From kaveh at rivervalleytechnologies.com Wed Sep 1 02:27:13 2021 From: kaveh at rivervalleytechnologies.com (Kaveh) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:27:13 +0100 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth, I am also an open source skeptic. Look what happened to Open Office. It died because no one wanted to work on it. But please simplify the pricing. And I am not a fan of subscription prices either. Let me buy and upgrade if I want when a new version is out. LiveCode is magical. (From a beta HyperCard user!) On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 01:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I honestly never quite saw how offering a free version alongside > commercial versions was going to fly. People need to eat, and if you give > something away for free, people will simply not pay for it. > > I did the free version for a couple years, mainly because what I create > helps almost exclusively myself, and I do not sell anything. I am on Indy > for a couple years now because I feel bad about using the software for > free, and I feel like I need to contribute to the "cause", which is not > purely altruistic by the way. The loss of Livecode would pretty much mean > the end of my development hobby. > > Overall I welcome this new approach. If you are using LC for free, please > consider getting on a subscription, especially if you develop regularly. > > Bob S > > > > On Aug 31, 2021, at 09:16 , Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I just read and watched Kevin's announcement about LC licensing. > > The value for us in the OSS license was simply a greater level of > assurance > > that there would be longevity in the event that LC the company failed, as > > the source was still there for someone else to pick up. I think that's > how > > MC -> RR. > > So I am disappointed that the code will not be out in the open in the > event > > of a business failure, however, I'm also respectful of the need for more > > revenue. > > I will leave it to others to discuss the failure of LC to deliver x,y,z > and > > how that plays into the situation. > > I am also not privy to a recent P/L, so I am in a bad position to opine > on > > what they should do or prioritize. > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Kaveh Bazargan PhD Director River Valley Technologies ? Twitter ? LinkedIn ? ORCID *Accelerating the Communication of Research* From dave at davewood.nz Wed Sep 1 02:47:12 2021 From: dave at davewood.nz (David Wood) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:47:12 +1200 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04402C53-A4E4-493A-A0C9-E6526F276DB3@davewood.nz> > LiveCode is magical. (From a beta HyperCard user!) Gosh! I was also a Hypercard user. But a beta Hypercard user! WOW! Dave > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 01:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I honestly never quite saw how offering a free version alongside >> commercial versions was going to fly. People need to eat, and if you give >> something away for free, people will simply not pay for it. >> >> I did the free version for a couple years, mainly because what I create >> helps almost exclusively myself, and I do not sell anything. I am on Indy >> for a couple years now because I feel bad about using the software for >> free, and I feel like I need to contribute to the "cause", which is not >> purely altruistic by the way. The loss of Livecode would pretty much mean >> the end of my development hobby. >> >> Overall I welcome this new approach. If you are using LC for free, please >> consider getting on a subscription, especially if you develop regularly. >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Aug 31, 2021, at 09:16 , Mike Kerner via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>> I just read and watched Kevin's announcement about LC licensing. >>> The value for us in the OSS license was simply a greater level of >> assurance >>> that there would be longevity in the event that LC the company failed, as >>> the source was still there for someone else to pick up. I think that's >> how >>> MC -> RR. >>> So I am disappointed that the code will not be out in the open in the >> event >>> of a business failure, however, I'm also respectful of the need for more >>> revenue. >>> I will leave it to others to discuss the failure of LC to deliver x,y,z >> and >>> how that plays into the situation. >>> I am also not privy to a recent P/L, so I am in a bad position to opine >> on >>> what they should do or prioritize. >>> >>> -- >>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth >>> On the second day, God created the oceans. >>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, >>> and did a little diving. >>> And God said, "This is good." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > Kaveh Bazargan PhD > Director > River Valley Technologies ? Twitter > ? LinkedIn > ? ORCID > > *Accelerating the Communication of Research* > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From richmondmathewson at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 04:13:06 2021 From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond Mathewson) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:13:06 +0300 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: <04402C53-A4E4-493A-A0C9-E6526F276DB3@davewood.nz> References: <04402C53-A4E4-493A-A0C9-E6526F276DB3@davewood.nz> Message-ID: LibreOffice is alive and kicking. On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:48 David Wood via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > LiveCode is magical. (From a beta HyperCard user!) > > > Gosh! I was also a Hypercard user. But a beta Hypercard user! WOW! > > Dave > > > > > > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 01:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I honestly never quite saw how offering a free version alongside > >> commercial versions was going to fly. People need to eat, and if you > give > >> something away for free, people will simply not pay for it. > >> > >> I did the free version for a couple years, mainly because what I create > >> helps almost exclusively myself, and I do not sell anything. I am on > Indy > >> for a couple years now because I feel bad about using the software for > >> free, and I feel like I need to contribute to the "cause", which is not > >> purely altruistic by the way. The loss of Livecode would pretty much > mean > >> the end of my development hobby. > >> > >> Overall I welcome this new approach. If you are using LC for free, > please > >> consider getting on a subscription, especially if you develop regularly. > >> > >> Bob S > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 31, 2021, at 09:16 , Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> I just read and watched Kevin's announcement about LC licensing. > >>> The value for us in the OSS license was simply a greater level of > >> assurance > >>> that there would be longevity in the event that LC the company failed, > as > >>> the source was still there for someone else to pick up. I think that's > >> how > >>> MC -> RR. > >>> So I am disappointed that the code will not be out in the open in the > >> event > >>> of a business failure, however, I'm also respectful of the need for > more > >>> revenue. > >>> I will leave it to others to discuss the failure of LC to deliver x,y,z > >> and > >>> how that plays into the situation. > >>> I am also not privy to a recent P/L, so I am in a bad position to opine > >> on > >>> what they should do or prioritize. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > >>> On the second day, God created the oceans. > >>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > >>> and did a little diving. > >>> And God said, "This is good." > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaveh Bazargan PhD > > Director > > River Valley Technologies ? > Twitter > > ? LinkedIn > > ? ORCID > > > > *Accelerating the Communication of Research* > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From alex at tweedly.net Wed Sep 1 04:29:55 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:29:55 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <462c28de-3900-70ab-0d05-ed5b0bd93441@pair.com> References: <462c28de-3900-70ab-0d05-ed5b0bd93441@pair.com> Message-ID: Thanks Curry. You are absolutely right, everything I said was about the starter plan, not the standard plan. With that correction: ?I am surprised there is no annual option on the starter (hobbyist) plan?. Thanks, Alex the hobbyist. Sent from my iPhone > On 1 Sep 2021, at 01:55, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > ? > Alex: > > > I'm surprised there is no "annual payment" option > > on the standard plan. The standard plan is also the hobbyist plan > > "The LiveCode standard plan is an annual subscription which starts > at $299 per deployment platform per year" > > "LiveCode Starter Plan > A great way to get started with LiveCode > and for those who like to code as a hobby" > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Wed Sep 1 04:37:26 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 09:37:26 +0100 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Curry, we appreciate the feedback. Hope you feel better soon! Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 31/08/2021, 22:28, "use-livecode on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode" wrote: Kevin: > After 8 years with an open source offering we have come to > the conclusion this is not the way forward for LiveCode. I agree. In 2013 I was on-the-record as an OSSLC skeptic. I urged caution, but my input was summarily brushed aside; "we've already decided with our VIPs" was the mindset. There were many cheerleaders and nobody wanted analysis. I seem to be vindicated, by time and facts. My logic was not clouded by cliques or politiques. Some of my worries came true, despite popular mantras. Now as then, I offer some clear-headed thoughts in kindness. Feel free to accept or ignore them; again time will tell. To save us all another 8 years of issues, my advice now is: 1. Get the pricing right! Dropping open-source is the first step, and that's right. Pricing per platform is probably right, but needs tweaking. Standard plan starts off right, but ends up too expensive. The discount should increase per addon platform. You will find that many people can't afford what they need. Probably +1 platform per price tier would be nearer the mark. Neither extreme is good; all freeloaders or all Cadillac. Let's not jump from one mistake right to the other. 2. Get the code right! A. We build software on LiveCode. B. Foundations must be stable and solid. C. The goal is to be easier and save dev time. D. Therefore LiveCode must offer a solid foundation, that is quite stable over time. (Moreso than Apple.) LC 7 and 8 introduced tons of bugs. Buggy is bad. Performance also dropped dramatically. Not good. Today's roadmap looks like a step the right direction. Some solid engine improvements. For many years I've seen newbies unable to tell whether a bug was LC's fault or their own. That usually shouldn't be a tossup; firm foundation! And LC needs to perform well to be competitive. When an underlying API changes, our top-level code shouldn't. Sometimes maybe, but usually not. Understand LC's paradigm. Think how expensive client-side code changes were from 7 to 9. 3. Get the listening right! I've warned about cliques and ever-changing inner circles. Yep, there's a reason why group-think has a bad reputation. :) Also about pre-biased poll designs and cherry picked focus groups. Yep, you hear what you expect, but you don't get true feedback. Diversity of opinion is good, and objectivity is rare. But logic is a firm foundation, and emotion is not. You won't recruit a new user generation by limiting the narrative. Listen and learn. It always goes both ways. That's the beauty of it. 4. Happy coding! I'm stick sick (fever too at the moment) so just pitching in right now with my observations out of kind timely consideration. So no flame wars at me please; time will verify what I've said. Looks like we're entering a promising new chapter. Back to rest! (More news of my own eventually, after I shake this illness....) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kaveh at rivervalleytechnologies.com Wed Sep 1 04:48:08 2021 From: kaveh at rivervalleytechnologies.com (Kaveh) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:48:08 +0100 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: <04402C53-A4E4-493A-A0C9-E6526F276DB3@davewood.nz> Message-ID: but OpenOffice is not! On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 09:15, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > LibreOffice is alive and kicking. > > On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:48 David Wood via use-livecode, < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > LiveCode is magical. (From a beta HyperCard user!) > > > > > > Gosh! I was also a Hypercard user. But a beta Hypercard user! WOW! > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 01:04, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > >> I honestly never quite saw how offering a free version alongside > > >> commercial versions was going to fly. People need to eat, and if you > > give > > >> something away for free, people will simply not pay for it. > > >> > > >> I did the free version for a couple years, mainly because what I > create > > >> helps almost exclusively myself, and I do not sell anything. I am on > > Indy > > >> for a couple years now because I feel bad about using the software for > > >> free, and I feel like I need to contribute to the "cause", which is > not > > >> purely altruistic by the way. The loss of Livecode would pretty much > > mean > > >> the end of my development hobby. > > >> > > >> Overall I welcome this new approach. If you are using LC for free, > > please > > >> consider getting on a subscription, especially if you develop > regularly. > > >> > > >> Bob S > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Aug 31, 2021, at 09:16 , Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I just read and watched Kevin's announcement about LC licensing. > > >>> The value for us in the OSS license was simply a greater level of > > >> assurance > > >>> that there would be longevity in the event that LC the company > failed, > > as > > >>> the source was still there for someone else to pick up. I think > that's > > >> how > > >>> MC -> RR. > > >>> So I am disappointed that the code will not be out in the open in the > > >> event > > >>> of a business failure, however, I'm also respectful of the need for > > more > > >>> revenue. > > >>> I will leave it to others to discuss the failure of LC to deliver > x,y,z > > >> and > > >>> how that plays into the situation. > > >>> I am also not privy to a recent P/L, so I am in a bad position to > opine > > >> on > > >>> what they should do or prioritize. > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > >>> On the second day, God created the oceans. > > >>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > >>> and did a little diving. > > >>> And God said, "This is good." > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> use-livecode mailing list > > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > >> subscription preferences: > > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> use-livecode mailing list > > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > >> subscription preferences: > > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Kaveh Bazargan PhD > > > Director > > > River Valley Technologies ? > > Twitter > > > ? LinkedIn > > > ? ORCID > > > > > > *Accelerating the Communication of Research* > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Kaveh Bazargan PhD Director River Valley Technologies ? Twitter ? LinkedIn ? ORCID *Accelerating the Communication of Research* From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Sep 1 05:02:57 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:02:57 +0200 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You speak from my heart. I had exactly the same thoughts about a free version. And i was proven right at least here in my edged circle (i hope that is the correct expression). Whenever I suggested to people, who used the software for creating internally for their company, to support LC at least with a Community Plus subscription, I always got the same answer: Why should I buy a license when I can do everything with the free version. :) Although i have a lifetime Indy License, i have an "add-on" subscription to Business, although i even do not use any of the Business features at the moment. But i will keep this subscription as long as i can afford paying it. The only thing that is really a pity with this new change is, that there is no Livecode Server Community anymore. My hope was, that the free version of Livecode Server would be installed by more and more hosting providers in the future. But maybe Livecode will be evaluating something, so interested hosting providers could still install Livecode Server on their hosting platforms for free. Matthias > Am 01.09.2021 um 02:03 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : > > I honestly never quite saw how offering a free version alongside commercial versions was going to fly. People need to eat, and if you give something away for free, people will simply not pay for it. > > I did the free version for a couple years, mainly because what I create helps almost exclusively myself, and I do not sell anything. I am on Indy for a couple years now because I feel bad about using the software for free, and I feel like I need to contribute to the "cause", which is not purely altruistic by the way. The loss of Livecode would pretty much mean the end of my development hobby. > > Overall I welcome this new approach. If you are using LC for free, please consider getting on a subscription, especially if you develop regularly. > > Bob S > > >> On Aug 31, 2021, at 09:16 , Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I just read and watched Kevin's announcement about LC licensing. >> The value for us in the OSS license was simply a greater level of assurance >> that there would be longevity in the event that LC the company failed, as >> the source was still there for someone else to pick up. I think that's how >> MC -> RR. >> So I am disappointed that the code will not be out in the open in the event >> of a business failure, however, I'm also respectful of the need for more >> revenue. >> I will leave it to others to discuss the failure of LC to deliver x,y,z and >> how that plays into the situation. >> I am also not privy to a recent P/L, so I am in a bad position to opine on >> what they should do or prioritize. >> >> -- >> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth >> On the second day, God created the oceans. >> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, >> and did a little diving. >> And God said, "This is good." >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Sep 1 06:00:48 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:00:48 +0200 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: <462c28de-3900-70ab-0d05-ed5b0bd93441@pair.com> Message-ID: <436F07EA-FEA3-4DB2-8470-61E14F64C362@m-r-d.de> Alex, i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert Plan subscription expires. Matthias > Am 01.09.2021 um 10:29 schrieb Alex Tweedly via use-livecode : > > Thanks Curry. You are absolutely right, everything I said was about the starter plan, not the standard plan. > > With that correction: ?I am surprised there is no annual option on the starter (hobbyist) plan?. > > Thanks, > Alex the hobbyist. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 01:55, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: >> >> ? >> Alex: >> >>> I'm surprised there is no "annual payment" option >>> on the standard plan. The standard plan is also the hobbyist plan >> >> "The LiveCode standard plan is an annual subscription which starts >> at $299 per deployment platform per year" >> >> "LiveCode Starter Plan >> A great way to get started with LiveCode >> and for those who like to code as a hobby" >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Curry Kenworthy >> >> Custom Software Development >> "Better Methods, Better Results" >> LiveCode Training and Consulting >> http://livecodeconsulting.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bdrunrev at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 06:26:22 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:26:22 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't say this surprises me. I didn't expect the open source offering to do anything but cut into the bottom line. But certainty isn't achieved until something is tried and actual results obtained. One of the good things about having the code source was that there have been times when I've wanted to suggest an enhancement and could look through the code myself to see what would be required to bring it about. If it required only a small change I could make that suggestion and the enhancement was easy to make. Over the years I've watched on general programming forums as whenever HyperCard was brought up there was gushing praise for what it was. Whenever someone then posted about LiveCode in this context, the gushing praise turned to irrational hostility. Pointing out that LC was cross-platform beyond their wildest dreams, massively more capable than HyperCard, and free to use made no difference to their irrational hostility -- better was worse. There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical artefact, not as a tool available to people now. No wonder none of them got interested in the open source code. Ironically the LC source can remain up on Github and as the past 8 years have shown it's exceedingly unlikely that the advocates of open source will take it and run with it. This can be contrasted with, for example, what happened with the InterBase database - in the rage for open source some 20 years ago Borland put up the code for InterBase, but within a couple of days changed their mind and took down the source code. But by then the source had been downloaded and became the Firebird database. The closed source InterBase is still for sale, even though Firebird ended up being completely re-written based on the code released 20 years ago. Someone posted this announcement by LC to news.ycombinator.com. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28370865 LC got less hostility from this announcement than from when LC would be mentioned in the past as an open source version of HyperCard. At the end of the day, if not enough funds go into LC Ltd then both the closed source and open source products would disappear - the past 8 years have shown us there is very little interest in people contributing to the source. It's chalk and cheese when compared with InterBase/Firebird. After 8 years there simply aren't enough low-level programmers who have any interest in a version of HyperCard for the 21st century. I could have switched to using the open source version of LC 8 years ago, but I continued to pay for a license because I understood that bills have to be paid or Livecode disappears. Regards, Bernard From dvglasgow at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 07:17:28 2021 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:17:28 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. Abso-frogging-lutely. The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we could do about it?? Best Wishes, David Glasgow Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist Carlton Glasgow Partnership Director, Child & Family Training, York Honorary Professor Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit Nottingham Trent University From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 07:54:29 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:54:29 +0100 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the next level and they need more revenue to do that. The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. Personally I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the projects I work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially by a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue with developing with the community edition and help build an open source community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively easy, the latter a lot of work. I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source products??that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, and the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode Ltd? As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to take control and responsibility for the core language. There are a number of options with regard to future language development, that would put the language on an even par with other open source languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode , wrote: > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > > Abso-frogging-lutely. > > The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we could do about it?? > > > Best Wishes, > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > Honorary Professor > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Nottingham Trent University > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From andre at andregarzia.com Wed Sep 1 08:26:45 2021 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:26:45 +0100 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: People had eight years to contribute to the community edition, and they didn't. I don't think people would now start caring for and devoting the necessary energy to maintain the community edition. It is because people didn't organise and contribute that this recent change happened. On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 12:56, David Bovill via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. > > Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly > struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the > next level and they need more revenue to do that. > > The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. Personally > I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the projects I > work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially by > a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue > with developing with the community edition and help build an open source > community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively easy, > the latter a lot of work. > > I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source > products that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, and > the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode Ltd? > As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to > take control and responsibility for the core language. > > There are a number of options with regard to future language development, > that would put the language on an even par with other open source > languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It > would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. > > How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We > can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and > discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? > > > ? Schedule a call with me > On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > > > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > > > > Abso-frogging-lutely. > > > > The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we > could do about it?? > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > David Glasgow > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > Honorary Professor > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > Nottingham Trent University > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- https://www.andregarzia.com Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Sep 1 08:40:31 2021 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 08:40:31 -0400 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Extending on something Bernd said, I would hope the gang will consider is keeping portions that are built upon the engine OSS, even with a restrictive commercial license. Something else for all of us to remember, when LC went OSS, there was a reason, and at least part of that was financial. As with every time LC makes a move and the hope comes out, here's hoping that this move will be great. On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 7:19 AM David V Glasgow via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > > Abso-frogging-lutely. > > The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we > could do about it?? > > > Best Wishes, > > David Glasgow > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > Director, Child & Family Training, York > Honorary Professor > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > Nottingham Trent University > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 1 08:59:14 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:59:14 +0100 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: The main reasons I stopped contributing were: No easy support for LiveCode script as it was all in binary so versioning was non-existent. Life cycle between a pull request, merge and deployment The dictionary was the only place I was able to properly contribute. But it still sucked a lot. And was inconsistent between the Doc Viewer and the Doc panel in the script editor. I kind-of got fed up with all of it. The new AI thing is cool. But it would be good to have a good portal for submitting updates and improving the quality of the Guide/Dictionary. Liking where LC10 is heading. I was an outspoken naysayer of Open Sourcing. TBH, I didn't understand the need. I liked it a bit more when it happened. I definitely liked peeking into the core and getting a better understanding of how stuff like the datagrid worked and other bits and bobs. But I am happier now it's gone back into the hands of LCLtd. It makes much more sense. I'd be interested to know if a new SDK is being implemented if it's now no longer open source. Or if Widgets and LCB will remain the main way in (which is probably fine). Sean *Pi * On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 13:26, Andre Garzia via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > People had eight years to contribute to the community edition, and they > didn't. I don't think people would now start caring for and devoting the > necessary energy to maintain the community edition. It is because people > didn't organise and contribute that this recent change happened. > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 12:56, David Bovill via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. > > > > Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly > > struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the > > next level and they need more revenue to do that. > > > > The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. > Personally > > I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the > projects I > > work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially > by > > a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue > > with developing with the community edition and help build an open source > > community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively > easy, > > the latter a lot of work. > > > > I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source > > products that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, > and > > the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode > Ltd? > > As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to > > take control and responsibility for the core language. > > > > There are a number of options with regard to future language development, > > that would put the language on an even par with other open source > > languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It > > would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. > > > > How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We > > can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and > > discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? > > > > > > ? Schedule a call with me > > On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > > > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > > > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > > > > > > Abso-frogging-lutely. > > > > > > The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we > > could do about it?? > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > David Glasgow > > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > Honorary Professor > > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > > Nottingham Trent University > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > https://www.andregarzia.com > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bdrunrev at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 09:02:21 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 14:02:21 +0100 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: I'll refer again to the Firebird project. One of the ways they were able to build on this opensource project was that as a community they employed and funded programmers (mostly in Russia, if memory serves) to add the features the community wanted. So one way or another FOSS projects end up requiring payment. There are other FOSS projects where the developers of the project end up getting fame because of it, leading to them being head-hunted as a team, leaving the project languishing as the developers all go off to be employees of Twitter, etc. In other projects the developers get employed as consultants in implementations of the project in corporate environments. I look on payment to Livecode Ltd as payment to protect me from low-level languages. With that mentality the idea of contributing to the C source code is the opposite of what I want. I suspect most LC users have this mentality. Regards Bernard. On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 1:28 PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > People had eight years to contribute to the community edition, and they > didn't. I don't think people would now start caring for and devoting the > necessary energy to maintain the community edition. It is because people > didn't organise and contribute that this recent change happened. > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 12:56, David Bovill via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. > > > > Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly > > struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the > > next level and they need more revenue to do that. > > > > The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. > Personally > > I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the > projects I > > work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially > by > > a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue > > with developing with the community edition and help build an open source > > community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively > easy, > > the latter a lot of work. > > > > I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source > > products that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, > and > > the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode > Ltd? > > As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to > > take control and responsibility for the core language. > > > > There are a number of options with regard to future language development, > > that would put the language on an even par with other open source > > languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It > > would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. > > > > How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We > > can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and > > discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? > > > > > > ? Schedule a call with me > > On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > > > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > > > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > > > > > > Abso-frogging-lutely. > > > > > > The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we > > could do about it?? > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > David Glasgow > > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > Honorary Professor > > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > > Nottingham Trent University > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > https://www.andregarzia.com > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/andregarzia > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bdrunrev at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 09:28:51 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 14:28:51 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: FWIW over on the forums the sentiment seems to be mostly hostile to these changes. Many are talking of collecting and hosting past "community" installers to get around these changes by LC Ltd, others talking of jumping ship. Over there the attitude is "the sky is falling". I can only assume many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of progress. Regards, Bernard From bleiler at buffalo.edu Wed Sep 1 09:36:02 2021 From: bleiler at buffalo.edu (Timothy Bleiler) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:36:02 +0000 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: <32C7E7DA-1871-4496-93C1-F50FB5D4365F@buffalo.edu> I?m afraid I have to agree with Andre that if people didn?t contribute before, with Livecode Ltd. overseeing the process, they?re not going to now. A large part of the problem is that there just aren?t very many of us with the time and skills to make contributions to the engine. Like Sean, I?m wondering about the status of LCB and widgets. This seemed like a considerable effort to facilitate community contributions and it would be unfortunate not to leverage this somehow going forward. If this architecture were to remain and be enhanced perhaps the company could offer discounts on subscriptions in exchange for contributions. Maybe a dedicated section of the forums listing and discussing features that might be added. Also, why not keep the IDE ?open? in some sense? If a little more guidance were provided on the design of the IDE I think there are a lot of us that have the scripting skills to improve it. Some ideas along these lines might have more chance of success than a ?go it alone? community open source effort. Tim Bleiler, Ph.D. Instructional Designer, HSIT University at Buffalo > On Sep 1, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > > The main reasons I stopped contributing were: > No easy support for LiveCode script as it was all in binary so versioning > was non-existent. > Life cycle between a pull request, merge and deployment > > The dictionary was the only place I was able to properly contribute. But it > still sucked a lot. And was inconsistent between the Doc Viewer and the Doc > panel in the script editor. I kind-of got fed up with all of it. The new AI > thing is cool. But it would be good to have a good portal for submitting > updates and improving the quality of the Guide/Dictionary. > > Liking where LC10 is heading. I was an outspoken naysayer of Open Sourcing. > TBH, I didn't understand the need. I liked it a bit more when it happened. > I definitely liked peeking into the core and getting a better understanding > of how stuff like the datagrid worked and other bits and bobs. > > But I am happier now it's gone back into the hands of LCLtd. It makes much > more sense. > > I'd be interested to know if a new SDK is being implemented if it's now no > longer open source. Or if Widgets and LCB will remain the main way in > (which is probably fine). > > Sean > *Pi * > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 13:26, Andre Garzia via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> People had eight years to contribute to the community edition, and they >> didn't. I don't think people would now start caring for and devoting the >> necessary energy to maintain the community edition. It is because people >> didn't organise and contribute that this recent change happened. >> >> On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 12:56, David Bovill via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. >>> >>> Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly >>> struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the >>> next level and they need more revenue to do that. >>> >>> The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. >> Personally >>> I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the >> projects I >>> work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially >> by >>> a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue >>> with developing with the community edition and help build an open source >>> community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively >> easy, >>> the latter a lot of work. >>> >>> I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source >>> products that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, >> and >>> the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode >> Ltd? >>> As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to >>> take control and responsibility for the core language. >>> >>> There are a number of options with regard to future language development, >>> that would put the language on an even par with other open source >>> languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It >>> would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. >>> >>> How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We >>> can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and >>> discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? >>> >>> >>> ? Schedule a call with me >>> On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what >>>>> HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical >>>>> artefact, not as a tool available to people now. >>>> >>>> Abso-frogging-lutely. >>>> >>>> The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we >>> could do about it?? >>>> >>>> >>>> Best Wishes, >>>> >>>> David Glasgow >>>> Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist >>>> Carlton Glasgow Partnership >>>> Director, Child & Family Training, York >>>> Honorary Professor >>>> Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit >>>> Nottingham Trent University >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363510794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BX%2BabnDOmBRf3ex24NIiFdXp5RfVOzjfWArUdxDRoI0%3D&reserved=0 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363510794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BX%2BabnDOmBRf3ex24NIiFdXp5RfVOzjfWArUdxDRoI0%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> >> -- >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.andregarzia.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ooRnJNV5mOQOeKBeGUYYoWnLlTywJ6NWtffjS26Mhiw%3D&reserved=0 >> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fko-fi.com%2Fandregarzia&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=cJAVBJw8iTZtsnYkJpeG%2Bcah2epO9CdnSrfqLefumYI%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=m8tRj%2FEoQ2%2Bw0o7dtOnu7eWwqn2bodhlIHpZ5tbChzw%3D&reserved=0 >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=m8tRj%2FEoQ2%2Bw0o7dtOnu7eWwqn2bodhlIHpZ5tbChzw%3D&reserved=0 From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Sep 1 09:43:52 2021 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:43:52 -0400 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: <32C7E7DA-1871-4496-93C1-F50FB5D4365F@buffalo.edu> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> <32C7E7DA-1871-4496-93C1-F50FB5D4365F@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: You could always get at the IDE. You still can. Hopefully that won't change, because there are plenty of times where something is broken and it takes forever to get it fixed. On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 9:37 AM Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I?m afraid I have to agree with Andre that if people didn?t contribute > before, with Livecode Ltd. overseeing the process, they?re not going to > now. A large part of the problem is that there just aren?t very many of us > with the time and skills to make contributions to the engine. > > Like Sean, I?m wondering about the status of LCB and widgets. This seemed > like a considerable effort to facilitate community contributions and it > would be unfortunate not to leverage this somehow going forward. If this > architecture were to remain and be enhanced perhaps the company could offer > discounts on subscriptions in exchange for contributions. Maybe a dedicated > section of the forums listing and discussing features that might be added. > Also, why not keep the IDE ?open? in some sense? If a little more guidance > were provided on the design of the IDE I think there are a lot of us that > have the scripting skills to improve it. > > Some ideas along these lines might have more chance of success than a ?go > it alone? community open source effort. > > Tim Bleiler, Ph.D. > Instructional Designer, HSIT > University at Buffalo > > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > The main reasons I stopped contributing were: > > No easy support for LiveCode script as it was all in binary so versioning > > was non-existent. > > Life cycle between a pull request, merge and deployment > > > > The dictionary was the only place I was able to properly contribute. But > it > > still sucked a lot. And was inconsistent between the Doc Viewer and the > Doc > > panel in the script editor. I kind-of got fed up with all of it. The new > AI > > thing is cool. But it would be good to have a good portal for submitting > > updates and improving the quality of the Guide/Dictionary. > > > > Liking where LC10 is heading. I was an outspoken naysayer of Open > Sourcing. > > TBH, I didn't understand the need. I liked it a bit more when it > happened. > > I definitely liked peeking into the core and getting a better > understanding > > of how stuff like the datagrid worked and other bits and bobs. > > > > But I am happier now it's gone back into the hands of LCLtd. It makes > much > > more sense. > > > > I'd be interested to know if a new SDK is being implemented if it's now > no > > longer open source. Or if Widgets and LCB will remain the main way in > > (which is probably fine). > > > > Sean > > *Pi * > > > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 13:26, Andre Garzia via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> People had eight years to contribute to the community edition, and they > >> didn't. I don't think people would now start caring for and devoting the > >> necessary energy to maintain the community edition. It is because people > >> didn't organise and contribute that this recent change happened. > >> > >> On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 12:56, David Bovill via use-livecode < > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. > >>> > >>> Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly > >>> struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to > the > >>> next level and they need more revenue to do that. > >>> > >>> The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. > >> Personally > >>> I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the > >> projects I > >>> work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially > >> by > >>> a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to > continue > >>> with developing with the community edition and help build an open > source > >>> community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively > >> easy, > >>> the latter a lot of work. > >>> > >>> I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source > >>> products that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, > >> and > >>> the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode > >> Ltd? > >>> As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to > >>> take control and responsibility for the core language. > >>> > >>> There are a number of options with regard to future language > development, > >>> that would put the language on an even par with other open source > >>> languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It > >>> would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. > >>> > >>> How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We > >>> can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects > and > >>> discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? > >>> > >>> > >>> ? Schedule a call with me > >>> On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode < > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > >>>>> HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > >>>>> artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > >>>> > >>>> Abso-frogging-lutely. > >>>> > >>>> The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we > >>> could do about it?? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Best Wishes, > >>>> > >>>> David Glasgow > >>>> Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > >>>> Carlton Glasgow Partnership > >>>> Director, Child & Family Training, York > >>>> Honorary Professor > >>>> Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > >>>> Nottingham Trent University > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> use-livecode mailing list > >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>> subscription preferences: > >>>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363510794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BX%2BabnDOmBRf3ex24NIiFdXp5RfVOzjfWArUdxDRoI0%3D&reserved=0 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>> subscription preferences: > >>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363510794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BX%2BabnDOmBRf3ex24NIiFdXp5RfVOzjfWArUdxDRoI0%3D&reserved=0 > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.andregarzia.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ooRnJNV5mOQOeKBeGUYYoWnLlTywJ6NWtffjS26Mhiw%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.andregarzia.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=9Bv2x%2BCgBA0b53zdCJ1xzqwhq2EGU%2FrkFWQL4lBVoVI%3D&reserved=0 > > > >> Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fko-fi.com%2Fandregarzia&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=cJAVBJw8iTZtsnYkJpeG%2Bcah2epO9CdnSrfqLefumYI%3D&reserved=0 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=m8tRj%2FEoQ2%2Bw0o7dtOnu7eWwqn2bodhlIHpZ5tbChzw%3D&reserved=0 > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=m8tRj%2FEoQ2%2Bw0o7dtOnu7eWwqn2bodhlIHpZ5tbChzw%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From bleiler at buffalo.edu Wed Sep 1 09:59:06 2021 From: bleiler at buffalo.edu (Timothy Bleiler) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:59:06 +0000 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> <32C7E7DA-1871-4496-93C1-F50FB5D4365F@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: <9069C12C-579D-4621-B782-FCEA9F607B26@buffalo.edu> That?s true Mike and I?ve looked into it for my own benefit from time to time over the years. What I was suggesting was some formal support from the company to facilitate contributions to the IDE going forward. I never attempted much in the IDE because I?m not comfortable with my understanding of its design. Maybe I missed some information about it somewhere. Tim Bleiler, Ph.D. Instructional Designer, HSIT University at Buffalo On Sep 1, 2021, at 9:43 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode > wrote: You could always get at the IDE. You still can. Hopefully that won't change, because there are plenty of times where something is broken and it takes forever to get it fixed. From thatkeith at mac.com Wed Sep 1 10:12:09 2021 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 15:12:09 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08461AA5-DDF4-442E-8800-DFE62D53F3DB@mac.com> I just hope that my Price Lock Indy subscription will continue as promised. Kevin did say yesterday that "if we promised something in the past we do honour it? and back when I started my Indy sub I was told that my subscription will 'remain at the same cost for as long as I keep it active' ? hence the Price Lock title. I?m very happy to continue paying that. Community was an amazing initiative but that?s a rather different agreement. :) k > On 1 Sep 2021, at 14:28, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > > FWIW over on the forums the sentiment seems to be mostly hostile to these > changes. Many are talking of collecting and hosting past "community" > installers to get around these changes by LC Ltd, others talking of jumping > ship. Over there the attitude is "the sky is falling". I can only assume > many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that > doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of > progress. > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 10:25:50 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 15:25:50 +0100 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: <5384DE1F-055A-429F-978F-F87D3D3B1FB5@livecode.com> References: <5384DE1F-055A-429F-978F-F87D3D3B1FB5@livecode.com> Message-ID: That?s true Kevin for some business cases - and I am sure you speak for your existing customers. However it does not apply to businesses built around GPL licensed code. Nor does it apply to publicly funded initiative like EU funding, where an open source license is??required to avoid fears of locking of public funds. ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 31 Aug 2021, 17:39 +0100, Kevin Miller via use-livecode , wrote: > So I am disappointed that the code will not be out in the open in the event of a business failure > > The GPL open source license we used never provided this sort of protection due to the terms of the GPL. For that reason, we continued to sell source code escrow licenses to some commercial users, even as an open source company. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 10:39:05 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 15:39:05 +0100 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: <32C7E7DA-1871-4496-93C1-F50FB5D4365F@buffalo.edu> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> <32C7E7DA-1871-4496-93C1-F50FB5D4365F@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: <15730ae7-97b8-477f-b6ea-45a89aeab321@Spark> Yes - I agree with the reasons mentioned for difficulty getting contributions. I have some faith in new opportunities, and I personally would invest in growing and maintaining some aspect of an open source strategy - particularly around the server. I would have thought that having an open source version of the server would be a good idea, and not cut into revenue from core parts of the business? Trying to figure a way forwards. From a personal perspective I cannot develop the sort of education, and community projects I?m working on in a proprietary language. It is not sufficient to say that there is this one source code on Github that has not been maintained in so many years? that argument won?t enable me to grow a community of developers around that project, or convince educators, or social projects to finance them. So I have to figure some way forwards. ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 1 Sep 2021, 14:37 +0100, Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode , wrote: > I?m afraid I have to agree with Andre that if people didn?t contribute before, with Livecode Ltd. overseeing the process, they?re not going to now. A large part of the problem is that there just aren?t very many of us with the time and skills to make contributions to the engine. > > Like Sean, I?m wondering about the status of LCB and widgets. This seemed like a considerable effort to facilitate community contributions and it would be unfortunate not to leverage this somehow going forward. If this architecture were to remain and be enhanced perhaps the company could offer discounts on subscriptions in exchange for contributions. Maybe a dedicated section of the forums listing and discussing features that might be added. Also, why not keep the IDE ?open? in some sense? If a little more guidance were provided on the design of the IDE I think there are a lot of us that have the scripting skills to improve it. > > Some ideas along these lines might have more chance of success than a ?go it alone? community open source effort. > > Tim Bleiler, Ph.D. > Instructional Designer, HSIT > University at Buffalo > > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > > > > The main reasons I stopped contributing were: > > No easy support for LiveCode script as it was all in binary so versioning > > was non-existent. > > Life cycle between a pull request, merge and deployment > > > > The dictionary was the only place I was able to properly contribute. But it > > still sucked a lot. And was inconsistent between the Doc Viewer and the Doc > > panel in the script editor. I kind-of got fed up with all of it. The new AI > > thing is cool. But it would be good to have a good portal for submitting > > updates and improving the quality of the Guide/Dictionary. > > > > Liking where LC10 is heading. I was an outspoken naysayer of Open Sourcing. > > TBH, I didn't understand the need. I liked it a bit more when it happened. > > I definitely liked peeking into the core and getting a better understanding > > of how stuff like the datagrid worked and other bits and bobs. > > > > But I am happier now it's gone back into the hands of LCLtd. It makes much > > more sense. > > > > I'd be interested to know if a new SDK is being implemented if it's now no > > longer open source. Or if Widgets and LCB will remain the main way in > > (which is probably fine). > > > > Sean > > *Pi * > > > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 13:26, Andre Garzia via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > People had eight years to contribute to the community edition, and they > > > didn't. I don't think people would now start caring for and devoting the > > > necessary energy to maintain the community edition. It is because people > > > didn't organise and contribute that this recent change happened. > > > > > > On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 12:56, David Bovill via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. > > > > > > > > Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly > > > > struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the > > > > next level and they need more revenue to do that. > > > > > > > > The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. > > > Personally > > > > I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the > > > projects I > > > > work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially > > > by > > > > a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue > > > > with developing with the community edition and help build an open source > > > > community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively > > > easy, > > > > the latter a lot of work. > > > > > > > > I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source > > > > products that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, > > > and > > > > the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode > > > Ltd? > > > > As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to > > > > take control and responsibility for the core language. > > > > > > > > There are a number of options with regard to future language development, > > > > that would put the language on an even par with other open source > > > > languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It > > > > would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. > > > > > > > > How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We > > > > can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and > > > > discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? > > > > > > > > > > > > ? Schedule a call with me > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode < > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > > > > > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > > > > > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > > > > > > > > > > Abso-frogging-lutely. > > > > > > > > > > The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we > > > > could do about it?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > > > > > David Glasgow > > > > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > > > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > > > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > > > Honorary Professor > > > > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > > > > Nottingham Trent University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363510794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BX%2BabnDOmBRf3ex24NIiFdXp5RfVOzjfWArUdxDRoI0%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363510794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BX%2BabnDOmBRf3ex24NIiFdXp5RfVOzjfWArUdxDRoI0%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.andregarzia.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ooRnJNV5mOQOeKBeGUYYoWnLlTywJ6NWtffjS26Mhiw%3D&reserved=0 > > > Want to support me? Buy me a coffee at https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fko-fi.com%2Fandregarzia&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=cJAVBJw8iTZtsnYkJpeG%2Bcah2epO9CdnSrfqLefumYI%3D&reserved=0 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=m8tRj%2FEoQ2%2Bw0o7dtOnu7eWwqn2bodhlIHpZ5tbChzw%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.runrev.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fuse-livecode&data=04%7C01%7Cbleiler%40buffalo.edu%7C4c734b3d4d1e44c837ab08d96d487cc0%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637660980363520753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=m8tRj%2FEoQ2%2Bw0o7dtOnu7eWwqn2bodhlIHpZ5tbChzw%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Wed Sep 1 10:39:29 2021 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 15:39:29 +0100 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 1 Sep 2021, at 10:02, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Whenever I suggested to people, who used the software for creating internally for their company, to support LC at least with a Community Plus subscription, I always got the same answer: Why should I buy a license when I can do everything with the free version. : Yes, I can see how people would take that attitude, but it?s really not a great one, not in terms of helping ensure the future of the product. I had a price-lock Business + HTML5 subscription piggybacking on top of my Indy price-lock one, at least until last week when I had to cancel that piggybacked part. Today I?m no longer fully employed and may never be again (age + health = reality check time), but while I was I kept the Business + HTML5 going as a kind of contribution while I develop Indy-level stuff. k From miappworks at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 11:01:45 2021 From: miappworks at gmail.com (Brian Duck) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:01:45 -0400 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone Message-ID: <978A1BCF-F971-48D0-9C70-AB234A9811CC@gmail.com> Check your email..,? > On Sep 1, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: > > I just hope that my Price Lock Indy subscription will continue as promised. Mine was cancelled via email from cleverbridge: Your subscription for "LiveCode Indy - Price Lock" has been canceled. > Kevin did say yesterday that "if we promised something in the past we do honour it? and back when I started my Indy sub I was told that my subscription will 'remain at the same cost for as long as I keep it active' ? hence the Price Lock title. Promises, promises. The issue I have is the continuous campaigns promising features, only to find I?ve funded an add-on that I can?t afford to deploy, as with HTML5. Someone mentioned a roadmap for LC, is there more than what?s posted in the blog? MiAppWorks From heather at livecode.com Wed Sep 1 11:10:36 2021 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:10:36 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <978A1BCF-F971-48D0-9C70-AB234A9811CC@gmail.com> References: <978A1BCF-F971-48D0-9C70-AB234A9811CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86340104-E61C-4AAA-8F7E-D9187881A1DB@livecode.com> Brian... your price lock lapsed in January 2019. The last payment we received was in 2018, hence it could hardly be described as having been "kept active". Please contact support to discuss your exact licensing situation, I think you will find it more satisfactory than you realise. Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 1 Sep 2021, at 16:01, Brian Duck via use-livecode wrote: > > Check your email..,? > >> On Sep 1, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I just hope that my Price Lock Indy subscription will continue as promised. > > Mine was cancelled via email from cleverbridge: > > Your subscription for "LiveCode Indy - Price Lock" has been canceled. > >> Kevin did say yesterday that "if we promised something in the past we do honour it? and back when I started my Indy sub I was told that my subscription will 'remain at the same cost for as long as I keep it active' ? hence the Price Lock title. > > Promises, promises. > > The issue I have is the continuous campaigns promising features, only to find I?ve funded an add-on that I can?t afford to deploy, as with HTML5. > > Someone mentioned a roadmap for LC, is there more than what?s posted in the blog? > > MiAppWorks > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From danoldboy at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 11:44:58 2021 From: danoldboy at gmail.com (Dan Brown) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:44:58 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: "I can only assume many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of progress." That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years? > $600k On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 2:30 PM Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > FWIW over on the forums the sentiment seems to be mostly hostile to these > changes. Many are talking of collecting and hosting past "community" > installers to get around these changes by LC Ltd, others talking of jumping > ship. Over there the attitude is "the sky is falling". I can only assume > many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that > doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of > progress. > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bdrunrev at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 12:28:27 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:28:27 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: The vast majority of those who contributed to the Kickstarter were rewarded with something other than the free product. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28379192 I suggest you go read the comments on the Forum and see who is being harsh. LC Ltd made a change that is within their rights to keep LC going - some of the same people complaining about the new licensing costs are also people who repeatedly allege "LC Ltd is financially on the ropes". Others are on the Forum repeatedly telling people to jump ship to alternative tools, and were doing this for months before this licensing change was made. I'm pretty sure most people have more money lost on unused minutes on their mobile phone contract than it would cost to buy a license to fund LC development. On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:47 PM Dan Brown via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > "I can only assume > many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that > doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of > progress." > > That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was > contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years? > $600k > > > From kevin at livecode.com Wed Sep 1 12:34:23 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 17:34:23 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39290D11-4A76-4F37-A9B5-ABEE0E811364@livecode.com> We are of course incredibly grateful for the contributions we have received, all of which were spent on the project over many years. However I would note that 90%+ of all crowd funding campaign support came from license holders, the majority in the form of future license purchases. Commercial license revenue, whether crowd funded or not, was always the biggest source of funding for the open source project. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 01/09/2021, 16:44, "use-livecode on behalf of Dan Brown via use-livecode" wrote: "I can only assume many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of progress." That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years? > $600k On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 2:30 PM Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > FWIW over on the forums the sentiment seems to be mostly hostile to these > changes. Many are talking of collecting and hosting past "community" > installers to get around these changes by LC Ltd, others talking of jumping > ship. Over there the attitude is "the sky is falling". I can only assume > many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that > doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of > progress. > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 12:45:10 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:45:10 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think I?ll head over there and. See if there is any will to maintain an aspect of the language as open source - I think there are a couple of options: 1. The server 2. The language with a focus on was and web I would think that with these components open, this is in no way incompatible with a closed source development platform for mobile etc - people will still. Pay for the tools but the core of the language would be open.MModern tools make the development of the language aspect something a community can do and as it is is relatively cutting edge - something an open source community might be willing to undertake. Would need new blood I think. ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 1 Sep 2021, 14:30 +0100, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode , wrote: > FWIW over on the forums the sentiment seems to be mostly hostile to these > changes. Many are talking of collecting and hosting past "community" > installers to get around these changes by LC Ltd, others talking of jumping > ship. Over there the attitude is "the sky is falling". I can only assume > many of them used LC simply because it was free of charge, disliking that > doing so in future will entail them making some contribution to the cost of > progress. > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dan at clearvisiontech.com Wed Sep 1 13:04:27 2021 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:04:27 +0000 Subject: Custom URLs Message-ID: <8A3FF2CC-B2C1-4155-80B9-94694C6253AC@clearvisiontech.com> I need a little help here... I am creating a mobile app for a client that wants to simply launch another app. To do this, I am trying to use a custom url to launch an external app. For example: launch url "fb:" This works fine on Android, but on iOS, I get "no association" (yes, Facebook is installed). Then I read that you have to enter the Custom URLs you want to use in the "App URL Query Whitelist" area in the Application Builder. Is this true? Why does the app have to know at compile time what URLs are going to be opened? In my app's case, client can change and edit the list on a server, so the list of apps to launch are received by the our app at launch. "mailto:", "http:", "music:" and "tel:" all work just fine on iOS without being included in the App URL Query Whitelist. Anyone have any insight to this process? Thanks in advance! -Dan From thatkeith at mac.com Wed Sep 1 13:34:50 2021 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:34:50 +0100 Subject: Custom URLs In-Reply-To: <8A3FF2CC-B2C1-4155-80B9-94694C6253AC@clearvisiontech.com> References: <8A3FF2CC-B2C1-4155-80B9-94694C6253AC@clearvisiontech.com> Message-ID: <25D89323-C14A-4357-A6FD-1E57C1FD57DF@mac.com> Only one thought: the protocols that do work on iOS are general declarations that are routed to an app/service as the host OS thinks is appropriate. Less common ones and app-specific ones do have to be registered... in the app that wants to be able RECEIVE them. So if the FB app doesn?t have that set up already it seems it can?t be done. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/defining-a-custom-url-scheme-for-your-app Would it work well enough to use a regular https URL to the resource on Facebook? It would open in the user?s browser, but it may be enough. k > On 1 Sep 2021, at 18:04, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote: > > I need a little help here... > > I am creating a mobile app for a client that wants to simply launch another app. To do this, I am trying to use a custom url to launch an external app. For example: > > launch url "fb:" > > This works fine on Android, but on iOS, I get "no association" (yes, Facebook is installed). Then I read that you have to enter the Custom URLs you want to use in the "App URL Query Whitelist" area in the Application Builder. Is this true? Why does the app have to know at compile time what URLs are going to be opened? In my app's case, client can change and edit the list on a server, so the list of apps to launch are received by the our app at launch. > > "mailto:", "http:", "music:" and "tel:" all work just fine on iOS without being included in the App URL Query Whitelist. > > Anyone have any insight to this process? > > Thanks in advance! > -Dan > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 13:38:57 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:38:57 +0100 Subject: Custom URLs In-Reply-To: <8A3FF2CC-B2C1-4155-80B9-94694C6253AC@clearvisiontech.com> References: <8A3FF2CC-B2C1-4155-80B9-94694C6253AC@clearvisiontech.com> Message-ID: <996df127-e2ef-46b5-b8ea-815c11c6a903@Spark> I don?t know Dan as its been a while since I looked into this - but it sounds like a typical security thing Apple insists on for the AppStore? They tend (when compared to Android), to lock that sort of thing down save for a few standard (internet) url schema. ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 1 Sep 2021, 18:05 +0100, Dan Friedman via use-livecode , wrote: > I need a little help here... > > I am creating a mobile app for a client that wants to simply launch another app. To do this, I am trying to use a custom url to launch an external app. For example: > > launch url "fb:" > > This works fine on Android, but on iOS, I get "no association" (yes, Facebook is installed). Then I read that you have to enter the Custom URLs you want to use in the "App URL Query Whitelist" area in the Application Builder. Is this true? Why does the app have to know at compile time what URLs are going to be opened? In my app's case, client can change and edit the list on a server, so the list of apps to launch are received by the our app at launch. > > "mailto:", "http:", "music:" and "tel:" all work just fine on iOS without being included in the App URL Query Whitelist. > > Anyone have any insight to this process? > > Thanks in advance! > -Dan > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 1 17:32:09 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:32:09 +0100 Subject: Custom URLs In-Reply-To: <996df127-e2ef-46b5-b8ea-815c11c6a903@Spark> References: <8A3FF2CC-B2C1-4155-80B9-94694C6253AC@clearvisiontech.com> <996df127-e2ef-46b5-b8ea-815c11c6a903@Spark> Message-ID: Dan, These will be useful to you: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21893447/facebook-sdk-app-not-registered-as-a-url-scheme https://github.com/facebookarchive/react-native-fbsdk/issues/707 Pi On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 18:38, David Bovill via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I don?t know Dan as its been a while since I looked into this - but it > sounds like a typical security thing Apple insists on for the AppStore? > They tend (when compared to Android), to lock that sort of thing down save > for a few standard (internet) url schema. > > ? Schedule a call with me > On 1 Sep 2021, 18:05 +0100, Dan Friedman via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > I need a little help here... > > > > I am creating a mobile app for a client that wants to simply launch > another app. To do this, I am trying to use a custom url to launch an > external app. For example: > > > > launch url "fb:" > > > > This works fine on Android, but on iOS, I get "no association" (yes, > Facebook is installed). Then I read that you have to enter the Custom URLs > you want to use in the "App URL Query Whitelist" area in the Application > Builder. Is this true? Why does the app have to know at compile time what > URLs are going to be opened? In my app's case, client can change and edit > the list on a server, so the list of apps to launch are received by the our > app at launch. > > > > "mailto:", "http:", "music:" and "tel:" all work just fine on iOS > without being included in the App URL Query Whitelist. > > > > Anyone have any insight to this process? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > -Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From dochawk at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 18:48:03 2021 From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 15:48:03 -0700 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D749A76-CD56-49E8-B98E-133D60EEFF44@gmail.com> Kevin kayaked, >Look what happened to Open Office. It died because no one wanted to work on it. ??? The bulk of the developers bolted and formed LibreOffice from the OO codebase. It?s alive and well--I just downloaded a new version this morning. It isn?t that OO faded or died, but that no-one liked the new overlords when Oracle acquired Sun. The project itself is thriving under the new name. From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Wed Sep 1 20:51:55 2021 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:51:55 +1000 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert Plan subscription expires. Not even Apple is that rapacious. I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. A great pity, but I guess times move on. I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous community for many years. Neville Smythe From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 1 21:28:40 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 01:28:40 +0000 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: It?s, ?So long, and thanks for all the fish!? And unless you can do a double 360 back flip while passing through a smallish ring suspended above the pool, I remain unimpressed. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 1, 2021, at 17:53, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > ? >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert Plan subscription expires. > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous community for many years. > > Neville Smythe > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Wed Sep 1 23:36:28 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 22:36:28 -0500 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to contact support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone. It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, but they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please do write to Heather. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert >> Plan subscription expires. > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been > ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. > A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous > community for many years. > > Neville Smythe > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bdrunrev at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 04:38:04 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 09:38:04 +0100 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Over on the forum Kevin has been encouraging people to contact support with any issues. Some are refusing to do so, making ridiculous demands in response. Yesterday I had a look at the historical prices to see if LC was significantly more expensive than Metacard: 2001 - Metacard ($995) [$288] 2005 - Revolution Enterprise (?899) [?243] 2021 - Livecode (3x distro platforms ?720) [?1316] In square brackets behind each is [the price of an ounce of gold] (if someone's got a better comparator, they can post it e.g. crude oil, pork bellies, cost of an entry level Mac, etc). So Metacard cost 3 ounces of gold, Rev Enterprise cost 3.7 oz of gold, today's Livecode equivalent costs 0.54 oz of gold. Even if one adds all 7 of the distro platforms (3 of which certainly didn't exist in 2005), a full Livecode license costs just over 1oz of gold, so between 1/3rd of the price of 15 years ago (or as little as 1/6th the price of Metacard). Objectively speaking, the customer today gets so much more for so much less. Apart from those who have been used to getting something for free. It was only this time last year I stated how amazing it was that Livecode manages all the complexity of producing software that runs on so many divergent platforms (I was navigating the version compatibilities of Xcode, Android Studio, MacOS, iOS, AndroidOS, Windows OS, and Livecode), not to mention producing two different versions of Livecode (free and commercial). Something had to give. Regards, Bernard From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Sep 2 05:04:38 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:04:38 +0100 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You will still be able to use the current Community Edition. It just won?t get updated any further or receive support from LCLtd. You are welcome for the fish. Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 2 Sep 2021, at 09:38, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Over on the forum Kevin has been encouraging people to contact support with > any issues. Some are refusing to do so, making ridiculous demands in > response. > > Yesterday I had a look at the historical prices to see if LC was > significantly more expensive than Metacard: > 2001 - Metacard ($995) [$288] > 2005 - Revolution Enterprise (?899) [?243] > 2021 - Livecode (3x distro platforms ?720) [?1316] > > In square brackets behind each is [the price of an ounce of gold] (if > someone's got a better comparator, they can post it e.g. crude oil, pork > bellies, cost of an entry level Mac, etc). > > So Metacard cost 3 ounces of gold, Rev Enterprise cost 3.7 oz of gold, > today's Livecode equivalent costs 0.54 oz of gold. Even if one adds all 7 > of the distro platforms (3 of which certainly didn't exist in 2005), a full > Livecode license costs just over 1oz of gold, so between 1/3rd of the price > of 15 years ago (or as little as 1/6th the price of Metacard). Objectively > speaking, the customer today gets so much more for so much less. Apart > from those who have been used to getting something for free. > > It was only this time last year I stated how amazing it was that Livecode > manages all the complexity of producing software that runs on so many > divergent platforms (I was navigating the version compatibilities of Xcode, > Android Studio, MacOS, iOS, AndroidOS, Windows OS, and Livecode), not to > mention producing two different versions of Livecode (free and > commercial). Something had to give. > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 05:33:18 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 10:33:18 +0100 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" wrote: This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to contact support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone. It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, but they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please do write to Heather. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert >> Plan subscription expires. > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been > ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. > A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous > community for many years. > > Neville Smythe > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 05:49:36 2021 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:49:36 +0100 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <038D07BB-4936-4AB0-BEB3-099CC9064AE2@livecode.com> I'd just like to reiterate that, please get in touch on support at livecode.com if you have questions about your license or need help or don't think you can afford the new pricing. Please also bear in mind that we are *exceptionally busy* and while I will definitely get back to everybody, as fast as I can, it may take me a bit longer than usual. Your patience is appreciated. If you have emailed support once, and not heard back yet, please don't email again... it will only slow things down further :) Warmest Regards to all, Heather PS and thank you for the messages of support, those are much appreciated too. Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 2 Sep 2021, at 10:33, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" wrote: > > This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to contact > support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone. > > It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, but > they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please do > write to Heather. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode > wrote: > >>> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >>> >>> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were >>> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert >>> Plan subscription expires. >> >> Not even Apple is that rapacious. >> >> I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although >> the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been >> ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses >> being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I >> wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally >> contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to >> a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for >> our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every >> year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server >> is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the >> app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard >> day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. >> A great pity, but I guess times move on. >> >> I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous >> community for many years. >> >> Neville Smythe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bdrunrev at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 05:50:51 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:50:51 +0100 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Hi Kevin I've read your various interactions with people here and on the forum and I think you're handling this superbly In the last 5 years my house insurance has doubled in price (the house has remained the same size and the insurance offers no more features). At no point has my insurance company said "contact us if you can't afford this and we'll work something out". Regards, On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to > contact > support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone. > > It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, > but > they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please > do > write to Heather. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode > wrote: > > >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> > >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that > were > >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the > Startert > >> Plan subscription expires. > > > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff > (although > > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have > been > > ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC > uses > > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software > I > > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally > > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to > move to > > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense > for > > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 > every > > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the > Server > > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that > means the > > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since > Hypercard > > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to > an end. > > A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and > generous > > community for many years. > > > > Neville Smythe > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 06:22:37 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:22:37 +0100 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Thanks Devin, I do appreciate the words of support. Change is always hard, and this particular one was something we were not looking forward to. But it had to be done and we will find our way through it. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 10:50, "use-livecode on behalf of Bernard Devlin via use-livecode" wrote: Hi Kevin I've read your various interactions with people here and on the forum and I think you're handling this superbly In the last 5 years my house insurance has doubled in price (the house has remained the same size and the insurance offers no more features). At no point has my insurance company said "contact us if you can't afford this and we'll work something out". Regards, On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to > contact > support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone. > > It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, > but > they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please > do > write to Heather. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode > wrote: > > >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> > >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that > were > >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the > Startert > >> Plan subscription expires. > > > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff > (although > > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have > been > > ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC > uses > > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software > I > > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally > > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to > move to > > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense > for > > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 > every > > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the > Server > > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that > means the > > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since > Hypercard > > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to > an end. > > A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and > generous > > community for many years. > > > > Neville Smythe > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 06:47:31 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:47:31 +0100 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: I meant Bernard of course, apologies. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 11:22, "use-livecode on behalf of Kevin Miller via use-livecode" wrote: Thanks Devin, I do appreciate the words of support. Change is always hard, and this particular one was something we were not looking forward to. But it had to be done and we will find our way through it. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 10:50, "use-livecode on behalf of Bernard Devlin via use-livecode" wrote: Hi Kevin I've read your various interactions with people here and on the forum and I think you're handling this superbly In the last 5 years my house insurance has doubled in price (the house has remained the same size and the insurance offers no more features). At no point has my insurance company said "contact us if you can't afford this and we'll work something out". Regards, On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > What she said. Get in touch and I'm sure we can work something out. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 04:36, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to > contact > support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone. > > It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, > but > they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please > do > write to Heather. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode > wrote: > > >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com > wrote: > >> > >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that > were > >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the > Startert > >> Plan subscription expires. > > > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff > (although > > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have > been > > ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC > uses > > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software > I > > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally > > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to > move to > > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense > for > > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 > every > > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the > Server > > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that > means the > > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since > Hypercard > > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to > an end. > > A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and > generous > > community for many years. > > > > Neville Smythe > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 2 07:12:26 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:12:26 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. Message-ID: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> Sorry to drag us off the interesting topic of licensing :-) into some Livecode question. I know little or nothing about Unicode, text encodings, etc. - so my question is indeed naive. I have a text file (War & Peace from Project Gutenberg), about 3.4Mb. The Mac describes it simply as "Plain text". When I read that into a variable, and then do ??? replace tChar by SPACE in tWholeText it takes between 1000 and 4000 millisecs - versus the 8-10 msecs I had expected from other samples. If I put in ? ? put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText before the replace then it does indeed tae 8-10 msecs. Q1. What (if anything) am I losing by doing that ? Q2. Is this the best alternative ? Additional info - I just discovered that according to 'more' command line, the file start with : The Project .... if that is useful. Many thanks, Alex. From keith.clarke at me.com Thu Sep 2 07:53:20 2021 From: keith.clarke at me.com (Keith Clarke) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:53:20 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <2D46B492-864E-4BFC-8CC6-88AF40B362F6@me.com> I may be wrong but I thought Mac?s ?Plain Text? just meant it?s a ?text.txt? MIME type file, which could be encoded as ASCII, UTF-8, UTF-16 or UTF-32, rather than a 'text.rtf? rich text MIME type file, with the embedded markup for styling, such as bold, italic, etc. The '? at the start of the document is the Byte Order Mark, suggesting UTF-16 in ?little-endian? order - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_order_mark HTH Best, Keith > On 2 Sep 2021, at 12:12, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > Sorry to drag us off the interesting topic of licensing :-) into some Livecode question. > > I know little or nothing about Unicode, text encodings, etc. - so my question is indeed naive. > > I have a text file (War & Peace from Project Gutenberg), about 3.4Mb. The Mac describes it simply as "Plain text". > > When I read that into a variable, and then do > replace tChar by SPACE in tWholeText > it takes between 1000 and 4000 millisecs - versus the 8-10 msecs I had expected from other samples. > > If I put in > put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText > before the replace then it does indeed tae 8-10 msecs. > > Q1. What (if anything) am I losing by doing that ? > > Q2. Is this the best alternative ? > > Additional info - I just discovered that according to 'more' command line, the file start with : > > The Project .... > > if that is useful. > > Many thanks, > > Alex. > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Thu Sep 2 07:55:20 2021 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:55:20 +0100 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <8F47ACB3-C82A-4B4F-86D0-666D42F8BE33@mac.com> Unless someone?s hoarding gold that?s an interesting but not all that useful pricing comparison. I prefer the Big Mac Index (https://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/ ) and regular historical inflation/value charts. ;) However, yes, we do get a lot from LC. k > On 2 Sep 2021, at 09:38, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > > Over on the forum Kevin has been encouraging people to contact support with > any issues. Some are refusing to do so, making ridiculous demands in > response. > > Yesterday I had a look at the historical prices to see if LC was > significantly more expensive than Metacard: > 2001 - Metacard ($995) [$288] > 2005 - Revolution Enterprise (?899) [?243] > 2021 - Livecode (3x distro platforms ?720) [?1316] > > In square brackets behind each is [the price of an ounce of gold] (if > someone's got a better comparator, they can post it e.g. crude oil, pork > bellies, cost of an entry level Mac, etc). > > So Metacard cost 3 ounces of gold, Rev Enterprise cost 3.7 oz of gold, > today's Livecode equivalent costs 0.54 oz of gold. Even if one adds all 7 > of the distro platforms (3 of which certainly didn't exist in 2005), a full > Livecode license costs just over 1oz of gold, so between 1/3rd of the price > of 15 years ago (or as little as 1/6th the price of Metacard). Objectively > speaking, the customer today gets so much more for so much less. Apart > from those who have been used to getting something for free. > > It was only this time last year I stated how amazing it was that Livecode > manages all the complexity of producing software that runs on so many > divergent platforms (I was navigating the version compatibilities of Xcode, > Android Studio, MacOS, iOS, AndroidOS, Windows OS, and Livecode), not to > mention producing two different versions of Livecode (free and > commercial). Something had to give. > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 08:01:13 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 13:01:13 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the question Alex, I?m wrestling with the same issues - but so far got no responses from encoding gurus here :) This is my understanding: 1) Yes its recommended to textEncode text that comes from outside into Livecode?s internal native format (which is utf16).??Livecode handles everything internally ?transparently? from then on - which I guess means all usual language and control operations expect this utf16 internal format. My guess is this is why a few things have got slower as compared with early versions of Livecode. 2) Without doing textEncode the engine tries to guess the encoding (duck-typing?) and does this in a platform specific way? Again exactly what is going on there is a bit opaque to me, but the take-home message is that this is slower and less robust. So yes -losing nothing (assuming the original file is utf8, and yes its the best alternative. I thing the hard thing to find out is exactly what type of encoding some files are - would be great if there was a duck-typing service where we could paste text or upload files and it would say - hey this looks like utf8 - but that?s asking too much ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 2 Sep 2021, 12:12 +0100, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode , wrote: > Sorry to drag us off the interesting topic of licensing :-) into some > Livecode question. > > I know little or nothing about Unicode, text encodings, etc. - so my > question is indeed naive. > > I have a text file (War & Peace from Project Gutenberg), about 3.4Mb. > The Mac describes it simply as "Plain text". > > When I read that into a variable, and then do > ??? replace tChar by SPACE in tWholeText > it takes between 1000 and 4000 millisecs - versus the 8-10 msecs I had > expected from other samples. > > If I put in > ? ? put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText > before the replace then it does indeed tae 8-10 msecs. > > Q1. What (if anything) am I losing by doing that ? > > Q2. Is this the best alternative ? > > Additional info - I just discovered that according to 'more' command > line, the file start with : > > The Project .... > > if that is useful. > > Many thanks, > > Alex. > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 08:22:57 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 13:22:57 +0100 Subject: Calling all fish! In-Reply-To: References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <06d7458b-3f14-49ba-8556-54edd930c17a@Spark> Don?t go , we love you :) The open source version, is alive. It just needs maintainers. Personally I think this move by LiveCode is healthy. We now have two choices a free open source edition maintained by the community, and a closed source version maintained by LiveCode LTD. If you want to use the commercial wizz-bang extras LiveCode LTD adds - then you can upgrade. In the meantime the language should go it?s own way. The language I believe has always wanted to be a free and open literate language, that enables anyone to code in an English like syntax. That vision was the foundation of the Kickstarter Campaign and was called Open Language. I believe the community should maintain that vision. I for one am going to dive in :) I see this in two parts. The first is preserving and maintaining the current code base. The LiveCode engine is rich and powerful. Using the current community edition you can create pretty well anything you want. Preserving this and strengthening the existing sharing of code, and documentation gets us a long way. Second I feel we should aspire to something meaningful and motivating for the future of the language. This would be a long term vision, with a lot of learning on the road there. This is how I see it for myself personally, and of course I would love it if I had some company on the way :) Open Language is something I know that is close to LiveCode Ltd?s heart, but it is hampered by the need to preserve the legacy??of maintaining complex and user-friendly IDE. That with the perceived commercial need to provide all the present abilities of the standalone builder mean that it is not a realistic proposition. However we can simplify by focussing only on the pure language as used by the server - this is a manageable task. Freeing Open Language from this legacy is a good thing. When it is truly free it can join on equal footing the other great languages out there, and still hopefully remain compatible with LiveCode Ltd?s commercial offering. For me my journey is about mastering the tools that enable the creation of modern languages, and these tools have come a long way. I?m heading on a family holiday now - but over the next two weeks - in discussion and with the advice of whoever is interested - Ill get a web site up for the project. ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 2 Sep 2021, 02:29 +0100, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode , wrote: > It?s, ?So long, and thanks for all the fish!? And unless you can do a double 360 back flip while passing through a smallish ring suspended above the pool, I remain unimpressed. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 17:53, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > > > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > > > > > i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert Plan subscription expires. > > > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous community for many years. > > > > Neville Smythe > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Thu Sep 2 09:03:56 2021 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 09:03:56 -0400 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: <8F47ACB3-C82A-4B4F-86D0-666D42F8BE33@mac.com> References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <8F47ACB3-C82A-4B4F-86D0-666D42F8BE33@mac.com> Message-ID: @keith ok, so run the numbers On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 7:56 AM Keith Martin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Unless someone?s hoarding gold that?s an interesting but not all that > useful pricing comparison. I prefer the Big Mac Index ( > https://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/ > < > https://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/>) > and regular historical inflation/value charts. ;) > > However, yes, we do get a lot from LC. > > k > > > > On 2 Sep 2021, at 09:38, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Over on the forum Kevin has been encouraging people to contact support > with > > any issues. Some are refusing to do so, making ridiculous demands in > > response. > > > > Yesterday I had a look at the historical prices to see if LC was > > significantly more expensive than Metacard: > > 2001 - Metacard ($995) [$288] > > 2005 - Revolution Enterprise (?899) [?243] > > 2021 - Livecode (3x distro platforms ?720) [?1316] > > > > In square brackets behind each is [the price of an ounce of gold] (if > > someone's got a better comparator, they can post it e.g. crude oil, pork > > bellies, cost of an entry level Mac, etc). > > > > So Metacard cost 3 ounces of gold, Rev Enterprise cost 3.7 oz of gold, > > today's Livecode equivalent costs 0.54 oz of gold. Even if one adds all > 7 > > of the distro platforms (3 of which certainly didn't exist in 2005), a > full > > Livecode license costs just over 1oz of gold, so between 1/3rd of the > price > > of 15 years ago (or as little as 1/6th the price of Metacard). > Objectively > > speaking, the customer today gets so much more for so much less. Apart > > from those who have been used to getting something for free. > > > > It was only this time last year I stated how amazing it was that Livecode > > manages all the complexity of producing software that runs on so many > > divergent platforms (I was navigating the version compatibilities of > Xcode, > > Android Studio, MacOS, iOS, AndroidOS, Windows OS, and Livecode), not to > > mention producing two different versions of Livecode (free and > > commercial). Something had to give. > > > > Regards, Bernard > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From m.schonewille at economy-x-talk.com Thu Sep 2 09:10:42 2021 From: m.schonewille at economy-x-talk.com (Drs Mark Schonewille) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:10:42 +0200 Subject: Calling all fish! In-Reply-To: <06d7458b-3f14-49ba-8556-54edd930c17a@Spark> References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <06d7458b-3f14-49ba-8556-54edd930c17a@Spark> Message-ID: <70943cc1-d1ab-2c71-0228-d2b0488dc6ce@economy-x-talk.com> David, I sent you an e-mail yesterday. Maybe in your spam box. Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk KvK 50277553 VAT NL002099948B21 https://ecxtalk.nl https://www.nt2.nu Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner http://www3.economy-x-talk.com/file.php?node=programming-livecode-for-the-real-beginner Op 2-9-2021 om 14:22 schreef David Bovill via use-livecode: > Don?t go , we love you :) > > The open source version, is alive. It just needs maintainers. Personally I think this move by LiveCode is healthy. We now have two choices a free open source edition maintained by the community, and a closed source version maintained by LiveCode LTD. If you want to use the commercial wizz-bang extras LiveCode LTD adds - then you can upgrade. > > In the meantime the language should go it?s own way. The language I believe has always wanted to be a free and open literate language, that enables anyone to code in an English like syntax. That vision was the foundation of the Kickstarter Campaign and was called Open Language. > > I believe the community should maintain that vision. I for one am going to dive in :) I see this in two parts. > > The first is preserving and maintaining the current code base. The LiveCode engine is rich and powerful. Using the current community edition you can create pretty well anything you want. Preserving this and strengthening the existing sharing of code, and documentation gets us a long way. > > Second I feel we should aspire to something meaningful and motivating for the future of the language. This would be a long term vision, with a lot of learning on the road there. This is how I see it for myself personally, and of course I would love it if I had some company on the way :) > > Open Language is something I know that is close to LiveCode Ltd?s heart, but it is hampered by the need to preserve the legacy??of maintaining complex and user-friendly IDE. That with the perceived commercial need to provide all the present abilities of the standalone builder mean that it is not a realistic proposition. However we can simplify by focussing only on the pure language as used by the server - this is a manageable task. > > Freeing Open Language from this legacy is a good thing. When it is truly free it can join on equal footing the other great languages out there, and still hopefully remain compatible with LiveCode Ltd?s commercial offering. For me my journey is about mastering the tools that enable the creation of modern languages, and these tools have come a long way. > > I?m heading on a family holiday now - but over the next two weeks - in discussion and with the advice of whoever is interested - Ill get a web site up for the project. > > ?? ??Schedule a call with me > On 2 Sep 2021, 02:29 +0100, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode , wrote: >> It?s, ?So long, and thanks for all the fish!? And unless you can do a double 360 back flip while passing through a smallish ring suspended above the pool, I remain unimpressed. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 1, 2021, at 17:53, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >>>> >>>> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert Plan subscription expires. >>> Not even Apple is that rapacious. >>> >>> I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. A great pity, but I guess times move on. >>> >>> I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous community for many years. >>> >>> Neville Smythe >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From michael-kristensen at dsa-net.dk Thu Sep 2 09:49:49 2021 From: michael-kristensen at dsa-net.dk (Michael Kristensen) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:49:49 +0200 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition Message-ID: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> Hi there I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. Michael From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Sep 2 10:20:50 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:20:50 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> Message-ID: <002001d7a005$be75f0c0$3b61d240$@net> This is a good idea. I sometimes use the IDE to do a quickie text manipulation task. A couple of buttons and some text file/db processing and BOOM! It's done in the fraction of the time of other languages. I have now done some text chunk coding that highlights many of LCs features. I can now buy a platform or two If I want to expand the IDE to building distributable apps. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 9:50 AM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: Michael Kristensen Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition Hi there I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. Michael _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 10:31:01 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 15:31:01 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> Message-ID: <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just download that. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode" wrote: Hi there I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. Michael _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Thu Sep 2 10:34:23 2021 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:34:23 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <002001d7a005$be75f0c0$3b61d240$@net> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <002001d7a005$be75f0c0$3b61d240$@net> Message-ID: I think this is (potentially) an excellent idea. Running stacks is more important in education use than building standalones, and the knowledge that a standalone CAN be made by simply ?trading up? to a paid-for version of LC might be an interesting sell. But I would be surprised if this sort of thing hasn?t already been considered. k > On 2 Sep 2021, at 15:20, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote: > > This is a good idea. I sometimes use the IDE to do a quickie text > manipulation task. A couple of buttons and some text file/db processing and > BOOM! It's done in the fraction of the time of other languages. I have now > done some text chunk coding that highlights many of LCs features. I can now > buy a platform or two If I want to expand the IDE to building distributable > apps. > > Ralph DiMola > IT Director > Evergreen Information Services > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf > Of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 9:50 AM > To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Cc: Michael Kristensen > Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > Hi there > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From danoldboy at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 10:41:54 2021 From: danoldboy at gmail.com (Dan Brown) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:41:54 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> Message-ID: Everyone who needs to run an app can download an old installer to run (and build) it right now. There will always be a subset of people looking to game a given system but thinking in the positive, a non committal download that doesn't allow builds is a great way to reduce friction On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 3:31 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free non-app > building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just download that. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Hi there > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From irog at mac.com Thu Sep 2 10:50:57 2021 From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 07:50:57 -0700 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <002001d7a005$be75f0c0$3b61d240$@net> Message-ID: Sounds like a very cool idea to me, but I?m sure it?s complicated! I trust LC to do what?s best for its future. Roger > On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:34 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: > > I think this is (potentially) an excellent idea. Running stacks is more important in education use than building standalones, and the knowledge that a standalone CAN be made by simply ?trading up? to a paid-for version of LC might be an interesting sell. But I would be surprised if this sort of thing hasn?t already been considered. > > k > > >> On 2 Sep 2021, at 15:20, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote: >> >> This is a good idea. I sometimes use the IDE to do a quickie text >> manipulation task. A couple of buttons and some text file/db processing and >> BOOM! It's done in the fraction of the time of other languages. I have now >> done some text chunk coding that highlights many of LCs features. I can now >> buy a platform or two If I want to expand the IDE to building distributable >> apps. >> >> Ralph DiMola >> IT Director >> Evergreen Information Services >> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf >> Of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode >> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 9:50 AM >> To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Cc: Michael Kristensen >> Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition >> >> Hi there >> >> I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition >> >> That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription >> preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Sep 2 10:51:33 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:51:33 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> Message-ID: <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> True, true. There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I would not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just download that. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode" wrote: Hi there I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. Michael _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 10:55:14 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 15:55:14 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> Message-ID: <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a longer trial a shot at some point. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via use-livecode" wrote: True, true. There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I would not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just download that. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode" wrote: Hi there I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. Michael _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Thu Sep 2 11:06:45 2021 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:06:45 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> Message-ID: I don't know how much of a difference the compiling/building makes. While it is true that anyone who wants to "run an app" (even that's obviously incorrect, since stacks <> apps) can just download the free version, there is no way for that author to protect the source. Is that enough of an incentive for someone to pay up - so they can build an app instead of distributing an unlocked stack? I don't know. Will cutting them off from tsNet, or building/distributing mobile/server/web matter? Again, dunno. I am curious to know how much business any firm generates from either a trial or from a free version - like how many people take a flier and then decide to pay up as a result. My hunch is that more people grow from a free version to a paid version than grow from a free trial to a paid version. I think free trials are more like test drives. At any rate, I'm hoping that LC can make money. On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:52 AM Ralph DiMola via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > True, true. > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around but > you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a programming > IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other supporting files, > SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I would not dismiss this > out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. > > Ralph DiMola > IT Director > Evergreen Information Services > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free non-app > building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just download that. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Hi there > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From david.bovill at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 10:23:53 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:23:53 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> Message-ID: <84b05aac-6a33-4bce-ba32-878eb1446bac@Spark> That?s an interesting idea. I?m wondering if a bit of terminology is helpful here - there seem to be two distinct things that have been put together previously - community and open source. The needs of the two are not always aligned - especially with LiveCode where an easy to use well documented and low cost community edition is not necessarily the sane as an open source software that might be quite geeky. For me it makes more sense for LiveCode LTD to focus on easy to use products that are packaged for community and commercial use, while the open source aspect fits the needs of more specialised developers. We could achieve both, that is your proposal for a non-app building open source version for easy introduction and learning of the language and something developers would find interesting to work on - if the focus was on the core of the language that runs on the server. That way there can be a web experience which is accessible, but you would want to buy the commercial edition if you wanted to develop apps and leverage more advanced tools. ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 2 Sep 2021, 14:51 +0100, Michael Kristensen via use-livecode , wrote: > Hi there > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From david.bovill at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 11:14:33 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 16:14:33 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> Message-ID: <808f67fd-8a36-492a-9db3-43f418152bd0@Spark> A web only version however that allowed you to learn and experiment with the language and develop free and open source server side code would not suffer this limitation. You would not be able to use that to build apps. There are options to retain open source community versions that do not canabalise the app making aspect of the business. ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 2 Sep 2021, 15:31 +0100, Kevin Miller via use-livecode , wrote: > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just download that. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode" wrote: > > Hi there > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Sep 2 11:16:43 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:16:43 +0000 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: +1 > On Sep 2, 2021, at 01:38 , Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > > Over on the forum Kevin has been encouraging people to contact support with > any issues. Some are refusing to do so, making ridiculous demands in > response. > > Yesterday I had a look at the historical prices to see if LC was > significantly more expensive than Metacard: > 2001 - Metacard ($995) [$288] > 2005 - Revolution Enterprise (?899) [?243] > 2021 - Livecode (3x distro platforms ?720) [?1316] > > In square brackets behind each is [the price of an ounce of gold] (if > someone's got a better comparator, they can post it e.g. crude oil, pork > bellies, cost of an entry level Mac, etc). > > So Metacard cost 3 ounces of gold, Rev Enterprise cost 3.7 oz of gold, > today's Livecode equivalent costs 0.54 oz of gold. Even if one adds all 7 > of the distro platforms (3 of which certainly didn't exist in 2005), a full > Livecode license costs just over 1oz of gold, so between 1/3rd of the price > of 15 years ago (or as little as 1/6th the price of Metacard). Objectively > speaking, the customer today gets so much more for so much less. Apart > from those who have been used to getting something for free. > > It was only this time last year I stated how amazing it was that Livecode > manages all the complexity of producing software that runs on so many > divergent platforms (I was navigating the version compatibilities of Xcode, > Android Studio, MacOS, iOS, AndroidOS, Windows OS, and Livecode), not to > mention producing two different versions of Livecode (free and > commercial). Something had to give. > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bdrunrev at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 12:05:41 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:05:41 +0100 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: <6D749A76-CD56-49E8-B98E-133D60EEFF44@gmail.com> References: <6D749A76-CD56-49E8-B98E-133D60EEFF44@gmail.com> Message-ID: I see that some of "the community" have now uploaded dozens of the installers from the old Livecode page to archive.org. https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22LiveCode%2C+Inc.%22 I don't know what LC Ltd's thinking was in deleting the old pages, but clearly some of "the community" are doing all they can to thwart LC Ltd. The tragedy of the commons. On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 11:49 PM doc hawk via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Kevin kayaked, > >Look what happened to Open Office. It died because no one wanted to work > on it. > > ??? > > The bulk of the developers bolted and formed LibreOffice from the OO > codebase. It?s alive and well--I just downloaded a new version this > morning. > > It isn?t that OO faded or died, but that no-one liked the new overlords > when Oracle acquired Sun. The project itself is thriving under the new > name. > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From harrison at all-auctions.com Thu Sep 2 12:13:18 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:13:18 -0400 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ED05AF1-4961-4598-992C-382512757471@all-auctions.com> Hi Dan, Yes, there were a lot of us who specifically contributed to make the Community version possible as open source. One of the justifications was that if the company went under we would still have the Community version available to us. The promise that the company would also support it was equally appealing. While the original intent was to use the Community version to widen the user base, and get more paying customers, it apparently didn?t get enough of them to be able to justify sustaining the Community version. I can understand why there are users who feel betrayed by the company especially with the new pricing structure, and the discontinuance of support for the Community version which was even paid for in a marketing campaign in advance of it?s release. It can seem that the company keeps increasing it?s prices while taking away functionality by forcing users to select which specific platforms to be able to deploy to. That seems to go against the idea of coding once and being able to deploy to all platforms in one affordable package. Access to the Community version is still very important as that is how many users were first introduced to LiveCode who then became paying customers. I believe the try it before buying model is still very important for helping users to make the purchase decision. It would be nice if the company were willing to provide the final version of the Community version under an MIT license instead of GPL since they will no longer be supporting it at all, and it marks a true fork in the road from the codebase going forward. That might make the transition easier to accept for some users. Continually making users of your product feel disappointed or angry isn?t a good marketing strategy. The happier you can make your customers the better your business will be! I think it?s great that the CEO is interested in negotiating with those users who feel they can?t afford the new pricing structure, which is certainly something one would never see with large companies like Disney. The LC community is going through a shock with so much change that had no gradual hints about it. Acceptance of the changes will take time as it always does, but we will adjust. Just my 2 cent observations for the day. Rick > On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Dan Brown via use-livecode wrote: > > That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was > contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years? > $600k > From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Thu Sep 2 12:17:49 2021 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 12:17:49 -0400 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: <6D749A76-CD56-49E8-B98E-133D60EEFF44@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was not paying that close attention to all the details. Did LC take the current community installer down? If they did not, then this act seems odd. If they did, then I am not surprised. On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 12:07 PM Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I see that some of "the community" have now uploaded dozens of the > installers from the old Livecode page to archive.org. > > https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22LiveCode%2C+Inc.%22 > > I don't know what LC Ltd's thinking was in deleting the old pages, but > clearly some of "the community" are doing all they can to thwart LC Ltd. > The tragedy of the commons. > > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 11:49 PM doc hawk via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Kevin kayaked, > > >Look what happened to Open Office. It died because no one wanted to work > > on it. > > > > ??? > > > > The bulk of the developers bolted and formed LibreOffice from the OO > > codebase. It?s alive and well--I just downloaded a new version this > > morning. > > > > It isn?t that OO faded or died, but that no-one liked the new overlords > > when Oracle acquired Sun. The project itself is thriving under the new > > name. > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From dochawk at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 13:11:34 2021 From: dochawk at gmail.com (doc hawk) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:11:34 -0700 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <6ED05AF1-4961-4598-992C-382512757471@all-auctions.com> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <6ED05AF1-4961-4598-992C-382512757471@all-auctions.com> Message-ID: Rick rumbled, > It would be nice if the company were willing to provide the final version of the Community > version under an MIT license instead of GPL since they will no longer be supporting it at all, and > it marks a true fork in the road from the codebase going forward. While it sounds nice, and would address a certain need, it simply isn?t practical. I wrote the seminal economic paper on the economics of open source for the firm. A BSD license release would be downright suicidal, as it could be a ?most of the way there? stepping stone for a commercial competitor. From kee.nethery at elloco.com Thu Sep 2 13:15:37 2021 From: kee.nethery at elloco.com (Kee Nethery) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 10:15:37 -0700 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like the idea of a free version that does not compile into an app. Lets schools teach LiveCode and lets people learn it before deciding to buy it. My two cents Kee Nethery From keith.clarke at me.com Thu Sep 2 13:27:32 2021 From: keith.clarke at me.com (Keith Clarke) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 18:27:32 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <002001d7a005$be75f0c0$3b61d240$@net> Message-ID: <5E77099C-6231-452B-8B89-70E50A5678C2@me.com> I came to Livecode from lightweight website hackery - cobbling together HTML & CSS as a non-coder (using W3schools guidance for every live of javascript). I was (and still am) relieved by the higher-level English-like language of Livecode. None of the (dozens of) utilities I?ve created for my personal & small business use have ever needed to move beyond the IDE - or a single card for that matter. The Livecode IDE has become a personal toolbelt item for me. If the Livecode team can keep this ?personal toolbelt? IDE concept available to students for free (and home users for little) - the way Microsoft does with Office - could bring through the next generation of paying developers. But one doesn?t reach the long-term without passing through the short-term. So, meanwhile, they need to do what they must to keep the ship afloat and the crew inspired. Just my tuppence-worth. Best, Keith > On 2 Sep 2021, at 15:50, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote: > > Sounds like a very cool idea to me, but I?m sure it?s complicated! I trust LC to do what?s best for its future. > > Roger > > >> On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:34 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I think this is (potentially) an excellent idea. Running stacks is more important in education use than building standalones, and the knowledge that a standalone CAN be made by simply ?trading up? to a paid-for version of LC might be an interesting sell. But I would be surprised if this sort of thing hasn?t already been considered. >> >> k >> >> >>> On 2 Sep 2021, at 15:20, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> This is a good idea. I sometimes use the IDE to do a quickie text >>> manipulation task. A couple of buttons and some text file/db processing and >>> BOOM! It's done in the fraction of the time of other languages. I have now >>> done some text chunk coding that highlights many of LCs features. I can now >>> buy a platform or two If I want to expand the IDE to building distributable >>> apps. >>> >>> Ralph DiMola >>> IT Director >>> Evergreen Information Services >>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf >>> Of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode >>> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 9:50 AM >>> To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Cc: Michael Kristensen >>> Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition >>> >>> Hi there >>> >>> I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition >>> >>> That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription >>> preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mark at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 13:34:22 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 18:34:22 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <50db31a688c5ace8eb9aea5abbd43b62@livecode.com> On 2021-09-02 12:12, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > Sorry to drag us off the interesting topic of licensing :-) into some > Livecode question. > > I know little or nothing about Unicode, text encodings, etc. - so my > question is indeed naive. > > I have a text file (War & Peace from Project Gutenberg), about 3.4Mb. > The Mac describes it simply as "Plain text". Do you have a link to the file handy? > > When I read that into a variable, and then do > ??? replace tChar by SPACE in tWholeText > it takes between 1000 and 4000 millisecs - versus the 8-10 msecs I had > expected from other samples. > > If I put in > ? ? put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText > before the replace then it does indeed tae 8-10 msecs. What exact code are you using in both cases? (including reading in the file, char you are replacing etc.) > Additional info - I just discovered that according to 'more' command > line, the file start with : > > The Project .... That suggests the file is unicode encoded - it is a 'byte order mark'. The character itself is the 'undefined/illegal codepoint' which has a different sequence of bytes for each of the main (UTF-8/16LE,BE/32LE,BE) encodings. If you do `hexdump -c | less` on the file, then if it is UTF-8 there will be three bytes before the T, or 4 if it is UTF-16. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Sep 2 13:34:02 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 18:34:02 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <6ED05AF1-4961-4598-992C-382512757471@all-auctions.com> References: <6ED05AF1-4961-4598-992C-382512757471@all-auctions.com> Message-ID: <80A16E83-10C2-470E-B6EC-9D2DC5E9FCC5@pidigital.co.uk> Rick has brought to mind an interesting point about the new pricing model. It?s one that I think of occasionally. Currently and in the new model we pay for each deployment. But it?s a bit odd. Surely what we should be paying for is the Core engine and then smaller amounts for each deployment module we wish to add in. As it is we are paying say $300 for Win/Mac/Lin then $300 for iOS then $300 for html (which doesn?t work, but that?s a whole other thread) and so on. Now we?re being told we?re going to have to pay for Win, then Mac, then Lin then HTML and so on. It just seems a bit off to me. Needless to say, because of my commitments, I am forced to do whatever LC impose on us and there?s not a great deal I or any of us can do about it. They could raise it by $1M per platform and I?d still have to put myself into bankruptcy territory to carry on with my work. I?m just saying, it ?feels? a little off. I?m hoping the the calculator on the pricing page is just majorly broken. Here?s the calculations as it stands for the new Standard Plan. 1 platform = $300 2 platforms = $500 ($200 more) 3 platforms = $900 (another $400 more ??) 4 platforms = $1000 ($100 more ????) 5 platforms = $1500 ($500 more [mind blown]) 6 platforms = $1800 ($300 more) All 7 platforms = $2000 ($200 more) To say it?s inconsistent would be the understatement of the millennia. Add Email support and/or the pro features pack and the numbers are even more baffling. Barmy! Hopefully Kevin/Heather can put us right on how the pricing was worked out coz I?m blown if I can work it out as a mathematician. Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 2 Sep 2021, at 17:13, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Hi Dan, > > Yes, there were a lot of us who specifically contributed to make the Community version possible > as open source. One of the justifications was that if the company went under we would still have > the Community version available to us. The promise that the company would also support it was > equally appealing. While the original intent was to use the Community version to widen the user > base, and get more paying customers, it apparently didn?t get enough of them to be able to > justify sustaining the Community version. > > I can understand why there are users who feel betrayed by the company especially with the new > pricing structure, and the discontinuance of support for the Community version which was even > paid for in a marketing campaign in advance of it?s release. > > It can seem that the company keeps increasing it?s prices while taking away functionality by > forcing users to select which specific platforms to be able to deploy to. That seems to go against > the idea of coding once and being able to deploy to all platforms in one affordable package. > > Access to the Community version is still very important as that is how many users were first > introduced to LiveCode who then became paying customers. I believe the try it before buying > model is still very important for helping users to make the purchase decision. > > It would be nice if the company were willing to provide the final version of the Community > version under an MIT license instead of GPL since they will no longer be supporting it at all, and > it marks a true fork in the road from the codebase going forward. That might make the transition > easier to accept for some users. Continually making users of your product feel disappointed > or angry isn?t a good marketing strategy. The happier you can make your customers the better > your business will be! > > I think it?s great that the CEO is interested in negotiating with those users who feel they can?t > afford the new pricing structure, which is certainly something one would never see with > large companies like Disney. > > The LC community is going through a shock with so much change that had no gradual hints > about it. Acceptance of the changes will take time as it always does, but we will adjust. > > Just my 2 cent observations for the day. > > Rick > >> On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Dan Brown via use-livecode wrote: >> >> That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was >> contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years? > $600k >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mark at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 13:38:52 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 18:38:52 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> Message-ID: On 2021-08-30 20:22, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks to Mark Waddingham's advice about using a buffer var when > accumulating a large text variabel in stages, I've now got a script > that took 8 hours under LC9, and (8 minutes under LC6) down by stages > to just under 1 hour under LC9. > > Has anyone else noticed something of this sort? As I said, the effect > varies: e.g. 54 seconds versus 1 second; 22 seconds versus 1 second. > So it may not be so noticeable in all cases. It will undoubtedly be the same problem as your accumulation slowness - as the sort routines use (essentially) `put after` to reconstruct the string after sort. So fixing the accumulation slowness will fix sort. Indeed, there's a further optimization to be had in sort now I come to think of it (probably relatively minor after the accumulation problem is sorted) - the sorted buffer size (in chars) will be the same as the input buffer size as its just a permutation of the lines - so the output buffer can be pre-allocated at the right size. We will endeavour to fix for 9.6.5-rc-1 (due 'real soon now'!). Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From mark at livecode.com Thu Sep 2 13:40:55 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 18:40:55 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: <50db31a688c5ace8eb9aea5abbd43b62@livecode.com> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <50db31a688c5ace8eb9aea5abbd43b62@livecode.com> Message-ID: <73cf23a01de1906577fe41c953569a48@livecode.com> On 2021-09-02 18:34, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > The character itself is the 'undefined/illegal codepoint' which has a > different sequence of bytes for each of the main > (UTF-8/16LE,BE/32LE,BE) encodings. If you do `hexdump -c | less` on > the file, then if it is UTF-8 there will be three bytes before the T, > or 4 if it is UTF-16. Correcting myself - 4 if it is UTF-32 (which is exceptionally unlikely); 2 if it is UTF-16. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From bduck at mac.com Thu Sep 2 13:56:23 2021 From: bduck at mac.com (Brian K. Duck) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 13:56:23 -0400 Subject: Length of Trial for xAPI Cohort use Message-ID: <3DC2D35C-3CA2-432C-9EC1-5A05E34544C4@mac.com> ? Kevin, I recently led a project where a group of programmers from this list stepped up and taught LiveCode to a group of Instructional Designers as part of the Spring xAPI Cohort. We were able to build a minimum viable product in a few weeks, share the code in GitHub and make multiple project improvements by working in parallel. The project status was reported out in the weekly cohort sessions and captured in GitHub, project meetings and demos were recorded and published in YouTube videos and GitHub, and the final projects were demonstrated during the xAPI Cohort final session and xAPI Party. The final session and xAPI Party we?re recorded and archived for later viewing. ?The xAPI Learning Cohort is a free, vendor-neutral, 12-week learning-by-doing project-based team learning experience about the Experience API. ? So, a 12 week trial to meet the semester long session would match the needs of educators better than a 30 or 90 day trial. Brian MORE DETAILS on the xAPI Cohort Register here: https://xapicohort.com/ Email will be sent with meeting and slack messaging info, later you will receive info on how to join the cohort GitHub for details on current and past projects. It?s FREE, and starts TODAY. 9/2/21 at 2PM Eastern (Forgive the redundancy, I?m copying and pasting on an iPad!) If you miss a session, the url for the recording is sent to those registered. (Yep, you read that right ? free!) It?s an opportunity for those who are brand new to xAPI and those who are looking to experiment with it to learn from each other and from the work itself. Participants form teams based on shared interests and work together on an xAPI project. Each cohort features some predefined projects so you can jump right into something that sounds interesting and of course you can come with your own project idea and gather a team around you to get moving (or bring your team!). Past projects have included an onboarding checklist that leverages the Internet of Things (IoT), a game that tracks user clicks as a way to identify UX gaps, and exploration of LMS-LRS interoperability. xAPI Learning Cohorts run twice a year in spring and fall ?semesters? with weekly all-group web meetings on Thursdays 2pm US Eastern Time chock-full of introductory information, practical how-tos, and high-level discussions of the implications for our industry. Teams work on real-life projects that interest them and set their own meeting and working schedules. Oh, and it?s ok to just hang out on the sidelines and observe the action if taking on a team project is too much right now. It?s also ok to participate on more than one project team during a Cohort session. Best of all, the Cohort is FREE, virtual (so anyone anywhere in the world can participate), and tool/platform agnostic. From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Sep 2 14:06:56 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:06:56 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?I=E2=80=99m_a_software_engineer,_not_a_platform_engine?= =?utf-8?Q?er.?= Message-ID: <74E63BAE-53F0-42C1-B846-6CDAFFE756CB@pidigital.co.uk> Peace to all at this difficult time. My working structure doesn?t seem to fit in with the new ?model? that LiveCode have imposed on us earlier this week. I understand their need to change and up their methodology. And I?m sure their model probably does fit the vast majority of LC users and will benefit them greatly. But it doesn?t fit mine even closely. I?m a software engineer, not specifically to any platform. As a freelancer I work where the need is. Any given client will have any number of needs. My main client work is almost exclusively for the Windows environment although we were trying to get it moved over to HTML. This failed because the LC deployment to that platform was not fit for use and so we await eagerly LC10 (despite continuing to have to pay the subscription while they fix it). We have also used the Linux deployment for a period until CentOS got dropped from our server. But other clients, especially in the TV, Film and AV industry, could require software being produced for any given platform depending on their needs. These projects last little more than a month. But I have to pay for a full years licence as and when I?d need it. But I won?t be able to get a ?bundle discount? as they put it. But they don?t hold prices for upgrading a current subscription. So one can only assume they will carry on charging $300 per platform per year plus any other addons. What LiveCode (and probably most on here) would say is that I should have to charge whatever deployment fee I have to pay on top of my usual fees. Which sounds ok except for many of these quick turnaround jobs it basically makes it unviable to the end clients. So I?m guessing that means most of my clients will disappear. Again. Or I am forced to buy all platforms ?just in case? and try to absorb the cost into future possible work. Which sucks. And is there in no way equivalent to what I currently pay. I don?t know how this will play out for me. It?s all a bit skewed and too fresh in my mental inbox at the moment to fully comprehend. Time will tell. I?m still waiting to hear from Heather what they are offering for when my next sub ends. I?m hoping they take all of the above into account. All the best to all of you. Sean Pi From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Sep 2 14:13:55 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:13:55 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <5E77099C-6231-452B-8B89-70E50A5678C2@me.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <002001d7a005$be75f0c0$3b61d240$@net> <5E77099C-6231-452B-8B89-70E50A5678C2@me.com> Message-ID: Kevin, Keeping a short trial gives the impression of a lack of confidence in the platforms ability to prove and provide its value. a 90 day trial would allow people to really dive in, to start on their project, and help to ensure that decisions are not rushed. I just can't see how a short trial works better for livecode. It literally forces people to decide, and when they are forced to decide, that may put the company on the losing end. Let the platform prove its value to the user. 60 or 90 days projects confidence.10 days does not. Just my 2 cents on that...... Thanks, Tom On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 1:28 PM Keith Clarke via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I came to Livecode from lightweight website hackery - cobbling together > HTML & CSS as a non-coder (using W3schools guidance for every live of > javascript). I was (and still am) relieved by the higher-level English-like > language of Livecode. > > None of the (dozens of) utilities I?ve created for my personal & small > business use have ever needed to move beyond the IDE - or a single card for > that matter. The Livecode IDE has become a personal toolbelt item for me. > > If the Livecode team can keep this ?personal toolbelt? IDE concept > available to students for free (and home users for little) - the way > Microsoft does with Office - could bring through the next generation of > paying developers. But one doesn?t reach the long-term without passing > through the short-term. So, meanwhile, they need to do what they must to > keep the ship afloat and the crew inspired. > > Just my tuppence-worth. > Best, > Keith > > > On 2 Sep 2021, at 15:50, Roger Guay via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Sounds like a very cool idea to me, but I?m sure it?s complicated! I > trust LC to do what?s best for its future. > > > > Roger > > > > > >> On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:34 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> I think this is (potentially) an excellent idea. Running stacks is more > important in education use than building standalones, and the knowledge > that a standalone CAN be made by simply ?trading up? to a paid-for version > of LC might be an interesting sell. But I would be surprised if this sort > of thing hasn?t already been considered. > >> > >> k > >> > >> > >>> On 2 Sep 2021, at 15:20, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> This is a good idea. I sometimes use the IDE to do a quickie text > >>> manipulation task. A couple of buttons and some text file/db > processing and > >>> BOOM! It's done in the fraction of the time of other languages. I have > now > >>> done some text chunk coding that highlights many of LCs features. I > can now > >>> buy a platform or two If I want to expand the IDE to building > distributable > >>> apps. > >>> > >>> Ralph DiMola > >>> IT Director > >>> Evergreen Information Services > >>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > Behalf > >>> Of Michael Kristensen via use-livecode > >>> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 9:50 AM > >>> To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Cc: Michael Kristensen > >>> Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > >>> > >>> Hi there > >>> > >>> I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > >>> > >>> That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > >>> > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription > >>> preferences: > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From bdrunrev at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 14:18:46 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:18:46 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <6ED05AF1-4961-4598-992C-382512757471@all-auctions.com> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <6ED05AF1-4961-4598-992C-382512757471@all-auctions.com> Message-ID: >> I can understand why there are users who feel betrayed by the company especially with the new pricing structure, and the discontinuance of support for the Community version which was even paid for in a marketing campaign in advance of it?s release. << The vast majority of the money contributed to the Kickstarter received a commercial license in the days after the Kickstarter closed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28379192 I've contributed to other very high profile projects, where within a year or so of completion the vendors lost interest in the project and discontinued it and my _installed_ copy stopped working. No answer from customer support, the company had the money and just moved on. No-one who contributed to the Kickstarter received that kind of treatment from LC Ltd. >> It can seem that the company keeps increasing it?s prices while taking away functionality by forcing users to select which specific platforms to be able to deploy to. That seems to go against the idea of coding once and being able to deploy to all platforms in one affordable package. << LC deploying to 3 platforms is still cheaper now than Revolution Enterprise was 15 years ago. >> Access to the Community version is still very important as that is how many users were first introduced to LiveCode who then became paying customers. I believe the try it before buying model is still very important for helping users to make the purchase decision. << "... who then became paying customers..." If that was true I don't think LC Ltd would have felt the need to terminate the free offering. There are lots of people who have admitted that they didn't see the point in paying for a license when the free version could do 99% of what the licensed version could do. The tragedy is that many people are too selfish to see the bigger picture. I know dozens of parents who spend far more on the mobile phone contracts for their children than the LC starter license costs. Those parents know they can't get a free phone for their kids so they pay up. On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:14 PM Rick Harrison via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Dan Brown via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > That's a bit harsh, are you forgetting the amount of money that was > > contributed by users to the fund raisers over the years? > $600k > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 2 14:23:13 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:23:13 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: <50db31a688c5ace8eb9aea5abbd43b62@livecode.com> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <50db31a688c5ace8eb9aea5abbd43b62@livecode.com> Message-ID: <64450302-c0b3-0207-3e90-b15dd3dcaee7@tweedly.net> On 02/09/2021 18:34, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > On 2021-09-02 12:12, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >> Sorry to drag us off the interesting topic of licensing :-) into some >> Livecode question. >> >> I know little or nothing about Unicode, text encodings, etc. - so my >> question is indeed naive. >> >> I have a text file (War & Peace from Project Gutenberg), about 3.4Mb. >> The Mac describes it simply as "Plain text". > > Do you have a link to the file handy? https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2600 and then chose "Plain Text UTF-8" or directly to https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2600/2600-0.txt (and then I saved that page to file). > >> >> When I read that into a variable, and then do >> ??? replace tChar by SPACE in tWholeText >> it takes between 1000 and 4000 millisecs - versus the 8-10 msecs I had >> expected from other samples. >> >> If I put in >> ? ? put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText >> before the replace then it does indeed tae 8-10 msecs. > > What exact code are you using in both cases? (including reading in the > file, char you are replacing etc.) ?? put URL ("file:" & specialFolderPath("home") & "/warpeace.txt") into tText and then > ?? put quote&"!?,.:;[]{}()?$?%^&???<>=+-??????#???*???\/" into tList > ?? -- put textencode(pStr, "UTF8") into pStr > ?? repeat for each char tChar in tList > ????? --????? put the millisecs into t1 > ????? replace tChar with space in pStr > ????? --????? put the millisecs - t1 && tChar &CR after msg > ????? wait 0 millisecs with messages > ????? --????? if the shiftkey is down then exit repeat > ?? end repeat Obviously, comment those lines in or out as needed. (NB yes the times I gave are for *each* char replace, not for the whole loop) > The character itself is the 'undefined/illegal codepoint' which has a > different sequence of bytes for each of the main > (UTF-8/16LE,BE/32LE,BE) encodings. If you do `hexdump -c | less` on > the file, then if it is UTF-8 there will be three bytes before the T, > or 4 if it is UTF-16. > Three characters, confirming the identification in the original webpage. Thanks, Alex. From bdrunrev at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 14:22:31 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:22:31 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> Message-ID: Whilst waiting for a fix, would a temporary solution be to use sqlite to create an in-memory database and let sqlite do the sorting for you? Regards, Bernard. On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 8:23 PM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Thanks to Mark Waddingham's advice about using a buffer var when > accumulating > a large text variabel in stages, I've now got a script that took 8 hours > under > LC9, and (8 minutes under LC6) down by stages to just under 1 hour under > LC9. > > However I have some remaining issues not amenable to this approach; of > which > the most significant relates to the sort command. > > In all cases it seems to take much longer under LC9 than it did under LC6; > although the factor is quite variable. The most dramatic is one instance, > in > which this statement: > > sort lines of tNewTable by item iSortCol of each > > takes 35 minutes to execute. `tNewTable` is a variable consisting of some > 223,000 lines of text; approx 70MB. The exact same statement with the same > data on the same computer in LC6 takes just 1 second. > > Has anyone else noticed something of this sort? As I said, the effect > varies: > e.g. 54 seconds versus 1 second; 22 seconds versus 1 second. So it may not > be > so noticeable in all cases. > > TIA, > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Thu Sep 2 14:25:28 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 13:25:28 -0500 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <80A16E83-10C2-470E-B6EC-9D2DC5E9FCC5@pidigital.co.uk> References: <6ED05AF1-4961-4598-992C-382512757471@all-auctions.com> <80A16E83-10C2-470E-B6EC-9D2DC5E9FCC5@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: <548770e4-5873-c0e6-dc4d-60b203719fa5@hyperactivesw.com> On 9/2/21 12:34 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > Here?s the calculations as it stands for the new Standard Plan. > > 1 platform = $300 > 2 platforms = $500 ($200 more) > 3 platforms = $900 (another $400 more ??) > 4 platforms = $1000 ($100 more ????) > 5 platforms = $1500 ($500 more [mind blown]) > 6 platforms = $1800 ($300 more) > All 7 platforms = $2000 ($200 more) > > To say it?s inconsistent would be the understatement of the millennia. The way I figure it, each platform is $300. But since many of us build for the two major ones (Mac and Windows) you get a $100 discount for that bundle. After that it's $300 each except for 4 and 7 platforms, where there's also a discount. I don't know for sure, but I suspect those three discounted combinations are the most commonly used amoung the user base. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From dan at clearvisiontech.com Thu Sep 2 14:44:11 2021 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 18:44:11 +0000 Subject: Custom URLs In-Reply-To: <25D89323-C14A-4357-A6FD-1E57C1FD57DF@mac.com> References: <8A3FF2CC-B2C1-4155-80B9-94694C6253AC@clearvisiontech.com> <25D89323-C14A-4357-A6FD-1E57C1FD57DF@mac.com> Message-ID: Keith, Thanks for the assist... In some cases a http call will open the mobile app if it's installed. For example, https://m.facebook.com will launch the mobile app. However, now with further testing, I have a new problem. On android, if the app isn't installed it's not returning "no association". The result is empty. Must be a bug! I'm using LC Business 9.6.2 Thank you! -Dan ?On 9/1/21, 10:36 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Keith Martin via use-livecode" wrote: Only one thought: the protocols that do work on iOS are general declarations that are routed to an app/service as the host OS thinks is appropriate. Less common ones and app-specific ones do have to be registered... in the app that wants to be able RECEIVE them. So if the FB app doesn?t have that set up already it seems it can?t be done. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/defining-a-custom-url-scheme-for-your-app Would it work well enough to use a regular https URL to the resource on Facebook? It would open in the user?s browser, but it may be enough. k > On 1 Sep 2021, at 18:04, Dan Friedman via use-livecode wrote: > > I need a little help here... > > I am creating a mobile app for a client that wants to simply launch another app. To do this, I am trying to use a custom url to launch an external app. For example: > > launch url "fb:" > > This works fine on Android, but on iOS, I get "no association" (yes, Facebook is installed). Then I read that you have to enter the Custom URLs you want to use in the "App URL Query Whitelist" area in the Application Builder. Is this true? Why does the app have to know at compile time what URLs are going to be opened? In my app's case, client can change and edit the list on a server, so the list of apps to launch are received by the our app at launch. > > "mailto:", "http:", "music:" and "tel:" all work just fine on iOS without being included in the App URL Query Whitelist. > > Anyone have any insight to this process? > > Thanks in advance! > -Dan > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dan at clearvisiontech.com Thu Sep 2 14:55:24 2021 From: dan at clearvisiontech.com (Dan Friedman) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 18:55:24 +0000 Subject: Custom URLs In-Reply-To: References: <8A3FF2CC-B2C1-4155-80B9-94694C6253AC@clearvisiontech.com> <996df127-e2ef-46b5-b8ea-815c11c6a903@Spark> Message-ID: <216B9ABD-462D-4816-8111-E9837C8FDCB6@clearvisiontech.com> Sean, Thank you! But, these solutions require that the Custom URL is added to the app at deployment. Not going to work for my client. I was looking to get an understanding as to why these URLs need to be in the pList. Not sure of the reasoning behind this... I need to be able to explain to client why I can't deliver their desired functionalty. Thank you! -Dan ?On 9/1/21, 2:34 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode" wrote: Dan, These will be useful to you: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21893447/facebook-sdk-app-not-registered-as-a-url-scheme https://github.com/facebookarchive/react-native-fbsdk/issues/707 Pi On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 18:38, David Bovill via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I don?t know Dan as its been a while since I looked into this - but it > sounds like a typical security thing Apple insists on for the AppStore? > They tend (when compared to Android), to lock that sort of thing down save > for a few standard (internet) url schema. > > ? Schedule a call with me > On 1 Sep 2021, 18:05 +0100, Dan Friedman via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > I need a little help here... > > > > I am creating a mobile app for a client that wants to simply launch > another app. To do this, I am trying to use a custom url to launch an > external app. For example: > > > > launch url "fb:" > > > > This works fine on Android, but on iOS, I get "no association" (yes, > Facebook is installed). Then I read that you have to enter the Custom URLs > you want to use in the "App URL Query Whitelist" area in the Application > Builder. Is this true? Why does the app have to know at compile time what > URLs are going to be opened? In my app's case, client can change and edit > the list on a server, so the list of apps to launch are received by the our > app at launch. > > > > "mailto:", "http:", "music:" and "tel:" all work just fine on iOS > without being included in the App URL Query Whitelist. > > > > Anyone have any insight to this process? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > -Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Thu Sep 2 15:07:32 2021 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 15:07:32 -0400 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: <6D749A76-CD56-49E8-B98E-133D60EEFF44@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd also be curious how the new model compares to xojo On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 12:17 PM Mike Kerner wrote: > I was not paying that close attention to all the details. Did LC take the > current community installer down? If they did not, then this act seems odd. > If they did, then I am not surprised. > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 12:07 PM Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I see that some of "the community" have now uploaded dozens of the >> installers from the old Livecode page to archive.org. >> >> https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22LiveCode%2C+Inc.%22 >> >> I don't know what LC Ltd's thinking was in deleting the old pages, but >> clearly some of "the community" are doing all they can to thwart LC Ltd. >> The tragedy of the commons. >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 11:49 PM doc hawk via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >> > >> > Kevin kayaked, >> > >Look what happened to Open Office. It died because no one wanted to >> work >> > on it. >> > >> > ??? >> > >> > The bulk of the developers bolted and formed LibreOffice from the OO >> > codebase. It?s alive and well--I just downloaded a new version this >> > morning. >> > >> > It isn?t that OO faded or died, but that no-one liked the new overlords >> > when Oracle acquired Sun. The project itself is thriving under the new >> > name. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > use-livecode mailing list >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> > subscription preferences: >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Sep 2 16:28:39 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 21:28:39 +0100 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: References: <6D749A76-CD56-49E8-B98E-133D60EEFF44@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not even close it would seem. For $300 you will get Win/Mac/Lin (like we used to). But now we'll have to pay $300 for each with some weird-as discount applied (maybe). It's very out of whack. I like the model used by xojo that is based on Desktop, Web, iOS and Android. It makes much more sense. But I'm guessing they are splitting up the desktops because of the chances that MOST developers only develop for one platform (most likely Windows) and coding the engine for these other platforms has to be done somewhat differently to each other so they want to reclaim those costs. But surely those other platforms MUST be coded anyway to maintain a 'cross-platform' environment. So surely the cost 'should' be absorbed by all users rather than the few who deploy to Mac/Lin. Only my opinion verbalised. Still only based on raw info at the moment. On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 at 20:07, Mike Kerner via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I'd also be curious how the new model compares to xojo > > -- Pi Digital From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 16:48:08 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 21:48:08 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15B9DB60-31E7-41C9-B66B-68D9340FA981@gmail.com> HI Kee, You do know the schools license gives you complete access to all 7 platforms and permanent standalones for $25 a seat per year and the apps are non-expiring? > On Sep 2, 2021, at 6:15 PM, Kee Nethery via use-livecode wrote: > > I like the idea of a free version that does not compile into an app. Lets schools teach LiveCode and lets people learn it before deciding to buy it. > > My two cents > > Kee Nethery > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 17:23:38 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 22:23:38 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_I=E2=80=99m_a_software_engineer=2C_not_a_platform?= =?utf-8?Q?_engineer?= In-Reply-To: <74E63BAE-53F0-42C1-B846-6CDAFFE756CB@pidigital.co.uk> References: <74E63BAE-53F0-42C1-B846-6CDAFFE756CB@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Sean, based on personal experience I would say, ?Keep the faith?. I?m sure that you and Heather can come to a solution that fits your business profile. I don?t think they want to lose anyone in this transition, and are willing to ?find a solution? that will work for you. All the best, Mark > On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:06 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > > I don?t know how this will play out for me. It?s all a bit skewed and too fresh in my mental inbox at the moment to fully comprehend. Time will tell. I?m still waiting to hear from Heather what they are offering for when my next sub ends. I?m hoping they take all of the above into account. From iphonelagi at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 17:33:01 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 22:33:01 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the way so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, and by the time they answer you get cheesed off and remove the program. The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months (whichever comes first). This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting for 6 months but it times out anyway. Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so it will last 30 days. This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without rushing. The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those who want to give it a good try. You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like treacle. If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in less than 30 minutes. You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" to schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid idea of the lot so far) Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, stupid and not workable suggestions?. Lagi On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a > longer trial a shot at some point. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > True, true. > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I would > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. > > Ralph DiMola > IT Director > Evergreen Information Services > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > download that. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen > via use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Hi there > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Sep 2 17:59:17 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:59:17 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Lagi, I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 points needing to be addressed. Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the platform? On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the > way > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > and by the time they answer > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months > (whichever comes first). > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so > it will last 30 days. > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without > rushing. > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those > who want to give it a good try. > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > treacle. > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in less > than 30 minutes. > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" to > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid idea > of the lot so far) > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > Lagi > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > use-livecode" > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > True, true. > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > would > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. > > > > Ralph DiMola > > IT Director > > Evergreen Information Services > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > To: How to use LiveCode > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > download that. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen > > via use-livecode" > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Hi there > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > KIndest Regards Lagi > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From tom at makeshyft.com Thu Sep 2 17:59:56 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:59:56 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: I literally begged. LOL On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:59 PM Tom Glod wrote: > Lagi, > > I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 > points needing to be addressed. > > Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. > > Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the > platform? > > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install >> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the >> way >> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. >> >> You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, >> and by the time they answer >> you get cheesed off and remove the program. >> >> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months >> (whichever comes first). >> >> This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting >> for 6 months but it times out anyway. >> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so >> it will last 30 days. >> >> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without >> rushing. >> >> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal >> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those >> who want to give it a good try. >> >> You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK >> button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a >> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). >> >> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on >> a >> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like >> treacle. >> >> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in >> less >> than 30 minutes. >> >> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" to >> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. >> >> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and >> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a >> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid >> idea >> of the lot so far) >> >> >> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, >> stupid and not workable suggestions?. >> >> Lagi >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >> > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give >> a >> > longer trial a shot at some point. >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > >> > Kevin >> > >> > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself >> > >> > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via >> > use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> > >> > True, true. >> > >> > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around >> > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a >> > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other >> > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I >> would >> > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. >> > >> > Ralph DiMola >> > IT Director >> > Evergreen Information Services >> > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] >> On >> > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode >> > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM >> > To: How to use LiveCode >> > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen >> > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition >> > >> > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free >> > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just >> > download that. >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > >> > Kevin >> > >> > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself >> > >> > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen >> > via use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> > >> > Hi there >> > >> > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community >> Edition >> > >> > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. >> > >> > Michael >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > use-livecode mailing list >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> > subscription preferences: >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > use-livecode mailing list >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> > subscription preferences: >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > use-livecode mailing list >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> > subscription preferences: >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > use-livecode mailing list >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> > subscription preferences: >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > >> >> >> -- >> KIndest Regards Lagi >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > Tom Glod > Founder & Developer > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > Mobile:647.562.9411 > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From iphonelagi at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 18:20:34 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 23:20:34 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Sorry it's worse than I thought.It's 10th generation with 4 cores and 8 logical processors. Appleworks was blazingly fast on my 64K 1Mhz Apple 2 and so was Borland Turbo Pascal on my Microsoft Z80 card on said machine - software is going backwards speed wise. Lagi On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 23:00, Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Lagi, > > I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 > points needing to be addressed. > > Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. > > Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the > platform? > > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the > > way > > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > > and by the time they answer > > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months > > (whichever comes first). > > > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting > > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice > so > > it will last 30 days. > > > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without > > rushing. > > > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those > > who want to give it a good try. > > > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK > > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running > on a > > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > > treacle. > > > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in > less > > than 30 minutes. > > > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" > to > > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and > > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid > idea > > of the lot so far) > > > > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > > > Lagi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well > give a > > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > > use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > True, true. > > > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack > around > > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > > would > > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an > option. > > > > > > Ralph DiMola > > > IT Director > > > Evergreen Information Services > > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] > On > > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > > download that. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael > Kristensen > > > via use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi there > > > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community > Edition > > > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > KIndest Regards Lagi > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > Tom Glod > Founder & Developer > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > Mobile:647.562.9411 > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From iphonelagi at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 18:28:08 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 23:28:08 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Tom, I have mentioned the IDE problem how many times in the last 3 years and nothing has come of it. They have been fixated on getting bought out by Apple or Claris (LCFM is on the Filemaker store) but I bet Apple has been stringing them along and learning their IP to bring out their own to compete with flutter. because of Flutter. I could be totally wrong but apple and microsoft have done it more than once https://www.silicon.co.uk/e-regulation/stealing-health-apple-watch-328647 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FSm61dM_nM https://www.sriplaw.com/can-apple-steal-my-iphone-app-ideas-and-get-away-with-it/ Lagi On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 23:01, Tom Glod via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I literally begged. LOL > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:59 PM Tom Glod wrote: > > > Lagi, > > > > I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 > > points needing to be addressed. > > > > Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. > > > > Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the > > platform? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > >> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the > >> way > >> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > >> > >> You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > >> and by the time they answer > >> you get cheesed off and remove the program. > >> > >> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 > months > >> (whichever comes first). > >> > >> This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without > exiting > >> for 6 months but it times out anyway. > >> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice > so > >> it will last 30 days. > >> > >> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it > without > >> rushing. > >> > >> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > >> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those > >> who want to give it a good try. > >> > >> You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an > OK > >> button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > >> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > >> > >> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running > on > >> a > >> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > >> treacle. > >> > >> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in > >> less > >> than 30 minutes. > >> > >> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" > to > >> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > >> > >> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - > and > >> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > >> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid > >> idea > >> of the lot so far) > >> > >> > >> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > >> stupid and not workable suggestions?. > >> > >> Lagi > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well > give > >> a > >> > longer trial a shot at some point. > >> > > >> > Kind regards, > >> > > >> > Kevin > >> > > >> > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > >> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > >> > > >> > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > >> > use-livecode" >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > True, true. > >> > > >> > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack > around > >> > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > >> > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > >> > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > >> would > >> > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an > option. > >> > > >> > Ralph DiMola > >> > IT Director > >> > Evergreen Information Services > >> > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] > >> On > >> > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > >> > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > >> > To: How to use LiveCode > >> > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > >> > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > >> > > >> > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > >> > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > >> > download that. > >> > > >> > Kind regards, > >> > > >> > Kevin > >> > > >> > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > >> > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > >> > > >> > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael > Kristensen > >> > via use-livecode" >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi there > >> > > >> > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community > >> Edition > >> > > >> > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > >> > > >> > Michael > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > use-livecode mailing list > >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage > your > >> > subscription preferences: > >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > use-livecode mailing list > >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> > subscription preferences: > >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > use-livecode mailing list > >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> > subscription preferences: > >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > use-livecode mailing list > >> > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> > subscription preferences: > >> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> KIndest Regards Lagi > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > > > -- > > Tom Glod > > Founder & Developer > > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > > Mobile:647.562.9411 > > > > > -- > Tom Glod > Founder & Developer > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > Mobile:647.562.9411 > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Thu Sep 2 18:53:48 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 22:53:48 +0000 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> Message-ID: <39BC6169-5B38-4396-BA99-FCB674668FC2@iotecdigital.com> I am going to say no, because you still have to traverse the file once to get it into sqLite, then do the sort, then write out the file when done. I might be mistaken, the subsequent SQL sort may make up for lost time. Using a memory SQL really shines when you need to make multiple passes at the data using different queries. One pass may not impress you much. For instance, I have a File Management module built into my application. A file can belong to a customer, and also to a site, and also to a device. Like so: custid siteid deviceid filepath 123 disk/folder/file1 456 098 disk/folder/file2 789 765 432 disk/folder/file3 Note all have a custid, some have a siteid as well, and some also have a deviceid. So rather than query mySQL for the files for each site or device as I select them, I instead, upon selecting a customer, query mySQL for ALL the file records for that customer, (which of course contain the file records for all the sites and devices), then store that in a memory database. Then when a different site or device belonging to that customer is selected, I query the memory database for those belonging to that site, or that device in those modules respectively. The performance enhancement is significant. Another way I apply this is to get the objects on a card passing a list of properties I'm interested in, then store the data in a memory database. I can then query for objects with certain properties without having to iterate through all the objects on a card in a repeat loop. For instance, the farthest left, top, right and bottom object whose visible is true in 4 memory db queries, giving me the total rect of all the visible objects without grouping/ungrouping and the hell that can ensue. Bob S > On Sep 2, 2021, at 11:22 , Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > > Whilst waiting for a fix, would a temporary solution be to use sqlite to > create an in-memory database and let sqlite do the sorting for you? > > Regards, Bernard. > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 8:23 PM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Thanks to Mark Waddingham's advice about using a buffer var when >> accumulating >> a large text variabel in stages, I've now got a script that took 8 hours >> under >> LC9, and (8 minutes under LC6) down by stages to just under 1 hour under >> LC9. >> >> However I have some remaining issues not amenable to this approach; of >> which >> the most significant relates to the sort command. >> >> In all cases it seems to take much longer under LC9 than it did under LC6; >> although the factor is quite variable. The most dramatic is one instance, >> in >> which this statement: >> >> sort lines of tNewTable by item iSortCol of each >> >> takes 35 minutes to execute. `tNewTable` is a variable consisting of some >> 223,000 lines of text; approx 70MB. The exact same statement with the same >> data on the same computer in LC6 takes just 1 second. >> >> Has anyone else noticed something of this sort? As I said, the effect >> varies: >> e.g. 54 seconds versus 1 second; 22 seconds versus 1 second. So it may not >> be >> so noticeable in all cases. >> >> TIA, >> >> Ben >> From bdrunrev at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 19:16:36 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 00:16:36 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: >> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like treacle. << As I don't recognize this experience can you put a video of your experience on the cloud? I don't run on hardware anything like as beefy as you have. The only machine I've got where LC is slow is one where Windows itself is really slow (a 4yo laptop). On my two Apple machines (M1 and Intel, the latter is 5yo) it is not "like treacle", neither is it slow on my i5 Windows machine. It's a bit hard for LC Ltd to identify and fix something if it's only found in some odd cases. Regards, Bernard On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the > way > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > and by the time they answer > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months > (whichever comes first). > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so > it will last 30 days. > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without > rushing. > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those > who want to give it a good try. > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > treacle. > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in less > than 30 minutes. > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" to > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid idea > of the lot so far) > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > Lagi > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > use-livecode" > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > True, true. > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > would > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. > > > > Ralph DiMola > > IT Director > > Evergreen Information Services > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > To: How to use LiveCode > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > download that. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen > > via use-livecode" > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Hi there > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > KIndest Regards Lagi > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bogdanoff at me.com Thu Sep 2 19:55:55 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:55:55 -0400 Subject: Put URL command Message-ID: <535D7DC6-9442-492E-A4AA-BFB328961DC3@me.com> Is this supposed to work? I get a script error: put URL "binfile:" & sourceURL into URL "binfile:" & destinationURL Peter Bogdanoff From bogdanoff at me.com Thu Sep 2 19:59:38 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:59:38 -0400 Subject: Put URL command In-Reply-To: <535D7DC6-9442-492E-A4AA-BFB328961DC3@me.com> References: <535D7DC6-9442-492E-A4AA-BFB328961DC3@me.com> Message-ID: <18F50873-E2F8-4593-92B0-F1FF7232B683@me.com> Actually, a compilation error. How is the command supposed to be structured when using a var for the URL? > On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:55 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > Is this supposed to work? I get a script error: > > put URL "binfile:" & sourceURL into URL "binfile:" & destinationURL > > > > Peter Bogdanoff > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 2 20:00:23 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 01:00:23 +0100 Subject: Put URL command In-Reply-To: <535D7DC6-9442-492E-A4AA-BFB328961DC3@me.com> References: <535D7DC6-9442-492E-A4AA-BFB328961DC3@me.com> Message-ID: try ???????? put URL "binfile:" & sourceURL into URL ("binfile:" & destinationURL) or, if you're cautious like me, ???????? put URL ("binfile:" & sourceURL) into URL ("binfile:" & destinationURL) Alex On 03/09/2021 00:55, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > put URL "binfile:" & sourceURL into URL "binfile:" & destinationURL From ahsoftware at sonic.net Thu Sep 2 20:07:21 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:07:21 -0700 Subject: Put URL command In-Reply-To: References: <535D7DC6-9442-492E-A4AA-BFB328961DC3@me.com> Message-ID: On 9/2/21 5:00 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: put URL ("binfile:" & sourceURL) into URL ("binfile:" & destinationURL) I always use parentheses when specifying URLs. It doesn't necessarily keep me out of trouble, but at least then it's trouble of my own making. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From bogdanoff at me.com Thu Sep 2 20:17:07 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 20:17:07 -0400 Subject: Put URL command In-Reply-To: References: <535D7DC6-9442-492E-A4AA-BFB328961DC3@me.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alex! > On Sep 2, 2021, at 8:00 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > try > > put URL "binfile:" & sourceURL into URL ("binfile:" & destinationURL) > > or, if you're cautious like me, > > put URL ("binfile:" & sourceURL) into URL ("binfile:" & destinationURL) > Alex > > On 03/09/2021 00:55, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > >> put URL "binfile:" & sourceURL into URL "binfile:" & destinationURL > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 2 20:54:15 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 01:54:15 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <685301bf-0461-c103-38a4-cf91cc9c967d@tweedly.net> On 02/09/2021 13:01, David Bovill via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks for the question Alex, I?m wrestling with the same issues - but so far got no responses from encoding gurus here :) > > This is my understanding: > > 1) Yes its recommended to textEncode text that comes from outside into Livecode?s internal native format (which is utf16).??Livecode handles everything internally ?transparently? from then on - which I guess means all usual language and control operations expect this utf16 internal format. My guess is this is why a few things have got slower as compared with early versions of Livecode. Hi David, thanks for the suggestion. But I think you have (maybe) made the same mistake I made. I blame it on the dictionary entry being truncated in one place and not as clear as it could be in others. The correct part to focus on is > that you explicitly*textEncode* any text you send outside LiveCode and > textDecode all text received into LiveCode > i.e. you *decode* on the way in to Livecode (confirmed by the examples in the dictionary, not by the text description). So the code I was using, sent earlier? in reply to Mark W's email said (something like): ? put URL ("file:" & specialFolderPath("home") & "/warpeace.txt") into tText ? ... ? put quote&"!?,.:;[]{}()?$?%^&???<>=+-??????#???*???\/" into tList ? ... ?? put textencode(pStr, "UTF8") into pStr i.e.I encoded it on the way in. It should have been ?? put textDecode(pStr, "UTF8") into pStr With that changed, my tiny test script works properly (and quickly). I haven't yet put this back into my actual app script - it's way past my bedtime :-), but I now expect it will be OK. Mark - I hope this helps - and hopefully you can conclude there's no error, just some dictionary entries to improve. If (when) I confirm this in my actual app, I'll create a bugreport for the dictionary. Alex. From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 2 20:58:00 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 01:58:00 +0100 Subject: Put URL command In-Reply-To: References: <535D7DC6-9442-492E-A4AA-BFB328961DC3@me.com> Message-ID: <18a78e5e-6b01-4a6b-05f9-4c241a826e5e@tweedly.net> I said : >> try >> >> put URL "binfile:" & sourceURL into URL ("binfile:" & destinationURL) No. Don't. I was wrong. That avoids the error message, but gets the wrong result. It gives you the content of the URL "binfile:" (i.e. empty) plus the value of the variable sourceURL >> or, if you're cautious like me, >> >> put URL ("binfile:" & sourceURL) into URL ("binfile:" & destinationURL) Yes. Do it this way. Use parens for URLs Alex. From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Sep 2 22:05:05 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 03:05:05 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Hi Lagi, I have the LC IDE running on a remote Windows Server with 1 core (2Ghz) and 2GB ram. It struggles at times but is still usable (truly amazingly). Otherwise, I run it on Windows through Parallels Desktop with VM 8 cores and 8GB on an 8core 32GB Macbook Pro. Saving a stack takes 15 times longer in Win compared to the same machine in macOS. Other than the slight lag and bugginess of the script editor this is the only slowness I see. Unicode slows down some procedures but that is not limited to the IDE. I hope you can work out what is slowing it down to treacle speeds for you. It sounds a bit odd to me. On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 00:16, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > treacle. > << > > As I don't recognize this experience can you put a video of your experience > on the cloud? I don't run on hardware anything like as beefy as you have. > The only machine I've got where LC is slow is one where Windows itself is > really slow (a 4yo laptop). On my two Apple machines (M1 and Intel, the > latter is 5yo) it is not "like treacle", neither is it slow on my i5 > Windows machine. > > It's a bit hard for LC Ltd to identify and fix something if it's only found > in some odd cases. > > Regards, Bernard > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the > > way > > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > > and by the time they answer > > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months > > (whichever comes first). > > > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting > > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice > so > > it will last 30 days. > > > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without > > rushing. > > > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those > > who want to give it a good try. > > > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK > > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running > on a > > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > > treacle. > > > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in > less > > than 30 minutes. > > > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" > to > > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and > > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid > idea > > of the lot so far) > > > > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > > > Lagi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well > give a > > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > > use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > True, true. > > > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack > around > > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > > would > > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an > option. > > > > > > Ralph DiMola > > > IT Director > > > Evergreen Information Services > > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] > On > > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > > download that. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael > Kristensen > > > via use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi there > > > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community > Edition > > > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > KIndest Regards Lagi > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Thu Sep 2 22:55:57 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 21:55:57 -0500 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: <685301bf-0461-c103-38a4-cf91cc9c967d@tweedly.net> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <685301bf-0461-c103-38a4-cf91cc9c967d@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <17ba9959248.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> I made the same mistake at first. The concepts felt backward to me, it seemed like we should encode text into the format we were aiming for. So If I wanted UTF16 I should encode it that way. If I wanted UTF8 for outbound text I should decode the UTF16 that LC uses. When the receiving server scripts went haywire I finally figured it out, but not before the Rails programmer wrote code to undo the gibberish I was sending. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 2, 2021 7:55:45 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > i.e.I encoded it on the way in. > > It should have been > > put textDecode(pStr, "UTF8") into pStr > > With that changed, my tiny test script works properly From brahma at hindu.org Thu Sep 2 23:38:35 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 03:38:35 +0000 Subject: Fix The Browser! In-Reply-To: References: <17b6b0fb260.2815.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: 9.6.4 They fixed the browser in iOS! Where do we get the release notes? The ?break through? is not even mentioned? But, we look for to putting the books on line. On 8/30/21, 5:05 AM, "use-livecode" wrote: Well there is with mobileControlCreate. But it does NOT solve the bugs in iOS. In Android all the following works fine. But in iOS it fails for: allowUserInteraction allowInteraction browserDocumentLoadBegin pUrl browserDocumentLoadComplete pUrl browserDocumentLoadFailed pUrl browserFrameDocumentLoadBegin pUrl I hope we fix this asap! Svasti Astu ? Be Well Brahmanathaswami Get SivaSiva.app ? It free! https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/sivasiva On 8/21/21, 1:34 PM, "use-livecode" > wrote: Weren't these replaced with mobileControlCreate? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On August 21, 2021 4:55:39 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode > wrote: > Not only that, its marked as too old to be used log into any of Google's > sites, and many others I am sure. > I would consider upgrading/fixing the CEF as a high priority task. > Please ....Please ..... just do it. > Its almost 4 years old. > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 10:24 PM Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via > use-livecode > wrote: > >> Aloha Panagiotis Merakos >> >> Browers Bug: >> >> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23267 >> >> What are we doing? This is ?really serious? . The API Dictionery does not >> work for iOS >> >> allowUserInteraction property set the allowUserInteraction of widget to >> allowInteraction >> browserDocumentLoadBegin message browserDocumentLoadBegin pUrl >> browserDocumentLoadComplete message browserDocumentLoadComplete >> pUrl >> browserDocumentLoadFailed message browserDocumentLoadFailed pUrl, >> pError >> browserFrameDocumentLoadBegin message browserFrameDocumentLoadBegin >> pUrl >> >> >> Svasti Astu ? Be Well >> Brahmanathaswami >> >> Get SivaSiva.app ? It free! >> https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/sivasiva >> >> _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ludovic.thebault at laposte.net Fri Sep 3 04:53:16 2021 From: ludovic.thebault at laposte.net (Ludovic THEBAULT) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 10:53:16 +0200 Subject: Random crash when building standalone Message-ID: Hello, When I build a Windows or macOS standalone, I sometimes have several alerts that concern the "livecode's stacks" ("answer dialog", "print chooser" ...) that are saved in the standalone (but I don't want them to be!) and that conflict with the original stacks. And rarely it ends with a livecode crash. These "livecode stack's" are also added as substacks in my stacks... This seems to be related to "old stacks". I can't find any bug report about this but maybe I didn't look hard enough Do you have any ideas to correct this problem ? Thanks in advance ! Ludovic From dvglasgow at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 06:07:56 2021 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:07:56 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Following this with interest, but also a little confusion. I completely fell into the trap of assuming you encode outgoing and decode incoming. Alex states that put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText speeds replace up, but David B says LC internal format is UTF16. Doesn?t the 8 vs 16 difference matter? Or matters less than other encodings? Cheers David Glasgow > On 2 Sep 2021, at 1:01 pm, David Bovill via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks for the question Alex, I?m wrestling with the same issues - but so far got no responses from encoding gurus here :) > > This is my understanding: > > 1) Yes its recommended to textEncode text that comes from outside into Livecode?s internal native format (which is utf16). Livecode handles everything internally ?transparently? from then on - which I guess means all usual language and control operations expect this utf16 internal format. My guess is this is why a few things have got slower as compared with early versions of Livecode. > 2) Without doing textEncode the engine tries to guess the encoding (duck-typing?) and does this in a platform specific way? Again exactly what is going on there is a bit opaque to me, but the take-home message is that this is slower and less robust. So yes -losing nothing (assuming the original file is utf8, and yes its the best alternative. > > I thing the hard thing to find out is exactly what type of encoding some files are - would be great if there was a duck-typing service where we could paste text or upload files and it would say - hey this looks like utf8 - but that?s asking too much > > ? Schedule a call with me > On 2 Sep 2021, 12:12 +0100, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode , wrote: >> Sorry to drag us off the interesting topic of licensing :-) into some >> Livecode question. >> >> I know little or nothing about Unicode, text encodings, etc. - so my >> question is indeed naive. >> >> I have a text file (War & Peace from Project Gutenberg), about 3.4Mb. >> The Mac describes it simply as "Plain text". >> >> When I read that into a variable, and then do >> replace tChar by SPACE in tWholeText >> it takes between 1000 and 4000 millisecs - versus the 8-10 msecs I had >> expected from other samples. >> >> If I put in >> put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText >> before the replace then it does indeed tae 8-10 msecs. >> >> Q1. What (if anything) am I losing by doing that ? >> >> Q2. Is this the best alternative ? >> >> Additional info - I just discovered that according to 'more' command >> line, the file start with : >> >> The Project .... >> >> if that is useful. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Alex. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Fri Sep 3 08:38:34 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:38:34 +0100 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <92653c1d-3bae-7777-62c5-69d0d0fd45f5@tweedly.net> On 03/09/2021 11:07, David V Glasgow via use-livecode wrote: > Alex states that put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText speeds replace up, but David B says LC internal format is UTF16. Doesn?t the 8 vs 16 difference matter? Or matters less than other encodings? I would regard that timing comparison with much suspicion. I was textEncoding() it inappropriately - I had just read it in from a file, so I *should* have been textDecoding() it. Therefore it is unclear whether the times I was seeing then are meaningful. Alex. From e.beugelaar at me.com Fri Sep 3 09:39:54 2021 From: e.beugelaar at me.com (e.beugelaar at me.com) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:39:54 +0000 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: About this I can say it is really true. I am supporting LiveCode from 2012 and never had the time to program a single word in it... but I loved the filosophy. I only did a review for Packt Publishing. There is hope!!! Blame me not to write any code till yet ;-) but the people behind LiveCode are honest, great, intelligent and always willing to help you out. So hive it a try and just call the HQ, Heather or Kelvin will sort it out if u hv license or financial problems to obtain a new license offer. Nice weekend to you all. Met vriendelijke groet / kind regards Erik Beugelaar ________________________________ From: use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 5:36:28 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: J. Landman Gay Subject: Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to contact support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone. It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, but they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please do write to Heather. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert >> Plan subscription expires. > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been > ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. > A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous > community for many years. > > Neville Smythe > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From e.beugelaar at me.com Fri Sep 3 09:42:05 2021 From: e.beugelaar at me.com (e.beugelaar at me.com) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:42:05 +0000 Subject: Bye, and thanks for the fish In-Reply-To: References: <447198AB-DA41-44DD-ADDA-D3A11DB5FAAD@optusnet.com.au> <17ba4944e60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Excuses for my typos. Kevin ofcourse. Met vriendelijke groet, Erik Beugelaar ________________________________ From: e.beugelaar at me.com Sent: Friday, September 3, 2021 3:39:54 PM To: How to use LiveCode Subject: Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish About this I can say it is really true. I am supporting LiveCode from 2012 and never had the time to program a single word in it... but I loved the filosophy. I only did a review for Packt Publishing. There is hope!!! Blame me not to write any code till yet ;-) but the people behind LiveCode are honest, great, intelligent and always willing to help you out. So hive it a try and just call the HQ, Heather or Kelvin will sort it out if u hv license or financial problems to obtain a new license offer. Nice weekend to you all. Met vriendelijke groet / kind regards Erik Beugelaar ________________________________ From: use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 5:36:28 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: J. Landman Gay Subject: Re: Bye, and thanks for the fish This situation is the kind of thing that Kevin encourages you to contact support about. He's said he doesn't want to lose anyone. It's true that open source has made things difficult for the company, but they also value the folks who have stood by them all this time. Please do write to Heather. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 1, 2021 7:54:16 PM Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: >> On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:36 pm, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> i am not sure, if everyone is aware of it, but standalones that were >> created with the Starter Plan license will expire as soon as the Startert >> Plan subscription expires. > > Not even Apple is that rapacious. > > I used to have a commercial licence back when I was selling stuff (although > the economics of software never made sense). Since retiring I have been > ?freeloading" with the Community edition as a hobbyist, my only LC uses > being for personal use, and maintaining admin and operating software I > wrote for a not-for-profit sporting organisation, and occasionally > contributing bug reports. I can well understand the need for LC to move to > a profitable basis, and I would be happy buy a plan if it made sense for > our use, but there is no way my NFP association can afford US$1000 every > year - or even one year (we would use 3 platforms, and not even the Server > is thrown in with the desktop platforms). And a Starter Kit that means the > app would stop working when I pass on (I have been around since Hypercard > day 1) is an insult. Seems to me the hobbyist use of LC has come to an end. > A great pity, but I guess times move on. > > I have greatly enjoyed being part of this (mostly) friendly and generous > community for many years. > > Neville Smythe > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr_mc at cogapp.com Fri Sep 3 09:47:11 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 13:47:11 -0000 Subject: Text encoding. In-Reply-To: <17ba9959248.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <685301bf-0461-c103-38a4-cf91cc9c967d@tweedly.net> <17ba9959248.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <712dcb17-6b34-809a-3ae5-c3a6976b324e@cogapp.com> I always have to double check this as well. I think the point is that LC knows what its internal format is, but doesn't know what the source format is. So you always have to specify the 'external' format, but never the internal one. With that in mind, it feels (at least in my language instincts) that if you're changing it out of the specified format, that's decoding; and vice versa. You have have to decode the text from UTF8 (or whatever) into the internal format; and encode it from the internal format into UTF8 (or whatever). Ben On 03/09/2021 03:55, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > I made the same mistake at first. The concepts felt backward to me, it seemed > like we should encode text into the format we were aiming for. So If I wanted > UTF16 I should encode it that way. If I wanted UTF8 for outbound text I should > decode the UTF16 that LC uses. > > When the receiving server scripts went haywire I finally figured it out, but > not before the Rails programmer wrote code to undo the gibberish I was sending. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 2, 2021 7:55:45 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> i.e.I encoded it on the way in. >> >> It should have been >> >> ?? put textDecode(pStr, "UTF8") into pStr >> >> With that changed, my tiny test script works properly > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr_mc at cogapp.com Fri Sep 3 09:57:20 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 13:57:20 -0000 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't occur to me that it was just speed. I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to be something platform specific. Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7. Ben On 03/09/2021 03:05, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > Hi Lagi, > I have the LC IDE running on a remote Windows Server with 1 core (2Ghz) and > 2GB ram. It struggles at times but is still usable (truly amazingly). > Otherwise, I run it on Windows through Parallels Desktop with VM 8 cores > and 8GB on an 8core 32GB Macbook Pro. Saving a stack takes 15 times longer > in Win compared to the same machine in macOS. Other than the slight lag and > bugginess of the script editor this is the only slowness I see. Unicode > slows down some procedures but that is not limited to the IDE. > > I hope you can work out what is slowing it down to treacle speeds for you. > It sounds a bit odd to me. > > On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 00:16, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>> >> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a >> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like >> treacle. >> << >> >> As I don't recognize this experience can you put a video of your experience >> on the cloud? I don't run on hardware anything like as beefy as you have. >> The only machine I've got where LC is slow is one where Windows itself is >> really slow (a 4yo laptop). On my two Apple machines (M1 and Intel, the >> latter is 5yo) it is not "like treacle", neither is it slow on my i5 >> Windows machine. >> >> It's a bit hard for LC Ltd to identify and fix something if it's only found >> in some odd cases. >> >> Regards, Bernard >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install >>> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the >>> way >>> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. >>> >>> You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, >>> and by the time they answer >>> you get cheesed off and remove the program. >>> >>> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months >>> (whichever comes first). >>> >>> This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting >>> for 6 months but it times out anyway. >>> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice >> so >>> it will last 30 days. >>> >>> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without >>> rushing. >>> >>> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal >>> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those >>> who want to give it a good try. >>> >>> You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK >>> button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a >>> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). >>> >>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running >> on a >>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like >>> treacle. >>> >>> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in >> less >>> than 30 minutes. >>> >>> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" >> to >>> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. >>> >>> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and >>> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a >>> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid >> idea >>> of the lot so far) >>> >>> >>> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, >>> stupid and not workable suggestions?. >>> >>> Lagi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well >> give a >>>> longer trial a shot at some point. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself >>>> >>>> ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via >>>> use-livecode" >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> True, true. >>>> >>>> There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack >> around >>>> but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a >>>> programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other >>>> supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I >>> would >>>> not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an >> option. >>>> >>>> Ralph DiMola >>>> IT Director >>>> Evergreen Information Services >>>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] >> On >>>> Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM >>>> To: How to use LiveCode >>>> Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen >>>> Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition >>>> >>>> Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free >>>> non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just >>>> download that. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself >>>> >>>> ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael >> Kristensen >>>> via use-livecode" >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi there >>>> >>>> I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community >> Edition >>>> >>>> That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> KIndest Regards Lagi >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From kevin at livecode.com Fri Sep 3 10:01:32 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 15:01:32 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: There are some good suggestions here around the Lagi, thank you. We will certainly be exploring ways to make that experience just right in the coming days. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 22:33, "use-livecode on behalf of Lagi Pittas via use-livecode" wrote: Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the way so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, and by the time they answer you get cheesed off and remove the program. The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months (whichever comes first). This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting for 6 months but it times out anyway. Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so it will last 30 days. This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without rushing. The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those who want to give it a good try. You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like treacle. If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in less than 30 minutes. You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" to schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid idea of the lot so far) Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, stupid and not workable suggestions?. Lagi On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a > longer trial a shot at some point. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > True, true. > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I would > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. > > Ralph DiMola > IT Director > Evergreen Information Services > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > download that. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen > via use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Hi there > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Fri Sep 3 10:07:00 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 15:07:00 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: What I liked about your email to me Tom was that it was extremely specific. You had just a handful of issues you considered absolutely key and offered to Zoom to show that to me. I look forward to scheduling that once I finish getting unburried __ Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 02/09/2021, 22:59, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" wrote: Lagi, I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 points needing to be addressed. Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the platform? On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the > way > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > and by the time they answer > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months > (whichever comes first). > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so > it will last 30 days. > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without > rushing. > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those > who want to give it a good try. > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > treacle. > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in less > than 30 minutes. > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" to > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid idea > of the lot so far) > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > Lagi > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > use-livecode" > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > True, true. > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > would > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. > > > > Ralph DiMola > > IT Director > > Evergreen Information Services > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > To: How to use LiveCode > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > download that. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen > > via use-livecode" > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Hi there > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > KIndest Regards Lagi > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr_mc at cogapp.com Fri Sep 3 13:20:18 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:20:18 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <39BC6169-5B38-4396-BA99-FCB674668FC2@iotecdigital.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <39BC6169-5B38-4396-BA99-FCB674668FC2@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: I'm very much hoping that Mark W might magically fix this in 9.6.5. But in the meantime FWIW, the place where this was really hurting (in a script that took 8 minutes under LC6, was taking 8 hours under LC9, but I've gradually tamed it down to under an hour by buffering the large accumulations) was a single sort command, on 70 MB of data in approx 223,000 lines. I've replaced this line: sort lines of tNewTable by item iSortCol of each which took 1 second on Mac, 2063 seconds (i.e. 34 minutes) on Windows, with a call to this command command sortLinesByTabbedColumn @tTable, iSortCol local aTable, tSortTable, iARcounter, tARbuffer, tRow, k -- load table into an array for fast access by line number put tTable into aTable split aTable using return -- compile index of just the column to sort on, and line number set the itemDelimiter to tab repeat for each key k in aTable get (item iSortCol of aTable[k]) && k appendRow it, iARcounter, tARbuffer, tSortTable end repeat put tARbuffer after tSortTable -- sort it sort lines of tSortTable -- rebuild table out of array, in sorted order put empty into tARbuffer put empty into tTable repeat for each line tRow in tSortTable put last word of tRow into k appendRow aTable[k], iARcounter, tARbuffer, tTable end repeat put tARbuffer after tTable end sortLinesByTabbedColumn which takes 25 seconds on Windows (to my surprise, most of that time was in the final 'rebuild' loop). On 02/09/2021 23:53, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > I am going to say no, because you still have to traverse the file once to get it into sqLite, then do the sort, then write out the file when done. I might be mistaken, the subsequent SQL sort may make up for lost time. Using a memory SQL really shines when you need to make multiple passes at the data using different queries. One pass may not impress you much. > > For instance, I have a File Management module built into my application. A file can belong to a customer, and also to a site, and also to a device. Like so: > > custid siteid deviceid filepath > 123 disk/folder/file1 > 456 098 disk/folder/file2 > 789 765 432 disk/folder/file3 > > Note all have a custid, some have a siteid as well, and some also have a deviceid. > > So rather than query mySQL for the files for each site or device as I select them, I instead, upon selecting a customer, query mySQL for ALL the file records for that customer, (which of course contain the file records for all the sites and devices), then store that in a memory database. Then when a different site or device belonging to that customer is selected, I query the memory database for those belonging to that site, or that device in those modules respectively. > > The performance enhancement is significant. > > Another way I apply this is to get the objects on a card passing a list of properties I'm interested in, then store the data in a memory database. I can then query for objects with certain properties without having to iterate through all the objects on a card in a repeat loop. For instance, the farthest left, top, right and bottom object whose visible is true in 4 memory db queries, giving me the total rect of all the visible objects without grouping/ungrouping and the hell that can ensue. > > Bob S > > >> On Sep 2, 2021, at 11:22 , Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Whilst waiting for a fix, would a temporary solution be to use sqlite to >> create an in-memory database and let sqlite do the sorting for you? >> >> Regards, Bernard. >> >> On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 8:23 PM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks to Mark Waddingham's advice about using a buffer var when >>> accumulating >>> a large text variabel in stages, I've now got a script that took 8 hours >>> under >>> LC9, and (8 minutes under LC6) down by stages to just under 1 hour under >>> LC9. >>> >>> However I have some remaining issues not amenable to this approach; of >>> which >>> the most significant relates to the sort command. >>> >>> In all cases it seems to take much longer under LC9 than it did under LC6; >>> although the factor is quite variable. The most dramatic is one instance, >>> in >>> which this statement: >>> >>> sort lines of tNewTable by item iSortCol of each >>> >>> takes 35 minutes to execute. `tNewTable` is a variable consisting of some >>> 223,000 lines of text; approx 70MB. The exact same statement with the same >>> data on the same computer in LC6 takes just 1 second. >>> >>> Has anyone else noticed something of this sort? As I said, the effect >>> varies: >>> e.g. 54 seconds versus 1 second; 22 seconds versus 1 second. So it may not >>> be >>> so noticeable in all cases. >>> >>> TIA, >>> >>> Ben >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 3 14:03:59 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:03:59 -0500 Subject: Random crash when building standalone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07435a17-7883-39cc-d023-044794d956d2@hyperactivesw.com> On 9/3/21 3:53 AM, Ludovic THEBAULT via use-livecode wrote: > Hello, > > When I build a Windows or macOS standalone, I sometimes have several alerts that concern the "livecode's stacks" ("answer dialog", "print chooser" ...) that are saved in the standalone (but I don't want them to be!) and that conflict with the original stacks. > > And rarely it ends with a livecode crash. > > These "livecode stack's" are also added as substacks in my stacks... > This seems to be related to "old stacks". > I can't find any bug report about this but maybe I didn't look hard enough I've seen this before with stacks that were originally built with MC, where you had to include ask and answer stacks manually into the mainstack. I've also heard about these inclusions once or twice in LC but I'm not sure what would cause that. From the message box, do: put the substacks of stack "myMainStack" If the ask/answer dialogs are there, then you can delete them: delete stack "answer dialog" of stack "myMainStack" delete stack "ask dialog" of stack "myMainStack" Be sure to include the reference to your mainstack, since otherwise you might delete the one in the IDE. That's no a permanent problem but it won't solve your issue. You might also be able to do the same thing in the project browser, but I usually use the message box. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From m.schonewille at economy-x-talk.com Fri Sep 3 16:11:06 2021 From: m.schonewille at economy-x-talk.com (Drs Mark Schonewille) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:11:06 +0200 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> Message-ID: <85a15a94-dcb6-108b-8a57-266e1e8fff7d@economy-x-talk.com> In one word: DreamCard! :D Mark Schonewille Economy-x-Talk KvK 50277553 VAT NL002099948B21 https://ecxtalk.nl https://www.nt2.nu Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner http://www3.economy-x-talk.com/file.php?node=programming-livecode-for-the-real-beginner Op 2-9-2021 om 15:49 schreef Michael Kristensen via use-livecode: > Hi there > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > Michael > From alex at tweedly.net Fri Sep 3 20:29:24 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 01:29:24 +0100 Subject: Text encoding: summary of results and times. In-Reply-To: <92653c1d-3bae-7777-62c5-69d0d0fd45f5@tweedly.net> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <92653c1d-3bae-7777-62c5-69d0d0fd45f5@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <2632d3b3-e851-96ee-3352-fd8c783f3c74@tweedly.net> I went back and re-did the tests, checking on the results. The file *is* UTF8, so I need to textDecode() it; if I don't, the result are simply wrong, and so the times are irrelevant. 1. Once it has been textDecoded(), i.e. is in internal format, and I run my algorithm it gets the correct results, taking 115.1 seconds. 2. BUT, if just before the algorithm is run, I do a textEncode(tStr, "UTF8") , it gets the correct results (identical to the above), but in only 3.3 seconds. The code, in a zip file containing the test stack, SpellCheck Library, and the 'bible' and "war&peace" sample textfiles, can be downloaded from ??? https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/SpellLib.gz if anyone wants to look at it. Alex. On 03/09/2021 13:38, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > On 03/09/2021 11:07, David V Glasgow via use-livecode wrote: > >> Alex states that put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText >> speeds replace up, but David B says LC internal format is UTF16.? >> Doesn?t the 8 vs 16 difference matter?? Or matters less than other >> encodings? > > I would regard that timing comparison with much suspicion. I was > textEncoding() it inappropriately - I had just read it in from a file, > so I *should* have been textDecoding() it. Therefore it is unclear > whether the times I was seeing then are meaningful. > > Alex. > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Sep 3 21:48:44 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 21:48:44 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Hi Kevin, Thanks for acknowledging that you received it! I will compile a video of the problems, but will happily schedule a zoom and talk about some other things as well. I should have a video compiled within 1 week, since i'll still be using it all week long. Thanks Kevin, Tom On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:07 AM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > What I liked about your email to me Tom was that it was extremely > specific. You had just a handful of issues you considered absolutely key > and offered to Zoom to show that to me. I look forward to scheduling that > once I finish getting unburried __ > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 02/09/2021, 22:59, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Lagi, > > I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 > points needing to be addressed. > > Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. > > Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the > platform? > > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in > the > > way > > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an > extension, > > and by the time they answer > > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 > months > > (whichever comes first). > > > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without > exiting > > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" > twice so > > it will last 30 days. > > > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it > without > > rushing. > > > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be > loyal > > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps > those > > who want to give it a good try. > > > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with > an OK > > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am > running on a > > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs > like > > treacle. > > > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine > in less > > than 30 minutes. > > > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it > away" to > > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost > - and > > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most > stupid idea > > of the lot so far) > > > > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these > cranky, > > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > > > Lagi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well > give a > > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > > use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > True, true. > > > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack > around > > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any > other > > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. > I > > would > > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an > option. > > > > > > Ralph DiMola > > > IT Director > > > Evergreen Information Services > > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: use-livecode [mailto: > use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a > free > > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > > download that. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael > Kristensen > > > via use-livecode" behalf of > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi there > > > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community > Edition > > > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage > your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > KIndest Regards Lagi > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > Tom Glod > Founder & Developer > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > Mobile:647.562.9411 > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From david.bovill at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 10:36:17 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:36:17 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> The clearest example of a free-forever development licence which you pay for when you wish to release your app is obviously Unity 3D. I remember when this project was a small developer community supported by a company and community of keen early adopters. I asked then why Livecode Ltd didn?t adopt a model close to that - sure there are differences between the game market and Livecode?s market but still? So the question here is why not do the same here - keep a free-to-develop ?trial version? without the compilation framework and tools. I?m curious to the reasoning. The cynic in me would say that the assumption is that there are too few developers in this (non-game) market who would need the compilation / stand-alone-builder functions - so while game developers and companies might pay for commercial Unity 3D licenses - that is not true for Livecode developers? I don?t / like / buy that argument - so I would love to here good reasons or not adopting a Unity 3D style licensing model? ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 3 Sep 2021, 15:07 +0100, Kevin Miller via use-livecode , wrote: > What I liked about your email to me Tom was that it was extremely specific. You had just a handful of issues you considered absolutely key and offered to Zoom to show that to me. I look forward to scheduling that once I finish getting unburried __ > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > On 02/09/2021, 22:59, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" wrote: > > Lagi, > > I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 > points needing to be addressed. > > Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. > > Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the > platform? > > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the > > way > > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > > and by the time they answer > > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months > > (whichever comes first). > > > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting > > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice so > > it will last 30 days. > > > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without > > rushing. > > > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those > > who want to give it a good try. > > > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK > > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a > > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > > treacle. > > > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in less > > than 30 minutes. > > > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" to > > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and > > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid idea > > of the lot so far) > > > > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > > > Lagi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well give a > > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > > use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > True, true. > > > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around > > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > > would > > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an option. > > > > > > Ralph DiMola > > > IT Director > > > Evergreen Information Services > > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > > download that. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen > > > via use-livecode" > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi there > > > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > KIndest Regards Lagi > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > Tom Glod > Founder & Developer > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > Mobile:647.562.9411 > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Sat Sep 4 12:48:14 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:48:14 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> Message-ID: David, thats an interesting model to bring up. I wonder how much of this new direction is considered to be etched in stone, and how much is up for tweaking still. Very happy to see signs that the team is listening to all the feedback. On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 10:37 AM David Bovill via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > The clearest example of a free-forever development licence which you pay > for when you wish to release your app is obviously Unity 3D. I remember > when this project was a small developer community supported by a company > and community of keen early adopters. I asked then why Livecode Ltd didn?t > adopt a model close to that - sure there are differences between the game > market and Livecode?s market but still? > > So the question here is why not do the same here - keep a free-to-develop > ?trial version? without the compilation framework and tools. I?m curious to > the reasoning. The cynic in me would say that the assumption is that there > are too few developers in this (non-game) market who would need the > compilation / stand-alone-builder functions - so while game developers and > companies might pay for commercial Unity 3D licenses - that is not true for > Livecode developers? I don?t / like / buy that argument - so I would love > to here good reasons or not adopting a Unity 3D style licensing model? > > ? Schedule a call with me > On 3 Sep 2021, 15:07 +0100, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > What I liked about your email to me Tom was that it was extremely > specific. You had just a handful of issues you considered absolutely key > and offered to Zoom to show that to me. I look forward to scheduling that > once I finish getting unburried __ > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > On 02/09/2021, 22:59, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Lagi, > > > > I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 > > points needing to be addressed. > > > > Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. > > > > Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the > > platform? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > > > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in > the > > > way > > > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > > > > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > > > and by the time they answer > > > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > > > > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 > months > > > (whichever comes first). > > > > > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without > exiting > > > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > > > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" > twice so > > > it will last 30 days. > > > > > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it > without > > > rushing. > > > > > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > > > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps > those > > > who want to give it a good try. > > > > > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK > > > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > > > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > > > > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running > on a > > > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > > > treacle. > > > > > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in > less > > > than 30 minutes. > > > > > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" > to > > > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > > > > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - > and > > > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > > > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid > idea > > > of the lot so far) > > > > > > > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > > > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > > > > > Lagi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well > give a > > > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > > > On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > > > use-livecode" > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > True, true. > > > > > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around > > > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > > > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > > > would > > > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an > option. > > > > > > > > Ralph DiMola > > > > IT Director > > > > Evergreen Information Services > > > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > > > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > > > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > > > download that. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > > > On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen > > > > via use-livecode" of > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi there > > > > > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > KIndest Regards Lagi > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tom Glod > > Founder & Developer > > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > > Mobile:647.562.9411 > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From ludovic.thebault at laposte.net Sat Sep 4 13:21:22 2021 From: ludovic.thebault at laposte.net (=?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Th=C3=A9bault?=) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 19:21:22 +0200 Subject: Random crash when building standalone In-Reply-To: <07435a17-7883-39cc-d023-044794d956d2@hyperactivesw.com> References: <07435a17-7883-39cc-d023-044794d956d2@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <9B8D65B9-2C20-42F3-B7F7-58305DD7DEB9@laposte.net> Hello, The stacks concerned are not so old! It must be LiveCode 6 or 7. I have the impression that the RevApplicationOverview plugin has an influence in the problem. I?ll dig on it. Ludovic > Le 3 sept. 2021 ? 20:04, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode a ?crit : > > ?On 9/3/21 3:53 AM, Ludovic THEBAULT via use-livecode wrote: >> Hello, >> When I build a Windows or macOS standalone, I sometimes have several alerts that concern the "livecode's stacks" ("answer dialog", "print chooser" ...) that are saved in the standalone (but I don't want them to be!) and that conflict with the original stacks. >> And rarely it ends with a livecode crash. >> These "livecode stack's" are also added as substacks in my stacks... >> This seems to be related to "old stacks". >> I can't find any bug report about this but maybe I didn't look hard enough > > I've seen this before with stacks that were originally built with MC, where you had to include ask and answer stacks manually into the mainstack. I've also heard about these inclusions once or twice in LC but I'm not sure what would cause that. > > From the message box, do: put the substacks of stack "myMainStack" > > If the ask/answer dialogs are there, then you can delete them: > delete stack "answer dialog" of stack "myMainStack" > delete stack "ask dialog" of stack "myMainStack" > > Be sure to include the reference to your mainstack, since otherwise you might delete the one in the IDE. That's no a permanent problem but it won't solve your issue. > > You might also be able to do the same thing in the project browser, but I usually use the message box. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Sat Sep 4 13:47:38 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 12:47:38 -0500 Subject: Random crash when building standalone In-Reply-To: <9B8D65B9-2C20-42F3-B7F7-58305DD7DEB9@laposte.net> References: <07435a17-7883-39cc-d023-044794d956d2@hyperactivesw.com> <9B8D65B9-2C20-42F3-B7F7-58305DD7DEB9@laposte.net> Message-ID: <17bb1ec4a90.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> I use RevApplicationOverview exclusively and haven't had the problem. My guess would be that the standalone builder attaches those substacks and then reopens the wrong copy when it's done. But I'm not sure. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 4, 2021 12:23:43 PM Ludovic Th?bault via use-livecode wrote: > Hello, > > The stacks concerned are not so old! It must be LiveCode 6 or 7. > I have the impression that the RevApplicationOverview plugin has an > influence in the problem. I?ll dig on it. > > Ludovic > >> Le 3 sept. 2021 ? 20:04, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode >> a ?crit : >> >> ?On 9/3/21 3:53 AM, Ludovic THEBAULT via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hello, >>> When I build a Windows or macOS standalone, I sometimes have several alerts >>> that concern the "livecode's stacks" ("answer dialog", "print chooser" ...) >>> that are saved in the standalone (but I don't want them to be!) and that >>> conflict with the original stacks. >>> And rarely it ends with a livecode crash. >>> These "livecode stack's" are also added as substacks in my stacks... >>> This seems to be related to "old stacks". >>> I can't find any bug report about this but maybe I didn't look hard enough >> >> I've seen this before with stacks that were originally built with MC, where >> you had to include ask and answer stacks manually into the mainstack. I've >> also heard about these inclusions once or twice in LC but I'm not sure what >> would cause that. >> >> From the message box, do: put the substacks of stack "myMainStack" >> >> If the ask/answer dialogs are there, then you can delete them: >> delete stack "answer dialog" of stack "myMainStack" >> delete stack "ask dialog" of stack "myMainStack" >> >> Be sure to include the reference to your mainstack, since otherwise you >> might delete the one in the IDE. That's no a permanent problem but it won't >> solve your issue. >> >> You might also be able to do the same thing in the project browser, but I >> usually use the message box. >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Sat Sep 4 20:51:52 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 01:51:52 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> Message-ID: <7e3ee935-05cf-d0fa-7bae-33a4e1a47788@tweedly.net> On 04/09/2021 15:36, David Bovill via use-livecode wrote: > So the question here is why not do the same here - keep a free-to-develop ?trial version? without the compilation framework and tools. I?m curious to the reasoning. The cynic in me would say that the assumption is that there are too few developers in this (non-game) market who would need the compilation / stand-alone-builder functions - so while game developers and companies might pay for commercial Unity 3D licenses - that is not true for Livecode developers? I don?t / like / buy that argument - so I would love to here good reasons or not adopting a Unity 3D style licensing model? I'm not familiar with Unity - so I'll answer just from a LC perspective (and in many ways just reinforce what Kevin said in his response to your original suggestion). The problem with a free, no-app-builder version is that you can do so much with it. You can make it easy (or even trivial) for anyone to install and run the stacks you create. 0. Either create your stack as a plugin, or create a plugin which gives a menu of apps to run. Then instruct your users to: 1. Install LC (free-to-develop). LC's installation process is almost hands-free. 2. download/run a simple installer script or shell script which will put a stack into the (default location for) the plugins folder. 3. Run the IDE. 4. Follow the 3-click instructions to change the setting to start this plugin when LC starts up. and you're done. It's not 100% as simple to install as a built app, but it's not rocket science. And provided your stacks don't involve the menu system, users will probably not even notice that they're in the IDE. Design your app to look like it was "mobile-first" with its own menu built-in and 95% of your users would be happy. Alex. From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Sun Sep 5 01:55:45 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 00:55:45 -0500 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <7e3ee935-05cf-d0fa-7bae-33a4e1a47788@tweedly.net> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> <7e3ee935-05cf-d0fa-7bae-33a4e1a47788@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <17bb486e6e8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> You wouldn't necessarily even need that much. Tell them to install the free version and open your stack from the File menu. It isn't an app but they'd have all the capabilities. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 4, 2021 7:53:43 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > On 04/09/2021 15:36, David Bovill via use-livecode wrote: >> So the question here is why not do the same here - keep a free-to-develop >> ?trial version? without the compilation framework and tools. I?m curious to >> the reasoning. The cynic in me would say that the assumption is that there >> are too few developers in this (non-game) market who would need the >> compilation / stand-alone-builder functions - so while game developers and >> companies might pay for commercial Unity 3D licenses - that is not true for >> Livecode developers? I don?t / like / buy that argument - so I would love >> to here good reasons or not adopting a Unity 3D style licensing model? > > I'm not familiar with Unity - so I'll answer just from a LC perspective > (and in many ways just reinforce what Kevin said in his response to your > original suggestion). > > The problem with a free, no-app-builder version is that you can do so > much with it. > > You can make it easy (or even trivial) for anyone to install and run the > stacks you create. > > 0. Either create your stack as a plugin, or create a plugin which gives > a menu of apps to run. > > Then instruct your users to: > > 1. Install LC (free-to-develop). LC's installation process is almost > hands-free. > > 2. download/run a simple installer script or shell script which will put > a stack into the (default location for) the plugins folder. > > 3. Run the IDE. > > 4. Follow the 3-click instructions to change the setting to start this > plugin when LC starts up. > > and you're done. It's not 100% as simple to install as a built app, but > it's not rocket science. > > And provided your stacks don't involve the menu system, users will > probably not even notice that they're in the IDE. Design your app to > look like it was "mobile-first" with its own menu built-in and 95% of > your users would be happy. > > Alex. > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au Sun Sep 5 03:42:58 2021 From: terry.judd at unimelb.edu.au (Terry Judd) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 07:42:58 +0000 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <17bb486e6e8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> <7e3ee935-05cf-d0fa-7bae-33a4e1a47788@tweedly.net> <17bb486e6e8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Not sure how this would work - but what if only licensed versions of LC could produce and run distributable/shareable stacks while the free version could only run stacks produced by that particular instance of the app? ?On 5/9/21, 3:57 pm, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" wrote: You wouldn't necessarily even need that much. Tell them to install the free version and open your stack from the File menu. It isn't an app but they'd have all the capabilities. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 4, 2021 7:53:43 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: From daniel at digitalfauna.io Sun Sep 5 07:01:26 2021 From: daniel at digitalfauna.io (Dan Brown) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:01:26 +0300 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <17bb486e6e8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> <7e3ee935-05cf-d0fa-7bae-33a4e1a47788@tweedly.net> <17bb486e6e8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: There will always be a subset of people that will circumvent paying for software. I'm not convinced an endless battle trying to prevent misuse is worth the cost of hampering the onboarding experience for new customers. Unless you've cornered the market you really can't afford to be user hostile. Personally would keep it simple and have 3 licenses with no platform restrictions - Evaluation license (free) Nag screen with 5-10 second timeout in IDE and standalones (show periodic nag screens if the gui is hidden etc) - Discounted license ( $80 ish, 1 full version cycle) For non commercial use - Commercial license (1 full version cycle) For commercial use I'd also get rid of any existing lifetime and lock in licenses (sorry, time to clean house) And I wouldn't advertise or offer any special behind the scenes deals with support (sorry, that will just antagonise the paying user base) Introduce breaking changes when it's necessary to move the language forward On Sun, 5 Sep 2021, 08:57 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > You wouldn't necessarily even need that much. Tell them to install the > free > version and open your stack from the File menu. It isn't an app but they'd > have all the capabilities. > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 4, 2021 7:53:43 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: > > > On 04/09/2021 15:36, David Bovill via use-livecode wrote: > >> So the question here is why not do the same here - keep a > free-to-develop > >> ?trial version? without the compilation framework and tools. I?m > curious to > >> the reasoning. The cynic in me would say that the assumption is that > there > >> are too few developers in this (non-game) market who would need the > >> compilation / stand-alone-builder functions - so while game developers > and > >> companies might pay for commercial Unity 3D licenses - that is not true > for > >> Livecode developers? I don?t / like / buy that argument - so I would > love > >> to here good reasons or not adopting a Unity 3D style licensing model? > > > > I'm not familiar with Unity - so I'll answer just from a LC perspective > > (and in many ways just reinforce what Kevin said in his response to your > > original suggestion). > > > > The problem with a free, no-app-builder version is that you can do so > > much with it. > > > > You can make it easy (or even trivial) for anyone to install and run the > > stacks you create. > > > > 0. Either create your stack as a plugin, or create a plugin which gives > > a menu of apps to run. > > > > Then instruct your users to: > > > > 1. Install LC (free-to-develop). LC's installation process is almost > > hands-free. > > > > 2. download/run a simple installer script or shell script which will put > > a stack into the (default location for) the plugins folder. > > > > 3. Run the IDE. > > > > 4. Follow the 3-click instructions to change the setting to start this > > plugin when LC starts up. > > > > and you're done. It's not 100% as simple to install as a built app, but > > it's not rocket science. > > > > And provided your stacks don't involve the menu system, users will > > probably not even notice that they're in the IDE. Design your app to > > look like it was "mobile-first" with its own menu built-in and 95% of > > your users would be happy. > > > > Alex. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From richmondmathewson at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 07:24:42 2021 From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:24:42 +0300 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> <7e3ee935-05cf-d0fa-7bae-33a4e1a47788@tweedly.net> <17bb486e6e8.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Dreamweaver, RevMedia . . . absolutely no need to do any thinking whatsoever . . . it has all happened before. On 5.09.21 10:42, Terry Judd via use-livecode wrote: > Not sure how this would work - but what if only licensed versions of LC could produce and run distributable/shareable stacks while the free version could only run stacks produced by that particular instance of the app? > > ?On 5/9/21, 3:57 pm, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" wrote: > > You wouldn't necessarily even need that much. Tell them to install the free > version and open your stack from the File menu. It isn't an app but they'd > have all the capabilities. > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 4, 2021 7:53:43 PM Alex Tweedly via use-livecode > wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Sun Sep 5 08:30:45 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:30:45 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Hi Folks, This seems headed for trouble again if we're not careful. We must avoid repeating the same history: 1. Added work for LC Ltd without compensation* 2. Buggy struggling main product due to #1 3. Overcomplicating things 4. Burdening those who pay with the extra expense 5. *Added work for ourselves without compensation; (That was the previous "bright idea" remember?) Cutting out the free Community version is a smart move. $10/mo hobby is pretty darn cheap. Everyone can afford that. (Some end-clients want OSS, but only half of those know why. The other half are only repeating something they heard.) A demo is beneficial, and calendar-time-limited demos suck. Thus, unlimited-calendar-time demo could be the way to go. 10-line scripts suck too. Non-standalone might be the way. But as Alex said: > You can make it easy (or even trivial) for anyone > to install and run the stacks you create. Yep. Even easier than your example; no plugin necessary. A shortcut to your stack, and it launches the IDE. Not that much different from a full desktop app. I could make it near enough to please most users. Then we're still encouraging nonpayment for LC. So we need an additional limitation. But now we're getting into bad ideas... Terry: > what if only licensed versions of LC could produce > and run distributable/shareable stacks while the free version > could only run stacks produced by that particular instance of the app? That's getting nowhere. Two separate communities to support (plus the sucky problem of Community-can't-run-this-stack) so extra work for free, and it's begging to be gamed. I can probably still make a great "app" experience. This repeats all or most of the old problems, and even discourages using the $10 version. Worse still... Dan: > Introduce breaking changes when it's necessary > to move the language forward We tried "cut off the old hair" memes already, remember? That was part of the open source breathless refactoring excitement. Result: twice the bugs with a quarter of the performance for years. Plus tons of added work for us and our clients to update stacks. Some people went out of business, others used tons of time or money. Many of these misguided repeating memes simply need to die! Better to kill a meme than to see more people get hurt. LC is not an OS. Breaking changes have been a major pain in the rear. Almost as bad as the extra bugs and performance problems. To have a future, we need a firm stable foundation to build upon. Not encouraging an ever-shifting mire. Recompiles, yes. Rewrites, no. If maintaining is not easier in LC, people will go use other tools. We've seen that already. We need to learn from experience. Likewise... > I'd also get rid of any existing lifetime > and lock in licenses (sorry, time to clean house) That would clean house all right! Hand grenade style. We'd be getting to the point of serious self-harm. This one is not so bad, though: > Nag screen with 5-10 second timeout in IDE and standalones Nix the standalones; free should be noncompiling, at least for desktop. But nags can be useful. And a possible mobile solution, but it would have to be combined with one more limitation. Today's users are quite willing to tolerate some nags. If LC Free competes against its own $10 version, nobody wins. We're back to a buggy underfunded main product. I've been too sick (good old Delta) to follow the whole thread, just read the last few messages, and will probably not be able to follow the rest of the discussion for a while either. This post is all I can muster. But let's learn from the old mistakes, eh? Many things which sound great ... aren't. Repeating them makes things ... worse. Let's not nuke ourselves again in the process. :) Happy coding, and hopefully I'll be back in action after a few days. Hoping this doesn't head right off the cliff while I'm down sick! Wish I could give this the full attention it deserves.... Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From daniel at digitalfauna.io Sun Sep 5 09:39:29 2021 From: daniel at digitalfauna.io (Dan Brown) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 16:39:29 +0300 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: Worse still... Dan: > Introduce breaking changes when it's necessary > to move the language forward We tried "cut off the old hair" memes already, remember? I would argue that retaining legacy functionality and behaviours whilst trying to modernise or improve a language introduces bugs and is a drain on resources. Hence why nearly every successful language has had to bite the bullet at points and break compatibility in order to move forward. That didn't happen during the refactor (it probably should have). Maintaining a stable code base whilst still supporting 10 year old stacks hasn't worked On Sun, 5 Sep 2021, 15:32 Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > This seems headed for trouble again if we're not careful. > > We must avoid repeating the same history: > > 1. Added work for LC Ltd without compensation* > 2. Buggy struggling main product due to #1 > 3. Overcomplicating things > 4. Burdening those who pay with the extra expense > 5. *Added work for ourselves without compensation; > (That was the previous "bright idea" remember?) > > Cutting out the free Community version is a smart move. > $10/mo hobby is pretty darn cheap. Everyone can afford that. > > (Some end-clients want OSS, but only half of those know why. > The other half are only repeating something they heard.) > > A demo is beneficial, and calendar-time-limited demos suck. > Thus, unlimited-calendar-time demo could be the way to go. > 10-line scripts suck too. Non-standalone might be the way. > > But as Alex said: > > > You can make it easy (or even trivial) for anyone > > to install and run the stacks you create. > > Yep. Even easier than your example; no plugin necessary. > A shortcut to your stack, and it launches the IDE. > Not that much different from a full desktop app. > I could make it near enough to please most users. > Then we're still encouraging nonpayment for LC. > So we need an additional limitation. > > But now we're getting into bad ideas... > > Terry: > > > what if only licensed versions of LC could produce > > and run distributable/shareable stacks while the free version > > could only run stacks produced by that particular instance of the app? > > That's getting nowhere. Two separate communities to support > (plus the sucky problem of Community-can't-run-this-stack) > so extra work for free, and it's begging to be gamed. > > I can probably still make a great "app" experience. > This repeats all or most of the old problems, > and even discourages using the $10 version. > > Worse still... > > Dan: > > > Introduce breaking changes when it's necessary > > to move the language forward > > We tried "cut off the old hair" memes already, remember? > That was part of the open source breathless refactoring excitement. > Result: twice the bugs with a quarter of the performance for years. > Plus tons of added work for us and our clients to update stacks. > > Some people went out of business, others used tons of time or money. > Many of these misguided repeating memes simply need to die! > Better to kill a meme than to see more people get hurt. > > LC is not an OS. Breaking changes have been a major pain in the rear. > Almost as bad as the extra bugs and performance problems. > > To have a future, we need a firm stable foundation to build upon. > Not encouraging an ever-shifting mire. Recompiles, yes. Rewrites, no. > If maintaining is not easier in LC, people will go use other tools. > We've seen that already. We need to learn from experience. > > Likewise... > > > I'd also get rid of any existing lifetime > > and lock in licenses (sorry, time to clean house) > > That would clean house all right! Hand grenade style. > We'd be getting to the point of serious self-harm. > > This one is not so bad, though: > > > Nag screen with 5-10 second timeout in IDE and standalones > > Nix the standalones; free should be noncompiling, at least for desktop. > But nags can be useful. And a possible mobile solution, > but it would have to be combined with one more limitation. > > Today's users are quite willing to tolerate some nags. > If LC Free competes against its own $10 version, nobody wins. > We're back to a buggy underfunded main product. > > I've been too sick (good old Delta) to follow the whole thread, > just read the last few messages, and will probably not be able > to follow the rest of the discussion for a while either. > This post is all I can muster. > > But let's learn from the old mistakes, eh? > Many things which sound great ... aren't. > Repeating them makes things ... worse. > Let's not nuke ourselves again in the process. :) > > Happy coding, and hopefully I'll be back in action after a few days. > Hoping this doesn't head right off the cliff while I'm down sick! > Wish I could give this the full attention it deserves.... > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From daniel at digitalfauna.io Sun Sep 5 09:55:01 2021 From: daniel at digitalfauna.io (Dan Brown) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 16:55:01 +0300 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: > I'd also get rid of any existing lifetime > and lock in licenses (sorry, time to clean house) That would clean house all right! Hand grenade style. We'd be getting to the point of serious self-harm. It can't be any more harmful than abruptly pulling the rug from under the feet of your largest user demographic. If revenue is the root of livecodes problems then I don't see why a small demographic of lifetimers is exempt from an update in policy that seeks to increase the paying subscription count On Sun, 5 Sep 2021, 15:32 Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > This seems headed for trouble again if we're not careful. > > We must avoid repeating the same history: > > 1. Added work for LC Ltd without compensation* > 2. Buggy struggling main product due to #1 > 3. Overcomplicating things > 4. Burdening those who pay with the extra expense > 5. *Added work for ourselves without compensation; > (That was the previous "bright idea" remember?) > > Cutting out the free Community version is a smart move. > $10/mo hobby is pretty darn cheap. Everyone can afford that. > > (Some end-clients want OSS, but only half of those know why. > The other half are only repeating something they heard.) > > A demo is beneficial, and calendar-time-limited demos suck. > Thus, unlimited-calendar-time demo could be the way to go. > 10-line scripts suck too. Non-standalone might be the way. > > But as Alex said: > > > You can make it easy (or even trivial) for anyone > > to install and run the stacks you create. > > Yep. Even easier than your example; no plugin necessary. > A shortcut to your stack, and it launches the IDE. > Not that much different from a full desktop app. > I could make it near enough to please most users. > Then we're still encouraging nonpayment for LC. > So we need an additional limitation. > > But now we're getting into bad ideas... > > Terry: > > > what if only licensed versions of LC could produce > > and run distributable/shareable stacks while the free version > > could only run stacks produced by that particular instance of the app? > > That's getting nowhere. Two separate communities to support > (plus the sucky problem of Community-can't-run-this-stack) > so extra work for free, and it's begging to be gamed. > > I can probably still make a great "app" experience. > This repeats all or most of the old problems, > and even discourages using the $10 version. > > Worse still... > > Dan: > > > Introduce breaking changes when it's necessary > > to move the language forward > > We tried "cut off the old hair" memes already, remember? > That was part of the open source breathless refactoring excitement. > Result: twice the bugs with a quarter of the performance for years. > Plus tons of added work for us and our clients to update stacks. > > Some people went out of business, others used tons of time or money. > Many of these misguided repeating memes simply need to die! > Better to kill a meme than to see more people get hurt. > > LC is not an OS. Breaking changes have been a major pain in the rear. > Almost as bad as the extra bugs and performance problems. > > To have a future, we need a firm stable foundation to build upon. > Not encouraging an ever-shifting mire. Recompiles, yes. Rewrites, no. > If maintaining is not easier in LC, people will go use other tools. > We've seen that already. We need to learn from experience. > > Likewise... > > > I'd also get rid of any existing lifetime > > and lock in licenses (sorry, time to clean house) > > That would clean house all right! Hand grenade style. > We'd be getting to the point of serious self-harm. > > This one is not so bad, though: > > > Nag screen with 5-10 second timeout in IDE and standalones > > Nix the standalones; free should be noncompiling, at least for desktop. > But nags can be useful. And a possible mobile solution, > but it would have to be combined with one more limitation. > > Today's users are quite willing to tolerate some nags. > If LC Free competes against its own $10 version, nobody wins. > We're back to a buggy underfunded main product. > > I've been too sick (good old Delta) to follow the whole thread, > just read the last few messages, and will probably not be able > to follow the rest of the discussion for a while either. > This post is all I can muster. > > But let's learn from the old mistakes, eh? > Many things which sound great ... aren't. > Repeating them makes things ... worse. > Let's not nuke ourselves again in the process. :) > > Happy coding, and hopefully I'll be back in action after a few days. > Hoping this doesn't head right off the cliff while I'm down sick! > Wish I could give this the full attention it deserves.... > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bdrunrev at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 11:35:43 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 16:35:43 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: I'm sure Kevin etc. doesn't share my view on this. But here it is. Get your popcorn. On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:56 PM Dan Brown via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > It can't be any more harmful than abruptly pulling the rug from under the > feet of your largest user demographic. If revenue is the root of livecodes > problems then I don't see why a small demographic of lifetimers is exempt > from an update in policy that seeks to increase the paying subscription > count Largest user demographic? Free-loaders who contributed no money but plenty of baseless whining? So many protest poverty but I'm 100% certain they spend more every year than the cost of an annual license fee on plenty of other things. Some of us paid for a license for years in order to fund something we believed in and wanted to see thrive, even though that meant having to forego stuff that the free-loaders would instead be spending their money on. FWIW my health problems have made it difficult for me to do any work that required keeping regular hours or even being able to keep appointments. Yet I'd bought licenses for 18 years before I bought a lifetime license (I still have unused licenses in my account, at one point in the last few years I had three concurrent licenses). When I hear "can't afford" I translate it into "I prioritise my spending differently". "If I don't make any financial contribution to LC Ltd I can get a new iPhone" - that kind of thing. I just sacrificed other things in order to keep supporting LC. When they had their free toys taken away the rampant hostility from the free-loaders shows what little value they brought. Some of those whining free-loaders have barely made 80 posts on the Forum in the past 8 years. Despite being a continuous license payer, despite my health problems, I freely gave hundreds of hours of help to people on the Forum. Some of them are saying "if LC Ltd had had a donate button, I'd have sent them some money". Yeah, right - contacting LC Ltd and asking how they could contribute financially was beyond their abilities. In 25 years on the internet, I've never before seen such a collection of valueless people as these whiners (they wouldn't be tolerated in any other business or open source community). Most of the users of the Community edition are of so little value that they can't even be bothered to take part in the Forum and provide support to other users! When I look at the whiners compared to how few posts they even made on the Forum, I'm filled with disgust. Have they no shame? They contribute neither time nor money. It's simple. Those who aren't parasites will decide to start contributing financially. Those who are parasites will go away, and live off some other community - and the absence of parasites will be beneficial. If just one of those who isn't a parasite takes out a standard license it will take him nearly 20 years to contribute as much financially as I have _since_ the "community" edition was launched. People like me could have simply stopped paying and used "the free edition" too, and this situation would have come about much sooner. If it turns out all of those who used the Community edition were parasites, what has LC Ltd lost if they vanish? Parasite might sound like a strong word, but what word do you use for someone who takes, takes, takes but never gives back, contributing nothing else than to make an organism weaker? From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Sun Sep 5 11:55:49 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 10:55:49 -0500 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: <17bb6ac4788.