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004f01dadec3$243e42a0$6cbac7e0$@net> I guess that we will have to put in licensing code to prevent that by tying a specific install to one computer. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Marty Knapp via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2024 2:07 PM To: Use Livecode Cc: Marty Knapp Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something I have a commercial app and we deal with people “sharing” the software with others. Is there a way to account for this? Let’s say one legit customer shares the software with 2 others and each of those people share with 2 others. Extrapolate that over time and that number could grow quite large. Will I be charged for all those illegitimate users? Marty Knapp > On Jul 25, 2024, at 10:07 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! > > Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Jul 25 14:49:02 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 19:49:02 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - Co-development use case Message-ID: Hi Kevin or any one else in the know As you may know, I am kind of tied perpetually to Porrima who still has a valid LC9 subscription (afaik) and, while I don't subscribe anymore since my company's (& health's) demise, I still offer cleanup and updates for bits I developed on their commercial software, built in LC5.0.2 (and still works just fine, with a little TLS(ecurity) hack). This, I know, will not be affected by LC Create. I have two use-case questions: My first question is based on the case that if I were to develop on the LC9/LC10/Create versions of their software (which is needed to comply with various other security needs), do I ONLY pay for MY seat to develop my bits for them and THEY pay for both THEIR seats as required PLUS each end 'user' of their software which they build from their seat? As a quick follow-up to this, if the payment for end-users is never more than 5% of the app revenue, and only applies to revenue 'directly' generated by the app *if we use Create* to build apps for sale to the 'public' (by which I assume you mean any customer, business or public), not LC9 or 10, what actual percentage are we looking at if we only sell to one or two customers (small to medium businesses) who have sometimes just two or three actual users? Transparently, without going into private messages and conversations, what realistically are people (your customers) looking at? Cards on the table. The second is based on the scenario that those aforementioned customers occasionally have up to 20 or 30 people using the software during busy seasons. Do Porrima have to keep track and account for those fluctuations? Do other LC developers have to keep track of how many buyers of their software are still using it (by some kind of subscription or sign in method) and then work out what percentage they owe to you. And then, if they are on a free trial before getting a paid version, how does your 'phone home' system that people have been querying make allowance for those? This could get very complicated very quickly, especially for the small business just trying to get by but getting kicked out of business by yet another "buy-in to our Kickstarter (or else) before getting a finished product (maybe ever)" 'upgrade'. I'm trying to make this sound ok but I am getting the sick taste of Deja vu. I'm mentally much better now but this has been a bit of a trigger for me and, as I'm kinda forced into this messed up mess, I'm not entirely ok. Is it going to be, like LC10, another 4-6 years before LC Create becomes an RTM/GA/GR/GM/Stable Production release? Heck to that if that's the case. Sorry it's long but I think it's obvious why. Regards to all. Sean Cole Owner of Pi Digital Productions Ltd for 20 years before it's sad and untimely death (some might say murder ;)). From irog at mac.com Thu Jul 25 16:16:04 2024 From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:16:04 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Thanks for voicing my thoughts exactly, Bob! Roger > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:55 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. > > I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. > > Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. > > Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! > > All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! > > So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. > Bill > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Thu Jul 25 19:29:53 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:29:53 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. The following is from the FAQs. "If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." So that is not a problem I would say. But the tools I've created for free for family members and colleagues to use in their job would be a big problem if I would have to upgrade them after 2027. There is for example a command line tool with only 199 lines of code, which is used by 10 people. They do not call it directly, they even do not know that it is executed on their machine, but the ERP calls it under their Windows user account with some parameters every time the users send e-mails to a customer with documents attached from the ERP. The licensing alone for this small tool would cost for 1 Dev and 10 Users 4356 Euro per year. That is roundabout twice the annual maintenance fees for the ERP. The other thing is the "phone home". If for example a command line tool which shall be executed in "realtime" first has to phone home before it does for what it was created, I am wondering if this is not decreasing the performance. Kevin explained already, that it will be possible to create also apps that do not phone home, but this has to be discussed with LC Ltd. separately for each app. In my day job I am working as an IT-Security- and Data-Protection-Officer. So this Phone Home "feature" gives me in general a stomachache. Kevin already confirmed that LC Create/Native will comply GDRP. That's of course reassuring to know, but detailed information is needed about what data exactly is stored where and how. And also about how secure the data is. The technical organisational measures should contain all this information. I will wait and see what the future really brings. 3 years is a long time and yet somehow it isn't. My main goal is to stay and continue developing with Livecode (classic,Create,Native) even after 2027. But I will start looking for an commercial alternative that allows to deploy at least to Mac,Win,Linux. The mobile platforms and Web would be fine, but are not so important for me. Matthias > Am 25.07.2024 um 18:55 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : > > It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. > > I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. > > Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. > > Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! > > All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! > > So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. > Bill > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 19:46:09 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 23:46:09 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. From alex at tweedly.net Thu Jul 25 20:02:14 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:02:14 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: On 26/07/2024 00:46, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. > > Bob S Commercial ?  I guess so. But I don't see that it fits the criteria for "Internal apps"; that category is for apps that have been developed by a company, paying either an employee or contractor to develop it. In your case, you did the app in your own time, using your own LC license. You're not employed to do coding, and didn't get paid for any coding you did. The app, and any associated IP, belongs to you - not to any company. It therefore qualifies as an "app for sale". So put the app on an AppStore (or sell it directly), and pay the 5% of revenue plus one developer seat. Alex. > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) > > I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. > Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. > Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) > > The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Thu Jul 25 20:28:58 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 20:28:58 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Hello, I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. Thank you for your assistance. On 7/25/24 11:30, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a seat as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 seats at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Its the one signposted as something like growing the community. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think youre incorrect about there being no place for us in LCs future. We can build and distribute our non-ncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we dont yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From james at thehales.id.au Thu Jul 25 20:37:06 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James At The Hales) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:37:06 +1000 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: Perhaps it would help if there was a definition of a seat, re licensing. There seems to be confusion in parts. Making an app and selling it is fine, 5% of sale price per sale. Crystal clear. But, making an app and distributing it for free (via app store of whatever) or within a company is muddled. Some of Kevin’s replies seem to point to a cost for the distributed app equivalent to a “seat”. This doesn’t make sense to me unless the distributed app is using LC resources (e.g web systems or AI). I mean if the app is standalone (not using LC services) what does it matter if I give it freely to my friends or work colleagues? It is still a free app (from their point of view.) Surely a “seat” refers to developers accessing the Create IDE, to make apps. Not users of the app? So shouldn’t a distinction be made between “developer seats” and client/user seats that do or not access LC services? James From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Thu Jul 25 22:45:39 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 02:45:39 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Presumably(?) being in an educational setting means the whole internal apps licensing model doesn’t apply but I agree with James that it doesn’t seem quite equitableas it is currently designed and that there is a case for differentiating between developers and users. By way of comparison, a number of people in my work group use Trello and those users that need to create boards and edit board pay, but those who just need to access them don’t. What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them? Terry From: use-livecode on behalf of James At The Hales via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 10:38 AM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: James At The Hales Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something Perhaps it would help if there was a definition of a seat, re licensing. There seems to be confusion in parts. Making an app and selling it is fine, 5% of sale price per sale. Crystal clear. But, making an app and distributing it for free (via app store of whatever) or within a company is muddled. Some of Kevin’s replies seem to point to a cost for the distributed app equivalent to a “seat”. This doesn’t make sense to me unless the distributed app is using LC resources (e.g web systems or AI). I mean if the app is standalone (not using LC services) what does it matter if I give it freely to my friends or work colleagues? It is still a free app (from their point of view.) Surely a “seat” refers to developers accessing the Create IDE, to make apps. Not users of the app? So shouldn’t a distinction be made between “developer seats” and client/user seats that do or not access LC services? James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 02:42:19 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 02:42:19 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar Message-ID: Hi list, I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final layout when the loop is over. However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed something, it seems limited to players. Thank you in advance. jbv From james at thehales.id.au Fri Jul 26 02:53:41 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James Hale) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 16:53:41 +1000 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: Terry asked: "What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them?” You misunderstand me Terry, I think it is perfectly clear to count the use of a stack as a seat given it must use the LC IDE (either desktop or Web.) My confusion is in regard to compiled/standalone apps. The discussion so far seems to count them in the "needing a seat" group if they are say distributed in a company etc. So, to clarify, does a “seat” mean the use of the IDE is required? Which is pretty much the current situation. OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? James From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 02:54:08 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 06:54:08 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar Hi list, I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final layout when the loop is over. However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed something, it seems limited to players. Thank you in advance. jbv _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 03:12:30 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 03:12:30 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Hello Terry, Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting unlock screen lock screen within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but to no avail. Thank you anyway for the idea. Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a crit : > How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that > over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy > over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the > loop is done? > > From: use-livecode on behalf of > jbv via use-livecode > Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com > Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 03:40:44 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 07:40:44 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: I was thinking you would omit the lock screen altogether. Or if things are too slow without it can you move to a different card while all that other stuff is happening? From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 5:13 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com Subject: Re: Lockscreen and progress bar Hello Terry, Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting unlock screen lock screen within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but to no avail. Thank you anyway for the idea. Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : > How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that > over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy > over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the > loop is done? > > From: use-livecode on behalf of > jbv via use-livecode > Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com > Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 03:50:40 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 07:50:40 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I get what you are saying James, I’m just suggesting that there could be a lower cost version of create for ‘non-developer’ seats. That version doesn’t have access to the IDE and it’s only purpose run stacks or ‘apps’ that are produced by the full version of create. You would still need the same number of seats but at a more reasonable cost. Otherwise, I’m kinda struggling to see why you might choose LiveCode over other less constrained tools in an in-house commercial setting. Regards, Terry From: use-livecode on behalf of James Hale via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:55 PM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: James Hale Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something Terry asked: "What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them?” You misunderstand me Terry, I think it is perfectly clear to count the use of a stack as a seat given it must use the LC IDE (either desktop or Web.) My confusion is in regard to compiled/standalone apps. The discussion so far seems to count them in the "needing a seat" group if they are say distributed in a company etc. So, to clarify, does a “seat” mean the use of the IDE is required? Which is pretty much the current situation. OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From smk at anvic.net Fri Jul 26 03:56:58 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 08:56:58 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <380FDA24-2A02-4686-B70B-66D71D053C2F@anvic.net> James, I think it means : > On 26 Jul 2024, at 07:53, James Hale via use-livecode wrote: > > OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 05:16:04 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Colin Kelly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 09:16:04 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Like many here, I use LC to build utility apps to simplify some of the workflows in my workplace, most are raw and dirty but do the job I develop them for. I could create all of these using Python or the like but choose LC due to its simplicity and self-documenting nature as I don’t have to revisit the code often. One of LC strengths is the ease of looking at old code and been able to understand what’s going on. To-date we have many of these apps/applets running in my workplace with a growing workforce of around 180+/- employees. I find the new licensing modal just a tad hard to swallow, my £799 annual licensing fee is going to jump to circa £90k annually on the new licensing system, unless I’ve completely misunderstood the new licensing modal! I’m sure LC would offer to heavily discount this for me but I’m sure it’s not going to be anywhere near my usual £799/year! I’ve invested my own money into LC, supporting every kick-starter campaign, lifetime licensing campaign and paying for bolt-ons to help support the LC product through its various DP/RC stages, and to-date, not seen any really useful return on my investments! so feeling a little disappointed and let down with this latest change of direction! Needless to say, I won’t be presenting the new figures to my employers in my annual budget meeting as I would be laughed out of the room…. In the words of the Dragons Den; ……I’m out! Col. From: use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 00:47 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Bob Sneidar Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Fri Jul 26 05:42:02 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:42:02 +0100 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> Sent from my iPhone > On 26 Jul 2024, at 08:13, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello Terry, > > Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders > the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. > I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting > unlock screen > lock screen > within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but > to no avail. Unlock screen Wait 0 millisecs with messages Lock screen I think 🤔 Alex > > Thank you anyway for the idea. > > Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : >> How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? >> From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode >> Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com >> Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar >> Hi list, >> I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, >> precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. >> On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and >> also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final >> layout when the loop is over. >> However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar >> and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. >> How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed >> something, it seems limited to players. >> Thank you in advance. >> jbv >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Fri Jul 26 06:00:28 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:00:28 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> > On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: > > The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 k From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Jul 26 06:13:32 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:13:32 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> Message-ID: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? If you read the FAQs then it should be clear. Here’s again the part about free apps. “ If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." Especially the 2nd last line should answer it. Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 26.07.2024 um 12:01 schrieb Keith Martin via use-livecode : > >  >> >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 06:38:37 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 06:38:37 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> Actually I forgot that I had a "lock screen" at the very beginning of my script. And successive "lock screen" cumulate. Therefore the following sequence doesn't update the screen layout : lock screen ...... lock screen ...... unlock screen lock screen Funny how I can get stalled with very basic things sometimes... From General.2018 at outlook.com Fri Jul 26 06:37:22 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:37:22 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> Message-ID: Free Software has no EULA, not Commercial. Freeware has EULA and can be Commercial. Example, software has no cost but has Commercial licence. > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:01, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: > >  >> >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 06:45:25 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:45:25 +0100 Subject: The story so far Message-ID: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> Hi Folks, This has been a busy week and there has been a lot of discussion on here. Thank you to all of you who have contributed to the debate here on this list. I thought I'd post a quick summary of where our thinking is at so far. I obviously spoke to several dozen of you personally prior to making this change. We've now had the chance to speak to hundreds of you which has helped us to gain an even better understanding of our new model and the way forward. This is a big change and no matter how many people you speak to in advance, we expected to learn more after we went live. We are grateful for all the feedback we have had. The new entry price of $440 or $660, which is on average a reduction as it includes a lot more has been well received across most customer groups. It continues to allow hobbyists access to the platform too. The Application Payments model, for those of you creating apps to sell (or as freeware) has been well received. We've had very, very few objections to it and so I think we're pretty confident at this point that it's about as good as it can be. I'm proud of the way we've innovated here to allow small independent vendors to continue to use the platform in a way that most other low/no-code SaaS platforms haven't. We've had a little feedback on making the platform free for public high schools, which has been well received. After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. We still have a couple of outstanding questions about how our model applies to Server for a couple of use cases we didn't come across in our initial consultation and we'll work through those soon. The Internal apps model (for people building apps for use within their own organization) has gone over well in many cases. However I think there is perhaps a bit of a split between those who want to use the new Cloud hosting and data back end and those that don't want to use it, either because you have your own data back end or because you are creating smaller utilities that don't use data. Looking at the market as a whole and including new users, we've spoken to hundreds of people who do want to use the back end and the model and it is sitting pretty well for that group. For those of you that don't, my question is whether we have the volume discounting correct or whether we want to introduce a lower cost model at scale for that specific group. I'm not talking about changing the per-seat-for-commercial-end-users model, we're confident that's the right way forward. Our entire IP is in each standalone, and we have to scale with the value we create to have a successful business. We've learned that in our 20 years of history and the feedback this week has been ok on this point overall. I'm also not talking about changing costs for smaller numbers of seats. The question is whether we as a business want to also serve a segment without the Cloud hosting, at a better volume discount for higher seat numbers. This is a harder question than it looks, because so much of the benefit from the new platform comes from the new data back end. Giving new users a choice early in the process complicates their initial journey with us and potentially creates a confusing decision around one of the best new capabilities. It also has an impact on product engineering and the decisions we take there. On the other hand we want the platform to go on being practical for as many of you as possible. We appreciate your support over the years and this remains very important to us. There is a subset of you who are clearly not going to use the Cloud and for whom the new Internal model is presenting a challenge at scale. We will be reflecting on this question in the coming days. The other lesson from this week is that we need more text based content for those of you that don't want to consume information by video. We'll do some more worked examples on the mini-site next week in that form to help with that. Other than that, I would say this. If you only read this list you might be forgiven for thinking that the new pricing model hasn't been well received. While that’s certainly true in a number of cases (I'm sorry if that’s you!), the vast majority of responses (out of the many hundreds we have had now) are getting on board and generally the sentiment has been good. The initial feedback on the new Create builds from those of you that do now have access to it has also been good. I would ask if you've emailed in to please bear with us, we will get back to you as soon as we can. So overall we've taken an important step forward this week that will enable us to better serve our customers into the future and broadly it has been a success so far. We still have some questions to work on and we will continue to look at those. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:00:12 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:00:12 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Colin, I get that the new model is a disappointment and may not work for you. And I'm sorry about that. We are still considering the question you raised about using the platform alongside Power Apps and whether or not there should be any changes to the model at scale for those not using our data back end. Making changes is hard. We have to make changes in order to have a solid future, there is no other option for us. While I appreciate your feedback and I appreciate you have reasons to be disappointed, as this is a public post I need to correct the record. The price you just posted for that number of users is wildly inaccurate (we did quote you the correct price when I met with you). Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:03:26 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:03:26 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions Message-ID: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> Folks, I'm happy to go on discussing the licensing model in general on here as needed, for example edge cases or things that aren’t clear in the model, as it helps us to hone it. But at this point if you have individual questions about the costs for you under the new model, please email them to support and we can give you an accurate quote and talk you through your options. Otherwise we are going to be going over the same territory here on the list for some time to come! We’ll build out the information pages some more worked examples next week too. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From thatkeith at mac.com Fri Jul 26 07:06:36 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:06:36 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) k From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:42:31 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:42:31 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <49B30B7A-3204-4B0C-8A6B-F81FC7DF2322@livecode.com> Hi Bob, Thanks for posting this. If you ask 10 LiveCode customers what is important to them, you'll get 10 different answers. As an obvious example, I expect that if you were to ask others on this list about mobile, many people would disagree that mobile is less important. I appreciate you don't believe you need some of the new features we are delivering now. That might be actually true. Or it might be that you just haven't had a chance to try them yet. Either way that's ok. Many, many customers do see what we are delivering in Create as the top priority. I also appreciate there are features with reasonably broad appeal that we would like to be delivering sooner. That's an important part of what is driving the change in business model. We are delivering a lot of value, but not capturing it, so moving too slowly for some. We subsidize LiveCode development from our profitable services arm and there are limits to how much we can do that. We simply have to change all that. I would very much like to deliver a consistently better service without running promotions or crowd funding or anything else, just using licensing revenue. There is another context to think about our Create project from too. One of the questions we talk about often internally is - does our platform have what it takes to attract new users at a healthy and sustainable rate? This is something that should be important to you and all our community. The fact is that it takes something very different to attract a new customer today compared to days gone by. We don't have the luxury of standing still. Along with the desire to create a better product for the majority of you who do want the new capabilities, this question strongly contributes to the direction we are taking with Create. Creating and maintaining a strong ecosystem around the platform is vital to us all. A dear friend and mentor of mine has a favourite saying "if you don't like change, you'll like irrelevance even less". So I appreciate the input, and I hope you can understand that it doesn't perhaps create a viable strategy for the platform as a whole. In terms of your own licensing question - either these are commercial apps being created for your company as an employee or you're creating them in your own time and own the IP. You may be able apply Application Payments to the latter case. If you want specific input into your exact circumstance, I'm going to ask you to contact support where we will be happy to help. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 17:55, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. Bob S From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:43:29 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:43:29 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> References: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> Message-ID: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> Would it be better if it just said "Made with LiveCode"? Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 12:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Keith Martin via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: > > Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) k _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:56:06 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:56:06 +0100 Subject: Concerning your licensing questions and contacting support Message-ID: <7C2D1F82-9515-4AC6-818D-F829D34A8E1C@livecode.com> Dear All, Just to add to what Kevin said in his email - if you have specific licensing questions about your particular position, please do email support. If you've already emailed support - thank you, you've done the right thing. Please be patient as we work our way through the large volume of mail received. We will get to you, just as soon as we can. I would ask, please don't resend your email if we haven't yet replied. This just makes the queue even longer and slower to get through. If you got the support autoreply, we got your ticket. Furthermore... please don't email my personal email instead of support at livecode.com. It will delay your answer rather than speeding it up and you do run the risk of it drowning altogether. I do my best to rescue items sent to my personal inbox and forward them to support, but due to the very large volume in that inbox, things can get missed when I'm very busy. Warmest regards to all, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Jul 26 08:26:16 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 14:26:16 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> References: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> Message-ID: You mean without “Non-Commercial Use only”? No, that would not be better. Why? Because the normal user would not read a license file when such is available. “Made with Livecode - Non-Comercial Use only” shows the user right away, that the app is for “private” use only. Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 26.07.2024 um 13:43 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > Would it be better if it just said "Made with LiveCode"? > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 26/07/2024, 12:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Keith Martin via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. > > > Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. > > > The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) > > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From General.2018 at outlook.com Fri Jul 26 09:48:50 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 13:48:50 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: A Freeware app can have commercial use and bound via its EULA. Terms of use, copyright, disclaimers etc etc. Smart Televisions have freeware apps with the commercial profit only coming from the televisions sold. The freeware app has commercial purpose but does not generate income alone. definition :- “Commercial software is computer software that serves commercial purposes. It is created to make profit and can be either proprietary or free. The best example is Oracle. An authorized license is required to use the program, and the code is kept a secret. Thus, it cannot be distributed to third parties. At the same time, there are no restrictions in the package when it comes to features and the period of usage.” On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:53, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? If you read the FAQs then it should be clear. Here’s again the part about free apps. “ If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." Especially the 2nd last line should answer it. Von meinem iPad gesendet Am 26.07.2024 um 12:01 schrieb Keith Martin via use-livecode :  On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 k _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 26 10:53:42 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:53:42 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: after the emails from kevin and heather, this morning, here's hoping we get a discussion of a more typical/traditional corporate app dev tier, because that's what lc is. it's not a db server. it's not an application server, it's a app dev tool, for building standalone, single-threaded, engined binaries. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 8:30 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading > the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in > New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several > apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: > With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a > license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not > work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a > new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > On 7/25/24 11:30, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it > correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would > be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal > users within your company. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My > understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a > “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at > present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, > but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the > application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the > field. > > > > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 > standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I > do not make any money from the app?? > > > > > > Bob S > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > >> > >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > >> > >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there > was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > >> > >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re > incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build > and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer > seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less > than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about > buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The > expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at > the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know > how that will be calculated. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:07:26 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:07:26 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: Hello, I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. Thank you for your assistance. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:07:27 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:07:27 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <9CC69016-C756-48F5-B344-7B1B4747DF09@iotecdigital.com> According to the CEO of Livecode, my scenario DOES qualify as a commercial app, hence my consternation. I will have to pay 3 times what I currently pay now for a license just to maintain status quo, and expanding the number of users of my app is completely out of the question since I pay for the license myself. Bob S > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:02 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > > On 26/07/2024 00:46, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. >> >> Bob S > > Commercial ? I guess so. > > But I don't see that it fits the criteria for "Internal apps"; that category is for apps that have been developed by a company, paying either an employee or contractor to develop it. > > In your case, you did the app in your own time, using your own LC license. You're not employed to do coding, and didn't get paid for any coding you did. The app, and any associated IP, belongs to you - not to any company. It therefore qualifies as an "app for sale". > > So put the app on an AppStore (or sell it directly), and pay the 5% of revenue plus one developer seat. > > Alex. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:13:16 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:13:16 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96518804-F7AA-4F37-AB93-99850B6DA8FF@iotecdigital.com> The solution I came up with was a standalone that I could send messages to. I called it Spinner because I wanted to show a dialog that displayed a message and a spinning graphic while Livecode was processing handlers. I could send commands to show itself, hide itself, display a message and activate the graphic. A progress bar could have been added but I stopped using it for some reason. On MacOS I used Applescript to send commands, but you could use sockets just as easily. I think there are widgets now that will do what you want. My understanding is that widgets can be designed to run independent of Livecode’s single processing thread. Bob S > On Jul 25, 2024, at 11:42 PM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:16:10 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:16:10 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Try wait 1 millisecond with messages then lock screen again. But I have run into this issue where even when I pause execution by some means the screen does not update. I find the whole process unreliable, and by the way when you lock the screen then do something with a datagrid, the screen gets unlocked in the process because the datagrid library for reasons unknown unlocks the screen for certain operations. Bob S > On Jul 26, 2024, at 12:12 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello Terry, > > Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders > the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. > I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting > unlock screen > lock screen > within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but > to no avail. > > Thank you anyway for the idea. > > Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : >> How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? >> From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode >> Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com >> Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar >> Hi list, >> I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, >> precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. >> On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and >> also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final >> layout when the loop is over. >> However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar >> and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. >> How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed >> something, it seems limited to players. >> Thank you in advance. >> jbv >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:24:09 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:24:09 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <9179FE59-9D58-4C35-8914-6E39AFF58BED@iotecdigital.com> Because Kevin’s response to me in this exact scenario where I develop apps myself with I license I pay for myself, but employees of the company I work for use the app for business purposes, was that I have to pay for each user that uses my app. It is a commercial app because it is used in the workflow of the company I am an employee of, but I do not make any money on it, and if I approached my employer and asked for them to pay for it, they would decline. Bob S On Jul 26, 2024, at 3:13 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 11:36:07 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:36:07 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Hi Bob, Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages  without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:41:07 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:41:07 +0000 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> References: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> Message-ID: Concerning hosting, in my case when I initially developed the database for my application, it was hosted on the Livecode servers. When the owner of the company found out he had me take it down because he didn’t want company data on servers he did not own / control. That is probably going to be an issue that crops up with more developers using your hosting services. Bob S On Jul 26, 2024, at 3:45 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: The Internal apps model (for people building apps for use within their own organization) has gone over well in many cases. However I think there is perhaps a bit of a split between those who want to use the new Cloud hosting and data back end and those that don't want to use it, either because you have your own data back end or because you are creating smaller utilities that don't use data. Looking at the market as a whole and including new users, we've spoken to hundreds of people who do want to use the back end and the model and it is sitting pretty well for that group. For those of you that don't, my question is whether we have the volume discounting correct or whether we want to introduce a lower cost model at scale for that specific group. I'm not talking about changing the per-seat-for-commercial-end-users model, we're confident that's the right way forward. Our entire IP is in each standalone, and we have to scale with the value we create to have a successful business. We've learned that in our 20 years of history and the feedback this week has been ok on this point overall. I'm also not talking about changing costs for smaller numbers of seats. The question is whether we as a business want to also serve a segment without the Cloud hosting, at a better volume discount for higher seat numbers. This is a harder question than it looks, because so much of the benefit from the new platform comes from the new data back end. Giving new users a choice early in the process complicates their initial journey with us and potentially creates a confusing decision around one of the best new capabilities. It also has an impact on product engineering and the decisions we take there. On the other hand we want the platform to go on being practical for as many of you as possible. We appreciate your support over the years and this remains very important to us. There is a subset of you who are clearly not going to use the Cloud and for whom the new Internal model is presenting a challenge at scale. We will be reflecting on this question in the coming days. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:42:19 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:42:19 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Well given recent posts this morning I would contact Livecode Support and discuss you specific situation with them. Bob S > On Jul 26, 2024, at 8:36 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. >> >> Bob S >> >> >> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. >> >> My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. >> >> Thank you for your assistance. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 11:53:01 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Colin Kelly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:53:01 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Heriberto, I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for our specific needs. Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along for the ride as the product *nearly* matures I too will have to leave the LC community and seek alternatives… Col. From: use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 To: Bob Sneidar via use-livecode Cc: Heriberto Torrado Subject: Re: Livecode Future Hi Bob, Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 11:55:04 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:55:04 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> Bob, Thank you very much for your suggestion, but I have decided not to continue working with LiveCode. The constant changes in licensing pose a professional risk I cannot afford. I had a similar experience several years ago with Winautomation (now Microsoft Power Automate). They began charging for each automation developed with their app, and the license costs increased dramatically overnight. This forced me to stop using their software, and I am keen to avoid such unpleasant surprises in the future. As I primarily develop small desktop utilities, alternatives like Lazarus, Flutter, Electron, NW.js, or NeutralinoJS are more suitable for my needs. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:42, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Well given recent posts this morning I would contact Livecode Support and discuss you specific situation with them. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 26, 2024, at 8:36 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. >> >> In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. >> >> I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. >> >> As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. >> >> Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. >> >> After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. >> >> Best regards, >> Heriberto >> >> On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. >>> >>> My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. >>> >>> Thank you for your assistance. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 12:04:11 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:04:11 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase in development costs is a major concern. There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide the source code. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:53, Colin Kelly wrote: > > Hi Heriberto, > > I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new > licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for > our specific needs. > Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along > for the ride as the product **nearly** matures I too will have to > leave the LC community and seek alternatives > > Col. > > *From: *use-livecode on behalf > of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > *Date: *Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 > *To: *Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > *Cc: *Heriberto Torrado > *Subject: *Re: Livecode Future > > Hi Bob, > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, > it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small > applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, > a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption > tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each > user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar > one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us > since I only develop desktop applications. > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't > allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on > programming languages  without a big community and free licensing can > lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > > > Bob S > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully > reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company > in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed > several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is > straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need > to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, > but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am > considering purchasing a new license. > > > > Thank you for your assistance. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 12:40:47 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:40:47 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Basically my script takes a list of images, checks the imagedata of every image for possible white areas at the top, bottom, left or right, crops the image if necessary, resizes the image and groups it with fields created on the fly with text data from an xml file. When I simply lock the screen at the beginning of the main loop, everything works as expected. But when I use a group of objects on top of everything to hide the rest, with a couple of unlock/lock screen to update a progress bar and the content of a field in that top group, then imagedata processing stops working. I don't get any error, but it is as if images didn't feature any white area, when some of them actually do. I suspect there is a memory problem or something similar. From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 26 13:03:56 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 13:03:56 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: FWIW, i was thinking about an example of a competing product, and its pricing. here's xojo's "buy" url: https://xojo.com/store/ these are annual prices. it's actually a little less expensive than i would have guessed, but it is what it is. On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 12:05 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode > has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing > to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. > Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and > the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase > in development costs is a major concern. > > There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop > and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for > desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are > much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and > Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide > the source code. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:53, Colin Kelly wrote: > > > > Hi Heriberto, > > > > I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new > > licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for > > our specific needs. > > Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along > > for the ride as the product **nearly** matures I too will have to > > leave the LC community and seek alternatives… > > > > Col. > > > > *From: *use-livecode on behalf > > of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > > *Date: *Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 > > *To: *Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > > *Cc: *Heriberto Torrado > > *Subject: *Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, > > it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small > > applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, > > a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption > > tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each > > user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar > > one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us > > since I only develop desktop applications. > > > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't > > allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on > > programming languages without a big community and free licensing can > > lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > > > Best regards, > > Heriberto > > > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > > > > > Bob S > > > > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully > > reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > > > > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company > > in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed > > several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is > > straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need > > to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, > > but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am > > considering purchasing a new license. > > > > > > Thank you for your assistance. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Jul 26 13:08:14 2024 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:08:14 -0500 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> Message-ID: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > Folks, I'm happy to go on discussing the licensing model in general on here > as needed, for example edge cases or things that arent clear in the model, > as it helps us to hone it. But at this point if you have individual > questions about the costs for you under the new model, please email them to > support and we can give you an accurate quote and talk you through your > options. Otherwise we are going to be going over the same territory here on > the list for some time to come! Well build out the information pages some > more worked examples next week too. Thanks. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Fri Jul 26 13:49:49 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 17:49:49 +0000 Subject: The story so far Message-ID: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Fri Jul 26 19:48:09 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 09:48:09 +1000 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: > > I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not > work on Apple Silicon devices. That’s a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? Neville Smythe From dan at clearvisiontech.com Fri Jul 26 20:19:39 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 00:19:39 +0000 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> References: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: I missed that too. Where can I read the new (and updated) lifetime license policy? -Dan From: use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode Date: Friday, July 26, 2024 at 10:54 AM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: Richard Gaskin Subject: Re: The story so far Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 21:18:46 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 21:18:46 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately, my tests with various M1 and M2 Mac models using the community edition of LiveCode have yielded negative results. 1. The IDE opens but closes almost immediately. 2. Running a LiveCode app compiled for Intel-based Macs results in the error message: "This application cannot be run." I'm unsure if there is a compatibility option I can enable, but it appears that Rosetta 2 does not work with the IDE or the apps. Best, Heriberto On 7/26/24 19:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >> >> I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >> work on Apple Silicon devices. > > Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. > > Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? > > Neville Smythe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From selander at tkf.att.ne.jp Sat Jul 27 02:57:32 2024 From: selander at tkf.att.ne.jp (Tim Selander) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 15:57:32 +0900 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 -- I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! Tim Selander On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >> >> I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >> work on Apple Silicon devices. > > > Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. > > Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? > > Neville Smythe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Sat Jul 27 03:56:47 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 08:56:47 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Mike Just picking up on your email below from earlier. You would be eligible for the 5% if you had it available in a privately accessible part of a web site to download as a standalone. That is, I’m pretty sure, the correct understanding of this licensing. And if you are getting $0 Gross from it, 5% of nothing is nothing. If you are being paid for you app by the company you work for then it is of not only commercial ‘use’ but also commercially profitable, and therefore you would pay 5% on whatever you are paid for said app Gross (ie, not just the net profit - a bit like the 30% gross you would pay to Apple from their AppStore). If I’m wrong, someone correct me. Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 25 Jul 2024, at 17:15, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: > > i'm coming to this conversation, late, because i'm spending very little > time coding, and most of my time managing. > if i understand the pricing correctly, LC wants to charge $440/year for > each mobile device that is running an app that we wrote (we don't have any > publicly available apps, so the 5%, aka the sales commission, wouldn't > apply). > so, for the app that we use on kiosks in our plant, and have messed around > with letting employees put on their own phones, we're talking about > somewhere around $7,000 (16 devices) for our internal app, and another > $20-25k for our customers' apps. > i hope that i'm wrong about that. if i'm not, lc just entered the realm of > uncompetitive for building and running these mobile apps. From sean at pidigital.co.uk Sat Jul 27 04:07:51 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 09:07:51 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: That’s a superb idea. It’s very much like the one for Unreal Engine 5 I use. Theres is something more like $100,000 though. At that tip over point, it is quite a hike in costs though if you’ve been used to paying nothing and suddenly have to start paying $5000. But, hopefully by then you will have earned enough to support the 5% having still $95k left over :D We have to be reasonable. LC’s offer is actually, having done all the sums, actually really good. I feel that the biggest confusion on here is what a seat is and if it’s 5% of gross income from the app or a flat $499. I think that if that was described far more succinctly then all of these questions would disappear. Best Sean Cole > On 26 Jul 2024, at 18:08, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > I hope this is generic enough. > > I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. > > I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. > > I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: From dvglasgow at gmail.com Sat Jul 27 08:01:45 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 13:01:45 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> > On 3 Jul 2024, at 2:05 am, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > There is however > > filter elements of with into tLines; put line 1 of the keys of tLines into tFoundLine > > And that is still very fast on unicode, even though it will find all the lines matching str, not just the first. This can be an advantage or not. [Note does need to be set up to match a whole line] Ooooh! Interesting! I have an app I haven’t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear… Any thoughts/advice welcome. Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 27 10:25:55 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 10:25:55 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: sean, * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", "rapid report verification", it's $1999. * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the dev tools are primitive. * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes the servers. * all three of those products are multithreaded. * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a customer. * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on their phone. From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Sat Jul 27 16:14:53 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 13:14:53 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: Xojo is not true multithreaded. The threads are cooperative, not preemptive. It uses "workers" which are basically helper apps to sort of do multithreads. They are working on preemptive threads but no idea when that will happen. The IDE is written in Xojo so its use of threads is limited. My personal opinion... stay away from Xojo. Their CEO does not listen to customers and they spend more time renaming controls and events then actually adding value to the language. They have different names for controls on each platform, i.e. DesktopButton, IOSButton, AndroidButton so you cannot use GUI code between platforms. Documentation leaves a lot to be desired. I used Xojo for many years until they came out with API2 and started renaming everything just for the sake of renaming. Its a mess now. ---------------------------------------- From: "Mike Kerner via use-livecode" Sent: 7/27/24 9:28 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Mike Kerner Subject: Re: Livecode Future sean, * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", "rapid report verification", it's $1999. * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the dev tools are primitive. * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes the servers. * all three of those products are multithreaded. * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a customer. * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on their phone. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 27 17:23:19 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 17:23:19 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: i appreciate the feedback. we've looked at xojo, a number of times, but never written anything important in it. it was just an option that came to mind, immediately, when thinking about LC competitors, and their pricing. if we we decide to pull the plug on LC and rewrite our mobile apps, xojo would certainly be an environment we would consider. On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 4:16 PM Phil Smith via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Xojo is not true multithreaded. The threads are cooperative, not > preemptive. It uses "workers" which are basically helper apps to sort of > do multithreads. They are working on preemptive threads but no idea when > that will happen. The IDE is written in Xojo so its use of threads is > limited. > > My personal opinion... stay away from Xojo. Their CEO does not listen to > customers and they spend more time renaming controls and events then > actually adding value to the language. They have different names for > controls on each platform, i.e. DesktopButton, IOSButton, AndroidButton so > you cannot use GUI code between platforms. Documentation leaves a lot to > be desired. > > I used Xojo for many years until they came out with API2 and started > renaming everything just for the sake of renaming. Its a mess now. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Mike Kerner via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/27/24 9:28 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Mike Kerner > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > sean, > > * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment > > (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about > > their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to > > unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", > > "rapid report verification", it's $1999. > > * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, > > etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the > > dev tools are primitive. > > * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web > > server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two > > users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web > > clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that > > makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes > > the servers. > > * all three of those products are multithreaded. > > * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether > > 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial > > clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a > > customer. > > * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are > > not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on > > their phone. > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From ambassador at fourthworld.com Sat Jul 27 17:58:39 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 21:58:39 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Mike Kerner wrote: > i appreciate the feedback. we've looked at xojo, a number of times, > but never written anything important in it. it was just an option > that came to mind, immediately, when thinking about LC competitors, > and their pricing. I've been very immersed in vendor evaluation in recent years as I selected a web toolkit to build out some domain properties with. As I worked through that process, one of the things that became clearly useful for a thorough evalution is to not only look at vendor-managed forums, but also discussions beyond those as well, such as social media, etc. For Xojo, a thorough evaluation can benefit from visiting the forum for those who no longer feel comfortable having candid discussion in Xojo's own forum: https://ifnotnil.com/ Caveat: I haven't and don't plan to use Xojo in the foreseeable future, so I'm not endorsing any of the opinions expressed there one way or another. Not having used the product, I can offer no informed opinion about the views of those forum members. But as a content strategist and community builder I monitor many product ecosystems, and have found the discussion there interesting from a sentiment mining standpoint if nothing else. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 27 20:31:42 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:31:42 +1000 Subject: Filtering unicode text Message-ID: David Glasgow wrote > I have an app I haven?t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit > > I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear? I can’t say how Mark's technique would scale up to millions or hundreds of thousands of lines, but certainly in my case of around 1500 lines I got a 10x speedup, from an unacceptable 20 minutes to 2 minutes, processing a text file which had suddenly acquired a singe character requiring unicode. There is a caveat… I said line 1 of the keys is the first found line. That is not correct. Since arrays are stored in an internally determined way, the lines will one reported in an unpredictable order. So you may need to add a Sort overhead. Sort is still fast even for Unicode text, though scaling to millions of lines…I don’t know; hopefully the number of found lines would be small, so that wouldn’t be a problem. Just don’t search for “the”. The take-away lesson is to avoid anything which involves recursively finding line-endings in Unicode text, even if implicitly [A note to Mark W.: I still think the algorithm for “line k of tText” would be worth making more efficient - as I read your comments it uses a general case search processor for Unicode which has to take account of a large number of possible variants of representations of characters.] If your text is plain ascii or native (or if you could process an ascii version of the text for finding strings) the benefits of converting to an array may be less striking. But since the speed-up comes from the random access to the found lines I wouldn’t be surprised to find an advantage even there. The implementation of arrays seems to be extraordinarily efficient. [An OT thought just struck me - is that why NoSQL databases as used in AWC work? I know nothing about NoSQL or AWC but if I go on board with Create I may have to learn.] Neville Smythe From curry at pair.com Sat Jul 27 23:17:37 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 23:17:37 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: > $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. > we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, > for instance, on their phone. Well said! You summed it up perfectly. Thanks. What LC tier would work for you? My experience ... Consulting clients, big and small, have real-life budgets! Many already have servers and don't want to pay arm and leg extra. 5 to 10 users is considered modest, and they want it affordable. Most sure as heck don't want extra app fee if they hire one staff. More attractive 'Internal/Bespoke Apps' pricing for real-life clients: LC data: Halve the current user price BEFORE volume discounts. DIY data: 100 users per current user price! Honor system/trust. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From curry at pair.com Sun Jul 28 00:59:22 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 00:59:22 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking No-Hassle Solution Message-ID: I agreed with Simon on Tracking vs Privacy/Security: > If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" > I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. And old-fashioned busywork/paperwork Hassle to request opt outs - > additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. Solution ... 1. A truly modern and flexible automatic approach. When NOT using LC's data hosting, the Standalone Builder notices. No reason for high cost per user - thus, no reason for Tracking. 2. Or an easy LC data/Tracking opt out system via portal. Need control per project, though - clients/apps vary! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From skiplondon at gmail.com Sun Jul 28 09:14:03 2024 From: skiplondon at gmail.com (Skip Kimpel) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 08:14:03 -0500 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Wow… just catching up on this thread, and I have to say, I am more confused than ever! Not sure the licensing model needed to be this complicated and questioning if LC even knows who its end user is and what we are developing. I don’t mean to be trouble here, and I am probably misconstruing fact / speculation. If so, I apologize. Having said that, one should take notice at radical licensing model change failures, such as Unity. There are lessons to be learned out there. For the record, I love LC and its power and simplicity. I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Best regards, SKIP KIMPEL > On Jul 27, 2024, at 10:18 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > >  > Mike: > > > $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. > > we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, > > for instance, on their phone. > > Well said! You summed it up perfectly. Thanks. > What LC tier would work for you? > > My experience ... > > Consulting clients, big and small, have real-life budgets! > Many already have servers and don't want to pay arm and leg extra. > > 5 to 10 users is considered modest, and they want it affordable. > Most sure as heck don't want extra app fee if they hire one staff. > > More attractive 'Internal/Bespoke Apps' pricing for real-life clients: > > LC data: Halve the current user price BEFORE volume discounts. > DIY data: 100 users per current user price! Honor system/trust. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Sun Jul 28 10:32:14 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 15:32:14 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking No-Hassle Solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 28 Jul 2024, at 06:00, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > When NOT using LC's data hosting, the Standalone Builder notices. > > No reason for high cost per user - thus, no reason for Tracking. From my perspective (I know, I know: cue 'blind men describing an elephant'), this does sound eminently sensible. k From tom at makeshyft.com Sun Jul 28 13:10:35 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 13:10:35 -0400 Subject: Appwrite Cloud & Self-host Integration Message-ID: Hello Y'all... A couple of years ago I found the perfect solution for all my cloud hosting needs for now, and seemingly into the future. https://appwrite.io I am currently using appwrite cloud..... for $15 a month to have scalable cloud infrastructure. They also have a free tier. The best part is however, that whenever I am ready, I migrate my cloud data to self hosted Appwrite. Appwrite is fully open source and continuously improved by a funded team. The featureset is very impressive I can confirm that appwrite rest api works great with livecode. serverless functions can take care of server side functions that you don't want to do through client. It has everything one needs to host an any app in the cloud. So far, I have integrated: - Authentication, email / password. - creating a session - CRUD for database - and object storage upload (currently only small files upload, needs a little work.) - I also have some php serverless functions (which appwrite does as well) that help in server side tasks, like creating a wordpress user when a new appwrite user is created If anyone is worried about livecode's cloud pricing, remember that you don't actually have to use it. I will share my appwrite integration with anyone upon request, and eventually when I have more time I will put it out there on github. I might put it under GPL, so that if someone adds another function to the integration, the library can grow. I have not generalized the handlers yet for general use, but I can do it Just reach out if you have need of it. Thanks, Tom From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Sun Jul 28 15:10:04 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 19:10:04 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 Message-ID: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> Hi David, Here is a script that lets you compare filter operations on lists or arrays. With and without unicode. put it into a button and make a field "fRes" and hold down the option/alt key to test unicode, else it is ASCII. ----------------------------------------------------- on mouseUp put 10000 into tHowMany -- hold down optionKey/altKey to use unicode put the optionKey is down into tUnicode if tUnicode then put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a" & \ " Höfuðborgarsvæðið,a dog is a dog" into tData ## with unicode else put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a " & \ "chicken,a dog is a dog" into tData ## without unicode end if repeat tHowMany put any item of tData & cr after tCollect end repeat delete char - 1 of tCollect put tCollect into tList put tCollect into tForArray if tUnicode then put the milliseconds into t1 filter tList with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split split tForArray by return -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split filter elements of tForArray with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode combine tForArray by return put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime else put the milliseconds into t1 filter tList with "*dog*" ## without unicode put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split split tForArray by return put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split filter elements of tForArray with "*dog*" ## with unicode combine tForArray by return put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime end if put "Unicode: " & tUnicode & ", Lines: " & tHowMany & cr & "List: " & \ tListTime & " ms" & cr & "Array: " & tArrayTime & " ms" \ & cr & the long time into field "fRes" end mouseUp ----------------------------------------------------- Kind regards Bernd From curry at pair.com Sun Jul 28 18:21:49 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 18:21:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Skip: > Wow just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) Skip: > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. Pay full price for developer seats... But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 03:28:33 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:28:33 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Message-ID: Seriously, Curry, you are so good at summing these things up. It's what makes you such a great writer and consultant no doubt. I hope you are heard through this mist. On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 at 23:21, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Skip: > > > Wow… just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! > > Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. > > Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: > > - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' > > - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' > - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) > > - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... > - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' > - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! > - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. > > - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... > - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. > - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) > > Skip: > > > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) > > Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: > Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. > > They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. > > So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! > I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. > > Pay full price for developer seats... > But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! > > I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? > (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) > So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) > > (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - > Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, > so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From dvglasgow at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 03:34:53 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:34:53 +0100 Subject: Filtering unicode text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. As ever, interesting and helpful. Cheers David G > On 28 Jul 2024, at 1:31 am, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > David Glasgow wrote > >> I have an app I haven?t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit >> >> I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear? > > I can’t say how Mark's technique would scale up to millions or hundreds of thousands of lines, but certainly in my case of around 1500 lines I got a 10x speedup, from an unacceptable 20 minutes to 2 minutes, processing a text file which had suddenly acquired a singe character requiring unicode. > > There is a caveat… I said line 1 of the keys is the first found line. That is not correct. Since arrays are stored in an internally determined way, the lines will one reported in an unpredictable order. So you may need to add a Sort overhead. Sort is still fast even for Unicode text, though scaling to millions of lines…I don’t know; hopefully the number of found lines would be small, so that wouldn’t be a problem. Just don’t search for “the”. > > The take-away lesson is to avoid anything which involves recursively finding line-endings in Unicode text, even if implicitly [A note to Mark W.: I still think the algorithm for “line k of tText” would be worth making more efficient - as I read your comments it uses a general case search processor for Unicode which has to take account of a large number of possible variants of representations of characters.] > > If your text is plain ascii or native (or if you could process an ascii version of the text for finding strings) the benefits of converting to an array may be less striking. But since the speed-up comes from the random access to the found lines I wouldn’t be surprised to find an advantage even there. The implementation of arrays seems to be extraordinarily efficient. [An OT thought just struck me - is that why NoSQL databases as used in AWC work? I know nothing about NoSQL or AWC but if I go on board with Create I may have to learn.] > > > Neville Smythe > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dvglasgow at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 03:38:23 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:38:23 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> References: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> Message-ID: <6EC21EEC-4EAB-421D-9FC3-BDE2CF597A8C@gmail.com> Many thanks, I will definitely include this in my testing. Cheers David G > On 28 Jul 2024, at 8:10 pm, Niggemann, Bernd via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi David, > > Here is a script that lets you compare filter operations on lists or arrays. With and without unicode. > > put it into a button and make a field "fRes" and hold down the option/alt key to test unicode, else it is ASCII. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > on mouseUp > put 10000 into tHowMany > -- hold down optionKey/altKey to use unicode > put the optionKey is down into tUnicode > if tUnicode then > put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a" & \ > " Höfuðborgarsvæðið,a dog is a dog" into tData ## with unicode > else > put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a " & \ > "chicken,a dog is a dog" into tData ## without unicode > end if > > repeat tHowMany > put any item of tData & cr after tCollect > end repeat > delete char - 1 of tCollect > > put tCollect into tList > put tCollect into tForArray > > if tUnicode then > put the milliseconds into t1 > filter tList with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode > put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime > > put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split > split tForArray by return > -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split > filter elements of tForArray with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode > combine tForArray by return > put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime > else > put the milliseconds into t1 > filter tList with "*dog*" ## without unicode > put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime > > -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split > split tForArray by return > put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split > filter elements of tForArray with "*dog*" ## with unicode > combine tForArray by return > put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime > > end if > put "Unicode: " & tUnicode & ", Lines: " & tHowMany & cr & "List: " & \ > tListTime & " ms" & cr & "Array: " & tArrayTime & " ms" \ > & cr & the long time into field "fRes" > end mouseUp > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards > Bernd > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From georges at caen.one Mon Jul 29 05:46:31 2024 From: georges at caen.one (Georges Malamoud) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 11:46:31 +0200 Subject: Appwrite Cloud & Self-host Integration In-Reply-To: <46af36ff0f63bf8de9e97383565f6728@caen.one> References: <46af36ff0f63bf8de9e97383565f6728@caen.one> Message-ID: Hello and thanks I use Hostm with LC Server. Very good integration and small prices https://www.hostm.com/livecode-hosting No problem until now Georges > A couple of years ago I found the perfect solution for all my cloud hosting > needs for now, and seemingly into the future. > https://appwrite.io > > https://appwrite.io > needs for now, and seemingly into the future. > > Tom Glod tom at makeshyft.com From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:26:32 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:26:32 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> wrote: From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:26:47 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:26:47 +0100 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> References: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <5E18D94C-B7A7-45E2-A3AC-D055E6583611@livecode.com> Sent off list. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:03 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:03 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <779B0EC4-E6DF-4837-8A36-A86CEF6AC349@livecode.com> Thanks Sean. It’s a big change and we are doing our best to explain it as clearly as we can. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 27/07/2024, 09:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Pi Digital via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: That’s a superb idea. It’s very much like the one for Unreal Engine 5 I use. Theres is something more like $100,000 though. At that tip over point, it is quite a hike in costs though if you’ve been used to paying nothing and suddenly have to start paying $5000. But, hopefully by then you will have earned enough to support the 5% having still $95k left over :D We have to be reasonable. LC’s offer is actually, having done all the sums, actually really good. I feel that the biggest confusion on here is what a seat is and if it’s 5% of gross income from the app or a flat $499. I think that if that was described far more succinctly then all of these questions would disappear. Best Sean Cole From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:21 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:21 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CD3E9AB-A7F1-4DC6-8919-362549530988@livecode.com> Don't forget we have videos that explain both the rationale and the model. https://future.livecode.com Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 28/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Skip Kimpel via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: Wow… just catching up on this thread, and I have to say, I am more confused than ever! Not sure the licensing model needed to be this complicated and questioning if LC even knows who its end user is and what we are developing. I don’t mean to be trouble here, and I am probably misconstruing fact / speculation. If so, I apologize. Having said that, one should take notice at radical licensing model change failures, such as Unity. There are lessons to be learned out there. For the record, I love LC and its power and simplicity. I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Best regards, SKIP KIMPEL From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:36 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: That’s not what Create is. It’s a cloud based environment where we host your apps, run scripts and provide an integrated data backend. There may be other options to move forward available for existing users who contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 15:53, "use-livecode on behalf of Mike Kerner via use-livecode" after the emails from kevin and heather, this morning, here's hoping we get a discussion of a more typical/traditional corporate app dev tier, because that's what lc is. it's not a db server. it's not an application server, it's a app dev tool, for building standalone, single-threaded, engined binaries. From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:55 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:55 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <2033353B-6F48-455E-8870-742DF13A96DB@livecode.com> Precisely. There are free products in the marketplace and products far more expensive than LiveCode too. Appian costs $75 per user with a minimum of 100 users so $7500 per month. Either the benefits that LiveCode bring are worth the price to you or they aren't. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 17:04, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase in development costs is a major concern. There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide the source code. Best regards, Heriberto From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:09 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:09 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Message-ID: We have discussed internally whether to produce an option without the Cloud backend for Create. We're not going to do it. It would create additional engineering costs, confusion about the offering for new users and a lot of the value in Create is elsewhere in the redevelopments we've done not just in the Cloud. People already have lots of questions just figuring out the difference between Internal Apps and Apps for Sale, another option isn't going to be a positive thing. You don't have to use our cloud, but we aren't going to be removing it by default. For those of you that have large internal user packs and are finding this challenging, please contact support directly. We may have other options available for existing customers in certain cases. Kind regards, Kevin On 28/07/2024, 23:21, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode Skip: > Wow… just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) Skip: > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. Pay full price for developer seats... But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:13 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:13 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <111EBB93-D74A-44D1-8559-7FC147310829@livecode.com> Changing licensing terms is not unique to us. One average successful software companies change pricing 3-4 times per year. I'm not sure that all other companies that change licensing have their CEO involved talking to customers either. And remember, we haven't changed the licensing for the existing platform which you can continue to use on the same terms up until its end of life in 2027. The new licensing is for the new platform. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 16:55, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode Bob, Thank you very much for your suggestion, but I have decided not to continue working with LiveCode. The constant changes in licensing pose a professional risk I cannot afford. I had a similar experience several years ago with Winautomation (now Microsoft Power Automate). They began charging for each automation developed with their app, and the license costs increased dramatically overnight. This forced me to stop using their software, and I am keen to avoid such unpleasant surprises in the future. As I primarily develop small desktop utilities, alternatives like Lazarus, Flutter, Electron, NW.js, or NeutralinoJS are more suitable for my needs. Best regards, Heriberto From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:29 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:29 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <8C69B1CD-D947-48D9-8E25-849176DA375F@livecode.com> The charge is not per app, it is per user. You can supply as many apps as you like to any licensed user. I'm sorry if you think LiveCode isn't suitable for your needs. As an existing customer I invite you to contact support directly. Kind regards, Kevin In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 09:45:47 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 09:45:47 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tim, Yes, that could be the problem. All computers I've tested livecode run MacOs Sonoma. Best, Hery On 7/27/24 02:57, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: > It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 -- > I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! > > Tim Selander > > > On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> >>> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >>> >>>   I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >>> work on Apple Silicon devices. >> >> >> Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for  my >> Community work. >> >> Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple >> Silicon? >>   Neville Smythe >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Mon Jul 29 10:07:45 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 07:07:45 -0700 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 10:16:01 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:16:01 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52831113-a29a-4e34-bc99-b8f2c733b075@researchware.com> Because of a change Apple made in Sonoma, only LC 6.9.11 and higher will work on that and future macOSes On 7/29/2024 9:45 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > Hi Tim, > > Yes, that could be the problem. All computers I've tested livecode run > MacOs Sonoma. > > Best, > Hery > > > On 7/27/24 02:57, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: >> It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 >> -- I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! >> >> Tim Selander >> >> >> On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >>>> >>>>   I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >>>> work on Apple Silicon devices. >>> >>> >>> Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for  >>> my Community work. >>> >>> Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple >>> Silicon? >>>   Neville Smythe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 10:35:15 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:35:15 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> Message-ID: <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > >>> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Mon Jul 29 10:57:05 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 07:57:05 -0700 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> Message-ID: <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > >>> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 11:25:37 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:25:37 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> References: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A133D12-996E-48DB-A7EB-FB49CAAA5ACE@iotecdigital.com> I don’t see how that would be faster. You are adding string processing overhead, not reducing it. Arrays work well because you already have an index of sorts (the keys of the array). On Jul 27, 2024, at 5:01 AM, David V Glasgow via use-livecode wrote: I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear… Any thoughts/advice welcome. Cheers David G David Glasgow From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 13:25:23 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:25:23 -0400 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> Message-ID: HI Phill, The subscription and download payment model began in the world of video games with downloadable content (DLC). Many software manufacturers quickly realized that charging for content downloads or monthly application use could be a lucrative business. This model has since evolved into SaaS (Software as a Service) payments. However, this approach is fundamentally unfair, as users must continue paying for the software even if they do not need continuous updates, or they must stop using it altogether. This situation is as absurd as buying bricks and mortar to build a house and then being forced to pay a monthly fee for those materials, even if you do not want your house renovated every six months. This critique is not aimed at Livecode specifically but at the software industry in general. Over time, people will likely begin to reject this business model and seek alternatives. This scenario mirrors the 1980s when people, frustrated with the high prices of mainframes and minicomputers, switched to personal computers. Similarly, those fed up with the exorbitant costs of UNIX systems transitioned to Windows NT and eventually to LINUX. While you can exploit customers for a while when they feel captive, they are much smarter and more resourceful than companies might think. Best, Hery On 7/29/24 10:57, Phil Smith via use-livecode wrote: > Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. > > I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. > > But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions > > I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com ~http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf ofuse-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. > > That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. > > Really don't understand that statement. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > > > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions > > From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. > > However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: > > I hope this is generic enough. > > I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago > > or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books > > or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 > > or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an > > incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few > > requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I > > know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. > > My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. > > I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars > > more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because > > it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are > > now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not > > feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. > > I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is > > required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% > > rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. > > -- > > Jacqueline Landman Gay |jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> > > HyperActive Software |http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> > > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > >>> wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dougr at telus.net Mon Jul 29 13:36:14 2024 From: dougr at telus.net (Douglas A. Ruisaard) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:36:14 -0700 Subject: unsubscribing Message-ID: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for many, many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. Have a good one! Douglas Ruisaard From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 14:08:39 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:08:39 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47FEE99E-5F44-45F6-BF64-797A51A0DB19@pidigital.co.uk> The fallacy to your analogy is that with the new LC Create, you will be paying for (or at least subsidising) the server it is run from and the database storage (even if you don’t make use of it). For LC9 the analogy holds up. But as that’s going away it would seem LCLtd are kinda doing the ‘right thing’ by making it a full service rather than pure software and charge a sub. Sorry, I know that’s triggered a number on here. Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:25, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > HI Phill, > > The subscription and download payment model began in the world of video games with downloadable content (DLC). Many software manufacturers quickly realized that charging for content downloads or monthly application use could be a lucrative business. This model has since evolved into SaaS (Software as a Service) payments. However, this approach is fundamentally unfair, as users must continue paying for the software even if they do not need continuous updates, or they must stop using it altogether. > > This situation is as absurd as buying bricks and mortar to build a house and then being forced to pay a monthly fee for those materials, even if you do not want your house renovated every six months. This critique is not aimed at Livecode specifically but at the software industry in general. Over time, people will likely begin to reject this business model and seek alternatives. > > This scenario mirrors the 1980s when people, frustrated with the high prices of mainframes and minicomputers, switched to personal computers. Similarly, those fed up with the exorbitant costs of UNIX systems transitioned to Windows NT and eventually to LINUX. While you can exploit customers for a while when they feel captive, they are much smarter and more resourceful than companies might think. > > Best, > Hery > >> On 7/29/24 10:57, Phil Smith via use-livecode wrote: >> Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. >> >> I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. >> >> But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" >> Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: Kevin Miller >> Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >> >> I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com ~http://www.livecode.com/ >> >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf ofuse-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. >> >> That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. >> >> Really don't understand that statement. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > >> >> Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM >> >> To: How to use LiveCode > >> >> Cc: Kevin Miller > >> >> Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >> >> From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. >> >> However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > >> >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >> >> I hope this is generic enough. >> >> I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago >> >> or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books >> >> or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 >> >> or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an >> >> incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few >> >> requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I >> >> know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. >> >> My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. >> >> I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars >> >> more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because >> >> it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are >> >> now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not >> >> feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. >> >> I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is >> >> required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% >> >> rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. >> >> -- >> >> Jacqueline Landman Gay |jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> >> >> HyperActive Software |http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> >> >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> >> > >>> wrote: >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From andre at andregarzia.com Mon Jul 29 14:35:44 2024 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:35:44 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a useless conversation. On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for > many, > many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is > boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look > to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > Have a good one! > > Douglas Ruisaard > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- https://www.andregarzia.com Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 15:14:35 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:14:35 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and authored several great books about it, you understand the software and its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, provides a small financial boost. In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and acquaintances. No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. I understand why Douglas is so mad. Best, Hery Best, Hery On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. >> Have a good one! >> >> Douglas Ruisaard >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 15:16:43 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:16:43 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question Message-ID: I have an export routine I am writing and it expects timestamps in the following format: 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z I can output LC dates and times in any format, but I personally have not seen this format before. The "T" is obviously just a delimited between the data and time, but my question is the "Z" at the end? Is this just a delimiter or does it indicate time zone (and in "zulu" time, i.e GMT)? Or something else? Anyone seen this timestamp format before and know the details of it? Thanks in advance, From curry at pair.com Mon Jul 29 15:35:46 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:35:46 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fe38e09-f1e6-491f-ae15-1364a9b3824d@pair.com> Paul: > it expects timestamps in the following format: > 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z Looks like MS Word Comments timestamp? If so, I can advise on the "Z"! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Mon Jul 29 15:39:23 2024 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:39:23 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701dae1ef$071a04f0$154e0ed0$@net> I would think Zulu... Sitemaps use the same format with a time zone offset instead of the "Z" 2022-11-15T11:41:03+05:00 Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 3:17 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Paul Dupuis Subject: Date and time format question I have an export routine I am writing and it expects timestamps in the following format: 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z I can output LC dates and times in any format, but I personally have not seen this format before. The "T" is obviously just a delimited between the data and time, but my question is the "Z" at the end? Is this just a delimiter or does it indicate time zone (and in "zulu" time, i.e GMT)? Or something else? Anyone seen this timestamp format before and know the details of it? Thanks in advance, _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Mon Jul 29 15:44:12 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:44:12 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ... 'Utc date and time values uses "Z" (which stands for zero offset) to represent UTC.' (MS) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 15:47:24 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:47:24 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c34646a-1cd6-468c-87ed-9d9c7eb2e118@researchware.com> Thank you all (and especially Curry for confirming what I though the Z was for) On 7/29/2024 3:44 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > ... 'Utc date and time values uses "Z" (which stands for zero offset) > to represent UTC.' (MS) > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 17:09:37 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:09:37 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Follow up question/request: put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 17:09:34 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:09:34 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: The way I read it was that Doulas was just bored with the conversation and not interested in having the messages pour into his inbox. So he has unsub'd temporarily while we chit-chat about it then come back once the cat in-fighting has gone away. He was upset with us, not the business model. Like he says effectively, this is the "USE" livecode list, not the "Moan About" forum ;) He's kinda right though, isn't he :/ On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:14, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create > small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people > here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For > many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, > provides a small financial boost. > > In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from > small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never > been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and > acquaintances. > > No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new > conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage > remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the > small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about > micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How > can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? > > With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. > > I understand why Douglas is so mad. > > Best, > Hery > > Best, > Hery > > On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > > useless conversation. > > > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for > >> many, > >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing > debacle is > >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who > look > >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to > >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > >> Have a good one! > >> > >> Douglas Ruisaard > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:37:56 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:37:56 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Follow up question/request: > > put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset > > Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? > > It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. > > If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:44:53 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:44:53 +0000 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1A8B75C3-A8DB-4D6A-B6E3-456AFEE78685@iotecdigital.com> Many are losing their ability to maintain internal apps, others are losing their ability to make at least a part of their living. I would not characterize that as cat in-fighting. On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Sean Cole via use-livecode wrote: once the cat in-fighting has gone away. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:55:42 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:55:42 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0182B3D7-A431-416C-A9DB-5936AC426983@iotecdigital.com> That doesn’t work I’ll get back to you. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Convert it to dateitems, then back again. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Follow up question/request: >> >> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >> >> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >> >> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >> >> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 18:02:17 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:02:17 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. function refiXMLTimestamp   -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT   local tTimestamp   get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400   -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space   -- the day of the month   -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name   -- the four-digit year   -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons   -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time   set the itemDel to space   put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm   set the itemDel to comma   convert it to seconds   -- the year   -- the month number   -- the day of the month   -- the hour in 24-hour time   -- the minute   -- the second   -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth   put    char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset   delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset   put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset   -- adjust time to zulu/gmt   add tSecOffset to it   convert it to dateItems   -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC   put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it)           into tTimestamp -- the date in new format   put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format   return tTimestamp end refiXMLTimestamp On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Convert it to dateitems, then back again. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Follow up question/request: >> >> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >> >> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >> >> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >> >> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:14:31 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:14:31 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Simpler than that: on mouseUp put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset -- delete last word of tDateTime convert tDateTime to seconds put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset add tOffset to tDateTime convert tDateTime to long date and long time put tDateTime end mouseUp Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. > > I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. > > function refiXMLTimestamp > -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT > local tTimestamp > get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 > -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space > -- the day of the month > -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name > -- the four-digit year > -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons > -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time > set the itemDel to space > put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm > set the itemDel to comma > convert it to seconds > -- the year > -- the month number > -- the day of the month > -- the hour in 24-hour time > -- the minute > -- the second > -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth > put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset > delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset > put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset > -- adjust time to zulu/gmt > add tSecOffset to it > convert it to dateItems > -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC > put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format > put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format > return tTimestamp > end refiXMLTimestamp > > On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Follow up question/request: >>> >>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>> >>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>> >>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>> >>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:30:20 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:30:20 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: … > put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset … Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Simpler than that: > > on mouseUp > put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime > put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset > -- delete last word of tDateTime > convert tDateTime to seconds > put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset > add tOffset to tDateTime > convert tDateTime to long date and long time > put tDateTime > end mouseUp > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >> >> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >> >> function refiXMLTimestamp >> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >> local tTimestamp >> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >> -- the day of the month >> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >> -- the four-digit year >> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >> set the itemDel to space >> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >> set the itemDel to comma >> convert it to seconds >> -- the year >> -- the month number >> -- the day of the month >> -- the hour in 24-hour time >> -- the minute >> -- the second >> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >> add tSecOffset to it >> convert it to dateItems >> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >> return tTimestamp >> end refiXMLTimestamp >> >> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Follow up question/request: >>>> >>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>> >>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>> >>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>> >>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:34:52 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:34:52 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: > > … >> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset > … > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Simpler than that: >> >> on mouseUp >> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >> -- delete last word of tDateTime >> convert tDateTime to seconds >> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >> add tOffset to tDateTime >> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >> put tDateTime >> end mouseUp >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >>> >>> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >>> >>> function refiXMLTimestamp >>> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >>> local tTimestamp >>> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >>> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >>> -- the day of the month >>> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >>> -- the four-digit year >>> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >>> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >>> set the itemDel to space >>> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >>> set the itemDel to comma >>> convert it to seconds >>> -- the year >>> -- the month number >>> -- the day of the month >>> -- the hour in 24-hour time >>> -- the minute >>> -- the second >>> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >>> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >>> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >>> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >>> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >>> add tSecOffset to it >>> convert it to dateItems >>> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >>> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >>> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >>> return tTimestamp >>> end refiXMLTimestamp >>> >>> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>>> >>>> Bob S >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Follow up question/request: >>>>> >>>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>>> >>>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>>> >>>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 18:39:32 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:39:32 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: While I appreciate the feedback, we have spent millions of dollars in platform development and we are not going to sell the new platform with a business model that is not sustainable. That would not be in the interests of any of our customers, the community or the longevity of the platform as a whole. No amount of feedback from a small but vocal minority is going to change this situation. The majority of customers who have contacted us directly - and an order of magnitude more have done so than have posted publicly, including customers of all shapes and sizes, have been positive about the changes and willing to work with us. Our platform has been around in one form or another for an exceptionally long time. The industry is changing and we need to reinvent ourselves along with everyone else. We have done so in the past in different ways and with your support we can do so now. If you are one of those customers than I would like to thank you for your understanding, it is greatly appreciated. If you are an existing LiveCode customer with an active license who has been adversely affected by the new licensing changes, then please contact support at livecode.com where we will be very happy to assist you. It is possible there may be additional options available for you that are not available here in this public forum. Kind regards, Kevin PS. I'm not entirely sure I understand (yet) why this is such a deal breaker for you. At 200-300 euros a month adding a $150 (annual) seat is an additional 11.55 eur monthly cost. Nor is it clear you have applied the correct new licensing model for your situation. But anyway let's take this off list and we can go through it properly and see how we can help. Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 20:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and authored several great books about it, you understand the software and its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, provides a small financial boost. In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and acquaintances. No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. I understand why Douglas is so mad. Best, Hery Best, Hery On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. >> Have a good one! >> >> Douglas Ruisaard >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 19:11:12 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:11:12 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Thanks! You math to do the offset is much simpler. On 7/29/2024 6:34 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: >> >> Actually its possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: >> >> >>> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset >> >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Simpler than that: >>> >>> on mouseUp >>> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >>> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >>> -- delete last word of tDateTime >>> convert tDateTime to seconds >>> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >>> add tOffset to tDateTime >>> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >>> put tDateTime >>> end mouseUp >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >>>> >>>> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >>>> >>>> function refiXMLTimestamp >>>> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >>>> local tTimestamp >>>> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >>>> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >>>> -- the day of the month >>>> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >>>> -- the four-digit year >>>> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >>>> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >>>> set the itemDel to space >>>> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >>>> set the itemDel to comma >>>> convert it to seconds >>>> -- the year >>>> -- the month number >>>> -- the day of the month >>>> -- the hour in 24-hour time >>>> -- the minute >>>> -- the second >>>> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >>>> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >>>> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >>>> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >>>> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >>>> add tSecOffset to it >>>> convert it to dateItems >>>> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >>>> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >>>> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >>>> return tTimestamp >>>> end refiXMLTimestamp >>>> >>>> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>>>> >>>>> Bob S >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow up question/request: >>>>>> >>>>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>>>> >>>>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 29 19:12:11 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:12:11 +0000 Subject: unsubscribing Message-ID: <5ed91a5aa619588f6d0dc243173fad3edc701b50@fourthworld.com> Whether discussing the viability of the LC platform is "boring" compared to every list subscriber receiving email notifications of the comings and goings of one member, he may have a point. The company appears firmly committed to their plans to replace it with a new platform. Any remaining details involving licensing fees have been requested to be handled in private. Any implications for attracting newcomers haven't been part of this discussion. And some of the business planning for folks uncertain about things may not involve using LiveCode at all. So perhaps a use-livecode list isn't the best place. If a consensus emerges that perhaps business planning conversations would be better handled elsewhere, I could dust off the forum at livecodejournal.com. Wouldn't take but a few minutes if enough people would prefer it. But while we're here in a thread titled "unsubscribing", let's take just a moment to review this list's history. Literally. Take a look: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ Look at the right-hand column. That's the size of each month's conversation here. We used to measured list activity in number of posts per day. Over the last year it's more easily measured in number of days between posts. Take a scroll through the last time a month's archive was 1 MB: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2006-March/date.html Look at all the names there, names of friends and colleagues who have moved on. Some of moved on from this planet, like the venerable Brahmanathaswami. Most have just moved on to something else. They didn't just unsubscribe from this list. They unsubscribed from the platform. So let's please remain kind to one another, and continue to seek meaningful solutions for practical business needs on all sides. If that can be done here, we're already here. If it's better moved, we can move it. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com Andre Garzia wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite > impactful toevery developer here as it dictates how the move > forward, hardless a useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing >> debacle is boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority >> of us who look to this forum for meaningful and useful information. >> I'm going to unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has >> run it course. >> Have a good one! >> From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 19:50:29 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:50:29 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/2024 6:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Simpler than that: > > on mouseUp > put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime > put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset > -- delete last word of tDateTime > convert tDateTime to seconds > put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset > add tOffset to tDateTime > convert tDateTime to long date and long time > put tDateTime > end mouseUp (tOffset / 100)  isn't quite right as the time zone offset (i.e. something like -0400) is actually hhmm, so an offset like NewFoundLand -0330, if divided by 100 becomes 3.3 when it should be 3.5 since 30 minutes if half and hour. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 19:52:59 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:52:59 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <19A5AE38-0A98-4262-8DF2-855BD3956B19@iotecdigital.com> Yeah but I think I got the math backwards. -0400 means the GMT is 4 hours AHEAD not behind. It should be subtract tOffset from tDateTime. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 4:11 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks! You math to do the offset is much simpler. > > On 7/29/2024 6:34 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: >>> >>> Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: >>> >>> … >>>> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset >>> … >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Simpler than that: >>>> >>>> on mouseUp >>>> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >>>> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >>>> -- delete last word of tDateTime >>>> convert tDateTime to seconds >>>> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >>>> add tOffset to tDateTime >>>> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >>>> put tDateTime >>>> end mouseUp >>>> >>>> Bob S >>>> >>>> From mailkeliko01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 01:41:21 2024 From: mailkeliko01 at gmail.com (Riko Abadi) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 12:41:21 +0700 Subject: Clarification Needed: Coding vs. Drag-and-Drop in LiveCode Create Universal Message-ID: Hello Kevin, Does LiveCode Create Universal mean that we can no longer write code and have to rely solely on drag-and-drop like no-code platforms? I believe no-code platforms are a waste of time since they are ultimately built with code. From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Tue Jul 30 03:00:55 2024 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 02:00:55 -0500 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19102712458.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Similar to Bob's but includes the delimiters: -- create UTC timestamp: -- format: "2013-07-20T00:00:00Z" put the seconds into tTime convert tTime to dateitems subtract (char 1 to -3 of last word of the internet date) from item 4 of tTime convert tTime to dateitems set the numberformat to "00" put item 1 of tTime &"-"& (item 2 of tTime)+0 &"-"& (item 3 of tTime)+0 & "T" & (item 4 of tTime)+0 &":"& \ (item 5 of tTime)+0 &":"& (item 6 of tTime)+0 & "Z" into tTimestamp -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 29, 2024 4:11:37 PM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > Follow up question/request: > > put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 > Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset > > Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT > (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 > +0000)? > > It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle > carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. > > If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and > converting back? (I think this is the answer) > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Tue Jul 30 04:13:02 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 09:13:02 +0100 Subject: Clarification Needed: Coding vs. Drag-and-Drop in LiveCode Create Universal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Riko, This is an excellent question. While Create does include drag-drop no-code tools, it also includes the Script Editor. So you have a choice. Our goal is that you use the point and click actions for those things it does well and write scripts where required. There are two things that are really important here. Firstly, the Actions Editor (our name for our drag-drop tool) actually writes scripts using the LiveCode Script language you already know and love. So you can always go into the script editor afterwards and edit them. Secondly, you can insert scripts as a step within the actions flow. So we make it really easy to go back and forward. Our vision is to provide a no-code tool with all the productivity benefits and ease-of-learning that this brings for routine tasks. Yet without any of the limits inherent to most drag-drop coding systems. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 06:41, "use-livecode on behalf of Riko Abadi via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hello Kevin, Does LiveCode Create Universal mean that we can no longer write code and have to rely solely on drag-and-drop like no-code platforms? I believe no-code platforms are a waste of time since they are ultimately built with code. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Tue Jul 30 06:20:32 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 10:20:32 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question Message-ID: <26228F62-867E-4D60-87A9-89472855E195@uni-wh.de> Similar to Bob's and Jaque's but includes the delimiters: Additionally adds Minutes and +- offsets E.g. Nepal is 5 Hours 45 Minutes ahead of GMT/UTC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- create UTC timestamp: -- format: "2013-07-20T00:00:00Z" put the internet date into tTime put char 1 of the last word of tTime into tAddSubtract if tAddSubtract is "-" then put true into tAdd end if put char 2 to 3 of the last word of tTime into tHoursOff put char 4 to 5 of the last word of tTime into tMinutesOff convert tTime to dateItems if tAdd then add tHoursOff to item 4 of tTime add tMinutesOff to item 5 of tTime else subtract tHoursOff from item 4 of tTime subtract tMinutesOff from item 5 of tTime end if convert tTime to dateItems set the numberformat to "00" put item 1 of tTime &"-"& (item 2 of tTime)+0 &"-"& (item 3 of tTime)+0 & "T" & (item 4 of tTime)+0 &":"& \ (item 5 of tTime)+0 &":"& (item 6 of tTime)+0 & "Z" into tTimestamp put tTimeStamp ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kind regards Bernd From dvglasgow at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 09:14:57 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:14:57 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting Message-ID: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn From andre at andregarzia.com Tue Jul 30 13:24:58 2024 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 18:24:58 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: Heriberto, On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to voice too much in terms of business decisions. It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. -- https://www.andregarzia.com Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 30 15:05:16 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:05:16 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: We could make a compelling case for airing business and licensing details in public, or in private. For Livecode, as a company that is already poor on the spectrum of transparency and communication, and at times truth-telling. (though improving) I vote NO to taking the conversations private. If you are wondering what I mean ..... No public roadmap on what is going to get done or not going to get done any time soon. Lack of candor is all statements made, such as not addressing the fact that we have funded features you have not delivered (when telling us you spend more on the platform than you make.) The community as a whole has no clue if the script compiler will ever happen......... Those are 2 examples. Sooooooo ... I say having to make public statements as part of the new future of livecode might be a good thing. Why is anyone trying to decide what gets talked about here and what doesn't to begin with? Is it spam? no. Is it livecode related, yes. On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 1:26 PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Heriberto, > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > -- > https://www.andregarzia.com > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From thatkeith at mac.com Tue Jul 30 15:11:21 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 20:11:21 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has come if you're no longer subscribed? k From kevin at livecode.com Tue Jul 30 17:32:52 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 22:32:52 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Jul 30 18:10:57 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 00:10:57 +0200 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? Regards, Matthias > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dougr at telus.net Tue Jul 30 18:23:17 2024 From: dougr at telus.net (Douglas A. Ruisaard) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:23:17 -0700 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> Message-ID: <3e2701dae2cf$13e3ba10$3bab2e30$@telus.net> Old men get to be grumpy ... it's one of the few "benefits" of getting to my age, that and being selectively hard of hearing, seriously wondering why youngsters get tattoos on their faces and admiring beautiful women without them being offended. I actually *do* have this forum's incoming already filtered to a certain degree but really felt that the topic had run its course sufficiently to have the members "move on". I have, over the past few decades, greatly admired and benefitted from the sage advice, examples and knowledge that members of this group have selflessly donated to our collective skills and successes. But the licensing thread seemed to have become redundant, unproductive and (IMHO) having little relevance to the "normal" precise and valuable guidance and lessons I often have found amongst these discussions ... hence my response. It is a misunderstanding that I was criticizing the nature of the topic ... simply the duration, lack of direction and (to me) its eventual deficiency of relevance to what I believe to be the beneficial aspects of the "normal" technical topics presented and discussed. If anything, I felt that the topic content may have produced much more confusion and anxiety in many of the participants rather than aiding them in understanding what seems to be a fairly complex subject and highly specific to individual environments. I forgot to mention the acceptable advantage of being astonishingly selfish once you reach your golden years and beyond. As to when I will rejoin ... once I get bored with NOT hearing the wisdom of the members. Interesting that shortly after my diatribe, that topic seems to have dissipated. I continue to wish everyone success in their endeavors and will, no doubt, open the window on your knowledge in the future. Douglas Ruisaard -----Original Message----- From: Keith Martin Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 12:11 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Douglas A. Ruisaard Subject: Re: unsubscribing > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run its course. Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has come if you're no longer subscribed? k From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 31 12:11:36 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 17:11:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Message-ID: <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> There are three packages. Create Native is our desktop tool for building desktop/mobile/server. Create Cloud for building Web apps. That’s what Xavvi now is. And Universal is the combination the two. Native will deploy to HTML5 either via the standalone builder or our cloud (with one click) if you have a Universal license. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 23:10, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? Regards, Matthias > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode >: > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" > > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:01:41 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:01:41 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library Message-ID: Hi all. Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] put tLine +1 into tNewLine if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex else put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgNextIndexOfLine getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] put tLine -1 into tNewLine if tNewLine <1 then put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex else put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgPrevIndexOfLine You are welcome. :-) Bob S From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:22:26 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:22:26 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F0F9F63-DE07-4609-8849-11A7C0BBFA96@iotecdigital.com> Correction, dgLines is not a property of a datagrid. The dgHilitedLines is, but are only sequential when the data is first loaded. If resorted by clicking a column header, the dgHilitedLines will no longer be sequential. Bob S On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:29:02 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:29:02 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. Bob S > On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi all. > > Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. > > Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. > > And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. > > So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: > > getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] > put tLine +1 into tNewLine > > if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then > put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex > else > put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex > end if > > return tIndex > end dgNextIndexOfLine > > getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] > put tLine -1 into tNewLine > > if tNewLine <1 then > put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex > else > put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex > end if > > return tIndex > end dgPrevIndexOfLine > > You are welcome. :-) > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alekseyfomichev53 at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 14:29:08 2024 From: alekseyfomichev53 at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:29:08 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Schwoertzig, how are you?! Contact me on this website ! ср, 31 июл. 2024 г. в 16:00, : > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: unsubscribing (Andre Garzia) > 2. Re: unsubscribing (Tom Glod) > 3. Re: unsubscribing (Keith Martin) > 4. Re: Livecode Create hosting (Kevin Miller) > 5. Re: Livecode Create hosting (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) > 6. RE: unsubscribing (Douglas A. Ruisaard) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 18:24:58 +0100 > From: Andre Garzia > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: > < > CAF3jwTnO8B-xBO+bn8+dsOv98Sd-ACm_6NHBsstY1CE_b7QS9g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Heriberto, > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > -- > https://www.andregarzia.com > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:05:16 -0400 > From: Tom Glod > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: > PLMAP_Y46GexM30mF54+-A at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > We could make a compelling case for airing business and licensing details > in public, or in private. > For Livecode, as a company that is already poor on the spectrum of > transparency and communication, and at times truth-telling. > (though improving) > I vote NO to taking the conversations private. > > If you are wondering what I mean ..... > > No public roadmap on what is going to get done or not going to get done any > time soon. > Lack of candor is all statements made, such as not addressing the fact that > we have funded features you have not delivered (when telling us you spend > more on the platform than you make.) > The community as a whole has no clue if the script compiler will ever > happen......... > Those are 2 examples. > > Sooooooo ... I say having to make public statements as part of the new > future of livecode might be a good thing. > > Why is anyone trying to decide what gets talked about here and what > doesn't to begin with? > Is it spam? no. Is it livecode related, yes. > > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 1:26?PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Heriberto, > > > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping > away > > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the > short-lived > > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had > a > > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about > being > > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades > and > > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > > > -- > > https://www.andregarzia.com > > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 20:11:21 +0100 > From: Keith Martin > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291 at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I'm going to > > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > > Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to > archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel > things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has > come if you're no longer subscribed? > > k > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 22:32:52 +0100 > From: Kevin Miller > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Livecode Create hosting > Message-ID: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449 at livecode.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. > That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can > embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). > For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our > cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > ?On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, > but exactly what does ?hosting? mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? > Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, > or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn < > https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/>> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 00:10:57 +0200 > From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Livecode Create hosting > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Kevin, > > please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. > I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might > have missed something. > Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the > development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? > > Regards, > Matthias > > > > > > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>: > > > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our > cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or > you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted > by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in > our cloud. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > ?On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but > me, but exactly what does ?hosting? mean in this context? > > > > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? > Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, > or some other sort of thing? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > > > > > > LinkedIn < > https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/>> > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:23:17 -0700 > From: "Douglas A. Ruisaard" > To: "'Keith Martin'" , "'How to use LiveCode'" > > Subject: RE: unsubscribing > Message-ID: <3e2701dae2cf$13e3ba10$3bab2e30$@telus.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Old men get to be grumpy ... it's one of the few "benefits" of getting to > my > age, that and being selectively hard of hearing, seriously wondering why > youngsters get tattoos on their faces and admiring beautiful women without > them being offended. I actually *do* have this forum's incoming already > filtered to a certain degree but really felt that the topic had run its > course sufficiently to have the members "move on". I have, over the past > few decades, greatly admired and benefitted from the sage advice, examples > and knowledge that members of this group have selflessly donated to our > collective skills and successes. But the licensing thread seemed to have > become redundant, unproductive and (IMHO) having little relevance to the > "normal" precise and valuable guidance and lessons I often have found > amongst these discussions ... hence my response. > > It is a misunderstanding that I was criticizing the nature of the topic ... > simply the duration, lack of direction and (to me) its eventual deficiency > of relevance to what I believe to be the beneficial aspects of the "normal" > technical topics presented and discussed. If anything, I felt that the > topic content may have produced much more confusion and anxiety in many of > the participants rather than aiding them in understanding what seems to be > a > fairly complex subject and highly specific to individual environments. I > forgot to mention the acceptable advantage of being astonishingly selfish > once you reach your golden years and beyond. > > As to when I will rejoin ... once I get bored with NOT hearing the wisdom > of > the members. Interesting that shortly after my diatribe, that topic seems > to have dissipated. I continue to wish everyone success in their endeavors > and will, no doubt, open the window on your knowledge in the future. > Douglas Ruisaard > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Martin > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 12:11 PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Douglas A. Ruisaard > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > > > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode > wrote: > > > > I'm going to > > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run its course. > > Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to > archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel > things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has > come > if you're no longer subscribed? > > k > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 > ********************************************* > From jeff at siphonophore.com Wed Jul 31 14:54:13 2024 From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 14:54:13 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: <3D20A158-CB00-4959-901E-B72242BF4A1B@siphonophore.com> I posted about my more odd ball situation with live code. Kevin answered with some solutions for seats for exhibit machines which could be a solution, but unfortunately I doubt the royalty solution for educational content software would not fly with the clients. As I stated it’s all ok since I’m sort of sliding into retirement and this is just sort of a door closer of a door already swinging shut. But having worked with MetaCard/Livecode for 30+ years as my business and chatting with a few off list, I could not help stop thinking thru the issues and looking for solutions as well as just standing back and looking at the bigger picture some. Live code has been changing slowly for a long time from a do everything super HyperTalk to more of a main stream rapid application builder. This is following the trends in the industry and there’s and app for that culture in general. The evolution to the Create system and the new licensing structure just cement all that in place. I get it it’s the way LC must go to survive as a business. I’m sure the new systems would have the potential to keep doing my work, but I’m sure multimedia aspects that are central to my projects will not be super high priority for newer versions of Create. AI stuff I see as mainly getting in the way for me, but hopefully it can be turned off or pushed aside when needed to. New licensing and Create direction would definitely not be a revenue generator for me just a lot more costs and hassles and I would most likely end up heading out to a new platform which wouldn’t be a large investment with no increase in revenue. But it made me step back and look at my clients some more and think. One issue I had not thought about in all this kurfuffle is how would my clients react to the new LC outside of the licensing costs and the hit by the bus questions pop up. Being a one hand clapping with all the programming on our projects I always have to be ready for these questions from clients and have potential solutions ready. The smart client always ask these questions and I try to only work with smart clients if I can. One, they would ask ok with this is a subscription model now, what happens if LC jacks the price way up here next year or worse goes out of business. A rapid price rise would be tough as these projects once done or released are sort of set, no new budgets or funding to pay for a higher subscription is there with my clients. I could see Kevin and team coming up with a solution for those of us stuck in transition to get some lock ins, exceptions, and such. It also sounds like as long as things are kept local things would keep running in LC’s demise and it would then require the use of a different coding system for the next project, but as long as the current projects are up and running that’s ok as they usually just keep running on with little or no fixes needed. Ok, that hit by the bus question answered. The other big hit by the bus question that then came to mind was the one most often asked, what if I get hit by the bus. My solution to this has always been to have cultivated a few friends and colleagues who I know could easily do my work if paid for it decently and give that list to my clients. Dangerous some would say, but I’m careful with who I work with and trust my clients. I’m usually cheaper to the client due to the fact I do 3 or 4 roles on the projects and for them to hire someone just for coding and the others to do the rest it would get expensive and more management and potential issues and my education clients are in slim budgets, so I doubt they would try to use the list other than if I were hit by the bus (AFAIK none ever did anything with the lists). But now I’m realizing with the large turn in LC direction cemented in place there probably won’t be any odd balls out there in the future with the new business app world that I can use for this list in the future (they will most likely migrated elsewhere). This, I realized was a more important gotcha if I were continuing in my business. If the licensing issues could get solved this one would be a hard one to get around and end up forcing me off into a new system anyway. Just some knoodling I’ve been doing and thought I would throw it out for others odd balls to naw on or just ignore it. Also just wanted to thank this list for the many years of great information sharing and help with problems. I only had a few issues ever that I brought here or had solutions for others, but I learned tons from the information shared here, many times not stuff I needed at the moment, but later useful when I did! Folks here also kept this a great list to keep looking at over many, many years. Thanks. And a big thanks to Kevin and all the LC team, it’s been grand to keep on using HyperTalk to do more and more things that folks would say “you can’t do that with HyperTalk!”, but then you could show them you could… best wishes in the new course charted. So long ant thanks for all the fish! Jeff From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Jul 31 15:04:53 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 21:04:53 +0200 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> Message-ID: <72719F86-926E-4213-924A-71AD19CD6442@m-r-d.de> Kevin, Thank you very much for clarifying. I was not sure about HTML5 as deployment platform. Regards, Matthias > Am 31.07.2024 um 18:11 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > There are three packages. Create Native is our desktop tool for building desktop/mobile/server. Create Cloud for building Web apps. That’s what Xavvi now is. And Universal is the combination the two. Native will deploy to HTML5 either via the standalone builder or our cloud (with one click) if you have a Universal license. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 23:10, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Kevin, > > > please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. > I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. > Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? > > > Regards, > Matthias > > > > > > > > >> Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode >: >> >> Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" > > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >> Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? >> >> >> Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> David G >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> David Glasgow >> Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist >> Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University >> Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit >> Carlton Glasgow Partnership >> Director, Child & Family Training, York >> >> >> >> >> LinkedIn >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Wed Jul 31 15:20:57 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 15:20:57 -0400 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. On 7/31/2024 2:29 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi all. >> >> Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? Its not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. >> >> Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there wont be another line hilited until your code sets it. >> >> And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. >> >> So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: >> >> getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] >> put tLine +1 into tNewLine >> >> if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >> else >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >> end if >> >> return tIndex >> end dgNextIndexOfLine >> >> getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] >> put tLine -1 into tNewLine >> >> if tNewLine <1 then >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >> else >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >> end if >> >> return tIndex >> end dgPrevIndexOfLine >> >> You are welcome. :-) >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 31 15:34:45 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:34:45 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! I wonder how that got past moderation. Heather is extra-ordinarily busy at the moment though. :D On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:29, Jess via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Schwoertzig, how are you?! Contact me on this website > > .... > > ср, 31 июл. 2024 г. в 16:00, : > > From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 31 15:59:07 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 15:59:07 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for instance, as da From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 31 16:02:03 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 16:02:03 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for instance, as far as I understand, I can deploy for all platforms. But in my situation I only need MacOS and Windows. So I have the feeling that I will ask my clients to pay for stuff they don't need... Please correct me if I'm wrong. jbv From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 16:15:36 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:15:36 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Hmmm… I will look into that. Another way is to record the current index(s), set the dgData of the grid to it’s own data (resets the lines to the visible order) then restore the hilited index(s), get the hilted line, THEN get the next line. That seems too convoluted so I will look into using indexes. Bob S > On Jul 31, 2024, at 12:20 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" > You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. > > > On 7/31/2024 2:29 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi all. >>> >>> Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. >>> >>> Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. >>> >>> And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. >>> >>> So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: >>> >>> getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] >>> put tLine +1 into tNewLine >>> >>> if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >>> else >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >>> end if >>> >>> return tIndex >>> end dgNextIndexOfLine >>> >>> getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] >>> put tLine -1 into tNewLine >>> >>> if tNewLine <1 then >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >>> else >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >>> end if >>> >>> return tIndex >>> end dgPrevIndexOfLine >>> >>> You are welcome. :-) >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 16:34:41 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:34:41 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Not nearly as sexy, but it does what I need it to. getProp dgNextIndex [tIndex] put the dgIndexes of me into tIndexes put itemOffset(tIndex, tIndexes) into tItem if tItem = the the number of items of tIndexes then put item tItem of tIndexes into tIndex else put item tItem +1 of tIndexes into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgNextIndex getProp dgPrevIndex [tIndex] put the dgIndexes of me into tIndexes put itemOffset(tIndex, tIndexes) into tItem if tItem = 1 then put item tItem of tIndexes into tIndex else put item tItem -1 of tIndexes into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgPrevIndex > On Jul 31, 2024, at 12:20 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" > You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. > > From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 31 17:15:55 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 22:15:55 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> References: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <5F6D6CB5-DF21-476D-B0F9-186E3E6CFB67@pidigital.co.uk> That’s called “value for money”. You get the thing you want for the cost of what we were paying (approx) plus the potential for a heap more if they ever Do want or need it in the future. I think it’s pretty good. Especially for less than $40/mth. In context, I pay for Adobe creative cloud at £57/mth. Every month. But I pretty much only use After Effects, photoshop and occasionally Illustrator and Premiere Pro. Very very occasionally I use Dreamweaver and Acrobat Pro. But there are tonnes of other apps I am paying for that sit there that I have never used and never likely to. But I might one day. I also pay for plugin packs I pay on subscription. 90% of the plugins I have probably never used. But I have them for when I do. I have wondered if it might be good for LC to offer a one off lifetime payment for 9&10 when they finally go unsupported. Just a thought. We’ll have to wait and see. All the best Sean Cole > On 31 Jul 2024, at 21:02, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very > disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for > instance, as far as I understand, I can deploy for > all platforms. But in my situation I only need MacOS > and Windows. > So I have the feeling that I will ask my clients to > pay for stuff they don't need... > Please correct me if I'm wrong. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dochawk at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 20:51:50 2024 From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 17:51:50 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> References: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Heriberto honked, > In the early 90s, I detected a bug when installing Microsoft Office alongside Corel Draw on Windows 95. I called Microsoft, and two weeks later, I received a diskette with a patch that resolved the issue. Somewhere in my files I have a (typed!) letter from Microsoft from 1989 or 1990 responding to my suggestion as a software developer suggesting that BASIC be attached to MS Word. The gist was that it was an intriguing idea, but they had no plans for such a thing. At the time, I was using hypercard to pre-process information to a feeder file for word’s mail merge for part of my filing, and stepping through cards to print the rest kevin kibitzed, > Don't forget we have videos that explain both the rationale and the model. https://future.livecode.com You say the as if expecting someone to view a video to get information wasn’t an act of Evil . . . :) As for myself, I certainly won’t be going to the new platform; it has nothing useful for me, and I abhor the notion of a computer or “AI” interfering with code (in fact, this should be very tightly regulated). My project never ended up at a full commercial release. It’s essentially done, but I would have had to self-implement two of the still-missing features (encrypted postgres session and exporting a pdf from the pdf widget [no, putting it back at 72dpi does not count!]). I pretty much stopped cold when the pdf widget failed to be printable, making only the changes I needed for my own practice, and now I’m retired with absolutely no interest on starting a new business or having around to support software. I could reimplement my engine in less than a week in just about anything that has decent string support (HyperTalk, BASIC, Fortran, Python, whatever). Another day or two for a translator to export the internal functions on how data relates and is calculated. And then whatever method for superimposing my own text on pdf, and converting to PDF/A. The only interest I have in my supposedly lifetime “Indy” license, which I bought because livecode seemed to be in a crunch and needed it, is future toy project for myself. And I just can’t see paying hundreds of dollars a year for something I probably won’t even use most years! The only things I use that weren’t in HyperCard 2.0 or SuperCard 1.5 (in which I implemented this years ago) are groups, behaviors and chained behaviors, postures, and the in-memory SQLite. I have absolutely no use for any web connection, servers (other than postgres), or AI. From dick.kriesel at mail.com Tue Jul 2 04:31:13 2024 From: dick.kriesel at mail.com (Dick Kriesel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 01:31:13 -0700 Subject: Slow stack problem In-Reply-To: <548217AD-2894-465E-B903-8DC47FAA4C88@optusnet.com.au> References: <548217AD-2894-465E-B903-8DC47FAA4C88@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <07280E11-C947-41AF-9E81-0668454757C1@mail.com> > On Jun 28, 2024, at 3:15 AM, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > I have a solution or at least a workaround Hi, Neville. You may find a worthwhile improvement in speed if you avoid referring to the Unicode lines by their line numbers (as in "line k of fff"). Here's a way: function findLineNumbersInUnicode pLinesToFind, tLinesToSearch -- returns a comma-delimited list of the line numbers of lines that contain any of the lines to find local tRegExp, tLineNumber, tLineNumbers repeat for each line tLineToFind in pLinesToFind put "(^[0-9-]*\t" & tLineToFind & ")" into tRegExp put 0 into tLineNumber repeat for each line tLine in tLinesToSearch add 1 to tLineNumber if matchChunk(tLine, tRegExp) then put tLineNumber & comma after tLineNumbers end if end repeat end repeat return char 1 to -2 of tLineNumbers end findLineNumbersInUnicode If you try the idea, please share your test results. — Dick Kriesel From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Tue Jul 2 21:05:54 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 11:05:54 +1000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank Dick I will try your idea - it may need a small mod, see below. I will probably post some timings later if people are still interested in this thread. Mark’s method of converting to an array of lines to gain random access to the lines has given me at least a 50-fold increase in speed in many of my handlers (perhaps more - my analysis may have been somewhat flawed but I still have the gut feeling LineOffset -and finding line k of text- is at 50 to 100 times slower on unicode than on ascii). So this is the method I have implemented; re-factoring took a few hours but was well worth it] However there is a drawback in using arrays rather than the original text - I often need to search the text, to find the first (or next) line containing a string, and there is no built-in arrayOffset. Binary (logarithmic) search is an extremely fast search algorithm for searching the elements of an array IF the array is pre-sorted appropriately for the search item beforehand, but that doesn’t suit my use-case at all. Sorting the keys of an array according to the contents of elements is another story (combine by return, sort, split by return? Split is OK as a once-off , but it gets expensive if it needs to be done multiple times - splitting 1700 lines of sample text took about 0.1 seconds). There is however filter elements of with into tLines; put line 1 of the keys of tLines into tFoundLine And that is still very fast on unicode, even though it will find all the lines matching str, not just the first. This can be an advantage or not. [Note does need to be set up to match a whole line] I have a LineSearch algorithm alternative for lineOffset which searches for the first occurrence of a targetString in unicode text which avoids finding line endings and which is faster than using the filter method on arrays (particularly if the overhead of converting the text to an array with split by return is added). It uses the fact that matchChunk is still exceedingly fast on unicode (did someone complain that matchChunk appeared to be slow on unicode?? Who was that foolish boy? Wasn’t me Sir!). Slight drawback is you have to escape all the special regex characters in the target string before using the regex "(?m)(?i)^(.*?" & pTargetStr & ".*?)$” but replace is very fast, so this is messy but not a big deal. Big drawback is it gives the text of the line but not the line number, and so the algorithm is not adaptable to skipping lines; your version may answer that but looks like it needs the repeat loop which looks expensive. Hmm, wait, aren’t you looping on “line tLine in tLinesToSearch” which implicitly involves finding the line delimiters in the unicode text, which is back to the original problem? Neville > On 3 Jul 2024, at 2:00 am, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Slow stack problem (Dick Kriesel) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 01:31:13 -0700 > From: Dick Kriesel > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Slow stack problem > Message-ID: <07280E11-C947-41AF-9E81-0668454757C1 at mail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > >> On Jun 28, 2024, at 3:15?AM, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I have a solution or at least a workaround > > Hi, Neville. You may find a worthwhile improvement in speed if you avoid referring to the Unicode lines by their line numbers (as in "line k of fff"). > > Here's a way: > > function findLineNumbersInUnicode pLinesToFind, tLinesToSearch -- returns a comma-delimited list of the line numbers of lines that contain any of the lines to find > > local tRegExp, tLineNumber, tLineNumbers > > repeat for each line tLineToFind in pLinesToFind > > put "(^[0-9-]*\t" & tLineToFind & ")" into tRegExp > > put 0 into tLineNumber > > repeat for each line tLine in tLinesToSearch > > add 1 to tLineNumber > > if matchChunk(tLine, tRegExp) then > > put tLineNumber & comma after tLineNumbers > > end if > > end repeat > > end repeat > > return char 1 to -2 of tLineNumbers > > end findLineNumbersInUnicode > > > > If you try the idea, please share your test results. > > ? Dick Kriesel > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 > ******************************************** Neville Smythe neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au 0414517719 From curry at pair.com Wed Jul 3 08:45:23 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 08:45:23 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! Mark Smith: > My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, Resilience > is my superpower. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. Me: > What doesnt kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Heres hoping for a > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 3 13:51:06 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 13:51:06 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HAPPY TREASON DAY! On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... > Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! > > I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > > Mark Smith: > > > My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > > your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience > > is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. > > Me: > > > What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a > > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 3 18:02:05 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 22:02:05 +0000 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Merry FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY DAY! LOL! Bob S > On Jul 3, 2024, at 10:51 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: > > HAPPY TREASON DAY! > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... >> Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! >> >> I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! >> >> Mark Smith: >> >>> My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing >>> your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience >>> is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. >> >> Me: >> >>> What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. >>> Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a >>> great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Curry Kenworthy >> >> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development >> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" >> https://livecodeconsulting.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 4 01:05:12 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 01:05:12 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> References: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <65b15d21-deb9-471c-a23a-7504ade0d82f@pair.com> Again - I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > What doesnt kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Heres hoping for a > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From david.bovill at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 05:43:33 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 10:43:33 +0100 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> References: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: The results aren't out yet. Heading to the polls.... On Wed, 3 Jul 2024 at 23:03, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Merry FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY DAY! LOL! > > Bob S > > > > On Jul 3, 2024, at 10:51 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > HAPPY TREASON DAY! > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... > >> Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! > >> > >> I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > >> > >> Mark Smith: > >> > >>> My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > >>> your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience > >>> is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. > >> > >> Me: > >> > >>> What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > >>> Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a > >>> great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> Curry Kenworthy > >> > >> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > >> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > >> https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From prothero at ucsb.edu Sat Jul 6 20:50:34 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 Subject: my deployment question Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606@ucsb.edu> The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 13:38:07 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 13:38:07 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows Message-ID: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! Peter Bogdanoff From paul at researchware.com Sun Jul 7 13:58:11 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 13:58:11 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> Message-ID: <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows.  On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. > > This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. > > I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: > > For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* > For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** > > https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ > > Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? > > My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. > > Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! > > Peter Bogdanoff > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 19:56:31 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 19:56:31 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> Message-ID: <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> Thanks, Paul. So, Windows 11 shouldn’t have this issue? > On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases > > Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. > > > On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >> >> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >> >> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >> >> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >> >> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >> >> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >> >> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >> >> I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >> >> Peter Bogdanoff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Sun Jul 7 20:10:47 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> Message-ID: <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks, Paul. > > So, Windows 11 shouldnt have this issue? > > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >> >> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >> >> >> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>> >>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>> >>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>> >>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>> >>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>> >>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>> >>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>> >>> Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>> >>> Peter Bogdanoff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 20:49:22 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 20:49:22 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> Message-ID: <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> OK thanks. Many of our users are college undergrads, some of which appear to have never installed an application on their own computer. Now I have to get them to do a second installation as well. By any chance, can I get my LC application to initiate the LAV filters install? > On Jul 7, 2024, at 8:10 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. > > > On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> Thanks, Paul. >> >> So, Windows 11 shouldn’t have this issue? >> >> >> >>> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >>> >>> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >>> >>> >>> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>>> >>>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>>> >>>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>>> >>>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>>> >>>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>>> >>>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>>> >>>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>>> >>>> I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>>> >>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Mon Jul 8 04:08:08 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 04:08:08 -0400 Subject: Problem with hierarchical menu Message-ID: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have a pulldown menu button with a hierarchical menu on 4 levels. Level 1 features 35 options, and each option can have submenus on 1, 2 or 3 sub-levels. On Mac everything works fine : users can navigate through all options and sub-options with the mouse down like in any menu. But on Windows 10 & 11, at times when the cursor moves back from level 3 to 2, or 2 to 1 for instance, the whole menu gets stalled, and users need to release the mouse and pulldown the menu again. Any idea of what can cause this problem and what I should check ? Thank you in advance. jbv From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 8 07:47:23 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 07:47:23 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> Message-ID: <69c46f0c-9903-4402-a8cc-69cc019d1c06@researchware.com> There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it as a bnfile to the install location. I don't know whether there are any Livecode lessons on the web site on how to do this or not or whether someone else who has done this may have code or tips to share. First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. Livecode 10, before release, is supposed to get updated to use the Windows Media Foundation (and it's wide range of current codec for various media formats). This change (DirectShow to MMF) is not in the current (dp8) version. So a media coded pack (like LAV Filters) for DirectShow is your only option under there is a version of LC 10 that supports MMF. If you set the way back machine, if you wanted to do media on Windows under old versions of Livecode (aka Revolution), you had to install Quicktime for Windows. On 7/7/2024 8:49 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > OK thanks. > > Many of our users are college undergrads, some of which appear to have never installed an application on their own computer. Now I have to get them to do a second installation as well. > > By any chance, can I get my LC application to initiate the LAV filters install? > > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 8:10 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. >> >> >> On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> Thanks, Paul. >>> >>> So, Windows 11 shouldnt have this issue? >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >>>> >>>> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>>>> >>>>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>>>> >>>>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>>>> >>>>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>>>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>>>> >>>>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>>>> >>>>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>>>> >>>>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>>>> >>>>> Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>>>> >>>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From raymondjbennett at icloud.com Mon Jul 8 09:00:43 2024 From: raymondjbennett at icloud.com (Raymond Bennett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 09:00:43 -0400 Subject: my deployment question (William Prothero) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - I don't have time to collect the details at the moment, but here's what I've found: I found the necessary info for deploying to the devices themselves (iPhone, iPad) for test in the Apple documentation. The key - as best I recall - has to do with setting up the provisioning profile on the device. Doing that took me through all of the necessary steps to get it working in concert with LiveCode. Caveat - all of my experience is deploying from a Mac to those devices. Good luck. > On Jul 7, 2024, at 12:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. my deployment question (William Prothero) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 > From: William Prothero > To: JJS use-livecode > Subject: my deployment question > Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606 at ucsb.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. > Best, > Bill > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 4 > ******************************************** From prothero at ucsb.edu Mon Jul 8 11:25:26 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 08:25:26 -0700 Subject: my deployment question (William Prothero) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks.. For some reason, xcode 15.0 didn't install correctly over older versions and I'm investigating why. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 8, 2024, at 6:02 AM, Raymond Bennett via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi William - I don't have time to collect the details at the moment, but here's what I've found: > > I found the necessary info for deploying to the devices themselves (iPhone, iPad) for test in the Apple documentation. The key - as best I recall - has to do with setting up the provisioning profile on the device. Doing that took me through all of the necessary steps to get it working in concert with LiveCode. > > Caveat - all of my experience is deploying from a Mac to those devices. > > Good luck. > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 12:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." >> >> >> you can find the archives for this list at: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ >> >> and search them using this link: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. my deployment question (William Prothero) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 >> From: William Prothero >> To: JJS use-livecode >> Subject: my deployment question >> Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606 at ucsb.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. >> Best, >> Bill >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 4 >> ******************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 8 13:28:12 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 17:28:12 +0000 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows Message-ID: Paul Dupuis wrote: > There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library > or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and > have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file > ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and > if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it > as a bnfile to the install location. ... > First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see > if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. LAV Filters appear to be distributed under GPL v2: https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/blob/master/COPYING This invites an interesting exploration of the boundaries of GPL rights/responsibilities inheritance: does distributing GPL components within an app require the app distributing them to also be GPL? I've seen many cases the other way around, FOSS projects like Ubuntu where some users can benefit from prioprietary packages like NVidia device drivers. Ubuntu and others seem content to have resolved the issue by not including components with incompatible licenses in their distributions, instead providing links the user may choose to follow to install them. But the case in this thread is the inverse, a proprietary system with embedded distribution of Free and Open Source components. I haven't seen this before, so I did a quick search to see how others have handled it. Here are a few of those discussions: "Is it legal to use GPL code in a proprietary, closed-source program by putting it in a separate, standalone program?" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/7078/is-it-legal-to-use-gpl-code-in-a-proprietary-closed-source-program-by-putting-i "Distributing a proprietary application together with GPL software " https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/211250/distributing-a-proprietary-application-together-with-gpl-software "Can I use GPL software in a commercial application" https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/47032/can-i-use-gpl-software-in-a-commercial-application "Can I use GPL, LGPL, MPL licensed packages with my application and make it closed source?" https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/125606/can-i-use-gpl-lgpl-mpl-licensed-packages-with-my-application-and-make-it-close "Proprietary software using GPL modules" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1459/proprietary-software-using-gpl-modules "Can I use GPL libraries in a closed source project if only the output is distributed?" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/2338/can-i-use-gpl-libraries-in-a-closed-source-project-if-only-the-output-is-distrib Spoiler: no one in those discussions has a definitive answer, but there is a general trend toward USING GPL components being viewed as okay but drawing the line at DISTRIBUTING those GPL components within a proprietary app. And given both the rarity and the subtlety of details in such circumstancs, even the GPL FAQ more or less punts on this question: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#ManyDifferentLicenses Of course I'm not an attorney, and even if I were I'm not contracted as your attorney, so nothing I write can be construed as legal advice. But as someone who has a personal hobby of reading IP case law, and has contractual requirements in most of my professional work to demonstrate a reasonable good-faith effort to help my clients avoid potential risks with IP licensing, I tend to err on the side of "When in doubt, leave it out." In cases where the best way to handle someone else's work is unclear, I often find it most useful to get clarification from the author of the work. As the copyright holder, they would be in a position to grant, or deny, specific use cases. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 8 13:43:53 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:43:53 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As customers once had to download and install Quicktime for Windows to use a wide variety of media in Revolution/Livecode Standalones under Windows (XP, 7, 8.x, 10, 11), when QT for Win became obsolete, we just switched to directing customers to download and install LAV Filters instead. They do this as a separate install, done by the end user. So far, this has not seemed to be an issue or inhibited adoption. It also does not run afoul of any licensing issues with embedding LAV Filters in a LC standalone. Regardless, if you want media file parity with macOS on Windows in Livecode and do not want to wait for whatever dp version of LC 10 might have MMF in it, then you need to add a codec pack for DirectShow. There are other options for additional DirectShow codecs to LAV Filters. I can't recall any of them - just that we reviewed a bunch, most of which were commercial and required licensing. LAV Filters was reliable, functional, easy to install, and free. I'm not endorsing it for your application or anyone else's, just noting what worked for us. On 7/8/2024 1:28 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > Paul Dupuis wrote: > >> There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library >> or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and >> have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file >> ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and >> if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it >> as a bnfile to the install location. > ... >> First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see >> if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. > > LAV Filters appear to be distributed under GPL v2: > https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/blob/master/COPYING > > This invites an interesting exploration of the boundaries of GPL rights/responsibilities inheritance: does distributing GPL components within an app require the app distributing them to also be GPL? > > > I've seen many cases the other way around, FOSS projects like Ubuntu where some users can benefit from prioprietary packages like NVidia device drivers. Ubuntu and others seem content to have resolved the issue by not including components with incompatible licenses in their distributions, instead providing links the user may choose to follow to install them. > > But the case in this thread is the inverse, a proprietary system with embedded distribution of Free and Open Source components. I haven't seen this before, so I did a quick search to see how others have handled it. Here are a few of those discussions: > > "Is it legal to use GPL code in a proprietary, closed-source program by putting it in a separate, standalone program?" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/7078/is-it-legal-to-use-gpl-code-in-a-proprietary-closed-source-program-by-putting-i > > "Distributing a proprietary application together with GPL software" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/211250/distributing-a-proprietary-application-together-with-gpl-software > > "Can I use GPL software in a commercial application" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/47032/can-i-use-gpl-software-in-a-commercial-application > > "Can I use GPL, LGPL, MPL licensed packages with my application and make it closed source?" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/125606/can-i-use-gpl-lgpl-mpl-licensed-packages-with-my-application-and-make-it-close > > "Proprietary software using GPL modules" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1459/proprietary-software-using-gpl-modules > > "Can I use GPL libraries in a closed source project if only the output is distributed?" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/2338/can-i-use-gpl-libraries-in-a-closed-source-project-if-only-the-output-is-distrib > > > Spoiler: no one in those discussions has a definitive answer, but there is a general trend toward USING GPL components being viewed as okay but drawing the line at DISTRIBUTING those GPL components within a proprietary app. > > And given both the rarity and the subtlety of details in such circumstancs, even the GPL FAQ more or less punts on this question: > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#ManyDifferentLicenses > > > Of course I'm not an attorney, and even if I were I'm not contracted as your attorney, so nothing I write can be construed as legal advice. > > But as someone who has a personal hobby of reading IP case law, and has contractual requirements in most of my professional work to demonstrate a reasonable good-faith effort to help my clients avoid potential risks with IP licensing, I tend to err on the side of "When in doubt, leave it out." > > In cases where the best way to handle someone else's work is unclear, I often find it most useful to get clarification from the author of the work. As the copyright holder, they would be in a position to grant, or deny, specific use cases. > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dan at clearvisiontech.com Tue Jul 9 13:13:15 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:13:15 +0000 Subject: Google Play Billing Library Version In-Reply-To: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> References: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Greetings! I have an app in the Google Play Store, and I recently got a message from Google Play that says my app is not using the correct Billing Library and I need to update my app to include Billing Library version 6 or newer. I built the app with LC 10 (dp-6). Is there a version of LC that is compatible with requirement? Or, how do I tell which versions of LC include which component versions? -Dan From merakosp at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 14:20:27 2024 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:20:27 +0300 Subject: Google Play Billing Library Version In-Reply-To: References: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Hello Dan, The current most recent versions of livecode use Google's billing library v5.x. Support for v6 of the library will be added in the next release, along with support for building against API 34. Both of them are new requirements for app submission to the Google Play Store, and the deadline is the 31st of August. So you should expect the next version of LiveCode before then ;) Kind Regards, Panos On Tue, 9 Jul 2024, 20:14 Dan Friedman via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Greetings! I have an app in the Google Play Store, and I recently got a > message from Google Play that says my app is not using the correct Billing > Library and I need to update my app to include Billing Library version 6 or > newer. I built the app with LC 10 (dp-6). Is there a version of LC that > is compatible with requirement? Or, how do I tell which versions of LC > include which component versions? > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 12 21:05:31 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 21:05:31 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 Message-ID: Heyall, I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 Methodology is explained in github page. It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the generation. Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. If anyone wants to follow the project, Or help out in testing and correcting. websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the handlers. The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons of time already. It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. I think its a good starting point. Testing will start soon enough. I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, there is some kind of hope. My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode Enjoy. Tom . From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 13 12:20:38 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:20:38 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: cool On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Heyall, > > I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. > So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 > > Methodology is explained in github page. > It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the > generation. > Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. > > Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. > But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. > If anyone wants to follow the project, > Or help out in testing and correcting. > > websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the handlers. > The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons of > time already. > It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. > I think its a good starting point. > > Testing will start soon enough. > I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, > there is some kind of hope. > My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example > streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. > > https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode > > Enjoy. > > Tom > . > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From panos.merakos at livecode.com Mon Jul 15 12:19:03 2024 From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 19:19:03 +0300 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 Message-ID: Dear list members, We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1 comes with 11 bugfixes and performance improvements, including support for building against API 34 on Android, and a new version of Google's in-app billing library used for in-app purchase. Both of these changes are required for new app submissions to the Google Play Store after the 31st of August 2024. Moreover, The CEF browser version has been updated on Windows. You can find more details on the bug fixes and improvements of this new release here: https://livecode.com/livecode-9-6-13-rc-1-google-play-store-and-cef-updates/ You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get it via the automatic updater. Enjoy! Kind regards The LiveCode Team -- From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 15 15:18:11 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 19:18:11 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 Message-ID: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Panos wrote: > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. ... > You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get > it via the automatic updater. Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Mon Jul 15 16:31:27 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 22:31:27 +0200 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> I found the link here https://livecode.com/account/products/livecode and then in the dropdown menu in the second section where the RC builds are listed. See a screenshot here https://livecode.dermattes.de/images/9_6_13_rc1.jpg Regards, Matthias > Am 15.07.2024 um 21:18 schrieb Richard Gaskin via use-livecode : > > Panos wrote: > >> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > ... >> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >> it via the automatic updater. > > Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. > > I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 16:48:40 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 20:48:40 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <6AB502CB-92CB-47EC-986E-FB663A8CB23E@iotecdigital.com> You can also get it from the Check For Updates menu option of the Help menu in LC. Bob S > On Jul 15, 2024, at 1:31 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > I found the link here > https://livecode.com/account/products/livecode > > and then in the dropdown menu in the second section where the RC builds are listed. > > See a screenshot here > https://livecode.dermattes.de/images/9_6_13_rc1.jpg > > Regards, > Matthias > > > >> Am 15.07.2024 um 21:18 schrieb Richard Gaskin via use-livecode : >> >> Panos wrote: >> >>> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. >> ... >>> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >>> it via the automatic updater. >> >> Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. >> >> I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? >> >> -- >> Richard Gaskin >> FourthWorld.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 18:47:47 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 22:47:47 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function Message-ID: I got ahold of a function someone wrote years ago called fwGestalt(). It looks to provide information about the current application it belongs to in a report. However it is calling a function called Bytes2Size() which apparently converts hard drive space from bytes to actual free space. Does anyone have the byte2Size() function? Bob S From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 15 19:07:49 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:07:49 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function Message-ID: Bob Sneidar wrote: > I got ahold of a function someone wrote years ago called fwGestalt(). It looks to > provide information about the current application it belongs to in a report. > However it is calling a function called Bytes2Size() which apparently converts > hard drive space from bytes to actual free space. Does anyone have the byte2Size() > function? That was me (I use the "fw" prefix to distinguish "Fourth World" library stuff). Here ya' go: function Bytes2Size n set the numberformat to "0.#" if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n else put n / 1024 into n if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n else put n / 1024 &" MB" into n end if end if return n end Bytes2Size Things have changed since I wrote that. Might be good to update all the way up to TB. Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 19:24:12 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:24:12 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Thanks Richard. Bob S On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: function Bytes2Size n set the numberformat to "0.#" if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n else put n / 1024 into n if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n else put n / 1024 &" MB" into n end if end if return n end Bytes2Size From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 19:26:28 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:26:28 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <4F299FEC-527C-40A5-8805-1F83FCFA4A26@iotecdigital.com> Spell Correction: Avilable disk space: 454737.3 MB Bob S > On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:24 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > Thanks Richard. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: >> >> function Bytes2Size n >> set the numberformat to "0.#" >> if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n >> else >> put n / 1024 into n >> if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n >> else >> put n / 1024 &" MB" into n >> end if >> end if >> return n >> end Bytes2Size > > From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 15 21:01:32 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 21:01:32 -0400 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: With due credit to Richard for the original, you might want to update it for today's disk sizes, This adds GB and TB function Bytes2Size n   set the numberformat to "0.#"   if n < 1024 then     put n &" bytes" into n   else     put n / 1024 into n     if n < 1024 then       put n &" KB" into n     else       put n / 1024 into n       if n < 1024 then         put n &" MB" into n       else         put n / 1024 into n         if n < 1024 then           put n &" GB" into n         else           put n / 1024 &" TB" into n         end if       end if     end if   end if   return n end Bytes2Size On 7/15/2024 7:24 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks Richard. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > > function Bytes2Size n > set the numberformat to "0.#" > if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n > else > put n / 1024 into n > if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n > else > put n / 1024 &" MB" into n > end if > end if > return n > end Bytes2Size > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Tue Jul 16 09:48:01 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:48:01 +0100 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <237D13B0-E938-42A2-85F4-2180D8F00F97@livecode.com> https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4072/l/1123259-how-do-i-download-a-test-release Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 15 Jul 2024, at 20:18, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > > Panos wrote: > >> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > ... >> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >> it via the automatic updater. > > Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. > > I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Tue Jul 16 11:02:06 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:02:06 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <98E2DD4A-3256-41AC-ACB7-72AD11DDE6CC@iotecdigital.com> Wonderful, thanks all. Bob S On Jul 15, 2024, at 6:01 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: With due credit to Richard for the original, you might want to update it for today's disk sizes, This adds GB and TB From dan at clearvisiontech.com Tue Jul 16 11:06:30 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:06:30 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: // We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. This is certainly great news! Is there a parallel version for LC 10 coming? I have a number of projects that I have been using 10.0.0 (dp-8). Is LC 10 being abandoned? If so (or even if not), it feels like 9.6.X seems to be the LC’s preferred version? Can I take a project built in 10 and move it to 9 without worry? What’s in 10 that’s not in 9?? Thanks in advance, Dan From heather at livecode.com Tue Jul 16 11:17:35 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 16:17:35 +0100 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA4EA51-DD70-4137-A784-DF83C407E090@livecode.com> The equivalent 10 test release is coming shortly. Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 16 Jul 2024, at 16:06, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote: > > // We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > > This is certainly great news! Is there a parallel version for LC 10 coming? I have a number of projects that I have been using 10.0.0 (dp-8). Is LC 10 being abandoned? If so (or even if not), it feels like 9.6.X seems to be the LC’s preferred version? Can I take a project built in 10 and move it to 9 without worry? What’s in 10 that’s not in 9?? > > Thanks in advance, > Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Tue Jul 16 12:04:26 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 17:04:26 +0100 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. Message-ID: I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) Help please. Thanks Alex. From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Jul 16 12:31:17 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:31:17 +0200 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> Alex, log into your Livecode account. Then on the left side select Products and then Thirdparty. There you should find a download link to the current version. Open it in LC and press Install and it will override/update your files. Regards, Matthias Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 16.07.2024 um 18:05 schrieb Alex Tweedly via use-livecode : > >  > I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. > > But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) > > Help please. > > Thanks > > Alex. > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Tue Jul 16 14:22:36 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:22:36 +0100 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. In-Reply-To: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> References: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Thank you. Was easy, and has indeed fixed my reported problem. Alex Sent from my iPhone > On 16 Jul 2024, at 17:32, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Alex, > > log into your Livecode account. Then on the left side select Products and then Thirdparty. There you should find a download link to the current version. > Open it in LC and press Install and it will override/update your files. > > Regards, > Matthias > > Von meinem iPad gesendet > >> Am 16.07.2024 um 18:05 schrieb Alex Tweedly via use-livecode : >> >>  >> I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. >> >> But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) >> >> Help please. >> >> Thanks >> >> Alex. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Tue Jul 16 15:20:49 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:20:49 +0000 Subject: [ANN] A new version of TinyDictionary Message-ID: A new version of TinyDictionary has been uploaded to Livecodeshare https://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/825/TinyDictionary or download it from within the IDE from "Sample Stacks" Kind regards Bernd From cszasz at mac.com Thu Jul 18 09:53:38 2024 From: cszasz at mac.com (Charles Szasz) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 07:53:38 -0600 Subject: Encrypted text files Message-ID: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. Sent from my iPad From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 18 11:09:04 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:09:04 +0000 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> Message-ID: <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your biggest text files be? Bob S > On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode wrote: > > Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 18 11:10:15 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:10:15 +0000 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> Also be sure to write and read binary. Bob S > On Jul 18, 2024, at 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your biggest text files be? > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 19 10:38:15 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:38:15 -0400 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: function Encrypt_This pEncryptWhat,pKey,pSalt,pCipher local tEncryptedResult if pCipher = "" then encrypt pEncryptWhat using "aes256" with password pKey and salt pSalt else encrypt pEncryptWhat using pCipher with password pKey and salt pSalt end if return it end Encrypt_This function Decrypt_This pDecryptWhat,pKey,pSalt,pCipher local tDecryptResult put it try if pCipher = "" then decrypt pDecryptWhat using "aes256" with password pKey and salt pSalt else decrypt pDecryptWhat using pCipher with password pKey and salt pSalt end if catch tError put tError end try put the result into tDecryptResult if the result contains "Error" then put the result into tDecryptResult["error"] else put "ok" into tDecryptResult["result"] put it into tDecryptResult["data"] end if return tDecryptResult end Decrypt_This On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:11 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Also be sure to write and read binary. > > Bob S > > > > On Jul 18, 2024, at 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar > wrote: > > > > I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the > dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your > biggest text files be? > > > > Bob S > > > > > >> On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an > app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 19 10:52:57 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:52:57 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: see the issue i posted on the repo On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 12:20 PM Mike Kerner wrote: > cool > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Heyall, >> >> I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. >> So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 >> >> Methodology is explained in github page. >> It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the >> generation. >> Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. >> >> Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. >> But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. >> If anyone wants to follow the project, >> Or help out in testing and correcting. >> >> websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the >> handlers. >> The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons >> of >> time already. >> It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. >> I think its a good starting point. >> >> Testing will start soon enough. >> I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, >> there is some kind of hope. >> My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example >> streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. >> >> https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode >> >> Enjoy. >> >> Tom >> . >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 19 19:35:41 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 19:35:41 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 10-4 On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 10:54 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > see the issue i posted on the repo > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 12:20 PM Mike Kerner > wrote: > > > cool > > > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> Heyall, > >> > >> I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real > project. > >> So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 > >> > >> Methodology is explained in github page. > >> It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from > the > >> generation. > >> Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. > >> > >> Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. > >> But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. > >> If anyone wants to follow the project, > >> Or help out in testing and correcting. > >> > >> websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the > >> handlers. > >> The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons > >> of > >> time already. > >> It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. > >> I think its a good starting point. > >> > >> Testing will start soon enough. > >> I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, > >> there is some kind of hope. > >> My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example > >> streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. > >> > >> https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode > >> > >> Enjoy. > >> > >> Tom > >> . > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 09:10:56 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:10:56 -0400 Subject: crop image Message-ID: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have the following script : create image put number of imgs into ni add 1 to Nflds put id of img ni into tid put imageData of img From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 09:23:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:23:11 -0400 Subject: crop image Message-ID: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have the following script : create image put number of imgs into ni put id of img ni into tid set filename of img id tid to myFile put imageData of img id tid into pimage -- many lines for imagedata analysis crop image id tid to rect trect I get this error : crop: object is not an image However, when replacing the "crop..." line with select img id tid it works, the image is visible and selected, which means the image has been created. It is as if "crop" doesn't work for images created in the same script. I have tried with an image created before running the script, and it works. I also tried a workaround with "export snapshot" = it works, also the snapshot features the portion of the card behind the image, as if the image doesn't exist... Any idea ? I am using LC 9.6.9 on Mac 10.15. Thank you in advance. jbv From craig at starfirelighting.com Tue Jul 23 09:33:08 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:33:08 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> Hi. You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; put number of imgs into ni add 1 to Nflds put id of img ni into tid put imageData of img ni but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? Craig > On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi list, > > I have the following script : > > create image > put number of imgs into ni > add 1 to Nflds > put id of img ni into tid > put imageData of img > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Tue Jul 23 10:46:25 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:46:25 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i'd like to learn more about how you did this. i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable LC code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). From bogdanoff at me.com Tue Jul 23 11:59:53 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 11:59:53 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> Message-ID: <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> You use the “last” keyword, ie the highest numbered one: the last image Peter Bogdanoff > On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:33 AM, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi. > > You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; > > put number of imgs into ni > > add 1 to Nflds > > put id of img ni into tid > > put imageData of img ni > > > > but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? > > > > Craig > > >> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi list, >> >> I have the following script : >> >> create image >> put number of imgs into ni >> add 1 to Nflds >> put id of img ni into tid >> put imageData of img >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From craig at starfirelighting.com Tue Jul 23 12:08:48 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:08:48 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> Message-ID: Peter is correct in that you could: "put the imageData of last image into wherever” as opposed to finding the number of that image directly and using that info to do stuff. Be aware that the “last” keyword, though invaluable, is not stable when referring to groups. Craig > On Jul 23, 2024, at 11:59 AM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > You use the “last” keyword, ie the highest numbered one: > the last image > > > Peter Bogdanoff > > >> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:33 AM, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi. >> >> You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; >> >> put number of imgs into ni >> >> add 1 to Nflds >> >> put id of img ni into tid >> >> put imageData of img ni >> >> >> >> but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >>> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi list, >>> >>> I have the following script : >>> >>> create image >>> put number of imgs into ni >>> add 1 to Nflds >>> put id of img ni into tid >>> put imageData of img >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 12:29:28 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:29:28 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> Message-ID: <4476d4a5425c520ca0a9744c37f8a043@souslelogo.com> Please check mu second post on the same topic. For the first one, I pressed "send" by mistake before finishing to write it. Thanks. From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 23 18:32:01 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 18:32:01 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Hello All, I'll start. After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. I feel very positive about this change. Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... Then I want to be in full support of this model. I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was explained. Great job on that. I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to align their business model or to get off the platform. I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the future of my company MakeShyft. I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this at all. All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. Tom From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 23 19:29:46 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 19:29:46 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mike, I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from nothing the performance will be significantly worse. Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the source code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for the standard. And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess when I got to testing it On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable LC > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From htorrado at networkdreams.net Tue Jul 23 20:00:24 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 20:00:24 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Hi Tom, It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company usesuch as for a workforce of 100 employeeswould still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. Hery On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > Hello All, > > I'll start. > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > I feel very positive about this change. > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > explained. Great job on that. > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > align their business model or to get off the platform. > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > future of my company MakeShyft. > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this > at all. > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 03:59:07 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:59:07 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tom, Thanks for the feedback. We really appreciate it. I'm glad you think the communication was done well, these things are never easy to communicate and we worked really hard at that. We're very optimistic that these changes will give us the capacity to move a lot faster which is going to be great for us all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 23/07/2024, 23:32, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hello All, I'll start. After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. I feel very positive about this change. Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... Then I want to be in full support of this model. I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was explained. Great job on that. I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to align their business model or to get off the platform. I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the future of my company MakeShyft. I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this at all. All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. Tom _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 04:01:13 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:01:13 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Heriberto, Thanks for taking the time to post. If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more closely. Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here many times over. There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days which will help to better illustrate this comparison. With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, or at any point before 2027. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Tom, It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. Hery On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > Hello All, > > I'll start. > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > I feel very positive about this change. > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > explained. Great job on that. > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > align their business model or to get off the platform. > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > future of my company MakeShyft. > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this > at all. > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 04:17:04 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Col Kelly) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:17:04 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. Col. Sent from my iPhone. > On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. > > Hery > >> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> I'll start. >> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >> I feel very positive about this change. >> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >> >> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >> explained. Great job on that. >> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >> align their business model or to get off the platform. >> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >> >> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >> future of my company MakeShyft. >> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >> at all. >> >> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >> >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 04:46:36 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:46:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get while trying to read the most recent post on the site? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > many times over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, > or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > web site. > > > Hery > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I'll start. > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > I feel very positive about this change. > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > dev, > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > reasonable. > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > > explained. Great job on that. > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > this > > at all. > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > Tom > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 04:58:53 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:58:53 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> You should have received an email from us, I'll send the link offline. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 09:46, "use-livecode on behalf of David Bovill via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get while trying to read the most recent post on the site? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > many times over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, > or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > web site. > > > Hery > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I'll start. > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > I feel very positive about this change. > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > dev, > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > reasonable. > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > > explained. Great job on that. > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > this > > at all. > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > Tom > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 05:00:45 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:00:45 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> Message-ID: Many thanks - a short blog post linking to “the future” might help with those of us not following home page? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:59, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > You should have received an email from us, I'll send the link offline. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 09:46, "use-livecode on behalf of David Bovill via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view > it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get > while trying to read the most recent post on the site? > > > On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > Hi Heriberto, > > > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by > your > > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > > closely. > > > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming > you > > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. > Any > > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. > So > > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what > they > > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? > I > > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they > are > > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > > many times over. > > > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps > out > > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, > getting > > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user > base. > > > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that > now, > > or at any point before 2027. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > > web site. > > > > > > Hery > > > > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > > > > I'll start. > > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > > I feel very positive about this change. > > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > > dev, > > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > > reasonable. > > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction > was > > > explained. Great job on that. > > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for > the > > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > > this > > > at all. > > > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > > > Tom > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 05:03:11 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:03:11 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. Col. Sent from my iPhone. > On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. > > Hery > >> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> I'll start. >> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >> I feel very positive about this change. >> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >> >> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >> explained. Great job on that. >> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >> align their business model or to get off the platform. >> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >> >> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >> future of my company MakeShyft. >> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >> at all. >> >> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >> >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Wed Jul 24 06:14:44 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Tweedly) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:14:44 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> References: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> Can you say anything about the future of LiveCode Server ? Thanks, Alex Sent from my iPad > On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:03, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. > > I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. > I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. > > > Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. > > > Col. > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. >> >> Hery >> >>>> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I'll start. >>> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >>> I feel very positive about this change. >>> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >>> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >>> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >>> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >>> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >>> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >>> >>> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >>> explained. Great job on that. >>> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >>> align their business model or to get off the platform. >>> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >>> >>> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >>> future of my company MakeShyft. >>> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >>> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >>> at all. >>> >>> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >>> >>> Tom >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From smk at anvic.net Wed Jul 24 06:22:51 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:22:51 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: One feature of the present commercial licensing is that I decide the terms and conditions that apply to any application I build. What happens under the new licensing if I build an application either for sale or for a client and then some time in the future the application is duplicated, distributed and used without my permission or even knowledge? Does RunRev chase me, the purchaser or both of us for breach of their license conditions? best wishes Simon From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 06:30:31 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:30:31 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: Well in practical terms if you don't know about it it's even harder for us to know. These sorts of things do happen but only occasionally so I don't spend too much time worrying about it. Obviously a sensible conversation would need to be had if it was discovered, most of which we would expect to be between you and your customer. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 11:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Simon Knight via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: One feature of the present commercial licensing is that I decide the terms and conditions that apply to any application I build. What happens under the new licensing if I build an application either for sale or for a client and then some time in the future the application is duplicated, distributed and used without my permission or even knowledge? Does RunRev chase me, the purchaser or both of us for breach of their license conditions? best wishes Simon _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From selander at tkf.att.ne.jp Wed Jul 24 06:51:13 2024 From: selander at tkf.att.ne.jp (Tim Selander) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:51:13 +0900 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> References: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander On 2024/07/24 19:14, Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > Can you say anything about the future of LiveCode Server ? > > Thanks, > Alex > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:03, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. >> >> I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> >> Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. >> I guess Im going to be forced down the PowerApps route. >> >> >> Slightly annoyed that ive subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. >> >> >> Col. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> >>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>> It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company usesuch as for a workforce of 100 employeeswould still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. >>> >>> Hery >>> >>>>> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I'll start. >>>> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >>>> I feel very positive about this change. >>>> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >>>> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >>>> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >>>> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >>>> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >>>> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >>>> >>>> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >>>> explained. Great job on that. >>>> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >>>> align their business model or to get off the platform. >>>> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >>>> >>>> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >>>> future of my company MakeShyft. >>>> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >>>> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >>>> at all. >>>> >>>> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Jul 24 06:55:05 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:55:05 +0200 Subject: @Kevin - some questions about GDRP and what exactly happens with the Lifetime Commercial (all current and future platforms) licenses Message-ID: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Dear Kevin, I am asking this here, as I am sure there a many who are also having the same or similar questions. As i correctly understand, then the product "Livecode Internal Apps" tracks the number of users. What information is collected and where is it stored? Are those servers located in the US or EU? Does it comply with GDRP? Does the new cloud solution in general comply with GDRP? What exactly happens to Livecode Server? What exactly happens with the Commercial Lifetime licenses from Kickstarter, which included current and all future platforms? Will they, even not maintained, at least still work after 2027? Or will they be disabled? Although I had such a license I also had a subscription for a Business license, although I really did not need that Business features. It was more a support to LC, because Lifetime licenses does not bring any money. I even funded most of your "projects", starting with On-Rev Server and revMobile. I evend "funded" the ScriptCompiler, although I was sure, that I do not really need it. My personal situation is the following. I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. I would not have a problem with paying for a developer license + the 5% fee for my sales, although I do not earn much money with it. I even would also not have a problem with it to purchase also a Internal Apps Developer license. But over the years I've created many Internal Apps and LC server scripts. A large number of them is still maintained. Some of them run scheduled and unattended on a server. Some of them are used by about 10 or 12 users. Those are not big apps, just simple helper tools. One tool for example is run every time the user sends an email from the ERP. It uses pdftk server and Ghostscrip in the background to manipulate PDF files before they are sent out by email to customers. According to the new pricing we would have to pay at least 4356 /year (1 dev + 10 users to use this tool. That is definitely a knockout criterion. I would understand to pay this when using the new features of the new product, but not for maintaining/bugfixing and even for creating simple apps without the need of AI, Cloud and whatever extraordinary feature/functions the new product comes with... Regards, Matthias From smilingeyes at mac.com Wed Jul 24 07:54:59 2024 From: smilingeyes at mac.com (Raymond Bennett) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 07:54:59 -0400 Subject: [Virus Error] Livecode Future - LC Server and Web licensing Message-ID: Kevin and Co. - Thanks as always for all you've done and continue to do. Livecode Server didn't get mentioned (that I saw) in this announcement. My assumption is LC Server will continue. If that's true, then that brings me to the question of licensing for web deployments. If the application does it's work via the web - e.g. an app like the Meetingspace app from the 2022 conference - what is the license model for that? Thank you. Ray Bennett From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 08:12:41 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:12:41 +0100 Subject: @Kevin - some questions about GDRP and what exactly happens with the Lifetime Commercial (all current and future platforms) licenses In-Reply-To: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <775735C2-6E79-46B7-95B0-BC676832F577@livecode.com> Hi Matthias, Thanks for your questions. Tracking users - yes we will track and collect this information. You will be able to see it in a user portal too. While we don’t yet offer it, you will soon have a choice of data centre. We are GDPR compliant. We will also offer a contract for a specific number of users without tracking for those of you that have more sensitive apps. The cloud solution in general will comply with GDPR yes. I have outlined in a specific video our policy on lifetime licenses, its on the page near the bottom for those of you that had those licenses (you will have received a different email to the others with a different link). I’m glad to hear that the developer license + application payments works for your commercial app. Your specific use of LiveCode Server on its own is an interesting question. I did speak to several dozen customers personally prior to making this change (including you!) and it was not a question that really came up in any major way. Obviously in the case of application payments it's just part of that model. However the use you have here seems like a bit of an edge case. Clearly there is value in our server platform but perhaps not as much as when you’re using our full tech stack with GUI delivery (or the new Cloud features) etc. I’m going to take this offline and ask you a number of questions about this so we can figure out something sensible. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 11:55, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Dear Kevin, I am asking this here, as I am sure there a many who are also having the same or similar questions. As i correctly understand, then the product "Livecode Internal Apps" tracks the number of users. What information is collected and where is it stored? Are those servers located in the US or EU? Does it comply with GDRP? Does the new cloud solution in general comply with GDRP? What exactly happens to Livecode Server? What exactly happens with the Commercial Lifetime licenses from Kickstarter, which included current and all future platforms? Will they, even not maintained, at least still work after 2027? Or will they be disabled? Although I had such a license I also had a subscription for a Business license, although I really did not need that Business features. It was more a support to LC, because Lifetime licenses does not bring any money. I even funded most of your "projects", starting with On-Rev Server and revMobile. I evend "funded" the ScriptCompiler, although I was sure, that I do not really need it. My personal situation is the following. I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. I would not have a problem with paying for a developer license + the 5% fee for my sales, although I do not earn much money with it. I even would also not have a problem with it to purchase also a Internal Apps Developer license. But over the years I've created many Internal Apps and LC server scripts. A large number of them is still maintained. Some of them run scheduled and unattended on a server. Some of them are used by about 10 or 12 users. Those are not big apps, just simple helper tools. One tool for example is run every time the user sends an email from the ERP. It uses pdftk server and Ghostscrip in the background to manipulate PDF files before they are sent out by email to customers. According to the new pricing we would have to pay at least 4356 /year (1 dev + 10 users to use this tool. That is definitely a knockout criterion. I would understand to pay this when using the new features of the new product, but not for maintaining/bugfixing and even for creating simple apps without the need of AI, Cloud and whatever extraordinary feature/functions the new product comes with... Regards, Matthias _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 24 08:28:08 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:28:08 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: so, for you, the trick was: * claude (opus) * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did that) * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc anything else? On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hey Mike, > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from nothing > the performance will be significantly worse. > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the source > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for the > standard. > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess when I > got to testing it > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable > LC > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 24 08:29:33 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:29:33 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kevin You mentioned a difference between having classic, web based and universal. How does that reflect in the pricing as there only seems to be the option for two models, internal and external apps. Does a ‘seat’ cover use for all the platforms? This will also have a great impact on ‘value’, I’m sure. Sean Cole Still developing for one LC subscriber but in LC5.0.2 having been forced out of actual business by the non-delivery of LC10 into stable and most features invested into not arriving as promised along. Baffled by the fact LCLtd are giving people only 1mth to ‘decide’ (like that makes it an actual ‘decision’; it’s more like being held at gunpoint as LCLtd are killing “classic”) and fund into yet another DP (!!) that may not ever see the ‘Stable’, much like LC10 which hasn’t seen an update since Apr’23. It’s a bit ‘cheeky’, you cheeky chappies 😜😛😜 you. 😅 Good job glossing over this 😚😉 From General.2018 at outlook.com Wed Jul 24 08:49:29 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:49:29 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID:  Hi Kevin, I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. Is that the understanding ? Regards Camm On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 08:58:02 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:58:02 +0100 Subject: [Virus Error] Livecode Future - LC Server and Web licensing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Server will continue yes. The majority of web deployments will be things that aren't classified as commercial in our model. However if you're building a web platform for paying customers to use or some sort of information system for your employees, then one of the two license types - internal users or apps for sale would apply. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 12:54, "use-livecode on behalf of Raymond Bennett via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin and Co. - Thanks as always for all you've done and continue to do. Livecode Server didn't get mentioned (that I saw) in this announcement. My assumption is LC Server will continue. If that's true, then that brings me to the question of licensing for web deployments. If the application does it's work via the web - e.g. an app like the Meetingspace app from the 2022 conference - what is the license model for that? Thank you. Ray Bennett _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:04:42 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:04:42 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> If the app is genuinely a free companion app then there are no fees payable under our model. It sounds like that is the case here so no change. What we won't accept is someone pretending the app is free and restructuring their business model to make it appear that way when its actually a paid app. I'm not suggesting that is the case here. However if the VAT man was to determine that this app should be paying digital services tax in future then we'd also consider it to have a value at that point. In terms of removing the label, it will be a very small tasteful badge. Lets have another conversation about it at the time to see if this is really an issue. I except we can come up with a solution if so. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 13:49, "use-livecode on behalf of General 2018 via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin, I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. Is that the understanding ? Regards Camm On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode > wrote: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:05:58 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:05:58 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <684A916B-5005-4031-8642-E6F7E2FD9A46@livecode.com> The bigger difference here is in internal users who buy either Native/Cloud or Universal. In the apps for sale only the developers need those seats, there is no difference to the application payments model regardless of what platforms you deploy. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 13:29, "use-livecode on behalf of Pi Digital via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin You mentioned a difference between having classic, web based and universal. How does that reflect in the pricing as there only seems to be the option for two models, internal and external apps. Does a ‘seat’ cover use for all the platforms? This will also have a great impact on ‘value’, I’m sure. Sean Cole Still developing for one LC subscriber but in LC5.0.2 having been forced out of actual business by the non-delivery of LC10 into stable and most features invested into not arriving as promised along. Baffled by the fact LCLtd are giving people only 1mth to ‘decide’ (like that makes it an actual ‘decision’; it’s more like being held at gunpoint as LCLtd are killing “classic”) and fund into yet another DP (!!) that may not ever see the ‘Stable’, much like LC10 which hasn’t seen an update since Apr’23. It’s a bit ‘cheeky’, you cheeky chappies 😜😛😜 you. 😅 Good job glossing over this 😚😉 _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:13:27 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:13:27 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <48466A01-DC46-4AF9-9C31-C57FF93ECE76@mac.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> Message-ID: <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:22:28 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:22:28 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: Right - so your company has already recognized the value of being able to deploy custom apps to their employees and willingly pays a monthly per-user fee to do so. That vendor happens to be to Microsoft rather than LiveCode. Our new platform provides more value than Power Apps and has had a great deal of investment in it. Unfortunately I can’t really help that your company has bought a solution from someone else. Trying to price our platform in a non-commercial way because you have something else installed would make it unviable for us. I suspect making the same suggestion that Microsoft should offer their platform for less would not be entertained by Microsoft either! Drop me a line off list and lets have a chat about what we can do. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Colin Kelly Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 13:21 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future As our employees all have a valid MS 0365 Business standard license and Powerapps are deployed via a tab in Microsoft Teams then there is no other cost for deploying PowerApps, the cost of deploying PowerApps over LC is significantly less! From General.2018 at outlook.com Wed Jul 24 09:59:34 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:59:34 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> References: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> Message-ID: Hi Kevin , Thanks for the reply. Well that sounds promising. Totally agree if digital service VAT is deemed due then the app can no longer be classed as free. Kind Regards > On 24 Jul 2024, at 14:05, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If the app is genuinely a free companion app then there are no fees payable under our model. It sounds like that is the case here so no change. What we won't accept is someone pretending the app is free and restructuring their business model to make it appear that way when its actually a paid app. I'm not suggesting that is the case here. However if the VAT man was to determine that this app should be paying digital services tax in future then we'd also consider it to have a value at that point. > > In terms of removing the label, it will be a very small tasteful badge. Lets have another conversation about it at the time to see if this is really an issue. I except we can come up with a solution if so. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 13:49, "use-livecode on behalf of General 2018 via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, > > > I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” > > > The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. > This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. > > > So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. > > > Is that the understanding ? > > > > > Regards > Camm > > > On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode > wrote: > > > Yes, this is quite important to me as well. > > > Thanks, > Tim Selander > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From gagsoft at iafrica.com Wed Jul 24 10:27:57 2024 From: gagsoft at iafrica.com (Peter Gagiano) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:27:57 +0200 (SAST) Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> Message-ID: <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Hi Kevin Hi Heather. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developed and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" To: "How to use LiveCode" Cc: "Kevin Miller" Sent: Wednesday, 24 July, 2024 15:13:27 Subject: Re: Livecode Future Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 10:45:40 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:45:40 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Message-ID: <266A9126-26B9-4397-9D91-3C289A6FAE7B@livecode.com> Hi Peter, Thanks for this. I'm going to send this on to support if that’s ok, so Heather can help you with your specific subscription options. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 15:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Peter Gagiano via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin Hi Heather. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developed and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > To: "How to use LiveCode" > Cc: "Kevin Miller" > Sent: Wednesday, 24 July, 2024 15:13:27 Subject: Re: Livecode Future Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller > wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 10:55:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:55:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of antitrust case to catch up. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Colin Kelly Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Hi Kevin, I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that we would already be using so not an additional cost MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. -- From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 11:44:50 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:44:50 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of the correct syntax. Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you can also include files as part of knowledge base.) I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a little better in this regard. See if you have better luck generating livecode with this https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt Thanks, Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > so, for you, the trick was: > * claude (opus) > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > that) > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > anything else? > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Hey Mike, > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > nothing > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > source > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for > the > > standard. > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > when I > > got to testing it > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > reasonable > > LC > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From prothero at ucsb.edu Wed Jul 24 11:52:58 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:52:58 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Folks, I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? Thanks, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 11:54:54 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:54:54 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. Bob S From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Jul 24 11:56:22 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:56:22 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Find Out More > On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > Folks, > I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? > > Thanks, > Bill > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 12:08:47 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:08:47 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large products at a quick pace as well. So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade plus, with many different products. I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the community to build.) So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as Kevin said in the video. To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and faster updates. That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really sucks. I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. Thanks for listening Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:09:35 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:09:35 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:14:53 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:14:53 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) The minisite link you want is here: https://future.livecode.com/ Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > Find Out More > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Folks, >> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >> >> Thanks, >> Bill >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:30:31 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:30:31 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Too late. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote: > > Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) > > The minisite link you want is here: > > https://future.livecode.com/ > > Best Regards, > > Heather > > Heather Laine > Customer Services Manager > LiveCode Ltd > www.livecode.com > > > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Find Out More >> >> >>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bill >>> >>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:37:46 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:37:46 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> No, those apps will continue to work. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > > I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Jul 24 12:39:02 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:39:02 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: I don’t think that there is any “phone home” to LiveCode in compiled classic apps. Peter Bogdanoff > On Jul 24, 2024, at 12:09 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. > > I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:46:14 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:46:14 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> Message-ID: <8B737E1F-7D2A-4FFF-A5EE-A5DB33082410@iotecdigital.com> Thanks Kevin that is much more encouraging. At least I won’t have to abandon the work I have already done. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:37 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > No, those apps will continue to work. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. > > > I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From prothero at ucsb.edu Wed Jul 24 12:46:16 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:46:16 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the link. I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Too late. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) >> >> The minisite link you want is here: >> >> https://future.livecode.com/ >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Heather >> >> Heather Laine >> Customer Services Manager >> LiveCode Ltd >> www.livecode.com >> >> >> >>>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Find Out More >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:52:15 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:52:15 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are Application Payments?". Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large products at a quick pace as well. So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade plus, with many different products. I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the community to build.) So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as Kevin said in the video. To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and faster updates. That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really sucks. I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. Thanks for listening Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > To: How to use LiveCode > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:53:53 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:53:53 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Thanks for the link. I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > > Too late. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) >> >> The minisite link you want is here: >> >> https://future.livecode.com/ >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Heather >> >> Heather Laine >> Customer Services Manager >> LiveCode Ltd >> www.livecode.com >> >> >> >>>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Find Out More >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 24 13:03:13 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:03:13 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what did you send to chatgpt to generate the LC expert model? On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:46 AM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. > so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. > The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to > figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of the > correct syntax. > Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude > "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you can > also include files as part of knowledge base.) > > I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a > little better in this regard. > > See if you have better luck generating livecode with this > > https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > so, for you, the trick was: > > * claude (opus) > > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > > that) > > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > > anything else? > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > > nothing > > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > > source > > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for > > the > > > standard. > > > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks > for > > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > > when I > > > got to testing it > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > > reasonable > > > LC > > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From mailkeliko01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 13:09:27 2024 From: mailkeliko01 at gmail.com (Riko Abadi) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:09:27 +0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. > > Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what > you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue > increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are > Application Payments?". > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. > > > I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. > While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet > I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself > so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large > products at a quick pace as well. > > > So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. > Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade > plus, with many different products. > I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the > community to build.) > > > So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as > Kevin said in the video. > > > To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? > And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and > faster updates. > That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. > > > I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really > sucks. > I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. > > > Thanks for listening > > > Tom > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > > To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing > that > > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From craig at starfirelighting.com Wed Jul 24 13:23:49 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:23:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. Craig > On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode wrote: > > I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my > web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the > Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web > hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >> >> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >> Application Payments?". >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >> use-livecode" > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >> >> >> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >> products at a quick pace as well. >> >> >> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >> plus, with many different products. >> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >> community to build.) >> >> >> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >> Kevin said in the video. >> >> >> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >> faster updates. >> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >> >> >> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >> sucks. >> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >> >> >> Thanks for listening >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>> >>> >>> >>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>> antitrust case to catch up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ >> http://www.livecode.com/ >>> >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Colin Kelly > >>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>> To: How to use LiveCode > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> >>> Cc: Kevin Miller > >>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> >>> >>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >> that >>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>> >>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 13:28:05 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:28:05 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <3579ECBB-964C-4C6A-B0F3-AF9DC5A696A2@livecode.com> No, only the revenue attributable to the app. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Riko Abadi via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. > > Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what > you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue > increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are > Application Payments?". > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. > > > I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. > While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet > I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself > so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large > products at a quick pace as well. > > > So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. > Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade > plus, with many different products. > I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the > community to build.) > > > So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as > Kevin said in the video. > > > To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? > And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and > faster updates. > That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. > > > I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really > sucks. > I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. > > > Thanks for listening > > > Tom > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly >> > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > > To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > > Cc: Kevin Miller >> > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing > that > > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 13:28:27 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:28:27 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <422AD9A9-2F4D-48C6-A731-DA0E37D8BE1A@livecode.com> I'll see if we can expand the FAQ a bit further tomorrow. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:23, "use-livecode on behalf of Craig Newman via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. Craig > On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode > wrote: > > I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my > web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the > Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web > hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >> >> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >> Application Payments?". >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >> use-livecode" > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> wrote: >> >> >> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >> >> >> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >> products at a quick pace as well. >> >> >> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >> plus, with many different products. >> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >> community to build.) >> >> >> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >> Kevin said in the video. >> >> >> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >> faster updates. >> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >> >> >> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >> sucks. >> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >> >> >> Thanks for listening >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>> >>> >>> >>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>> antitrust case to catch up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ >> http://www.livecode.com/ >>> >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Colin Kelly >> >>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>> To: How to use LiveCode > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >>> Cc: Kevin Miller >> >>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> >>> >>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >> that >>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>> >>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 24 13:47:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:47:11 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I am a bit lost as I am trying to figure out how I fit in the new license plans. I have built a couple of desktop apps years ago for 2 different clients who use them in their business, with less than 20 users in total. These apps make intensive use of LC server and I also have 2 LC-hosting accounts. I keep maintaining these apps with cosmetic changes once or twice a year. Most of the time these modifications represent less than 1% or 2% of the code, but each time I need to recompile for MacOS & Windows. I use a license for MacOS and Windows which gets renewed every year. Therefore my question : how will I be able to continue in the same way ? Thanks, jbv From dan at clearvisiontech.com Wed Jul 24 14:27:31 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:27:31 +0000 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a firewall other security method)? -Dan From heather at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:30:58 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:30:58 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <19993D5F-A5F8-4E76-A283-6C2BE84EFE46@livecode.com> https://future.livecode.com/faq/ Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 24 Jul 2024, at 18:23, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > > I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" > > This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. > > Craig > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my >> web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the >> Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web >> hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >>> >>> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >>> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >>> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >>> Application Payments?". >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >>> use-livecode" >> use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >>> >>> >>> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >>> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >>> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >>> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >>> products at a quick pace as well. >>> >>> >>> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >>> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >>> plus, with many different products. >>> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >>> community to build.) >>> >>> >>> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >>> Kevin said in the video. >>> >>> >>> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >>> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >>> faster updates. >>> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >>> >>> >>> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >>> sucks. >>> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >>> >>> >>> Thanks for listening >>> >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>>> antitrust case to catch up. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ >>> http://www.livecode.com/ >>>> >>>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Colin Kelly > >>>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>>> To: How to use LiveCode >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> >>>> Cc: Kevin Miller > >>>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Kevin, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >>> that >>>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>>> >>>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 14:45:36 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:45:36 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: This is a good question, or if the license server goes down..... I think in case of failure it has to allow the software to proceed. Otherwise EVERYTHING hinges on some droplet on digital ocean. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:28 PM Dan Friedman via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, > what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by > a firewall other security method)? > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:53:47 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:53:47 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Please drop a line to support so we can talk through your specific/individual question in more detail. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:47, "use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi list, I am a bit lost as I am trying to figure out how I fit in the new license plans. I have built a couple of desktop apps years ago for 2 different clients who use them in their business, with less than 20 users in total. These apps make intensive use of LC server and I also have 2 LC-hosting accounts. I keep maintaining these apps with cosmetic changes once or twice a year. Most of the time these modifications represent less than 1% or 2% of the code, but each time I need to recompile for MacOS & Windows. I use a license for MacOS and Windows which gets renewed every year. Therefore my question : how will I be able to continue in the same way ? Thanks, jbv _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ludovic.thebault at laposte.net Wed Jul 24 14:53:25 2024 From: ludovic.thebault at laposte.net (Ludovic THEBAULT) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 20:53:25 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> > Le 24 juil. 2024 à 18:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode a écrit : > > Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin Hello, A few questions : If I take out a licence for the new software, what happens to the current subscription? Is it automatically cancelled? According to the FAQ, you can continue to work ‘the old way’ until the new interface is finalised. Is Livecode 10 actually included in the new package? Or is it a new software that will offer a few new features like automatic backup and AI? Will current plug-ins such as Datagrid helper be able to be used with the new software (at least in ‘classic’ mode)? Thanks. Ludovic From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:55:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:55:23 +0100 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are able to get online. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a firewall other security method)? -Dan _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 15:58:53 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:58:53 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is constructive, and not hold back. Thank you in advance. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > able to get online. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > firewall other security method)? > > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jeff at siphonophore.com Wed Jul 24 16:04:44 2024 From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:04:44 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. Jeff From htorrado at networkdreams.net Wed Jul 24 19:18:57 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:18:57 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3d4966d5-f453-4a80-ae02-c7deb9ea82b4@networkdreams.net> Hi Kevin, Thank you very much for your response. It is an honor to receive a reply from the founder of Livecode. I had indeed misunderstood the non-commercial internal use licenses, so I appreciate the clarification. Perhaps it might be helpful to address this on the future Livecode website, as it may not be very clear to others as well. The cost of the commercial license seems reasonable and in line with what other manufacturers charge. As you mentioned, time is gold, and being productive in developing an app or website significantly impacts a company's costs. Over fifteen years ago, I decided to invest my time and knowledge in Livecode because I consider it the best cross-platform tool available. However, I was initially concerned when I thought each employee had to pay $150 for using a small application in-house. I am currently developing small applications and websites within the company, such as an application for our IT department to easily encrypt and decrypt folders. I congratulate you and all Livecode team for continuing to lead Livecode for more than 25 years. You have taken the baton from Hypercard and elevated it to an incredible level. Now that I know you read my messages, I would like take advantage :-) and to suggest considering a new GPL version of Livecode Server Script. Years ago, I replaced all my Python scripts with Livecode. I believe a GPL version of Livecode Server would significantly boost the platform. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/24/24 04:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to > sell, its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed > by your company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little > more closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming > you don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter > takes only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly > mounts up. Any app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create > is going to pay for itself in the saving of your time when compared to > the new licensing costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few > apps are created perfect, most require regular changes as they > encounter the real world. So you have the ongoing increase in > development costs for every update PLUS the lost productivity costs of > each of those users having to wait longer for each update, or ending up > with an app that simply doesn't do what they need. This happens all the > time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I have no idea what those > users do so this could be way out, but if they are earning say $50K a > year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much time with a > better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here many times > over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps > out faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, > getting your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire > user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming > days which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that > now, or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin From htorrado at networkdreams.net Wed Jul 24 19:51:15 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:51:15 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> Hi Jeff, I believe many people don't consider you to be an odd duck at all. You come from a time when software developers were akin to craftsmen. It was a more romantic era, where you would get a program like HyperCard or Visual Basic, retreat to your office with a few books, and create software. It was a time when relationships with clients were direct and face-to-face, often resulting in lasting friendships. I fondly remember my youth and adolescence in the 80s in Spainthe arrival of the first Commodores and ZX Spectrums, rushing to the newsstand to buy my favorite computer magazine, and typing the codes from its pages into the computer. In the early 90s, I detected a bug when installing Microsoft Office alongside Corel Draw on Windows 95. I called Microsoft, and two weeks later, I received a diskette with a patch that resolved the issue. Now, at 52, I've been in the IT and software business for so long that I can hardly remember a time before it. I've lived through the explosion of 8-bit computers, the advent of the IBM XT and early Apple models, the rise of object-oriented programming, LAN networks with UNIX and Novell, the Internet, and the web. Yet, I struggle to adapt to the current software development paradigm: software that constantly calls home to the manufacturer, licensing fees for every program you develop, incessant updates that break everything, and absurd development speeds. I long to return to the joyful 80s and remain there perpetually. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/24/24 16:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode wrote: > Ive used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize Im the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. Im not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as its usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or dont work in the gear. Ive had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and its a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my clients environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks Im on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. Im sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons Im sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt Ill do much if any programming in retirement now, Ive had enough after over the last 5 decades, its now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand thats where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, its not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and dont need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From james at thehales.id.au Wed Jul 24 20:52:13 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James At The Hales) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:52:13 +1000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. Can someone provide a link to this video? I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. James From alex at tweedly.net Wed Jul 24 22:44:28 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 03:44:28 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Jul 2024, at 01:53, James At The Hales via use-livecode wrote: > > Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. > Can someone provide a link to this video? > I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) > > Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. > > Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. > > While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. > > James > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 00:08:21 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:08:21 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - LiveCode Addons Message-ID: Do we need to make application payments for LiveCode Addons? Hopefully no - Addons work on LC Classic too, so tracking doesn't seem plausible to me. If Addons even count as 'Apps'. Nor is paying both 'Internal' and 'for Sale' affordable for an LiveCode consultant who does LC work and makes Addons. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Jul 25 00:21:14 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:21:14 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I fed it the livecode reference manual ... i had a pdf of it, not sure where to find that now. Also the builder documentation from here https://livecode.com/apidocs/docs/guide.html#livecode-builder-language-reference I think I might have missed the top section of builder related guides. and the httpd library. I also instructed it on how quotes work in livecode and to use & quote instead of escaping a quotation mark. (because I noticed that it gets that wrong, and so when I notice certain things, I then instruct on how to not make that mistake) Cheers Mike, I hope that help On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:04 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > what did you send to chatgpt to generate the LC expert model? > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:46 AM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > > > > I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. > > so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. > > The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to > > figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of > the > > correct syntax. > > Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude > > "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you > can > > also include files as part of knowledge base.) > > > > I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a > > little better in this regard. > > > > See if you have better luck generating livecode with this > > > > https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt > > > > Thanks, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > so, for you, the trick was: > > > * claude (opus) > > > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > > > that) > > > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > > > anything else? > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work > better > > > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > > > nothing > > > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > > > source > > > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs > for > > > the > > > > standard. > > > > > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks > > for > > > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > > > when I > > > > got to testing it > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > > > reasonable > > > > LC > > > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > > and did a little diving. > > > And God said, "This is good." > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 00:24:49 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:24:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - access to LC Classic IDEs Message-ID: <362779b5-f551-4e4b-a420-bfce5af67f82@pair.com> If you move an existing LC subscription over to Create... Do you lose access to the bona fide LiveCode Classic IDEs for 6.7, 9, and 10? And the licensing terms thereof for new app builds created with them? Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From james at thehales.id.au Thu Jul 25 02:37:01 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James Hale) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:37:01 +1000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <7F51E3AD-1753-4763-B957-7DE8AB9896C4@thehales.id.au> A bit more here (I’m in Oz) $685 at today’s rate. Just under my fortnightly age pension. And for a product that is still to be released! Still has bits that don’t work and who knows what the documentation will be like, if it even exists yet. Paying for things still to come is getting old (especially with the track record of the company.) > On 25 Jul 2024, at 12:44 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > James ------------------------ Mob: 0408 206 883 From panos.merakos at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:12:24 2024 From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:12:24 +0300 Subject: [[ ANN ]] Release 10.0.0 RC-1 Message-ID: Dear list members, We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 10.0.0 RC-1. LiveCode 10.0.0 RC-1 comes with 11 bugfixes since the previous DP release, and also includes the bugfixes of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1, including support for building against API 34 on Android. You can find more details on the bugfixes and improvements of this new release here: https://livecode.com/livecode-10-rc-1-google-play-store-and-cef-updates-2/ You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get it via the automatic updater. Enjoy! Kind regards The LiveCode Team -- From smk at anvic.net Thu Jul 25 03:33:21 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:33:21 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Hi Jeff, When I was working my use cases would have run into similar issues as you describe. Most of my applications were short lived and were used by either defence contractors or the military themselves. If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. I suspect that if I used Livecode Create today I would end up having to prove that it was not contacting any remote servers so much so that I doubt that even being accepted as a "special case" by RunRev would cut it with the military security services. Even if the application were allowed then the licensing is complex, for example I was once paid to support the Ten Tors race by designing and writing a database front end to a PostGre database of competitors which was designed to track team members during the two day event. The event is run by the UK Army and the competitors are all teenagers i.e. children. The event is managed from an army camp on Dartmoor where there is no internet. The database front end was installed on something like fifteen computers situated in departments dotted around the camp such as transport and the medical centre. Each department had personal accessing the database as and when they needed to.These people were working shifts over the time of the event. Each department tended to use a single login so I have no idea how the number of users could be tracked. Also the security and privacy issues were massive and there is no way that software that contacted or attempted to contact the cloud would have be allowed. While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. I have read and reread the licensing terms along with the updated FAQs but I still have no idea how the example above would have been charged if written in LC Create today. For example my application used a database library, written in Livecode Script and licensed from Andrea Garcia. Does the use of third party libraries cause additional licensing issues? Like you I think now is time to find other hobbies; the Proxxon range of mini tools are interesting and don't have the same licensing issues. best wishes Simon > On 24 Jul 2024, at 21:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode wrote: > > I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:53:40 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:53:40 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> Message-ID: <2AAC7E44-556E-4687-9F5B-1736A3324CD2@livecode.com> Access to Classic and older builds continues to be included in the Create license. If you move then either we or you can cancel your existing subscription. Existing plugins will continue to run in Classic mode. Some of them may already run in Create, it depends on how tightly they are tied into the IDE. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things Hello, A few questions : If I take out a licence for the new software, what happens to the current subscription? Is it automatically cancelled? According to the FAQ, you can continue to work ‘the old way’ until the new interface is finalised. Is Livecode 10 actually included in the new package? Or is it a new software that will offer a few new features like automatic backup and AI? Will current plug-ins such as Datagrid helper be able to be used with the new software (at least in ‘classic’ mode)? Thanks. Ludovic _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:54:07 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:54:07 +0100 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> Happy to read such an email. You have my email address. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 20:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is constructive, and not hold back. Thank you in advance. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > able to get online. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > firewall other security method)? > > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:57:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:57:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A1BC64D-CE5E-42D0-B104-CD30C3FBF427@livecode.com> I don't think this is going to be too difficult. Might just be easier to license the machines this is on rather than the number of people. If that is even necessary, as volunteers do not count. As I've said in previous replies, phone home is not a requirement. If you drop us a line in support we can work out an exact quote for you. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 21:04, "use-livecode on behalf of Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. Jeff _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:27:35 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:27:35 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F068F83-0EE1-4DBF-87C2-CB5CD398BCBE@livecode.com> We're going to tweak this policy a bit after feedback. Stay tuned for an email. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 01:52, "use-livecode on behalf of James At The Hales via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. Can someone provide a link to this video? I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:28:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:28:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Yes, the price for a hobbyist using multiple platforms is lower now. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 03:44, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Jul 2024, at 01:53, James At The Hales via use-livecode > wrote: > > Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. > Can someone provide a link to this video? > I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) > > Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. > > Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. > > While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. > > James > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:28:34 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:28:34 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - LiveCode Addons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 05:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Do we need to make application payments for LiveCode Addons? Hopefully no - Addons work on LC Classic too, so tracking doesn't seem plausible to me. If Addons even count as 'Apps'. Nor is paying both 'Internal' and 'for Sale' affordable for an LiveCode consultant who does LC work and makes Addons. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:32:16 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:32:16 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> References: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Message-ID: <6D31482D-57F1-4EB8-8C68-67A2824D1970@livecode.com> As I've said several times now - we are not mandating tracking. You can count machines instead of users if you prefer - it's one or the other (not some mixture of both). Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 08:33, "use-livecode on behalf of Simon Knight via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Jeff, When I was working my use cases would have run into similar issues as you describe. Most of my applications were short lived and were used by either defence contractors or the military themselves. If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. I suspect that if I used Livecode Create today I would end up having to prove that it was not contacting any remote servers so much so that I doubt that even being accepted as a "special case" by RunRev would cut it with the military security services. Even if the application were allowed then the licensing is complex, for example I was once paid to support the Ten Tors race by designing and writing a database front end to a PostGre database of competitors which was designed to track team members during the two day event. The event is run by the UK Army and the competitors are all teenagers i.e. children. The event is managed from an army camp on Dartmoor where there is no internet. The database front end was installed on something like fifteen computers situated in departments dotted around the camp such as transport and the medical centre. Each department had personal accessing the database as and when they needed to.These people were working shifts over the time of the event. Each department tended to use a single login so I have no idea how the number of users could be tracked. Also the security and privacy issues were massive and there is no way that software that contacted or attempted to contact the cloud would have be allowed. While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. I have read and reread the licensing terms along with the updated FAQs but I still have no idea how the example above would have been charged if written in LC Create today. For example my application used a database library, written in Livecode Script and licensed from Andrea Garcia. Does the use of third party libraries cause additional licensing issues? Like you I think now is time to find other hobbies; the Proxxon range of mini tools are interesting and don't have the same licensing issues. best wishes Simon > On 24 Jul 2024, at 21:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mark at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:41:42 2024 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:41:42 +0100 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> References: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> On 2024-07-23 14:23, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > Hi list, > > I have the following script : > > create image > put number of imgs into ni > put id of img ni into tid > set filename of img id tid to myFile > put imageData of img id tid into pimage > -- many lines for imagedata analysis > crop image id tid to rect trect > > I get this error : > crop: object is not an image That is a slightly misleading error... 'crop' does not operate on images which are referenced - i.e. use a filename To crop such an image, load the data into the image: set the text of img id tid to url ("binfile:" & myFile) Hope this helps. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From mark at rauterkus.com Thu Jul 25 07:17:22 2024 From: mark at rauterkus.com (mark at rauterkus.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 07:17:22 -0400 Subject: LiveCode and AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> Hi, The words "AI" were used once in the new future page. Radical omission? Seems like a major shift when contrasted to those infant days of Create. Wondering. Mark Rauterkus From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 08:22:45 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:22:45 +0100 Subject: LiveCode and AI In-Reply-To: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> References: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> Message-ID: <955CA875-DC24-4267-A982-ED90485D4F57@livecode.com> Its still very much part of the picture. There is an AI assistant in the Script Editor already in DP 1. There will be additional AI capabilities for defining layouts and choosing actions as we progress. Its possible these may be after 1.0 depending on how progress continues on them. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 12:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Rauterkus via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi, The words "AI" were used once in the new future page. Radical omission? Seems like a major shift when contrasted to those infant days of Create. Wondering. Mark Rauterkus _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Thu Jul 25 08:47:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:47:11 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> References: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> Message-ID: <2ec457e9ca6463ddfe885e5a924b127e@souslelogo.com> Hi Mark, Yes, it helped a lot. Many thanks. jbv Le 2024-07-25 05:41, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode a crit : > On 2024-07-23 14:23, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi list, >> >> I have the following script : >> >> create image >> put number of imgs into ni >> put id of img ni into tid >> set filename of img id tid to myFile >> put imageData of img id tid into pimage >> -- many lines for imagedata analysis >> crop image id tid to rect trect >> >> I get this error : >> crop: object is not an image > > That is a slightly misleading error... > > 'crop' does not operate on images which are referenced - i.e. use a > filename > > To crop such an image, load the data into the image: > set the text of img id tid to url ("binfile:" & myFile) > > Hope this helps. > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. From livfoss at mac.com Thu Jul 25 10:30:15 2024 From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:30:15 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. Best Graham > On 24 Jul 2024, at 17:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Thanks for the link. > I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. > > > So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. > > > Best, > Bill > > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Jul 25 10:39:41 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:39:41 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> Message-ID: Thank you Kevin I will compile my thoughts, but also make it succinct. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 3:54 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Happy to read such an email. You have my email address. Thanks. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 20:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Kevin, > > > If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? > I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is > constructive, and not hold back. > > > Thank you in advance. > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > > able to get online. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>> > > wrote: > > > > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, > what > > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > > firewall other security method)? > > > > > > -Dan > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 11:17:56 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:17:56 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking Hell In-Reply-To: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> References: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Message-ID: Simon: > If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" > I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. Exactly! It's a nightmare for many clients. > While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort > something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds > additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. Absolutely! Huge annoyance, and more busywork approvals per project is a no-go. Kevin: > As I've said several times now - we are not mandating tracking. See above, and your FAQ! Needs a very clear answer ... and a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 11:26:51 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:26:51 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > Sent from my iPhone > From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 11:30:22 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:30:22 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 11:51:39 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:51:39 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? Message-ID: The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." All unnecessary! A simple oversight: We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From prothero at ucsb.edu Thu Jul 25 12:08:36 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:08:36 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, Just checking.. I am a hobbyist, no income is made on my apps. But if I want to make an app that my wife or friend might use, I need to add seats for them? Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 12:12:04 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:12:04 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <736FC788-E875-4AD8-9FA0-D1D0DB7090F5@livecode.com> No. They are not commercial users - your company does not employ them, nor are they customers. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, Just checking.. I am a hobbyist, no income is made on my apps. But if I want to make an app that my wife or friend might use, I need to add seats for them? Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode > wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 12:13:19 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:13:19 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> Data hosting is already optional in a "standard way" - you don't have to actually use it! You can still build your app, connect to your own database (e.g. MySQL) hosted on your own server, build a standalone or a web app and distribute it yourself. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 16:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." All unnecessary! A simple oversight: We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Jul 25 12:15:05 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:15:05 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> Head of nail hit perfectly. Thanks, Curry. Concise as ever. Sean Cole > On 25 Jul 2024, at 16:51, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: > > "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. > > DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." > > All unnecessary! A simple oversight: > > We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. > > And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Thu Jul 25 12:15:50 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:15:50 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: i'm coming to this conversation, late, because i'm spending very little time coding, and most of my time managing. if i understand the pricing correctly, LC wants to charge $440/year for each mobile device that is running an app that we wrote (we don't have any publicly available apps, so the 5%, aka the sales commission, wouldn't apply). so, for the app that we use on kiosks in our plant, and have messed around with letting employees put on their own phones, we're talking about somewhere around $7,000 (16 devices) for our internal app, and another $20-25k for our customers' apps. i hope that i'm wrong about that. if i'm not, lc just entered the realm of uncompetitive for building and running these mobile apps. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it > correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would > be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal > users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding > is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well > as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including > myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company > does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make > generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 > standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I > do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there > was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re > incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build > and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer > seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less > than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about > buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The > expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at > the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know > how that will be calculated. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 12:27:21 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:27:21 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> References: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> Message-ID: <86b3f269-5a1b-40d9-9cbf-a415b9409e95@pair.com> Kevin: > Data hosting is already optional in a "standard way" - > you don't have to actually use it! Ahem - and not PAY for it when not used! LOL. Perhaps more than just data hosting, but similar problems.... Again, I'm already seeing and hearing: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. $$$. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." Toxic message to keep sending! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 12:29:43 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:29:43 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> References: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: <5dabf64d-4567-424e-998d-c47282f3ee08@pair.com> Sean: > Head of nail hit perfectly. Thanks, Curry. Concise as ever. Thanks Sean! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From prothero at ucsb.edu Thu Jul 25 12:30:50 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:30:50 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> Message-ID: <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 17:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> >> Thanks for the link. >> I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. >> >> >> So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. >> >> >> Best, >> Bill >> >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 12:55:38 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:55:38 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. Best Graham From gagsoft at iafrica.com Thu Jul 25 13:01:29 2024 From: gagsoft at iafrica.com (Peter Gagiano) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 19:01:29 +0200 (SAST) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1967632226.19736773.1721926889972.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Hi Heather. I do not know if Kevin forwarded this to you. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developer and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 13:07:41 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:07:41 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From martyknappster at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 14:06:46 2024 From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:06:46 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> I have a commercial app and we deal with people “sharing” the software with others. Is there a way to account for this? Let’s say one legit customer shares the software with 2 others and each of those people share with 2 others. Extrapolate that over time and that number could grow quite large. Will I be charged for all those illegitimate users? Marty Knapp > On Jul 25, 2024, at 10:07 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! > > Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Jul 25 14:47:40 2024 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:47:40 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004f01dadec3$243e42a0$6cbac7e0$@net> I guess that we will have to put in licensing code to prevent that by tying a specific install to one computer. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Marty Knapp via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2024 2:07 PM To: Use Livecode Cc: Marty Knapp Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something I have a commercial app and we deal with people “sharing” the software with others. Is there a way to account for this? Let’s say one legit customer shares the software with 2 others and each of those people share with 2 others. Extrapolate that over time and that number could grow quite large. Will I be charged for all those illegitimate users? Marty Knapp > On Jul 25, 2024, at 10:07 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! > > Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Jul 25 14:49:02 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 19:49:02 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - Co-development use case Message-ID: Hi Kevin or any one else in the know As you may know, I am kind of tied perpetually to Porrima who still has a valid LC9 subscription (afaik) and, while I don't subscribe anymore since my company's (& health's) demise, I still offer cleanup and updates for bits I developed on their commercial software, built in LC5.0.2 (and still works just fine, with a little TLS(ecurity) hack). This, I know, will not be affected by LC Create. I have two use-case questions: My first question is based on the case that if I were to develop on the LC9/LC10/Create versions of their software (which is needed to comply with various other security needs), do I ONLY pay for MY seat to develop my bits for them and THEY pay for both THEIR seats as required PLUS each end 'user' of their software which they build from their seat? As a quick follow-up to this, if the payment for end-users is never more than 5% of the app revenue, and only applies to revenue 'directly' generated by the app *if we use Create* to build apps for sale to the 'public' (by which I assume you mean any customer, business or public), not LC9 or 10, what actual percentage are we looking at if we only sell to one or two customers (small to medium businesses) who have sometimes just two or three actual users? Transparently, without going into private messages and conversations, what realistically are people (your customers) looking at? Cards on the table. The second is based on the scenario that those aforementioned customers occasionally have up to 20 or 30 people using the software during busy seasons. Do Porrima have to keep track and account for those fluctuations? Do other LC developers have to keep track of how many buyers of their software are still using it (by some kind of subscription or sign in method) and then work out what percentage they owe to you. And then, if they are on a free trial before getting a paid version, how does your 'phone home' system that people have been querying make allowance for those? This could get very complicated very quickly, especially for the small business just trying to get by but getting kicked out of business by yet another "buy-in to our Kickstarter (or else) before getting a finished product (maybe ever)" 'upgrade'. I'm trying to make this sound ok but I am getting the sick taste of Deja vu. I'm mentally much better now but this has been a bit of a trigger for me and, as I'm kinda forced into this messed up mess, I'm not entirely ok. Is it going to be, like LC10, another 4-6 years before LC Create becomes an RTM/GA/GR/GM/Stable Production release? Heck to that if that's the case. Sorry it's long but I think it's obvious why. Regards to all. Sean Cole Owner of Pi Digital Productions Ltd for 20 years before it's sad and untimely death (some might say murder ;)). From irog at mac.com Thu Jul 25 16:16:04 2024 From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:16:04 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Thanks for voicing my thoughts exactly, Bob! Roger > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:55 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. > > I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. > > Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. > > Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! > > All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! > > So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. > Bill > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Thu Jul 25 19:29:53 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:29:53 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. The following is from the FAQs. "If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." So that is not a problem I would say. But the tools I've created for free for family members and colleagues to use in their job would be a big problem if I would have to upgrade them after 2027. There is for example a command line tool with only 199 lines of code, which is used by 10 people. They do not call it directly, they even do not know that it is executed on their machine, but the ERP calls it under their Windows user account with some parameters every time the users send e-mails to a customer with documents attached from the ERP. The licensing alone for this small tool would cost for 1 Dev and 10 Users 4356 Euro per year. That is roundabout twice the annual maintenance fees for the ERP. The other thing is the "phone home". If for example a command line tool which shall be executed in "realtime" first has to phone home before it does for what it was created, I am wondering if this is not decreasing the performance. Kevin explained already, that it will be possible to create also apps that do not phone home, but this has to be discussed with LC Ltd. separately for each app. In my day job I am working as an IT-Security- and Data-Protection-Officer. So this Phone Home "feature" gives me in general a stomachache. Kevin already confirmed that LC Create/Native will comply GDRP. That's of course reassuring to know, but detailed information is needed about what data exactly is stored where and how. And also about how secure the data is. The technical organisational measures should contain all this information. I will wait and see what the future really brings. 