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> On the flip side, if there's only a small demographic then the loss of that revenue would be minimal and the company would retain its honorable reputation. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 5, 2021 8:57:33 AM Dan Brown via use-livecode wrote:. > I don't see why a small demographic of lifetimers is exempt > from an update in policy that seeks to increase the paying subscription > count From harrison at all-auctions.com Sun Sep 5 12:15:33 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 12:15:33 -0400 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: <24031310-85B3-44EF-86E7-1C89C2F6D9AC@all-auctions.com> Hi Dan, So you want the company to break more promises, even to the lifetimers? A lot of the lifetimers have spent a lot of money on licenses before deciding to invest in lifetime licenses. I don?t think you want to be ticking off what is probably the company's most loyal base. It?s a recipe for disaster! Just my 2 cents for the day. Rick > On Sep 5, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Dan Brown via use-livecode wrote: > > If revenue is the root of livecodes > problems then I don't see why a small demographic of lifetimers is exempt > from an update in policy that seeks to increase the paying subscription > count From bdrunrev at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 14:24:43 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 19:24:43 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <24031310-85B3-44EF-86E7-1C89C2F6D9AC@all-auctions.com> References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> <24031310-85B3-44EF-86E7-1C89C2F6D9AC@all-auctions.com> Message-ID: Over on the Forum I've seen several of the whiners criticising the lifetime licenses - people who have paid a tiny fraction of what we've paid (if they've paid anything at all)! I suspect their baseless criticisms have cost more than any of the whiners have paid in license fees. If I ran the Forum the baseless whiners would be told to "stop whining or leave". I know of dozens of people banned from social media for things far less offensive than are said about LC Ltd on their own forum. I rarely delete emails and just went back through mine. I'd been a license payer for more than a decade before I got a lifetime offer. But I couldn't afford it until I got the offer again, some 5 years later. Even then the lifetime license cost me more than I'd paid in the previous 18 years combined, so I had to think hard about it (not sure if I will be around in 18 years). And though there were some years of future license banked in my LC account, I didn't quibble and say "can I have a discount for the years I've already paid in advance". I think if I had done that LC Ltd would have taken that into account, because that's how they roll. But to me it felt mean-spirited to ask for a discount. Which is why I think LC Ltd have been very magnanimous to those who say they can't afford a license. My self-respect wouldn't let me be one of those people. I have no expectation of LC Ltd listening to Dan's suggestion, as the one thing that stands out from watching Kevin for 20 years is that he does his utmost to be honourable. If the majority of those free-loaders had any honour, we wouldn't be having any of this discussion. I hoped that the open source initiative would have seen positive contributions, but that didn't happen. I'll come back in a year and see if they've even managed to compile the existing code. Regards, Bernard On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 5:16 PM Rick Harrison via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Dan, > > So you want the company to break more promises, even to the lifetimers? > > A lot of the lifetimers have spent a lot of money on licenses before > deciding to invest in lifetime licenses. I don?t think you want to be > ticking off what is probably the company's most loyal base. > It?s a recipe for disaster! > > Just my 2 cents for the day. > > Rick > > From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Sun Sep 5 15:31:39 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 21:31:39 +0200 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: I must admit, that i totally agree with you. > Am 05.09.2021 um 17:35 schrieb Bernard Devlin via use-livecode : > > ..... > > Largest user demographic? Free-loaders who contributed no money but plenty > of baseless whining? > > So many protest poverty but I'm 100% certain they spend more every year > than the cost of an annual license fee on plenty of other things. Some of > us paid for a license for years in order to fund something we believed in > and wanted to see thrive, even though that meant having to forego stuff > that the free-loaders would instead be spending their money on. FWIW my > health problems have made it difficult for me to do any work that required > keeping regular hours or even being able to keep appointments. Yet I'd > bought licenses for 18 years before I bought a lifetime license (I still > have unused licenses in my account, at one point in the last few years I > had three concurrent licenses). When I hear "can't afford" I translate it > into "I prioritise my spending differently". "If I don't make any > financial contribution to LC Ltd I can get a new iPhone" - that kind of > thing. I just sacrificed other things in order to keep supporting LC. > > When they had their free toys taken away the rampant hostility from the > free-loaders shows what little value they brought. Some of those whining > free-loaders have barely made 80 posts on the Forum in the past 8 years. > Despite being a continuous license payer, despite my health problems, I > freely gave hundreds of hours of help to people on the Forum. Some of them > are saying "if LC Ltd had had a donate button, I'd have sent them some > money". Yeah, right - contacting LC Ltd and asking how they could > contribute financially was beyond their abilities. > > In 25 years on the internet, I've never before seen such a collection of > valueless people as these whiners (they wouldn't be tolerated in any other > business or open source community). Most of the users of the Community > edition are of so little value that they can't even be bothered to take > part in the Forum and provide support to other users! When I look at the > whiners compared to how few posts they even made on the Forum, I'm filled > with disgust. Have they no shame? They contribute neither time nor money. > > It's simple. Those who aren't parasites will decide to start contributing > financially. Those who are parasites will go away, and live off some other > community - and the absence of parasites will be beneficial. If just one of > those who isn't a parasite takes out a standard license it will take him > nearly 20 years to contribute as much financially as I have _since_ the > "community" edition was launched. People like me could have simply stopped > paying and used "the free edition" too, and this situation would have come > about much sooner. If it turns out all of those who used the Community > edition were parasites, what has LC Ltd lost if they vanish? > > Parasite might sound like a strong word, but what word do you use for > someone who takes, takes, takes but never gives back, contributing nothing > else than to make an organism weaker? > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From brahma at hindu.org Sun Sep 5 21:46:33 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:46:33 +0000 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: Let?s get this conundrum worked out: 1. If I have Mac or Windows machine 2. If I download ?Livecode 9.6.4 Standard ? 3. And I pay $300.00 for an annual license 4. I can build for Desktop for Windows, Linux, iOS iPhone, Android 5. Minus Premium features 6. For one year + plus the upgrades that occur in that year. 7 Now, 1. I have a Mac or Windows machine 2. If I buy $9.90 per month 3. If I can *still* download ?Livecode 9.6.4 Standard ? 4. I can build for Desktop for Windows, Linux, iOS iPhone, Android 5. But, I will forgo any upgrades that occur in that year. 6. If I built, in one month time, a standalone the works iOS iPhone and Android. It will be good for Apple and Google 7. But I stop subscription that means, the standalone stops working What is complicated about that? OR can we clarify? The HTML ?thingy? is not addressed. So I have a ?permanent, Business License, all features included,? but I want to buy a license for co-workers that live, for example, in California. $300.00 is cheap. Svasti Astu ? Be Well Brahmanathaswami Get SivaSiva.app ? It free! https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/sivasiva On 9/5/21, 2:32 AM, "use-livecode" wrote: Hi Folks, This seems headed for trouble again if we're not careful. We must avoid repeating the same history: 1. Added work for LC Ltd without compensation* 2. Buggy struggling main product due to #1 3. Overcomplicating things 4. Burdening those who pay with the extra expense 5. *Added work for ourselves without compensation; (That was the previous "bright idea" remember?) Cutting out the free Community version is a smart move. $10/mo hobby is pretty darn cheap. Everyone can afford that. (Some end-clients want OSS, but only half of those know why. The other half are only repeating something they heard.) A demo is beneficial, and calendar-time-limited demos suck. Thus, unlimited-calendar-time demo could be the way to go. 10-line scripts suck too. Non-standalone might be the way. But as Alex said: > You can make it easy (or even trivial) for anyone > to install and run the stacks you create. Yep. Even easier than your example; no plugin necessary. A shortcut to your stack, and it launches the IDE. Not that much different from a full desktop app. I could make it near enough to please most users. Then we're still encouraging nonpayment for LC. So we need an additional limitation. But now we're From andre at andregarzia.com Mon Sep 6 07:20:46 2021 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:20:46 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: Don?t know how many people here remember that they tried that approach with Dreamcard. I really like it, but in the end it didn?t work for the company. I see many members here in the list saying ?what should be done?, ?what would have worked?, and I wanted to remember every one that while speculation is fun and a healthy practice, it is not necessarily a representation of truth. We don?t know what could have worked, very few people here know the day to day managing of LiveCode Ltd to judge what are their best options. What people here can do is lobby from the user?s point of view, and yet I see a ton of people ?playing CEO with these emails?, that is not productive IMHO. Let?s take a step back for a second and realise as a community we lack many things that other programming language communities have. We do have a very healthy mailing list, forum, and occasional conference. We?re all friends, and many of us have known each other for decades. Those are things that many, if not most, programming language communities do not have. And yet we have not fostered many of the ancillary things that most communities do. * We have very few open source projects in the community, and the ones we have have very few contributors. * We have not build anything like a package manager to help us share code around. The IDE built-in extension store, and code sharing features are extremely simple. * We don?t have an ecosystem of tools and libraries around. We have some tools and some libraries. * We don?t have many people writing blogs, making videos, writing books, and fostering the community. * There are very few services and companies besides LiveCode Ltd offering products to the community. All items mentioned above are important regardless if LiveCode Community Edition is around or not. Without those things, it is very hard for any FOSS initiative to blossom. Without those things, it is very hard to make a programming language community feel vibrant and alive. We had eight years of LC Community Edition, and as a community we haven?t really cared to nurture it. Very few people contributed patches. We all loved having it, we were just not putting enough care into it. And that is how FOSS dies. What is most important is that the Community Edition was not the on-ramp path to attract new users and then lead them towards a commercial license. What happened was the opposite, Community users stayed with the Community Edition and many paying users migrated to the FOSS offer. If the business model of LC was different, if they had structured it all differently, maybe it could have worked, but that is just speculation, we don?t know it might have failed in such manner that LC Ltd would be dead. What I do know, and I know quite a lot about programming language communities, is that without more than just a mailing list and forum, you can?t have a vibrant community. Without a community that feels engaging and alive, you don?t get new users. I?m happy paying for my license because I can see the value LC provides me, and how my money directly affects their ability to output quality stuff. I love FOSS, but I?d rather have a healthy LC Ltd around with the resources to keep building amazing goodies. We as a community can build all the cool stuff around the proprietary language, there is a ton of things we could have that would make this a more lively place. The question is, who here wants to build stuff? A From andre at andregarzia.com Mon Sep 6 07:26:51 2021 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:26:51 +0100 Subject: 9.6.4-gm-1 what? Message-ID: So, I launched 9.6.4 today and got a notification to download 9.6.4-gm-1, this is not a version scheme that LC has been using before. I remember them being DP for developer previews, then becoming RC for release candidates, and then stable. I don?t remember Gold Masters in their versions, which I assume would be the stable version. Now, if I?m downloading 9.6.4-gm-1 now, what have I been running with 9.6.4? I though that was the stable version. Oh, and the download page still doesn?t list past DP and RCs. A From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Mon Sep 6 07:33:40 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 13:33:40 +0200 Subject: 9.6.4-gm-1 what? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The "old" download was build 15551 and had a problem with building HTML5 standalones. The new one is build 15552 which has that bug fixed. See https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23317 Regards, Matthias > Am 06.09.2021 um 13:26 schrieb Andre Garzia via use-livecode : > > So, I launched 9.6.4 today and got a notification to download 9.6.4-gm-1, this is not a version scheme that LC has been using before. I remember them being DP for developer previews, then becoming RC for release candidates, and then stable. I don?t remember Gold Masters in their versions, which I assume would be the stable version. > > Now, if I?m downloading 9.6.4-gm-1 now, what have I been running with 9.6.4? I though that was the stable version. > > Oh, and the download page still doesn?t list past DP and RCs. > > A > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Mon Sep 6 07:36:17 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 13:36:17 +0200 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: +1 > Am 06.09.2021 um 13:20 schrieb Andre Garzia via use-livecode : > > Don?t know how many people here remember that they tried that approach with Dreamcard. I really like it, but in the end it didn?t work for the company. I see many members here in the list saying ?what should be done?, ?what would have worked?, and I wanted to remember every one that while speculation is fun and a healthy practice, it is not necessarily a representation of truth. We don?t know what could have worked, very few people here know the day to day managing of LiveCode Ltd to judge what are their best options. What people here can do is lobby from the user?s point of view, and yet I see a ton of people ?playing CEO with these emails?, that is not productive IMHO. > > Let?s take a step back for a second and realise as a community we lack many things that other programming language communities have. We do have a very healthy mailing list, forum, and occasional conference. We?re all friends, and many of us have known each other for decades. Those are things that many, if not most, programming language communities do not have. And yet we have not fostered many of the ancillary things that most communities do. > > * We have very few open source projects in the community, and the ones we have have very few contributors. > * We have not build anything like a package manager to help us share code around. The IDE built-in extension store, and code sharing features are extremely simple. > * We don?t have an ecosystem of tools and libraries around. We have some tools and some libraries. > * We don?t have many people writing blogs, making videos, writing books, and fostering the community. > * There are very few services and companies besides LiveCode Ltd offering products to the community. > > > All items mentioned above are important regardless if LiveCode Community Edition is around or not. Without those things, it is very hard for any FOSS initiative to blossom. Without those things, it is very hard to make a programming language community feel vibrant and alive. We had eight years of LC Community Edition, and as a community we haven?t really cared to nurture it. Very few people contributed patches. We all loved having it, we were just not putting enough care into it. And that is how FOSS dies. > > What is most important is that the Community Edition was not the on-ramp path to attract new users and then lead them towards a commercial license. What happened was the opposite, Community users stayed with the Community Edition and many paying users migrated to the FOSS offer. If the business model of LC was different, if they had structured it all differently, maybe it could have worked, but that is just speculation, we don?t know it might have failed in such manner that LC Ltd would be dead. > > What I do know, and I know quite a lot about programming language communities, is that without more than just a mailing list and forum, you can?t have a vibrant community. Without a community that feels engaging and alive, you don?t get new users. > > I?m happy paying for my license because I can see the value LC provides me, and how my money directly affects their ability to output quality stuff. I love FOSS, but I?d rather have a healthy LC Ltd around with the resources to keep building amazing goodies. We as a community can build all the cool stuff around the proprietary language, there is a ton of things we could have that would make this a more lively place. > > The question is, who here wants to build stuff? > > A > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Mon Sep 6 09:09:15 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 14:09:15 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: <687f3be0-b240-b2ed-9642-5281dac3f5a8@tweedly.net> +1??? Yes, speculation is fun, but probably not very useful :-) On 06/09/2021 12:20, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > Let?s take a step back for a second and realise as a community we lack many things that other programming language communities have. We do have a very healthy mailing list, forum, and occasional conference. We?re all friends, and many of us have known each other for decades. Those are things that many, if not most, programming language communities do not have. And yet we have not fostered many of the ancillary things that most communities do. > > * We have very few open source projects in the community, and the ones we have have very few contributors. And I don't think they're well known, or advertised as willing (eager) to have new contributors. > * We have not build anything like a package manager to help us share code around. The IDE built-in extension store, and code sharing features are extremely simple. Yes, we need a package manager and helpful conventions (where are libraries found to download, where do they reside on your system, how do they 'require' other libraries, etc. ) Re "The IDE built-in ...": Do you mean "sample stacks" ? Or is there another extensions store and code sharing feature I've missed? If it is "sample stacks" then I would 100% disagree about it being easy to use. But I'll put those comments in a separate email so it doesn't obscure the point here. > * We don?t have an ecosystem of tools and libraries around. We have some tools and some libraries. > * We don?t have many people writing blogs, making videos, writing books, and fostering the community. > * There are very few services and companies besides LiveCode Ltd offering products to the community. > > > .... > The question is, who here wants to build stuff? I think that having a package manager, and some infrastructure would be a huge step towards encouraging many people to build stuff. I do believe that the effort that went into LC Ltd supporting widgets (store, naming convention, add to toolbar, integrate to docs, ...) could, even should, be applied to script-only libraries and stacks. Or - we find some way to do that as part under Livecode.org I know I have a few libraries that I could make public - but I'd be much happier, and more likely to finish up doing it - if there were some guidelines or support for how libraries should be placed, documented, etc. revdocs - is that still around somewhere ? Or is there a better alternative ? Thanks, Alex. From alex at tweedly.net Mon Sep 6 09:11:47 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 14:11:47 +0100 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] Message-ID: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> In the main thread, I mentioned that I found revOnline (aka "Sample Stacks"), but didn't say how or why. Here the answer to that ... It has: - no differentiation between 'libraries' and 'examples' - it has no support for script-only stacks, which is surely the way most libraries will be done nowadays. - a left hand scrolling box with ~90 'categories', in no particular order, no grouping - grid vs list view - list shows you a list, which is basically the same as a 1-wide grid rather than 2-wide, plus a larger view of some random other item (OK, it's not random - it simply doesn't update when it should) - updates when you click on the picture - but gives no cursor hint that you can do that - a drop-down list for sort order - which isn't sized adequately when you first open revonline - a 'search' box which must search something, but I don't know what. There is a sample stack called "Compare stack scripts", and which is tagged as "compare" - but isn't found if you search for "compare". - and I usually find things via "browser + google" (or similar) and the stuff in samples stacks isn't visible that way. Hmmmm - maybe I've just found my next project :-) Alex. From david.bovill at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 08:27:45 2021 From: david.bovill at gmail.com (David Bovill) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 13:27:45 +0100 Subject: Building stuff In-Reply-To: References: <79059ae7-c074-0037-9a45-6d1b0e40bb63@pair.com> Message-ID: <3f19cd0e-af3a-40e3-bc97-e4dd3ee8bdfc@Spark> It?s a good question - what to build with regard to the sort of tools and components a vibrant developer community expects. I only know about examples of open source communities, and though I?d be interested in exploring how such a coding community might work with alternative closed licensing schemes - the only example that I know of would be music licensing - so I?ll stick to open source examples. Andre mentions the following list: 1. Package Manager 2. Tools and Libraries 3. Community Evangelism 4. Business Model - Ecosystem of Companies I think that should be a good list to start with. Challenge accepted. I?m on family holiday now, pulled a back muscle showing off to the kids, and applying for investment to help develop the above. PS if anyone would like to help get involved please drop us a line. Here are my introductory notes on each of the four points, specifically with regard what to build: Package Manager Trevor?s Levure framework, seems a good starting point. I independently developed a similarly structured set of tools, which complements Levure (same folder structure) - so it seems natural to modify my tools a bit to enable them to work with Levure. However this is not exactly a package manager. I?ve explored the idea of using an existing package manager, and simply interfacing with it like I currently interface with git and GitHub - using shell and Api commands. Right now I think deno is a better fit with LiveCode but that would need a bit more research before taking the plunge. So in terms of building. I?d like to release my git and GitHub libraries and IDE integration tools and work out the best way to integrate them with a proper package manager by writing and researching options (point 4 - evangelism). Tools and Libraries In terms of building, Id like to release libraries distributed on GitHub and as part using the package manager - however initially basic above. Need to consider whether to change the licence from GPL to MIT in order to fit with Livecode Ltd?s new approach (this relates to Business Model below). In terms of early action - that means organising existing open sourced code based in one place and linking that to the other components. Community Evangelism It?s important to make this fun, and inspiring. I?ve been working on a podcasting environment built using LiveCode community edition - and reaching out to interesting projects and speakers within and outside of the community would be a key party of that. To make this interesting enough to developers and an audience outside of the existing community, my focus would be on Open Language and the history (and future) of literate programming language. There is a great deal of free culture (ccby4.0) licensed content available and linking this to the existing LiveCode Dictionary in a more accessible form of documentation can provide a valuable resource that can help build an active community. So in terms of doing and making - I?ve reached out to a couple of communities to help with this ?documentation project? around literate languages, and well? we?ll see where the interest goes. The documentation will be published to the three ?wiki? communities - federated wiki, TiddlyWiki and Massive Wiki as json and markdown files that each community can contribute too. JavaScript will be a significant part of this I suspect. Business Model This aspect is one of the most interesting. There is currently a lot if change and opportunity in new business models around code and language design. I believe we should discuss these. Seek investment and apply for funding. I would love to see an independent community effort to create an Open Language Foundation that would help finance the ongoing development of Open Language. An open rather than closed discussion of these possibilities I would see best done as part of the podcast / evangelism. I hope some of these ideas appeal, to members of the list here. I?m personally committed to this path as I work on a new literate language, and had been developing much of the above to start by November this year anyway - so it seems a waste more to release. ?? ??Schedule a call with me On 6 Sep 2021, 12:22 +0100, Andre Garzia via use-livecode , wrote: > Don?t know how many people here remember that they tried that approach with Dreamcard. I really like it, but in the end it didn?t work for the company. I see many members here in the list saying ?what should be done?, ?what would have worked?, and I wanted to remember every one that while speculation is fun and a healthy practice, it is not necessarily a representation of truth. We don?t know what could have worked, very few people here know the day to day managing of LiveCode Ltd to judge what are their best options. What people here can do is lobby from the user?s point of view, and yet I see a ton of people ?playing CEO with these emails?, that is not productive IMHO. > > Let?s take a step back for a second and realise as a community we lack many things that other programming language communities have. We do have a very healthy mailing list, forum, and occasional conference. We?re all friends, and many of us have known each other for decades. Those are things that many, if not most, programming language communities do not have. And yet we have not fostered many of the ancillary things that most communities do. > > * We have very few open source projects in the community, and the ones we have have very few contributors. > * We have not build anything like a package manager to help us share code around. The IDE built-in extension store, and code sharing features are extremely simple. > * We don?t have an ecosystem of tools and libraries around. We have some tools and some libraries. > * We don?t have many people writing blogs, making videos, writing books, and fostering the community. > * There are very few services and companies besides LiveCode Ltd offering products to the community. > > > All items mentioned above are important regardless if LiveCode Community Edition is around or not. Without those things, it is very hard for any FOSS initiative to blossom. Without those things, it is very hard to make a programming language community feel vibrant and alive. We had eight years of LC Community Edition, and as a community we haven?t really cared to nurture it. Very few people contributed patches. We all loved having it, we were just not putting enough care into it. And that is how FOSS dies. > > What is most important is that the Community Edition was not the on-ramp path to attract new users and then lead them towards a commercial license. What happened was the opposite, Community users stayed with the Community Edition and many paying users migrated to the FOSS offer. If the business model of LC was different, if they had structured it all differently, maybe it could have worked, but that is just speculation, we don?t know it might have failed in such manner that LC Ltd would be dead. > > What I do know, and I know quite a lot about programming language communities, is that without more than just a mailing list and forum, you can?t have a vibrant community. Without a community that feels engaging and alive, you don?t get new users. > > I?m happy paying for my license because I can see the value LC provides me, and how my money directly affects their ability to output quality stuff. I love FOSS, but I?d rather have a healthy LC Ltd around with the resources to keep building amazing goodies. We as a community can build all the cool stuff around the proprietary language, there is a ton of things we could have that would make this a more lively place. > > The question is, who here wants to build stuff? > > A > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Mon Sep 6 10:08:15 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 15:08:15 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> Message-ID: The direction is broadly the one we are following, however we are always open to tweaking things. With regard to the conversation on free starter kit/ non-standalone building etc, I'll copy what I said on the forums: We have dabbled with a number of low cost /entry level offerings in the past. There used to be a starter kit that allowed only a certain number of lines of code per object. We had non-standalone building products e.g. DreamCard/revMedia. None of these models have worked well for a long list of reasons - indeed they caused huge issues for us. This problem is much harder to solve than you might think. Will we continue to refine our entry level offering? Yes definitely. Specific suggestions in this area are welcome, particularly directly to me rather than on here. A number of you quite successfully outlined a number of the problem we had with these various models in the past. I'm not going to go into it further, but thanks to those that contributed. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 04/09/2021, 17:48, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" wrote: David, thats an interesting model to bring up. I wonder how much of this new direction is considered to be etched in stone, and how much is up for tweaking still. Very happy to see signs that the team is listening to all the feedback. On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 10:37 AM David Bovill via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > The clearest example of a free-forever development licence which you pay > for when you wish to release your app is obviously Unity 3D. I remember > when this project was a small developer community supported by a company > and community of keen early adopters. I asked then why Livecode Ltd didn?t > adopt a model close to that - sure there are differences between the game > market and Livecode?s market but still? > > So the question here is why not do the same here - keep a free-to-develop > ?trial version? without the compilation framework and tools. I?m curious to > the reasoning. The cynic in me would say that the assumption is that there > are too few developers in this (non-game) market who would need the > compilation / stand-alone-builder functions - so while game developers and > companies might pay for commercial Unity 3D licenses - that is not true for > Livecode developers? I don?t / like / buy that argument - so I would love > to here good reasons or not adopting a Unity 3D style licensing model? > > ? Schedule a call with me > On 3 Sep 2021, 15:07 +0100, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > What I liked about your email to me Tom was that it was extremely > specific. You had just a handful of issues you considered absolutely key > and offered to Zoom to show that to me. I look forward to scheduling that > once I finish getting unburried __ > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > On 02/09/2021, 22:59, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via > use-livecode" use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Lagi, > > > > I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 > > points needing to be addressed. > > > > Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. > > > > Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the > > platform? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > > > something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in > the > > > way > > > so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > > > > > > You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, > > > and by the time they answer > > > you get cheesed off and remove the program. > > > > > > The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 > months > > > (whichever comes first). > > > > > > This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without > exiting > > > for 6 months but it times out anyway. > > > Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" > twice so > > > it will last 30 days. > > > > > > This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it > without > > > rushing. > > > > > > The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > > > customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps > those > > > who want to give it a good try. > > > > > > You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK > > > button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > > > brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > > > > > > But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running > on a > > > 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > > > treacle. > > > > > > If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in > less > > > than 30 minutes. > > > > > > You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" > to > > > schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > > > > > > It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - > and > > > some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > > > student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid > idea > > > of the lot so far) > > > > > > > > > Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > > > stupid and not workable suggestions?. > > > > > > Lagi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well > give a > > > > longer trial a shot at some point. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > > > On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > > > > use-livecode" > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > True, true. > > > > > > > > There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack around > > > > but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > > > > programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > > > > supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > > > would > > > > not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an > option. > > > > > > > > Ralph DiMola > > > > IT Director > > > > Evergreen Information Services > > > > rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On > > > > Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > > > > To: How to use LiveCode > > > > Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > > > > Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > > > Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > > > > non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > > > > download that. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > > > > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > > > > > > > On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael Kristensen > > > > via use-livecode" of > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi there > > > > > > > > I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > > > > > > > > That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > > subscription preferences: > > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > KIndest Regards Lagi > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tom Glod > > Founder & Developer > > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > > Mobile:647.562.9411 > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kevin at livecode.com Mon Sep 6 10:14:18 2021 From: kevin at livecode.com (Kevin Miller) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 15:14:18 +0100 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in there but it has the issues you list. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Develop Yourself ?On 06/09/2021, 14:11, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via use-livecode" wrote: In the main thread, I mentioned that I found revOnline (aka "Sample Stacks"), but didn't say how or why. Here the answer to that ... It has: - no differentiation between 'libraries' and 'examples' - it has no support for script-only stacks, which is surely the way most libraries will be done nowadays. - a left hand scrolling box with ~90 'categories', in no particular order, no grouping - grid vs list view - list shows you a list, which is basically the same as a 1-wide grid rather than 2-wide, plus a larger view of some random other item (OK, it's not random - it simply doesn't update when it should) - updates when you click on the picture - but gives no cursor hint that you can do that - a drop-down list for sort order - which isn't sized adequately when you first open revonline - a 'search' box which must search something, but I don't know what. There is a sample stack called "Compare stack scripts", and which is tagged as "compare" - but isn't found if you search for "compare". - and I usually find things via "browser + google" (or similar) and the stuff in samples stacks isn't visible that way. Hmmmm - maybe I've just found my next project :-) Alex. _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From thatkeith at mac.com Mon Sep 6 10:40:35 2021 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:40:35 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <171F4F97-59D8-4FAB-A1E7-44E79DCB9778@mac.com> > On Sep 6, 2021, at 12:22 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > > I?m happy paying for my license because I can see the value LC provides me, and how my money directly affects their ability to output quality stuff. I love FOSS, but I?d rather have a healthy LC Ltd around with the resources to keep building amazing goodies. As the meme goes: This! This is bottom line stuff: the health of the company is paramount. If that fails we all lose. k From bdrunrev at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 11:03:20 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 16:03:20 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 3:08 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > We have dabbled with a number of low cost /entry level offerings in the > past. There used to be a starter kit that allowed only a certain number of > lines of code per object. We had non-standalone building products e.g. > DreamCard/revMedia. None of these models have worked well for a long list > of reasons - indeed they caused huge issues for us. This problem is much > harder to solve than you might think. Will we continue to refine our entry > level offering? Yes definitely. Specific suggestions in this area are > welcome, particularly directly to me rather than on here. > Those of us who've been around since the days of Metacard knew this. It was precisely why I haven't chimed in with "what LC should do", because I know they've been prepared to evaluate so many different approaches. Many years ago the Ambassador from Fourthworld said: "it's their company to run, I concentrate on running my business". I tried weeks ago saying that to whiners on the forum, but it made no difference. Even after Kevin posted the remarks below days ago, they are still playing CEO (as Andre so pithily puts it). To those who were repeatedly whining I pointed out: we don't have the data that LC Ltd has, they know what has worked/failed, they know what marketing has worked/failed; and they have more interest in the success of LC than any of us customers have, so we should respect that and support them in it. Some of the whiners won't listen to reason. I got to the point where I gave up trying to debate these issues, for no sooner had I reasoned why some claim they'd made was wrong and a week later they were back making the same claim. It is annoying to see people who've never sold so much as a piece of fruit constantly running down the company whose products they use. LC is a very unusual development tool, virtually in a class of its own. Communicating this uniqueness (and why the unique properties are so important) to novices and even very experienced developers is a challenge. With Xojo or B4X you can say "this is a cross-platform relative of Visual Basic", and people who've had even a little programming experience in the past 30 years will understand what they are dealing with. These days I'd guess that 95% of Apple users don't even know the meaning of "Hypercard" or "Applescript". There's simply no frame of reference. Twenty years ago I gave a programming colleague a copy of The Hypercard Book and the Metacard starter kit. With book in hand she said she couldn't get her head around Metacard and gave up (and she'd been using RAD tools for a decade). I got her to try Revolution a year or two later, and she still couldn't understand it. She ended up becoming a Filemaker developer. I've come to the conclusion that the only option is videos that demonstrate apps being constructed, this might at least appeal at a superficial level. I can't think of another way to start to indicate what the tool is like. I think this might be worth some investment. In fact, in a discussion recently I cited the idea of a high quality video showing Andre's calculator example. I think I wrote to Heather about this some weeks ago. Regards, Bernard From iphonelagi at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 14:07:53 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 19:07:53 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> Message-ID: Hi Bernard, I could be called one of the whiners but I have paid my indy licence since the kickstarter and the business Upgrade (until a year ago - Incase I needed it - I didnt). My biggest "whine" is not the ending of the open source initiative - it's the fact that OUR biggest competitors (XOJO and B4X) have non expiring licences and at least a non time limited "trial" version. B4X went open source not too long ago and only charges for the IOS version and a nice donate $10, $20, $40, $100 on each page. No people can't be bothered to get in-touch to pay unless some itch was just scratched - Have sent money for free stuff that I have used only once when they got me out of a sticky situation.. I use paypal whenever I can so I don't have to get involved with entering CVS or other "screening" make it easy and people will pay - "Don't make me think". Calling people parasites because they want the open source to continue (but with better differentiation) is not constructive. I think they should have open sourced the Linux , Windows and NOT the mobile and only allowed sqlite in the open source versions. You can do everything but when you want to get serious you have to pay. If the Mobile was (of teh top of my head) priced like Xojo and the "lite" version two without expiring so it is in livecodes interests to add value yearly rather than fix old or regressive bugs then people would renew yearly if there was a discount for an unbroken subscription. The starter system is easy (very easy) The full lite version (windows, Mac or Linux) with a limited binary size - big enough for kids and schools to write useful programs but not so you could write a full sales purchase nominal ledger (see BBC Basic for windows) You could have not a nag screen but a text link in the bottom right corner with a link to a page saying 50% discount (or whatever) for first year. The suggestion Kevin gave that people would share stacks to run ignores the fact that somebody wants the banana (the App/stack) and must install the Gorilla (2G installer). Anybody who would bother is the type who doesn't value their time so isn't going to buy anything however cheap. The future is the kids and the only way of capturing them is to make it easy for them to send out a link to a program they wrote to friends and family to show off what they did. Make the binary big enough so that a side scroller can be written but such that they would have to balance internal and external graphics. A arter system does can be limited to 1 printer, output to 1 pdf file per session/ run / 18-20MB windows binary (at least it should be able to run many of the programs written as games on the samples site) But the biggest "limitation" and the best advert is the link to livecode on the screen for a gui project and a 3 to 5 second popup for a console type program. The biggest error livecode has made all these years is not creating a "working" storefront that doesn't look like it has been totally given up on. Look at the addons created for XOJO - and XOJO makes money on those https://xojo.com/store/ https://www.monkeybreadsoftware.de/ I still prefer livecode for a lot of reasons but I could easily jump ship (as I have non expiring licenses for both of these ) two of which I purchased this year - just because. Regards lagi On Mon, 6 Sept 2021 at 16:05, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 3:08 PM Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > We have dabbled with a number of low cost /entry level offerings in the > > past. There used to be a starter kit that allowed only a certain number > of > > lines of code per object. We had non-standalone building products e.g. > > DreamCard/revMedia. None of these models have worked well for a long list > > of reasons - indeed they caused huge issues for us. This problem is much > > harder to solve than you might think. Will we continue to refine our > entry > > level offering? Yes definitely. Specific suggestions in this area are > > welcome, particularly directly to me rather than on here. > > > > Those of us who've been around since the days of Metacard knew this. It was > precisely why I haven't chimed in with "what LC should do", because I know > they've been prepared to evaluate so many different approaches. Many years > ago the Ambassador from Fourthworld said: "it's their company to run, I > concentrate on running my business". I tried weeks ago saying that to > whiners on the forum, but it made no difference. Even after Kevin posted > the remarks below days ago, they are still playing CEO (as Andre so pithily > puts it). > > To those who were repeatedly whining I pointed out: we don't have the data > that LC Ltd has, they know what has worked/failed, they know what marketing > has worked/failed; and they have more interest in the success of LC than > any of us customers have, so we should respect that and support them in it. > > Some of the whiners won't listen to reason. I got to the point where I gave > up trying to debate these issues, for no sooner had I reasoned why some > claim they'd made was wrong and a week later they were back making the same > claim. It is annoying to see people who've never sold so much as a piece > of fruit constantly running down the company whose products they use. > > LC is a very unusual development tool, virtually in a class of its own. > Communicating this uniqueness (and why the unique properties are so > important) to novices and even very experienced developers is a challenge. > With Xojo or B4X you can say "this is a cross-platform relative of Visual > Basic", and people who've had even a little programming experience in the > past 30 years will understand what they are dealing with. These days I'd > guess that 95% of Apple users don't even know the meaning of "Hypercard" or > "Applescript". There's simply no frame of reference. Twenty years ago I > gave a programming colleague a copy of The Hypercard Book and the Metacard > starter kit. With book in hand she said she couldn't get her head around > Metacard and gave up (and she'd been using RAD tools for a decade). I got > her to try Revolution a year or two later, and she still couldn't > understand it. She ended up becoming a Filemaker developer. I've come to > the conclusion that the only option is videos that demonstrate apps being > constructed, this might at least appeal at a superficial level. I can't > think of another way to start to indicate what the tool is like. I think > this might be worth some investment. In fact, in a discussion recently I > cited the idea of a high quality video showing Andre's calculator example. > I think I wrote to Heather about this some weeks ago. > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From alex at tweedly.net Mon Sep 6 14:53:54 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 19:53:54 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> Message-ID: <4e41722b-65ed-fc0d-3200-9d6ed6ff0cc5@tweedly.net> On 06/09/2021 19:07, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote: > The biggest error livecode has made all these years is not creating a > "working" storefront that doesn't look like it has been totally given up on. Not sure that's the "biggest" - but yes, I agree it looks unloved. > Look at the addons created for XOJO - and XOJO makes money on those > > > https://xojo.com/store/ > https://www.monkeybreadsoftware.de/ I see a lot of add-ons (for an awful lot of money) for things that come built-in with Livecode. (tongue in cheek) Maybe LCLtd should have the same add-ons page as Xojo, but each of them says ?? "$0?? already included" Alex. From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org Mon Sep 6 18:16:58 2021 From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:16:58 -0700 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <4e41722b-65ed-fc0d-3200-9d6ed6ff0cc5@tweedly.net> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> <4e41722b-65ed-fc0d-3200-9d6ed6ff0cc5@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <0D4290B7-4B59-4D4D-B29B-5AAD86559892@earthlearningsolutions.org> Folks: I?ve been following this thread and have a few thoughts I decided to share. Interestingly, I don?t see Android support for XOJO. Hmm?. In my case (I have a Commercial license), I am really happy that version 10 of LC will be improving the web software. I?ve been thinking about diving into that realm, but have a couple of projects I?m pecking away at, for now. I also like the idea of improving the access and documentation of code libraries. Seems odd that audio recording is still not supported on Apple OS?s. I?ve programmed in several languages, including Fortran, Pascal, Basic, Hypercard and Lingo (maybe others I?ve forgotten about). For me, the ?English Language? coding claim is over-sold (?put 3 into x? vs "x=3? doesn?t thrill me either way). Once I get beyond the ?Hello World? part of LC, it goes well beyond English language. If thens, Switch, for next, global, arrays, etc are common in all languages. To do anything beyond elementary requires digging into the docs. However, the multi-platform, iOS, Android capabilities and the fabulous way interface items (buttons, fields, etc) are easily built, is huge. I also appreciate that the app building procedures have gotten a bit more straightforward, with community help. I love that I can load an iOS app directly onto my phone for testing. I use Livecode for my personal projects and one that is pretty big that I give away for free. It?s one of my hobbies and a way to, in a small way, pay back for the significant money I received from the National Science Foundation to develop educational software and strategies during my pre-retirement years. I?m happy to pay for my perpetual commercial license. I?m interested in education. I?d love to see a well documented framework that can be built on, that connects livecode projects to course management systems and has options that can be included to perform basic classroom tasks. Education would be the focus. Best to all livecoders, Bill Prothero > On Sep 6, 2021, at 11:53 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > > On 06/09/2021 19:07, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote: >> The biggest error livecode has made all these years is not creating a >> "working" storefront that doesn't look like it has been totally given up on. > Not sure that's the "biggest" - but yes, I agree it looks unloved. >> Look at the addons created for XOJO - and XOJO makes money on those >> >> >> https://xojo.com/store/ >> https://www.monkeybreadsoftware.de/ > > I see a lot of add-ons (for an awful lot of money) for things that come built-in with Livecode. > > (tongue in cheek) Maybe LCLtd should have the same add-ons page as Xojo, but each of them says > > "$0 already included" > > Alex. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode William A. Prothero, Ph.D. University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus) Santa Barbara, CA. 93105 http://earthlearningsolutions.org/ From bdrunrev at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 18:49:43 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 23:49:43 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> Message-ID: Actually I wasn't particularly addressing you. For one thing, I'll wager you've got hundreds of posts on the Forum. On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:09 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > My biggest "whine" is not the ending of the open source initiative - it's > the fact that OUR biggest competitors (XOJO and B4X) have non expiring > licences and at least a non time limited "trial" version. > > Xojo and B4X are not my competitors. I am not LC Ltd. If you think these technologies are so interchangeable I don't know why you're persisting with the one that runs "like treacle". I don't have a license for either of those Basics. And if you see them as "our competitors", why fund the competition. Very strange IMO. LC fits into my philosophy of software design at a specific location (I have never even tried to run it inside a webserver, there are better technologies for that). Your biggest whine is that the IDE "runs like treacle", even on beefy hardware. I asked for evidence of this, because in 20 years on non-beefy hardware I've never seen it. I'm still waiting to see what problem you've got. No-one else appears to recognize your complaint. > Calling people parasites because they want the open source to continue (but > with better differentiation) is not constructive. > People who wanted open source to continue had 8 years of opportunities. I used to muse every time Panos sent out an email with "easy fixes to the documentation" .... hmm, how many of those who contribute nothing financial to this project can even be bothered to spend some time fixing some documentation. Clearly most people wanted open source so they could spend their time and money on other things than supporting the technology with either finance or money. Within a couple of months of InterBase opening their source code and entirely new database project was born. Not so with Livecode. What word do you use for people who take and take for 8 years then have a hissy fit when they are told they aren't getting any more freebies because their freebies have just been a drain on resources. The starter system is easy (very easy). > LC is the business of LC Ltd. It's not your business. It's not my business. Please feel free to look back over my posts in the last 20 years to see where I've told them how to run their business. The one time I did contact Heather, was to draw her attention to one of the whining threads on the Forum, and to pull from it a trio of suggestions for improvement. But I did this in private rather than create lots of public whining with which to put off potential/actual users. > The future is the kids and the only way of capturing them is to make it > easy for them to send out a link to a program they wrote to friends and > family to show off what they did. > I very much doubt this. There are dozens of less impressive technologies than LC for kids to learn. "Worse is better", and all that. IMO the idea that we need to "think of the children" is a myth. I've seen this topic of Livecode and Education discussed for 20 years. As there are some on this list who have been around even longer than I, it seems like we should have an answer to this question: how many people have you encountered here or on the Forum who learned about LC through formal schooling (school or university) and are using it in later life? In my case it is zero. I cannot recollect anyone on this mailing list or on the Forum who has stated that this was their introduction to Livecode. If it turns out that there is no such person, then there's little point in LC Ltd worrying about the idea that this is a channel that brings in new long-term users (as those on the Forum claim). The only reason for providing any version aimed at those in education should be the money such a thing would bring in as an end in itself. > The biggest error livecode has made all these years is not creating a > "working" storefront that doesn't look like it has been totally given up > on. > *De gustibus non est disputandum. *I think there's very, very little wrong with Livecode.com. What is it that you have tried to do with their website that you couldn't do? Maybe you don't like the font, or the text, or the graphics, or whatever. But such generic criticism is of no help and is just barking at the moon. IMO the most important thing for them to add to the website is a few short (hi-res) videos showing some apps being developed in LC. That was one of the few *specific and constructive points* I made (in private) to Heather. Regards, Bernard From iphonelagi at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 19:12:25 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 00:12:25 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: <4e41722b-65ed-fc0d-3200-9d6ed6ff0cc5@tweedly.net> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> <4e41722b-65ed-fc0d-3200-9d6ed6ff0cc5@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Actually their link is not correct - press on the extras icon - Monkeybread does some awesome addons and keeps them upto date. Some are included put some go way past both the builtin XOJO and LC "widgets" Another company's software I used for visual Foxpro and Delphi over the years was https://www.chilkatsoft.com/ Look at all the languages they support and livecode isn't on there - they still support Foxpro which hasn't been developed for 15 years. ASP, C, C++, C++ Builder, C#, DataFlex, dBase, Delphi, Electron, Excel, FoxPro, Java, Mono, Node.js, Objective-C, Perl, PHP, PowerBuilder, PowerShell, PureBasic, Python, Ruby, SQL, Swift, Tcl, VB.NET, VB6, VBScript, Xbase++, xHarbour, Xojo The question is why Livecode isn't there? Lagi On Mon, 6 Sept 2021 at 19:54, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > On 06/09/2021 19:07, Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote: > > The biggest error livecode has made all these years is not creating a > > "working" storefront that doesn't look like it has been totally given up > on. > Not sure that's the "biggest" - but yes, I agree it looks unloved. > > Look at the addons created for XOJO - and XOJO makes money on those > > > > > > https://xojo.com/store/ > > https://www.monkeybreadsoftware.de/ > > I see a lot of add-ons (for an awful lot of money) for things that come > built-in with Livecode. > > (tongue in cheek) Maybe LCLtd should have the same add-ons page as Xojo, > but each of them says > > "$0 already included" > > Alex. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From bdrunrev at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 03:33:56 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:33:56 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> <4e41722b-65ed-fc0d-3200-9d6ed6ff0cc5@tweedly.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:13 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Another company's software I used for visual Foxpro and Delphi over the > years was > > https://www.chilkatsoft.com/ > > Look at all the languages they support and livecode isn't on there [...] > VB.NET, VB6, VBScript, Xbase++, xHarbour, Xojo > > The question is why Livecode isn't there? > > Lagi > The question is: have YOU lobbied chilkat to build an interface for Livecode? I did. I got no reply. But when I bought my chilkat license (some years before I lobbied them) something went wrong with the payment (my bank cancelled the payment as "suspicious"). I got the vilest email from a company I've ever had, accusing me of fraud and telling me how the developer would get his own back. His response is seared into my memory (I excused his awful behaviour by telling myself "hmm he must have had a significant number of people ripping him off with this software"). Despite his vile email, I arranged for payment with a different credit card. But when I didn't get a response from him re Livecode I decided I'd been too nice in excusing his bad behaviour. By contrast, every email I've ever sent to LC Ltd has resulted in a prompt and courteous reply. Perhaps if you spent as much time lobbying Chilkat as you spend denigrating LC Ltd you might find LC among the software supported by Chilkat? I doubt the developer of Chilkat would allow you on his forum to repeatedly denigrate him and his software, criticising his company for supporting Filemaker than implementing something you want. Once again, if "the opensource community", supposedly "the largest demographic", are not at least using their time to lobby e.g. Chilkat to provide a Livecode interface, then are they beneficial or are they just a drain? To date the only Livecode user we know who spent time to lobby Chilkat is also one of those who is not a free-loader but one who has been a license-payer for decades. What are the scores/hundreds of freeloaders doing with their time? Regards, Bernard From heather at livecode.com Tue Sep 7 05:08:35 2021 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:08:35 +0100 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <7c034791-c10f-4991-95d5-0196b335a9fb@Spark> <4e41722b-65ed-fc0d-3200-9d6ed6ff0cc5@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Folks, Thank you for all your input on this subject. I think everyone has now had an opportunity to express opinions, discuss, and understand the changes. As Kevin has said previously, if you have constructive ideas on how to improve our new model, please do send them to him direct. Naturally people here have strong feelings about LiveCode and the direction it should take in the future. I would beg that we remain polite, helpful and constructive in expressing such opinions. I think everything that needs to be said has now been said. I believe it is now time to return to the purpose of this list, supporting each other in using LiveCode. Warmest regards to all, Heather Your friendly local listmom. Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 7 Sep 2021, at 08:33, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:13 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> >> Another company's software I used for visual Foxpro and Delphi over the >> years was >> >> https://www.chilkatsoft.com/ >> >> Look at all the languages they support and livecode isn't on there [...] >> VB.NET, VB6, VBScript, Xbase++, xHarbour, Xojo >> >> The question is why Livecode isn't there? >> >> Lagi >> > > The question is: have YOU lobbied chilkat to build an interface for > Livecode? I did. I got no reply. > > But when I bought my chilkat license (some years before I lobbied them) > something went wrong with the payment (my bank cancelled the payment as > "suspicious"). I got the vilest email from a company I've ever had, > accusing me of fraud and telling me how the developer would get his own > back. His response is seared into my memory (I excused his awful behaviour > by telling myself "hmm he must have had a significant number of people > ripping him off with this software"). Despite his vile email, I arranged > for payment with a different credit card. But when I didn't get a response > from him re Livecode I decided I'd been too nice in excusing his bad > behaviour. By contrast, every email I've ever sent to LC Ltd has resulted > in a prompt and courteous reply. > > Perhaps if you spent as much time lobbying Chilkat as you spend denigrating > LC Ltd you might find LC among the software supported by Chilkat? I doubt > the developer of Chilkat would allow you on his forum to repeatedly > denigrate him and his software, criticising his company for supporting > Filemaker than implementing something you want. > > Once again, if "the opensource community", supposedly "the largest > demographic", are not at least using their time to lobby e.g. Chilkat to > provide a Livecode interface, then are they beneficial or are they just a > drain? To date the only Livecode user we know who spent time to lobby > Chilkat is also one of those who is not a free-loader but one who has been > a license-payer for decades. What are the scores/hundreds of freeloaders > doing with their time? > > Regards, Bernard > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Tue Sep 7 12:14:17 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:14:17 +0000 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> Message-ID: It's worse than the unicode text issue. Saving stacks is from my setup 7 to 8 times slower in Windows than on a Mac, and I have tried numerous Windows configurations from bare metal to VMWare servers running on a robust host. In discussions in the past, it seems there isn't a lot Livecode can do about it. The issues are with Windows itself. At least that was the upshot of the discussions. Bob S > On Sep 3, 2021, at 06:56 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: > > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't occur to me that it was just speed. > > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to be something platform specific. > > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7. > > Ben From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Tue Sep 7 12:22:20 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:22:20 +0000 Subject: Text encoding: summary of results and times. In-Reply-To: <2632d3b3-e851-96ee-3352-fd8c783f3c74@tweedly.net> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <92653c1d-3bae-7777-62c5-69d0d0fd45f5@tweedly.net> <2632d3b3-e851-96ee-3352-fd8c783f3c74@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <2454C051-64DB-4B23-A04D-9D9E38D20B62@iotecdigital.com> This makes sense to me (I think) because if I am not mistaken, UTF16 is Unicode, and UTF8 is simple ASCII. The slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precicely the support for Unicode text. Someone will correct me if I am wrong about this. As a hobbyist, I try and stay away from localization issues. But I am interested in the idea that all text incoming should be text decoded and outgoing the inverse. (Did I get that right??) Bob S > On Sep 3, 2021, at 17:29 , Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > I went back and re-did the tests, checking on the results. > > The file *is* UTF8, so I need to textDecode() it; if I don't, the result are simply wrong, and so the times are irrelevant. > > 1. Once it has been textDecoded(), i.e. is in internal format, and I run my algorithm it gets the correct results, taking 115.1 seconds. > > 2. BUT, if just before the algorithm is run, I do a textEncode(tStr, "UTF8") , it gets the correct results (identical to the above), but in only 3.3 seconds. > > The code, in a zip file containing the test stack, SpellCheck Library, and the 'bible' and "war&peace" sample textfiles, can be downloaded from > > https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/SpellLib.gz > > if anyone wants to look at it. > > Alex. > > > > On 03/09/2021 13:38, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> On 03/09/2021 11:07, David V Glasgow via use-livecode wrote: >> >>> Alex states that put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText speeds replace up, but David B says LC internal format is UTF16. Doesn?t the 8 vs 16 difference matter? Or matters less than other encodings? >> >> I would regard that timing comparison with much suspicion. I was textEncoding() it inappropriately - I had just read it in from a file, so I *should* have been textDecoding() it. Therefore it is unclear whether the times I was seeing then are meaningful. >> >> Alex. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Tue Sep 7 12:26:27 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:26:27 +0000 Subject: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> Message-ID: Two words: Unicode. Bob S > On Sep 2, 2021, at 15:20 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote: > > Sorry it's worse than I thought.It's 10th generation with 4 cores and 8 > logical processors. > > Appleworks was blazingly fast on my 64K 1Mhz Apple 2 and so was Borland > Turbo Pascal on my Microsoft Z80 card on said machine - software is going > backwards speed wise. > > Lagi > > On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 23:00, Tom Glod via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Lagi, >> >> I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2 >> points needing to be addressed. >> >> Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP. >> >> Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the >> platform? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install >>> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the >>> way >>> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. >>> >>> You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, >>> and by the time they answer >>> you get cheesed off and remove the program. >>> >>> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months >>> (whichever comes first). >>> >>> This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting >>> for 6 months but it times out anyway. >>> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice >> so >>> it will last 30 days. >>> >>> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without >>> rushing. >>> >>> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal >>> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those >>> who want to give it a good try. >>> >>> You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK >>> button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a >>> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). >>> >>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running >> on a >>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like >>> treacle. >>> >>> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in >> less >>> than 30 minutes. >>> >>> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" >> to >>> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. >>> >>> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and >>> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a >>> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid >> idea >>> of the lot so far) >>> >>> >>> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, >>> stupid and not workable suggestions?. >>> >>> Lagi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well >> give a >>>> longer trial a shot at some point. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself >>>> >>>> ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via >>>> use-livecode" >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> True, true. >>>> >>>> There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack >> around >>>> but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a >>>> programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other >>>> supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I >>> would >>>> not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an >> option. >>>> >>>> Ralph DiMola >>>> IT Director >>>> Evergreen Information Services >>>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] >> On >>>> Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM >>>> To: How to use LiveCode >>>> Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen >>>> Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition >>>> >>>> Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free >>>> non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just >>>> download that. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself >>>> >>>> ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael >> Kristensen >>>> via use-livecode" >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi there >>>> >>>> I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community >> Edition >>>> >>>> That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> KIndest Regards Lagi >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> >> >> -- >> Tom Glod >> Founder & Developer >> MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) >> Mobile:647.562.9411 >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > KIndest Regards Lagi > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bdrunrev at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 13:08:09 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:08:09 +0100 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> Message-ID: Without knowing anything other than "the IDE is like treacle" I loaded various stacks in Windows to see what the complaint could possibly be about. 8 seconds for IDE to start - no treacle on opening stacks 8 seconds to open Dictionary - no treacle on searching Dictionary (given it's loading 1000 pages of lightning-fast searchable text, I think 8 seconds isn't too bad). I generally open it once and don't shut it until I close LC. So I created a new stack and pasted 8000 lines of text into the Script Editor. Typing in the Editor then became treacley (but not on OS X). Switching off Edit/Options/live errors removed any speed degradation on typing. Assuming I've correctly identified where the issue is, the issue is not the IDE, the issue is doing something specific with large scripts inside the Script Editor. That may well be the issue that Mark Waddingham was discussing about sorting text. The Script editor doesn't slow down with 100s of lines. As for general weirdness with Windows. When Windows "anti-virus" scam kicks in every day, my laptop stops working (even trying to switch between apps is treacley). This is something MS have made almost impossible to disable (I haven't found a way), and I can't set the priority low. I just have to leave the laptop for an hour and go to do something else. Someone trying to save a file during this scan is likely to experience slow file saves. I've also seen Windows Update taking large amounts of RAM. These things are less noticeable on my Windows desktop. Regards, Bernard On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 5:15 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > It's worse than the unicode text issue. Saving stacks is from my setup 7 > to 8 times slower in Windows than on a Mac, and I have tried numerous > Windows configurations from bare metal to VMWare servers running on a > robust host. In discussions in the past, it seems there isn't a lot > Livecode can do about it. The issues are with Windows itself. At least that > was the upshot of the discussions. > > Bob S > > > > On Sep 3, 2021, at 06:56 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought > this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't > occur to me that it was just speed. > > > > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed > issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been > affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that > I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be > fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to > be something platform specific. > > > > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm > whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems > with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7. > > > > Ben > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From e.beugelaar at me.com Tue Sep 7 13:20:53 2021 From: e.beugelaar at me.com (e.beugelaar at me.com) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:20:53 +0000 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> Message-ID: I hv never had slowdowns with the IDE or else in Windows 10. But my system has 32 Gb internal RAM and I use only NVMe. Fastest i7 too. No problems. Its all about hardware when u develop software. Met vriendelijke groet, Erik Beugelaar ________________________________ From: use-livecode on behalf of Bernard Devlin via use-livecode Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2021 7:08:09 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Bernard Devlin Subject: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) Without knowing anything other than "the IDE is like treacle" I loaded various stacks in Windows to see what the complaint could possibly be about. 8 seconds for IDE to start - no treacle on opening stacks 8 seconds to open Dictionary - no treacle on searching Dictionary (given it's loading 1000 pages of lightning-fast searchable text, I think 8 seconds isn't too bad). I generally open it once and don't shut it until I close LC. So I created a new stack and pasted 8000 lines of text into the Script Editor. Typing in the Editor then became treacley (but not on OS X). Switching off Edit/Options/live errors removed any speed degradation on typing. Assuming I've correctly identified where the issue is, the issue is not the IDE, the issue is doing something specific with large scripts inside the Script Editor. That may well be the issue that Mark Waddingham was discussing about sorting text. The Script editor doesn't slow down with 100s of lines. As for general weirdness with Windows. When Windows "anti-virus" scam kicks in every day, my laptop stops working (even trying to switch between apps is treacley). This is something MS have made almost impossible to disable (I haven't found a way), and I can't set the priority low. I just have to leave the laptop for an hour and go to do something else. Someone trying to save a file during this scan is likely to experience slow file saves. I've also seen Windows Update taking large amounts of RAM. These things are less noticeable on my Windows desktop. Regards, Bernard On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 5:15 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > It's worse than the unicode text issue. Saving stacks is from my setup 7 > to 8 times slower in Windows than on a Mac, and I have tried numerous > Windows configurations from bare metal to VMWare servers running on a > robust host. In discussions in the past, it seems there isn't a lot > Livecode can do about it. The issues are with Windows itself. At least that > was the upshot of the discussions. > > Bob S > > > > On Sep 3, 2021, at 06:56 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought > this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't > occur to me that it was just speed. > > > > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed > issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been > affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that > I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be > fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to > be something platform specific. > > > > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm > whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems > with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7. > > > > Ben > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From kee.nethery at elloco.com Tue Sep 7 14:35:31 2021 From: kee.nethery at elloco.com (kee nethery) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:35:31 -0700 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: <15B9DB60-31E7-41C9-B66B-68D9340FA981@gmail.com> References: <15B9DB60-31E7-41C9-B66B-68D9340FA981@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 2, 2021, at 1:48 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode wrote: > > HI Kee, > > You do know the schools license gives you complete access to all 7 platforms and permanent standalones for $25 a seat per year and the apps are non-expiring? Did not know that. Kee From andre at andregarzia.com Tue Sep 7 15:55:24 2021 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:55:24 +0100 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> Message-ID: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to switch back to a mac... > On 7 Sep 2021, at 09:00, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: > > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't occur to me that it was just speed. > > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to be something platform specific. > > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7. > > Ben > > On 03/09/2021 03:05, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi Lagi, >> I have the LC IDE running on a remote Windows Server with 1 core (2Ghz) and >> 2GB ram. It struggles at times but is still usable (truly amazingly). >> Otherwise, I run it on Windows through Parallels Desktop with VM 8 cores >> and 8GB on an 8core 32GB Macbook Pro. Saving a stack takes 15 times longer >> in Win compared to the same machine in macOS. Other than the slight lag and >> bugginess of the script editor this is the only slowness I see. Unicode >> slows down some procedures but that is not limited to the IDE. >> I hope you can work out what is slowing it down to treacle speeds for you. >> It sounds a bit odd to me. >> On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 00:16, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>>> >>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a >>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like >>> treacle. >>> << >>> >>> As I don't recognize this experience can you put a video of your experience >>> on the cloud? I don't run on hardware anything like as beefy as you have. >>> The only machine I've got where LC is slow is one where Windows itself is >>> really slow (a 4yo laptop). On my two Apple machines (M1 and Intel, the >>> latter is 5yo) it is not "like treacle", neither is it slow on my i5 >>> Windows machine. >>> >>> It's a bit hard for LC Ltd to identify and fix something if it's only found >>> in some odd cases. >>> >>> Regards, Bernard >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install >>>> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the >>>> way >>>> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. >>>> >>>> You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension, >>>> and by the time they answer >>>> you get cheesed off and remove the program. >>>> >>>> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months >>>> (whichever comes first). >>>> >>>> This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting >>>> for 6 months but it times out anyway. >>>> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice >>> so >>>> it will last 30 days. >>>> >>>> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without >>>> rushing. >>>> >>>> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal >>>> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those >>>> who want to give it a good try. >>>> >>>> You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with an OK >>>> button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a >>>> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). >>>> >>>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running >>> on a >>>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like >>>> treacle. >>>> >>>> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in >>> less >>>> than 30 minutes. >>>> >>>> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" >>> to >>>> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. >>>> >>>> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and >>>> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a >>>> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid >>> idea >>>> of the lot so far) >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, >>>> stupid and not workable suggestions?. >>>> >>>> Lagi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well >>> give a >>>>> longer trial a shot at some point. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Kevin >>>>> >>>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>>>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself >>>>> >>>>> ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via >>>>> use-livecode" >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> True, true. >>>>> >>>>> There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack >>> around >>>>> but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a >>>>> programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other >>>>> supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I >>>> would >>>>> not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an >>> option. >>>>> >>>>> Ralph DiMola >>>>> IT Director >>>>> Evergreen Information Services >>>>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] >>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM >>>>> To: How to use LiveCode >>>>> Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen >>>>> Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free >>>>> non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just >>>>> download that. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Kevin >>>>> >>>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ >>>>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself >>>>> >>>>> ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael >>> Kristensen >>>>> via use-livecode" >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi there >>>>> >>>>> I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community >>> Edition >>>>> >>>>> That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> KIndest Regards Lagi >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Tue Sep 7 16:48:19 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:48:19 +0000 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> Message-ID: Yes, and this is really disconcerting. Not sure how many Mac vs. PC devs there are for LC, but I suspect it's weighed heavily towards Mac. I think in retrospect, it may have been better to retain UTF-8 as an option, that is be able to select unicode or not in an app. But I suspect that would be a lot of bloat in the IDE. Bob S > On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:55 , Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > > to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to switch back to a mac... > >> On 7 Sep 2021, at 09:00, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't occur to me that it was just speed. >> >> I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to be something platform specific. >> >> Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7. >> >> Ben From bleiler at buffalo.edu Tue Sep 7 16:48:47 2021 From: bleiler at buffalo.edu (Timothy Bleiler) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:48:47 +0000 Subject: Standard Plan Pricing Confusion Message-ID: <120C6BFA-4D26-4418-9C79-F04683A0DFAD@buffalo.edu> The pricing for the standard plan looks confusing and inconsistent when first encountered. It?s also further complicated by the "add on" options. There are 2 add ons: email support Pro Package (Device Debugging, code optimization tool, the network layer (tsNet library), iOS accessory access, pdf library). The info box on this still references the Community and Indy licenses which supposedly don?t exist. Hopefully I have this figured out right. If I?m wrong it could reflect poorly on me or the plans ;-) Here?s the rounded-off pricing if you just buy deployment options. After the first platform you can substitute 1 of the 2 add on options for platform in each of these tiers. 1 platform = $300 2 platforms = $500 ($200 more) 3 platforms = $900 ($400 more) 4 platforms = $1000 ($100 more) 5 platforms = $1500 ($500 more) 6 platforms = $1800 ($300 more) All 7 platforms = $2000 ($200 more) Here?s the rounded off per platform/options pricing for each tier. This looks like it makes slightly more sense than when it?s listed the other way. 1 platform = $300 2 platforms = $250 3 platforms = $300 4 platforms = $250 5 platforms = $300 6 platforms = $300 All 7 platforms + the 2 add ons = $222 This issue was brought up previously by Sean Cole. Jacqueline Landman Gay suggested that it might be tied to the popularity of specific platforms. Here?s how she explained it. "The way I figure it, each platform is $300. But since many of us build for the two major ones (Mac and Windows) you get a $100 discount for that bundle. After that it's $300 each except for 4 and 7 platforms, where there's also a discount.? Yes, apparently, but why? The popular desktops/ mobile bundle? Why then are the add ons priced the same? Is there really equivalent value there? Number 7 is obviously discounted for a buy everything tier. That?s OK, I guess. The problem with Jacqueline?s explanation is that it doesn?t matter which platforms or add ons you select, the same pricing pattern persists. I can justify different prices for different platform deployments and different options, but this inconsistent pattern could be hard to explain to prospective users and business accountants to whom we have to justify purchases. Jacqueline may be right about the reasons but these are ?hidden? bundle options based on an assumption of what the user is likely to want. It also can make some combinations that are probably much harder to justify/explain than others. While I can come up with some other explanations for this and a case could be made that it has a lot of flexibility, I wonder if a more transparent pricing/bundling/discount structure might be better. Any chance we can get some clarification on the rationale behind the pricing to help us with our purchasing requests? Tim Bleiler, Ph.D. Instructional Designer, HSIT University at Buffalo From stephen at barncard.com Tue Sep 7 17:02:17 2021 From: stephen at barncard.com (Stephen Barncard) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:02:17 -0700 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> References: <01A9BCD1-596B-4CFB-850B-3D5F90786C75@dsa-net.dk> <15C43B6F-A7D9-4FF1-B286-EEDD3B82E721@livecode.com> <002401d7a00a$0873e890$195bb9b0$@net> <7D565D48-4F42-4D34-BD29-FF2D4DEBF55F@livecode.com> <20977e3f-f0a4-d5c9-cd55-d1f6ec96e249@cogapp.com> <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> Message-ID: Welcome back, Andre! On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:56 Andre Garzia via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me > to switch back to a mac... > > > On 7 Sep 2021, at 09:00, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought > this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't > occur to me that it was just speed. > > > > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed > issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been > affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that > I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be > fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to > be something platform specific. > > > > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm > whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems > with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7. > > > > Ben > > > > On 03/09/2021 03:05, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > >> Hi Lagi, > >> I have the LC IDE running on a remote Windows Server with 1 core (2Ghz) > and > >> 2GB ram. It struggles at times but is still usable (truly amazingly). > >> Otherwise, I run it on Windows through Parallels Desktop with VM 8 cores > >> and 8GB on an 8core 32GB Macbook Pro. Saving a stack takes 15 times > longer > >> in Win compared to the same machine in macOS. Other than the slight lag > and > >> bugginess of the script editor this is the only slowness I see. Unicode > >> slows down some procedures but that is not limited to the IDE. > >> I hope you can work out what is slowing it down to treacle speeds for > you. > >> It sounds a bit odd to me. > >> On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 00:16, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running > on a > >>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs like > >>> treacle. > >>> << > >>> > >>> As I don't recognize this experience can you put a video of your > experience > >>> on the cloud? I don't run on hardware anything like as beefy as you > have. > >>> The only machine I've got where LC is slow is one where Windows itself > is > >>> really slow (a 4yo laptop). On my two Apple machines (M1 and Intel, > the > >>> latter is 5yo) it is not "like treacle", neither is it slow on my i5 > >>> Windows machine. > >>> > >>> It's a bit hard for LC Ltd to identify and fix something if it's only > found > >>> in some odd cases. > >>> > >>> Regards, Bernard > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install > >>>> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in > the > >>>> way > >>>> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out. > >>>> > >>>> You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an > extension, > >>>> and by the time they answer > >>>> you get cheesed off and remove the program. > >>>> > >>>> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 > months > >>>> (whichever comes first). > >>>> > >>>> This stops the clever SOD who decides to keep it running without > exiting > >>>> for 6 months but it times out anyway. > >>>> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" > twice > >>> so > >>>> it will last 30 days. > >>>> > >>>> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it > without > >>>> rushing. > >>>> > >>>> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal > >>>> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps > those > >>>> who want to give it a good try. > >>>> > >>>> You can also put a nag screen at the start of any executable with > an OK > >>>> button link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a > >>>> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?). > >>>> > >>>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running > >>> on a > >>>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7 processor and it STILL runs > like > >>>> treacle. > >>>> > >>>> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in > >>> less > >>>> than 30 minutes. > >>>> > >>>> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away" > >>> to > >>>> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen. > >>>> > >>>> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - > and > >>>> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a > >>>> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid > >>> idea > >>>> of the lot so far) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky, > >>>> stupid and not workable suggestions?. > >>>> > >>>> Lagi > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode < > >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well > >>> give a > >>>>> longer trial a shot at some point. > >>>>> > >>>>> Kind regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Kevin > >>>>> > >>>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > >>>>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself > >>>>> > >>>>> ?On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via > >>>>> use-livecode" >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> True, true. > >>>>> > >>>>> There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack > >>> around > >>>>> but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a > >>>>> programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other > >>>>> supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I > >>>> would > >>>>> not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an > >>> option. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ralph DiMola > >>>>> IT Director > >>>>> Evergreen Information Services > >>>>> rdimola at evergreeninfo.net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com > ] > >>> On > >>>>> Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM > >>>>> To: How to use LiveCode > >>>>> Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen > >>>>> Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free > >>>>> non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just > >>>>> download that. > >>>>> > >>>>> Kind regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Kevin > >>>>> > >>>>> Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > >>>>> LiveCode: Develop Yourself > >>>>> > >>>>> ?On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael > >>> Kristensen > >>>>> via use-livecode" of > >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi there > >>>>> > >>>>> I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding Community > >>> Edition > >>>>> > >>>>> That would be for personal use, and to learn coding. > >>>>> > >>>>> Michael > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> use-livecode mailing list > >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage > your > >>>>> subscription preferences: > >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> use-livecode mailing list > >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>>>> subscription preferences: > >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> use-livecode mailing list > >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>>>> subscription preferences: > >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> use-livecode mailing list > >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>>>> subscription preferences: > >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> KIndest Regards Lagi > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> use-livecode mailing list > >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>>> subscription preferences: > >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>> subscription preferences: > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- -- Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA - mixstream.org From mkoob at rogers.com Tue Sep 7 18:01:47 2021 From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:01:47 -0400 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> Message-ID: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> Hi all. There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the one part of Kevin?s announcement regarding the changes in licensing but nothing that I see on the other major part of the announcement ? the new features coming in LiveCode 10. > On Aug 31, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Kevin Miller CEO wrote: > > The Future > > We do have exciting plans for the future! LiveCode 10 is about to go into the test cycle, with substantial changes and improvements to Web, Media and Camera enhancements, integration of mobile widgets, and some handy new language features. You can read all about this here . https://livecode.com/livecode-10-sneak-peek/ The major features listed on the page above are: Brand New Web Deployment Experience usingWeb Assembly (WASM) - I have no idea what WASM is. There have always been complaints about web deployment in the past. Do you think this will make a difference? M1 Architecture Support - Looking forward to this. I am chomping on the bit to buy a new MacBook Pro with M1 as soon as they come out this fall. Look forward to giving LiveCode 10 a spin on it. Windows Player Media Foundation & Windows Camera Media Foundation - these two features are the ones that I am really waiting for. My app records and plays video using the CameraControl and the Player respectively but the Mac version does so in .mp4 and the Windows version records and plays .wmv. I had been researching different methods of converting from one format to the other when users shared their video projects over the web. Then this was announced rendering that moot! This is a much better solution. I am looking forward to giving the updated player and camera control a good workout on Windows. -One question I have is whether a player can be part of a Web app with the new Web Deployment. To this point I don?t think you could but I have wondered if you could control an HTML5 video player elsewhere on the page outside of the LiveCode HTML5 web app. Having video play directly in the Web app would be a much cleaner solution. I haven?t looked into this in a long time so once LC 10 is out I will do some more research on this. Improved AcceleratedRendering on Mobile - iOS and Android will be updated to use OpenGL3ES internally - I haven?t developed for iOS or Android and don?t know what OpenGL3ES is. What do all you mobile developers think? Mobile Widgets by LiveCode Factory - now acquired by LiveCode Ltd. and will be integrated into LiveCode 10. - again not currently developing for mobile but I understand getting native look, feel and performance has been an oft discussed topic. Hopefully this will resolve some of the issues LiveCode developers have had. New Syntax in 10 Array Literals Constant Expressions Static Switch Optimization Constant folding Tail Expressions - I am just reading them over trying to think of how having these might affect my code and my app. Some promise speed improvements others flexibility in working with arrays and constants. Does these make the language more complex or easier? I am interested in what people have to say about these new features, especially in the areas I don?t have much experience in. Anyway I am excited to see the first DP which is promised in the next couple of weeks. My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of? in terms of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?. So in this case I am hoping she is right and I am wrong and we do get the new DP in a couple of weeks and not a few weeks. :-) Martin Koob From bdrunrev at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 18:21:30 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 23:21:30 +0100 Subject: Standard Plan Pricing Confusion In-Reply-To: <120C6BFA-4D26-4418-9C79-F04683A0DFAD@buffalo.edu> References: <120C6BFA-4D26-4418-9C79-F04683A0DFAD@buffalo.edu> Message-ID: I haven't looked into it as I have nothing to do with education. But doesn't the University plan give you all 7 platforms + additional features for about $950? https://livecode.com/education-plans/ On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 9:50 PM Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > The pricing for the standard plan looks confusing and inconsistent when > first encountered. It?s also further complicated by the "add on" options. > > There are 2 add ons: > email support > Pro Package (Device Debugging, code optimization tool, the network layer > (tsNet library), iOS accessory access, pdf library). The info box on this > still references the Community and Indy licenses which supposedly don?t > exist. > > Hopefully I have this figured out right. If I?m wrong it could reflect > poorly on me or the plans ;-) > Here?s the rounded-off pricing if you just buy deployment options. After > the first platform you can substitute 1 of the 2 add on options for > platform in each of these tiers. > > 1 platform = $300 > 2 platforms = $500 ($200 more) > 3 platforms = $900 ($400 more) > 4 platforms = $1000 ($100 more) > 5 platforms = $1500 ($500 more) > 6 platforms = $1800 ($300 more) > All 7 platforms = $2000 ($200 more) > > Here?s the rounded off per platform/options pricing for each tier. > This looks like it makes slightly more sense than when it?s listed the > other way. > 1 platform = $300 > 2 platforms = $250 > 3 platforms = $300 > 4 platforms = $250 > 5 platforms = $300 > 6 platforms = $300 > All 7 platforms + the 2 add ons = $222 > > This issue was brought up previously by Sean Cole. Jacqueline Landman Gay > suggested that it might be tied to the popularity of specific platforms. > Here?s how she explained it. "The way I figure it, each platform is $300. > But since many of us build for the two major ones (Mac and Windows) you get > a $100 discount for that bundle. After that it's $300 each except for > 4 and 7 platforms, where there's also a discount.? Yes, apparently, but > why? The popular desktops/ mobile bundle? Why then are the add ons priced > the same? Is there really equivalent value there? Number 7 is obviously > discounted for a buy everything tier. That?s OK, I guess. > > The problem with Jacqueline?s explanation is that it doesn?t matter which > platforms or add ons you select, the same pricing pattern persists. I can > justify different prices for different platform deployments and different > options, but this inconsistent pattern could be hard to explain to > prospective users and business accountants to whom we have to justify > purchases. Jacqueline may be right about the reasons but these are ?hidden? > bundle options based on an assumption of what the user is likely to want. > It also can make some combinations that are probably much harder to > justify/explain than others. > > While I can come up with some other explanations for this and a case could > be made that it has a lot of flexibility, I wonder if a more transparent > pricing/bundling/discount structure might be better. > > Any chance we can get some clarification on the rationale behind the > pricing to help us with our purchasing requests? > > > Tim Bleiler, Ph.D. > Instructional Designer, HSIT > University at Buffalo > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Sep 7 18:27:36 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 00:27:36 +0200 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> Message-ID: <53678363-7C9B-4A55-BBE1-E0195E1A3695@m-r-d.de> > Brand New Web Deployment Experience usingWeb Assembly (WASM) > - I have no idea what WASM is. There have always been complaints about web deployment in the past. Do you think this will make a difference? > https://www.qt.io/qt-examples-for-webassembly Overview of supported Browsers and roadmap https://webassembly.org/roadmap/ See some samples created with QT in action, you'll need at least Firefox 91 or Chrome 90 for this. https://www.qt.io/qt-examples-for-webassembly From scott at elementarysoftware.com Tue Sep 7 18:28:20 2021 From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (Scott Morrow) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:28:20 -0700 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> Message-ID: <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> Andre, when you say ?so bad? do you mean the script editor or? ? -- Scott Morrow > On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > > to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to switch back to a mac... From bdrunrev at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 18:35:23 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 23:35:23 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> Message-ID: Hi Martin I'm interested in the web assembly for HTML5. I had actually written two different apps which I would have done as HTML5 but the loading time alone was just to slow. The increased loading speed alone should now make these possible as HTML5. There are still a lot of other things that are difficult to do with the current HTML5 deployment to make it anything like a fat-client deployment. Still, for my purposes it can't even get off the ground without the initial load speed improvement. I am expecting the M1 build to bring about increased performance, but I have no complaints with the current Rosetta speed on M1 (but the 10x faster startup time of M1 Macs over Intel Macs could give us some idea of how much of a speed increase we might see). I like the array literals idea. That's something I've wanted for so, so long. And the constants built from expressions is a nice thing to have. Having named rather than merely positional parameters for handlers would also be something I'd like (Python does a few things right). But these things are basically syntactic sugar. With Switch statements I always try to put the options in order of greatest likelihood first, but that can't always make a difference if conditions follow a more even distribution. Still, it's one less thing to have to think about. But I would hope there are even bigger things coming with version 10 than these. Regards, Bernard On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 11:03 PM Martin Koob via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi all. > > There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the one > part of Kevin?s announcement regarding the changes in licensing but nothing > that I see on the other major part of the announcement ? the new features > coming in LiveCode 10. > > From kee.nethery at elloco.com Tue Sep 7 19:37:34 2021 From: kee.nethery at elloco.com (kee nethery) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:37:34 -0700 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> Message-ID: Still looking for a way to do in-app payments for macOS App Store apps. Thanks for the list of all the new stuff. Kee > On Sep 7, 2021, at 3:01 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: From alex at tweedly.net Tue Sep 7 20:33:21 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 01:33:21 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> Message-ID: <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> On 07/09/2021 23:01, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: > Hi all. > > There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the one part of Kevin?s announcement regarding the changes in licensing but nothing that I see on the other major part of the announcement ? the new features coming in LiveCode 10. Good idea for discussion - but we may be shooting in the dark, until either the DP or another sneak peek. > New Syntax in 10 > Array Literals Not sure I fully understand this one yet. ??? put { "a": "b", "c":"d" } into tVar seems clear - and is explained with an equivalent in existing code. But ???? put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2 isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC doesn't have 'lists'. Is it equivalent to ?? put true into tVar2[1] ?? put true into tVar2[2] ?? put true into tVar2[3]??? ?? Or if not, then what is it equivalent to ? But generally, I like the idea. Though it does just make me want to ask for more :-) Why just constants ? Why can't I say ??? put { myvar: "first", anothervar: tWhatever } into tVar2?? ? > Constant Expressions About time. I trust you can actually do ?? constant Kmin=100, kMax=200, kMid=(kmin+kmax)/2 > Static Switch Optimization Yes - good thing.I have a bunch of code (which I might not want to show in public), where this will make a significant difference. I was worried by the statement that "... recognises cases where all the cases are constant", but realised that you can always cover the other cases by putting them into a separate switch/if-then-else in the 'default' case. > Constant folding I confess I assumed that was already there :-) But I was disappointed to not see my two biggest 'constant' wishes 1. multi-line constants e.g. amongst other ways, Python's put """line 1 line 2 line 3""" into tVar 2. global constants. Most compiled languages will allow an 'include' file which can specify constants, which you can then rely on to be defined properly (and the same) everywhere. So that's probably too much at odds with LC's model - but could be handled by 'protect' global variables (or, I'm sure, another 10 ways that Mark W. could think of). > Tail Expressions I just don't understand this one, so no comment. > Anyway I am excited to see the first DP which is promised in the next couple of weeks. My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of? in terms of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?. So in this case I am hoping she is right and I am wrong and we do get the new DP in a couple of weeks and not a few weeks. :-) That sounds like a 'couple' discussion I wouldn't want to get in the middle of. Even worse than whether a sign on the freeway/motorway saying "xyz next exit" means the immediately coming exit (i.e. 