3 years is a long time and yet somehow it isn't. My main goal is to stay and continue developing with Livecode (classic,Create,Native) even after 2027. But I will start looking for an commercial alternative that allows to deploy at least to Mac,Win,Linux. The mobile platforms and Web would be fine, but are not so important for me. Matthias > Am 25.07.2024 um 18:55 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : > > It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. > > I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. > > Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. > > Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! > > All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! > > So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. > Bill > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 19:46:09 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 23:46:09 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. From alex at tweedly.net Thu Jul 25 20:02:14 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:02:14 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: On 26/07/2024 00:46, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. > > Bob S Commercial ?  I guess so. But I don't see that it fits the criteria for "Internal apps"; that category is for apps that have been developed by a company, paying either an employee or contractor to develop it. In your case, you did the app in your own time, using your own LC license. You're not employed to do coding, and didn't get paid for any coding you did. The app, and any associated IP, belongs to you - not to any company. It therefore qualifies as an "app for sale". So put the app on an AppStore (or sell it directly), and pay the 5% of revenue plus one developer seat. Alex. > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) > > I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. > Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. > Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) > > The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Thu Jul 25 20:28:58 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 20:28:58 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Hello, I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. Thank you for your assistance. On 7/25/24 11:30, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a seat as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 seats at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Its the one signposted as something like growing the community. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think youre incorrect about there being no place for us in LCs future. We can build and distribute our non-ncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we dont yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From james at thehales.id.au Thu Jul 25 20:37:06 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James At The Hales) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:37:06 +1000 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: Perhaps it would help if there was a definition of a seat, re licensing. There seems to be confusion in parts. Making an app and selling it is fine, 5% of sale price per sale. Crystal clear. But, making an app and distributing it for free (via app store of whatever) or within a company is muddled. Some of Kevin’s replies seem to point to a cost for the distributed app equivalent to a “seat”. This doesn’t make sense to me unless the distributed app is using LC resources (e.g web systems or AI). I mean if the app is standalone (not using LC services) what does it matter if I give it freely to my friends or work colleagues? It is still a free app (from their point of view.) Surely a “seat” refers to developers accessing the Create IDE, to make apps. Not users of the app? So shouldn’t a distinction be made between “developer seats” and client/user seats that do or not access LC services? James From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Thu Jul 25 22:45:39 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 02:45:39 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Presumably(?) being in an educational setting means the whole internal apps licensing model doesn’t apply but I agree with James that it doesn’t seem quite equitableas it is currently designed and that there is a case for differentiating between developers and users. By way of comparison, a number of people in my work group use Trello and those users that need to create boards and edit board pay, but those who just need to access them don’t. What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them? Terry From: use-livecode on behalf of James At The Hales via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 10:38 AM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: James At The Hales Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something Perhaps it would help if there was a definition of a seat, re licensing. There seems to be confusion in parts. Making an app and selling it is fine, 5% of sale price per sale. Crystal clear. But, making an app and distributing it for free (via app store of whatever) or within a company is muddled. Some of Kevin’s replies seem to point to a cost for the distributed app equivalent to a “seat”. This doesn’t make sense to me unless the distributed app is using LC resources (e.g web systems or AI). I mean if the app is standalone (not using LC services) what does it matter if I give it freely to my friends or work colleagues? It is still a free app (from their point of view.) Surely a “seat” refers to developers accessing the Create IDE, to make apps. Not users of the app? So shouldn’t a distinction be made between “developer seats” and client/user seats that do or not access LC services? James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 02:42:19 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 02:42:19 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar Message-ID: Hi list, I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final layout when the loop is over. However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed something, it seems limited to players. Thank you in advance. jbv From james at thehales.id.au Fri Jul 26 02:53:41 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James Hale) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 16:53:41 +1000 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: Terry asked: "What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them?” You misunderstand me Terry, I think it is perfectly clear to count the use of a stack as a seat given it must use the LC IDE (either desktop or Web.) My confusion is in regard to compiled/standalone apps. The discussion so far seems to count them in the "needing a seat" group if they are say distributed in a company etc. So, to clarify, does a “seat” mean the use of the IDE is required? Which is pretty much the current situation. OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? James From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 02:54:08 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 06:54:08 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar Hi list, I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final layout when the loop is over. However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed something, it seems limited to players. Thank you in advance. jbv _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 03:12:30 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 03:12:30 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Hello Terry, Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting unlock screen lock screen within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but to no avail. Thank you anyway for the idea. Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a crit : > How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that > over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy > over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the > loop is done? > > From: use-livecode on behalf of > jbv via use-livecode > Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com > Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 03:40:44 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 07:40:44 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: I was thinking you would omit the lock screen altogether. Or if things are too slow without it can you move to a different card while all that other stuff is happening? From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 5:13 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com Subject: Re: Lockscreen and progress bar Hello Terry, Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting unlock screen lock screen within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but to no avail. Thank you anyway for the idea. Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : > How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that > over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy > over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the > loop is done? > > From: use-livecode on behalf of > jbv via use-livecode > Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com > Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 03:50:40 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 07:50:40 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I get what you are saying James, I’m just suggesting that there could be a lower cost version of create for ‘non-developer’ seats. That version doesn’t have access to the IDE and it’s only purpose run stacks or ‘apps’ that are produced by the full version of create. You would still need the same number of seats but at a more reasonable cost. Otherwise, I’m kinda struggling to see why you might choose LiveCode over other less constrained tools in an in-house commercial setting. Regards, Terry From: use-livecode on behalf of James Hale via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:55 PM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: James Hale Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something Terry asked: "What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them?” You misunderstand me Terry, I think it is perfectly clear to count the use of a stack as a seat given it must use the LC IDE (either desktop or Web.) My confusion is in regard to compiled/standalone apps. The discussion so far seems to count them in the "needing a seat" group if they are say distributed in a company etc. So, to clarify, does a “seat” mean the use of the IDE is required? Which is pretty much the current situation. OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From smk at anvic.net Fri Jul 26 03:56:58 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 08:56:58 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <380FDA24-2A02-4686-B70B-66D71D053C2F@anvic.net> James, I think it means : > On 26 Jul 2024, at 07:53, James Hale via use-livecode wrote: > > OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 05:16:04 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Colin Kelly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 09:16:04 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Like many here, I use LC to build utility apps to simplify some of the workflows in my workplace, most are raw and dirty but do the job I develop them for. I could create all of these using Python or the like but choose LC due to its simplicity and self-documenting nature as I don’t have to revisit the code often. One of LC strengths is the ease of looking at old code and been able to understand what’s going on. To-date we have many of these apps/applets running in my workplace with a growing workforce of around 180+/- employees. I find the new licensing modal just a tad hard to swallow, my £799 annual licensing fee is going to jump to circa £90k annually on the new licensing system, unless I’ve completely misunderstood the new licensing modal! I’m sure LC would offer to heavily discount this for me but I’m sure it’s not going to be anywhere near my usual £799/year! I’ve invested my own money into LC, supporting every kick-starter campaign, lifetime licensing campaign and paying for bolt-ons to help support the LC product through its various DP/RC stages, and to-date, not seen any really useful return on my investments! so feeling a little disappointed and let down with this latest change of direction! Needless to say, I won’t be presenting the new figures to my employers in my annual budget meeting as I would be laughed out of the room…. In the words of the Dragons Den; ……I’m out! Col. From: use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 00:47 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Bob Sneidar Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Fri Jul 26 05:42:02 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:42:02 +0100 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> Sent from my iPhone > On 26 Jul 2024, at 08:13, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello Terry, > > Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders > the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. > I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting > unlock screen > lock screen > within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but > to no avail. Unlock screen Wait 0 millisecs with messages Lock screen I think 🤔 Alex > > Thank you anyway for the idea. > > Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : >> How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? >> From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode >> Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com >> Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar >> Hi list, >> I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, >> precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. >> On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and >> also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final >> layout when the loop is over. >> However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar >> and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. >> How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed >> something, it seems limited to players. >> Thank you in advance. >> jbv >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Fri Jul 26 06:00:28 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:00:28 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> > On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: > > The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 k From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Jul 26 06:13:32 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:13:32 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> Message-ID: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? If you read the FAQs then it should be clear. Here’s again the part about free apps. “ If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." Especially the 2nd last line should answer it. Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 26.07.2024 um 12:01 schrieb Keith Martin via use-livecode : > >  >> >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 06:38:37 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 06:38:37 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> Actually I forgot that I had a "lock screen" at the very beginning of my script. And successive "lock screen" cumulate. Therefore the following sequence doesn't update the screen layout : lock screen ...... lock screen ...... unlock screen lock screen Funny how I can get stalled with very basic things sometimes... From General.2018 at outlook.com Fri Jul 26 06:37:22 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:37:22 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> Message-ID: Free Software has no EULA, not Commercial. Freeware has EULA and can be Commercial. Example, software has no cost but has Commercial licence. > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:01, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: > >  >> >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 06:45:25 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:45:25 +0100 Subject: The story so far Message-ID: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> Hi Folks, This has been a busy week and there has been a lot of discussion on here. Thank you to all of you who have contributed to the debate here on this list. I thought I'd post a quick summary of where our thinking is at so far. I obviously spoke to several dozen of you personally prior to making this change. We've now had the chance to speak to hundreds of you which has helped us to gain an even better understanding of our new model and the way forward. This is a big change and no matter how many people you speak to in advance, we expected to learn more after we went live. We are grateful for all the feedback we have had. The new entry price of $440 or $660, which is on average a reduction as it includes a lot more has been well received across most customer groups. It continues to allow hobbyists access to the platform too. The Application Payments model, for those of you creating apps to sell (or as freeware) has been well received. We've had very, very few objections to it and so I think we're pretty confident at this point that it's about as good as it can be. I'm proud of the way we've innovated here to allow small independent vendors to continue to use the platform in a way that most other low/no-code SaaS platforms haven't. We've had a little feedback on making the platform free for public high schools, which has been well received. After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. We still have a couple of outstanding questions about how our model applies to Server for a couple of use cases we didn't come across in our initial consultation and we'll work through those soon. The Internal apps model (for people building apps for use within their own organization) has gone over well in many cases. However I think there is perhaps a bit of a split between those who want to use the new Cloud hosting and data back end and those that don't want to use it, either because you have your own data back end or because you are creating smaller utilities that don't use data. Looking at the market as a whole and including new users, we've spoken to hundreds of people who do want to use the back end and the model and it is sitting pretty well for that group. For those of you that don't, my question is whether we have the volume discounting correct or whether we want to introduce a lower cost model at scale for that specific group. I'm not talking about changing the per-seat-for-commercial-end-users model, we're confident that's the right way forward. Our entire IP is in each standalone, and we have to scale with the value we create to have a successful business. We've learned that in our 20 years of history and the feedback this week has been ok on this point overall. I'm also not talking about changing costs for smaller numbers of seats. The question is whether we as a business want to also serve a segment without the Cloud hosting, at a better volume discount for higher seat numbers. This is a harder question than it looks, because so much of the benefit from the new platform comes from the new data back end. Giving new users a choice early in the process complicates their initial journey with us and potentially creates a confusing decision around one of the best new capabilities. It also has an impact on product engineering and the decisions we take there. On the other hand we want the platform to go on being practical for as many of you as possible. We appreciate your support over the years and this remains very important to us. There is a subset of you who are clearly not going to use the Cloud and for whom the new Internal model is presenting a challenge at scale. We will be reflecting on this question in the coming days. The other lesson from this week is that we need more text based content for those of you that don't want to consume information by video. We'll do some more worked examples on the mini-site next week in that form to help with that. Other than that, I would say this. If you only read this list you might be forgiven for thinking that the new pricing model hasn't been well received. While that’s certainly true in a number of cases (I'm sorry if that’s you!), the vast majority of responses (out of the many hundreds we have had now) are getting on board and generally the sentiment has been good. The initial feedback on the new Create builds from those of you that do now have access to it has also been good. I would ask if you've emailed in to please bear with us, we will get back to you as soon as we can. So overall we've taken an important step forward this week that will enable us to better serve our customers into the future and broadly it has been a success so far. We still have some questions to work on and we will continue to look at those. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:00:12 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:00:12 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Colin, I get that the new model is a disappointment and may not work for you. And I'm sorry about that. We are still considering the question you raised about using the platform alongside Power Apps and whether or not there should be any changes to the model at scale for those not using our data back end. Making changes is hard. We have to make changes in order to have a solid future, there is no other option for us. While I appreciate your feedback and I appreciate you have reasons to be disappointed, as this is a public post I need to correct the record. The price you just posted for that number of users is wildly inaccurate (we did quote you the correct price when I met with you). Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:03:26 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:03:26 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions Message-ID: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> Folks, I'm happy to go on discussing the licensing model in general on here as needed, for example edge cases or things that aren’t clear in the model, as it helps us to hone it. But at this point if you have individual questions about the costs for you under the new model, please email them to support and we can give you an accurate quote and talk you through your options. Otherwise we are going to be going over the same territory here on the list for some time to come! We’ll build out the information pages some more worked examples next week too. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From thatkeith at mac.com Fri Jul 26 07:06:36 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:06:36 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) k From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:42:31 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:42:31 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <49B30B7A-3204-4B0C-8A6B-F81FC7DF2322@livecode.com> Hi Bob, Thanks for posting this. If you ask 10 LiveCode customers what is important to them, you'll get 10 different answers. As an obvious example, I expect that if you were to ask others on this list about mobile, many people would disagree that mobile is less important. I appreciate you don't believe you need some of the new features we are delivering now. That might be actually true. Or it might be that you just haven't had a chance to try them yet. Either way that's ok. Many, many customers do see what we are delivering in Create as the top priority. I also appreciate there are features with reasonably broad appeal that we would like to be delivering sooner. That's an important part of what is driving the change in business model. We are delivering a lot of value, but not capturing it, so moving too slowly for some. We subsidize LiveCode development from our profitable services arm and there are limits to how much we can do that. We simply have to change all that. I would very much like to deliver a consistently better service without running promotions or crowd funding or anything else, just using licensing revenue. There is another context to think about our Create project from too. One of the questions we talk about often internally is - does our platform have what it takes to attract new users at a healthy and sustainable rate? This is something that should be important to you and all our community. The fact is that it takes something very different to attract a new customer today compared to days gone by. We don't have the luxury of standing still. Along with the desire to create a better product for the majority of you who do want the new capabilities, this question strongly contributes to the direction we are taking with Create. Creating and maintaining a strong ecosystem around the platform is vital to us all. A dear friend and mentor of mine has a favourite saying "if you don't like change, you'll like irrelevance even less". So I appreciate the input, and I hope you can understand that it doesn't perhaps create a viable strategy for the platform as a whole. In terms of your own licensing question - either these are commercial apps being created for your company as an employee or you're creating them in your own time and own the IP. You may be able apply Application Payments to the latter case. If you want specific input into your exact circumstance, I'm going to ask you to contact support where we will be happy to help. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 17:55, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. Bob S From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:43:29 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:43:29 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> References: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> Message-ID: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> Would it be better if it just said "Made with LiveCode"? Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 12:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Keith Martin via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: > > Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) k _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:56:06 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:56:06 +0100 Subject: Concerning your licensing questions and contacting support Message-ID: <7C2D1F82-9515-4AC6-818D-F829D34A8E1C@livecode.com> Dear All, Just to add to what Kevin said in his email - if you have specific licensing questions about your particular position, please do email support. If you've already emailed support - thank you, you've done the right thing. Please be patient as we work our way through the large volume of mail received. We will get to you, just as soon as we can. I would ask, please don't resend your email if we haven't yet replied. This just makes the queue even longer and slower to get through. If you got the support autoreply, we got your ticket. Furthermore... please don't email my personal email instead of support at livecode.com. It will delay your answer rather than speeding it up and you do run the risk of it drowning altogether. I do my best to rescue items sent to my personal inbox and forward them to support, but due to the very large volume in that inbox, things can get missed when I'm very busy. Warmest regards to all, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Jul 26 08:26:16 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 14:26:16 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> References: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> Message-ID: You mean without “Non-Commercial Use only”? No, that would not be better. Why? Because the normal user would not read a license file when such is available. “Made with Livecode - Non-Comercial Use only” shows the user right away, that the app is for “private” use only. Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 26.07.2024 um 13:43 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > Would it be better if it just said "Made with LiveCode"? > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 26/07/2024, 12:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Keith Martin via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. > > > Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. > > > The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) > > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From General.2018 at outlook.com Fri Jul 26 09:48:50 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 13:48:50 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: A Freeware app can have commercial use and bound via its EULA. Terms of use, copyright, disclaimers etc etc. Smart Televisions have freeware apps with the commercial profit only coming from the televisions sold. The freeware app has commercial purpose but does not generate income alone. definition :- “Commercial software is computer software that serves commercial purposes. It is created to make profit and can be either proprietary or free. The best example is Oracle. An authorized license is required to use the program, and the code is kept a secret. Thus, it cannot be distributed to third parties. At the same time, there are no restrictions in the package when it comes to features and the period of usage.” On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:53, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? If you read the FAQs then it should be clear. Here’s again the part about free apps. “ If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." Especially the 2nd last line should answer it. Von meinem iPad gesendet Am 26.07.2024 um 12:01 schrieb Keith Martin via use-livecode :  On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 k _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 26 10:53:42 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:53:42 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: after the emails from kevin and heather, this morning, here's hoping we get a discussion of a more typical/traditional corporate app dev tier, because that's what lc is. it's not a db server. it's not an application server, it's a app dev tool, for building standalone, single-threaded, engined binaries. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 8:30 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading > the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in > New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several > apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: > With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a > license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not > work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a > new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > On 7/25/24 11:30, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it > correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would > be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal > users within your company. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My > understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a > “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at > present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, > but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the > application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the > field. > > > > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 > standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I > do not make any money from the app?? > > > > > > Bob S > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > >> > >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > >> > >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there > was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > >> > >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re > incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build > and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer > seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less > than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about > buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The > expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at > the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know > how that will be calculated. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:07:26 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:07:26 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: Hello, I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. Thank you for your assistance. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:07:27 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:07:27 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <9CC69016-C756-48F5-B344-7B1B4747DF09@iotecdigital.com> According to the CEO of Livecode, my scenario DOES qualify as a commercial app, hence my consternation. I will have to pay 3 times what I currently pay now for a license just to maintain status quo, and expanding the number of users of my app is completely out of the question since I pay for the license myself. Bob S > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:02 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > > On 26/07/2024 00:46, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. >> >> Bob S > > Commercial ? I guess so. > > But I don't see that it fits the criteria for "Internal apps"; that category is for apps that have been developed by a company, paying either an employee or contractor to develop it. > > In your case, you did the app in your own time, using your own LC license. You're not employed to do coding, and didn't get paid for any coding you did. The app, and any associated IP, belongs to you - not to any company. It therefore qualifies as an "app for sale". > > So put the app on an AppStore (or sell it directly), and pay the 5% of revenue plus one developer seat. > > Alex. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:13:16 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:13:16 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96518804-F7AA-4F37-AB93-99850B6DA8FF@iotecdigital.com> The solution I came up with was a standalone that I could send messages to. I called it Spinner because I wanted to show a dialog that displayed a message and a spinning graphic while Livecode was processing handlers. I could send commands to show itself, hide itself, display a message and activate the graphic. A progress bar could have been added but I stopped using it for some reason. On MacOS I used Applescript to send commands, but you could use sockets just as easily. I think there are widgets now that will do what you want. My understanding is that widgets can be designed to run independent of Livecode’s single processing thread. Bob S > On Jul 25, 2024, at 11:42 PM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:16:10 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:16:10 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Try wait 1 millisecond with messages then lock screen again. But I have run into this issue where even when I pause execution by some means the screen does not update. I find the whole process unreliable, and by the way when you lock the screen then do something with a datagrid, the screen gets unlocked in the process because the datagrid library for reasons unknown unlocks the screen for certain operations. Bob S > On Jul 26, 2024, at 12:12 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello Terry, > > Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders > the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. > I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting > unlock screen > lock screen > within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but > to no avail. > > Thank you anyway for the idea. > > Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : >> How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? >> From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode >> Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com >> Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar >> Hi list, >> I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, >> precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. >> On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and >> also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final >> layout when the loop is over. >> However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar >> and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. >> How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed >> something, it seems limited to players. >> Thank you in advance. >> jbv >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:24:09 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:24:09 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <9179FE59-9D58-4C35-8914-6E39AFF58BED@iotecdigital.com> Because Kevin’s response to me in this exact scenario where I develop apps myself with I license I pay for myself, but employees of the company I work for use the app for business purposes, was that I have to pay for each user that uses my app. It is a commercial app because it is used in the workflow of the company I am an employee of, but I do not make any money on it, and if I approached my employer and asked for them to pay for it, they would decline. Bob S On Jul 26, 2024, at 3:13 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 11:36:07 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:36:07 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Hi Bob, Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages  without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:41:07 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:41:07 +0000 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> References: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> Message-ID: Concerning hosting, in my case when I initially developed the database for my application, it was hosted on the Livecode servers. When the owner of the company found out he had me take it down because he didn’t want company data on servers he did not own / control. That is probably going to be an issue that crops up with more developers using your hosting services. Bob S On Jul 26, 2024, at 3:45 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: The Internal apps model (for people building apps for use within their own organization) has gone over well in many cases. However I think there is perhaps a bit of a split between those who want to use the new Cloud hosting and data back end and those that don't want to use it, either because you have your own data back end or because you are creating smaller utilities that don't use data. Looking at the market as a whole and including new users, we've spoken to hundreds of people who do want to use the back end and the model and it is sitting pretty well for that group. For those of you that don't, my question is whether we have the volume discounting correct or whether we want to introduce a lower cost model at scale for that specific group. I'm not talking about changing the per-seat-for-commercial-end-users model, we're confident that's the right way forward. Our entire IP is in each standalone, and we have to scale with the value we create to have a successful business. We've learned that in our 20 years of history and the feedback this week has been ok on this point overall. I'm also not talking about changing costs for smaller numbers of seats. The question is whether we as a business want to also serve a segment without the Cloud hosting, at a better volume discount for higher seat numbers. This is a harder question than it looks, because so much of the benefit from the new platform comes from the new data back end. Giving new users a choice early in the process complicates their initial journey with us and potentially creates a confusing decision around one of the best new capabilities. It also has an impact on product engineering and the decisions we take there. On the other hand we want the platform to go on being practical for as many of you as possible. We appreciate your support over the years and this remains very important to us. There is a subset of you who are clearly not going to use the Cloud and for whom the new Internal model is presenting a challenge at scale. We will be reflecting on this question in the coming days. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:42:19 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:42:19 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Well given recent posts this morning I would contact Livecode Support and discuss you specific situation with them. Bob S > On Jul 26, 2024, at 8:36 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. >> >> Bob S >> >> >> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. >> >> My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. >> >> Thank you for your assistance. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 11:53:01 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Colin Kelly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:53:01 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Heriberto, I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for our specific needs. Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along for the ride as the product *nearly* matures I too will have to leave the LC community and seek alternatives… Col. From: use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 To: Bob Sneidar via use-livecode Cc: Heriberto Torrado Subject: Re: Livecode Future Hi Bob, Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 11:55:04 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:55:04 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> Bob, Thank you very much for your suggestion, but I have decided not to continue working with LiveCode. The constant changes in licensing pose a professional risk I cannot afford. I had a similar experience several years ago with Winautomation (now Microsoft Power Automate). They began charging for each automation developed with their app, and the license costs increased dramatically overnight. This forced me to stop using their software, and I am keen to avoid such unpleasant surprises in the future. As I primarily develop small desktop utilities, alternatives like Lazarus, Flutter, Electron, NW.js, or NeutralinoJS are more suitable for my needs. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:42, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Well given recent posts this morning I would contact Livecode Support and discuss you specific situation with them. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 26, 2024, at 8:36 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. >> >> In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. >> >> I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. >> >> As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. >> >> Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. >> >> After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. >> >> Best regards, >> Heriberto >> >> On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. >>> >>> My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. >>> >>> Thank you for your assistance. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 12:04:11 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:04:11 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase in development costs is a major concern. There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide the source code. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:53, Colin Kelly wrote: > > Hi Heriberto, > > I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new > licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for > our specific needs. > Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along > for the ride as the product **nearly** matures I too will have to > leave the LC community and seek alternatives > > Col. > > *From: *use-livecode on behalf > of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > *Date: *Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 > *To: *Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > *Cc: *Heriberto Torrado > *Subject: *Re: Livecode Future > > Hi Bob, > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, > it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small > applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, > a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption > tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each > user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar > one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us > since I only develop desktop applications. > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't > allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on > programming languages  without a big community and free licensing can > lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > > > Bob S > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully > reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company > in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed > several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is > straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need > to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, > but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am > considering purchasing a new license. > > > > Thank you for your assistance. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 12:40:47 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:40:47 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Basically my script takes a list of images, checks the imagedata of every image for possible white areas at the top, bottom, left or right, crops the image if necessary, resizes the image and groups it with fields created on the fly with text data from an xml file. When I simply lock the screen at the beginning of the main loop, everything works as expected. But when I use a group of objects on top of everything to hide the rest, with a couple of unlock/lock screen to update a progress bar and the content of a field in that top group, then imagedata processing stops working. I don't get any error, but it is as if images didn't feature any white area, when some of them actually do. I suspect there is a memory problem or something similar. From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 26 13:03:56 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 13:03:56 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: FWIW, i was thinking about an example of a competing product, and its pricing. here's xojo's "buy" url: https://xojo.com/store/ these are annual prices. it's actually a little less expensive than i would have guessed, but it is what it is. On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 12:05 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode > has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing > to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. > Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and > the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase > in development costs is a major concern. > > There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop > and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for > desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are > much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and > Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide > the source code. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:53, Colin Kelly wrote: > > > > Hi Heriberto, > > > > I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new > > licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for > > our specific needs. > > Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along > > for the ride as the product **nearly** matures I too will have to > > leave the LC community and seek alternatives… > > > > Col. > > > > *From: *use-livecode on behalf > > of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > > *Date: *Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 > > *To: *Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > > *Cc: *Heriberto Torrado > > *Subject: *Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, > > it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small > > applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, > > a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption > > tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each > > user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar > > one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us > > since I only develop desktop applications. > > > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't > > allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on > > programming languages without a big community and free licensing can > > lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > > > Best regards, > > Heriberto > > > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > > > > > Bob S > > > > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully > > reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > > > > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company > > in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed > > several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is > > straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need > > to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, > > but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am > > considering purchasing a new license. > > > > > > Thank you for your assistance. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Jul 26 13:08:14 2024 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:08:14 -0500 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> Message-ID: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > Folks, I'm happy to go on discussing the licensing model in general on here > as needed, for example edge cases or things that arent clear in the model, > as it helps us to hone it. But at this point if you have individual > questions about the costs for you under the new model, please email them to > support and we can give you an accurate quote and talk you through your > options. Otherwise we are going to be going over the same territory here on > the list for some time to come! Well build out the information pages some > more worked examples next week too. Thanks. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Fri Jul 26 13:49:49 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 17:49:49 +0000 Subject: The story so far Message-ID: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Fri Jul 26 19:48:09 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 09:48:09 +1000 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: > > I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not > work on Apple Silicon devices. That’s a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? Neville Smythe From dan at clearvisiontech.com Fri Jul 26 20:19:39 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 00:19:39 +0000 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> References: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: I missed that too. Where can I read the new (and updated) lifetime license policy? -Dan From: use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode Date: Friday, July 26, 2024 at 10:54 AM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: Richard Gaskin Subject: Re: The story so far Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 21:18:46 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 21:18:46 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately, my tests with various M1 and M2 Mac models using the community edition of LiveCode have yielded negative results. 1. The IDE opens but closes almost immediately. 2. Running a LiveCode app compiled for Intel-based Macs results in the error message: "This application cannot be run." I'm unsure if there is a compatibility option I can enable, but it appears that Rosetta 2 does not work with the IDE or the apps. Best, Heriberto On 7/26/24 19:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >> >> I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >> work on Apple Silicon devices. > > Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. > > Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? > > Neville Smythe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From selander at tkf.att.ne.jp Sat Jul 27 02:57:32 2024 From: selander at tkf.att.ne.jp (Tim Selander) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 15:57:32 +0900 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 -- I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! Tim Selander On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >> >> I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >> work on Apple Silicon devices. > > > Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. > > Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? > > Neville Smythe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Sat Jul 27 03:56:47 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 08:56:47 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Mike Just picking up on your email below from earlier. You would be eligible for the 5% if you had it available in a privately accessible part of a web site to download as a standalone. That is, I’m pretty sure, the correct understanding of this licensing. And if you are getting $0 Gross from it, 5% of nothing is nothing. If you are being paid for you app by the company you work for then it is of not only commercial ‘use’ but also commercially profitable, and therefore you would pay 5% on whatever you are paid for said app Gross (ie, not just the net profit - a bit like the 30% gross you would pay to Apple from their AppStore). If I’m wrong, someone correct me. Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 25 Jul 2024, at 17:15, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: > > i'm coming to this conversation, late, because i'm spending very little > time coding, and most of my time managing. > if i understand the pricing correctly, LC wants to charge $440/year for > each mobile device that is running an app that we wrote (we don't have any > publicly available apps, so the 5%, aka the sales commission, wouldn't > apply). > so, for the app that we use on kiosks in our plant, and have messed around > with letting employees put on their own phones, we're talking about > somewhere around $7,000 (16 devices) for our internal app, and another > $20-25k for our customers' apps. > i hope that i'm wrong about that. if i'm not, lc just entered the realm of > uncompetitive for building and running these mobile apps. From sean at pidigital.co.uk Sat Jul 27 04:07:51 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 09:07:51 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: That’s a superb idea. It’s very much like the one for Unreal Engine 5 I use. Theres is something more like $100,000 though. At that tip over point, it is quite a hike in costs though if you’ve been used to paying nothing and suddenly have to start paying $5000. But, hopefully by then you will have earned enough to support the 5% having still $95k left over :D We have to be reasonable. LC’s offer is actually, having done all the sums, actually really good. I feel that the biggest confusion on here is what a seat is and if it’s 5% of gross income from the app or a flat $499. I think that if that was described far more succinctly then all of these questions would disappear. Best Sean Cole > On 26 Jul 2024, at 18:08, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > I hope this is generic enough. > > I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. > > I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. > > I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: From dvglasgow at gmail.com Sat Jul 27 08:01:45 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 13:01:45 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> > On 3 Jul 2024, at 2:05 am, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > There is however > > filter elements of with into tLines; put line 1 of the keys of tLines into tFoundLine > > And that is still very fast on unicode, even though it will find all the lines matching str, not just the first. This can be an advantage or not. [Note does need to be set up to match a whole line] Ooooh! Interesting! I have an app I haven’t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear… Any thoughts/advice welcome. Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 27 10:25:55 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 10:25:55 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: sean, * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", "rapid report verification", it's $1999. * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the dev tools are primitive. * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes the servers. * all three of those products are multithreaded. * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a customer. * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on their phone. From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Sat Jul 27 16:14:53 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 13:14:53 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: Xojo is not true multithreaded. The threads are cooperative, not preemptive. It uses "workers" which are basically helper apps to sort of do multithreads. They are working on preemptive threads but no idea when that will happen. The IDE is written in Xojo so its use of threads is limited. My personal opinion... stay away from Xojo. Their CEO does not listen to customers and they spend more time renaming controls and events then actually adding value to the language. They have different names for controls on each platform, i.e. DesktopButton, IOSButton, AndroidButton so you cannot use GUI code between platforms. Documentation leaves a lot to be desired. I used Xojo for many years until they came out with API2 and started renaming everything just for the sake of renaming. Its a mess now. ---------------------------------------- From: "Mike Kerner via use-livecode" Sent: 7/27/24 9:28 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Mike Kerner Subject: Re: Livecode Future sean, * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", "rapid report verification", it's $1999. * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the dev tools are primitive. * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes the servers. * all three of those products are multithreaded. * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a customer. * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on their phone. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 27 17:23:19 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 17:23:19 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: i appreciate the feedback. we've looked at xojo, a number of times, but never written anything important in it. it was just an option that came to mind, immediately, when thinking about LC competitors, and their pricing. if we we decide to pull the plug on LC and rewrite our mobile apps, xojo would certainly be an environment we would consider. On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 4:16 PM Phil Smith via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Xojo is not true multithreaded. The threads are cooperative, not > preemptive. It uses "workers" which are basically helper apps to sort of > do multithreads. They are working on preemptive threads but no idea when > that will happen. The IDE is written in Xojo so its use of threads is > limited. > > My personal opinion... stay away from Xojo. Their CEO does not listen to > customers and they spend more time renaming controls and events then > actually adding value to the language. They have different names for > controls on each platform, i.e. DesktopButton, IOSButton, AndroidButton so > you cannot use GUI code between platforms. Documentation leaves a lot to > be desired. > > I used Xojo for many years until they came out with API2 and started > renaming everything just for the sake of renaming. Its a mess now. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Mike Kerner via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/27/24 9:28 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Mike Kerner > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > sean, > > * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment > > (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about > > their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to > > unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", > > "rapid report verification", it's $1999. > > * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, > > etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the > > dev tools are primitive. > > * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web > > server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two > > users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web > > clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that > > makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes > > the servers. > > * all three of those products are multithreaded. > > * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether > > 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial > > clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a > > customer. > > * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are > > not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on > > their phone. > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From ambassador at fourthworld.com Sat Jul 27 17:58:39 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 21:58:39 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Mike Kerner wrote: > i appreciate the feedback. we've looked at xojo, a number of times, > but never written anything important in it. it was just an option > that came to mind, immediately, when thinking about LC competitors, > and their pricing. I've been very immersed in vendor evaluation in recent years as I selected a web toolkit to build out some domain properties with. As I worked through that process, one of the things that became clearly useful for a thorough evalution is to not only look at vendor-managed forums, but also discussions beyond those as well, such as social media, etc. For Xojo, a thorough evaluation can benefit from visiting the forum for those who no longer feel comfortable having candid discussion in Xojo's own forum: https://ifnotnil.com/ Caveat: I haven't and don't plan to use Xojo in the foreseeable future, so I'm not endorsing any of the opinions expressed there one way or another. Not having used the product, I can offer no informed opinion about the views of those forum members. But as a content strategist and community builder I monitor many product ecosystems, and have found the discussion there interesting from a sentiment mining standpoint if nothing else. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 27 20:31:42 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:31:42 +1000 Subject: Filtering unicode text Message-ID: David Glasgow wrote > I have an app I haven?t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit > > I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear? I can’t say how Mark's technique would scale up to millions or hundreds of thousands of lines, but certainly in my case of around 1500 lines I got a 10x speedup, from an unacceptable 20 minutes to 2 minutes, processing a text file which had suddenly acquired a singe character requiring unicode. There is a caveat… I said line 1 of the keys is the first found line. That is not correct. Since arrays are stored in an internally determined way, the lines will one reported in an unpredictable order. So you may need to add a Sort overhead. Sort is still fast even for Unicode text, though scaling to millions of lines…I don’t know; hopefully the number of found lines would be small, so that wouldn’t be a problem. Just don’t search for “the”. The take-away lesson is to avoid anything which involves recursively finding line-endings in Unicode text, even if implicitly [A note to Mark W.: I still think the algorithm for “line k of tText” would be worth making more efficient - as I read your comments it uses a general case search processor for Unicode which has to take account of a large number of possible variants of representations of characters.] If your text is plain ascii or native (or if you could process an ascii version of the text for finding strings) the benefits of converting to an array may be less striking. But since the speed-up comes from the random access to the found lines I wouldn’t be surprised to find an advantage even there. The implementation of arrays seems to be extraordinarily efficient. [An OT thought just struck me - is that why NoSQL databases as used in AWC work? I know nothing about NoSQL or AWC but if I go on board with Create I may have to learn.] Neville Smythe From curry at pair.com Sat Jul 27 23:17:37 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 23:17:37 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: > $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. > we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, > for instance, on their phone. Well said! You summed it up perfectly. Thanks. What LC tier would work for you? My experience ... Consulting clients, big and small, have real-life budgets! Many already have servers and don't want to pay arm and leg extra. 5 to 10 users is considered modest, and they want it affordable. Most sure as heck don't want extra app fee if they hire one staff. More attractive 'Internal/Bespoke Apps' pricing for real-life clients: LC data: Halve the current user price BEFORE volume discounts. DIY data: 100 users per current user price! Honor system/trust. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From curry at pair.com Sun Jul 28 00:59:22 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 00:59:22 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking No-Hassle Solution Message-ID: I agreed with Simon on Tracking vs Privacy/Security: > If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" > I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. And old-fashioned busywork/paperwork Hassle to request opt outs - > additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. Solution ... 1. A truly modern and flexible automatic approach. When NOT using LC's data hosting, the Standalone Builder notices. No reason for high cost per user - thus, no reason for Tracking. 2. Or an easy LC data/Tracking opt out system via portal. Need control per project, though - clients/apps vary! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From skiplondon at gmail.com Sun Jul 28 09:14:03 2024 From: skiplondon at gmail.com (Skip Kimpel) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 08:14:03 -0500 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Wow… just catching up on this thread, and I have to say, I am more confused than ever! Not sure the licensing model needed to be this complicated and questioning if LC even knows who its end user is and what we are developing. I don’t mean to be trouble here, and I am probably misconstruing fact / speculation. If so, I apologize. Having said that, one should take notice at radical licensing model change failures, such as Unity. There are lessons to be learned out there. For the record, I love LC and its power and simplicity. I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Best regards, SKIP KIMPEL > On Jul 27, 2024, at 10:18 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > >  > Mike: > > > $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. > > we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, > > for instance, on their phone. > > Well said! You summed it up perfectly. Thanks. > What LC tier would work for you? > > My experience ... > > Consulting clients, big and small, have real-life budgets! > Many already have servers and don't want to pay arm and leg extra. > > 5 to 10 users is considered modest, and they want it affordable. > Most sure as heck don't want extra app fee if they hire one staff. > > More attractive 'Internal/Bespoke Apps' pricing for real-life clients: > > LC data: Halve the current user price BEFORE volume discounts. > DIY data: 100 users per current user price! Honor system/trust. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Sun Jul 28 10:32:14 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 15:32:14 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking No-Hassle Solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 28 Jul 2024, at 06:00, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > When NOT using LC's data hosting, the Standalone Builder notices. > > No reason for high cost per user - thus, no reason for Tracking. From my perspective (I know, I know: cue 'blind men describing an elephant'), this does sound eminently sensible. k From tom at makeshyft.com Sun Jul 28 13:10:35 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 13:10:35 -0400 Subject: Appwrite Cloud & Self-host Integration Message-ID: Hello Y'all... A couple of years ago I found the perfect solution for all my cloud hosting needs for now, and seemingly into the future. https://appwrite.io I am currently using appwrite cloud..... for $15 a month to have scalable cloud infrastructure. They also have a free tier. The best part is however, that whenever I am ready, I migrate my cloud data to self hosted Appwrite. Appwrite is fully open source and continuously improved by a funded team. The featureset is very impressive I can confirm that appwrite rest api works great with livecode. serverless functions can take care of server side functions that you don't want to do through client. It has everything one needs to host an any app in the cloud. So far, I have integrated: - Authentication, email / password. - creating a session - CRUD for database - and object storage upload (currently only small files upload, needs a little work.) - I also have some php serverless functions (which appwrite does as well) that help in server side tasks, like creating a wordpress user when a new appwrite user is created If anyone is worried about livecode's cloud pricing, remember that you don't actually have to use it. I will share my appwrite integration with anyone upon request, and eventually when I have more time I will put it out there on github. I might put it under GPL, so that if someone adds another function to the integration, the library can grow. I have not generalized the handlers yet for general use, but I can do it Just reach out if you have need of it. Thanks, Tom From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Sun Jul 28 15:10:04 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 19:10:04 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 Message-ID: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> Hi David, Here is a script that lets you compare filter operations on lists or arrays. With and without unicode. put it into a button and make a field "fRes" and hold down the option/alt key to test unicode, else it is ASCII. ----------------------------------------------------- on mouseUp put 10000 into tHowMany -- hold down optionKey/altKey to use unicode put the optionKey is down into tUnicode if tUnicode then put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a" & \ " Höfuðborgarsvæðið,a dog is a dog" into tData ## with unicode else put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a " & \ "chicken,a dog is a dog" into tData ## without unicode end if repeat tHowMany put any item of tData & cr after tCollect end repeat delete char - 1 of tCollect put tCollect into tList put tCollect into tForArray if tUnicode then put the milliseconds into t1 filter tList with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split split tForArray by return -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split filter elements of tForArray with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode combine tForArray by return put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime else put the milliseconds into t1 filter tList with "*dog*" ## without unicode put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split split tForArray by return put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split filter elements of tForArray with "*dog*" ## with unicode combine tForArray by return put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime end if put "Unicode: " & tUnicode & ", Lines: " & tHowMany & cr & "List: " & \ tListTime & " ms" & cr & "Array: " & tArrayTime & " ms" \ & cr & the long time into field "fRes" end mouseUp ----------------------------------------------------- Kind regards Bernd From curry at pair.com Sun Jul 28 18:21:49 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 18:21:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Skip: > Wow just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) Skip: > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. Pay full price for developer seats... But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 03:28:33 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:28:33 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Message-ID: Seriously, Curry, you are so good at summing these things up. It's what makes you such a great writer and consultant no doubt. I hope you are heard through this mist. On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 at 23:21, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Skip: > > > Wow… just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! > > Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. > > Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: > > - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' > > - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' > - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) > > - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... > - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' > - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! > - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. > > - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... > - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. > - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) > > Skip: > > > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) > > Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: > Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. > > They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. > > So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! > I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. > > Pay full price for developer seats... > But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! > > I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? > (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) > So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) > > (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - > Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, > so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From dvglasgow at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 03:34:53 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:34:53 +0100 Subject: Filtering unicode text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. As ever, interesting and helpful. Cheers David G > On 28 Jul 2024, at 1:31 am, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > David Glasgow wrote > >> I have an app I haven?t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit >> >> I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear? > > I can’t say how Mark's technique would scale up to millions or hundreds of thousands of lines, but certainly in my case of around 1500 lines I got a 10x speedup, from an unacceptable 20 minutes to 2 minutes, processing a text file which had suddenly acquired a singe character requiring unicode. > > There is a caveat… I said line 1 of the keys is the first found line. That is not correct. Since arrays are stored in an internally determined way, the lines will one reported in an unpredictable order. So you may need to add a Sort overhead. Sort is still fast even for Unicode text, though scaling to millions of lines…I don’t know; hopefully the number of found lines would be small, so that wouldn’t be a problem. Just don’t search for “the”. > > The take-away lesson is to avoid anything which involves recursively finding line-endings in Unicode text, even if implicitly [A note to Mark W.: I still think the algorithm for “line k of tText” would be worth making more efficient - as I read your comments it uses a general case search processor for Unicode which has to take account of a large number of possible variants of representations of characters.] > > If your text is plain ascii or native (or if you could process an ascii version of the text for finding strings) the benefits of converting to an array may be less striking. But since the speed-up comes from the random access to the found lines I wouldn’t be surprised to find an advantage even there. The implementation of arrays seems to be extraordinarily efficient. [An OT thought just struck me - is that why NoSQL databases as used in AWC work? I know nothing about NoSQL or AWC but if I go on board with Create I may have to learn.] > > > Neville Smythe > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dvglasgow at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 03:38:23 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:38:23 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> References: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> Message-ID: <6EC21EEC-4EAB-421D-9FC3-BDE2CF597A8C@gmail.com> Many thanks, I will definitely include this in my testing. Cheers David G > On 28 Jul 2024, at 8:10 pm, Niggemann, Bernd via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi David, > > Here is a script that lets you compare filter operations on lists or arrays. With and without unicode. > > put it into a button and make a field "fRes" and hold down the option/alt key to test unicode, else it is ASCII. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > on mouseUp > put 10000 into tHowMany > -- hold down optionKey/altKey to use unicode > put the optionKey is down into tUnicode > if tUnicode then > put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a" & \ > " Höfuðborgarsvæðið,a dog is a dog" into tData ## with unicode > else > put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a " & \ > "chicken,a dog is a dog" into tData ## without unicode > end if > > repeat tHowMany > put any item of tData & cr after tCollect > end repeat > delete char - 1 of tCollect > > put tCollect into tList > put tCollect into tForArray > > if tUnicode then > put the milliseconds into t1 > filter tList with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode > put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime > > put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split > split tForArray by return > -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split > filter elements of tForArray with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode > combine tForArray by return > put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime > else > put the milliseconds into t1 > filter tList with "*dog*" ## without unicode > put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime > > -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split > split tForArray by return > put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split > filter elements of tForArray with "*dog*" ## with unicode > combine tForArray by return > put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime > > end if > put "Unicode: " & tUnicode & ", Lines: " & tHowMany & cr & "List: " & \ > tListTime & " ms" & cr & "Array: " & tArrayTime & " ms" \ > & cr & the long time into field "fRes" > end mouseUp > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards > Bernd > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From georges at caen.one Mon Jul 29 05:46:31 2024 From: georges at caen.one (Georges Malamoud) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 11:46:31 +0200 Subject: Appwrite Cloud & Self-host Integration In-Reply-To: <46af36ff0f63bf8de9e97383565f6728@caen.one> References: <46af36ff0f63bf8de9e97383565f6728@caen.one> Message-ID: Hello and thanks I use Hostm with LC Server. Very good integration and small prices https://www.hostm.com/livecode-hosting No problem until now Georges > A couple of years ago I found the perfect solution for all my cloud hosting > needs for now, and seemingly into the future. > https://appwrite.io > > https://appwrite.io > needs for now, and seemingly into the future. > > Tom Glod tom at makeshyft.com From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:26:32 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:26:32 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> wrote: From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:26:47 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:26:47 +0100 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> References: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <5E18D94C-B7A7-45E2-A3AC-D055E6583611@livecode.com> Sent off list. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:03 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:03 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <779B0EC4-E6DF-4837-8A36-A86CEF6AC349@livecode.com> Thanks Sean. It’s a big change and we are doing our best to explain it as clearly as we can. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 27/07/2024, 09:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Pi Digital via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: That’s a superb idea. It’s very much like the one for Unreal Engine 5 I use. Theres is something more like $100,000 though. At that tip over point, it is quite a hike in costs though if you’ve been used to paying nothing and suddenly have to start paying $5000. But, hopefully by then you will have earned enough to support the 5% having still $95k left over :D We have to be reasonable. LC’s offer is actually, having done all the sums, actually really good. I feel that the biggest confusion on here is what a seat is and if it’s 5% of gross income from the app or a flat $499. I think that if that was described far more succinctly then all of these questions would disappear. Best Sean Cole From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:21 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:21 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CD3E9AB-A7F1-4DC6-8919-362549530988@livecode.com> Don't forget we have videos that explain both the rationale and the model. https://future.livecode.com Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 28/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Skip Kimpel via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: Wow… just catching up on this thread, and I have to say, I am more confused than ever! Not sure the licensing model needed to be this complicated and questioning if LC even knows who its end user is and what we are developing. I don’t mean to be trouble here, and I am probably misconstruing fact / speculation. If so, I apologize. Having said that, one should take notice at radical licensing model change failures, such as Unity. There are lessons to be learned out there. For the record, I love LC and its power and simplicity. I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Best regards, SKIP KIMPEL From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:36 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: That’s not what Create is. It’s a cloud based environment where we host your apps, run scripts and provide an integrated data backend. There may be other options to move forward available for existing users who contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 15:53, "use-livecode on behalf of Mike Kerner via use-livecode" after the emails from kevin and heather, this morning, here's hoping we get a discussion of a more typical/traditional corporate app dev tier, because that's what lc is. it's not a db server. it's not an application server, it's a app dev tool, for building standalone, single-threaded, engined binaries. From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:55 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:55 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <2033353B-6F48-455E-8870-742DF13A96DB@livecode.com> Precisely. There are free products in the marketplace and products far more expensive than LiveCode too. Appian costs $75 per user with a minimum of 100 users so $7500 per month. Either the benefits that LiveCode bring are worth the price to you or they aren't. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 17:04, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase in development costs is a major concern. There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide the source code. Best regards, Heriberto From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:09 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:09 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Message-ID: We have discussed internally whether to produce an option without the Cloud backend for Create. We're not going to do it. It would create additional engineering costs, confusion about the offering for new users and a lot of the value in Create is elsewhere in the redevelopments we've done not just in the Cloud. People already have lots of questions just figuring out the difference between Internal Apps and Apps for Sale, another option isn't going to be a positive thing. You don't have to use our cloud, but we aren't going to be removing it by default. For those of you that have large internal user packs and are finding this challenging, please contact support directly. We may have other options available for existing customers in certain cases. Kind regards, Kevin On 28/07/2024, 23:21, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode Skip: > Wow… just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) Skip: > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. Pay full price for developer seats... But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:13 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:13 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <111EBB93-D74A-44D1-8559-7FC147310829@livecode.com> Changing licensing terms is not unique to us. One average successful software companies change pricing 3-4 times per year. I'm not sure that all other companies that change licensing have their CEO involved talking to customers either. And remember, we haven't changed the licensing for the existing platform which you can continue to use on the same terms up until its end of life in 2027. The new licensing is for the new platform. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 16:55, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode Bob, Thank you very much for your suggestion, but I have decided not to continue working with LiveCode. The constant changes in licensing pose a professional risk I cannot afford. I had a similar experience several years ago with Winautomation (now Microsoft Power Automate). They began charging for each automation developed with their app, and the license costs increased dramatically overnight. This forced me to stop using their software, and I am keen to avoid such unpleasant surprises in the future. As I primarily develop small desktop utilities, alternatives like Lazarus, Flutter, Electron, NW.js, or NeutralinoJS are more suitable for my needs. Best regards, Heriberto From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:29 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:29 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <8C69B1CD-D947-48D9-8E25-849176DA375F@livecode.com> The charge is not per app, it is per user. You can supply as many apps as you like to any licensed user. I'm sorry if you think LiveCode isn't suitable for your needs. As an existing customer I invite you to contact support directly. Kind regards, Kevin In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 09:45:47 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 09:45:47 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tim, Yes, that could be the problem. All computers I've tested livecode run MacOs Sonoma. Best, Hery On 7/27/24 02:57, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: > It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 -- > I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! > > Tim Selander > > > On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> >>> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >>> >>>   I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >>> work on Apple Silicon devices. >> >> >> Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for  my >> Community work. >> >> Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple >> Silicon? >>   Neville Smythe >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Mon Jul 29 10:07:45 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 07:07:45 -0700 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 10:16:01 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:16:01 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52831113-a29a-4e34-bc99-b8f2c733b075@researchware.com> Because of a change Apple made in Sonoma, only LC 6.9.11 and higher will work on that and future macOSes On 7/29/2024 9:45 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > Hi Tim, > > Yes, that could be the problem. All computers I've tested livecode run > MacOs Sonoma. > > Best, > Hery > > > On 7/27/24 02:57, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: >> It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 >> -- I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! >> >> Tim Selander >> >> >> On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >>>> >>>>   I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >>>> work on Apple Silicon devices. >>> >>> >>> Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for  >>> my Community work. >>> >>> Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple >>> Silicon? >>>   Neville Smythe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 10:35:15 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:35:15 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> Message-ID: <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > >>> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Mon Jul 29 10:57:05 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 07:57:05 -0700 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> Message-ID: <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > >>> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 11:25:37 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:25:37 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> References: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A133D12-996E-48DB-A7EB-FB49CAAA5ACE@iotecdigital.com> I don’t see how that would be faster. You are adding string processing overhead, not reducing it. Arrays work well because you already have an index of sorts (the keys of the array). On Jul 27, 2024, at 5:01 AM, David V Glasgow via use-livecode wrote: I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear… Any thoughts/advice welcome. Cheers David G David Glasgow From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 13:25:23 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:25:23 -0400 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> Message-ID: HI Phill, The subscription and download payment model began in the world of video games with downloadable content (DLC). Many software manufacturers quickly realized that charging for content downloads or monthly application use could be a lucrative business. This model has since evolved into SaaS (Software as a Service) payments. However, this approach is fundamentally unfair, as users must continue paying for the software even if they do not need continuous updates, or they must stop using it altogether. This situation is as absurd as buying bricks and mortar to build a house and then being forced to pay a monthly fee for those materials, even if you do not want your house renovated every six months. This critique is not aimed at Livecode specifically but at the software industry in general. Over time, people will likely begin to reject this business model and seek alternatives. This scenario mirrors the 1980s when people, frustrated with the high prices of mainframes and minicomputers, switched to personal computers. Similarly, those fed up with the exorbitant costs of UNIX systems transitioned to Windows NT and eventually to LINUX. While you can exploit customers for a while when they feel captive, they are much smarter and more resourceful than companies might think. Best, Hery On 7/29/24 10:57, Phil Smith via use-livecode wrote: > Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. > > I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. > > But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions > > I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com ~http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf ofuse-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. > > That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. > > Really don't understand that statement. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > > > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions > > From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. > > However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: > > I hope this is generic enough. > > I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago > > or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books > > or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 > > or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an > > incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few > > requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I > > know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. > > My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. > > I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars > > more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because > > it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are > > now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not > > feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. > > I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is > > required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% > > rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. > > -- > > Jacqueline Landman Gay |jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> > > HyperActive Software |http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> > > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > >>> wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dougr at telus.net Mon Jul 29 13:36:14 2024 From: dougr at telus.net (Douglas A. Ruisaard) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:36:14 -0700 Subject: unsubscribing Message-ID: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for many, many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. Have a good one! Douglas Ruisaard From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 14:08:39 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:08:39 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47FEE99E-5F44-45F6-BF64-797A51A0DB19@pidigital.co.uk> The fallacy to your analogy is that with the new LC Create, you will be paying for (or at least subsidising) the server it is run from and the database storage (even if you don’t make use of it). For LC9 the analogy holds up. But as that’s going away it would seem LCLtd are kinda doing the ‘right thing’ by making it a full service rather than pure software and charge a sub. Sorry, I know that’s triggered a number on here. Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:25, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > HI Phill, > > The subscription and download payment model began in the world of video games with downloadable content (DLC). Many software manufacturers quickly realized that charging for content downloads or monthly application use could be a lucrative business. This model has since evolved into SaaS (Software as a Service) payments. However, this approach is fundamentally unfair, as users must continue paying for the software even if they do not need continuous updates, or they must stop using it altogether. > > This situation is as absurd as buying bricks and mortar to build a house and then being forced to pay a monthly fee for those materials, even if you do not want your house renovated every six months. This critique is not aimed at Livecode specifically but at the software industry in general. Over time, people will likely begin to reject this business model and seek alternatives. > > This scenario mirrors the 1980s when people, frustrated with the high prices of mainframes and minicomputers, switched to personal computers. Similarly, those fed up with the exorbitant costs of UNIX systems transitioned to Windows NT and eventually to LINUX. While you can exploit customers for a while when they feel captive, they are much smarter and more resourceful than companies might think. > > Best, > Hery > >> On 7/29/24 10:57, Phil Smith via use-livecode wrote: >> Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. >> >> I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. >> >> But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" >> Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: Kevin Miller >> Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >> >> I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com ~http://www.livecode.com/ >> >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf ofuse-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. >> >> That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. >> >> Really don't understand that statement. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > >> >> Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM >> >> To: How to use LiveCode > >> >> Cc: Kevin Miller > >> >> Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >> >> From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. >> >> However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > >> >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >> >> I hope this is generic enough. >> >> I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago >> >> or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books >> >> or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 >> >> or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an >> >> incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few >> >> requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I >> >> know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. >> >> My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. >> >> I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars >> >> more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because >> >> it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are >> >> now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not >> >> feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. >> >> I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is >> >> required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% >> >> rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. >> >> -- >> >> Jacqueline Landman Gay |jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> >> >> HyperActive Software |http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> >> >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> >> > >>> wrote: >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From andre at andregarzia.com Mon Jul 29 14:35:44 2024 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:35:44 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a useless conversation. On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for > many, > many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is > boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look > to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > Have a good one! > > Douglas Ruisaard > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- https://www.andregarzia.com Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 15:14:35 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:14:35 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and authored several great books about it, you understand the software and its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, provides a small financial boost. In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and acquaintances. No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. I understand why Douglas is so mad. Best, Hery Best, Hery On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. >> Have a good one! >> >> Douglas Ruisaard >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 15:16:43 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:16:43 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question Message-ID: I have an export routine I am writing and it expects timestamps in the following format: 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z I can output LC dates and times in any format, but I personally have not seen this format before. The "T" is obviously just a delimited between the data and time, but my question is the "Z" at the end? Is this just a delimiter or does it indicate time zone (and in "zulu" time, i.e GMT)? Or something else? Anyone seen this timestamp format before and know the details of it? Thanks in advance, From curry at pair.com Mon Jul 29 15:35:46 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:35:46 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fe38e09-f1e6-491f-ae15-1364a9b3824d@pair.com> Paul: > it expects timestamps in the following format: > 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z Looks like MS Word Comments timestamp? If so, I can advise on the "Z"! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Mon Jul 29 15:39:23 2024 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:39:23 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701dae1ef$071a04f0$154e0ed0$@net> I would think Zulu... Sitemaps use the same format with a time zone offset instead of the "Z" 2022-11-15T11:41:03+05:00 Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 3:17 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Paul Dupuis Subject: Date and time format question I have an export routine I am writing and it expects timestamps in the following format: 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z I can output LC dates and times in any format, but I personally have not seen this format before. The "T" is obviously just a delimited between the data and time, but my question is the "Z" at the end? Is this just a delimiter or does it indicate time zone (and in "zulu" time, i.e GMT)? Or something else? Anyone seen this timestamp format before and know the details of it? Thanks in advance, _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Mon Jul 29 15:44:12 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:44:12 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ... 'Utc date and time values uses "Z" (which stands for zero offset) to represent UTC.' (MS) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 15:47:24 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:47:24 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c34646a-1cd6-468c-87ed-9d9c7eb2e118@researchware.com> Thank you all (and especially Curry for confirming what I though the Z was for) On 7/29/2024 3:44 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > ... 'Utc date and time values uses "Z" (which stands for zero offset) > to represent UTC.' (MS) > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 17:09:37 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:09:37 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Follow up question/request: put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 17:09:34 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:09:34 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: The way I read it was that Doulas was just bored with the conversation and not interested in having the messages pour into his inbox. So he has unsub'd temporarily while we chit-chat about it then come back once the cat in-fighting has gone away. He was upset with us, not the business model. Like he says effectively, this is the "USE" livecode list, not the "Moan About" forum ;) He's kinda right though, isn't he :/ On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:14, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create > small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people > here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For > many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, > provides a small financial boost. > > In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from > small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never > been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and > acquaintances. > > No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new > conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage > remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the > small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about > micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How > can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? > > With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. > > I understand why Douglas is so mad. > > Best, > Hery > > Best, > Hery > > On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > > useless conversation. > > > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for > >> many, > >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing > debacle is > >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who > look > >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to > >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > >> Have a good one! > >> > >> Douglas Ruisaard > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:37:56 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:37:56 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Follow up question/request: > > put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset > > Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? > > It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. > > If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:44:53 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:44:53 +0000 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1A8B75C3-A8DB-4D6A-B6E3-456AFEE78685@iotecdigital.com> Many are losing their ability to maintain internal apps, others are losing their ability to make at least a part of their living. I would not characterize that as cat in-fighting. On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Sean Cole via use-livecode wrote: once the cat in-fighting has gone away. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:55:42 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:55:42 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0182B3D7-A431-416C-A9DB-5936AC426983@iotecdigital.com> That doesn’t work I’ll get back to you. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Convert it to dateitems, then back again. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Follow up question/request: >> >> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >> >> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >> >> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >> >> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 18:02:17 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:02:17 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. function refiXMLTimestamp   -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT   local tTimestamp   get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400   -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space   -- the day of the month   -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name   -- the four-digit year   -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons   -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time   set the itemDel to space   put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm   set the itemDel to comma   convert it to seconds   -- the year   -- the month number   -- the day of the month   -- the hour in 24-hour time   -- the minute   -- the second   -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth   put    char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset   delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset   put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset   -- adjust time to zulu/gmt   add tSecOffset to it   convert it to dateItems   -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC   put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it)           into tTimestamp -- the date in new format   put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format   return tTimestamp end refiXMLTimestamp On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Convert it to dateitems, then back again. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Follow up question/request: >> >> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >> >> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >> >> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >> >> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:14:31 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:14:31 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Simpler than that: on mouseUp put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset -- delete last word of tDateTime convert tDateTime to seconds put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset add tOffset to tDateTime convert tDateTime to long date and long time put tDateTime end mouseUp Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. > > I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. > > function refiXMLTimestamp > -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT > local tTimestamp > get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 > -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space > -- the day of the month > -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name > -- the four-digit year > -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons > -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time > set the itemDel to space > put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm > set the itemDel to comma > convert it to seconds > -- the year > -- the month number > -- the day of the month > -- the hour in 24-hour time > -- the minute > -- the second > -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth > put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset > delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset > put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset > -- adjust time to zulu/gmt > add tSecOffset to it > convert it to dateItems > -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC > put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format > put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format > return tTimestamp > end refiXMLTimestamp > > On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Follow up question/request: >>> >>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>> >>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>> >>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>> >>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:30:20 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:30:20 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: … > put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset … Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Simpler than that: > > on mouseUp > put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime > put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset > -- delete last word of tDateTime > convert tDateTime to seconds > put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset > add tOffset to tDateTime > convert tDateTime to long date and long time > put tDateTime > end mouseUp > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >> >> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >> >> function refiXMLTimestamp >> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >> local tTimestamp >> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >> -- the day of the month >> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >> -- the four-digit year >> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >> set the itemDel to space >> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >> set the itemDel to comma >> convert it to seconds >> -- the year >> -- the month number >> -- the day of the month >> -- the hour in 24-hour time >> -- the minute >> -- the second >> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >> add tSecOffset to it >> convert it to dateItems >> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >> return tTimestamp >> end refiXMLTimestamp >> >> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Follow up question/request: >>>> >>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>> >>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>> >>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>> >>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:34:52 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:34:52 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: > > … >> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset > … > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Simpler than that: >> >> on mouseUp >> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >> -- delete last word of tDateTime >> convert tDateTime to seconds >> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >> add tOffset to tDateTime >> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >> put tDateTime >> end mouseUp >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >>> >>> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >>> >>> function refiXMLTimestamp >>> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >>> local tTimestamp >>> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >>> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >>> -- the day of the month >>> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >>> -- the four-digit year >>> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >>> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >>> set the itemDel to space >>> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >>> set the itemDel to comma >>> convert it to seconds >>> -- the year >>> -- the month number >>> -- the day of the month >>> -- the hour in 24-hour time >>> -- the minute >>> -- the second >>> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >>> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >>> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >>> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >>> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >>> add tSecOffset to it >>> convert it to dateItems >>> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >>> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >>> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >>> return tTimestamp >>> end refiXMLTimestamp >>> >>> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>>> >>>> Bob S >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Follow up question/request: >>>>> >>>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>>> >>>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>>> >>>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 18:39:32 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:39:32 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: While I appreciate the feedback, we have spent millions of dollars in platform development and we are not going to sell the new platform with a business model that is not sustainable. That would not be in the interests of any of our customers, the community or the longevity of the platform as a whole. No amount of feedback from a small but vocal minority is going to change this situation. The majority of customers who have contacted us directly - and an order of magnitude more have done so than have posted publicly, including customers of all shapes and sizes, have been positive about the changes and willing to work with us. Our platform has been around in one form or another for an exceptionally long time. The industry is changing and we need to reinvent ourselves along with everyone else. We have done so in the past in different ways and with your support we can do so now. If you are one of those customers than I would like to thank you for your understanding, it is greatly appreciated. If you are an existing LiveCode customer with an active license who has been adversely affected by the new licensing changes, then please contact support at livecode.com where we will be very happy to assist you. It is possible there may be additional options available for you that are not available here in this public forum. Kind regards, Kevin PS. I'm not entirely sure I understand (yet) why this is such a deal breaker for you. At 200-300 euros a month adding a $150 (annual) seat is an additional 11.55 eur monthly cost. Nor is it clear you have applied the correct new licensing model for your situation. But anyway let's take this off list and we can go through it properly and see how we can help. Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 20:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and authored several great books about it, you understand the software and its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, provides a small financial boost. In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and acquaintances. No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. I understand why Douglas is so mad. Best, Hery Best, Hery On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. >> Have a good one! >> >> Douglas Ruisaard >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 19:11:12 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:11:12 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Thanks! You math to do the offset is much simpler. On 7/29/2024 6:34 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: >> >> Actually its possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: >> >> >>> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset >> >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Simpler than that: >>> >>> on mouseUp >>> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >>> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >>> -- delete last word of tDateTime >>> convert tDateTime to seconds >>> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >>> add tOffset to tDateTime >>> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >>> put tDateTime >>> end mouseUp >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >>>> >>>> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >>>> >>>> function refiXMLTimestamp >>>> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >>>> local tTimestamp >>>> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >>>> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >>>> -- the day of the month >>>> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >>>> -- the four-digit year >>>> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >>>> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >>>> set the itemDel to space >>>> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >>>> set the itemDel to comma >>>> convert it to seconds >>>> -- the year >>>> -- the month number >>>> -- the day of the month >>>> -- the hour in 24-hour time >>>> -- the minute >>>> -- the second >>>> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >>>> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >>>> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >>>> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >>>> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >>>> add tSecOffset to it >>>> convert it to dateItems >>>> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >>>> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >>>> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >>>> return tTimestamp >>>> end refiXMLTimestamp >>>> >>>> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>>>> >>>>> Bob S >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow up question/request: >>>>>> >>>>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>>>> >>>>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 29 19:12:11 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:12:11 +0000 Subject: unsubscribing Message-ID: <5ed91a5aa619588f6d0dc243173fad3edc701b50@fourthworld.com> Whether discussing the viability of the LC platform is "boring" compared to every list subscriber receiving email notifications of the comings and goings of one member, he may have a point. The company appears firmly committed to their plans to replace it with a new platform. Any remaining details involving licensing fees have been requested to be handled in private. Any implications for attracting newcomers haven't been part of this discussion. And some of the business planning for folks uncertain about things may not involve using LiveCode at all. So perhaps a use-livecode list isn't the best place. If a consensus emerges that perhaps business planning conversations would be better handled elsewhere, I could dust off the forum at livecodejournal.com. Wouldn't take but a few minutes if enough people would prefer it. But while we're here in a thread titled "unsubscribing", let's take just a moment to review this list's history. Literally. Take a look: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ Look at the right-hand column. That's the size of each month's conversation here. We used to measured list activity in number of posts per day. Over the last year it's more easily measured in number of days between posts. Take a scroll through the last time a month's archive was 1 MB: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2006-March/date.html Look at all the names there, names of friends and colleagues who have moved on. Some of moved on from this planet, like the venerable Brahmanathaswami. Most have just moved on to something else. They didn't just unsubscribe from this list. They unsubscribed from the platform. So let's please remain kind to one another, and continue to seek meaningful solutions for practical business needs on all sides. If that can be done here, we're already here. If it's better moved, we can move it. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com Andre Garzia wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite > impactful toevery developer here as it dictates how the move > forward, hardless a useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing >> debacle is boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority >> of us who look to this forum for meaningful and useful information. >> I'm going to unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has >> run it course. >> Have a good one! >> From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 19:50:29 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:50:29 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/2024 6:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Simpler than that: > > on mouseUp > put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime > put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset > -- delete last word of tDateTime > convert tDateTime to seconds > put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset > add tOffset to tDateTime > convert tDateTime to long date and long time > put tDateTime > end mouseUp (tOffset / 100)  isn't quite right as the time zone offset (i.e. something like -0400) is actually hhmm, so an offset like NewFoundLand -0330, if divided by 100 becomes 3.3 when it should be 3.5 since 30 minutes if half and hour. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 19:52:59 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:52:59 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <19A5AE38-0A98-4262-8DF2-855BD3956B19@iotecdigital.com> Yeah but I think I got the math backwards. -0400 means the GMT is 4 hours AHEAD not behind. It should be subtract tOffset from tDateTime. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 4:11 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks! You math to do the offset is much simpler. > > On 7/29/2024 6:34 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: >>> >>> Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: >>> >>> … >>>> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset >>> … >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Simpler than that: >>>> >>>> on mouseUp >>>> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >>>> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >>>> -- delete last word of tDateTime >>>> convert tDateTime to seconds >>>> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >>>> add tOffset to tDateTime >>>> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >>>> put tDateTime >>>> end mouseUp >>>> >>>> Bob S >>>> >>>> From mailkeliko01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 01:41:21 2024 From: mailkeliko01 at gmail.com (Riko Abadi) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 12:41:21 +0700 Subject: Clarification Needed: Coding vs. Drag-and-Drop in LiveCode Create Universal Message-ID: Hello Kevin, Does LiveCode Create Universal mean that we can no longer write code and have to rely solely on drag-and-drop like no-code platforms? I believe no-code platforms are a waste of time since they are ultimately built with code. From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Tue Jul 30 03:00:55 2024 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 02:00:55 -0500 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19102712458.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Similar to Bob's but includes the delimiters: -- create UTC timestamp: -- format: "2013-07-20T00:00:00Z" put the seconds into tTime convert tTime to dateitems subtract (char 1 to -3 of last word of the internet date) from item 4 of tTime convert tTime to dateitems set the numberformat to "00" put item 1 of tTime &"-"& (item 2 of tTime)+0 &"-"& (item 3 of tTime)+0 & "T" & (item 4 of tTime)+0 &":"& \ (item 5 of tTime)+0 &":"& (item 6 of tTime)+0 & "Z" into tTimestamp -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 29, 2024 4:11:37 PM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > Follow up question/request: > > put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 > Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset > > Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT > (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 > +0000)? > > It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle > carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. > > If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and > converting back? (I think this is the answer) > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Tue Jul 30 04:13:02 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 09:13:02 +0100 Subject: Clarification Needed: Coding vs. Drag-and-Drop in LiveCode Create Universal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Riko, This is an excellent question. While Create does include drag-drop no-code tools, it also includes the Script Editor. So you have a choice. Our goal is that you use the point and click actions for those things it does well and write scripts where required. There are two things that are really important here. Firstly, the Actions Editor (our name for our drag-drop tool) actually writes scripts using the LiveCode Script language you already know and love. So you can always go into the script editor afterwards and edit them. Secondly, you can insert scripts as a step within the actions flow. So we make it really easy to go back and forward. Our vision is to provide a no-code tool with all the productivity benefits and ease-of-learning that this brings for routine tasks. Yet without any of the limits inherent to most drag-drop coding systems. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 06:41, "use-livecode on behalf of Riko Abadi via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hello Kevin, Does LiveCode Create Universal mean that we can no longer write code and have to rely solely on drag-and-drop like no-code platforms? I believe no-code platforms are a waste of time since they are ultimately built with code. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Tue Jul 30 06:20:32 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 10:20:32 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question Message-ID: <26228F62-867E-4D60-87A9-89472855E195@uni-wh.de> Similar to Bob's and Jaque's but includes the delimiters: Additionally adds Minutes and +- offsets E.g. Nepal is 5 Hours 45 Minutes ahead of GMT/UTC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- create UTC timestamp: -- format: "2013-07-20T00:00:00Z" put the internet date into tTime put char 1 of the last word of tTime into tAddSubtract if tAddSubtract is "-" then put true into tAdd end if put char 2 to 3 of the last word of tTime into tHoursOff put char 4 to 5 of the last word of tTime into tMinutesOff convert tTime to dateItems if tAdd then add tHoursOff to item 4 of tTime add tMinutesOff to item 5 of tTime else subtract tHoursOff from item 4 of tTime subtract tMinutesOff from item 5 of tTime end if convert tTime to dateItems set the numberformat to "00" put item 1 of tTime &"-"& (item 2 of tTime)+0 &"-"& (item 3 of tTime)+0 & "T" & (item 4 of tTime)+0 &":"& \ (item 5 of tTime)+0 &":"& (item 6 of tTime)+0 & "Z" into tTimestamp put tTimeStamp ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kind regards Bernd From dvglasgow at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 09:14:57 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:14:57 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting Message-ID: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn From andre at andregarzia.com Tue Jul 30 13:24:58 2024 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 18:24:58 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: Heriberto, On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to voice too much in terms of business decisions. It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. -- https://www.andregarzia.com Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 30 15:05:16 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:05:16 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: We could make a compelling case for airing business and licensing details in public, or in private. For Livecode, as a company that is already poor on the spectrum of transparency and communication, and at times truth-telling. (though improving) I vote NO to taking the conversations private. If you are wondering what I mean ..... No public roadmap on what is going to get done or not going to get done any time soon. Lack of candor is all statements made, such as not addressing the fact that we have funded features you have not delivered (when telling us you spend more on the platform than you make.) The community as a whole has no clue if the script compiler will ever happen......... Those are 2 examples. Sooooooo ... I say having to make public statements as part of the new future of livecode might be a good thing. Why is anyone trying to decide what gets talked about here and what doesn't to begin with? Is it spam? no. Is it livecode related, yes. On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 1:26 PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Heriberto, > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > -- > https://www.andregarzia.com > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From thatkeith at mac.com Tue Jul 30 15:11:21 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 20:11:21 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has come if you're no longer subscribed? k From kevin at livecode.com Tue Jul 30 17:32:52 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 22:32:52 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Jul 30 18:10:57 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 00:10:57 +0200 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? Regards, Matthias > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dougr at telus.net Tue Jul 30 18:23:17 2024 From: dougr at telus.net (Douglas A. Ruisaard) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:23:17 -0700 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> Message-ID: <3e2701dae2cf$13e3ba10$3bab2e30$@telus.net> Old men get to be grumpy ... it's one of the few "benefits" of getting to my age, that and being selectively hard of hearing, seriously wondering why youngsters get tattoos on their faces and admiring beautiful women without them being offended. I actually *do* have this forum's incoming already filtered to a certain degree but really felt that the topic had run its course sufficiently to have the members "move on". I have, over the past few decades, greatly admired and benefitted from the sage advice, examples and knowledge that members of this group have selflessly donated to our collective skills and successes. But the licensing thread seemed to have become redundant, unproductive and (IMHO) having little relevance to the "normal" precise and valuable guidance and lessons I often have found amongst these discussions ... hence my response. It is a misunderstanding that I was criticizing the nature of the topic ... simply the duration, lack of direction and (to me) its eventual deficiency of relevance to what I believe to be the beneficial aspects of the "normal" technical topics presented and discussed. If anything, I felt that the topic content may have produced much more confusion and anxiety in many of the participants rather than aiding them in understanding what seems to be a fairly complex subject and highly specific to individual environments. I forgot to mention the acceptable advantage of being astonishingly selfish once you reach your golden years and beyond. As to when I will rejoin ... once I get bored with NOT hearing the wisdom of the members. Interesting that shortly after my diatribe, that topic seems to have dissipated. I continue to wish everyone success in their endeavors and will, no doubt, open the window on your knowledge in the future. Douglas Ruisaard -----Original Message----- From: Keith Martin Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 12:11 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Douglas A. Ruisaard Subject: Re: unsubscribing > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run its course. Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has come if you're no longer subscribed? k From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 31 12:11:36 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 17:11:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Message-ID: <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> There are three packages. Create Native is our desktop tool for building desktop/mobile/server. Create Cloud for building Web apps. That’s what Xavvi now is. And Universal is the combination the two. Native will deploy to HTML5 either via the standalone builder or our cloud (with one click) if you have a Universal license. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 23:10, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? Regards, Matthias > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode >: > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" > > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:01:41 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:01:41 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library Message-ID: Hi all. Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] put tLine +1 into tNewLine if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex else put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgNextIndexOfLine getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] put tLine -1 into tNewLine if tNewLine <1 then put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex else put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgPrevIndexOfLine You are welcome. :-) Bob S From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:22:26 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:22:26 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F0F9F63-DE07-4609-8849-11A7C0BBFA96@iotecdigital.com> Correction, dgLines is not a property of a datagrid. The dgHilitedLines is, but are only sequential when the data is first loaded. If resorted by clicking a column header, the dgHilitedLines will no longer be sequential. Bob S On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:29:02 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:29:02 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. Bob S > On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi all. > > Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. > > Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. > > And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. > > So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: > > getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] > put tLine +1 into tNewLine > > if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then > put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex > else > put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex > end if > > return tIndex > end dgNextIndexOfLine > > getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] > put tLine -1 into tNewLine > > if tNewLine <1 then > put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex > else > put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex > end if > > return tIndex > end dgPrevIndexOfLine > > You are welcome. :-) > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alekseyfomichev53 at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 14:29:08 2024 From: alekseyfomichev53 at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:29:08 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Schwoertzig, how are you?! Contact me on this website ! ср, 31 июл. 2024 г. в 16:00, : > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: unsubscribing (Andre Garzia) > 2. Re: unsubscribing (Tom Glod) > 3. Re: unsubscribing (Keith Martin) > 4. Re: Livecode Create hosting (Kevin Miller) > 5. Re: Livecode Create hosting (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) > 6. RE: unsubscribing (Douglas A. Ruisaard) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 18:24:58 +0100 > From: Andre Garzia > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: > < > CAF3jwTnO8B-xBO+bn8+dsOv98Sd-ACm_6NHBsstY1CE_b7QS9g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Heriberto, > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > -- > https://www.andregarzia.com > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:05:16 -0400 > From: Tom Glod > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: > PLMAP_Y46GexM30mF54+-A at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > We could make a compelling case for airing business and licensing details > in public, or in private. > For Livecode, as a company that is already poor on the spectrum of > transparency and communication, and at times truth-telling. > (though improving) > I vote NO to taking the conversations private. > > If you are wondering what I mean ..... > > No public roadmap on what is going to get done or not going to get done any > time soon. > Lack of candor is all statements made, such as not addressing the fact that > we have funded features you have not delivered (when telling us you spend > more on the platform than you make.) > The community as a whole has no clue if the script compiler will ever > happen......... > Those are 2 examples. > > Sooooooo ... I say having to make public statements as part of the new > future of livecode might be a good thing. > > Why is anyone trying to decide what gets talked about here and what > doesn't to begin with? > Is it spam? no. Is it livecode related, yes. > > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 1:26?PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Heriberto, > > > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping > away > > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the > short-lived > > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had > a > > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about > being > > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades > and > > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > > > -- > > https://www.andregarzia.com > > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 20:11:21 +0100 > From: Keith Martin > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291 at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I'm going to > > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > > Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to > archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel > things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has > come if you're no longer subscribed? > > k > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 22:32:52 +0100 > From: Kevin Miller > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Livecode Create hosting > Message-ID: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449 at livecode.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. > That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can > embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). > For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our > cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > ?On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, > but exactly what does ?hosting? mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? > Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, > or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn < > https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/>> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 00:10:57 +0200 > From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Livecode Create hosting > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Kevin, > > please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. > I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might > have missed something. > Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the > development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? > > Regards, > Matthias > > > > > > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>: > > > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our > cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or > you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted > by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in > our cloud. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > ?On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but > me, but exactly what does ?hosting? mean in this context? > > > > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? > Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, > or some other sort of thing? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > > > > > > LinkedIn < > https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/>> > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:23:17 -0700 > From: "Douglas A. Ruisaard" > To: "'Keith Martin'" , "'How to use LiveCode'" > > Subject: RE: unsubscribing > Message-ID: <3e2701dae2cf$13e3ba10$3bab2e30$@telus.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Old men get to be grumpy ... it's one of the few "benefits" of getting to > my > age, that and being selectively hard of hearing, seriously wondering why > youngsters get tattoos on their faces and admiring beautiful women without > them being offended. I actually *do* have this forum's incoming already > filtered to a certain degree but really felt that the topic had run its > course sufficiently to have the members "move on". I have, over the past > few decades, greatly admired and benefitted from the sage advice, examples > and knowledge that members of this group have selflessly donated to our > collective skills and successes. But the licensing thread seemed to have > become redundant, unproductive and (IMHO) having little relevance to the > "normal" precise and valuable guidance and lessons I often have found > amongst these discussions ... hence my response. > > It is a misunderstanding that I was criticizing the nature of the topic ... > simply the duration, lack of direction and (to me) its eventual deficiency > of relevance to what I believe to be the beneficial aspects of the "normal" > technical topics presented and discussed. If anything, I felt that the > topic content may have produced much more confusion and anxiety in many of > the participants rather than aiding them in understanding what seems to be > a > fairly complex subject and highly specific to individual environments. I > forgot to mention the acceptable advantage of being astonishingly selfish > once you reach your golden years and beyond. > > As to when I will rejoin ... once I get bored with NOT hearing the wisdom > of > the members. Interesting that shortly after my diatribe, that topic seems > to have dissipated. I continue to wish everyone success in their endeavors > and will, no doubt, open the window on your knowledge in the future. > Douglas Ruisaard > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Martin > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 12:11 PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Douglas A. Ruisaard > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > > > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode > wrote: > > > > I'm going to > > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run its course. > > Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to > archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel > things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has > come > if you're no longer subscribed? > > k > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 > ********************************************* > From jeff at siphonophore.com Wed Jul 31 14:54:13 2024 From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 14:54:13 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: <3D20A158-CB00-4959-901E-B72242BF4A1B@siphonophore.com> I posted about my more odd ball situation with live code. Kevin answered with some solutions for seats for exhibit machines which could be a solution, but unfortunately I doubt the royalty solution for educational content software would not fly with the clients. As I stated it’s all ok since I’m sort of sliding into retirement and this is just sort of a door closer of a door already swinging shut. But having worked with MetaCard/Livecode for 30+ years as my business and chatting with a few off list, I could not help stop thinking thru the issues and looking for solutions as well as just standing back and looking at the bigger picture some. Live code has been changing slowly for a long time from a do everything super HyperTalk to more of a main stream rapid application builder. This is following the trends in the industry and there’s and app for that culture in general. The evolution to the Create system and the new licensing structure just cement all that in place. I get it it’s the way LC must go to survive as a business. I’m sure the new systems would have the potential to keep doing my work, but I’m sure multimedia aspects that are central to my projects will not be super high priority for newer versions of Create. AI stuff I see as mainly getting in the way for me, but hopefully it can be turned off or pushed aside when needed to. New licensing and Create direction would definitely not be a revenue generator for me just a lot more costs and hassles and I would most likely end up heading out to a new platform which wouldn’t be a large investment with no increase in revenue. But it made me step back and look at my clients some more and think. One issue I had not thought about in all this kurfuffle is how would my clients react to the new LC outside of the licensing costs and the hit by the bus questions pop up. Being a one hand clapping with all the programming on our projects I always have to be ready for these questions from clients and have potential solutions ready. The smart client always ask these questions and I try to only work with smart clients if I can. One, they would ask ok with this is a subscription model now, what happens if LC jacks the price way up here next year or worse goes out of business. A rapid price rise would be tough as these projects once done or released are sort of set, no new budgets or funding to pay for a higher subscription is there with my clients. I could see Kevin and team coming up with a solution for those of us stuck in transition to get some lock ins, exceptions, and such. It also sounds like as long as things are kept local things would keep running in LC’s demise and it would then require the use of a different coding system for the next project, but as long as the current projects are up and running that’s ok as they usually just keep running on with little or no fixes needed. Ok, that hit by the bus question answered. The other big hit by the bus question that then came to mind was the one most often asked, what if I get hit by the bus. My solution to this has always been to have cultivated a few friends and colleagues who I know could easily do my work if paid for it decently and give that list to my clients. Dangerous some would say, but I’m careful with who I work with and trust my clients. I’m usually cheaper to the client due to the fact I do 3 or 4 roles on the projects and for them to hire someone just for coding and the others to do the rest it would get expensive and more management and potential issues and my education clients are in slim budgets, so I doubt they would try to use the list other than if I were hit by the bus (AFAIK none ever did anything with the lists). But now I’m realizing with the large turn in LC direction cemented in place there probably won’t be any odd balls out there in the future with the new business app world that I can use for this list in the future (they will most likely migrated elsewhere). This, I realized was a more important gotcha if I were continuing in my business. If the licensing issues could get solved this one would be a hard one to get around and end up forcing me off into a new system anyway. Just some knoodling I’ve been doing and thought I would throw it out for others odd balls to naw on or just ignore it. Also just wanted to thank this list for the many years of great information sharing and help with problems. I only had a few issues ever that I brought here or had solutions for others, but I learned tons from the information shared here, many times not stuff I needed at the moment, but later useful when I did! Folks here also kept this a great list to keep looking at over many, many years. Thanks. And a big thanks to Kevin and all the LC team, it’s been grand to keep on using HyperTalk to do more and more things that folks would say “you can’t do that with HyperTalk!”, but then you could show them you could… best wishes in the new course charted. So long ant thanks for all the fish! Jeff From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Jul 31 15:04:53 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 21:04:53 +0200 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> Message-ID: <72719F86-926E-4213-924A-71AD19CD6442@m-r-d.de> Kevin, Thank you very much for clarifying. I was not sure about HTML5 as deployment platform. Regards, Matthias > Am 31.07.2024 um 18:11 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > There are three packages. Create Native is our desktop tool for building desktop/mobile/server. Create Cloud for building Web apps. That’s what Xavvi now is. And Universal is the combination the two. Native will deploy to HTML5 either via the standalone builder or our cloud (with one click) if you have a Universal license. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 23:10, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Kevin, > > > please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. > I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. > Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? > > > Regards, > Matthias > > > > > > > > >> Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode >: >> >> Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" > > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >> Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? >> >> >> Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> David G >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> David Glasgow >> Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist >> Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University >> Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit >> Carlton Glasgow Partnership >> Director, Child & Family Training, York >> >> >> >> >> LinkedIn >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Wed Jul 31 15:20:57 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 15:20:57 -0400 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. On 7/31/2024 2:29 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi all. >> >> Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? Its not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. >> >> Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there wont be another line hilited until your code sets it. >> >> And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. >> >> So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: >> >> getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] >> put tLine +1 into tNewLine >> >> if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >> else >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >> end if >> >> return tIndex >> end dgNextIndexOfLine >> >> getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] >> put tLine -1 into tNewLine >> >> if tNewLine <1 then >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >> else >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >> end if >> >> return tIndex >> end dgPrevIndexOfLine >> >> You are welcome. :-) >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 31 15:34:45 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:34:45 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! I wonder how that got past moderation. Heather is extra-ordinarily busy at the moment though. :D On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:29, Jess via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Schwoertzig, how are you?! Contact me on this website > > .... > > ср, 31 июл. 2024 г. в 16:00, : > > From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 31 15:59:07 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 15:59:07 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for instance, as da From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 31 16:02:03 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 16:02:03 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for instance, as far as I understand, I can deploy for all platforms. But in my situation I only need MacOS and Windows. So I have the feeling that I will ask my clients to pay for stuff they don't need... Please correct me if I'm wrong. jbv From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 16:15:36 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:15:36 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Hmmm… I will look into that. Another way is to record the current index(s), set the dgData of the grid to it’s own data (resets the lines to the visible order) then restore the hilited index(s), get the hilted line, THEN get the next line. That seems too convoluted so I will look into using indexes. Bob S > On Jul 31, 2024, at 12:20 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" > You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. > > > On 7/31/2024 2:29 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi all. >>> >>> Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. >>> >>> Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. >>> >>> And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. >>> >>> So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: >>> >>> getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] >>> put tLine +1 into tNewLine >>> >>> if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >>> else >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >>> end if >>> >>> return tIndex >>> end dgNextIndexOfLine >>> >>> getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] >>> put tLine -1 into tNewLine >>> >>> if tNewLine <1 then >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >>> else >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >>> end if >>> >>> return tIndex >>> end dgPrevIndexOfLine >>> >>> You are welcome. :-) >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 16:34:41 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:34:41 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Not nearly as sexy, but it does what I need it to. getProp dgNextIndex [tIndex] put the dgIndexes of me into tIndexes put itemOffset(tIndex, tIndexes) into tItem if tItem = the the number of items of tIndexes then put item tItem of tIndexes into tIndex else put item tItem +1 of tIndexes into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgNextIndex getProp dgPrevIndex [tIndex] put the dgIndexes of me into tIndexes put itemOffset(tIndex, tIndexes) into tItem if tItem = 1 then put item tItem of tIndexes into tIndex else put item tItem -1 of tIndexes into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgPrevIndex > On Jul 31, 2024, at 12:20 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" > You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. > > From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 31 17:15:55 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 22:15:55 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> References: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <5F6D6CB5-DF21-476D-B0F9-186E3E6CFB67@pidigital.co.uk> That’s called “value for money”. You get the thing you want for the cost of what we were paying (approx) plus the potential for a heap more if they ever Do want or need it in the future. I think it’s pretty good. Especially for less than $40/mth. In context, I pay for Adobe creative cloud at £57/mth. Every month. But I pretty much only use After Effects, photoshop and occasionally Illustrator and Premiere Pro. Very very occasionally I use Dreamweaver and Acrobat Pro. But there are tonnes of other apps I am paying for that sit there that I have never used and never likely to. But I might one day. I also pay for plugin packs I pay on subscription. 90% of the plugins I have probably never used. But I have them for when I do. I have wondered if it might be good for LC to offer a one off lifetime payment for 9&10 when they finally go unsupported. Just a thought. We’ll have to wait and see. All the best Sean Cole > On 31 Jul 2024, at 21:02, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very > disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for > instance, as far as I understand, I can deploy for > all platforms. But in my situation I only need MacOS > and Windows. > So I have the feeling that I will ask my clients to > pay for stuff they don't need... > Please correct me if I'm wrong. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dochawk at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 20:51:50 2024 From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 17:51:50 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> References: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Heriberto honked, > In the early 90s, I detected a bug when installing Microsoft Office alongside Corel Draw on Windows 95. I called Microsoft, and two weeks later, I received a diskette with a patch that resolved the issue. Somewhere in my files I have a (typed!) letter from Microsoft from 1989 or 1990 responding to my suggestion as a software developer suggesting that BASIC be attached to MS Word. The gist was that it was an intriguing idea, but they had no plans for such a thing. At the time, I was using hypercard to pre-process information to a feeder file for word’s mail merge for part of my filing, and stepping through cards to print the rest kevin kibitzed, > Don't forget we have videos that explain both the rationale and the model. https://future.livecode.com You say the as if expecting someone to view a video to get information wasn’t an act of Evil . . . :) As for myself, I certainly won’t be going to the new platform; it has nothing useful for me, and I abhor the notion of a computer or “AI” interfering with code (in fact, this should be very tightly regulated). My project never ended up at a full commercial release. It’s essentially done, but I would have had to self-implement two of the still-missing features (encrypted postgres session and exporting a pdf from the pdf widget [no, putting it back at 72dpi does not count!]). I pretty much stopped cold when the pdf widget failed to be printable, making only the changes I needed for my own practice, and now I’m retired with absolutely no interest on starting a new business or having around to support software. I could reimplement my engine in less than a week in just about anything that has decent string support (HyperTalk, BASIC, Fortran, Python, whatever). Another day or two for a translator to export the internal functions on how data relates and is calculated. And then whatever method for superimposing my own text on pdf, and converting to PDF/A. The only interest I have in my supposedly lifetime “Indy” license, which I bought because livecode seemed to be in a crunch and needed it, is future toy project for myself. And I just can’t see paying hundreds of dollars a year for something I probably won’t even use most years! The only things I use that weren’t in HyperCard 2.0 or SuperCard 1.5 (in which I implemented this years ago) are groups, behaviors and chained behaviors, postures, and the in-memory SQLite. I have absolutely no use for any web connection, servers (other than postgres), or AI. From dick.kriesel at mail.com Tue Jul 2 04:31:13 2024 From: dick.kriesel at mail.com (Dick Kriesel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 01:31:13 -0700 Subject: Slow stack problem In-Reply-To: <548217AD-2894-465E-B903-8DC47FAA4C88@optusnet.com.au> References: <548217AD-2894-465E-B903-8DC47FAA4C88@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <07280E11-C947-41AF-9E81-0668454757C1@mail.com> > On Jun 28, 2024, at 3:15 AM, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > I have a solution or at least a workaround Hi, Neville. You may find a worthwhile improvement in speed if you avoid referring to the Unicode lines by their line numbers (as in "line k of fff"). Here's a way: function findLineNumbersInUnicode pLinesToFind, tLinesToSearch -- returns a comma-delimited list of the line numbers of lines that contain any of the lines to find local tRegExp, tLineNumber, tLineNumbers repeat for each line tLineToFind in pLinesToFind put "(^[0-9-]*\t" & tLineToFind & ")" into tRegExp put 0 into tLineNumber repeat for each line tLine in tLinesToSearch add 1 to tLineNumber if matchChunk(tLine, tRegExp) then put tLineNumber & comma after tLineNumbers end if end repeat end repeat return char 1 to -2 of tLineNumbers end findLineNumbersInUnicode If you try the idea, please share your test results. — Dick Kriesel From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Tue Jul 2 21:05:54 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 11:05:54 +1000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank Dick I will try your idea - it may need a small mod, see below. I will probably post some timings later if people are still interested in this thread. Mark’s method of converting to an array of lines to gain random access to the lines has given me at least a 50-fold increase in speed in many of my handlers (perhaps more - my analysis may have been somewhat flawed but I still have the gut feeling LineOffset -and finding line k of text- is at 50 to 100 times slower on unicode than on ascii). So this is the method I have implemented; re-factoring took a few hours but was well worth it] However there is a drawback in using arrays rather than the original text - I often need to search the text, to find the first (or next) line containing a string, and there is no built-in arrayOffset. Binary (logarithmic) search is an extremely fast search algorithm for searching the elements of an array IF the array is pre-sorted appropriately for the search item beforehand, but that doesn’t suit my use-case at all. Sorting the keys of an array according to the contents of elements is another story (combine by return, sort, split by return? Split is OK as a once-off , but it gets expensive if it needs to be done multiple times - splitting 1700 lines of sample text took about 0.1 seconds). There is however filter elements of with into tLines; put line 1 of the keys of tLines into tFoundLine And that is still very fast on unicode, even though it will find all the lines matching str, not just the first. This can be an advantage or not. [Note does need to be set up to match a whole line] I have a LineSearch algorithm alternative for lineOffset which searches for the first occurrence of a targetString in unicode text which avoids finding line endings and which is faster than using the filter method on arrays (particularly if the overhead of converting the text to an array with split by return is added). It uses the fact that matchChunk is still exceedingly fast on unicode (did someone complain that matchChunk appeared to be slow on unicode?? Who was that foolish boy? Wasn’t me Sir!). Slight drawback is you have to escape all the special regex characters in the target string before using the regex "(?m)(?i)^(.*?" & pTargetStr & ".*?)$” but replace is very fast, so this is messy but not a big deal. Big drawback is it gives the text of the line but not the line number, and so the algorithm is not adaptable to skipping lines; your version may answer that but looks like it needs the repeat loop which looks expensive. Hmm, wait, aren’t you looping on “line tLine in tLinesToSearch” which implicitly involves finding the line delimiters in the unicode text, which is back to the original problem? Neville > On 3 Jul 2024, at 2:00 am, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Slow stack problem (Dick Kriesel) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 01:31:13 -0700 > From: Dick Kriesel > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Slow stack problem > Message-ID: <07280E11-C947-41AF-9E81-0668454757C1 at mail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > >> On Jun 28, 2024, at 3:15?AM, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I have a solution or at least a workaround > > Hi, Neville. You may find a worthwhile improvement in speed if you avoid referring to the Unicode lines by their line numbers (as in "line k of fff"). > > Here's a way: > > function findLineNumbersInUnicode pLinesToFind, tLinesToSearch -- returns a comma-delimited list of the line numbers of lines that contain any of the lines to find > > local tRegExp, tLineNumber, tLineNumbers > > repeat for each line tLineToFind in pLinesToFind > > put "(^[0-9-]*\t" & tLineToFind & ")" into tRegExp > > put 0 into tLineNumber > > repeat for each line tLine in tLinesToSearch > > add 1 to tLineNumber > > if matchChunk(tLine, tRegExp) then > > put tLineNumber & comma after tLineNumbers > > end if > > end repeat > > end repeat > > return char 1 to -2 of tLineNumbers > > end findLineNumbersInUnicode > > > > If you try the idea, please share your test results. > > ? Dick Kriesel > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 > ******************************************** Neville Smythe neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au 0414517719 From curry at pair.com Wed Jul 3 08:45:23 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 08:45:23 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! Mark Smith: > My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, Resilience > is my superpower. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. Me: > What doesnt kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Heres hoping for a > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 3 13:51:06 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 13:51:06 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HAPPY TREASON DAY! On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... > Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! > > I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > > Mark Smith: > > > My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > > your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience > > is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. > > Me: > > > What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a > > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 3 18:02:05 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 22:02:05 +0000 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Merry FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY DAY! LOL! Bob S > On Jul 3, 2024, at 10:51 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: > > HAPPY TREASON DAY! > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... >> Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! >> >> I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! >> >> Mark Smith: >> >>> My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing >>> your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience >>> is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. >> >> Me: >> >>> What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. >>> Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a >>> great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Curry Kenworthy >> >> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development >> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" >> https://livecodeconsulting.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 4 01:05:12 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 01:05:12 -0400 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> References: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <65b15d21-deb9-471c-a23a-7504ade0d82f@pair.com> Again - I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > What doesnt kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > Life requires that faith and perseverance. Heres hoping for a > great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From david.bovill at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 05:43:33 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 10:43:33 +0100 Subject: web/Happy 4th In-Reply-To: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> References: <3A23C869-6030-400E-9015-72AEEAC1278C@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: The results aren't out yet. Heading to the polls.... On Wed, 3 Jul 2024 at 23:03, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Merry FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY DAY! LOL! > > Bob S > > > > On Jul 3, 2024, at 10:51 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > HAPPY TREASON DAY! > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 8:46 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I've been wanting to say, with a slight delay... > >> Thanks for your comment - It's a great year for encouragement! > >> > >> I hope everyone has a great week, and 4th! > >> > >> Mark Smith: > >> > >>> My goodness Curry, how beautifully said. Thanks for sharing > >>> your thoughts. It reminds me of a quote I saw recently, “Resilience > >>> is my superpower”. Wishing everyone all the best in 2024. > >> > >> Me: > >> > >>> What doesn’t kill us ... makes us awesome and mighty. > >>> Life requires that faith and perseverance. Here’s hoping for a > >>> great 2024 for all, whatever it holds, and an even BETTER 2025! > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> Curry Kenworthy > >> > >> Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > >> "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > >> https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From prothero at ucsb.edu Sat Jul 6 20:50:34 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 Subject: my deployment question Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606@ucsb.edu> The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 13:38:07 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 13:38:07 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows Message-ID: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! Peter Bogdanoff From paul at researchware.com Sun Jul 7 13:58:11 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 13:58:11 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> Message-ID: <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows.  On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. > > This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. > > I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: > > For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* > For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** > > https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ > > Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? > > My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. > > Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! > > Peter Bogdanoff > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 19:56:31 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 19:56:31 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> Message-ID: <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> Thanks, Paul. So, Windows 11 shouldn’t have this issue? > On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases > > Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. > > > On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >> >> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >> >> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >> >> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >> >> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >> >> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >> >> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >> >> I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >> >> Peter Bogdanoff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Sun Jul 7 20:10:47 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> Message-ID: <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks, Paul. > > So, Windows 11 shouldnt have this issue? > > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >> >> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >> >> >> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>> >>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>> >>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>> >>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>> >>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>> >>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>> >>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>> >>> Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>> >>> Peter Bogdanoff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Sun Jul 7 20:49:22 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 20:49:22 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> Message-ID: <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> OK thanks. Many of our users are college undergrads, some of which appear to have never installed an application on their own computer. Now I have to get them to do a second installation as well. By any chance, can I get my LC application to initiate the LAV filters install? > On Jul 7, 2024, at 8:10 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. > > > On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> Thanks, Paul. >> >> So, Windows 11 shouldn’t have this issue? >> >> >> >>> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >>> >>> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >>> >>> >>> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Hi, the browser widget doesn’t support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>>> >>>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application I’ve been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecode—but this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>>> >>>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>>> >>>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>>> >>>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>>> >>>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>>> >>>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>>> >>>> I’m happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>>> >>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Mon Jul 8 04:08:08 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 04:08:08 -0400 Subject: Problem with hierarchical menu Message-ID: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have a pulldown menu button with a hierarchical menu on 4 levels. Level 1 features 35 options, and each option can have submenus on 1, 2 or 3 sub-levels. On Mac everything works fine : users can navigate through all options and sub-options with the mouse down like in any menu. But on Windows 10 & 11, at times when the cursor moves back from level 3 to 2, or 2 to 1 for instance, the whole menu gets stalled, and users need to release the mouse and pulldown the menu again. Any idea of what can cause this problem and what I should check ? Thank you in advance. jbv From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 8 07:47:23 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 07:47:23 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> References: <383B5ACB-4004-4006-A8DE-0F7BA072568E@me.com> <40f37bc7-f0f7-4a3f-92ec-9579d5a47ae8@researchware.com> <57E5A56E-675F-41CB-8A16-5F03EF356458@me.com> <64511232-28e5-4e8a-976e-cdaffab72681@researchware.com> <81D90A13-DBFB-4007-A7E0-6145D0863FE6@me.com> Message-ID: <69c46f0c-9903-4402-a8cc-69cc019d1c06@researchware.com> There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it as a bnfile to the install location. I don't know whether there are any Livecode lessons on the web site on how to do this or not or whether someone else who has done this may have code or tips to share. First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. Livecode 10, before release, is supposed to get updated to use the Windows Media Foundation (and it's wide range of current codec for various media formats). This change (DirectShow to MMF) is not in the current (dp8) version. So a media coded pack (like LAV Filters) for DirectShow is your only option under there is a version of LC 10 that supports MMF. If you set the way back machine, if you wanted to do media on Windows under old versions of Livecode (aka Revolution), you had to install Quicktime for Windows. On 7/7/2024 8:49 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > OK thanks. > > Many of our users are college undergrads, some of which appear to have never installed an application on their own computer. Now I have to get them to do a second installation as well. > > By any chance, can I get my LC application to initiate the LAV filters install? > > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 8:10 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Windows 11 will have the issue. Livecode on Windows 10 or 11 uses DirectShow. Try the LAV Filters to get the formats you want. .mp4 is fine, I am not sure about .mp5 support. See the LAV Filters read me and documentation. >> >> >> On 7/7/2024 7:56 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> Thanks, Paul. >>> >>> So, Windows 11 shouldnt have this issue? >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 7, 2024, at 1:58 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Livecode on Windows (9.x.x and 10.x.x) still uses DirectShow for the video (vs the Microsoft Media Foundation (MMF), the current standard. DirectShow was always limited in the number of codec for various audio and video formats it supported natively. I stringly recommend for macOS Windows parity on video formats to install the free library of additional DirectShow supported codec that are a part of the LAV Filters package. See https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/releases >>>> >>>> Just install the current version of LAV Filters and restart and you get a whole set of additional audio and video formats supported for Livecode for Windows. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/7/2024 1:38 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> Hi, the browser widget doesnt support .mp4 (or .mp5, both part of the HTML5 standard) in Windows. >>>>> >>>>> This is disappointing, especially as LC 10 becomes web based. In the music application Ive been developing, we are now going into new, transformational frontiers in education with web-based video (such as YouTube) interacting with normal Livecodebut this works on macOS ONLY. I tested YouTube videos in the widget on Windows 10, and the YT player reports that the videos are unsupported. >>>>> >>>>> I understand that there is licensing involved. MPEG LA, now VIA Licensing Alliance, has a fee structure. For hardware decoders, for example: >>>>> >>>>> For the first 1 to 50,000 decoders No Royalty* >>>>> For decoders 50,001 and more $ 0.25** >>>>> >>>>> https://www.via-la.com/licensing-2/mpeg-4-visual/mpeg-4-visual-license-fees/ >>>>> >>>>> Is this an obstacle for LiveCode as software, and dependent on the underlying hardware? >>>>> >>>>> My understanding from past LC forum posts is, to allow the widget to play the videos a flag is turned on and the widget recompiled. >>>>> >>>>> Im happy to pay for the licensing myself if I got to 50K customers! >>>>> >>>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From raymondjbennett at icloud.com Mon Jul 8 09:00:43 2024 From: raymondjbennett at icloud.com (Raymond Bennett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 09:00:43 -0400 Subject: my deployment question (William Prothero) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - I don't have time to collect the details at the moment, but here's what I've found: I found the necessary info for deploying to the devices themselves (iPhone, iPad) for test in the Apple documentation. The key - as best I recall - has to do with setting up the provisioning profile on the device. Doing that took me through all of the necessary steps to get it working in concert with LiveCode. Caveat - all of my experience is deploying from a Mac to those devices. Good luck. > On Jul 7, 2024, at 12:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. my deployment question (William Prothero) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 > From: William Prothero > To: JJS use-livecode > Subject: my deployment question > Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606 at ucsb.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. > Best, > Bill > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 4 > ******************************************** From prothero at ucsb.edu Mon Jul 8 11:25:26 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 08:25:26 -0700 Subject: my deployment question (William Prothero) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks.. For some reason, xcode 15.0 didn't install correctly over older versions and I'm investigating why. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 8, 2024, at 6:02 AM, Raymond Bennett via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi William - I don't have time to collect the details at the moment, but here's what I've found: > > I found the necessary info for deploying to the devices themselves (iPhone, iPad) for test in the Apple documentation. The key - as best I recall - has to do with setting up the provisioning profile on the device. Doing that took me through all of the necessary steps to get it working in concert with LiveCode. > > Caveat - all of my experience is deploying from a Mac to those devices. > > Good luck. > > >> On Jul 7, 2024, at 12:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." >> >> >> you can find the archives for this list at: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ >> >> and search them using this link: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. my deployment question (William Prothero) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 17:50:34 -0700 >> From: William Prothero >> To: JJS use-livecode >> Subject: my deployment question >> Message-ID: <63CD128A-95CF-45C4-8491-C313D0AB6606 at ucsb.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> The livecode docs. when discussing testing on ios, says nothing about certificates, etc. I wonder if I'm doing something really basic wrong by entering my developer id, etc. Will the test connected to my iphone run without certificates? If so, it would be much easier to build apps for my own use. Of course, in the docs there is no mention of configuring the iphone to accept developers' apps for testing. Hmmm...Maybe things have changed from last year. >> Best, >> Bill >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 4 >> ******************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 8 13:28:12 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2024 17:28:12 +0000 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows Message-ID: Paul Dupuis wrote: > There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library > or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and > have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file > ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and > if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it > as a bnfile to the install location. ... > First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see > if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. LAV Filters appear to be distributed under GPL v2: https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/blob/master/COPYING This invites an interesting exploration of the boundaries of GPL rights/responsibilities inheritance: does distributing GPL components within an app require the app distributing them to also be GPL? I've seen many cases the other way around, FOSS projects like Ubuntu where some users can benefit from prioprietary packages like NVidia device drivers. Ubuntu and others seem content to have resolved the issue by not including components with incompatible licenses in their distributions, instead providing links the user may choose to follow to install them. But the case in this thread is the inverse, a proprietary system with embedded distribution of Free and Open Source components. I haven't seen this before, so I did a quick search to see how others have handled it. Here are a few of those discussions: "Is it legal to use GPL code in a proprietary, closed-source program by putting it in a separate, standalone program?" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/7078/is-it-legal-to-use-gpl-code-in-a-proprietary-closed-source-program-by-putting-i "Distributing a proprietary application together with GPL software " https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/211250/distributing-a-proprietary-application-together-with-gpl-software "Can I use GPL software in a commercial application" https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/47032/can-i-use-gpl-software-in-a-commercial-application "Can I use GPL, LGPL, MPL licensed packages with my application and make it closed source?" https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/125606/can-i-use-gpl-lgpl-mpl-licensed-packages-with-my-application-and-make-it-close "Proprietary software using GPL modules" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1459/proprietary-software-using-gpl-modules "Can I use GPL libraries in a closed source project if only the output is distributed?" https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/2338/can-i-use-gpl-libraries-in-a-closed-source-project-if-only-the-output-is-distrib Spoiler: no one in those discussions has a definitive answer, but there is a general trend toward USING GPL components being viewed as okay but drawing the line at DISTRIBUTING those GPL components within a proprietary app. And given both the rarity and the subtlety of details in such circumstancs, even the GPL FAQ more or less punts on this question: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#ManyDifferentLicenses Of course I'm not an attorney, and even if I were I'm not contracted as your attorney, so nothing I write can be construed as legal advice. But as someone who has a personal hobby of reading IP case law, and has contractual requirements in most of my professional work to demonstrate a reasonable good-faith effort to help my clients avoid potential risks with IP licensing, I tend to err on the side of "When in doubt, leave it out." In cases where the best way to handle someone else's work is unclear, I often find it most useful to get clarification from the author of the work. As the copyright holder, they would be in a position to grant, or deny, specific use cases. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 8 13:43:53 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:43:53 -0400 Subject: .mp4 support in browser widget--Windows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As customers once had to download and install Quicktime for Windows to use a wide variety of media in Revolution/Livecode Standalones under Windows (XP, 7, 8.x, 10, 11), when QT for Win became obsolete, we just switched to directing customers to download and install LAV Filters instead. They do this as a separate install, done by the end user. So far, this has not seemed to be an issue or inhibited adoption. It also does not run afoul of any licensing issues with embedding LAV Filters in a LC standalone. Regardless, if you want media file parity with macOS on Windows in Livecode and do not want to wait for whatever dp version of LC 10 might have MMF in it, then you need to add a codec pack for DirectShow. There are other options for additional DirectShow codecs to LAV Filters. I can't recall any of them - just that we reviewed a bunch, most of which were commercial and required licensing. LAV Filters was reliable, functional, easy to install, and free. I'm not endorsing it for your application or anyone else's, just noting what worked for us. On 7/8/2024 1:28 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > Paul Dupuis wrote: > >> There ARE methods to compress and store a 3rd party library >> or application as a property in a Livecode standalone and >> have the standalone on start up check (if there is a file >> ... or if there is a folder ...) for the app's presence and >> if not present, install it by uncompressing and writing it >> as a bnfile to the install location. > ... >> First, you may want to manually install LAV Filters and see >> if it has the codecs for the media formats you want. > > LAV Filters appear to be distributed under GPL v2: > https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/blob/master/COPYING > > This invites an interesting exploration of the boundaries of GPL rights/responsibilities inheritance: does distributing GPL components within an app require the app distributing them to also be GPL? > > > I've seen many cases the other way around, FOSS projects like Ubuntu where some users can benefit from prioprietary packages like NVidia device drivers. Ubuntu and others seem content to have resolved the issue by not including components with incompatible licenses in their distributions, instead providing links the user may choose to follow to install them. > > But the case in this thread is the inverse, a proprietary system with embedded distribution of Free and Open Source components. I haven't seen this before, so I did a quick search to see how others have handled it. Here are a few of those discussions: > > "Is it legal to use GPL code in a proprietary, closed-source program by putting it in a separate, standalone program?" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/7078/is-it-legal-to-use-gpl-code-in-a-proprietary-closed-source-program-by-putting-i > > "Distributing a proprietary application together with GPL software" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/211250/distributing-a-proprietary-application-together-with-gpl-software > > "Can I use GPL software in a commercial application" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/47032/can-i-use-gpl-software-in-a-commercial-application > > "Can I use GPL, LGPL, MPL licensed packages with my application and make it closed source?" > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/125606/can-i-use-gpl-lgpl-mpl-licensed-packages-with-my-application-and-make-it-close > > "Proprietary software using GPL modules" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1459/proprietary-software-using-gpl-modules > > "Can I use GPL libraries in a closed source project if only the output is distributed?" > https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/2338/can-i-use-gpl-libraries-in-a-closed-source-project-if-only-the-output-is-distrib > > > Spoiler: no one in those discussions has a definitive answer, but there is a general trend toward USING GPL components being viewed as okay but drawing the line at DISTRIBUTING those GPL components within a proprietary app. > > And given both the rarity and the subtlety of details in such circumstancs, even the GPL FAQ more or less punts on this question: > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#ManyDifferentLicenses > > > Of course I'm not an attorney, and even if I were I'm not contracted as your attorney, so nothing I write can be construed as legal advice. > > But as someone who has a personal hobby of reading IP case law, and has contractual requirements in most of my professional work to demonstrate a reasonable good-faith effort to help my clients avoid potential risks with IP licensing, I tend to err on the side of "When in doubt, leave it out." > > In cases where the best way to handle someone else's work is unclear, I often find it most useful to get clarification from the author of the work. As the copyright holder, they would be in a position to grant, or deny, specific use cases. > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dan at clearvisiontech.com Tue Jul 9 13:13:15 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:13:15 +0000 Subject: Google Play Billing Library Version In-Reply-To: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> References: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Greetings! I have an app in the Google Play Store, and I recently got a message from Google Play that says my app is not using the correct Billing Library and I need to update my app to include Billing Library version 6 or newer. I built the app with LC 10 (dp-6). Is there a version of LC that is compatible with requirement? Or, how do I tell which versions of LC include which component versions? -Dan From merakosp at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 14:20:27 2024 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 21:20:27 +0300 Subject: Google Play Billing Library Version In-Reply-To: References: <310ef86a01acb3a63008e93e10d529b6@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Hello Dan, The current most recent versions of livecode use Google's billing library v5.x. Support for v6 of the library will be added in the next release, along with support for building against API 34. Both of them are new requirements for app submission to the Google Play Store, and the deadline is the 31st of August. So you should expect the next version of LiveCode before then ;) Kind Regards, Panos On Tue, 9 Jul 2024, 20:14 Dan Friedman via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Greetings! I have an app in the Google Play Store, and I recently got a > message from Google Play that says my app is not using the correct Billing > Library and I need to update my app to include Billing Library version 6 or > newer. I built the app with LC 10 (dp-6). Is there a version of LC that > is compatible with requirement? Or, how do I tell which versions of LC > include which component versions? > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 12 21:05:31 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2024 21:05:31 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 Message-ID: Heyall, I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 Methodology is explained in github page. It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the generation. Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. If anyone wants to follow the project, Or help out in testing and correcting. websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the handlers. The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons of time already. It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. I think its a good starting point. Testing will start soon enough. I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, there is some kind of hope. My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode Enjoy. Tom . From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 13 12:20:38 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:20:38 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: cool On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Heyall, > > I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. > So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 > > Methodology is explained in github page. > It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the > generation. > Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. > > Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. > But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. > If anyone wants to follow the project, > Or help out in testing and correcting. > > websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the handlers. > The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons of > time already. > It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. > I think its a good starting point. > > Testing will start soon enough. > I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, > there is some kind of hope. > My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example > streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. > > https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode > > Enjoy. > > Tom > . > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From panos.merakos at livecode.com Mon Jul 15 12:19:03 2024 From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 19:19:03 +0300 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 Message-ID: Dear list members, We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1 comes with 11 bugfixes and performance improvements, including support for building against API 34 on Android, and a new version of Google's in-app billing library used for in-app purchase. Both of these changes are required for new app submissions to the Google Play Store after the 31st of August 2024. Moreover, The CEF browser version has been updated on Windows. You can find more details on the bug fixes and improvements of this new release here: https://livecode.com/livecode-9-6-13-rc-1-google-play-store-and-cef-updates/ You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get it via the automatic updater. Enjoy! Kind regards The LiveCode Team -- From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 15 15:18:11 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 19:18:11 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 Message-ID: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Panos wrote: > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. ... > You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get > it via the automatic updater. Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Mon Jul 15 16:31:27 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 22:31:27 +0200 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> I found the link here https://livecode.com/account/products/livecode and then in the dropdown menu in the second section where the RC builds are listed. See a screenshot here https://livecode.dermattes.de/images/9_6_13_rc1.jpg Regards, Matthias > Am 15.07.2024 um 21:18 schrieb Richard Gaskin via use-livecode : > > Panos wrote: > >> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > ... >> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >> it via the automatic updater. > > Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. > > I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 16:48:40 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 20:48:40 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> <45848618-EF11-4E8A-BD07-EE9ABC001CAE@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <6AB502CB-92CB-47EC-986E-FB663A8CB23E@iotecdigital.com> You can also get it from the Check For Updates menu option of the Help menu in LC. Bob S > On Jul 15, 2024, at 1:31 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > I found the link here > https://livecode.com/account/products/livecode > > and then in the dropdown menu in the second section where the RC builds are listed. > > See a screenshot here > https://livecode.dermattes.de/images/9_6_13_rc1.jpg > > Regards, > Matthias > > > >> Am 15.07.2024 um 21:18 schrieb Richard Gaskin via use-livecode : >> >> Panos wrote: >> >>> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. >> ... >>> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >>> it via the automatic updater. >> >> Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. >> >> I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? >> >> -- >> Richard Gaskin >> FourthWorld.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 18:47:47 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 22:47:47 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function Message-ID: I got ahold of a function someone wrote years ago called fwGestalt(). It looks to provide information about the current application it belongs to in a report. However it is calling a function called Bytes2Size() which apparently converts hard drive space from bytes to actual free space. Does anyone have the byte2Size() function? Bob S From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 15 19:07:49 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:07:49 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function Message-ID: Bob Sneidar wrote: > I got ahold of a function someone wrote years ago called fwGestalt(). It looks to > provide information about the current application it belongs to in a report. > However it is calling a function called Bytes2Size() which apparently converts > hard drive space from bytes to actual free space. Does anyone have the byte2Size() > function? That was me (I use the "fw" prefix to distinguish "Fourth World" library stuff). Here ya' go: function Bytes2Size n set the numberformat to "0.#" if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n else put n / 1024 into n if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n else put n / 1024 &" MB" into n end if end if return n end Bytes2Size Things have changed since I wrote that. Might be good to update all the way up to TB. Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 19:24:12 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:24:12 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Thanks Richard. Bob S On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: function Bytes2Size n set the numberformat to "0.#" if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n else put n / 1024 into n if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n else put n / 1024 &" MB" into n end if end if return n end Bytes2Size From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 15 19:26:28 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:26:28 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <4F299FEC-527C-40A5-8805-1F83FCFA4A26@iotecdigital.com> Spell Correction: Avilable disk space: 454737.3 MB Bob S > On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:24 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > Thanks Richard. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: >> >> function Bytes2Size n >> set the numberformat to "0.#" >> if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n >> else >> put n / 1024 into n >> if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n >> else >> put n / 1024 &" MB" into n >> end if >> end if >> return n >> end Bytes2Size > > From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 15 21:01:32 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 21:01:32 -0400 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: With due credit to Richard for the original, you might want to update it for today's disk sizes, This adds GB and TB function Bytes2Size n   set the numberformat to "0.#"   if n < 1024 then     put n &" bytes" into n   else     put n / 1024 into n     if n < 1024 then       put n &" KB" into n     else       put n / 1024 into n       if n < 1024 then         put n &" MB" into n       else         put n / 1024 into n         if n < 1024 then           put n &" GB" into n         else           put n / 1024 &" TB" into n         end if       end if     end if   end if   return n end Bytes2Size On 7/15/2024 7:24 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks Richard. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > > function Bytes2Size n > set the numberformat to "0.#" > if n < 1024 then put n &" bytes" into n > else > put n / 1024 into n > if n < 1024 then put n &" k" into n > else > put n / 1024 &" MB" into n > end if > end if > return n > end Bytes2Size > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Tue Jul 16 09:48:01 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 14:48:01 +0100 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> References: <8cd750f9bf3129f6e537d19f909730e2c6959299@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <237D13B0-E938-42A2-85F4-2180D8F00F97@livecode.com> https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4072/l/1123259-how-do-i-download-a-test-release Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 15 Jul 2024, at 20:18, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: > > Panos wrote: > >> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > ... >> You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get >> it via the automatic updater. > > Thank you for the release. The Windows pasting issue is especially noteworthy, much appreciated. > > I don't see 9.6.13 RC1 in my account or on the Downloads page. Will it appear in those soon, or is the in-app updater the only method now? > > -- > Richard Gaskin > FourthWorld.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Tue Jul 16 11:02:06 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:02:06 +0000 Subject: fwGestalt() function In-Reply-To: References: <0761DBB5-7523-49D0-A10E-33B62659FA88@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <98E2DD4A-3256-41AC-ACB7-72AD11DDE6CC@iotecdigital.com> Wonderful, thanks all. Bob S On Jul 15, 2024, at 6:01 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: With due credit to Richard for the original, you might want to update it for today's disk sizes, This adds GB and TB From dan at clearvisiontech.com Tue Jul 16 11:06:30 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 15:06:30 +0000 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: // We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. This is certainly great news! Is there a parallel version for LC 10 coming? I have a number of projects that I have been using 10.0.0 (dp-8). Is LC 10 being abandoned? If so (or even if not), it feels like 9.6.X seems to be the LC’s preferred version? Can I take a project built in 10 and move it to 9 without worry? What’s in 10 that’s not in 9?? Thanks in advance, Dan From heather at livecode.com Tue Jul 16 11:17:35 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 16:17:35 +0100 Subject: [ ANN ] Release 9.6.13 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA4EA51-DD70-4137-A784-DF83C407E090@livecode.com> The equivalent 10 test release is coming shortly. Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 16 Jul 2024, at 16:06, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote: > > // We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1. > > This is certainly great news! Is there a parallel version for LC 10 coming? I have a number of projects that I have been using 10.0.0 (dp-8). Is LC 10 being abandoned? If so (or even if not), it feels like 9.6.X seems to be the LC’s preferred version? Can I take a project built in 10 and move it to 9 without worry? What’s in 10 that’s not in 9?? > > Thanks in advance, > Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Tue Jul 16 12:04:26 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 17:04:26 +0100 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. Message-ID: I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) Help please. Thanks Alex. From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Jul 16 12:31:17 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:31:17 +0200 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> Alex, log into your Livecode account. Then on the left side select Products and then Thirdparty. There you should find a download link to the current version. Open it in LC and press Install and it will override/update your files. Regards, Matthias Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 16.07.2024 um 18:05 schrieb Alex Tweedly via use-livecode : > >  > I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. > > But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) > > Help please. > > Thanks > > Alex. > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Tue Jul 16 14:22:36 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:22:36 +0100 Subject: How do you update the summer megabundle. In-Reply-To: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> References: <21839CCB-C342-4DED-BCC4-5F3705A4A30A@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Thank you. Was easy, and has indeed fixed my reported problem. Alex Sent from my iPhone > On 16 Jul 2024, at 17:32, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Alex, > > log into your Livecode account. Then on the left side select Products and then Thirdparty. There you should find a download link to the current version. > Open it in LC and press Install and it will override/update your files. > > Regards, > Matthias > > Von meinem iPad gesendet > >> Am 16.07.2024 um 18:05 schrieb Alex Tweedly via use-livecode : >> >>  >> I opened a bug report on the PolyList (or Polygrid), and it seems likely it has already been fixed in the latest version of the widget. >> >> But I can't remember how to upgrade my bundle (and can't seem to find the instructions ...) >> >> Help please. >> >> Thanks >> >> Alex. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Tue Jul 16 15:20:49 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 19:20:49 +0000 Subject: [ANN] A new version of TinyDictionary Message-ID: A new version of TinyDictionary has been uploaded to Livecodeshare https://livecodeshare.runrev.com/stack/825/TinyDictionary or download it from within the IDE from "Sample Stacks" Kind regards Bernd From cszasz at mac.com Thu Jul 18 09:53:38 2024 From: cszasz at mac.com (Charles Szasz) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 07:53:38 -0600 Subject: Encrypted text files Message-ID: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. Sent from my iPad From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 18 11:09:04 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:09:04 +0000 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> Message-ID: <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your biggest text files be? Bob S > On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode wrote: > > Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 18 11:10:15 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:10:15 +0000 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> Also be sure to write and read binary. Bob S > On Jul 18, 2024, at 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your biggest text files be? > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 19 10:38:15 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:38:15 -0400 Subject: Encrypted text files In-Reply-To: <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> References: <9F408C5B-3F2E-4399-9580-0B58C4730031@mac.com> <121A66E6-9A86-42C8-B8A7-BE2F37091202@iotecdigital.com> <0A98BF95-097F-4A67-B097-52F65287F1C8@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: function Encrypt_This pEncryptWhat,pKey,pSalt,pCipher local tEncryptedResult if pCipher = "" then encrypt pEncryptWhat using "aes256" with password pKey and salt pSalt else encrypt pEncryptWhat using pCipher with password pKey and salt pSalt end if return it end Encrypt_This function Decrypt_This pDecryptWhat,pKey,pSalt,pCipher local tDecryptResult put it try if pCipher = "" then decrypt pDecryptWhat using "aes256" with password pKey and salt pSalt else decrypt pDecryptWhat using pCipher with password pKey and salt pSalt end if catch tError put tError end try put the result into tDecryptResult if the result contains "Error" then put the result into tDecryptResult["error"] else put "ok" into tDecryptResult["result"] put it into tDecryptResult["data"] end if return tDecryptResult end Decrypt_This On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:11 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Also be sure to write and read binary. > > Bob S > > > > On Jul 18, 2024, at 8:08 AM, Bob Sneidar > wrote: > > > > I use the built-in encryption library. See encrypt and decrypt in the > dictionary. Not sure if there are size limits though. How big might your > biggest text files be? > > > > Bob S > > > > > >> On Jul 18, 2024, at 6:53 AM, Charles Szasz via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> Is there a reliable method to encrypt a text file using LC? I have an > app that generates text files and wanted encryption to my app. > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 19 10:52:57 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:52:57 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: see the issue i posted on the repo On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 12:20 PM Mike Kerner wrote: > cool > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Heyall, >> >> I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real project. >> So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 >> >> Methodology is explained in github page. >> It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from the >> generation. >> Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. >> >> Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. >> But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. >> If anyone wants to follow the project, >> Or help out in testing and correcting. >> >> websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the >> handlers. >> The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons >> of >> time already. >> It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. >> I think its a good starting point. >> >> Testing will start soon enough. >> I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, >> there is some kind of hope. >> My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example >> streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. >> >> https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode >> >> Enjoy. >> >> Tom >> . >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Jul 19 19:35:41 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 19:35:41 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 10-4 On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 10:54 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > see the issue i posted on the repo > > On Sat, Jul 13, 2024 at 12:20 PM Mike Kerner > wrote: > > > cool > > > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2024 at 9:06 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> Heyall, > >> > >> I wanted to test Anthropic's Claude Opus with Livecode on a real > project. > >> So I chose to worked with it to implement WebSocket's standard RFC 6455 > >> > >> Methodology is explained in github page. > >> It only had issue with 1 or 2 things, most code compiled straight from > the > >> generation. > >> Very impressed with it over ChatGPT. > >> > >> Obviously, its still WIP, untested code. > >> But I wanted to share it here at this, its earliest state. > >> If anyone wants to follow the project, > >> Or help out in testing and correcting. > >> > >> websocketking.com is what I will likely use to start testing the > >> handlers. > >> The hard part is yet to come, but I can't see how this did not save tons > >> of > >> time already. > >> It only took a couple hours, not including usage wait times. > >> I think its a good starting point. > >> > >> Testing will start soon enough. > >> I started this early so that when inevitably I really need web sockets, > >> there is some kind of hope. > >> My main need for this is the ability to stream data like for example > >> streaming responses from openAI voice / chat completions. > >> > >> https://github.com/MakeShyftRDA/Websockets-for-Livecode > >> > >> Enjoy. > >> > >> Tom > >> . > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 09:10:56 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:10:56 -0400 Subject: crop image Message-ID: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have the following script : create image put number of imgs into ni add 1 to Nflds put id of img ni into tid put imageData of img From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 09:23:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:23:11 -0400 Subject: crop image Message-ID: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I have the following script : create image put number of imgs into ni put id of img ni into tid set filename of img id tid to myFile put imageData of img id tid into pimage -- many lines for imagedata analysis crop image id tid to rect trect I get this error : crop: object is not an image However, when replacing the "crop..." line with select img id tid it works, the image is visible and selected, which means the image has been created. It is as if "crop" doesn't work for images created in the same script. I have tried with an image created before running the script, and it works. I also tried a workaround with "export snapshot" = it works, also the snapshot features the portion of the card behind the image, as if the image doesn't exist... Any idea ? I am using LC 9.6.9 on Mac 10.15. Thank you in advance. jbv From craig at starfirelighting.com Tue Jul 23 09:33:08 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:33:08 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> Hi. You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; put number of imgs into ni add 1 to Nflds put id of img ni into tid put imageData of img ni but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? Craig > On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi list, > > I have the following script : > > create image > put number of imgs into ni > add 1 to Nflds > put id of img ni into tid > put imageData of img > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Tue Jul 23 10:46:25 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:46:25 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i'd like to learn more about how you did this. i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable LC code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). From bogdanoff at me.com Tue Jul 23 11:59:53 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 11:59:53 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> Message-ID: <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> You use the “last” keyword, ie the highest numbered one: the last image Peter Bogdanoff > On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:33 AM, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi. > > You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; > > put number of imgs into ni > > add 1 to Nflds > > put id of img ni into tid > > put imageData of img ni > > > > but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? > > > > Craig > > >> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi list, >> >> I have the following script : >> >> create image >> put number of imgs into ni >> add 1 to Nflds >> put id of img ni into tid >> put imageData of img >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From craig at starfirelighting.com Tue Jul 23 12:08:48 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:08:48 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> Message-ID: Peter is correct in that you could: "put the imageData of last image into wherever” as opposed to finding the number of that image directly and using that info to do stuff. Be aware that the “last” keyword, though invaluable, is not stable when referring to groups. Craig > On Jul 23, 2024, at 11:59 AM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > You use the “last” keyword, ie the highest numbered one: > the last image > > > Peter Bogdanoff > > >> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:33 AM, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi. >> >> You need, at a minimum to avoid an error, at least this; >> >> put number of imgs into ni >> >> add 1 to Nflds >> >> put id of img ni into tid >> >> put imageData of img ni >> >> >> >> but only the very last line actually does anything, placing the imageData of ing ni into the message box. What is the other stuff for, and what are you trying to accomplish? >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >>> On Jul 23, 2024, at 9:10 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi list, >>> >>> I have the following script : >>> >>> create image >>> put number of imgs into ni >>> add 1 to Nflds >>> put id of img ni into tid >>> put imageData of img >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Tue Jul 23 12:29:28 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 12:29:28 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: References: <8d07be326bd52b4769c683b6c0f68920@souslelogo.com> <58BEE8B6-5D57-4C35-B06E-C1F4DC05963E@starfirelighting.com> <121A3F25-FE5B-41D8-B791-18846270F18B@me.com> Message-ID: <4476d4a5425c520ca0a9744c37f8a043@souslelogo.com> Please check mu second post on the same topic. For the first one, I pressed "send" by mistake before finishing to write it. Thanks. From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 23 18:32:01 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 18:32:01 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Hello All, I'll start. After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. I feel very positive about this change. Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... Then I want to be in full support of this model. I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was explained. Great job on that. I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to align their business model or to get off the platform. I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the future of my company MakeShyft. I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this at all. All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. Tom From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 23 19:29:46 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 19:29:46 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mike, I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from nothing the performance will be significantly worse. Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the source code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for the standard. And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess when I got to testing it On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable LC > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From htorrado at networkdreams.net Tue Jul 23 20:00:24 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 20:00:24 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Hi Tom, It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company usesuch as for a workforce of 100 employeeswould still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. Hery On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > Hello All, > > I'll start. > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > I feel very positive about this change. > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > explained. Great job on that. > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > align their business model or to get off the platform. > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > future of my company MakeShyft. > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this > at all. > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 03:59:07 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:59:07 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tom, Thanks for the feedback. We really appreciate it. I'm glad you think the communication was done well, these things are never easy to communicate and we worked really hard at that. We're very optimistic that these changes will give us the capacity to move a lot faster which is going to be great for us all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 23/07/2024, 23:32, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hello All, I'll start. After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. I feel very positive about this change. Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... Then I want to be in full support of this model. I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was explained. Great job on that. I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to align their business model or to get off the platform. I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the future of my company MakeShyft. I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this at all. All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. Tom _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 04:01:13 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:01:13 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Heriberto, Thanks for taking the time to post. If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more closely. Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here many times over. There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days which will help to better illustrate this comparison. With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, or at any point before 2027. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Tom, It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. Hery On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > Hello All, > > I'll start. > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > I feel very positive about this change. > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > explained. Great job on that. > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > align their business model or to get off the platform. > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > future of my company MakeShyft. > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this > at all. > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 04:17:04 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Col Kelly) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:17:04 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. Col. Sent from my iPhone. > On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. > > Hery > >> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> I'll start. >> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >> I feel very positive about this change. >> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >> >> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >> explained. Great job on that. >> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >> align their business model or to get off the platform. >> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >> >> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >> future of my company MakeShyft. >> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >> at all. >> >> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >> >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 04:46:36 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:46:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get while trying to read the most recent post on the site? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > many times over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, > or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > web site. > > > Hery > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I'll start. > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > I feel very positive about this change. > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > dev, > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > reasonable. > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > > explained. Great job on that. > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > this > > at all. > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > Tom > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 04:58:53 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:58:53 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> You should have received an email from us, I'll send the link offline. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 09:46, "use-livecode on behalf of David Bovill via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get while trying to read the most recent post on the site? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by your > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming you > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. Any > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. So > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what they > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they are > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > many times over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps out > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, getting > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that now, > or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > web site. > > > Hery > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I'll start. > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > I feel very positive about this change. > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > dev, > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > reasonable. > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was > > explained. Great job on that. > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > this > > at all. > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > Tom > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 05:00:45 2024 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:00:45 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <80737A3C-57A3-4C49-BFCF-3BFC7FA38774@livecode.com> Message-ID: Many thanks - a short blog post linking to “the future” might help with those of us not following home page? On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:59, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > You should have received an email from us, I'll send the link offline. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 09:46, "use-livecode on behalf of David Bovill via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, is there a public post regarding the new model - I’d like to view > it for a forthcoming project. Also you might want to fix the 404 you get > while trying to read the most recent post on the site? > > > On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 at 09:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > Hi Heriberto, > > > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to sell, > > its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed by > your > > company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little more > > closely. > > > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming > you > > don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter takes > > only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly mounts up. > Any > > app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create is going to pay > > for itself in the saving of your time when compared to the new licensing > > costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few apps are created > > perfect, most require regular changes as they encounter the real world. > So > > you have the ongoing increase in development costs for every update PLUS > > the lost productivity costs of each of those users having to wait longer > > for each update, or ending up with an app that simply doesn't do what > they > > need. This happens all the time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? > I > > have no idea what those users do so this could be way out, but if they > are > > earning say $50K a year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much > > time with a better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here > > many times over. > > > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps > out > > faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, > getting > > your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire user > base. > > > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming days > > which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that > now, > > or at any point before 2027. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 01:00, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via > > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating > > applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 > > employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount > > applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about > > Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move > > away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon > > Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user > > of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest > > investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a > > web site. > > > > > > Hery > > > > > > On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > > > > I'll start. > > > After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. > > > I feel very positive about this change. > > > Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo > > dev, > > > even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of > > reasonable. > > > The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. > > > If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev > > > cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... > > > Then I want to be in full support of this model. > > > > > > I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction > was > > > explained. Great job on that. > > > I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to > > > align their business model or to get off the platform. > > > I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs > > > > > > Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for > the > > > future of my company MakeShyft. > > > I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. > > > Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving > > this > > > at all. > > > > > > All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. > > > > > > Tom > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 05:03:11 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:03:11 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. Col. Sent from my iPhone. > On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. > > Hery > >> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> I'll start. >> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >> I feel very positive about this change. >> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >> >> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >> explained. Great job on that. >> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >> align their business model or to get off the platform. >> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >> >> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >> future of my company MakeShyft. >> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >> at all. >> >> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >> >> Tom >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Wed Jul 24 06:14:44 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Tweedly) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:14:44 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> References: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> Can you say anything about the future of LiveCode Server ? Thanks, Alex Sent from my iPad > On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:03, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. > > I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. > I guess I’m going to be forced down the PowerApps route. > > > Slightly annoyed that i’ve subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. > > > Col. > > > Sent from my iPhone. > > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company use—such as for a workforce of 100 employees—would still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. >> >> Hery >> >>>> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I'll start. >>> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >>> I feel very positive about this change. >>> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >>> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >>> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >>> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >>> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >>> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >>> >>> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >>> explained. Great job on that. >>> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >>> align their business model or to get off the platform. >>> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >>> >>> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >>> future of my company MakeShyft. >>> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >>> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >>> at all. >>> >>> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >>> >>> Tom >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From smk at anvic.net Wed Jul 24 06:22:51 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:22:51 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: One feature of the present commercial licensing is that I decide the terms and conditions that apply to any application I build. What happens under the new licensing if I build an application either for sale or for a client and then some time in the future the application is duplicated, distributed and used without my permission or even knowledge? Does RunRev chase me, the purchaser or both of us for breach of their license conditions? best wishes Simon From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 06:30:31 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:30:31 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: Well in practical terms if you don't know about it it's even harder for us to know. These sorts of things do happen but only occasionally so I don't spend too much time worrying about it. Obviously a sensible conversation would need to be had if it was discovered, most of which we would expect to be between you and your customer. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 11:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Simon Knight via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: One feature of the present commercial licensing is that I decide the terms and conditions that apply to any application I build. What happens under the new licensing if I build an application either for sale or for a client and then some time in the future the application is duplicated, distributed and used without my permission or even knowledge? Does RunRev chase me, the purchaser or both of us for breach of their license conditions? best wishes Simon _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From selander at tkf.att.ne.jp Wed Jul 24 06:51:13 2024 From: selander at tkf.att.ne.jp (Tim Selander) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:51:13 +0900 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> References: <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <4F4CF911-E624-4F82-A48E-D2CB86BE9E06@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander On 2024/07/24 19:14, Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > Can you say anything about the future of LiveCode Server ? > > Thanks, > Alex > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:03, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I'm sorry to hear this. You'll still gain access to anything that remains to be delivered from crowd funding. >> >> I do want to dig into the economics of this a little more though. At a quantity of 180 users, PowerApps costs roughly 33% more per seat than we do! LiveCode, even *without* the (up to 10x) development speed increase Create is bringing, is so much more productive than PowerApps (you told us this yourself for your own use case). So its 33% cheaper, and massively faster... Sounds reasonable to me? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 09:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Col Kelly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> >> Totally agree and find myself in the same position with 180+/- internal workers, we only use LC for rapid prototyping although we do have some utilities that were built with LC. >> I guess Im going to be forced down the PowerApps route. >> >> >> Slightly annoyed that ive subscribed and been part of all the crowdfunded projects that never materialised or are still in dev. >> >> >> Col. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone. >> >> >>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 01:01, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>> It appears that under this licensing model, developers creating applications for internal company usesuch as for a workforce of 100 employeeswould still need to pay $15,520 even with the 30% discount applied. I hope I've misunderstood, but upon receiving the email about Livecode Create, I considered purchasing a license to permanently move away from the outdated "Community" version (we have a lot of silicon Macs). However, if I have to explain to my boss that each internal user of the Livecode-built app would cost $155.2, she would likely suggest investing that money in a Flutter course, Lazarus IDE or to develop a web site. >>> >>> Hery >>> >>>>> On 7/23/24 18:32, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I'll start. >>>> After reviewing Livecode's new direction and offer. >>>> I feel very positive about this change. >>>> Maybe in the future I will feel differently, but currently, as a solo dev, >>>> even 2 or 3 devs, as I expand, it all is kind of in the range of reasonable. >>>> The <= 5% tax hurts a bit, but its manageable. >>>> If this is a model that creates better sustainability and faster dev >>>> cycles for Livecode, and if thats really true ... >>>> Then I want to be in full support of this model. >>>> >>>> I was somewhat surprised (sorry honest) at how well the new direction was >>>> explained. Great job on that. >>>> I like the no-pressure offer. 2027 is a lot of heads up for people to >>>> align their business model or to get off the platform. >>>> I like the flexibility of the offer for different kinds of devs >>>> >>>> Of course my review is based on my own situation and my own plans for the >>>> future of my company MakeShyft. >>>> I also work @ Canela, which is a hat I am not wearing at this moment. >>>> Everyone's situation is different, and I can see some users not loving this >>>> at all. >>>> >>>> All the best, may we all prosper and have our dreams come true. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Jul 24 06:55:05 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:55:05 +0200 Subject: @Kevin - some questions about GDRP and what exactly happens with the Lifetime Commercial (all current and future platforms) licenses Message-ID: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Dear Kevin, I am asking this here, as I am sure there a many who are also having the same or similar questions. As i correctly understand, then the product "Livecode Internal Apps" tracks the number of users. What information is collected and where is it stored? Are those servers located in the US or EU? Does it comply with GDRP? Does the new cloud solution in general comply with GDRP? What exactly happens to Livecode Server? What exactly happens with the Commercial Lifetime licenses from Kickstarter, which included current and all future platforms? Will they, even not maintained, at least still work after 2027? Or will they be disabled? Although I had such a license I also had a subscription for a Business license, although I really did not need that Business features. It was more a support to LC, because Lifetime licenses does not bring any money. I even funded most of your "projects", starting with On-Rev Server and revMobile. I evend "funded" the ScriptCompiler, although I was sure, that I do not really need it. My personal situation is the following. I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. I would not have a problem with paying for a developer license + the 5% fee for my sales, although I do not earn much money with it. I even would also not have a problem with it to purchase also a Internal Apps Developer license. But over the years I've created many Internal Apps and LC server scripts. A large number of them is still maintained. Some of them run scheduled and unattended on a server. Some of them are used by about 10 or 12 users. Those are not big apps, just simple helper tools. One tool for example is run every time the user sends an email from the ERP. It uses pdftk server and Ghostscrip in the background to manipulate PDF files before they are sent out by email to customers. According to the new pricing we would have to pay at least 4356 /year (1 dev + 10 users to use this tool. That is definitely a knockout criterion. I would understand to pay this when using the new features of the new product, but not for maintaining/bugfixing and even for creating simple apps without the need of AI, Cloud and whatever extraordinary feature/functions the new product comes with... Regards, Matthias From smilingeyes at mac.com Wed Jul 24 07:54:59 2024 From: smilingeyes at mac.com (Raymond Bennett) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 07:54:59 -0400 Subject: [Virus Error] Livecode Future - LC Server and Web licensing Message-ID: Kevin and Co. - Thanks as always for all you've done and continue to do. Livecode Server didn't get mentioned (that I saw) in this announcement. My assumption is LC Server will continue. If that's true, then that brings me to the question of licensing for web deployments. If the application does it's work via the web - e.g. an app like the Meetingspace app from the 2022 conference - what is the license model for that? Thank you. Ray Bennett From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 08:12:41 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:12:41 +0100 Subject: @Kevin - some questions about GDRP and what exactly happens with the Lifetime Commercial (all current and future platforms) licenses In-Reply-To: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <775735C2-6E79-46B7-95B0-BC676832F577@livecode.com> Hi Matthias, Thanks for your questions. Tracking users - yes we will track and collect this information. You will be able to see it in a user portal too. While we don’t yet offer it, you will soon have a choice of data centre. We are GDPR compliant. We will also offer a contract for a specific number of users without tracking for those of you that have more sensitive apps. The cloud solution in general will comply with GDPR yes. I have outlined in a specific video our policy on lifetime licenses, its on the page near the bottom for those of you that had those licenses (you will have received a different email to the others with a different link). I’m glad to hear that the developer license + application payments works for your commercial app. Your specific use of LiveCode Server on its own is an interesting question. I did speak to several dozen customers personally prior to making this change (including you!) and it was not a question that really came up in any major way. Obviously in the case of application payments it's just part of that model. However the use you have here seems like a bit of an edge case. Clearly there is value in our server platform but perhaps not as much as when you’re using our full tech stack with GUI delivery (or the new Cloud features) etc. I’m going to take this offline and ask you a number of questions about this so we can figure out something sensible. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 11:55, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Dear Kevin, I am asking this here, as I am sure there a many who are also having the same or similar questions. As i correctly understand, then the product "Livecode Internal Apps" tracks the number of users. What information is collected and where is it stored? Are those servers located in the US or EU? Does it comply with GDRP? Does the new cloud solution in general comply with GDRP? What exactly happens to Livecode Server? What exactly happens with the Commercial Lifetime licenses from Kickstarter, which included current and all future platforms? Will they, even not maintained, at least still work after 2027? Or will they be disabled? Although I had such a license I also had a subscription for a Business license, although I really did not need that Business features. It was more a support to LC, because Lifetime licenses does not bring any money. I even funded most of your "projects", starting with On-Rev Server and revMobile. I evend "funded" the ScriptCompiler, although I was sure, that I do not really need it. My personal situation is the following. I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. I would not have a problem with paying for a developer license + the 5% fee for my sales, although I do not earn much money with it. I even would also not have a problem with it to purchase also a Internal Apps Developer license. But over the years I've created many Internal Apps and LC server scripts. A large number of them is still maintained. Some of them run scheduled and unattended on a server. Some of them are used by about 10 or 12 users. Those are not big apps, just simple helper tools. One tool for example is run every time the user sends an email from the ERP. It uses pdftk server and Ghostscrip in the background to manipulate PDF files before they are sent out by email to customers. According to the new pricing we would have to pay at least 4356 /year (1 dev + 10 users to use this tool. That is definitely a knockout criterion. I would understand to pay this when using the new features of the new product, but not for maintaining/bugfixing and even for creating simple apps without the need of AI, Cloud and whatever extraordinary feature/functions the new product comes with... Regards, Matthias _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 24 08:28:08 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:28:08 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: so, for you, the trick was: * claude (opus) * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did that) * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc anything else? On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hey Mike, > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from nothing > the performance will be significantly worse. > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the source > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for the > standard. > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess when I > got to testing it > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate reasonable > LC > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 24 08:29:33 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:29:33 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kevin You mentioned a difference between having classic, web based and universal. How does that reflect in the pricing as there only seems to be the option for two models, internal and external apps. Does a ‘seat’ cover use for all the platforms? This will also have a great impact on ‘value’, I’m sure. Sean Cole Still developing for one LC subscriber but in LC5.0.2 having been forced out of actual business by the non-delivery of LC10 into stable and most features invested into not arriving as promised along. Baffled by the fact LCLtd are giving people only 1mth to ‘decide’ (like that makes it an actual ‘decision’; it’s more like being held at gunpoint as LCLtd are killing “classic”) and fund into yet another DP (!!) that may not ever see the ‘Stable’, much like LC10 which hasn’t seen an update since Apr’23. It’s a bit ‘cheeky’, you cheeky chappies 😜😛😜 you. 😅 Good job glossing over this 😚😉 From General.2018 at outlook.com Wed Jul 24 08:49:29 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:49:29 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID:  Hi Kevin, I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. Is that the understanding ? Regards Camm On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 08:58:02 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:58:02 +0100 Subject: [Virus Error] Livecode Future - LC Server and Web licensing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Server will continue yes. The majority of web deployments will be things that aren't classified as commercial in our model. However if you're building a web platform for paying customers to use or some sort of information system for your employees, then one of the two license types - internal users or apps for sale would apply. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 12:54, "use-livecode on behalf of Raymond Bennett via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin and Co. - Thanks as always for all you've done and continue to do. Livecode Server didn't get mentioned (that I saw) in this announcement. My assumption is LC Server will continue. If that's true, then that brings me to the question of licensing for web deployments. If the application does it's work via the web - e.g. an app like the Meetingspace app from the 2022 conference - what is the license model for that? Thank you. Ray Bennett _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:04:42 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:04:42 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> If the app is genuinely a free companion app then there are no fees payable under our model. It sounds like that is the case here so no change. What we won't accept is someone pretending the app is free and restructuring their business model to make it appear that way when its actually a paid app. I'm not suggesting that is the case here. However if the VAT man was to determine that this app should be paying digital services tax in future then we'd also consider it to have a value at that point. In terms of removing the label, it will be a very small tasteful badge. Lets have another conversation about it at the time to see if this is really an issue. I except we can come up with a solution if so. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 13:49, "use-livecode on behalf of General 2018 via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin, I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. Is that the understanding ? Regards Camm On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode > wrote: Yes, this is quite important to me as well. Thanks, Tim Selander _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:05:58 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:05:58 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <684A916B-5005-4031-8642-E6F7E2FD9A46@livecode.com> The bigger difference here is in internal users who buy either Native/Cloud or Universal. In the apps for sale only the developers need those seats, there is no difference to the application payments model regardless of what platforms you deploy. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 13:29, "use-livecode on behalf of Pi Digital via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin You mentioned a difference between having classic, web based and universal. How does that reflect in the pricing as there only seems to be the option for two models, internal and external apps. Does a ‘seat’ cover use for all the platforms? This will also have a great impact on ‘value’, I’m sure. Sean Cole Still developing for one LC subscriber but in LC5.0.2 having been forced out of actual business by the non-delivery of LC10 into stable and most features invested into not arriving as promised along. Baffled by the fact LCLtd are giving people only 1mth to ‘decide’ (like that makes it an actual ‘decision’; it’s more like being held at gunpoint as LCLtd are killing “classic”) and fund into yet another DP (!!) that may not ever see the ‘Stable’, much like LC10 which hasn’t seen an update since Apr’23. It’s a bit ‘cheeky’, you cheeky chappies 😜😛😜 you. 😅 Good job glossing over this 😚😉 _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:13:27 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:13:27 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <48466A01-DC46-4AF9-9C31-C57FF93ECE76@mac.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> Message-ID: <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 09:22:28 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:22:28 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: Right - so your company has already recognized the value of being able to deploy custom apps to their employees and willingly pays a monthly per-user fee to do so. That vendor happens to be to Microsoft rather than LiveCode. Our new platform provides more value than Power Apps and has had a great deal of investment in it. Unfortunately I can’t really help that your company has bought a solution from someone else. Trying to price our platform in a non-commercial way because you have something else installed would make it unviable for us. I suspect making the same suggestion that Microsoft should offer their platform for less would not be entertained by Microsoft either! Drop me a line off list and lets have a chat about what we can do. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Colin Kelly Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 13:21 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future As our employees all have a valid MS 0365 Business standard license and Powerapps are deployed via a tab in Microsoft Teams then there is no other cost for deploying PowerApps, the cost of deploying PowerApps over LC is significantly less! From General.2018 at outlook.com Wed Jul 24 09:59:34 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:59:34 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> References: <1126BA67-B3E5-4318-86A7-1F436D362368@livecode.com> Message-ID: Hi Kevin , Thanks for the reply. Well that sounds promising. Totally agree if digital service VAT is deemed due then the app can no longer be classed as free. Kind Regards > On 24 Jul 2024, at 14:05, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If the app is genuinely a free companion app then there are no fees payable under our model. It sounds like that is the case here so no change. What we won't accept is someone pretending the app is free and restructuring their business model to make it appear that way when its actually a paid app. I'm not suggesting that is the case here. However if the VAT man was to determine that this app should be paying digital services tax in future then we'd also consider it to have a value at that point. > > In terms of removing the label, it will be a very small tasteful badge. Lets have another conversation about it at the time to see if this is really an issue. I except we can come up with a solution if so. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 13:49, "use-livecode on behalf of General 2018 via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, > > > I have one commercial app which is sold through Fastspring. Fastspring take care of the digital service VAT. I make small sums from this and the 5% would hurt a little. This fits the new licence “Apps for Sale” > > > The concern is my second app, this is offered commercially as a package with a hardware product. The software is not available separately and attaches no cost. > This is exempt from the digital service VAT. It falls under free software in the real world and would look bad with the Livecode mandatory message “non-commerical” blinking at buyers of the package. To remove the Livecode message it’s needs to be commercial with non zero cost as per the licence model, this would be a killer as if the cost is even £1 then digital service VAT is due which would disrupt the way in which my product is distributed and controlled. > > > So, under the new Livecode licence models the seller of a commercial product package containing hardware and software in which the software element has no standalone value is being forced to charge separately for software, pay 5% and enter the world digital service VAT. > > > Is that the understanding ? > > > > > Regards > Camm > > > On 24 Jul 2024, at 11:52, Tim Selander via use-livecode > wrote: > > > Yes, this is quite important to me as well. > > > Thanks, > Tim Selander > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From gagsoft at iafrica.com Wed Jul 24 10:27:57 2024 From: gagsoft at iafrica.com (Peter Gagiano) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:27:57 +0200 (SAST) Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> Message-ID: <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Hi Kevin Hi Heather. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developed and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" To: "How to use LiveCode" Cc: "Kevin Miller" Sent: Wednesday, 24 July, 2024 15:13:27 Subject: Re: Livecode Future Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 10:45:40 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:45:40 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> References: <31177A2F-944D-4474-A33F-9A603A875676@livecode.com> <93BBFE8E-CA19-404F-A5AB-5CAEB4EC3144@livecode.com> <958626149.19243826.1721831277979.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Message-ID: <266A9126-26B9-4397-9D91-3C289A6FAE7B@livecode.com> Hi Peter, Thanks for this. I'm going to send this on to support if that’s ok, so Heather can help you with your specific subscription options. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 15:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Peter Gagiano via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Kevin Hi Heather. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developed and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > To: "How to use LiveCode" > Cc: "Kevin Miller" > Sent: Wednesday, 24 July, 2024 15:13:27 Subject: Re: Livecode Future Thanks Keith. I’ll see if we can tweak the FAQ slightly. (Copying the list here as I accidentally replied to you off list.) Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 12:55 To: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future Amazing. Thank you for the clarifications, they are quite reassuring. I look forward to adding my 2 pence worth of input on the branded styling and positioning. :) Perhaps the FAQ answer re free apps and resources could be clarified slightly? I was concerned that it might be related to what appears to be a phone home mechanism (which itself is a mild concern – I removed a simple update check process in my metadata-adding app because I got pushback about it – although I get the reasons). Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com +44 (0)7909541365 On 24 Jul 2024, at 10:08, Kevin Miller > wrote:  Hi Keith, Thanks for this. We’re happy to receive input in the styling and positioning of the badge. It can be something small in the corner that doesn’t downgrade the look of your app. We will consult you on this as we get closer to the time. Lots of other platforms do tastefully attribute themselves in similar circumstances. I’m sure we can work together to get this right. In terms of resources, we are talking about the use of our Cloud hosting for you app, Cloud server actions (obviously not any client side ones) and data use. It’s highly unlikely that the app you describe is going to make a meaningful impact on resource usage. If it does, we’ll be selling additional Cloud resources at cost or near to cost. Or you can just go on hosting the apps yourself in which case you won’t be using our resources at all. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Keith Martin > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 09:55 To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future I'm interested in the direction things are going, but I am specifically concerned about the FAQ answer relating to free apps: "Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable." I see how you're choosing to 'square the circle' here, but to me this feels like forcing my free apps (which is what I make, period) to declare themselves as second-class app citizens. And there's the question of how those badges will be shown; I can only imagine that's going to impact any carefully crafted UI. The Fair Use Limits FAQ answer is also a tad alarming and raises rather more questions than it answers! "Free apps will have a lower threshold of fair use limits for resource usage" What resource use is this? My most popular utility inserts metadata into 360-degree images. It's free, a tool for the 360 photography community. It doesn't use any external resources, which is specifically how I designed it. Does this mean I can relax? I don't begrudge LiveCode the company for coming up with new ways to make money; after all, ongoing development of LiveCode the software is vital. But my software output is 100% free and basically 'pro bono' and I pay for my LC license from my own pocket in order to keep doing this. I'm worried that the coming changes will, although not by conscious design, effectively make my apps look 'cheap as in cheesy,' and also squeeze me out of the dev community. Keith Keith Martin 360 media specialist https://Mister360.co.uk Contact and info https://ThatKeith.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 10:55:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:55:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> Message-ID: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of antitrust case to catch up. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From: Colin Kelly Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Livecode Future Hi Kevin, I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that we would already be using so not an additional cost MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. -- From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 11:44:50 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:44:50 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of the correct syntax. Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you can also include files as part of knowledge base.) I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a little better in this regard. See if you have better luck generating livecode with this https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt Thanks, Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > so, for you, the trick was: > * claude (opus) > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > that) > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > anything else? > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Hey Mike, > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > nothing > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > source > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for > the > > standard. > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks for > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > when I > > got to testing it > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > reasonable > > LC > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From prothero at ucsb.edu Wed Jul 24 11:52:58 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:52:58 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Folks, I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? Thanks, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 11:54:54 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:54:54 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. Bob S From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Jul 24 11:56:22 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:56:22 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Find Out More > On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > Folks, > I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? > > Thanks, > Bill > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 12:08:47 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:08:47 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large products at a quick pace as well. So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade plus, with many different products. I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the community to build.) So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as Kevin said in the video. To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and faster updates. That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really sucks. I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. Thanks for listening Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:09:35 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:09:35 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:14:53 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:14:53 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) The minisite link you want is here: https://future.livecode.com/ Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > Find Out More > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Folks, >> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >> >> Thanks, >> Bill >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:30:31 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:30:31 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <4BF94E20-254F-4C05-831E-B4374FF9CBF4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: Too late. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote: > > Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) > > The minisite link you want is here: > > https://future.livecode.com/ > > Best Regards, > > Heather > > Heather Laine > Customer Services Manager > LiveCode Ltd > www.livecode.com > > > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Find Out More >> >> >>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Bill >>> >>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:37:46 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:37:46 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> No, those apps will continue to work. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > > I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Jul 24 12:39:02 2024 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 12:39:02 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: I don’t think that there is any “phone home” to LiveCode in compiled classic apps. Peter Bogdanoff > On Jul 24, 2024, at 12:09 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. > > I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 24 12:46:14 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:46:14 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <09D15467-B8B1-434E-9874-8BBACB5DA9E1@iotecdigital.com> <0CEC8D76-5675-459F-AA42-5072CA08A050@livecode.com> Message-ID: <8B737E1F-7D2A-4FFF-A5EE-A5DB33082410@iotecdigital.com> Thanks Kevin that is much more encouraging. At least I won’t have to abandon the work I have already done. Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:37 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > No, those apps will continue to work. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires? That will suck big time. I just compared my current license with what I would pay under the new one for 3 users. It isn’t encouraging. And right now I can distribute my app to as many users as I want. So the value for the new pricing model goes into the tank right from the outset, and gets worse the more users I want to add. > > > I am sorry to say, this is a hard no for me. > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> I think that there ought to be an option to continue to pay the classic license fee to continue to use classic, with the understanding that no future updates would be provided. I am the only developer, but I have 2 other people who use my compiled app internally. I *might* be able to convince the owners to pay for the yearly license fee for classic (I’ve footed the bill all this time), on the basis that I could expand the use of my app to anyone in the company, but not if they have to pay for each user of my app. >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From prothero at ucsb.edu Wed Jul 24 12:46:16 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:46:16 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the link. I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Too late. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) >> >> The minisite link you want is here: >> >> https://future.livecode.com/ >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Heather >> >> Heather Laine >> Customer Services Manager >> LiveCode Ltd >> www.livecode.com >> >> >> >>>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Find Out More >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:52:15 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:52:15 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are Application Payments?". Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large products at a quick pace as well. So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade plus, with many different products. I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the community to build.) So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as Kevin said in the video. To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and faster updates. That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really sucks. I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. Thanks for listening Tom On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > To: How to use LiveCode > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing that > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 12:53:53 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:53:53 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Thanks for the link. I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. Best, Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > > Too late. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:14 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Folks... please don't click that link, its a personally tracked link and will skew our stats weirdly :) >> >> The minisite link you want is here: >> >> https://future.livecode.com/ >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Heather >> >> Heather Laine >> Customer Services Manager >> LiveCode Ltd >> www.livecode.com >> >> >> >>>> On 24 Jul 2024, at 16:56, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Find Out More >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2024, at 11:52 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> I have full lucrsnses for livecode, yet seem to have missed descriptions of the new livecode services that are being discussed. What is the "Create" platform being added? Is there a place I can get info? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> William A. Prothero, PhD >>>> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >>>> University of California, Santa Barbara >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Jul 24 13:03:13 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:03:13 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what did you send to chatgpt to generate the LC expert model? On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:46 AM Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. > so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. > The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to > figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of the > correct syntax. > Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude > "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you can > also include files as part of knowledge base.) > > I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a > little better in this regard. > > See if you have better luck generating livecode with this > > https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > so, for you, the trick was: > > * claude (opus) > > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > > that) > > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > > anything else? > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work better > > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > > nothing > > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > > source > > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs for > > the > > > standard. > > > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks > for > > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > > when I > > > got to testing it > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > > reasonable > > > LC > > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From mailkeliko01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 13:09:27 2024 From: mailkeliko01 at gmail.com (Riko Abadi) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:09:27 +0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. > > Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what > you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue > increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are > Application Payments?". > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. > > > I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. > While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet > I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself > so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large > products at a quick pace as well. > > > So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. > Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade > plus, with many different products. > I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the > community to build.) > > > So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as > Kevin said in the video. > > > To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? > And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and > faster updates. > That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. > > > I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really > sucks. > I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. > > > Thanks for listening > > > Tom > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly > > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > > To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing > that > > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From craig at starfirelighting.com Wed Jul 24 13:23:49 2024 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:23:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. Craig > On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode wrote: > > I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my > web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the > Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web > hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >> >> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >> Application Payments?". >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >> use-livecode" > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >> >> >> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >> products at a quick pace as well. >> >> >> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >> plus, with many different products. >> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >> community to build.) >> >> >> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >> Kevin said in the video. >> >> >> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >> faster updates. >> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >> >> >> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >> sucks. >> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >> >> >> Thanks for listening >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>> >>> >>> >>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>> antitrust case to catch up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ >> http://www.livecode.com/ >>> >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Colin Kelly > >>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>> To: How to use LiveCode > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> >>> Cc: Kevin Miller > >>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> >>> >>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >> that >>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>> >>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 13:28:05 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:28:05 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <3579ECBB-964C-4C6A-B0F3-AF9DC5A696A2@livecode.com> No, only the revenue attributable to the app. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:09, "use-livecode on behalf of Riko Abadi via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. > > Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what > you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue > increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are > Application Payments?". > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. > > > I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. > While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet > I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself > so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large > products at a quick pace as well. > > > So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. > Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade > plus, with many different products. > I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the > community to build.) > > > So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as > Kevin said in the video. > > > To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? > And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and > faster updates. > That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. > > > I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really > sucks. > I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. > > > Thanks for listening > > > Tom > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > > Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per > > user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. > > > > > > > > The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very > > disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me > > as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in > > the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of > > antitrust case to catch up. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Colin Kelly >> > > Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 > > To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > > Cc: Kevin Miller >> > > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > > > > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > > > > > I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 > > Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we > > subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business > > applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy > > developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing > that > > we would already be using so not an additional cost > > > > MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 13:28:27 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:28:27 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <422AD9A9-2F4D-48C6-A731-DA0E37D8BE1A@livecode.com> I'll see if we can expand the FAQ a bit further tomorrow. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:23, "use-livecode on behalf of Craig Newman via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. Craig > On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode > wrote: > > I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my > web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the > Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web > hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >> >> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >> Application Payments?". >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >> use-livecode" > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> wrote: >> >> >> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >> >> >> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >> products at a quick pace as well. >> >> >> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >> plus, with many different products. >> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >> community to build.) >> >> >> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >> Kevin said in the video. >> >> >> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >> faster updates. >> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >> >> >> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >> sucks. >> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >> >> >> Thanks for listening >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>> >>> >>> >>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>> antitrust case to catch up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ >> http://www.livecode.com/ >>> >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Colin Kelly >> >>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>> To: How to use LiveCode > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >>> Cc: Kevin Miller >> >>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> >>> >>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >> that >>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>> >>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 24 13:47:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:47:11 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Hi list, I am a bit lost as I am trying to figure out how I fit in the new license plans. I have built a couple of desktop apps years ago for 2 different clients who use them in their business, with less than 20 users in total. These apps make intensive use of LC server and I also have 2 LC-hosting accounts. I keep maintaining these apps with cosmetic changes once or twice a year. Most of the time these modifications represent less than 1% or 2% of the code, but each time I need to recompile for MacOS & Windows. I use a license for MacOS and Windows which gets renewed every year. Therefore my question : how will I be able to continue in the same way ? Thanks, jbv From dan at clearvisiontech.com Wed Jul 24 14:27:31 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:27:31 +0000 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a firewall other security method)? -Dan From heather at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:30:58 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:30:58 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <3D63186F-416E-49B2-B1C9-415B2FCD7833@livecode.com> <55C3AA7F-ED40-4BDE-BC48-0BAB9331567F@livecode.com> <8DCC1B8A-6B95-4E92-AA2F-9B74D8D69B2B@livecode.com> Message-ID: <19993D5F-A5F8-4E76-A283-6C2BE84EFE46@livecode.com> https://future.livecode.com/faq/ Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 24 Jul 2024, at 18:23, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > > I just read "Are the current compiled classic apps going to be disabled when the classic license expires?" > > This topic is being discussed as well on the forum. I suggested there that a FAQ page be set up because there are still fundamental questions that are causing confusion at best, and anger and disappointment at worst. > > Craig > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Riko Abadi via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I have developed an Android application using LiveCode which I use for my >> web hosting business. Customers can monitor their servers through the >> Android app created with LiveCode. Do I have to pay 5% of my total web >> hosting revenue? My backend is built with Golang, not a LiveCode server. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:52 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for sharing this Tom, really appreciate it. >>> >>> Just one point. When you get to $1M in revenue your payments are half what >>> you suggest I,e. $25K as the percentage steadily drops as your revenue >>> increases. You can see an example PDF table in the FAQ under "How much are >>> Application Payments?". >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 24/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via >>> use-livecode" >> use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I want to add a couple of points about my own case / stance. >>> >>> >>> I have been with Livecode for about 11 years. >>> While I have not yet shipped a whole lot ...yet >>> I took all this time to work on my skills and to build tooling for myself >>> so that I can create small niche products extremely quickly and also large >>> products at a quick pace as well. >>> >>> >>> So in a very real sense I've been building income potential. >>> Income potential, which I will be joyfully executing on for the next decade >>> plus, with many different products. >>> I've spent MAYBE $3 or 4K on Livecode over those years (because I used the >>> community to build.) >>> >>> >>> So in my case, to me, I really have received much value from Livecode, as >>> Kevin said in the video. >>> >>> >>> To me, Livecode is asking, ...Tom, can you pay us 50k to make $1 million? >>> And they are promising an increasingly better platform in exchange, and >>> faster updates. >>> That leaves $950k for me, my family and my business. >>> >>> >>> I cannot speak on behalf of anyone else, and clearly for some this really >>> sucks. >>> I'm sorry for that and in no way am I saying that this is easy. >>> >>> >>> Thanks for listening >>> >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 10:55 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Included or not, your company is paying for the platform as a whole, per >>>> user, per month and some of that revenue will be going to Power Apps. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The fact that you aren’t specifically choosing to subscribe to it is very >>>> disappointing. I won’t get into a whole argument here but that strikes me >>>> as monopolistic. Microsoft have been in trouble for this sort of thing in >>>> the past. Unfortunately we won’t have time to wait for some sort of >>>> antitrust case to catch up. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ >>> http://www.livecode.com/ >>>> >>>> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Colin Kelly > >>>> Date: Wednesday 24 July 2024 at 15:35 >>>> To: How to use LiveCode >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> >>>> Cc: Kevin Miller > >>>> Subject: Re: Livecode Future >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Kevin, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I see your argument but disagree with your premise, We don’t buy MS o365 >>>> Business standard license for our users SO we can deploy PowerApps, we >>>> subscribe to 0365 for our users so they have access to business >>>> applications like Excel, Word, Outlook, Teams etc. the ability to deploy >>>> developed PowerApps to our users is a benefit of Microsoft’s licensing >>> that >>>> we would already be using so not an additional cost >>>> >>>> MS O365 is pretty much a standard across all business sectors. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 14:45:36 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:45:36 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: This is a good question, or if the license server goes down..... I think in case of failure it has to allow the software to proceed. Otherwise EVERYTHING hinges on some droplet on digital ocean. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:28 PM Dan Friedman via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, > what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by > a firewall other security method)? > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:53:47 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:53:47 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Please drop a line to support so we can talk through your specific/individual question in more detail. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 18:47, "use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi list, I am a bit lost as I am trying to figure out how I fit in the new license plans. I have built a couple of desktop apps years ago for 2 different clients who use them in their business, with less than 20 users in total. These apps make intensive use of LC server and I also have 2 LC-hosting accounts. I keep maintaining these apps with cosmetic changes once or twice a year. Most of the time these modifications represent less than 1% or 2% of the code, but each time I need to recompile for MacOS & Windows. I use a license for MacOS and Windows which gets renewed every year. Therefore my question : how will I be able to continue in the same way ? Thanks, jbv _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ludovic.thebault at laposte.net Wed Jul 24 14:53:25 2024 From: ludovic.thebault at laposte.net (Ludovic THEBAULT) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 20:53:25 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> > Le 24 juil. 2024 à 18:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode a écrit : > > Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin Hello, A few questions : If I take out a licence for the new software, what happens to the current subscription? Is it automatically cancelled? According to the FAQ, you can continue to work ‘the old way’ until the new interface is finalised. Is Livecode 10 actually included in the new package? Or is it a new software that will offer a few new features like automatic backup and AI? Will current plug-ins such as Datagrid helper be able to be used with the new software (at least in ‘classic’ mode)? Thanks. Ludovic From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 24 14:55:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:55:23 +0100 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are able to get online. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a firewall other security method)? -Dan _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Wed Jul 24 15:58:53 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:58:53 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is constructive, and not hold back. Thank you in advance. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > able to get online. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > firewall other security method)? > > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jeff at siphonophore.com Wed Jul 24 16:04:44 2024 From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:04:44 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. Jeff From htorrado at networkdreams.net Wed Jul 24 19:18:57 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:18:57 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3d4966d5-f453-4a80-ae02-c7deb9ea82b4@networkdreams.net> Hi Kevin, Thank you very much for your response. It is an honor to receive a reply from the founder of Livecode. I had indeed misunderstood the non-commercial internal use licenses, so I appreciate the clarification. Perhaps it might be helpful to address this on the future Livecode website, as it may not be very clear to others as well. The cost of the commercial license seems reasonable and in line with what other manufacturers charge. As you mentioned, time is gold, and being productive in developing an app or website significantly impacts a company's costs. Over fifteen years ago, I decided to invest my time and knowledge in Livecode because I consider it the best cross-platform tool available. However, I was initially concerned when I thought each employee had to pay $150 for using a small application in-house. I am currently developing small applications and websites within the company, such as an application for our IT department to easily encrypt and decrypt folders. I congratulate you and all Livecode team for continuing to lead Livecode for more than 25 years. You have taken the baton from Hypercard and elevated it to an incredible level. Now that I know you read my messages, I would like take advantage :-) and to suggest considering a new GPL version of Livecode Server Script. Years ago, I replaced all my Python scripts with Livecode. I believe a GPL version of Livecode Server would significantly boost the platform. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/24/24 04:01, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > Hi Heriberto, > > Thanks for taking the time to post. > > If those 100 users are non-commercial users, i.e. not employees or > customers, then there isn't a charge. If you're building the app to > sell, its a different model. With that said, if those users are employed > by your company then it bears looking at the economics of this a little > more closely. > > Firstly, there is the time it takes you to build the app. I'm assuming > you don't work for free, so this is a real cost. If we say that Flutter > takes only a few times as long to build the app, this cost quickly > mounts up. Any app that takes more than a week or two to build in Create > is going to pay for itself in the saving of your time when compared to > the new licensing costs. Then there is the ongoing cost to consider. Few > apps are created perfect, most require regular changes as they > encounter the real world. So you have the ongoing increase in > development costs for every update PLUS the lost productivity costs of > each of those users having to wait longer for each update, or ending up > with an app that simply doesn't do what they need. This happens all the > time. What's the wage bill for 100 employees? I have no idea what those > users do so this could be way out, but if they are earning say $50K a > year then that's $5M. You don't have to save very much time with a > better app delivered sooner to save the licensing cost here many times > over. > > There is a reason we've invested tens of millions of dollars in our > platform: it's to make you more productive and let you get better apps > out faster. Saving development time is a direct development staff cost, > getting your app and revisions out faster saves costs across your entire > user base. > > We'll be doing a more detailed comparison with Flutter in the coming > days which will help to better illustrate this comparison. > > With all of that said we'd be happy to get on a call to talk about this > some more if it's helpful for either you or your boss. We can do that > now, or at any point before 2027. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin From htorrado at networkdreams.net Wed Jul 24 19:51:15 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:51:15 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> Hi Jeff, I believe many people don't consider you to be an odd duck at all. You come from a time when software developers were akin to craftsmen. It was a more romantic era, where you would get a program like HyperCard or Visual Basic, retreat to your office with a few books, and create software. It was a time when relationships with clients were direct and face-to-face, often resulting in lasting friendships. I fondly remember my youth and adolescence in the 80s in Spainthe arrival of the first Commodores and ZX Spectrums, rushing to the newsstand to buy my favorite computer magazine, and typing the codes from its pages into the computer. In the early 90s, I detected a bug when installing Microsoft Office alongside Corel Draw on Windows 95. I called Microsoft, and two weeks later, I received a diskette with a patch that resolved the issue. Now, at 52, I've been in the IT and software business for so long that I can hardly remember a time before it. I've lived through the explosion of 8-bit computers, the advent of the IBM XT and early Apple models, the rise of object-oriented programming, LAN networks with UNIX and Novell, the Internet, and the web. Yet, I struggle to adapt to the current software development paradigm: software that constantly calls home to the manufacturer, licensing fees for every program you develop, incessant updates that break everything, and absurd development speeds. I long to return to the joyful 80s and remain there perpetually. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/24/24 16:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode wrote: > Ive used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize Im the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. Im not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as its usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or dont work in the gear. Ive had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and its a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my clients environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks Im on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. Im sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons Im sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt Ill do much if any programming in retirement now, Ive had enough after over the last 5 decades, its now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand thats where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, its not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and dont need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From james at thehales.id.au Wed Jul 24 20:52:13 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James At The Hales) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:52:13 +1000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. Can someone provide a link to this video? I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. James From alex at tweedly.net Wed Jul 24 22:44:28 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 03:44:28 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Jul 2024, at 01:53, James At The Hales via use-livecode wrote: > > Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. > Can someone provide a link to this video? > I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) > > Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. > > Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. > > While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. > > James > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 00:08:21 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:08:21 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - LiveCode Addons Message-ID: Do we need to make application payments for LiveCode Addons? Hopefully no - Addons work on LC Classic too, so tracking doesn't seem plausible to me. If Addons even count as 'Apps'. Nor is paying both 'Internal' and 'for Sale' affordable for an LiveCode consultant who does LC work and makes Addons. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Jul 25 00:21:14 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:21:14 -0400 Subject: Websockets RFC 6455 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I fed it the livecode reference manual ... i had a pdf of it, not sure where to find that now. Also the builder documentation from here https://livecode.com/apidocs/docs/guide.html#livecode-builder-language-reference I think I might have missed the top section of builder related guides. and the httpd library. I also instructed it on how quotes work in livecode and to use & quote instead of escaping a quotation mark. (because I noticed that it gets that wrong, and so when I notice certain things, I then instruct on how to not make that mistake) Cheers Mike, I hope that help On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:04 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > what did you send to chatgpt to generate the LC expert model? > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:46 AM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > > > > I also asked it to check over each answer before i accepted it. > > so it is essentially 2-shot instead of the usual 1. > > The reason I added the script for httpd is so that it would not need to > > figure out correct syntax for socket connections, by having examples of > the > > correct syntax. > > Yes, I supplied the RFC instead of referencing it (This is for Calude > > "projects' feature, which is similar to OpenAIs GPT creation, where you > can > > also include files as part of knowledge base.) > > > > I think ChatGPT would have done OK on this, but I think Claude opus is a > > little better in this regard. > > > > See if you have better luck generating livecode with this > > > > https://chatgpt.com/g/g-AuN0YeBOr-livecode-expert-gpt > > > > Thanks, > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 8:29 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > so, for you, the trick was: > > > * claude (opus) > > > * supply some lc source code in a similar universe (curious why you did > > > that) > > > * supply the rfc, not just referencing the rfc > > > anything else? > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 7:31 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > > > > I describe how I did it on the GitHub page. I find all llms work > better > > > > when they have a starting point if you ask them just to start from > > > nothing > > > > the performance will be significantly worse. > > > > > > > > Examples of correct responses are key so in this case I provided the > > > source > > > > code for the httpd library for livecode. I also provided the specs > for > > > the > > > > standard. > > > > > > > > And it was Claude opus. I'll get the client code in there soon thanks > > for > > > > letting me know about that ...duh! 😉 I would have found out I guess > > > when I > > > > got to testing it > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 10:48 a.m. Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > i'd like to learn more about how you did this. > > > > > i have had terrible luck getting any of the LLM's to generate > > > reasonable > > > > LC > > > > > code (including multiple attempts on this very topic). > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > > and did a little diving. > > > And God said, "This is good." > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 00:24:49 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 00:24:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - access to LC Classic IDEs Message-ID: <362779b5-f551-4e4b-a420-bfce5af67f82@pair.com> If you move an existing LC subscription over to Create... Do you lose access to the bona fide LiveCode Classic IDEs for 6.7, 9, and 10? And the licensing terms thereof for new app builds created with them? Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From james at thehales.id.au Thu Jul 25 02:37:01 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James Hale) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:37:01 +1000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <7F51E3AD-1753-4763-B957-7DE8AB9896C4@thehales.id.au> A bit more here (I’m in Oz) $685 at today’s rate. Just under my fortnightly age pension. And for a product that is still to be released! Still has bits that don’t work and who knows what the documentation will be like, if it even exists yet. Paying for things still to come is getting old (especially with the track record of the company.) > On 25 Jul 2024, at 12:44 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > James ------------------------ Mob: 0408 206 883 From panos.merakos at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:12:24 2024 From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:12:24 +0300 Subject: [[ ANN ]] Release 10.0.0 RC-1 Message-ID: Dear list members, We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 10.0.0 RC-1. LiveCode 10.0.0 RC-1 comes with 11 bugfixes since the previous DP release, and also includes the bugfixes of LiveCode 9.6.13 RC-1, including support for building against API 34 on Android. You can find more details on the bugfixes and improvements of this new release here: https://livecode.com/livecode-10-rc-1-google-play-store-and-cef-updates-2/ You can find the release in your LiveCode account area or get it via the automatic updater. Enjoy! Kind regards The LiveCode Team -- From smk at anvic.net Thu Jul 25 03:33:21 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:33:21 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Hi Jeff, When I was working my use cases would have run into similar issues as you describe. Most of my applications were short lived and were used by either defence contractors or the military themselves. If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. I suspect that if I used Livecode Create today I would end up having to prove that it was not contacting any remote servers so much so that I doubt that even being accepted as a "special case" by RunRev would cut it with the military security services. Even if the application were allowed then the licensing is complex, for example I was once paid to support the Ten Tors race by designing and writing a database front end to a PostGre database of competitors which was designed to track team members during the two day event. The event is run by the UK Army and the competitors are all teenagers i.e. children. The event is managed from an army camp on Dartmoor where there is no internet. The database front end was installed on something like fifteen computers situated in departments dotted around the camp such as transport and the medical centre. Each department had personal accessing the database as and when they needed to.These people were working shifts over the time of the event. Each department tended to use a single login so I have no idea how the number of users could be tracked. Also the security and privacy issues were massive and there is no way that software that contacted or attempted to contact the cloud would have be allowed. While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. I have read and reread the licensing terms along with the updated FAQs but I still have no idea how the example above would have been charged if written in LC Create today. For example my application used a database library, written in Livecode Script and licensed from Andrea Garcia. Does the use of third party libraries cause additional licensing issues? Like you I think now is time to find other hobbies; the Proxxon range of mini tools are interesting and don't have the same licensing issues. best wishes Simon > On 24 Jul 2024, at 21:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode wrote: > > I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:53:40 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:53:40 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> <55869369-93D3-4CBB-9414-D727EA38F420@laposte.net> Message-ID: <2AAC7E44-556E-4687-9F5B-1736A3324CD2@livecode.com> Access to Classic and older builds continues to be included in the Create license. If you move then either we or you can cancel your existing subscription. Existing plugins will continue to run in Classic mode. Some of them may already run in Create, it depends on how tightly they are tied into the IDE. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things Hello, A few questions : If I take out a licence for the new software, what happens to the current subscription? Is it automatically cancelled? According to the FAQ, you can continue to work ‘the old way’ until the new interface is finalised. Is Livecode 10 actually included in the new package? Or is it a new software that will offer a few new features like automatic backup and AI? Will current plug-ins such as Datagrid helper be able to be used with the new software (at least in ‘classic’ mode)? Thanks. Ludovic _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:54:07 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:54:07 +0100 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> Happy to read such an email. You have my email address. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 20:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is constructive, and not hold back. Thank you in advance. On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > able to get online. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > wrote: > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, what > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > firewall other security method)? > > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 03:57:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:57:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A1BC64D-CE5E-42D0-B104-CD30C3FBF427@livecode.com> I don't think this is going to be too difficult. Might just be easier to license the machines this is on rather than the number of people. If that is even necessary, as volunteers do not count. As I've said in previous replies, phone home is not a requirement. If you drop us a line in support we can work out an exact quote for you. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 24/07/2024, 21:04, "use-livecode on behalf of Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. Jeff _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:27:35 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:27:35 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F068F83-0EE1-4DBF-87C2-CB5CD398BCBE@livecode.com> We're going to tweak this policy a bit after feedback. Stay tuned for an email. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 01:52, "use-livecode on behalf of James At The Hales via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. Can someone provide a link to this video? I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:28:23 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:28:23 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Yes, the price for a hobbyist using multiple platforms is lower now. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 03:44, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Jul 2024, at 01:53, James At The Hales via use-livecode > wrote: > > Mention was made to a video by Kevin regarding those with lifetime licenses and how it will work for them. > Can someone provide a link to this video? > I skimmed through the videos in the future page but couldn’t find anything (I really prefer to read rather than sit through a video.) > > Having purchased a lifetime commercial then upgrading it to business this news is like getting a doctor’s report informing me of a terminal prognosis. > > Like some of the other members on this list I am a hobbyist programer that derives no income from the apps I create. > > While I can understand where LC is going, it doesn’t seem like I will be able to tag along past 2027. So sad. > > James > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:28:34 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:28:34 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - LiveCode Addons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 05:08, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Do we need to make application payments for LiveCode Addons? Hopefully no - Addons work on LC Classic too, so tracking doesn't seem plausible to me. If Addons even count as 'Apps'. Nor is paying both 'Internal' and 'for Sale' affordable for an LiveCode consultant who does LC work and makes Addons. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:32:16 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:32:16 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> References: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Message-ID: <6D31482D-57F1-4EB8-8C68-67A2824D1970@livecode.com> As I've said several times now - we are not mandating tracking. You can count machines instead of users if you prefer - it's one or the other (not some mixture of both). Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 08:33, "use-livecode on behalf of Simon Knight via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi Jeff, When I was working my use cases would have run into similar issues as you describe. Most of my applications were short lived and were used by either defence contractors or the military themselves. If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. I suspect that if I used Livecode Create today I would end up having to prove that it was not contacting any remote servers so much so that I doubt that even being accepted as a "special case" by RunRev would cut it with the military security services. Even if the application were allowed then the licensing is complex, for example I was once paid to support the Ten Tors race by designing and writing a database front end to a PostGre database of competitors which was designed to track team members during the two day event. The event is run by the UK Army and the competitors are all teenagers i.e. children. The event is managed from an army camp on Dartmoor where there is no internet. The database front end was installed on something like fifteen computers situated in departments dotted around the camp such as transport and the medical centre. Each department had personal accessing the database as and when they needed to.These people were working shifts over the time of the event. Each department tended to use a single login so I have no idea how the number of users could be tracked. Also the security and privacy issues were massive and there is no way that software that contacted or attempted to contact the cloud would have be allowed. While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. I have read and reread the licensing terms along with the updated FAQs but I still have no idea how the example above would have been charged if written in LC Create today. For example my application used a database library, written in Livecode Script and licensed from Andrea Garcia. Does the use of third party libraries cause additional licensing issues? Like you I think now is time to find other hobbies; the Proxxon range of mini tools are interesting and don't have the same licensing issues. best wishes Simon > On 24 Jul 2024, at 21:04, Jeff Reynolds via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’ve used Livecode since the early days of MetaCard, primarily creating educational software, educational multimedia cds included with kids books and a ton of museum exhibits. For me the new create system and licensing looks pretty untenable, but I realize I’m the odd duck. > > The bulk of my time on these projects was actually content design and presentation as well as interface design and functionality. Programming time in live code was a small fraction of the build costs so savings for me for a more rapid development environment is minimal and would bring in minimal, if any increased profits. I’m not churning out an app a week, these are much more robust content driven programs where dealing with the nuances of content presentation is the 800lb gorilla and requires lots of small program tweaks as that design is refined during development to get it just right. Each interface is custom and art rich so auto interface builds adds no savings, probably only hassles keeping it out of things. > > Being educational also means super slim margins all around. Asking a royalty payment for just the software system licensing would be a no go with authors and publishers. If they did, they would say ok we just take that out of your end then and that would wipe out any profits for me as it would not really add anything much to my productivity. > > I have no idea of how this new license would work for my exhibit programs as well. Some are presentation systems that are used by a varying number of presenters at the institutions, some employees, some volunteers (is a volunteer a seat?). On the floor the app is used by tens of thousands of visitors. I also usually write a bunch of small apps for myself, the client, and the production team to help manage content development and organization on the project as well as migrate and format the content to go into the presentation/exhibit app. These apps are used very sporadically and sometimes by a number of people, sometimes only a few. All these organizations are usually paid admission, but are non profits. > > Most of my really hard core programming I doubt would be helped by the new system as that is usually controlling all sorts of devices thru different interfaces and talking to other computer systems to coordinate a show. The drivers and programming for this is usually a total dive into obscure command protocols and interfaces these devices have but are seldom used outside of with turnkey control equipment. I doubt Create is set up to do this sort of very odd programming as it’s usually a lot of fiddling and little or no decent documentation to follow and many times things are just missing or don’t work in the gear. I’ve had so many equipment features not be flushed out or broken in their code on release that due to being able to fiddle with livecode I could figure out workarounds that the manufacturers say should not work, but they do work and it’s a testament to the versatility of classic to fiddle away easily to make these workarounds. > > Cloud based or call home features built in to operate the desktop apps is also a mess in many of my client’s environments as their IT usually blocks outgoing stuff from the exhibit networks I’m on for a number of, sometimes unreasonable and unneeded, reasons. When I need it and can get access I almost always get calls 6 months later something is not working and I find a new tech has closed the door that I was given or new system upgrades blanked old settings and permissions. For this reason I just try and avoid them unless really necessary as it just usually breaks at some point and the exhibit going down is bad, bad, bad, everyone pissed at me even if not my fault. > > So I have no idea of how the museum exhibits would be covered under the new licensing. I’m sure I would get a lot of pushback to get them to pay for seat subscriptions and if they did they would make me do it and again take it out of my end without any really real benefit for me and thus lower profits and paperwork hassles. Would it be a for sale situation where I only have one sale and pay a royalty on the coding portion of the contract (a lot of my contract costs are for design stuff not requiring coding)? > > Fortunately for a number of reasons I’m sliding into retirement here so the last bits will be fine in classic and installed systems fine and I doubt I’ll do much if any programming in retirement now, I’ve had enough after over the last 5 decades, it’s now more fun playing with my table saw and model trains. Sad to see things go down this road, but I understand that’s where the money is for Livecode to keep in business. I just hope there is some category created for the oddballs like me to stay with create in the future if they want to. But I doubt the Create system would work to develop the multimedia rich applications I do anyway, it’s not a real app or widget (although it would probably be useful for my little utility apps, but maybe not as they tend to be odd thing and don’t need to be pretty at all, just work!) and requires a lot of odd things done in odd ways sometimes. > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mark at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 05:41:42 2024 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:41:42 +0100 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> References: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> On 2024-07-23 14:23, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > Hi list, > > I have the following script : > > create image > put number of imgs into ni > put id of img ni into tid > set filename of img id tid to myFile > put imageData of img id tid into pimage > -- many lines for imagedata analysis > crop image id tid to rect trect > > I get this error : > crop: object is not an image That is a slightly misleading error... 'crop' does not operate on images which are referenced - i.e. use a filename To crop such an image, load the data into the image: set the text of img id tid to url ("binfile:" & myFile) Hope this helps. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From mark at rauterkus.com Thu Jul 25 07:17:22 2024 From: mark at rauterkus.com (mark at rauterkus.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 07:17:22 -0400 Subject: LiveCode and AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> Hi, The words "AI" were used once in the new future page. Radical omission? Seems like a major shift when contrasted to those infant days of Create. Wondering. Mark Rauterkus From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 08:22:45 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:22:45 +0100 Subject: LiveCode and AI In-Reply-To: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> References: <337bb316b446632011c31a153872c468@rauterkus.com> Message-ID: <955CA875-DC24-4267-A982-ED90485D4F57@livecode.com> Its still very much part of the picture. There is an AI assistant in the Script Editor already in DP 1. There will be additional AI capabilities for defining layouts and choosing actions as we progress. Its possible these may be after 1.0 depending on how progress continues on them. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 12:17, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Rauterkus via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hi, The words "AI" were used once in the new future page. Radical omission? Seems like a major shift when contrasted to those infant days of Create. Wondering. Mark Rauterkus _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Thu Jul 25 08:47:11 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:47:11 -0400 Subject: crop image In-Reply-To: <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> References: <358d30706a041a78d40b325a0e1df7e2@souslelogo.com> <0703643983c73eea11d30af0886524ba@livecode.com> Message-ID: <2ec457e9ca6463ddfe885e5a924b127e@souslelogo.com> Hi Mark, Yes, it helped a lot. Many thanks. jbv Le 2024-07-25 05:41, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode a crit : > On 2024-07-23 14:23, jbv via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi list, >> >> I have the following script : >> >> create image >> put number of imgs into ni >> put id of img ni into tid >> set filename of img id tid to myFile >> put imageData of img id tid into pimage >> -- many lines for imagedata analysis >> crop image id tid to rect trect >> >> I get this error : >> crop: object is not an image > > That is a slightly misleading error... > > 'crop' does not operate on images which are referenced - i.e. use a > filename > > To crop such an image, load the data into the image: > set the text of img id tid to url ("binfile:" & myFile) > > Hope this helps. > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. From livfoss at mac.com Thu Jul 25 10:30:15 2024 From: livfoss at mac.com (Graham Samuel) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:30:15 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> References: <8A6FF8A7-2AF0-454A-993D-9CD56AB0333C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. Best Graham > On 24 Jul 2024, at 17:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Thanks for the link. > I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. > > > So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. > > > Best, > Bill > > > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Jul 25 10:39:41 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:39:41 -0400 Subject: Create Question... In-Reply-To: <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> References: <2ED3ECB9-CB4F-4D4E-A8FE-7687D542C984@m-r-d.de> <1AB0A33A-2D93-4637-BE09-48CA3C79CC4F@livecode.com> <0B30E616-F7F6-490D-8A97-744A67508F2E@livecode.com> Message-ID: Thank you Kevin I will compile my thoughts, but also make it succinct. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 3:54 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Happy to read such an email. You have my email address. Thanks. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 20:58, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Kevin, > > > If I write you an email do you promise to read every single word? > I want to take this opportunity to say everything there is to say, that is > constructive, and not hold back. > > > Thank you in advance. > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:55 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > They will call home unless we agree otherwise (which is an option, as > > mentioned in the FAQ). However the apps will not be blocked loading if > > there is no connection, they will update the tracking next time they are > > able to get online. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 24/07/2024, 19:27, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Friedman via > > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com>> on behalf of > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>>> > > wrote: > > > > > > Do apps created with the new LC platform call home at anytime? If so, > what > > happens if the app is launched off line or the request is blocked (by a > > firewall other security method)? > > > > > > -Dan > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 11:17:56 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:17:56 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking Hell In-Reply-To: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> References: <800CADA0-CF6D-4E94-B955-6ECF0BF809E2@anvic.net> Message-ID: Simon: > If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" > I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. Exactly! It's a nightmare for many clients. > While I'm sure Livecode will say contact us and we will sort > something out, the fact is that having to do so just adds > additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. Absolutely! Huge annoyance, and more busywork approvals per project is a no-go. Kevin: > As I've said several times now - we are not mandating tracking. See above, and your FAQ! Needs a very clear answer ... and a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 11:26:51 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:26:51 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > Sent from my iPhone > From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 11:30:22 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:30:22 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? Bob S > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 11:51:39 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:51:39 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? Message-ID: The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." All unnecessary! A simple oversight: We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From prothero at ucsb.edu Thu Jul 25 12:08:36 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:08:36 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, Just checking.. I am a hobbyist, no income is made on my apps. But if I want to make an app that my wife or friend might use, I need to add seats for them? Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 12:12:04 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:12:04 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <736FC788-E875-4AD8-9FA0-D1D0DB7090F5@livecode.com> No. They are not commercial users - your company does not employ them, nor are they customers. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 17:08, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, Just checking.. I am a hobbyist, no income is made on my apps. But if I want to make an app that my wife or friend might use, I need to add seats for them? Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode > wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Jul 25 12:13:19 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:13:19 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> Data hosting is already optional in a "standard way" - you don't have to actually use it! You can still build your app, connect to your own database (e.g. MySQL) hosted on your own server, build a standalone or a web app and distribute it yourself. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 16:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." All unnecessary! A simple oversight: We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Jul 25 12:15:05 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:15:05 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> Head of nail hit perfectly. Thanks, Curry. Concise as ever. Sean Cole > On 25 Jul 2024, at 16:51, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > The new LC licensing is already sending a toxic message: > > "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. > > Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. > > DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." > > All unnecessary! A simple oversight: > > We need a STANDARD easy way to choose LC's data hosting or not. > > And a few other tweaks. Then everyone wins! > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Thu Jul 25 12:15:50 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:15:50 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: i'm coming to this conversation, late, because i'm spending very little time coding, and most of my time managing. if i understand the pricing correctly, LC wants to charge $440/year for each mobile device that is running an app that we wrote (we don't have any publicly available apps, so the 5%, aka the sales commission, wouldn't apply). so, for the app that we use on kiosks in our plant, and have messed around with letting employees put on their own phones, we're talking about somewhere around $7,000 (16 devices) for our internal app, and another $20-25k for our customers' apps. i hope that i'm wrong about that. if i'm not, lc just entered the realm of uncompetitive for building and running these mobile apps. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it > correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would > be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal > users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding > is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a “seat” as well > as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at present including > myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company > does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make > generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 > standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I > do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > > > > I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there > was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > > > > btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re > incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build > and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer > seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less > than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about > buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The > expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at > the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know > how that will be calculated. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 12:27:21 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:27:21 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> References: <7EF2CC47-0F9C-472C-9978-EBDF0D0F7DD9@livecode.com> Message-ID: <86b3f269-5a1b-40d9-9cbf-a415b9409e95@pair.com> Kevin: > Data hosting is already optional in a "standard way" - > you don't have to actually use it! Ahem - and not PAY for it when not used! LOL. Perhaps more than just data hosting, but similar problems.... Again, I'm already seeing and hearing: "Many end users? Don't use Livecode Create. $$$. Privacy or Security concerns? Don't use Livecode Create. Backend requirements? Don't use Livecode Create. Hate busywork/paperwork? Don't use Livecode Create. DIY type or On a budget? Tough call." Toxic message to keep sending! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 12:29:43 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:29:43 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - data hosting the hard way? In-Reply-To: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> References: <8009E58B-3A9C-4112-8588-FD97FBB8150D@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: <5dabf64d-4567-424e-998d-c47282f3ee08@pair.com> Sean: > Head of nail hit perfectly. Thanks, Curry. Concise as ever. Thanks Sean! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From prothero at ucsb.edu Thu Jul 25 12:30:50 2024 From: prothero at ucsb.edu (William Prothero) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:30:50 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> Message-ID: <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > >> On 24 Jul 2024, at 17:53, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Free apps remain free. Just buy one seat of either Native/Cloud or Universal depending on what platforms you want to deploy to. In your scenario, if you happen to be doing multiple platform development / deployment, it is cheaper. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 24/07/2024, 17:46, "use-livecode on behalf of William Prothero via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> >> Thanks for the link. >> I have used livecode for years and since retiring, I only create educational, public service apps that I give away, or personal use apps that I use to manage my own needs. In the "Buy Create" page, I don't see any choice that reflects my own situation. Recently, I've spent a lot of time with WordPress, building web sites to support groups that interest me. I'm interested in the practicality of using livecode for websites, but the limitations of the past were more than I could accept. >> >> >> So, is there still a place in the livecode community for a retired innovator with no commercial interests? I'm a hobbyist. >> >> >> Best, >> Bill >> >> >> William A. Prothero, PhD >> Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science >> University of California, Santa Barbara > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 12:55:38 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:55:38 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> Message-ID: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. Bill William A. Prothero, PhD Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science University of California, Santa Barbara On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. Best Graham From gagsoft at iafrica.com Thu Jul 25 13:01:29 2024 From: gagsoft at iafrica.com (Peter Gagiano) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 19:01:29 +0200 (SAST) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1967632226.19736773.1721926889972.JavaMail.zimbra@iafrica.com> Hi Heather. I do not know if Kevin forwarded this to you. I have been on LiveCode Indy - Price Lock and I want to cross over to the new Create Platform. Furthermore, my subscription is up for renewal in 6 Days. 1. Should I cancel my subscription via cleverbridge.com? 2. Does the “Per app user” in “app developer / per month billed annually” mean that for each app developer and used by a client? My apologies, (English is not my first language). 3. Is there a monthly billing cycle option? 4. If so can I start the new billing cycle on the first of August due on the first of each month? Best regards, Peter From curry at pair.com Thu Jul 25 13:07:41 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:07:41 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From martyknappster at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 14:06:46 2024 From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:06:46 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> I have a commercial app and we deal with people “sharing” the software with others. Is there a way to account for this? Let’s say one legit customer shares the software with 2 others and each of those people share with 2 others. Extrapolate that over time and that number could grow quite large. Will I be charged for all those illegitimate users? Marty Knapp > On Jul 25, 2024, at 10:07 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! > > Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Jul 25 14:47:40 2024 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:47:40 -0400 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> References: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <6203CDBC-4BA2-49D7-B9C7-DE699B88D446@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004f01dadec3$243e42a0$6cbac7e0$@net> I guess that we will have to put in licensing code to prevent that by tying a specific install to one computer. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Marty Knapp via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2024 2:07 PM To: Use Livecode Cc: Marty Knapp Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something I have a commercial app and we deal with people “sharing” the software with others. Is there a way to account for this? Let’s say one legit customer shares the software with 2 others and each of those people share with 2 others. Extrapolate that over time and that number could grow quite large. Will I be charged for all those illegitimate users? Marty Knapp > On Jul 25, 2024, at 10:07 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > Bob - That's a great post. I hope LC is listening! > > Big problems for many with this new LC licensing. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Jul 25 14:49:02 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 19:49:02 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - Co-development use case Message-ID: Hi Kevin or any one else in the know As you may know, I am kind of tied perpetually to Porrima who still has a valid LC9 subscription (afaik) and, while I don't subscribe anymore since my company's (& health's) demise, I still offer cleanup and updates for bits I developed on their commercial software, built in LC5.0.2 (and still works just fine, with a little TLS(ecurity) hack). This, I know, will not be affected by LC Create. I have two use-case questions: My first question is based on the case that if I were to develop on the LC9/LC10/Create versions of their software (which is needed to comply with various other security needs), do I ONLY pay for MY seat to develop my bits for them and THEY pay for both THEIR seats as required PLUS each end 'user' of their software which they build from their seat? As a quick follow-up to this, if the payment for end-users is never more than 5% of the app revenue, and only applies to revenue 'directly' generated by the app *if we use Create* to build apps for sale to the 'public' (by which I assume you mean any customer, business or public), not LC9 or 10, what actual percentage are we looking at if we only sell to one or two customers (small to medium businesses) who have sometimes just two or three actual users? Transparently, without going into private messages and conversations, what realistically are people (your customers) looking at? Cards on the table. The second is based on the scenario that those aforementioned customers occasionally have up to 20 or 30 people using the software during busy seasons. Do Porrima have to keep track and account for those fluctuations? Do other LC developers have to keep track of how many buyers of their software are still using it (by some kind of subscription or sign in method) and then work out what percentage they owe to you. And then, if they are on a free trial before getting a paid version, how does your 'phone home' system that people have been querying make allowance for those? This could get very complicated very quickly, especially for the small business just trying to get by but getting kicked out of business by yet another "buy-in to our Kickstarter (or else) before getting a finished product (maybe ever)" 'upgrade'. I'm trying to make this sound ok but I am getting the sick taste of Deja vu. I'm mentally much better now but this has been a bit of a trigger for me and, as I'm kinda forced into this messed up mess, I'm not entirely ok. Is it going to be, like LC10, another 4-6 years before LC Create becomes an RTM/GA/GR/GM/Stable Production release? Heck to that if that's the case. Sorry it's long but I think it's obvious why. Regards to all. Sean Cole Owner of Pi Digital Productions Ltd for 20 years before it's sad and untimely death (some might say murder ;)). From irog at mac.com Thu Jul 25 16:16:04 2024 From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:16:04 -0700 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Thanks for voicing my thoughts exactly, Bob! Roger > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:55 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. > > I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. > > Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. > > Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! > > All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! > > So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. > Bill > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Thu Jul 25 19:29:53 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:29:53 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. The following is from the FAQs. "If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." So that is not a problem I would say. But the tools I've created for free for family members and colleagues to use in their job would be a big problem if I would have to upgrade them after 2027. There is for example a command line tool with only 199 lines of code, which is used by 10 people. They do not call it directly, they even do not know that it is executed on their machine, but the ERP calls it under their Windows user account with some parameters every time the users send e-mails to a customer with documents attached from the ERP. The licensing alone for this small tool would cost for 1 Dev and 10 Users 4356 Euro per year. That is roundabout twice the annual maintenance fees for the ERP. The other thing is the "phone home". If for example a command line tool which shall be executed in "realtime" first has to phone home before it does for what it was created, I am wondering if this is not decreasing the performance. Kevin explained already, that it will be possible to create also apps that do not phone home, but this has to be discussed with LC Ltd. separately for each app. In my day job I am working as an IT-Security- and Data-Protection-Officer. So this Phone Home "feature" gives me in general a stomachache. Kevin already confirmed that LC Create/Native will comply GDRP. That's of course reassuring to know, but detailed information is needed about what data exactly is stored where and how. And also about how secure the data is. The technical organisational measures should contain all this information. I will wait and see what the future really brings. 3 years is a long time and yet somehow it isn't. My main goal is to stay and continue developing with Livecode (classic,Create,Native) even after 2027. But I will start looking for an commercial alternative that allows to deploy at least to Mac,Win,Linux. The mobile platforms and Web would be fine, but are not so important for me. Matthias > Am 25.07.2024 um 18:55 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : > > It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. > > I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. > > Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. > > Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! > > All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! > > So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 9:30 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > I second Graham's comment about apple's requirements for getting an app to work on the iphone are a huge pita. > Bill > William A. Prothero, PhD > Prof Emeritus, Dept of Earth Science > University of California, Santa Barbara > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:31 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode > wrote: > > I’m in roughly the same position as Bill. Long ago I wrote Livecode apps for sale, but in the last several years I’ve just written a few personal apps, and have more or less stopped work, due mostly to old age. However I don’t like to say I’ve entirely given up as a hobbyist, and I was thinking of revisiting an app idea I had at the time of the pandemic - so I’m glad of Kevin’s reply. > > At present I’m thinking about iOS apps and wonder how much help from Create I will get for deployment - obeying all of Apple’s rules for the publication of an app (even a free one) into the public space. For me this part of app development proved far more of a PITA than the actual coding, and I know I will always need all the help I can get on this aspect. Maybe I missed it, but I am not clear what Create will offer. > > My other use of Livecode scripting has been to use it as “IYSWIM” (“if you see what I mean”) modelling tool, where I get the logic straight before plunging into a relatively hostile coding environment (think the Apple Watch, which will never be covered by Livecode in any form). As far as I can see, I will be able to go on using versions of Classic for this, even if the become outdated over time. I’m glad about this. > > Best > > Graham > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Jul 25 19:46:09 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 23:46:09 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. From alex at tweedly.net Thu Jul 25 20:02:14 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:02:14 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: On 26/07/2024 00:46, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. > > Bob S Commercial ?  I guess so. But I don't see that it fits the criteria for "Internal apps"; that category is for apps that have been developed by a company, paying either an employee or contractor to develop it. In your case, you did the app in your own time, using your own LC license. You're not employed to do coding, and didn't get paid for any coding you did. The app, and any associated IP, belongs to you - not to any company. It therefore qualifies as an "app for sale". So put the app on an AppStore (or sell it directly), and pay the 5% of revenue plus one developer seat. Alex. > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) > > I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. > Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. > Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) > > The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Thu Jul 25 20:28:58 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 20:28:58 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> Message-ID: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Hello, I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. Thank you for your assistance. On 7/25/24 11:30, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal users within your company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a seat as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 seats at present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the field. > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I do not make any money from the app?? > > > Bob S > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Its the one signposted as something like growing the community. >> >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there was info about lifetime license holders in a video. >> >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think youre incorrect about there being no place for us in LCs future. We can build and distribute our non-ncome-producing apps by getting a single developer seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we dont yet know how that will be calculated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From james at thehales.id.au Thu Jul 25 20:37:06 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James At The Hales) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:37:06 +1000 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: Perhaps it would help if there was a definition of a seat, re licensing. There seems to be confusion in parts. Making an app and selling it is fine, 5% of sale price per sale. Crystal clear. But, making an app and distributing it for free (via app store of whatever) or within a company is muddled. Some of Kevin’s replies seem to point to a cost for the distributed app equivalent to a “seat”. This doesn’t make sense to me unless the distributed app is using LC resources (e.g web systems or AI). I mean if the app is standalone (not using LC services) what does it matter if I give it freely to my friends or work colleagues? It is still a free app (from their point of view.) Surely a “seat” refers to developers accessing the Create IDE, to make apps. Not users of the app? So shouldn’t a distinction be made between “developer seats” and client/user seats that do or not access LC services? James From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Thu Jul 25 22:45:39 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 02:45:39 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Presumably(?) being in an educational setting means the whole internal apps licensing model doesn’t apply but I agree with James that it doesn’t seem quite equitableas it is currently designed and that there is a case for differentiating between developers and users. By way of comparison, a number of people in my work group use Trello and those users that need to create boards and edit board pay, but those who just need to access them don’t. What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them? Terry From: use-livecode on behalf of James At The Hales via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 10:38 AM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: James At The Hales Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something Perhaps it would help if there was a definition of a seat, re licensing. There seems to be confusion in parts. Making an app and selling it is fine, 5% of sale price per sale. Crystal clear. But, making an app and distributing it for free (via app store of whatever) or within a company is muddled. Some of Kevin’s replies seem to point to a cost for the distributed app equivalent to a “seat”. This doesn’t make sense to me unless the distributed app is using LC resources (e.g web systems or AI). I mean if the app is standalone (not using LC services) what does it matter if I give it freely to my friends or work colleagues? It is still a free app (from their point of view.) Surely a “seat” refers to developers accessing the Create IDE, to make apps. Not users of the app? So shouldn’t a distinction be made between “developer seats” and client/user seats that do or not access LC services? James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 02:42:19 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 02:42:19 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar Message-ID: Hi list, I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final layout when the loop is over. However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed something, it seems limited to players. Thank you in advance. jbv From james at thehales.id.au Fri Jul 26 02:53:41 2024 From: james at thehales.id.au (James Hale) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 16:53:41 +1000 Subject: I seem to have missed something Message-ID: Terry asked: "What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them?” You misunderstand me Terry, I think it is perfectly clear to count the use of a stack as a seat given it must use the LC IDE (either desktop or Web.) My confusion is in regard to compiled/standalone apps. The discussion so far seems to count them in the "needing a seat" group if they are say distributed in a company etc. So, to clarify, does a “seat” mean the use of the IDE is required? Which is pretty much the current situation. OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? James From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 02:54:08 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 06:54:08 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar Hi list, I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final layout when the loop is over. However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed something, it seems limited to players. Thank you in advance. jbv _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 03:12:30 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 03:12:30 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Hello Terry, Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting unlock screen lock screen within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but to no avail. Thank you anyway for the idea. Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a crit : > How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that > over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy > over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the > loop is done? > > From: use-livecode on behalf of > jbv via use-livecode > Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com > Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 03:40:44 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 07:40:44 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: I was thinking you would omit the lock screen altogether. Or if things are too slow without it can you move to a different card while all that other stuff is happening? From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 5:13 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com Subject: Re: Lockscreen and progress bar Hello Terry, Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting unlock screen lock screen within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but to no avail. Thank you anyway for the idea. Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : > How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that > over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy > over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the > loop is done? > > From: use-livecode on behalf of > jbv via use-livecode > Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com > Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Fri Jul 26 03:50:40 2024 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 07:50:40 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I get what you are saying James, I’m just suggesting that there could be a lower cost version of create for ‘non-developer’ seats. That version doesn’t have access to the IDE and it’s only purpose run stacks or ‘apps’ that are produced by the full version of create. You would still need the same number of seats but at a more reasonable cost. Otherwise, I’m kinda struggling to see why you might choose LiveCode over other less constrained tools in an in-house commercial setting. Regards, Terry From: use-livecode on behalf of James Hale via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:55 PM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: James Hale Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something Terry asked: "What about a lower cost ‘player’ application that can run internal stacks/apps but not create or modify them?” You misunderstand me Terry, I think it is perfectly clear to count the use of a stack as a seat given it must use the LC IDE (either desktop or Web.) My confusion is in regard to compiled/standalone apps. The discussion so far seems to count them in the "needing a seat" group if they are say distributed in a company etc. So, to clarify, does a “seat” mean the use of the IDE is required? Which is pretty much the current situation. OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? James _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From smk at anvic.net Fri Jul 26 03:56:58 2024 From: smk at anvic.net (Simon Knight) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 08:56:58 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <380FDA24-2A02-4686-B70B-66D71D053C2F@anvic.net> James, I think it means : > On 26 Jul 2024, at 07:53, James Hale via use-livecode wrote: > > OR does a “seat” mean anyone using the app created by LC? From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 05:16:04 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Colin Kelly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 09:16:04 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Like many here, I use LC to build utility apps to simplify some of the workflows in my workplace, most are raw and dirty but do the job I develop them for. I could create all of these using Python or the like but choose LC due to its simplicity and self-documenting nature as I don’t have to revisit the code often. One of LC strengths is the ease of looking at old code and been able to understand what’s going on. To-date we have many of these apps/applets running in my workplace with a growing workforce of around 180+/- employees. I find the new licensing modal just a tad hard to swallow, my £799 annual licensing fee is going to jump to circa £90k annually on the new licensing system, unless I’ve completely misunderstood the new licensing modal! I’m sure LC would offer to heavily discount this for me but I’m sure it’s not going to be anywhere near my usual £799/year! I’ve invested my own money into LC, supporting every kick-starter campaign, lifetime licensing campaign and paying for bolt-ons to help support the LC product through its various DP/RC stages, and to-date, not seen any really useful return on my investments! so feeling a little disappointed and let down with this latest change of direction! Needless to say, I won’t be presenting the new figures to my employers in my annual budget meeting as I would be laughed out of the room…. In the words of the Dragons Den; ……I’m out! Col. From: use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 00:47 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Bob Sneidar Subject: Re: I seem to have missed something But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 4:29 PM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: First of all, it's 3 years not 2. ;) I am in the same boat regarding the utility apps to make life and jobs of family members and colleagues easier. Over the years I've created plenty of them and I am sure some of them need to be maintained in the future. Sometimes I even cannot remember an app when people tell me that they still use it. ;) The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Fri Jul 26 05:42:02 2024 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:42:02 +0100 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> Sent from my iPhone > On 26 Jul 2024, at 08:13, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello Terry, > > Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders > the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. > I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting > unlock screen > lock screen > within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but > to no avail. Unlock screen Wait 0 millisecs with messages Lock screen I think 🤔 Alex > > Thank you anyway for the idea. > > Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : >> How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? >> From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode >> Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com >> Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar >> Hi list, >> I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, >> precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. >> On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and >> also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final >> layout when the loop is over. >> However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar >> and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. >> How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed >> something, it seems limited to players. >> Thank you in advance. >> jbv >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Fri Jul 26 06:00:28 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:00:28 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> > On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: > > The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 k From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Jul 26 06:13:32 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:13:32 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> Message-ID: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? If you read the FAQs then it should be clear. Here’s again the part about free apps. “ If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." Especially the 2nd last line should answer it. Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 26.07.2024 um 12:01 schrieb Keith Martin via use-livecode : > >  >> >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 06:38:37 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 06:38:37 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> Actually I forgot that I had a "lock screen" at the very beginning of my script. And successive "lock screen" cumulate. Therefore the following sequence doesn't update the screen layout : lock screen ...... lock screen ...... unlock screen lock screen Funny how I can get stalled with very basic things sometimes... From General.2018 at outlook.com Fri Jul 26 06:37:22 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:37:22 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> Message-ID: Free Software has no EULA, not Commercial. Freeware has EULA and can be Commercial. Example, software has no cost but has Commercial licence. > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:01, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: > >  >> >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. > > Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 06:45:25 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:45:25 +0100 Subject: The story so far Message-ID: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> Hi Folks, This has been a busy week and there has been a lot of discussion on here. Thank you to all of you who have contributed to the debate here on this list. I thought I'd post a quick summary of where our thinking is at so far. I obviously spoke to several dozen of you personally prior to making this change. We've now had the chance to speak to hundreds of you which has helped us to gain an even better understanding of our new model and the way forward. This is a big change and no matter how many people you speak to in advance, we expected to learn more after we went live. We are grateful for all the feedback we have had. The new entry price of $440 or $660, which is on average a reduction as it includes a lot more has been well received across most customer groups. It continues to allow hobbyists access to the platform too. The Application Payments model, for those of you creating apps to sell (or as freeware) has been well received. We've had very, very few objections to it and so I think we're pretty confident at this point that it's about as good as it can be. I'm proud of the way we've innovated here to allow small independent vendors to continue to use the platform in a way that most other low/no-code SaaS platforms haven't. We've had a little feedback on making the platform free for public high schools, which has been well received. After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. We still have a couple of outstanding questions about how our model applies to Server for a couple of use cases we didn't come across in our initial consultation and we'll work through those soon. The Internal apps model (for people building apps for use within their own organization) has gone over well in many cases. However I think there is perhaps a bit of a split between those who want to use the new Cloud hosting and data back end and those that don't want to use it, either because you have your own data back end or because you are creating smaller utilities that don't use data. Looking at the market as a whole and including new users, we've spoken to hundreds of people who do want to use the back end and the model and it is sitting pretty well for that group. For those of you that don't, my question is whether we have the volume discounting correct or whether we want to introduce a lower cost model at scale for that specific group. I'm not talking about changing the per-seat-for-commercial-end-users model, we're confident that's the right way forward. Our entire IP is in each standalone, and we have to scale with the value we create to have a successful business. We've learned that in our 20 years of history and the feedback this week has been ok on this point overall. I'm also not talking about changing costs for smaller numbers of seats. The question is whether we as a business want to also serve a segment without the Cloud hosting, at a better volume discount for higher seat numbers. This is a harder question than it looks, because so much of the benefit from the new platform comes from the new data back end. Giving new users a choice early in the process complicates their initial journey with us and potentially creates a confusing decision around one of the best new capabilities. It also has an impact on product engineering and the decisions we take there. On the other hand we want the platform to go on being practical for as many of you as possible. We appreciate your support over the years and this remains very important to us. There is a subset of you who are clearly not going to use the Cloud and for whom the new Internal model is presenting a challenge at scale. We will be reflecting on this question in the coming days. The other lesson from this week is that we need more text based content for those of you that don't want to consume information by video. We'll do some more worked examples on the mini-site next week in that form to help with that. Other than that, I would say this. If you only read this list you might be forgiven for thinking that the new pricing model hasn't been well received. While that’s certainly true in a number of cases (I'm sorry if that’s you!), the vast majority of responses (out of the many hundreds we have had now) are getting on board and generally the sentiment has been good. The initial feedback on the new Create builds from those of you that do now have access to it has also been good. I would ask if you've emailed in to please bear with us, we will get back to you as soon as we can. So overall we've taken an important step forward this week that will enable us to better serve our customers into the future and broadly it has been a success so far. We still have some questions to work on and we will continue to look at those. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:00:12 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:00:12 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Colin, I get that the new model is a disappointment and may not work for you. And I'm sorry about that. We are still considering the question you raised about using the platform alongside Power Apps and whether or not there should be any changes to the model at scale for those not using our data back end. Making changes is hard. We have to make changes in order to have a solid future, there is no other option for us. While I appreciate your feedback and I appreciate you have reasons to be disappointed, as this is a public post I need to correct the record. The price you just posted for that number of users is wildly inaccurate (we did quote you the correct price when I met with you). Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:03:26 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:03:26 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions Message-ID: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> Folks, I'm happy to go on discussing the licensing model in general on here as needed, for example edge cases or things that aren’t clear in the model, as it helps us to hone it. But at this point if you have individual questions about the costs for you under the new model, please email them to support and we can give you an accurate quote and talk you through your options. Otherwise we are going to be going over the same territory here on the list for some time to come! We’ll build out the information pages some more worked examples next week too. Thanks. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things From thatkeith at mac.com Fri Jul 26 07:06:36 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:06:36 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) k From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:42:31 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:42:31 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <49B30B7A-3204-4B0C-8A6B-F81FC7DF2322@livecode.com> Hi Bob, Thanks for posting this. If you ask 10 LiveCode customers what is important to them, you'll get 10 different answers. As an obvious example, I expect that if you were to ask others on this list about mobile, many people would disagree that mobile is less important. I appreciate you don't believe you need some of the new features we are delivering now. That might be actually true. Or it might be that you just haven't had a chance to try them yet. Either way that's ok. Many, many customers do see what we are delivering in Create as the top priority. I also appreciate there are features with reasonably broad appeal that we would like to be delivering sooner. That's an important part of what is driving the change in business model. We are delivering a lot of value, but not capturing it, so moving too slowly for some. We subsidize LiveCode development from our profitable services arm and there are limits to how much we can do that. We simply have to change all that. I would very much like to deliver a consistently better service without running promotions or crowd funding or anything else, just using licensing revenue. There is another context to think about our Create project from too. One of the questions we talk about often internally is - does our platform have what it takes to attract new users at a healthy and sustainable rate? This is something that should be important to you and all our community. The fact is that it takes something very different to attract a new customer today compared to days gone by. We don't have the luxury of standing still. Along with the desire to create a better product for the majority of you who do want the new capabilities, this question strongly contributes to the direction we are taking with Create. Creating and maintaining a strong ecosystem around the platform is vital to us all. A dear friend and mentor of mine has a favourite saying "if you don't like change, you'll like irrelevance even less". So I appreciate the input, and I hope you can understand that it doesn't perhaps create a viable strategy for the platform as a whole. In terms of your own licensing question - either these are commercial apps being created for your company as an employee or you're creating them in your own time and own the IP. You may be able apply Application Payments to the latter case. If you want specific input into your exact circumstance, I'm going to ask you to contact support where we will be happy to help. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 25/07/2024, 17:55, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: It’s water under the bridge, but in retrospect I think the proper way for Livecode to have structured their business was to have 3 products: Livecode Desktop, Livecode Mobile and Livecode Web. Each product should have maintained their own revenue stream unbound and unburdened by the other two. As it is, any financial burden developing for Mobile or Web is shared by Desktop. If one fails, all fail. I also think that the Non-Commercial version we used to have (as much as I took advantage of it) was a bad idea. Give people something for free that they would otherwise have to pay for, guess what? They will use the free thing. Finally, I think that Livecode, much like Now Software of the past, overextended themselves. Now Software tried to develop a new product from the ground up and learned what all developers learn: It’s REALLY HARD to do. Livecode attempted to incorporate what I would consider to be niche technologies, so their resources have become much diluted. The native compiler project is dead I assume. Mobile is probably sucking resources from other things because it seems like every other week iOS or Android are making prior builds obsolete by their incessant changes. V10 has taken how many years to produce? Don’t get me started on Artificial Intelligence!! And I don’t NEED a no-code way to develop apps. I LIKE CODING!! All I ever wanted was to create utility apps to make my life and my job easier. That is it. I don’t need the bells and whistles, but I have been investing in those all these years just to keep desktop deveopment alive. Now I will not be able to afford developing for just the 3 internal users I have, and approaching my employer to incorporate my applipaction throughout the company is dead in the water. Thank GOD I didn’t already do so! So by whenever in 2027 this awesome party ends, I will likely bid farewell to you all and consider abandoning my development hobby completely. It feels like I have been given 2 years to live. Bob S From kevin at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:43:29 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:43:29 +0100 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> References: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> <73CB9B79-3D8B-4F02-90A9-B006D0DDA495@mac.com> Message-ID: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> Would it be better if it just said "Made with LiveCode"? Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 12:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Keith Martin via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: > > Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) k _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Fri Jul 26 07:56:06 2024 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:56:06 +0100 Subject: Concerning your licensing questions and contacting support Message-ID: <7C2D1F82-9515-4AC6-818D-F829D34A8E1C@livecode.com> Dear All, Just to add to what Kevin said in his email - if you have specific licensing questions about your particular position, please do email support. If you've already emailed support - thank you, you've done the right thing. Please be patient as we work our way through the large volume of mail received. We will get to you, just as soon as we can. I would ask, please don't resend your email if we haven't yet replied. This just makes the queue even longer and slower to get through. If you got the support autoreply, we got your ticket. Furthermore... please don't email my personal email instead of support at livecode.com. It will delay your answer rather than speeding it up and you do run the risk of it drowning altogether. I do my best to rescue items sent to my personal inbox and forward them to support, but due to the very large volume in that inbox, things can get missed when I'm very busy. Warmest regards to all, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Jul 26 08:26:16 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (Matthias Rebbe) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 14:26:16 +0200 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> References: <2D4F3C9F-E491-480F-83F9-5C8D1C81F9C7@livecode.com> Message-ID: You mean without “Non-Commercial Use only”? No, that would not be better. Why? Because the normal user would not read a license file when such is available. “Made with Livecode - Non-Comercial Use only” shows the user right away, that the app is for “private” use only. Von meinem iPad gesendet > Am 26.07.2024 um 13:43 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > Would it be better if it just said "Made with LiveCode"? > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 26/07/2024, 12:06, "use-livecode on behalf of Keith Martin via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:14, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. > > > Thanks for posting this. I'm happy to include some kind of 'made with' branding in something I make and give away but I feel uncomfortable telling people how they should or shouldn't use it. > > > The IP involved in everything that goes into a LiveCode stack or app is substantial, but it's not as if the framework can be repurposed! As analogies go the following is of course flawed so please forgive me, but it does feel a bit like Adobe wanting to restrict or charge for PDFs. (Or, back in the days of Flash, for SWF products.) > > > k > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From General.2018 at outlook.com Fri Jul 26 09:48:50 2024 From: General.2018 at outlook.com (General 2018) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 13:48:50 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: A Freeware app can have commercial use and bound via its EULA. Terms of use, copyright, disclaimers etc etc. Smart Televisions have freeware apps with the commercial profit only coming from the televisions sold. The freeware app has commercial purpose but does not generate income alone. definition :- “Commercial software is computer software that serves commercial purposes. It is created to make profit and can be either proprietary or free. The best example is Oracle. An authorized license is required to use the program, and the code is kept a secret. Thus, it cannot be distributed to third parties. At the same time, there are no restrictions in the package when it comes to features and the period of usage.” On 26 Jul 2024, at 11:53, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? If you read the FAQs then it should be clear. Here’s again the part about free apps. “ If you build and ship an app that is completely free, with no commercial benefit to you or to a client you build it for, then the end users of that app are free, you do not require a license for them. For example a free educational app used by students would fall into this category. You do still need to purchase a developer license for yourself. Free apps will display a LiveCode Create badge throughout the app, and will have “Made with LiveCode – Non Commercial Use Only” notices you are not permitted to disable. Educational apps will display an “Educational use only” badge in addition to these." Especially the 2nd last line should answer it. Von meinem iPad gesendet Am 26.07.2024 um 12:01 schrieb Keith Martin via use-livecode :  On 26 Jul 2024, at 10:17, Colin Kelly via use-livecode wrote: The new licenses allow to create free apps as long as they are not used commercially. Forgive the nit-picking, but my understanding was that the new licenses allow to create apps that are not offered commercially in any way. "Used commercially" isn't the same as made available commercially; one is about someone's end use, the other is about my distribution process. I couldn't determine if someone used a free app I made as part of a commercial project or purely for their personal hobby, nor should I (IMRarelyHO) even try! 😁 k _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 26 10:53:42 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 10:53:42 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: after the emails from kevin and heather, this morning, here's hoping we get a discussion of a more typical/traditional corporate app dev tier, because that's what lc is. it's not a db server. it's not an application server, it's a app dev tool, for building standalone, single-threaded, engined binaries. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 8:30 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading > the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in > New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several > apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: > With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a > license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not > work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a > new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > On 7/25/24 11:30, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > If they are internal apps in your company then you understand it > correctly. They are seats. So your cost for 3 (2 users plus yourself) would > be $1320 annually. Alex is referring to apps for sale, not to internal > users within your company. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > On 25/07/2024, 16:26, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If that is true then I misunderstand the licensing model. My > understanding is that every app I distribute for someone else to use is a > “seat” as well as me the developer, another seat. I have 3 “seats” at > present including myself, all are internal users to the company I work for, > but the company does not pay me to do this development. I wrote the > application to make generating forms easier for the IT technicians in the > field. > > > > > > Are you saying I can purchase one developer seat for $499, build 2 > standalone apps and not have to pay for the other two seats, as long as I > do not make any money from the app?? > > > > > > Bob S > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 7:44 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > >> > >> It’s the one signposted as something like “growing the community”. > >> > >> I too dislike videos, so avoided watching this until Kevin said there > was info about lifetime license holders in a video. > >> > >> btw, I am a hobbyist deriving no income from LC, and I think you’re > incorrect about there being no place for us in LC’s future. We can build > and distribute our non-íncome-producing apps by getting a single developer > seat ($449 per year); not a trivial amount but not much for a hobby (less > than membership at my local golf club or gym, even before I think about > buying clubs or trainers or replacing all the lost golf balls). The > expiration of the lifetime license will be compensated for by a discount at > the first license renewal (in December 2025??), though we don’t yet know > how that will be calculated. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:07:26 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:07:26 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. Bob S On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: Hello, I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. Thank you for your assistance. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:07:27 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:07:27 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: References: <83A53316-E07B-4DC8-B951-68DECAFD85DF@mac.com> <632C98C9-B068-4EAD-822B-B8E051DD5EA4@ucsb.edu> <5A989022-4B98-45C5-9C0B-79471C191321@iotecdigital.com> <83B6C2B9-1ACF-4C98-85C2-4C30ADB11FF6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <9CC69016-C756-48F5-B344-7B1B4747DF09@iotecdigital.com> According to the CEO of Livecode, my scenario DOES qualify as a commercial app, hence my consternation. I will have to pay 3 times what I currently pay now for a license just to maintain status quo, and expanding the number of users of my app is completely out of the question since I pay for the license myself. Bob S > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:02 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > > On 26/07/2024 00:46, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> But the primary app I developed IS commercial by their definition. >> >> Bob S > > Commercial ? I guess so. > > But I don't see that it fits the criteria for "Internal apps"; that category is for apps that have been developed by a company, paying either an employee or contractor to develop it. > > In your case, you did the app in your own time, using your own LC license. You're not employed to do coding, and didn't get paid for any coding you did. The app, and any associated IP, belongs to you - not to any company. It therefore qualifies as an "app for sale". > > So put the app on an AppStore (or sell it directly), and pay the 5% of revenue plus one developer seat. > > Alex. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:13:16 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:13:16 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96518804-F7AA-4F37-AB93-99850B6DA8FF@iotecdigital.com> The solution I came up with was a standalone that I could send messages to. I called it Spinner because I wanted to show a dialog that displayed a message and a spinning graphic while Livecode was processing handlers. I could send commands to show itself, hide itself, display a message and activate the graphic. A progress bar could have been added but I stopped using it for some reason. On MacOS I used Applescript to send commands, but you could use sockets just as easily. I think there are widgets now that will do what you want. My understanding is that widgets can be designed to run independent of Livecode’s single processing thread. Bob S > On Jul 25, 2024, at 11:42 PM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi list, > > I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, > precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. > On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and > also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final > layout when the loop is over. > However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar > and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. > > How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed > something, it seems limited to players. > > Thank you in advance. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:16:10 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:16:10 +0000 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Try wait 1 millisecond with messages then lock screen again. But I have run into this issue where even when I pause execution by some means the screen does not update. I find the whole process unreliable, and by the way when you lock the screen then do something with a datagrid, the screen gets unlocked in the process because the datagrid library for reasons unknown unlocks the screen for certain operations. Bob S > On Jul 26, 2024, at 12:12 AM, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello Terry, > > Yes I thought of that. The problem is that "lock screen" hinders > the progress bar to be updated while the loop is running. > I also tried to shortly "break" the lock screen by inserting > unlock screen > lock screen > within the loop, hoping that it would update the display, but > to no avail. > > Thank you anyway for the idea. > > Le 2024-07-26 02:54, Terry Judd via use-livecode a écrit : >> How about taking a screengrab just before you run the loop, place that over the top of the content that changes, layer the progress thingy over that and then delete the screengrab and hide the thingy when the loop is done? >> From: use-livecode on behalf of jbv via use-livecode >> Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 4:44 PM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: jbv at souslelogo.com >> Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar >> Hi list, >> I have a main loop that does a lot of things, like resizing images, >> precessing imagedata, creating fields and groups, etc. >> On top of the loop I have added "lock screen" to speed things up, and >> also because I don't want users to see what is going on, only the final >> layout when the loop is over. >> However, while the loop is running, I would like to have a progress bar >> and a message such as "step 1/20" etc. >> How can I handle that ? I took a look at callbacks, but unless I missed >> something, it seems limited to players. >> Thank you in advance. >> jbv >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:24:09 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:24:09 +0000 Subject: I seem to have missed something In-Reply-To: <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> References: <584B808A-20F2-4E4C-8625-7EDB536DC58D@mac.com> <67CA8159-AC45-4C31-836D-099D65708473@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <9179FE59-9D58-4C35-8914-6E39AFF58BED@iotecdigital.com> Because Kevin’s response to me in this exact scenario where I develop apps myself with I license I pay for myself, but employees of the company I work for use the app for business purposes, was that I have to pay for each user that uses my app. It is a commercial app because it is used in the workflow of the company I am an employee of, but I do not make any money on it, and if I approached my employer and asked for them to pay for it, they would decline. Bob S On Jul 26, 2024, at 3:13 AM, Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode wrote: Hm, how could one offer commercially a free app? From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 11:36:07 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:36:07 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Hi Bob, Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages  without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:41:07 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:41:07 +0000 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> References: <1A7C7C56-92B7-4483-A3B9-9DBC19447F64@livecode.com> Message-ID: Concerning hosting, in my case when I initially developed the database for my application, it was hosted on the Livecode servers. When the owner of the company found out he had me take it down because he didn’t want company data on servers he did not own / control. That is probably going to be an issue that crops up with more developers using your hosting services. Bob S On Jul 26, 2024, at 3:45 AM, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: The Internal apps model (for people building apps for use within their own organization) has gone over well in many cases. However I think there is perhaps a bit of a split between those who want to use the new Cloud hosting and data back end and those that don't want to use it, either because you have your own data back end or because you are creating smaller utilities that don't use data. Looking at the market as a whole and including new users, we've spoken to hundreds of people who do want to use the back end and the model and it is sitting pretty well for that group. For those of you that don't, my question is whether we have the volume discounting correct or whether we want to introduce a lower cost model at scale for that specific group. I'm not talking about changing the per-seat-for-commercial-end-users model, we're confident that's the right way forward. Our entire IP is in each standalone, and we have to scale with the value we create to have a successful business. We've learned that in our 20 years of history and the feedback this week has been ok on this point overall. I'm also not talking about changing costs for smaller numbers of seats. The question is whether we as a business want to also serve a segment without the Cloud hosting, at a better volume discount for higher seat numbers. This is a harder question than it looks, because so much of the benefit from the new platform comes from the new data back end. Giving new users a choice early in the process complicates their initial journey with us and potentially creates a confusing decision around one of the best new capabilities. It also has an impact on product engineering and the decisions we take there. On the other hand we want the platform to go on being practical for as many of you as possible. We appreciate your support over the years and this remains very important to us. There is a subset of you who are clearly not going to use the Cloud and for whom the new Internal model is presenting a challenge at scale. We will be reflecting on this question in the coming days. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Jul 26 11:42:19 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:42:19 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Well given recent posts this morning I would contact Livecode Support and discuss you specific situation with them. Bob S > On Jul 26, 2024, at 8:36 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. >> >> Bob S >> >> >> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. >> >> My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. >> >> Thank you for your assistance. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ckelly5430 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 11:53:01 2024 From: ckelly5430 at gmail.com (Colin Kelly) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 15:53:01 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Hi Heriberto, I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for our specific needs. Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along for the ride as the product *nearly* matures I too will have to leave the LC community and seek alternatives… Col. From: use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 To: Bob Sneidar via use-livecode Cc: Heriberto Torrado Subject: Re: Livecode Future Hi Bob, Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > Bob S > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello, > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 11:55:04 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 11:55:04 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> Bob, Thank you very much for your suggestion, but I have decided not to continue working with LiveCode. The constant changes in licensing pose a professional risk I cannot afford. I had a similar experience several years ago with Winautomation (now Microsoft Power Automate). They began charging for each automation developed with their app, and the license costs increased dramatically overnight. This forced me to stop using their software, and I am keen to avoid such unpleasant surprises in the future. As I primarily develop small desktop utilities, alternatives like Lazarus, Flutter, Electron, NW.js, or NeutralinoJS are more suitable for my needs. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:42, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Well given recent posts this morning I would contact Livecode Support and discuss you specific situation with them. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 26, 2024, at 8:36 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. >> >> In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. >> >> I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. >> >> As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us since I only develop desktop applications. >> >> Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. >> >> After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on programming languages without a big community and free licensing can lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. >> >> Best regards, >> Heriberto >> >> On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>> On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. >>> >>> My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am considering purchasing a new license. >>> >>> Thank you for your assistance. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 12:04:11 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:04:11 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase in development costs is a major concern. There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide the source code. Best regards, Heriberto On 7/26/24 11:53, Colin Kelly wrote: > > Hi Heriberto, > > I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new > licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for > our specific needs. > Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along > for the ride as the product **nearly** matures I too will have to > leave the LC community and seek alternatives > > Col. > > *From: *use-livecode on behalf > of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > *Date: *Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 > *To: *Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > *Cc: *Heriberto Torrado > *Subject: *Re: Livecode Future > > Hi Bob, > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, > it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small > applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, > a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption > tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each > user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar > one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us > since I only develop desktop applications. > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't > allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on > programming languages  without a big community and free licensing can > lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > > > Bob S > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully > reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company > in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed > several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is > straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need > to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, > but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am > considering purchasing a new license. > > > > Thank you for your assistance. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jbv at souslelogo.com Fri Jul 26 12:40:47 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:40:47 -0400 Subject: Lockscreen and progress bar In-Reply-To: <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> References: <847a3f344ccc832336db3dd28e1d78f1@souslelogo.com> <9DDE5A57-2231-48BA-BD8C-7CB9E78ABE9F@tweedly.net> <9552ab50b941aef3370a1ca6c8977b98@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: Basically my script takes a list of images, checks the imagedata of every image for possible white areas at the top, bottom, left or right, crops the image if necessary, resizes the image and groups it with fields created on the fly with text data from an xml file. When I simply lock the screen at the beginning of the main loop, everything works as expected. But when I use a group of objects on top of everything to hide the rest, with a couple of unlock/lock screen to update a progress bar and the content of a field in that top group, then imagedata processing stops working. I don't get any error, but it is as if images didn't feature any white area, when some of them actually do. I suspect there is a memory problem or something similar. From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Fri Jul 26 13:03:56 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 13:03:56 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: FWIW, i was thinking about an example of a competing product, and its pricing. here's xojo's "buy" url: https://xojo.com/store/ these are annual prices. it's actually a little less expensive than i would have guessed, but it is what it is. On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 12:05 PM Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode > has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing > to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. > Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and > the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase > in development costs is a major concern. > > There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop > and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for > desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are > much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and > Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide > the source code. > > Best regards, > Heriberto > > On 7/26/24 11:53, Colin Kelly wrote: > > > > Hi Heriberto, > > > > I find myself in a very similar situation with 180+ employees the new > > licensing modal is not suitable for the MSE space, at least, not for > > our specific needs. > > Such a shame that after 10 years of working with LC and being along > > for the ride as the product **nearly** matures I too will have to > > leave the LC community and seek alternatives… > > > > Col. > > > > *From: *use-livecode on behalf > > of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > > *Date: *Friday, 26 July 2024 at 16:37 > > *To: *Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > > *Cc: *Heriberto Torrado > > *Subject: *Re: Livecode Future > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > Thank you very much for clarifying my question. Based on your response, > > it's clear that LiveCode is not suitable for our needs. > > > > In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small > > applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, > > a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption > > tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each > > user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. > > > > I previously purchased the Indy license and intended to buy a similar > > one now. However, it seems I will need to find another solution. > > > > As you mentioned, the Mobile development license is not relevant for us > > since I only develop desktop applications. > > > > Additionally, our strict security measures mean our firewalls won't > > allow LiveCode applications to communicate externally. > > > > After 15 years of working with LiveCode, I've learned that relying on > > programming languages without a big community and free licensing can > > lead to significant risks and potential loss of knowledge. > > > > Best regards, > > Heriberto > > > > On 7/26/24 11:07, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > > Yes each user who uses your app will require a seat license. > > > > > > Bob S > > > > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 5:28 PM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I apologize for asking my questions again, but after carefully > > reading the previous email, I am still a bit confused. > > > > > > My situation is as follows: I work as the IT Director at a company > > in New York. Among many other responsibilities, I have developed > > several apps for internal use by our employees. My question is > > straightforward: With the new licensing model, does each employee need > > to pay for a license? I am currently using the "Community" version, > > but it does not work on Apple Silicon devices. Therefore, I am > > considering purchasing a new license. > > > > > > Thank you for your assistance. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Jul 26 13:08:14 2024 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 12:08:14 -0500 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> Message-ID: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > Folks, I'm happy to go on discussing the licensing model in general on here > as needed, for example edge cases or things that arent clear in the model, > as it helps us to hone it. But at this point if you have individual > questions about the costs for you under the new model, please email them to > support and we can give you an accurate quote and talk you through your > options. Otherwise we are going to be going over the same territory here on > the list for some time to come! Well build out the information pages some > more worked examples next week too. Thanks. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Fri Jul 26 13:49:49 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 17:49:49 +0000 Subject: The story so far Message-ID: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Fri Jul 26 19:48:09 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 09:48:09 +1000 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: > > I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not > work on Apple Silicon devices. That’s a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? Neville Smythe From dan at clearvisiontech.com Fri Jul 26 20:19:39 2024 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 00:19:39 +0000 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> References: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: I missed that too. Where can I read the new (and updated) lifetime license policy? -Dan From: use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode Date: Friday, July 26, 2024 at 10:54 AM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: Richard Gaskin Subject: Re: The story so far Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From htorrado at networkdreams.net Fri Jul 26 21:18:46 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 21:18:46 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately, my tests with various M1 and M2 Mac models using the community edition of LiveCode have yielded negative results. 1. The IDE opens but closes almost immediately. 2. Running a LiveCode app compiled for Intel-based Macs results in the error message: "This application cannot be run." I'm unsure if there is a compatibility option I can enable, but it appears that Rosetta 2 does not work with the IDE or the apps. Best, Heriberto On 7/26/24 19:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >> >> I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >> work on Apple Silicon devices. > > Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. > > Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? > > Neville Smythe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From selander at tkf.att.ne.jp Sat Jul 27 02:57:32 2024 From: selander at tkf.att.ne.jp (Tim Selander) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 15:57:32 +0900 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 -- I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! Tim Selander On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > >> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >> >> I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >> work on Apple Silicon devices. > > > Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for my Community work. > > Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple Silicon? > > Neville Smythe > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Sat Jul 27 03:56:47 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 08:56:47 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Mike Just picking up on your email below from earlier. You would be eligible for the 5% if you had it available in a privately accessible part of a web site to download as a standalone. That is, I’m pretty sure, the correct understanding of this licensing. And if you are getting $0 Gross from it, 5% of nothing is nothing. If you are being paid for you app by the company you work for then it is of not only commercial ‘use’ but also commercially profitable, and therefore you would pay 5% on whatever you are paid for said app Gross (ie, not just the net profit - a bit like the 30% gross you would pay to Apple from their AppStore). If I’m wrong, someone correct me. Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 25 Jul 2024, at 17:15, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: > > i'm coming to this conversation, late, because i'm spending very little > time coding, and most of my time managing. > if i understand the pricing correctly, LC wants to charge $440/year for > each mobile device that is running an app that we wrote (we don't have any > publicly available apps, so the 5%, aka the sales commission, wouldn't > apply). > so, for the app that we use on kiosks in our plant, and have messed around > with letting employees put on their own phones, we're talking about > somewhere around $7,000 (16 devices) for our internal app, and another > $20-25k for our customers' apps. > i hope that i'm wrong about that. if i'm not, lc just entered the realm of > uncompetitive for building and running these mobile apps. From sean at pidigital.co.uk Sat Jul 27 04:07:51 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 09:07:51 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: That’s a superb idea. It’s very much like the one for Unreal Engine 5 I use. Theres is something more like $100,000 though. At that tip over point, it is quite a hike in costs though if you’ve been used to paying nothing and suddenly have to start paying $5000. But, hopefully by then you will have earned enough to support the 5% having still $95k left over :D We have to be reasonable. LC’s offer is actually, having done all the sums, actually really good. I feel that the biggest confusion on here is what a seat is and if it’s 5% of gross income from the app or a flat $499. I think that if that was described far more succinctly then all of these questions would disappear. Best Sean Cole > On 26 Jul 2024, at 18:08, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > I hope this is generic enough. > > I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. > > I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. > > I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: From dvglasgow at gmail.com Sat Jul 27 08:01:45 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 13:01:45 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> > On 3 Jul 2024, at 2:05 am, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > There is however > > filter elements of with into tLines; put line 1 of the keys of tLines into tFoundLine > > And that is still very fast on unicode, even though it will find all the lines matching str, not just the first. This can be an advantage or not. [Note does need to be set up to match a whole line] Ooooh! Interesting! I have an app I haven’t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear… Any thoughts/advice welcome. Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 27 10:25:55 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 10:25:55 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: sean, * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", "rapid report verification", it's $1999. * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the dev tools are primitive. * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes the servers. * all three of those products are multithreaded. * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a customer. * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on their phone. From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Sat Jul 27 16:14:53 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 13:14:53 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: Xojo is not true multithreaded. The threads are cooperative, not preemptive. It uses "workers" which are basically helper apps to sort of do multithreads. They are working on preemptive threads but no idea when that will happen. The IDE is written in Xojo so its use of threads is limited. My personal opinion... stay away from Xojo. Their CEO does not listen to customers and they spend more time renaming controls and events then actually adding value to the language. They have different names for controls on each platform, i.e. DesktopButton, IOSButton, AndroidButton so you cannot use GUI code between platforms. Documentation leaves a lot to be desired. I used Xojo for many years until they came out with API2 and started renaming everything just for the sake of renaming. Its a mess now. ---------------------------------------- From: "Mike Kerner via use-livecode" Sent: 7/27/24 9:28 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Mike Kerner Subject: Re: Livecode Future sean, * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", "rapid report verification", it's $1999. * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the dev tools are primitive. * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes the servers. * all three of those products are multithreaded. * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a customer. * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on their phone. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Sat Jul 27 17:23:19 2024 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 17:23:19 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <9C4199A9-DB99-4139-AACF-B792FBEE8C60@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: i appreciate the feedback. we've looked at xojo, a number of times, but never written anything important in it. it was just an option that came to mind, immediately, when thinking about LC competitors, and their pricing. if we we decide to pull the plug on LC and rewrite our mobile apps, xojo would certainly be an environment we would consider. On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 4:16 PM Phil Smith via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Xojo is not true multithreaded. The threads are cooperative, not > preemptive. It uses "workers" which are basically helper apps to sort of > do multithreads. They are working on preemptive threads but no idea when > that will happen. The IDE is written in Xojo so its use of threads is > limited. > > My personal opinion... stay away from Xojo. Their CEO does not listen to > customers and they spend more time renaming controls and events then > actually adding value to the language. They have different names for > controls on each platform, i.e. DesktopButton, IOSButton, AndroidButton so > you cannot use GUI code between platforms. Documentation leaves a lot to > be desired. > > I used Xojo for many years until they came out with API2 and started > renaming everything just for the sake of renaming. Its a mess now. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Mike Kerner via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/27/24 9:28 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Mike Kerner > Subject: Re: Livecode Future > > sean, > > * in reverse order: compare to xojo. $799. unlimited deployment > > (mac/win/linux/web/mobile, console/service apps. instead of bragging about > > their consulting service, they send you consulting leads). if you want to > > unlock god mode, with things like "top priority support", "fast fixes", > > "rapid report verification", it's $1999. > > * my MRP/ERP server, which runs the back office modules (AR/AP/GL/Payroll, > > etc.), and includes dev tools and support: $322. that is not a typo. the > > dev tools are primitive. > > * at the other end, 4D, the "super-expensive" database/application/RAD/web > > server, which also includes multi-threaded apps, base price, with two > > users... $274. each additional user in the tier: $94. unlimited web > > clients: $335. our total: $891. (god mode is an additional $999). that > > makes the pricing a little less expensive than xojo, and it also includes > > the servers. > > * all three of those products are multithreaded. > > * i'm more concerned about the corporate app seats than i am about whether > > 5% or $440 per device for customers is a bigger deal killer for commercial > > clients - it won't be the first time we had someone rewrite an app for a > > customer. > > * $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. we are > > not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, for instance, on > > their phone. > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From ambassador at fourthworld.com Sat Jul 27 17:58:39 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 21:58:39 +0000 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: Mike Kerner wrote: > i appreciate the feedback. we've looked at xojo, a number of times, > but never written anything important in it. it was just an option > that came to mind, immediately, when thinking about LC competitors, > and their pricing. I've been very immersed in vendor evaluation in recent years as I selected a web toolkit to build out some domain properties with. As I worked through that process, one of the things that became clearly useful for a thorough evalution is to not only look at vendor-managed forums, but also discussions beyond those as well, such as social media, etc. For Xojo, a thorough evaluation can benefit from visiting the forum for those who no longer feel comfortable having candid discussion in Xojo's own forum: https://ifnotnil.com/ Caveat: I haven't and don't plan to use Xojo in the foreseeable future, so I'm not endorsing any of the opinions expressed there one way or another. Not having used the product, I can offer no informed opinion about the views of those forum members. But as a content strategist and community builder I monitor many product ecosystems, and have found the discussion there interesting from a sentiment mining standpoint if nothing else. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 27 20:31:42 2024 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 10:31:42 +1000 Subject: Filtering unicode text Message-ID: David Glasgow wrote > I have an app I haven?t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit > > I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear? I can’t say how Mark's technique would scale up to millions or hundreds of thousands of lines, but certainly in my case of around 1500 lines I got a 10x speedup, from an unacceptable 20 minutes to 2 minutes, processing a text file which had suddenly acquired a singe character requiring unicode. There is a caveat… I said line 1 of the keys is the first found line. That is not correct. Since arrays are stored in an internally determined way, the lines will one reported in an unpredictable order. So you may need to add a Sort overhead. Sort is still fast even for Unicode text, though scaling to millions of lines…I don’t know; hopefully the number of found lines would be small, so that wouldn’t be a problem. Just don’t search for “the”. The take-away lesson is to avoid anything which involves recursively finding line-endings in Unicode text, even if implicitly [A note to Mark W.: I still think the algorithm for “line k of tText” would be worth making more efficient - as I read your comments it uses a general case search processor for Unicode which has to take account of a large number of possible variants of representations of characters.] If your text is plain ascii or native (or if you could process an ascii version of the text for finding strings) the benefits of converting to an array may be less striking. But since the speed-up comes from the random access to the found lines I wouldn’t be surprised to find an advantage even there. The implementation of arrays seems to be extraordinarily efficient. [An OT thought just struck me - is that why NoSQL databases as used in AWC work? I know nothing about NoSQL or AWC but if I go on board with Create I may have to learn.] Neville Smythe From curry at pair.com Sat Jul 27 23:17:37 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2024 23:17:37 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: > $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. > we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, > for instance, on their phone. Well said! You summed it up perfectly. Thanks. What LC tier would work for you? My experience ... Consulting clients, big and small, have real-life budgets! Many already have servers and don't want to pay arm and leg extra. 5 to 10 users is considered modest, and they want it affordable. Most sure as heck don't want extra app fee if they hire one staff. More attractive 'Internal/Bespoke Apps' pricing for real-life clients: LC data: Halve the current user price BEFORE volume discounts. DIY data: 100 users per current user price! Honor system/trust. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From curry at pair.com Sun Jul 28 00:59:22 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 00:59:22 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking No-Hassle Solution Message-ID: I agreed with Simon on Tracking vs Privacy/Security: > If I had ever tried to supply any application that "phoned home" > I would have been asked to leave and never darken their door again. And old-fashioned busywork/paperwork Hassle to request opt outs - > additional levels of complexity, friction and cost. Solution ... 1. A truly modern and flexible automatic approach. When NOT using LC's data hosting, the Standalone Builder notices. No reason for high cost per user - thus, no reason for Tracking. 2. Or an easy LC data/Tracking opt out system via portal. Need control per project, though - clients/apps vary! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From skiplondon at gmail.com Sun Jul 28 09:14:03 2024 From: skiplondon at gmail.com (Skip Kimpel) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 08:14:03 -0500 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Wow… just catching up on this thread, and I have to say, I am more confused than ever! Not sure the licensing model needed to be this complicated and questioning if LC even knows who its end user is and what we are developing. I don’t mean to be trouble here, and I am probably misconstruing fact / speculation. If so, I apologize. Having said that, one should take notice at radical licensing model change failures, such as Unity. There are lessons to be learned out there. For the record, I love LC and its power and simplicity. I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Best regards, SKIP KIMPEL > On Jul 27, 2024, at 10:18 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > >  > Mike: > > > $440/device is not happening. even $100/device is not happening. > > we are not paying $100/employee so they can run our payroll app, > > for instance, on their phone. > > Well said! You summed it up perfectly. Thanks. > What LC tier would work for you? > > My experience ... > > Consulting clients, big and small, have real-life budgets! > Many already have servers and don't want to pay arm and leg extra. > > 5 to 10 users is considered modest, and they want it affordable. > Most sure as heck don't want extra app fee if they hire one staff. > > More attractive 'Internal/Bespoke Apps' pricing for real-life clients: > > LC data: Halve the current user price BEFORE volume discounts. > DIY data: 100 users per current user price! Honor system/trust. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Sun Jul 28 10:32:14 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 15:32:14 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - Tracking No-Hassle Solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 28 Jul 2024, at 06:00, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > When NOT using LC's data hosting, the Standalone Builder notices. > > No reason for high cost per user - thus, no reason for Tracking. From my perspective (I know, I know: cue 'blind men describing an elephant'), this does sound eminently sensible. k From tom at makeshyft.com Sun Jul 28 13:10:35 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 13:10:35 -0400 Subject: Appwrite Cloud & Self-host Integration Message-ID: Hello Y'all... A couple of years ago I found the perfect solution for all my cloud hosting needs for now, and seemingly into the future. https://appwrite.io I am currently using appwrite cloud..... for $15 a month to have scalable cloud infrastructure. They also have a free tier. The best part is however, that whenever I am ready, I migrate my cloud data to self hosted Appwrite. Appwrite is fully open source and continuously improved by a funded team. The featureset is very impressive I can confirm that appwrite rest api works great with livecode. serverless functions can take care of server side functions that you don't want to do through client. It has everything one needs to host an any app in the cloud. So far, I have integrated: - Authentication, email / password. - creating a session - CRUD for database - and object storage upload (currently only small files upload, needs a little work.) - I also have some php serverless functions (which appwrite does as well) that help in server side tasks, like creating a wordpress user when a new appwrite user is created If anyone is worried about livecode's cloud pricing, remember that you don't actually have to use it. I will share my appwrite integration with anyone upon request, and eventually when I have more time I will put it out there on github. I might put it under GPL, so that if someone adds another function to the integration, the library can grow. I have not generalized the handlers yet for general use, but I can do it Just reach out if you have need of it. Thanks, Tom From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Sun Jul 28 15:10:04 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 19:10:04 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 Message-ID: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> Hi David, Here is a script that lets you compare filter operations on lists or arrays. With and without unicode. put it into a button and make a field "fRes" and hold down the option/alt key to test unicode, else it is ASCII. ----------------------------------------------------- on mouseUp put 10000 into tHowMany -- hold down optionKey/altKey to use unicode put the optionKey is down into tUnicode if tUnicode then put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a" & \ " Höfuðborgarsvæðið,a dog is a dog" into tData ## with unicode else put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a " & \ "chicken,a dog is a dog" into tData ## without unicode end if repeat tHowMany put any item of tData & cr after tCollect end repeat delete char - 1 of tCollect put tCollect into tList put tCollect into tForArray if tUnicode then put the milliseconds into t1 filter tList with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split split tForArray by return -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split filter elements of tForArray with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode combine tForArray by return put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime else put the milliseconds into t1 filter tList with "*dog*" ## without unicode put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split split tForArray by return put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split filter elements of tForArray with "*dog*" ## with unicode combine tForArray by return put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime end if put "Unicode: " & tUnicode & ", Lines: " & tHowMany & cr & "List: " & \ tListTime & " ms" & cr & "Array: " & tArrayTime & " ms" \ & cr & the long time into field "fRes" end mouseUp ----------------------------------------------------- Kind regards Bernd From curry at pair.com Sun Jul 28 18:21:49 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 18:21:49 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Skip: > Wow just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) Skip: > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. Pay full price for developer seats... But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 03:28:33 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:28:33 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Message-ID: Seriously, Curry, you are so good at summing these things up. It's what makes you such a great writer and consultant no doubt. I hope you are heard through this mist. On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 at 23:21, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Skip: > > > Wow… just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! > > Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. > > Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: > > - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' > > - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' > - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) > > - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... > - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' > - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! > - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. > > - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... > - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. > - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) > > Skip: > > > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) > > Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: > Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. > > They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. > > So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! > I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. > > Pay full price for developer seats... > But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! > > I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? > (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) > So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) > > (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - > Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, > so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From dvglasgow at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 03:34:53 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:34:53 +0100 Subject: Filtering unicode text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. As ever, interesting and helpful. Cheers David G > On 28 Jul 2024, at 1:31 am, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > David Glasgow wrote > >> I have an app I haven?t touched for a while that makes heavy use of filter of string variables up to 1,000,000 lines (but often only hundreds to tens of thousands of lines). In my case finding all lines containing the to be found string is a benefit >> >> I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear? > > I can’t say how Mark's technique would scale up to millions or hundreds of thousands of lines, but certainly in my case of around 1500 lines I got a 10x speedup, from an unacceptable 20 minutes to 2 minutes, processing a text file which had suddenly acquired a singe character requiring unicode. > > There is a caveat… I said line 1 of the keys is the first found line. That is not correct. Since arrays are stored in an internally determined way, the lines will one reported in an unpredictable order. So you may need to add a Sort overhead. Sort is still fast even for Unicode text, though scaling to millions of lines…I don’t know; hopefully the number of found lines would be small, so that wouldn’t be a problem. Just don’t search for “the”. > > The take-away lesson is to avoid anything which involves recursively finding line-endings in Unicode text, even if implicitly [A note to Mark W.: I still think the algorithm for “line k of tText” would be worth making more efficient - as I read your comments it uses a general case search processor for Unicode which has to take account of a large number of possible variants of representations of characters.] > > If your text is plain ascii or native (or if you could process an ascii version of the text for finding strings) the benefits of converting to an array may be less striking. But since the speed-up comes from the random access to the found lines I wouldn’t be surprised to find an advantage even there. The implementation of arrays seems to be extraordinarily efficient. [An OT thought just struck me - is that why NoSQL databases as used in AWC work? I know nothing about NoSQL or AWC but if I go on board with Create I may have to learn.] > > > Neville Smythe > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dvglasgow at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 03:38:23 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:38:23 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> References: <6921F601-C265-421B-A739-B624DA391013@uni-wh.de> Message-ID: <6EC21EEC-4EAB-421D-9FC3-BDE2CF597A8C@gmail.com> Many thanks, I will definitely include this in my testing. Cheers David G > On 28 Jul 2024, at 8:10 pm, Niggemann, Bernd via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi David, > > Here is a script that lets you compare filter operations on lists or arrays. With and without unicode. > > put it into a button and make a field "fRes" and hold down the option/alt key to test unicode, else it is ASCII. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > on mouseUp > put 10000 into tHowMany > -- hold down optionKey/altKey to use unicode > put the optionKey is down into tUnicode > if tUnicode then > put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a" & \ > " Höfuðborgarsvæðið,a dog is a dog" into tData ## with unicode > else > put "a horse is a horse,a chicken is a " & \ > "chicken,a dog is a dog" into tData ## without unicode > end if > > repeat tHowMany > put any item of tData & cr after tCollect > end repeat > delete char - 1 of tCollect > > put tCollect into tList > put tCollect into tForArray > > if tUnicode then > put the milliseconds into t1 > filter tList with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode > put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime > > put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split > split tForArray by return > -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split > filter elements of tForArray with "*Höfuðborgarsvæðið*" ## with unicode > combine tForArray by return > put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime > else > put the milliseconds into t1 > filter tList with "*dog*" ## without unicode > put the milliseconds - t1 into tListTime > > -- put the milliseconds into t1 ## include split > split tForArray by return > put the milliseconds into t1 ## without split > filter elements of tForArray with "*dog*" ## with unicode > combine tForArray by return > put the milliseconds - t1 into tArrayTime > > end if > put "Unicode: " & tUnicode & ", Lines: " & tHowMany & cr & "List: " & \ > tListTime & " ms" & cr & "Array: " & tArrayTime & " ms" \ > & cr & the long time into field "fRes" > end mouseUp > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards > Bernd > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From georges at caen.one Mon Jul 29 05:46:31 2024 From: georges at caen.one (Georges Malamoud) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 11:46:31 +0200 Subject: Appwrite Cloud & Self-host Integration In-Reply-To: <46af36ff0f63bf8de9e97383565f6728@caen.one> References: <46af36ff0f63bf8de9e97383565f6728@caen.one> Message-ID: Hello and thanks I use Hostm with LC Server. Very good integration and small prices https://www.hostm.com/livecode-hosting No problem until now Georges > A couple of years ago I found the perfect solution for all my cloud hosting > needs for now, and seemingly into the future. > https://appwrite.io > > https://appwrite.io > needs for now, and seemingly into the future. > > Tom Glod tom at makeshyft.com From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:26:32 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:26:32 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> wrote: From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:26:47 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:26:47 +0100 Subject: The story so far In-Reply-To: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> References: <19da5b44e74442ff007d976d309cbd014f35e1b4@fourthworld.com> Message-ID: <5E18D94C-B7A7-45E2-A3AC-D055E6583611@livecode.com> Sent off list. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: Kevin Miller wrote: > After an initial misstep (sorry!), we tweaked the lifetime license > policy past 2027 and that now seems to have been well received. I missed that. Where can I read the new lifetime license policy? -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:03 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:03 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <779B0EC4-E6DF-4837-8A36-A86CEF6AC349@livecode.com> Thanks Sean. It’s a big change and we are doing our best to explain it as clearly as we can. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 27/07/2024, 09:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Pi Digital via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: That’s a superb idea. It’s very much like the one for Unreal Engine 5 I use. Theres is something more like $100,000 though. At that tip over point, it is quite a hike in costs though if you’ve been used to paying nothing and suddenly have to start paying $5000. But, hopefully by then you will have earned enough to support the 5% having still $95k left over :D We have to be reasonable. LC’s offer is actually, having done all the sums, actually really good. I feel that the biggest confusion on here is what a seat is and if it’s 5% of gross income from the app or a flat $499. I think that if that was described far more succinctly then all of these questions would disappear. Best Sean Cole From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:21 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:21 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CD3E9AB-A7F1-4DC6-8919-362549530988@livecode.com> Don't forget we have videos that explain both the rationale and the model. https://future.livecode.com Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 28/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Skip Kimpel via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: Wow… just catching up on this thread, and I have to say, I am more confused than ever! Not sure the licensing model needed to be this complicated and questioning if LC even knows who its end user is and what we are developing. I don’t mean to be trouble here, and I am probably misconstruing fact / speculation. If so, I apologize. Having said that, one should take notice at radical licensing model change failures, such as Unity. There are lessons to be learned out there. For the record, I love LC and its power and simplicity. I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Best regards, SKIP KIMPEL From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:36 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: That’s not what Create is. It’s a cloud based environment where we host your apps, run scripts and provide an integrated data backend. There may be other options to move forward available for existing users who contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 15:53, "use-livecode on behalf of Mike Kerner via use-livecode" after the emails from kevin and heather, this morning, here's hoping we get a discussion of a more typical/traditional corporate app dev tier, because that's what lc is. it's not a db server. it's not an application server, it's a app dev tool, for building standalone, single-threaded, engined binaries. From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:27:55 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:27:55 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <3067c9f8-5987-4976-baa0-e09cfb1a4bf6@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <2033353B-6F48-455E-8870-742DF13A96DB@livecode.com> Precisely. There are free products in the marketplace and products far more expensive than LiveCode too. Appian costs $75 per user with a minimum of 100 users so $7500 per month. Either the benefits that LiveCode bring are worth the price to you or they aren't. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 17:04, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" Yes, it really is a shame what is happening. I understand that LiveCode has every right to monetize their product. I would be more than willing to donate a small amount on top of the license fee to support LiveCode. Working with something so similar to HyperCard is truly enjoyable, and the LiveCode community is fantastic. However, this significant increase in development costs is a major concern. There are free alternatives like Flutter (which supports both desktop and mobile development), Electron, NW.js, NeutralinoJS, and Lazarus (for desktop). Unfortunately, these tools use programming languages that are much less user-friendly than LiveCode, such as Dart, JavaScript, and Pascal. Additionally, with Electron and NeutralinoJS, you cannot hide the source code. Best regards, Heriberto From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:09 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:09 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future - End User Cost Extravaganza In-Reply-To: <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> References: <490B13CA-E9FA-4613-8388-B19F4072EA72@gmail.com> <2688efe0-a39a-4682-ab7f-699d2e1197bc@pair.com> Message-ID: We have discussed internally whether to produce an option without the Cloud backend for Create. We're not going to do it. It would create additional engineering costs, confusion about the offering for new users and a lot of the value in Create is elsewhere in the redevelopments we've done not just in the Cloud. People already have lots of questions just figuring out the difference between Internal Apps and Apps for Sale, another option isn't going to be a positive thing. You don't have to use our cloud, but we aren't going to be removing it by default. For those of you that have large internal user packs and are finding this challenging, please contact support directly. We may have other options available for existing customers in certain cases. Kind regards, Kevin On 28/07/2024, 23:21, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode Skip: > Wow… just catching up on this thread ... more confused than ever! Yes; big licensing changes, huge threads with generic subject lines. Quick Recap with quotes from Buy and FAQ: - 2 main licensing models: 'Internal Users' and 'Apps for Sale.' - Apps for Sale: developer seat(s) + '5% of Application Payments.' - (5% is not too painful/threatening, so those folks are not alarmed.) - But 'Internal Users' are hit harder! THAT is why people are upset... - 'Users includes app developers at the same cost as end users.' - Pretty radical and painful, setting off a fire without warning! - Now 'Volume discounts apply for 12 users or more' but still pricey. - LC seemed to downplay folks' concerns as edge cases and retro... - Obviously not; CEOs and IT managers, big and small firms, hobbyists. - (We have so much GENIUS and industry in this community!) Skip: > I hope this all works out in the short term (and long term!) Exactly my thoughts! As a consultant/nice guy, I look out for EVERYONE: Big or small, app sales/internal, low code or code lover, new or old. They all matter; I don't want anyone (including LC) derailed by license. So let's find a fair, realistic solution for the 'Internal Users' folks! I disagree with conflating developers at the same cost as end users. Pay full price for developer seats... But address whatever (XYZ$) costs an arm/leg per end user! I assume that would be data hosting. And extra customer support? (Hopefully NOT subsidizing other LC licensing models.) So ... offer a BIG end-user discount for opting out of XYZ$. :) (I'm recuperating from a big, long round of Long COVID - Still tiring to type - but obviously an urgent situation for some, so I speak up to encourage a good solution for all LC developers.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:13 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:13 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> <39ac1bf5-ad4c-4ed2-83d4-eb33affd6e7e@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <111EBB93-D74A-44D1-8559-7FC147310829@livecode.com> Changing licensing terms is not unique to us. One average successful software companies change pricing 3-4 times per year. I'm not sure that all other companies that change licensing have their CEO involved talking to customers either. And remember, we haven't changed the licensing for the existing platform which you can continue to use on the same terms up until its end of life in 2027. The new licensing is for the new platform. Kind regards, Kevin On 26/07/2024, 16:55, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode Bob, Thank you very much for your suggestion, but I have decided not to continue working with LiveCode. The constant changes in licensing pose a professional risk I cannot afford. I had a similar experience several years ago with Winautomation (now Microsoft Power Automate). They began charging for each automation developed with their app, and the license costs increased dramatically overnight. This forced me to stop using their software, and I am keen to avoid such unpleasant surprises in the future. As I primarily develop small desktop utilities, alternatives like Lazarus, Flutter, Electron, NW.js, or NeutralinoJS are more suitable for my needs. Best regards, Heriberto From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 08:28:29 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:28:29 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> References: <2C0A5CE7-E0CD-404A-8CDB-7C7D280BAE54@tweedly.net> <8609214D-2012-47C8-8B68-552F2BBABBAE@iotecdigital.com> <80C778C0-9C02-4C03-A5F5-7672AF8E226C@livecode.com> <7e75dcb0-a479-4a8f-864e-15a4782a4df5@networkdreams.net> <1E8F133D-B391-492A-B683-E276D4C8BA21@iotecdigital.com> <3993e70e-0225-4356-ae47-22620a4212d3@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: <8C69B1CD-D947-48D9-8E25-849176DA375F@livecode.com> The charge is not per app, it is per user. You can supply as many apps as you like to any licensed user. I'm sorry if you think LiveCode isn't suitable for your needs. As an existing customer I invite you to contact support directly. Kind regards, Kevin In my current role at the new company, I've developed several small applications using LiveCode for internal use: a client onboarding form, a workflow management app for our printers, and a folder encryption tool. These are small utilities, and it wouldn't be feasible for each user to pay $150 per app, resulting in $450 per employee. From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 09:45:47 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 09:45:47 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tim, Yes, that could be the problem. All computers I've tested livecode run MacOs Sonoma. Best, Hery On 7/27/24 02:57, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: > It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 -- > I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! > > Tim Selander > > > On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> >>> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >>> >>>   I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >>> work on Apple Silicon devices. >> >> >> Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for  my >> Community work. >> >> Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple >> Silicon? >>   Neville Smythe >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Mon Jul 29 10:07:45 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 07:07:45 -0700 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 10:16:01 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:16:01 -0400 Subject: Community edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52831113-a29a-4e34-bc99-b8f2c733b075@researchware.com> Because of a change Apple made in Sonoma, only LC 6.9.11 and higher will work on that and future macOSes On 7/29/2024 9:45 AM, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > Hi Tim, > > Yes, that could be the problem. All computers I've tested livecode run > MacOs Sonoma. > > Best, > Hery > > > On 7/27/24 02:57, Tim Selander via use-livecode wrote: >> It works on the older M1 macs, as long as you don't upgrade to OS14 >> -- I'm keeping my M1 Macbook air for as long as I can! >> >> Tim Selander >> >> >> On 2024/07/27 8:48, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 26 Jul 2024, at 8:01 pm, Heriberto wrote: >>>> >>>>   I am currently using the "Community" version, but it does not >>>> work on Apple Silicon devices. >>> >>> >>> Thats a disappointment, I was thinking it might be my refuge for  >>> my Community work. >>> >>> Do standalones created with the Community Edition not work on Apple >>> Silicon? >>>   Neville Smythe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 10:35:15 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:35:15 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> Message-ID: <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > >>> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com Mon Jul 29 10:57:05 2024 From: pjsmith at pdtsoftware.com (Phil Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 07:57:05 -0700 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> Message-ID: <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. Really don't understand that statement. ---------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: I hope this is generic enough. I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > >>> wrote: _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 11:25:37 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:25:37 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> References: <0946CE3F-B6B9-41C8-84FA-95DF244BA513@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A133D12-996E-48DB-A7EB-FB49CAAA5ACE@iotecdigital.com> I don’t see how that would be faster. You are adding string processing overhead, not reducing it. Arrays work well because you already have an index of sorts (the keys of the array). On Jul 27, 2024, at 5:01 AM, David V Glasgow via use-livecode wrote: I have long intended to see if I can speed things up a bit. Should I go back and look at converting string lists to arrays, then using filter, and finally converting back to a variable? I suppose I could do this contingent upon number of lines just in case time penalties and benefits are not linear… Any thoughts/advice welcome. Cheers David G David Glasgow From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 13:25:23 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:25:23 -0400 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> References: <7F21E930-DFAB-4041-A7E2-C0B4ADB70DC2@livecode.com> <190f003b830.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <72745CA9-A026-4311-99EC-4A4F48951A22@livecode.com> <9DC65FC7-30C5-4254-9613-2905D8CABDDE@livecode.com> <1d57134515e6493a8aa3543b8ad270be@21cf830871e849a3ba760b9364fc6c0b> Message-ID: HI Phill, The subscription and download payment model began in the world of video games with downloadable content (DLC). Many software manufacturers quickly realized that charging for content downloads or monthly application use could be a lucrative business. This model has since evolved into SaaS (Software as a Service) payments. However, this approach is fundamentally unfair, as users must continue paying for the software even if they do not need continuous updates, or they must stop using it altogether. This situation is as absurd as buying bricks and mortar to build a house and then being forced to pay a monthly fee for those materials, even if you do not want your house renovated every six months. This critique is not aimed at Livecode specifically but at the software industry in general. Over time, people will likely begin to reject this business model and seek alternatives. This scenario mirrors the 1980s when people, frustrated with the high prices of mainframes and minicomputers, switched to personal computers. Similarly, those fed up with the exorbitant costs of UNIX systems transitioned to Windows NT and eventually to LINUX. While you can exploit customers for a while when they feel captive, they are much smarter and more resourceful than companies might think. Best, Hery On 7/29/24 10:57, Phil Smith via use-livecode wrote: > Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. > > I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. > > But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions > > I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com ~http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf ofuse-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. > > That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. > > Really don't understand that statement. > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > > > Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > Cc: Kevin Miller > > > Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions > > From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. > > However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: > > I hope this is generic enough. > > I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago > > or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books > > or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 > > or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an > > incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few > > requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I > > know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. > > My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. > > I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars > > more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because > > it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are > > now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not > > feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. > > I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is > > required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% > > rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. > > -- > > Jacqueline Landman Gay |jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> > > HyperActive Software |http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> > > On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > >>> wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dougr at telus.net Mon Jul 29 13:36:14 2024 From: dougr at telus.net (Douglas A. Ruisaard) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:36:14 -0700 Subject: unsubscribing Message-ID: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for many, many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. Have a good one! Douglas Ruisaard From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 14:08:39 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:08:39 +0100 Subject: Individual licensing questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47FEE99E-5F44-45F6-BF64-797A51A0DB19@pidigital.co.uk> The fallacy to your analogy is that with the new LC Create, you will be paying for (or at least subsidising) the server it is run from and the database storage (even if you don’t make use of it). For LC9 the analogy holds up. But as that’s going away it would seem LCLtd are kinda doing the ‘right thing’ by making it a full service rather than pure software and charge a sub. Sorry, I know that’s triggered a number on here. Sean Cole Pi Digital > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:25, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode wrote: > > HI Phill, > > The subscription and download payment model began in the world of video games with downloadable content (DLC). Many software manufacturers quickly realized that charging for content downloads or monthly application use could be a lucrative business. This model has since evolved into SaaS (Software as a Service) payments. However, this approach is fundamentally unfair, as users must continue paying for the software even if they do not need continuous updates, or they must stop using it altogether. > > This situation is as absurd as buying bricks and mortar to build a house and then being forced to pay a monthly fee for those materials, even if you do not want your house renovated every six months. This critique is not aimed at Livecode specifically but at the software industry in general. Over time, people will likely begin to reject this business model and seek alternatives. > > This scenario mirrors the 1980s when people, frustrated with the high prices of mainframes and minicomputers, switched to personal computers. Similarly, those fed up with the exorbitant costs of UNIX systems transitioned to Windows NT and eventually to LINUX. While you can exploit customers for a while when they feel captive, they are much smarter and more resourceful than companies might think. > > Best, > Hery > >> On 7/29/24 10:57, Phil Smith via use-livecode wrote: >> Yes, the subscription model in general, not just LiveCode, is set up that way. You are actually paying for features ahead of time with the subscription model. At least that's how I see it. >> >> I know that's the industry standard now, I just *hate* it, though. >> >> But don't take that as an attack on Livecode, that's just my personal opinion on how software licensing works these days. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" >> Sent: 7/29/24 9:36 AM >> To: How to use LiveCode >> Cc: Kevin Miller >> Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >> >> I'm not sure I quite follow. I'm commenting on the SaaS model in the industry vs the historic pay-per-upgrade model. You buy a SaaS platform then get updates (sometimes dozens of them) each your as your subscription is current. 70% + of business SW is SaaS now and growing. Any it was just intended to be a minor point. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com ~http://www.livecode.com/ >> >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> On 29/07/2024, 15:07, "use-livecode on behalf of Phil Smith via use-livecode" on behalf ofuse-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: >> >> Maybe I'm not reading ths right but does that not say that you want customers to pay for new features *before* they have been developed? When I buy a product, I of course expect to have all the updates and platforms ready at that time. >> >> That's like saying that after I buy a new car, I have to start making additional payments to pay for new features on the next vehicle and hope they are ready when I buy it. >> >> Really don't understand that statement. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> From: "Kevin Miller via use-livecode" > >> >> Sent: 7/29/24 7:27 AM >> >> To: How to use LiveCode > >> >> Cc: Kevin Miller > >> >> Subject: Re: Individual licensing questions >> >> From a general business point of view, the business model where someone buys an update every few years is not equitable. Customers expect you to have all the new features or new platform support ready when they arrive for their update, yet haven't paid for that to happen. Development costs continue steadily throughout that intervening period. >> >> However for this particular historic use case, its not something we want to get in the way of. If those customers are still around in 3 years time when Classic support ends I'm sure we can figure something out for you if you contact us directly. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > >> >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> On 26/07/2024, 18:08, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" > >> on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> wrote: >> >> I hope this is generic enough. >> >> I have several clients who use apps I created just for them, 20 years ago >> >> or more. Frequently these are converted HyperCard stacks like address books >> >> or recipe files. The apps are personal and no one else uses them. Every 2 >> >> or 3 years they contact me because the app stops working, usually due to an >> >> incompatible OS update. I recompile the app, and sometimes make a few >> >> requested tweaks. Since a compile takes only a few minutes, and because I >> >> know these people personally, I charge almost nothing for these services. >> >> My last invoice for a rebuild and a minor change was $75. >> >> I do not want to tell them that they will need to spend hundreds of dollars >> >> more for a one time minor update. They will not want a subscription because >> >> it's years between changes. And because they are not companies and many are >> >> now retired, paying hundreds of dollars to maintain an address book is not >> >> feasible. I am very sensitive to their budget requirements. >> >> I'd like to propose a floor under which no royalty or subscription is >> >> required. A minimum charge of, say, $500 would yield $25 to LC at the 5% >> >> rate. A charge of $1000 would yield $50. >> >> -- >> >> Jacqueline Landman Gay |jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> >> >> HyperActive Software |http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > >> >> >> On July 26, 2024 6:04:30 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> >> > >>> wrote: >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> use-livecode mailing list >> >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From andre at andregarzia.com Mon Jul 29 14:35:44 2024 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:35:44 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a useless conversation. On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for > many, > many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is > boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look > to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > Have a good one! > > Douglas Ruisaard > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- https://www.andregarzia.com Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia From htorrado at networkdreams.net Mon Jul 29 15:14:35 2024 From: htorrado at networkdreams.net (Heriberto Torrado) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:14:35 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and authored several great books about it, you understand the software and its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, provides a small financial boost. In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and acquaintances. No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. I understand why Douglas is so mad. Best, Hery Best, Hery On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. >> Have a good one! >> >> Douglas Ruisaard >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 15:16:43 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:16:43 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question Message-ID: I have an export routine I am writing and it expects timestamps in the following format: 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z I can output LC dates and times in any format, but I personally have not seen this format before. The "T" is obviously just a delimited between the data and time, but my question is the "Z" at the end? Is this just a delimiter or does it indicate time zone (and in "zulu" time, i.e GMT)? Or something else? Anyone seen this timestamp format before and know the details of it? Thanks in advance, From curry at pair.com Mon Jul 29 15:35:46 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:35:46 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fe38e09-f1e6-491f-ae15-1364a9b3824d@pair.com> Paul: > it expects timestamps in the following format: > 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z Looks like MS Word Comments timestamp? If so, I can advise on the "Z"! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Mon Jul 29 15:39:23 2024 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:39:23 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701dae1ef$071a04f0$154e0ed0$@net> I would think Zulu... Sitemaps use the same format with a time zone offset instead of the "Z" 2022-11-15T11:41:03+05:00 Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Paul Dupuis via use-livecode Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 3:17 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Paul Dupuis Subject: Date and time format question I have an export routine I am writing and it expects timestamps in the following format: 2018-03-27T17:46:39Z I can output LC dates and times in any format, but I personally have not seen this format before. The "T" is obviously just a delimited between the data and time, but my question is the "Z" at the end? Is this just a delimiter or does it indicate time zone (and in "zulu" time, i.e GMT)? Or something else? Anyone seen this timestamp format before and know the details of it? Thanks in advance, _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Mon Jul 29 15:44:12 2024 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:44:12 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ... 'Utc date and time values uses "Z" (which stands for zero offset) to represent UTC.' (MS) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" https://livecodeconsulting.com/ From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 15:47:24 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:47:24 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c34646a-1cd6-468c-87ed-9d9c7eb2e118@researchware.com> Thank you all (and especially Curry for confirming what I though the Z was for) On 7/29/2024 3:44 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > ... 'Utc date and time values uses "Z" (which stands for zero offset) > to represent UTC.' (MS) > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Radically Innovative Christian LiveCode Development > "PASSION for Elegant, Efficient Code!" > https://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 17:09:37 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:09:37 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Follow up question/request: put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Jul 29 17:09:34 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:09:34 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: The way I read it was that Doulas was just bored with the conversation and not interested in having the messages pour into his inbox. So he has unsub'd temporarily while we chit-chat about it then come back once the cat in-fighting has gone away. He was upset with us, not the business model. Like he says effectively, this is the "USE" livecode list, not the "Moan About" forum ;) He's kinda right though, isn't he :/ On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:14, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create > small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people > here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For > many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, > provides a small financial boost. > > In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from > small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never > been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and > acquaintances. > > No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new > conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage > remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the > small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about > micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How > can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? > > With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. > > I understand why Douglas is so mad. > > Best, > Hery > > Best, > Hery > > On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > > useless conversation. > > > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for > >> many, > >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing > debacle is > >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who > look > >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to > >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > >> Have a good one! > >> > >> Douglas Ruisaard > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:37:56 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:37:56 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Follow up question/request: > > put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset > > Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? > > It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. > > If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:44:53 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:44:53 +0000 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: <1A8B75C3-A8DB-4D6A-B6E3-456AFEE78685@iotecdigital.com> Many are losing their ability to maintain internal apps, others are losing their ability to make at least a part of their living. I would not characterize that as cat in-fighting. On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Sean Cole via use-livecode wrote: once the cat in-fighting has gone away. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 17:55:42 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:55:42 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <0182B3D7-A431-416C-A9DB-5936AC426983@iotecdigital.com> That doesn’t work I’ll get back to you. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Convert it to dateitems, then back again. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Follow up question/request: >> >> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >> >> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >> >> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >> >> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 18:02:17 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:02:17 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. function refiXMLTimestamp   -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT   local tTimestamp   get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400   -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space   -- the day of the month   -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name   -- the four-digit year   -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons   -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time   set the itemDel to space   put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm   set the itemDel to comma   convert it to seconds   -- the year   -- the month number   -- the day of the month   -- the hour in 24-hour time   -- the minute   -- the second   -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth   put    char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset   delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset   put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset   -- adjust time to zulu/gmt   add tSecOffset to it   convert it to dateItems   -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC   put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it)           into tTimestamp -- the date in new format   put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format   return tTimestamp end refiXMLTimestamp On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Convert it to dateitems, then back again. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Follow up question/request: >> >> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >> >> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >> >> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >> >> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:14:31 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:14:31 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Simpler than that: on mouseUp put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset -- delete last word of tDateTime convert tDateTime to seconds put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset add tOffset to tDateTime convert tDateTime to long date and long time put tDateTime end mouseUp Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. > > I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. > > function refiXMLTimestamp > -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT > local tTimestamp > get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 > -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space > -- the day of the month > -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name > -- the four-digit year > -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons > -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time > set the itemDel to space > put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm > set the itemDel to comma > convert it to seconds > -- the year > -- the month number > -- the day of the month > -- the hour in 24-hour time > -- the minute > -- the second > -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth > put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset > delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset > put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset > -- adjust time to zulu/gmt > add tSecOffset to it > convert it to dateItems > -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC > put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format > put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format > return tTimestamp > end refiXMLTimestamp > > On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Follow up question/request: >>> >>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>> >>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>> >>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>> >>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:30:20 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:30:20 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: … > put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset … Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Simpler than that: > > on mouseUp > put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime > put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset > -- delete last word of tDateTime > convert tDateTime to seconds > put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset > add tOffset to tDateTime > convert tDateTime to long date and long time > put tDateTime > end mouseUp > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >> >> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >> >> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >> >> function refiXMLTimestamp >> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >> local tTimestamp >> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >> -- the day of the month >> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >> -- the four-digit year >> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >> set the itemDel to space >> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >> set the itemDel to comma >> convert it to seconds >> -- the year >> -- the month number >> -- the day of the month >> -- the hour in 24-hour time >> -- the minute >> -- the second >> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >> add tSecOffset to it >> convert it to dateItems >> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >> return tTimestamp >> end refiXMLTimestamp >> >> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Follow up question/request: >>>> >>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>> >>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>> >>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>> >>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 18:34:52 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:34:52 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: > > Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: > > … >> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset > … > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Simpler than that: >> >> on mouseUp >> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >> -- delete last word of tDateTime >> convert tDateTime to seconds >> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >> add tOffset to tDateTime >> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >> put tDateTime >> end mouseUp >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >>> >>> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >>> >>> function refiXMLTimestamp >>> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >>> local tTimestamp >>> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >>> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >>> -- the day of the month >>> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >>> -- the four-digit year >>> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >>> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >>> set the itemDel to space >>> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >>> set the itemDel to comma >>> convert it to seconds >>> -- the year >>> -- the month number >>> -- the day of the month >>> -- the hour in 24-hour time >>> -- the minute >>> -- the second >>> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >>> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >>> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >>> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >>> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >>> add tSecOffset to it >>> convert it to dateItems >>> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >>> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >>> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >>> return tTimestamp >>> end refiXMLTimestamp >>> >>> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>>> >>>> Bob S >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Follow up question/request: >>>>> >>>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>>> >>>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>>> >>>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Mon Jul 29 18:39:32 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:39:32 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: While I appreciate the feedback, we have spent millions of dollars in platform development and we are not going to sell the new platform with a business model that is not sustainable. That would not be in the interests of any of our customers, the community or the longevity of the platform as a whole. No amount of feedback from a small but vocal minority is going to change this situation. The majority of customers who have contacted us directly - and an order of magnitude more have done so than have posted publicly, including customers of all shapes and sizes, have been positive about the changes and willing to work with us. Our platform has been around in one form or another for an exceptionally long time. The industry is changing and we need to reinvent ourselves along with everyone else. We have done so in the past in different ways and with your support we can do so now. If you are one of those customers than I would like to thank you for your understanding, it is greatly appreciated. If you are an existing LiveCode customer with an active license who has been adversely affected by the new licensing changes, then please contact support at livecode.com where we will be very happy to assist you. It is possible there may be additional options available for you that are not available here in this public forum. Kind regards, Kevin PS. I'm not entirely sure I understand (yet) why this is such a deal breaker for you. At 200-300 euros a month adding a $150 (annual) seat is an additional 11.55 eur monthly cost. Nor is it clear you have applied the correct new licensing model for your situation. But anyway let's take this off list and we can go through it properly and see how we can help. Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 29/07/2024, 20:14, "use-livecode on behalf of Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and authored several great books about it, you understand the software and its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. Many of us are not full-time programmers; Livecode allows us to create small apps without relying on them for our livelihood. How many people here actually make a full living from developing apps with Livecode? For many, Livecode is simply a tool to support our work and, at best, provides a small financial boost. In the 15 years I've used Livecode, I have earned exactly $4,500 from small commercial desktop apps. The rest of the apps I created have never been sold; I often gave them away to clients, colleagues, family, and acquaintances. No one at my workplace will pay for a Livecode license under the new conditions. Even in my small IT company in Spain, which I manage remotely, it will be impossible for me to provide my clients with the small apps that I typically include in my services. We are talking about micro-IT maintenance services that cost 200 to 300 Euros per month. How can I justify charging them an additional $150 per seat? With the new licensing model, typical users like me may disappear forever. I understand why Douglas is so mad. Best, Hery Best, Hery On 7/29/24 14:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite impactful to > every developer here as it dictates how the move forward, hardless a > useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, >> many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing debacle is >> boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority of us who look >> to this forum for meaningful and useful information. I'm going to >> unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. >> Have a good one! >> >> Douglas Ruisaard >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 19:11:12 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:11:12 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Thanks! You math to do the offset is much simpler. On 7/29/2024 6:34 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: >> >> Actually its possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: >> >> >>> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset >> >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Simpler than that: >>> >>> on mouseUp >>> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >>> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >>> -- delete last word of tDateTime >>> convert tDateTime to seconds >>> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >>> add tOffset to tDateTime >>> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >>> put tDateTime >>> end mouseUp >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:02 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> dateItems does not contain the timezone offset, so you would need to get the timezone offset from the internet date (the only format I can find that has it) and the break the offset into minutes and hours and perform the math. >>>> >>>> I haven't tested this code (yet), but I think the seconds is the way to go. >>>> >>>> function refiXMLTimestamp >>>> -- Need to return the timestamp (current time) in UTC format, or YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu or GMT >>>> local tTimestamp >>>> get the internet date -- Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400 >>>> -- the day of the week followed by a comma, all other item delimited by a space >>>> -- the day of the month >>>> -- the three-letter abbreviation for the month name >>>> -- the four-digit year >>>> -- the time in 24-hour format, including seconds, delimited by colons >>>> -- the four-digit time zone relative to UTC (Greenwich) time >>>> set the itemDel to space >>>> put last item of it into tZoneOffset -- +/-hhmm >>>> set the itemDel to comma >>>> convert it to seconds >>>> -- the year >>>> -- the month number >>>> -- the day of the month >>>> -- the hour in 24-hour time >>>> -- the minute >>>> -- the second >>>> -- the numeric day of the week where Sunday is day 1, Monday is day 2, and so forth >>>> put char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset into tMinOffset >>>> delete char -1 to -2 of tZoneOffset >>>> put ((tZoneOffset*3600)+(tMinOffset*60)) into tSecOffset >>>> -- adjust time to zulu/gmt >>>> add tSecOffset to it >>>> convert it to dateItems >>>> -- Now convert to YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ where Z is zulu of GMT/UTC >>>> put format("%4u",item 1 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 2 of it) &"-"& format("%2u",item 3 of it) into tTimestamp -- the date in new format >>>> put "T"& format(%2u",item 4 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 5 of it) &":"& format("%2u",item 6 of it) &"Z" after tTimestamp -- the time in new format >>>> return tTimestamp >>>> end refiXMLTimestamp >>>> >>>> On 7/29/2024 5:37 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> Convert it to dateitems, then back again. >>>>> >>>>> Bob S >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 2:09 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow up question/request: >>>>>> >>>>>> put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 +0000)? >>>>>> >>>>>> It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and converting back? (I think this is the answer) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ambassador at fourthworld.com Mon Jul 29 19:12:11 2024 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:12:11 +0000 Subject: unsubscribing Message-ID: <5ed91a5aa619588f6d0dc243173fad3edc701b50@fourthworld.com> Whether discussing the viability of the LC platform is "boring" compared to every list subscriber receiving email notifications of the comings and goings of one member, he may have a point. The company appears firmly committed to their plans to replace it with a new platform. Any remaining details involving licensing fees have been requested to be handled in private. Any implications for attracting newcomers haven't been part of this discussion. And some of the business planning for folks uncertain about things may not involve using LiveCode at all. So perhaps a use-livecode list isn't the best place. If a consensus emerges that perhaps business planning conversations would be better handled elsewhere, I could dust off the forum at livecodejournal.com. Wouldn't take but a few minutes if enough people would prefer it. But while we're here in a thread titled "unsubscribing", let's take just a moment to review this list's history. Literally. Take a look: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ Look at the right-hand column. That's the size of each month's conversation here. We used to measured list activity in number of posts per day. Over the last year it's more easily measured in number of days between posts. Take a scroll through the last time a month's archive was 1 MB: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2006-March/date.html Look at all the names there, names of friends and colleagues who have moved on. Some of moved on from this planet, like the venerable Brahmanathaswami. Most have just moved on to something else. They didn't just unsubscribe from this list. They unsubscribed from the platform. So let's please remain kind to one another, and continue to seek meaningful solutions for practical business needs on all sides. If that can be done here, we're already here. If it's better moved, we can move it. -- Richard Gaskin FourthWorld.com Andre Garzia wrote: > what a horrible tone. Also, the issue of licensing is quite > impactful toevery developer here as it dictates how the move > forward, hardless a useless conversation. > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via wrote: > >> I am one of those "shadow" participants in the forum and have been for >> many, many years . only occasionally chiming in. This whole licensing >> debacle is boring and useless to (I would seriously guess) the majority >> of us who look to this forum for meaningful and useful information. >> I'm going to unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has >> run it course. >> Have a good one! >> From paul at researchware.com Mon Jul 29 19:50:29 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 19:50:29 -0400 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/2024 6:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Simpler than that: > > on mouseUp > put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime > put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset > -- delete last word of tDateTime > convert tDateTime to seconds > put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset > add tOffset to tDateTime > convert tDateTime to long date and long time > put tDateTime > end mouseUp (tOffset / 100)  isn't quite right as the time zone offset (i.e. something like -0400) is actually hhmm, so an offset like NewFoundLand -0330, if divided by 100 becomes 3.3 when it should be 3.5 since 30 minutes if half and hour. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Mon Jul 29 19:52:59 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:52:59 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: <0153CE15-3AB6-4FE5-B955-AC91BB61BBA9@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <19A5AE38-0A98-4262-8DF2-855BD3956B19@iotecdigital.com> Yeah but I think I got the math backwards. -0400 means the GMT is 4 hours AHEAD not behind. It should be subtract tOffset from tDateTime. Bob S > On Jul 29, 2024, at 4:11 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks! You math to do the offset is much simpler. > > On 7/29/2024 6:34 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> Meh never mind overthinking it. Both ways work. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:30 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: >>> >>> Actually it’s possible in some whacko time zones to get a rounding error by dividing first so: >>> >>> … >>>> put (tOffset *60 *60) /100 into tOffset >>> … >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2024, at 3:14 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> Simpler than that: >>>> >>>> on mouseUp >>>> put "Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:49:52 -0400" into tDateTime >>>> put word -1 of tDateTime into tOffset >>>> -- delete last word of tDateTime >>>> convert tDateTime to seconds >>>> put (tOffset / 100) *60 *60 into tOffset >>>> add tOffset to tDateTime >>>> convert tDateTime to long date and long time >>>> put tDateTime >>>> end mouseUp >>>> >>>> Bob S >>>> >>>> From mailkeliko01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 01:41:21 2024 From: mailkeliko01 at gmail.com (Riko Abadi) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 12:41:21 +0700 Subject: Clarification Needed: Coding vs. Drag-and-Drop in LiveCode Create Universal Message-ID: Hello Kevin, Does LiveCode Create Universal mean that we can no longer write code and have to rely solely on drag-and-drop like no-code platforms? I believe no-code platforms are a waste of time since they are ultimately built with code. From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Tue Jul 30 03:00:55 2024 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 02:00:55 -0500 Subject: Date and time format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19102712458.2814.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Similar to Bob's but includes the delimiters: -- create UTC timestamp: -- format: "2013-07-20T00:00:00Z" put the seconds into tTime convert tTime to dateitems subtract (char 1 to -3 of last word of the internet date) from item 4 of tTime convert tTime to dateitems set the numberformat to "00" put item 1 of tTime &"-"& (item 2 of tTime)+0 &"-"& (item 3 of tTime)+0 & "T" & (item 4 of tTime)+0 &":"& \ (item 5 of tTime)+0 &":"& (item 6 of tTime)+0 & "Z" into tTimestamp -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On July 29, 2024 4:11:37 PM Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > Follow up question/request: > > put the internet date into tTimestamp -- stores something like Mon, 29 > Jul 2024 16:49:52 -0400, where the -0400 is the time zone offset > > Anyone have some already written code to convert this to a time in GMT > (i.e where the time zone offset is +0000, i.e. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:49:52 > +0000)? > > It is adding the offset to the hours and minutes, but you have to handle > carry over, potentially adding or subtracting a day. > > If the best approach converting to seconds and the doing the math and > converting back? (I think this is the answer) > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Tue Jul 30 04:13:02 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 09:13:02 +0100 Subject: Clarification Needed: Coding vs. Drag-and-Drop in LiveCode Create Universal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Riko, This is an excellent question. While Create does include drag-drop no-code tools, it also includes the Script Editor. So you have a choice. Our goal is that you use the point and click actions for those things it does well and write scripts where required. There are two things that are really important here. Firstly, the Actions Editor (our name for our drag-drop tool) actually writes scripts using the LiveCode Script language you already know and love. So you can always go into the script editor afterwards and edit them. Secondly, you can insert scripts as a step within the actions flow. So we make it really easy to go back and forward. Our vision is to provide a no-code tool with all the productivity benefits and ease-of-learning that this brings for routine tasks. Yet without any of the limits inherent to most drag-drop coding systems. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 06:41, "use-livecode on behalf of Riko Abadi via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Hello Kevin, Does LiveCode Create Universal mean that we can no longer write code and have to rely solely on drag-and-drop like no-code platforms? I believe no-code platforms are a waste of time since they are ultimately built with code. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de Tue Jul 30 06:20:32 2024 From: Bernd.Niggemann at uni-wh.de (Niggemann, Bernd) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 10:20:32 +0000 Subject: Date and time format question Message-ID: <26228F62-867E-4D60-87A9-89472855E195@uni-wh.de> Similar to Bob's and Jaque's but includes the delimiters: Additionally adds Minutes and +- offsets E.g. Nepal is 5 Hours 45 Minutes ahead of GMT/UTC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- create UTC timestamp: -- format: "2013-07-20T00:00:00Z" put the internet date into tTime put char 1 of the last word of tTime into tAddSubtract if tAddSubtract is "-" then put true into tAdd end if put char 2 to 3 of the last word of tTime into tHoursOff put char 4 to 5 of the last word of tTime into tMinutesOff convert tTime to dateItems if tAdd then add tHoursOff to item 4 of tTime add tMinutesOff to item 5 of tTime else subtract tHoursOff from item 4 of tTime subtract tMinutesOff from item 5 of tTime end if convert tTime to dateItems set the numberformat to "00" put item 1 of tTime &"-"& (item 2 of tTime)+0 &"-"& (item 3 of tTime)+0 & "T" & (item 4 of tTime)+0 &":"& \ (item 5 of tTime)+0 &":"& (item 6 of tTime)+0 & "Z" into tTimestamp put tTimeStamp ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kind regards Bernd From dvglasgow at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 09:14:57 2024 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 14:14:57 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting Message-ID: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn From andre at andregarzia.com Tue Jul 30 13:24:58 2024 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 18:24:58 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: Heriberto, On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to voice too much in terms of business decisions. It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. -- https://www.andregarzia.com Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia From tom at makeshyft.com Tue Jul 30 15:05:16 2024 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:05:16 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: We could make a compelling case for airing business and licensing details in public, or in private. For Livecode, as a company that is already poor on the spectrum of transparency and communication, and at times truth-telling. (though improving) I vote NO to taking the conversations private. If you are wondering what I mean ..... No public roadmap on what is going to get done or not going to get done any time soon. Lack of candor is all statements made, such as not addressing the fact that we have funded features you have not delivered (when telling us you spend more on the platform than you make.) The community as a whole has no clue if the script compiler will ever happen......... Those are 2 examples. Sooooooo ... I say having to make public statements as part of the new future of livecode might be a good thing. Why is anyone trying to decide what gets talked about here and what doesn't to begin with? Is it spam? no. Is it livecode related, yes. On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 1:26 PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Heriberto, > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > -- > https://www.andregarzia.com > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From thatkeith at mac.com Tue Jul 30 15:11:21 2024 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 20:11:21 +0100 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> Message-ID: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has come if you're no longer subscribed? k From kevin at livecode.com Tue Jul 30 17:32:52 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 22:32:52 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? Cheers David G David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York LinkedIn _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Jul 30 18:10:57 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 00:10:57 +0200 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Message-ID: Kevin, please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? Regards, Matthias > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dougr at telus.net Tue Jul 30 18:23:17 2024 From: dougr at telus.net (Douglas A. Ruisaard) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:23:17 -0700 Subject: unsubscribing In-Reply-To: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> References: <3a5c01dae1dd$cf95e460$6ec1ad20$@telus.net> <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291@mac.com> Message-ID: <3e2701dae2cf$13e3ba10$3bab2e30$@telus.net> Old men get to be grumpy ... it's one of the few "benefits" of getting to my age, that and being selectively hard of hearing, seriously wondering why youngsters get tattoos on their faces and admiring beautiful women without them being offended. I actually *do* have this forum's incoming already filtered to a certain degree but really felt that the topic had run its course sufficiently to have the members "move on". I have, over the past few decades, greatly admired and benefitted from the sage advice, examples and knowledge that members of this group have selflessly donated to our collective skills and successes. But the licensing thread seemed to have become redundant, unproductive and (IMHO) having little relevance to the "normal" precise and valuable guidance and lessons I often have found amongst these discussions ... hence my response. It is a misunderstanding that I was criticizing the nature of the topic ... simply the duration, lack of direction and (to me) its eventual deficiency of relevance to what I believe to be the beneficial aspects of the "normal" technical topics presented and discussed. If anything, I felt that the topic content may have produced much more confusion and anxiety in many of the participants rather than aiding them in understanding what seems to be a fairly complex subject and highly specific to individual environments. I forgot to mention the acceptable advantage of being astonishingly selfish once you reach your golden years and beyond. As to when I will rejoin ... once I get bored with NOT hearing the wisdom of the members. Interesting that shortly after my diatribe, that topic seems to have dissipated. I continue to wish everyone success in their endeavors and will, no doubt, open the window on your knowledge in the future. Douglas Ruisaard -----Original Message----- From: Keith Martin Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 12:11 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Douglas A. Ruisaard Subject: Re: unsubscribing > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm going to > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run its course. Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has come if you're no longer subscribed? k From kevin at livecode.com Wed Jul 31 12:11:36 2024 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 17:11:36 +0100 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> Message-ID: <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> There are three packages. Create Native is our desktop tool for building desktop/mobile/server. Create Cloud for building Web apps. That’s what Xavvi now is. And Universal is the combination the two. Native will deploy to HTML5 either via the standalone builder or our cloud (with one click) if you have a Universal license. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Build Amazing Things On 30/07/2024, 23:10, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: Kevin, please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? Regards, Matthias > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode >: > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" > > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:01:41 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:01:41 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library Message-ID: Hi all. Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] put tLine +1 into tNewLine if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex else put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgNextIndexOfLine getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] put tLine -1 into tNewLine if tNewLine <1 then put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex else put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgPrevIndexOfLine You are welcome. :-) Bob S From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:22:26 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:22:26 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F0F9F63-DE07-4609-8849-11A7C0BBFA96@iotecdigital.com> Correction, dgLines is not a property of a datagrid. The dgHilitedLines is, but are only sequential when the data is first loaded. If resorted by clicking a column header, the dgHilitedLines will no longer be sequential. Bob S On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 14:29:02 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:29:02 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. Bob S > On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi all. > > Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. > > Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. > > And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. > > So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: > > getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] > put tLine +1 into tNewLine > > if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then > put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex > else > put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex > end if > > return tIndex > end dgNextIndexOfLine > > getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] > put tLine -1 into tNewLine > > if tNewLine <1 then > put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex > else > put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex > end if > > return tIndex > end dgPrevIndexOfLine > > You are welcome. :-) > > Bob S > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alekseyfomichev53 at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 14:29:08 2024 From: alekseyfomichev53 at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:29:08 +0000 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Schwoertzig, how are you?! Contact me on this website ! ср, 31 июл. 2024 г. в 16:00, : > Send use-livecode mailing list submissions to > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > use-livecode-owner at lists.runrev.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of use-livecode digest..." > > > you can find the archives for this list at: > > http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/ > > and search them using this link: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/use-livecode at lists.runrev.com/ > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: unsubscribing (Andre Garzia) > 2. Re: unsubscribing (Tom Glod) > 3. Re: unsubscribing (Keith Martin) > 4. Re: Livecode Create hosting (Kevin Miller) > 5. Re: Livecode Create hosting (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) > 6. RE: unsubscribing (Douglas A. Ruisaard) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 18:24:58 +0100 > From: Andre Garzia > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: > < > CAF3jwTnO8B-xBO+bn8+dsOv98Sd-ACm_6NHBsstY1CE_b7QS9g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Heriberto, > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping away > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the short-lived > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had a > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about being > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades and > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > -- > https://www.andregarzia.com > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:05:16 -0400 > From: Tom Glod > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: > PLMAP_Y46GexM30mF54+-A at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > We could make a compelling case for airing business and licensing details > in public, or in private. > For Livecode, as a company that is already poor on the spectrum of > transparency and communication, and at times truth-telling. > (though improving) > I vote NO to taking the conversations private. > > If you are wondering what I mean ..... > > No public roadmap on what is going to get done or not going to get done any > time soon. > Lack of candor is all statements made, such as not addressing the fact that > we have funded features you have not delivered (when telling us you spend > more on the platform than you make.) > The community as a whole has no clue if the script compiler will ever > happen......... > Those are 2 examples. > > Sooooooo ... I say having to make public statements as part of the new > future of livecode might be a good thing. > > Why is anyone trying to decide what gets talked about here and what > doesn't to begin with? > Is it spam? no. Is it livecode related, yes. > > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 1:26?PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Heriberto, > > > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 at 20:16, Heriberto Torrado via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Andre. As a dedicated Livecode user who has worked at Livecode and > > > authored several great books about it, you understand the software and > > > its community well. You must recognize that many of us are very > > > frustrated by the new seat subscription model. The impact of these > > > subscriptions is absolutely brutal for us. > > > > > > > I totally do, but as someone who has been quite close to the team, and > > worked for LiveCode in the past, and now works for Canela, I'm keeping > away > > from this discussion since I'm of course extremely biased. > > > > To be honest my favourite thing the LC team ever built was the > short-lived > > Dreamcard. I still giggle when I think of it. > > > > I really avoid playing armchair CEO. I was never a successful CEO, I had > a > > company that I never launched and that says more about me than about > being > > a CEO. I know many CEOs who have kept their business afloat for decades > and > > that includes both Kevin and also Mark, my current employer. I try not to > > voice too much in terms of business decisions. > > > > It is for sure a pivotal moment and what I hope is that the new platform > > empowers all the developers here into new and faster successes. > > > > -- > > https://www.andregarzia.com > > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 20:11:21 +0100 > From: Keith Martin > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > Message-ID: <3FF7BFF6-766B-4E0E-A4E8-8631ADFCD291 at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I'm going to > > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run it course. > > Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to > archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel > things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has > come if you're no longer subscribed? > > k > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 22:32:52 +0100 > From: Kevin Miller > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Livecode Create hosting > Message-ID: <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449 at livecode.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. > That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can > embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). > For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our > cloud. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > ?On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, > but exactly what does ?hosting? mean in this context? > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? > Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, > or some other sort of thing? > > > Cheers > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > LinkedIn < > https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/>> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 00:10:57 +0200 > From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de > To: How to use LiveCode > Subject: Re: Livecode Create hosting > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Kevin, > > please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. > I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might > have missed something. > Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the > development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? > > Regards, > Matthias > > > > > > Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>: > > > > Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our > cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or > you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted > by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in > our cloud. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ > http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > > > > > > ?On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via > use-livecode" use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com> on behalf of > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > wrote: > > > > > > Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but > me, but exactly what does ?hosting? mean in this context? > > > > > > Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? > Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, > or some other sort of thing? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > David G > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > > > > > > LinkedIn < > https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow/>> > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode < > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:23:17 -0700 > From: "Douglas A. Ruisaard" > To: "'Keith Martin'" , "'How to use LiveCode'" > > Subject: RE: unsubscribing > Message-ID: <3e2701dae2cf$13e3ba10$3bab2e30$@telus.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Old men get to be grumpy ... it's one of the few "benefits" of getting to > my > age, that and being selectively hard of hearing, seriously wondering why > youngsters get tattoos on their faces and admiring beautiful women without > them being offended. I actually *do* have this forum's incoming already > filtered to a certain degree but really felt that the topic had run its > course sufficiently to have the members "move on". I have, over the past > few decades, greatly admired and benefitted from the sage advice, examples > and knowledge that members of this group have selflessly donated to our > collective skills and successes. But the licensing thread seemed to have > become redundant, unproductive and (IMHO) having little relevance to the > "normal" precise and valuable guidance and lessons I often have found > amongst these discussions ... hence my response. > > It is a misunderstanding that I was criticizing the nature of the topic ... > simply the duration, lack of direction and (to me) its eventual deficiency > of relevance to what I believe to be the beneficial aspects of the "normal" > technical topics presented and discussed. If anything, I felt that the > topic content may have produced much more confusion and anxiety in many of > the participants rather than aiding them in understanding what seems to be > a > fairly complex subject and highly specific to individual environments. I > forgot to mention the acceptable advantage of being astonishingly selfish > once you reach your golden years and beyond. > > As to when I will rejoin ... once I get bored with NOT hearing the wisdom > of > the members. Interesting that shortly after my diatribe, that topic seems > to have dissipated. I continue to wish everyone success in their endeavors > and will, no doubt, open the window on your knowledge in the future. > Douglas Ruisaard > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Martin > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 12:11 PM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Douglas A. Ruisaard > Subject: Re: unsubscribing > > > On 29 Jul 2024, at 18:37, Douglas A. Ruisaard via use-livecode > wrote: > > > > I'm going to > > unsubscribe now and (maybe) rejoin once this nonsense has run its course. > > Might be a bit late to suggest this, but why not set up an email rule to > archive/trash/whatever these emails, then remove the rule when you feel > things have calmed down? For one thing, how will you know that time has > come > if you're no longer subscribed? > > k > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > ------------------------------ > > End of use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 > ********************************************* > From jeff at siphonophore.com Wed Jul 31 14:54:13 2024 From: jeff at siphonophore.com (Jeff Reynolds) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 14:54:13 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future Message-ID: <3D20A158-CB00-4959-901E-B72242BF4A1B@siphonophore.com> I posted about my more odd ball situation with live code. Kevin answered with some solutions for seats for exhibit machines which could be a solution, but unfortunately I doubt the royalty solution for educational content software would not fly with the clients. As I stated it’s all ok since I’m sort of sliding into retirement and this is just sort of a door closer of a door already swinging shut. But having worked with MetaCard/Livecode for 30+ years as my business and chatting with a few off list, I could not help stop thinking thru the issues and looking for solutions as well as just standing back and looking at the bigger picture some. Live code has been changing slowly for a long time from a do everything super HyperTalk to more of a main stream rapid application builder. This is following the trends in the industry and there’s and app for that culture in general. The evolution to the Create system and the new licensing structure just cement all that in place. I get it it’s the way LC must go to survive as a business. I’m sure the new systems would have the potential to keep doing my work, but I’m sure multimedia aspects that are central to my projects will not be super high priority for newer versions of Create. AI stuff I see as mainly getting in the way for me, but hopefully it can be turned off or pushed aside when needed to. New licensing and Create direction would definitely not be a revenue generator for me just a lot more costs and hassles and I would most likely end up heading out to a new platform which wouldn’t be a large investment with no increase in revenue. But it made me step back and look at my clients some more and think. One issue I had not thought about in all this kurfuffle is how would my clients react to the new LC outside of the licensing costs and the hit by the bus questions pop up. Being a one hand clapping with all the programming on our projects I always have to be ready for these questions from clients and have potential solutions ready. The smart client always ask these questions and I try to only work with smart clients if I can. One, they would ask ok with this is a subscription model now, what happens if LC jacks the price way up here next year or worse goes out of business. A rapid price rise would be tough as these projects once done or released are sort of set, no new budgets or funding to pay for a higher subscription is there with my clients. I could see Kevin and team coming up with a solution for those of us stuck in transition to get some lock ins, exceptions, and such. It also sounds like as long as things are kept local things would keep running in LC’s demise and it would then require the use of a different coding system for the next project, but as long as the current projects are up and running that’s ok as they usually just keep running on with little or no fixes needed. Ok, that hit by the bus question answered. The other big hit by the bus question that then came to mind was the one most often asked, what if I get hit by the bus. My solution to this has always been to have cultivated a few friends and colleagues who I know could easily do my work if paid for it decently and give that list to my clients. Dangerous some would say, but I’m careful with who I work with and trust my clients. I’m usually cheaper to the client due to the fact I do 3 or 4 roles on the projects and for them to hire someone just for coding and the others to do the rest it would get expensive and more management and potential issues and my education clients are in slim budgets, so I doubt they would try to use the list other than if I were hit by the bus (AFAIK none ever did anything with the lists). But now I’m realizing with the large turn in LC direction cemented in place there probably won’t be any odd balls out there in the future with the new business app world that I can use for this list in the future (they will most likely migrated elsewhere). This, I realized was a more important gotcha if I were continuing in my business. If the licensing issues could get solved this one would be a hard one to get around and end up forcing me off into a new system anyway. Just some knoodling I’ve been doing and thought I would throw it out for others odd balls to naw on or just ignore it. Also just wanted to thank this list for the many years of great information sharing and help with problems. I only had a few issues ever that I brought here or had solutions for others, but I learned tons from the information shared here, many times not stuff I needed at the moment, but later useful when I did! Folks here also kept this a great list to keep looking at over many, many years. Thanks. And a big thanks to Kevin and all the LC team, it’s been grand to keep on using HyperTalk to do more and more things that folks would say “you can’t do that with HyperTalk!”, but then you could show them you could… best wishes in the new course charted. So long ant thanks for all the fish! Jeff From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Jul 31 15:04:53 2024 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 21:04:53 +0200 Subject: Livecode Create hosting In-Reply-To: <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> References: <8DCA8A73-298C-46E2-850F-4AD04BC4ECA0@gmail.com> <41DE05C1-37E7-451E-8302-9624FBF4A449@livecode.com> <3B9EF8FC-846C-45DA-8AA6-F6D15D3C3E92@livecode.com> Message-ID: <72719F86-926E-4213-924A-71AD19CD6442@m-r-d.de> Kevin, Thank you very much for clarifying. I was not sure about HTML5 as deployment platform. Regards, Matthias > Am 31.07.2024 um 18:11 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode : > > There are three packages. Create Native is our desktop tool for building desktop/mobile/server. Create Cloud for building Web apps. That’s what Xavvi now is. And Universal is the combination the two. Native will deploy to HTML5 either via the standalone builder or our cloud (with one click) if you have a Universal license. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Build Amazing Things > > > > > On 30/07/2024, 23:10, "use-livecode on behalf of matthias rebbe via use-livecode" on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > > > Kevin, > > > please excuse, if this already was asked and answered. > I did not follow the progress of LC Create (Xavii) and therefore I might have missed something. > Will LCC Native be able to deploy also to web/Html5 or was the development of that platform stopped because of LCC Cloud? > > > Regards, > Matthias > > > > > > > > >> Am 30.07.2024 um 23:32 schrieb Kevin Miller via use-livecode >: >> >> Create has the option to host your app, media and data store in our cloud. That means that users can navigate to it via a link we generate, or you can embed it within one of your web pages (with the embedded app hosted by us). For desktop/mobile apps, the data store and media can be hosted in our cloud. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com > ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> LiveCode: Build Amazing Things >> >> >> >> >> On 30/07/2024, 14:14, "use-livecode on behalf of David V Glasgow via use-livecode" > > on behalf of use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> wrote: >> >> >> Apologies if this has already been explained, or is obvious to all but me, but exactly what does ‘hosting’ mean in this context? >> >> >> Would users of my apps need to be able to access my Create space online? Or is it my dev workspace, or an optional/mirrored workspace, an app store, or some other sort of thing? >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> David G >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> David Glasgow >> Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist >> Honorary Professor, Nottingham Trent University >> Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit >> Carlton Glasgow Partnership >> Director, Child & Family Training, York >> >> >> >> >> LinkedIn >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at researchware.com Wed Jul 31 15:20:57 2024 From: paul at researchware.com (Paul Dupuis) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 15:20:57 -0400 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. On 7/31/2024 2:29 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. > > Bob S > > >> On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi all. >> >> Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? Its not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. >> >> Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there wont be another line hilited until your code sets it. >> >> And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. >> >> So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: >> >> getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] >> put tLine +1 into tNewLine >> >> if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >> else >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >> end if >> >> return tIndex >> end dgNextIndexOfLine >> >> getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] >> put tLine -1 into tNewLine >> >> if tNewLine <1 then >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >> else >> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >> end if >> >> return tIndex >> end dgPrevIndexOfLine >> >> You are welcome. :-) >> >> Bob S >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 31 15:34:45 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:34:45 +0100 Subject: use-livecode Digest, Vol 250, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! I wonder how that got past moderation. Heather is extra-ordinarily busy at the moment though. :D On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:29, Jess via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Schwoertzig, how are you?! Contact me on this website > > .... > > ср, 31 июл. 2024 г. в 16:00, : > > From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 31 15:59:07 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 15:59:07 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for instance, as da From jbv at souslelogo.com Wed Jul 31 16:02:03 2024 From: jbv at souslelogo.com (jbv at souslelogo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 16:02:03 -0400 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> References: <6387b9e0-8c9d-4cee-a863-d47caffb12a2@networkdreams.net> <850c479048d729c6a70837db1dc94787@souslelogo.com> <26d7475d4a04475a0e9cbc59e9e5c688@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for instance, as far as I understand, I can deploy for all platforms. But in my situation I only need MacOS and Windows. So I have the feeling that I will ask my clients to pay for stuff they don't need... Please correct me if I'm wrong. jbv From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 16:15:36 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:15:36 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Hmmm… I will look into that. Another way is to record the current index(s), set the dgData of the grid to it’s own data (resets the lines to the visible order) then restore the hilited index(s), get the hilted line, THEN get the next line. That seems too convoluted so I will look into using indexes. Bob S > On Jul 31, 2024, at 12:20 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" > You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. > > > On 7/31/2024 2:29 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> never mind. I just realized that if the datagrid gets re-sorted, there IS NO WAY to determine the next visible line in a datagrid. Kinda sucks. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Jul 31, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi all. >>> >>> Has anyone tried to determine the index of the next line of a datagrid? It’s not as straightforward as you might think. When data is first loaded into a datagrid, the dgIndexes are only going to be in numeric order if the sort order of the datagrid is the same as the data you are loading. Otherwise, the indexes will be all mixed up, but the dgLines of the datagrid will ALWAYS be in the order of the visible rows. >>> >>> Sure you can just add one to the current dgHilitedLine, but what if you want to know the index of the next line just before deleting the current one? You cannot delete the line first because then the line numbers change, and there won’t be another line hilited until your code sets it. >>> >>> And while there is a dgIndexOfLine property built in, there is no dgLineOfIndex! Not only that, but there is a dgIndexes property, but there is no dgLines property! How odd is that?? The goal is to determine the index of the next visible line where the line numbers are no longer sequential. >>> >>> So I wrote some very simple virtual properties that ought to be a part of the datagrid library. You can put these in the script of a datagrid itself, or if you are brave enough to use the inline behaviors feature of datagrids as I do, you can put them in your own datagrid custom library. But really they belong in the built-in datagrid library itself. They are: >>> >>> getProp dgNextIndexOfLine [tLine] >>> put tLine +1 into tNewLine >>> >>> if tNewLine > the dgNumberOfLines of me then >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >>> else >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >>> end if >>> >>> return tIndex >>> end dgNextIndexOfLine >>> >>> getProp dgPrevIndexOfLine [tLine] >>> put tLine -1 into tNewLine >>> >>> if tNewLine <1 then >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tLine] of me into tIndex >>> else >>> put the dgIndexOfLine [tNewLine] of me into tIndex >>> end if >>> >>> return tIndex >>> end dgPrevIndexOfLine >>> >>> You are welcome. :-) >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Jul 31 16:34:41 2024 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:34:41 +0000 Subject: Proposed update to datagrid library In-Reply-To: References: <1BE9930A-7F5D-4C0C-AF70-50BAC5D93820@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Not nearly as sexy, but it does what I need it to. getProp dgNextIndex [tIndex] put the dgIndexes of me into tIndexes put itemOffset(tIndex, tIndexes) into tItem if tItem = the the number of items of tIndexes then put item tItem of tIndexes into tIndex else put item tItem +1 of tIndexes into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgNextIndex getProp dgPrevIndex [tIndex] put the dgIndexes of me into tIndexes put itemOffset(tIndex, tIndexes) into tItem if tItem = 1 then put item tItem of tIndexes into tIndex else put item tItem -1 of tIndexes into tIndex end if return tIndex end dgPrevIndex > On Jul 31, 2024, at 12:20 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode wrote: > > My Datagrid skills are not great, but i thought the thedgIndexes ofgroup"DataGrid" The Dictionary says "Returns the internal list of indexes in the order in which they appear in the data grid" > You also have the dgIndexOfLine[pLine] to get the index of the line (hilited line or next line or whatever). Then find the index returned by dgIndexOfLine in the dgIndexes, which will return a line number in the list of indexes and then add 1 to that to the the line in the dgIndexes of the next index. > > From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Jul 31 17:15:55 2024 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 22:15:55 +0100 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> References: <934bec1a615a8565c8d2199f99b97339@souslelogo.com> Message-ID: <5F6D6CB5-DF21-476D-B0F9-186E3E6CFB67@pidigital.co.uk> That’s called “value for money”. You get the thing you want for the cost of what we were paying (approx) plus the potential for a heap more if they ever Do want or need it in the future. I think it’s pretty good. Especially for less than $40/mth. In context, I pay for Adobe creative cloud at £57/mth. Every month. But I pretty much only use After Effects, photoshop and occasionally Illustrator and Premiere Pro. Very very occasionally I use Dreamweaver and Acrobat Pro. But there are tonnes of other apps I am paying for that sit there that I have never used and never likely to. But I might one day. I also pay for plugin packs I pay on subscription. 90% of the plugins I have probably never used. But I have them for when I do. I have wondered if it might be good for LC to offer a one off lifetime payment for 9&10 when they finally go unsupported. Just a thought. We’ll have to wait and see. All the best Sean Cole > On 31 Jul 2024, at 21:02, jbv via use-livecode wrote: > > I checked the cost of the licensing options and a very > disappointing thing is that if I choose "Native" for > instance, as far as I understand, I can deploy for > all platforms. But in my situation I only need MacOS > and Windows. > So I have the feeling that I will ask my clients to > pay for stuff they don't need... > Please correct me if I'm wrong. > jbv > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dochawk at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 20:51:50 2024 From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 17:51:50 -0700 Subject: Livecode Future In-Reply-To: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> References: <6c3fdd85-666e-43f3-8493-7007186b78a8@networkdreams.net> Message-ID: Heriberto honked, > In the early 90s, I detected a bug when installing Microsoft Office alongside Corel Draw on Windows 95. I called Microsoft, and two weeks later, I received a diskette with a patch that resolved the issue. Somewhere in my files I have a (typed!) letter from Microsoft from 1989 or 1990 responding to my suggestion as a software developer suggesting that BASIC be attached to MS Word. The gist was that it was an intriguing idea, but they had no plans for such a thing. At the time, I was using hypercard to pre-process information to a feeder file for word’s mail merge for part of my filing, and stepping through cards to print the rest kevin kibitzed, > Don't forget we have videos that explain both the rationale and the model. https://future.livecode.com You say the as if expecting someone to view a video to get information wasn’t an act of Evil . . . :) As for myself, I certainly won’t be going to the new platform; it has nothing useful for me, and I abhor the notion of a computer or “AI” interfering with code (in fact, this should be very tightly regulated). My project never ended up at a full commercial release. It’s essentially done, but I would have had to self-implement two of the still-missing features (encrypted postgres session and exporting a pdf from the pdf widget [no, putting it back at 72dpi does not count!]). I pretty much stopped cold when the pdf widget failed to be printable, making only the changes I needed for my own practice, and now I’m retired with absolutely no interest on starting a new business or having around to support software. I could reimplement my engine in less than a week in just about anything that has decent string support (HyperTalk, BASIC, Fortran, Python, whatever). Another day or two for a translator to export the internal functions on how data relates and is calculated. And then whatever method for superimposing my own text on pdf, and converting to PDF/A. The only interest I have in my supposedly lifetime “Indy” license, which I bought because livecode seemed to be in a crunch and needed it, is future toy project for myself. And I just can’t see paying hundreds of dollars a year for something I probably won’t even use most years! The only things I use that weren’t in HyperCard 2.0 or SuperCard 1.5 (in which I implemented this years ago) are groups, behaviors and chained behaviors, postures, and the in-memory SQLite. I have absolutely no use for any web connection, servers (other than postgres), or AI.