'this exit' or 'next exit'), or the following one. Caused me no end of trouble when I first moved to the US :-) Alex. From richmondmathewson at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 03:07:02 2021 From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:07:02 +0300 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> Message-ID: It does look exciting, but, as usual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating and I am sure, initially at least, there will be a few bits of nutshell left in there for us to jag our teeth on: but that's to be expected, and our job is to report back any nutty bits to LiveCode centre. My thoughts are, as usual, retro, insofar as I hope the syntax changes while being clever will not mean that stacks written WITHOUT those new syntactic features will not be openable and usuable by earlier versions of LiveCode. On 8.09.21 3:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > On 07/09/2021 23:01, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi all. >> >> There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the >> one part of Kevin?s announcement regarding the changes in licensing >> but nothing that I see on the other major part of the announcement ? >> the new features coming in LiveCode 10. > Good idea for discussion - but we may be shooting in the dark, until > either the DP or another sneak peek. >> New Syntax in 10 >> ????Array Literals > > Not sure I fully understand this one yet. > ??? put { "a": "b", "c":"d" } into tVar > seems clear - and is explained with an equivalent in existing code. > > But > ???? put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2 > isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC > doesn't have 'lists'. > > Is it equivalent to > ?? put true into tVar2[1] > ?? put true into tVar2[2] > ?? put true into tVar2[3]??? ?? > > Or if not, then what is it equivalent to ? > > But generally, I like the idea. Though it does just make me want to > ask for more :-) > > Why just constants ? > > Why can't I say > ??? put { myvar: "first", anothervar: tWhatever } into tVar2?? ? > >> ????Constant Expressions > > About time. I trust you can actually do > ?? constant Kmin=100, kMax=200, kMid=(kmin+kmax)/2 > >> ????Static Switch Optimization > > Yes - good thing.I have a bunch of code (which I might not want to > show in public), where this will make a significant difference. I was > worried by the statement that "... recognises cases where all the > cases are constant", but realised that you can always cover the other > cases by putting them into a separate switch/if-then-else in the > 'default' case. > > >> ????Constant folding > > I confess I assumed that was already there :-) > > But I was disappointed to not see my two biggest 'constant' wishes > > 1. multi-line constants e.g. amongst other ways, Python's > > put """line 1 > > line 2 > > line 3""" into tVar > > 2. global constants. Most compiled languages will allow an 'include' > file which can specify constants, which you can then rely on to be > defined properly (and the same) everywhere. So that's probably too > much at odds with LC's model - but could be handled by 'protect' > global variables (or, I'm sure, another 10 ways that Mark W. could > think of). > >> ????Tail Expressions > > I just don't understand this one, so no comment. > >> Anyway I am excited to see the first DP which is promised in the next >> couple of weeks.? My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about >> the term 'couple of? in terms of counting.? I say it means around 2 >> or 3ish.? She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say >> 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?.? So in this case I am hoping she is >> right and I am wrong and we do get the new DP in a couple of weeks >> and not a few weeks. :-) > > That sounds like a 'couple' discussion I wouldn't want to get in the > middle of. Even worse than whether a sign on the freeway/motorway > saying "xyz next exit" means the immediately coming exit (i.e. 'this > exit' or 'next exit'), or the following one. Caused me no end of > trouble when I first moved to the US :-) > > Alex. > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mark at livecode.com Wed Sep 8 03:50:14 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 08:50:14 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> Message-ID: On 2021-09-08 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > But > ???? put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2 > isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC > doesn't have 'lists'. > > Is it equivalent to > ?? put true into tVar2[1] > ?? put true into tVar2[2] > ?? put true into tVar2[3]??? ?? Yes. A sequence in LC is a numerically-keyed array where the keys range from 1...the number of elements. Admittedly they are (currently) still implemented as a 'normal' array internally, but they do have different functionality in `repeat for each element` which iterates in numeric order, and not hash order. > Why can't I say > ??? put { myvar: "first", anothervar: tWhatever } into tVar2?? ? So if one treats array literals as an equivalent to an ordered sequence of put statements (which is the canonical interpretation really!) then there is, in principal, no problem with allowing non-constant expressions for both key and value. Certainly non-constant value expressions are no problem at all, and would be included in the initial implementation... I'm not averse to non-constant key expressions either really, I'm just a little skittish over the resulting reservation of ':' (which is probably fine), and the interplay with variables and unquoted-literals (more in terms of difference that might occur between what the engine thinks something means and what the writer intended). > But I was disappointed to not see my two biggest 'constant' wishes > > 1. multi-line constants e.g. amongst other ways, Python's > > put """line 1 > > line 2 > > line 3""" into tVar I'm not averse to the idea of multi-line literals - although constant-folding does go a long way to assuage the problems they solve in many cases. e.g. You can use format("dfsdf\ndfgdfg") for short strings with newlines in, and any chained sequence of concatenations of constants will be evaluated at compile time. The main issue here is the effect on tooling really - any code which processes LiveCode Script in any way would need to change to take them into account. This not only includes syntax highlighters and editors but any code which groks script for other reason. This means that what might be a relatively simple change to the engine, actually introduces a ripple effect where the whole implementation burden is a great deal higher. [ I'd point out that I don't think there is a single piece of tooling in existence which actually fully supports the *current* lexical structure of LiveCode - which has not actually changed since day dot - including the existing Script Editor ] That being said, in terms of what multiline syntax I'd propose, if it were to be added - I'd be in favour of Swift's model. Most other languages have added multiline strings with no thought to code structure, however the Swift team really have: var foo = """ Line 1 - spaces before stripped Line 2 - spaces before stripped """ There are two simple rules at play here. The first is that no string content is present on the lines containing """ - i.e. the string content starts on the line after the opening """, and the string content ends on the line before the closing """. The second is that whitespace is stripped from each line of the string content based on the whitespace before the final """. i.e. If the """ is indented by 3 spaces, then 3 spaces are removed from all lines of the content. This means indenting of such literals is no different from any other construct - and is merely predicated on identifying the lines in such a literal as continuations (i.e. each line is an extension to the last). > 2. global constants. Most compiled languages will allow an 'include' > file which can specify constants, which you can then rely on to be > defined properly (and the same) everywhere. So that's probably too > much at odds with LC's model - but could be handled by 'protect' > global variables (or, I'm sure, another 10 ways that Mark W. could > think of). So if by 'global constant' you mean being able to define a token which means the same thing in all scripts - then yes, that does not really fit at all as it breaks the logical independence of all scripts in terms of what tokens mean. Put another way, all scripts would have to be recompiled when a script defines such a thing, which would then potentially change the meaning of any script if it happens to internally use said token for something else (in the worse case scripts which did not have syntax errors before might do so after). This is why you have to declare global variables in all scripts which use them. The request for 'global constants' comes up repeatedly, but I don't really recall anyone proposing a single use-case which couldn't be solved in a 'better' (relative to xTalkiness existing featurs) way :D Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From benr_mc at cogapp.com Wed Sep 8 05:42:20 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:42:20 +0100 Subject: Text encoding: summary of results and times. In-Reply-To: <2454C051-64DB-4B23-A04D-9D9E38D20B62@iotecdigital.com> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <92653c1d-3bae-7777-62c5-69d0d0fd45f5@tweedly.net> <2632d3b3-e851-96ee-3352-fd8c783f3c74@tweedly.net> <2454C051-64DB-4B23-A04D-9D9E38D20B62@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: On 07/09/2021 17:22, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > This makes sense to me (I think) because if I am not mistaken, UTF16 is Unicode, and UTF8 is simple ASCII. The slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precicely the support for Unicode text. Someone will correct me if I am wrong about this. As a hobbyist, I try and stay away from localization issues. But I am interested in the idea that all text incoming should be text decoded and outgoing the inverse. (Did I get that right??) Cue scenes of strong men reeling back in horror, ladies fainting, etc (Bateman cartoons, for those of a British persuasion). UTF16 is not Unicode, UTF8 is not simple ASCII, and I'm not even sure that the slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precisely the support for Unicode text, though I'm not sure about that. Unicode and ASCII are both conventions that assign character interpretations to numbers. ASCII assigned approximately 94 character interpretations to the numbers 32-126 (plus a few control interpretations to some other numbers). WindowsLatin1, MacRoman, ISO-8859-1 etc all did the same but to a wider range of numbers up to 255. Unicode does the same thing for a... much... larger number of characters and glyphs, and hence using a... much... larger range of numbers. Unicode specifies numbers, not bytes. UTF8 and UTF16 are two of several ways of representing Unicode strings in bytes. UTF8 is designed to do so in a way that makes ASCII text compatible with UTF8, i.e. a file of ASCII text is a valid UTF8 file; the reverse is not necessarily true. A long-running problem with Metacard, Revolution, LC up to v6 was being surprisingly platform-centric about character sets. To this day, textEncode etc only support MacRoman on Mac, only support ISO-8859-1 on Linux, and so on; as if we never are on one platform, needing to deal with character streams generated on another. See https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12205 https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22391 https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21320 LC7 brought LiveCode into the later part of the 20th century by properly supporting Unicode, and by breaking the assumed link between bytes and characters. However if I understand correctly, the internal format of strings does not, or at least not necessarily, correspond to any externally defined standard, but can take various forms in order to maximise efficiencies of processing and storage. Not sure if this helps, but it helped me to write it! Ben From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 8 06:02:33 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:02:33 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. Message-ID: Hi all I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the v and h lines and set tab stops. mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem to format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table or some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email? Thanks Sean -- Pi Digital From toolbook at kestner.de Wed Sep 8 06:06:40 2021 From: toolbook at kestner.de (toolbook at kestner.de) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 12:06:40 +0200 Subject: Warning in standalone builder Message-ID: <004c01d7a499$37f825c0$a7e87140$@kestner.de> Hi there, I get a warning when building a standalone on Win: "Windows x86-32, external No externals.txt config file found for enhancedwin" I am using the enhancedwin dll and have put the externals.txt into the following folders: * \MyDevelopingFolder\Externals\ * C:\Users\myAccount\Documents\My LiveCode\Externals\ Where else is the LC standalone builder missing this externals.txt file? Thanks Tiemo From andre at andregarzia.com Wed Sep 8 06:17:05 2021 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:17:05 +0100 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> Message-ID: I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though. > On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode wrote: > > Andre, when you say ?so bad? do you mean the script editor or? ? > -- > Scott Morrow > >> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >> >> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to switch back to a mac... > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From andre at andregarzia.com Wed Sep 8 06:35:00 2021 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:35:00 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> Message-ID: Hi Alex, > On 8 Sep 2021, at 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > I just don't understand this one, so no comment. As I understand, this is LC version of the ?spread operator?. It allows you to spread the elements of an array as the arguments to a handler. The code: put ?andre at example.com ? into tDataA[1] put ?Andre Garzia? into tDataA[2] sendEmail ?tDataA Is syntactically equivalent to: put ?andre at example.com ? into tDataA[1] put ?Andre Garzia? into tDataA[2] sendEmail tDataA[1], tDataA[2] Which means that you can code the ?sendEmail? command to have two string arguments instead of an array, as shown below: command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName // send your email end sendEmail The spread operator will pass every array element as an argument to the handler. It would be beneficial if this feature would also come paired a ?rest operator? that collected extra arguments in an array, so that we could declare the ?sendEmail? handler as command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName, ?pMoreArgumentsA // stuff end sendEmail This way, if the call uses an array that contains more than two elements, the remaining parameters are collected in the final ?pMoreArgumentsA? array. That if what I would like to have, LC didn?t say anything about this but it is very common in other languages to implement both operators at the same time. In the case of LiveCode there is an alternative though. We can use ?paramCount? and ?param()? to grab the extra parameters, but that requires us coding it while something like a ?rest operator? do that for us automatically. From curry at pair.com Wed Sep 8 07:10:29 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 07:10:29 -0400 Subject: Email Support level(s) clarification Message-ID: I hate to ask this offlist one-on-one because it seems much more of an FAQ-type question, where answering once could service many people, saving both LC Ltd and ourselves lots of time. So here it is.... Now "Email Support" is listed as an Addon in the new livecode.com Standard Pricing page. The details mention "unlimited email support" with "2 business days" turnaround. The cost seems to be the same as a platform. And here's the reason this is confusing: I don't see any info on the alternative or default if we do NOT add Email Support. (What's the "standard" Standard support, if any?) In practice, LC support email has been used for an incredibly broad range of issues. Everything from "hey, the web store is down" to Licensing questions. (And this question!) For years we've had two levels of support: default, or faster/more involved Pro support. If the new addon is roughly like Pro support, and the default still has basic email support, then it'll all make sense for existing users. Otherwise ... please enlighten me. Thanks! (I'd suggest an FAQ on this for newbies too.) Apologies if this has been covered already; I was unable to follow every thread lately. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From thatkeith at mac.com Wed Sep 8 07:14:13 2021 From: thatkeith at mac.com (Keith Martin) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 12:14:13 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> References: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> Message-ID: <72684792-76CF-4327-A351-EE7367858A63@mac.com> > On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: > > My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of? in terms of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?. I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am a writer... Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or even four, but it's not technically *correct.* I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true! :) k From benr_mc at cogapp.com Wed Sep 8 08:09:30 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:09:30 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <0a0e03ae-517a-0cb5-eef0-b7b47a26c035@cogapp.com> I'm also excited by the items in this list, at least the ones that I understand. I still haven't fully understood the one Alex raises below, but I'm content that it won't bother me until I do. I am a bit disturbed by the Tail Expressions one, because to the extent that I do understand it, I don't see how this doesn't break existing code that passes an array, and will do so in the worst way, i.e. silently, leaving the developer to figure out what's going on by the secondary or tertiary effects. Am I wrong? I'm very pleased about constant expressions. I do wonder whether this raft of changes might also be the moment to do something about this nasty little weirdness: https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18390 I also wonder whether this might be the moment to introduce another bit of (completely non-breaking) syntactic sugar: https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8945 Ben, eagerly anticipating On 08/09/2021 08:50, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > On 2021-09-08 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >> But >> ???? put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2 >> isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC >> doesn't have 'lists'. >> >> Is it equivalent to >> ?? put true into tVar2[1] >> ?? put true into tVar2[2] >> ?? put true into tVar2[3]??? ?? > > Yes. > > A sequence in LC is a numerically-keyed array where the keys range from > 1...the number of elements. > > Admittedly they are (currently) still implemented as a 'normal' array > internally, but they do have different functionality in `repeat for each > element` which iterates in numeric order, and not hash order. > >> Why can't I say >> ??? put { myvar: "first", anothervar: tWhatever } into tVar2?? ? > > So if one treats array literals as an equivalent to an ordered sequence of put > statements (which is the canonical interpretation really!) then there is, in > principal, no problem with allowing non-constant expressions for both key and > value. > > Certainly non-constant value expressions are no problem at all, and would be > included in the initial implementation... I'm not averse to non-constant key > expressions either really, I'm just a little skittish over the resulting > reservation of ':' (which is probably fine), and the interplay with variables > and unquoted-literals (more in terms of difference that might occur between > what the engine thinks something means and what the writer intended). > >> But I was disappointed to not see my two biggest 'constant' wishes >> >> 1. multi-line constants e.g. amongst other ways, Python's >> >> put """line 1 >> >> line 2 >> >> line 3""" into tVar > > I'm not averse to the idea of multi-line literals - although constant-folding > does go a long way to assuage the problems they solve in many cases. > > e.g. You can use format("dfsdf\ndfgdfg") for short strings with newlines in, > and any chained sequence of concatenations of constants will be evaluated at > compile time. > > The main issue here is the effect on tooling really - any code which processes > LiveCode Script in any way would need to change to take them into account. > This not only includes syntax highlighters and editors but any code which > groks script for other reason. This means that what might be a relatively > simple change to the engine, actually introduces a ripple effect where the > whole implementation burden is a great deal higher. > > [ I'd point out that I don't think there is a single piece of tooling in > existence which actually fully supports the *current* lexical structure of > LiveCode - which has not actually changed since day dot - including the > existing Script Editor ] > > That being said, in terms of what multiline syntax I'd propose, if it were to > be added - I'd be in favour of Swift's model. Most other languages have added > multiline strings with no thought to code structure, however the Swift team > really have: > > ?? var foo = """ > ???? Line 1 - spaces before stripped > ???? Line 2 - spaces before stripped > ???? """ > > There are two simple rules at play here. > > The first is that no string content is present on the lines containing """ - > i.e. the string content starts on the line after the opening """, and the > string content ends on the line before the closing """. > > The second is that whitespace is stripped from each line of the string content > based on the whitespace before the final """. i.e. If the """ is indented by 3 > spaces, then 3 spaces are removed from all lines of the content. > > This means indenting of such literals is no different from any other construct > - and is merely predicated on identifying the lines in such a literal as > continuations (i.e. each line is an extension to the last). > >> 2. global constants. Most compiled languages will allow an 'include' >> file which can specify constants, which you can then rely on to be >> defined properly (and the same) everywhere. So that's probably too >> much at odds with LC's model - but could be handled by 'protect' >> global variables (or, I'm sure, another 10 ways that Mark W. could >> think of). > > So if by 'global constant' you mean being able to define a token which means > the same thing in all scripts - then yes, that does not really fit at all as > it breaks the logical independence of all scripts in terms of what tokens mean. > > Put another way, all scripts would have to be recompiled when a script defines > such a thing, which would then potentially change the meaning of any script if > it happens to internally use said token for something else (in the worse case > scripts which did not have syntax errors before might do so after). This is > why you have to declare global variables in all scripts which use them. > > The request for 'global constants' comes up repeatedly, but I don't really > recall anyone proposing a single use-case which couldn't be solved in a > 'better' (relative to xTalkiness existing featurs) way :D > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. > From benr_mc at cogapp.com Wed Sep 8 08:13:36 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:13:36 +0100 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> Message-ID: May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same applies using LC 6.7? It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific speed issues did. Ben On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though. > >> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Andre, when you say ?so bad? do you mean the script editor or? ? >> -- >> Scott Morrow >> >>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to switch back to a mac... >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From toolbook at kestner.de Wed Sep 8 08:26:06 2021 From: toolbook at kestner.de (toolbook at kestner.de) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:26:06 +0200 Subject: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> Message-ID: <005a01d7a4ac$b2678d60$1736a820$@kestner.de> The response of the IDE on Windows is harrowing slow. It's definitely no fun and is chilling for every newbe! I tried all tweaks without result. For me the hassle started with LC 7 (if I remember right) Tiemo -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: use-livecode Im Auftrag von Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 14:14 An: Andre Garzia via use-livecode Cc: Ben Rubinstein Betreff: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same applies using LC 6.7? It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific speed issues did. Ben On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though. > >> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Andre, when you say ?so bad? do you mean the script editor or? ? >> -- >> Scott Morrow >> >>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to switch back to a mac... >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr at cogapp.com Wed Sep 8 08:38:02 2021 From: benr at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:38:02 +0100 Subject: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <005a01d7a4ac$b2678d60$1736a820$@kestner.de> References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> <005a01d7a4ac$b2678d60$1736a820$@kestner.de> Message-ID: <829aea92-79b5-2d85-24eb-148c3bf20c57@cogapp.com> Thanks Tiemo. I think it would help LiveCode address this issue if we knew two things: - if this is something that changed at some point, what was that point - if this doesn't affect everyone on Windows, what are the relevant distinctions In relation to the first question, if someone who is experiencing the problem was able to test using https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/7_0_0/LiveCodeInstaller-7_0_0-Windows.exe and https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/6_7_11/LiveCodeCommercialInstaller-6_7_11-Windows.exe and confirm whether there's a dramatic difference in IDE speed, that would help. (Unfortunately since the licensing changes, the available installers for these old versions require someone with a commercial license.) In relation to the second, by my count four people have now reported harrowingly slow IDE performance on Windows. I think at least two have said it's fine for them. Could we get a catalogue of the setups which do and don't experience the issue? Ben On 08/09/2021 13:26, Tiemo via use-livecode wrote: > The response of the IDE on Windows is harrowing slow. It's definitely no fun and is chilling for every newbe! > I tried all tweaks without result. > > For me the hassle started with LC 7 (if I remember right) > > Tiemo > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: use-livecode Im Auftrag von Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 14:14 > An: Andre Garzia via use-livecode > Cc: Ben Rubinstein > Betreff: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) > > May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same applies using LC 6.7? > > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific speed issues did. > > Ben > > On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >> I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though. >> >>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Andre, when you say ?so bad? do you mean the script editor or? ? >>> -- >>> Scott Morrow >>> >>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to switch back to a mac... >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From mark at livecode.com Wed Sep 8 08:43:49 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:43:49 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <0003958dc43c91848c554ae0c4cac66f@livecode.com> On 2021-09-08 11:35, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >> I just don't understand this one, so no comment. > > As I understand, this is LC version of the ?spread operator?. It > allows you to spread the elements of an array as the arguments to a > handler. > > The code: > > put ?andre at example.com ? into tDataA[1] > put ?Andre Garzia? into tDataA[2] > > sendEmail ?tDataA > > Is syntactically equivalent to: > > > put ?andre at example.com ? into tDataA[1] > put ?Andre Garzia? into tDataA[2] > > sendEmail tDataA[1], tDataA[2] > > Which means that you can code the ?sendEmail? command to have two > string arguments instead of an array, as shown below: > > command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName > // send your email > end sendEmail > > The spread operator will pass every array element as an argument to > the handler. Yes - that is precisely what it is :) > It would be beneficial if this feature would also come paired a ?rest > operator? that collected extra arguments in an array, so that we could > declare the ?sendEmail? handler as > > command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName, ?pMoreArgumentsA > // stuff > end sendEmail > > This way, if the call uses an array that contains more than two > elements, the remaining parameters are collected in the final > ?pMoreArgumentsA? array. That if what I would like to have, LC didn?t > say anything about this but it is very common in other languages to > implement both operators at the same time. Indeed. The key thing here is that doing that adds to the handler signature syntax which I'd prefer to do as part of a more substantial improvement to the expressibility of that aspect of the language. Therefore... > In the case of LiveCode there is an alternative though. We can use > ?paramCount? and ?param()? to grab the extra parameters, but that > requires us coding it while something like a ?rest operator? do that > for us automatically. The feature I omitted from the list and which does pair with the spread (or tail) operator is a tweak to the params function... Namely: params(N) => returns a sequence or params starting from the Nth So in the above: command sendEmail pEmail, pFullName local tMoreArgumentsA put params(3) into tMoreArgumentsA ... end sendEmail This is a direct evolution / useful addition to the current way existing handlers manipulate arguments - and, more importantly, saves a blob of code I've seen 100's of times in code which needs to forward arguments: command foo local tParams repeat with i = 1 to the paramCount put param(i) into tParams[i] end repeat ... end foo Also this feature is largely orthogonal to any tweak to handler signature (i.e. the merge operator, Andre suggests above) as it just manipulates the parameters as defined by the signature. For example, in the imagined case of a 'merge' clause: command merged pFoo, pRestA... put the paramCount into tCount -- gives 2 put param(1) into tFoo -- would give pFoo put param(2) into tRestA - would give pRestA end merged Here there are two parameters - pFoo, and an (array) pRestA which contains the rest of the parameters passed. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From mark at livecode.com Wed Sep 8 09:20:34 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 14:20:34 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <0a0e03ae-517a-0cb5-eef0-b7b47a26c035@cogapp.com> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> <0a0e03ae-517a-0cb5-eef0-b7b47a26c035@cogapp.com> Message-ID: On 2021-09-08 13:09, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: > I'm also excited by the items in this list, at least the ones that I > understand. > > I am a bit disturbed by the Tail Expressions one, because to the > extent that I do understand it, I don't see how this doesn't break > existing code that passes an array, and will do so in the worst way, > i.e. silently, leaving the developer to figure out what's going on by > the secondary or tertiary effects. Am I wrong? It requires an explicit '...': put 1 into tFoo[1] put 2 into tFoo[2] myHandler tFoo -- passes a single argument: the array tFoo myHandler ... tFoo -- passes two arguments: 1, 2 (the elements of tFoo) Interesting your missing of the all important operator being required reminds of a mistake I did make way back when I added the ability to use a sequence array as an array index... put tArray[tFoo] into tBar -- evaluates as tArray[1][2] I really should have thought to require explicit syntax there. i.e. put tArray[... tFoo] into tBar The reason here is performance - if I had done that it would mean the engine would known that in the case of: put tArray[tFoo] That it will only ever generate a path of length 1 to index the array - rather than pretty much all array expressions potentially being unbounded in length. You live, you learn. > I'm very pleased about constant expressions. I do wonder whether this > raft of changes might also be the moment to do something about this > nasty little weirdness: > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18390 Well constant expressions do alleviate that problem a bit: constant kFormatArg = format("\"%s\"") put format(kFormatArg, "Hello") => "Hello" put format("\"%s\"", "Hello") => "Hello" i.e. The use of `\` escapes in format, generates characters which format otherwise skips over as content - except `\` itself, so you have to be a little careful there. i.e. constant kFormatArg = "\\\\%s" put format(kFormatArg, "Hello") => "\Hello" put format("\\%s", "Hello") => "\Hello" In regards to your comment on that report then yes that is a good idea - albeit a breaking change. However, I think that is probably best considered as part of a package of changes which improve the expression of string constants generally. After all, if tooling is going to be updated, it is better to do so 'all in one go', rather than in dribs and drabs. Multi-line string literals (as mentioned previously) would go into that 'package'. Another thing we could consider at that point is adding a 'f' prefix to literals which imply they are C-style escaped (basically a contraction of 'format')... Indeed, we could even make that a way to introduce variable interpolation. Also, at that point I'd probably suggest that we also allow ' or " to delimit strings. So f'...' or f"...", '...\'...', "...\"...", '''...''', """...""". (Specifically here I'm proposing that there would be no semantic difference between ' and " - they would merely enable trivial inclusion of the other quote type). > I also wonder whether this might be the moment to introduce another > bit of (completely non-breaking) syntactic sugar: > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8945 Hehe - with integers being unbounded, there are plenty more version numbers in the future ;) Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From curry at pair.com Wed Sep 8 09:22:35 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 09:22:35 -0400 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b065a01-4c5a-960f-1011-f05657d6d96d@pair.com> Ben: > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, > or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know > some other Windows-specific speed issues did. Not "it". Instead a combination: 1. LC 7 Engine Performance issues. 2. New Windows antivirus trends affecting disk access. 3. Mediocre LC SE design with excessive disk access. 4. Lack of LC Dev Team adequate Windows use/testing. 5. Fewer "High Roller" or "VIP" LC users focused on Windows. 6. New SE "wow" features built atop Mediocre LC SE design. 7. Perhaps others/still unknown. Long thread(s) about this previously including one by myself. Solutions for many: 1. Only use SSD, never HDD. 2. Tweak antivirus, disable intensive options. 3. Turn off some fancy newer SE bling options. 4. Adequate memory, optimize PC. I've had no problems since SSD. (But yeah, it's mostly mediocre IDE design + antivirus trends, plus Mac is the teacher's pet and favored platform.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From harrison at all-auctions.com Wed Sep 8 10:54:35 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:54:35 -0400 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sean, Could you try converting your table into a .pdf file so it displays properly? Good luck! Rick > On Sep 8, 2021, at 6:02 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi all > > I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the > body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are > displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the v > and h lines and set tab stops. > > mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem to > format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table or > some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email? > > Thanks > Sean > -- > Pi Digital > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 8 11:05:07 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:05:07 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rick, It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField). Sean On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 15:54, Rick Harrison via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Sean, > > Could you try converting your table into a .pdf file so it displays > properly? > > Good luck! > > Rick > > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 6:02 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Hi all > > > > I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the > > body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are > > displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the v > > and h lines and set tab stops. > > > > mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem to > > format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table or > > some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email? > > > > Thanks > > Sean > > -- > > Pi Digital > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 11:19:33 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:19:33 +0000 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: <15B9DB60-31E7-41C9-B66B-68D9340FA981@gmail.com> Message-ID: Speaking of an educational license, perhaps consider, now that a lot of learning is online, having the ability to "assign" a seat license an email and password, so that someone could teach an online course, and distribute each seat license to students for the duration of the class. Upon graduation the teacher can direct the students to the Livecode site where they can purchase a (perhaps new user special deal) license of their own, and then turn off their per seat educational license. Bob S From mark at livecode.com Wed Sep 8 11:28:04 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 16:28:04 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-09-08 11:02, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > Hi all > > I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the > body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are > displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the > v > and h lines and set tab stops. > > mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem > to > format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table > or > some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email? So the mime library call you are talking about is super simple - it just dumps the htmlText of the field into the HTML (so is fine as long as its just simple formatting involved), and then looks for inline images and attaches them as other parts. The code is in the mime extension (com.livecode.library.mime) and the handler in question (mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument) is built out of other public mime library APIs... It would be relatively straightforward to create your own version and customize the HTML output to your needs. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 11:39:12 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:39:12 +0000 Subject: Text encoding: summary of results and times. In-Reply-To: References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <92653c1d-3bae-7777-62c5-69d0d0fd45f5@tweedly.net> <2632d3b3-e851-96ee-3352-fd8c783f3c74@tweedly.net> <2454C051-64DB-4B23-A04D-9D9E38D20B62@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <4A7C28B8-E946-45EB-827C-063F0A152AD6@iotecdigital.com> It sure helped me to understand it! Thanks. As I understand the performance issue thought between 6.7 and later versions of LC, it revolves around having to process all the unicode strings that are native now. Or so the discussion has gone in the past. If not, then the performance hit since v7 has yet to be explained sufficiently. Bob S > On Sep 8, 2021, at 02:42 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: > > > On 07/09/2021 17:22, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> This makes sense to me (I think) because if I am not mistaken, UTF16 is Unicode, and UTF8 is simple ASCII. The slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precicely the support for Unicode text. Someone will correct me if I am wrong about this. As a hobbyist, I try and stay away from localization issues. But I am interested in the idea that all text incoming should be text decoded and outgoing the inverse. (Did I get that right??) > > Cue scenes of strong men reeling back in horror, ladies fainting, etc (Bateman cartoons, for those of a British persuasion). > > UTF16 is not Unicode, UTF8 is not simple ASCII, and I'm not even sure that the slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precisely the support for Unicode text, though I'm not sure about that. > > Unicode and ASCII are both conventions that assign character interpretations to numbers. ASCII assigned approximately 94 character interpretations to the numbers 32-126 (plus a few control interpretations to some other numbers). WindowsLatin1, MacRoman, ISO-8859-1 etc all did the same but to a wider range of numbers up to 255. Unicode does the same thing for a... much... larger number of characters and glyphs, and hence using a... much... larger range of numbers. > > Unicode specifies numbers, not bytes. UTF8 and UTF16 are two of several ways of representing Unicode strings in bytes. UTF8 is designed to do so in a way that makes ASCII text compatible with UTF8, i.e. a file of ASCII text is a valid UTF8 file; the reverse is not necessarily true. > > A long-running problem with Metacard, Revolution, LC up to v6 was being surprisingly platform-centric about character sets. To this day, textEncode etc only support MacRoman on Mac, only support ISO-8859-1 on Linux, and so on; as if we never are on one platform, needing to deal with character streams generated on another. See > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12205 > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22391 > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21320 > > LC7 brought LiveCode into the later part of the 20th century by properly supporting Unicode, and by breaking the assumed link between bytes and characters. However if I understand correctly, the internal format of strings does not, or at least not necessarily, correspond to any externally defined standard, but can take various forms in order to maximise efficiencies of processing and storage. > > Not sure if this helps, but it helped me to write it! > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 11:44:00 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:44:00 +0000 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> Message-ID: <20DF149B-7878-42EA-8847-D941CBF168C2@iotecdigital.com> I don't use 6.7 anymore, but no, they do not. At least not to the degree they do now. Bob S > On Sep 8, 2021, at 05:13 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: > > May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same applies using LC 6.7? > > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific speed issues did. > > Ben > > On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >> I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though. >>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Andre, when you say ?so bad? do you mean the script editor or? ? >>> -- >>> Scott Morrow >>> >>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to switch back to a mac... >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From iphonelagi at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 11:47:00 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:47:00 +0100 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> Message-ID: Hi Ben, I did some testing using the CPU% in the task manager - i was trying to do some more before sending in my results. It looks like if it has been running for some time but the time is not "quantified" at the moment as I have not been working on my project much these last few months. When I do NOTICE the slowdown you cabn be sure i am not imagining seeing characters typing 1 per second or 2 or the debugger taking ages to go to the next step or the autocomplete stopping working even after a reboot and then starting again for no apparent reason. Another real slowdown is when I have the project browser open or the messagebox - not always to the same extent or to the same sklowdown. I will install 6 (although if I remember 6 was fine) Regards Lagi On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 13:14, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows > (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same > applies using LC 6.7? > > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or > whether it > came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific > speed > issues did. > > Ben > > On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > > I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit > of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a > Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though. > > > >> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> Andre, when you say ?so bad? do you mean the script editor or? ? > >> -- > >> Scott Morrow > >> > >>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused > me to switch back to a mac... > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From heather at livecode.com Wed Sep 8 11:49:01 2021 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:49:01 +0100 Subject: Email Support level(s) clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <352CB31E-2B89-40E0-8C03-569722DDB605@livecode.com> Hello Curry, What we offer in the way of support to various license types: No license - we'll answer any presales questions you have. We won't offer any other kind of support. Any license holder of any kind - up and running support. Can't install? Got a problem activating? Won't download? Happy to help, drop us an email. Starter and Standard plan license holders - basic up and running support, plus seeking out resources to help you via direct email. Any other support, via the dedicated support forum. So, if there's a lesson on it I'll be happy to send you the link. If there isn't, I'll redirect you to the support forum where your issue can be discussed. Email Support license holders - send us unlimited emails, on any kind of coding question, and we'll do our best to help. We won't write your project for you, but we will offer code samples, help debug, identify issues, look at your code and suggest better ways to do things. We'll update our FAQ on the website to ensure this is covered. Best Regards, Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 8 Sep 2021, at 12:10, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > I hate to ask this offlist one-on-one because > it seems much more of an FAQ-type question, > where answering once could service many people, > saving both LC Ltd and ourselves lots of time. > > So here it is.... > > Now "Email Support" is listed as an Addon > in the new livecode.com Standard Pricing page. > > The details mention "unlimited email support" > with "2 business days" turnaround. > > The cost seems to be the same as a platform. > > And here's the reason this is confusing: > I don't see any info on the alternative > or default if we do NOT add Email Support. > (What's the "standard" Standard support, if any?) > > In practice, LC support email has been used > for an incredibly broad range of issues. > Everything from "hey, the web store is down" > to Licensing questions. (And this question!) > > For years we've had two levels of support: > default, or faster/more involved Pro support. > > If the new addon is roughly like Pro support, > and the default still has basic email support, > then it'll all make sense for existing users. > Otherwise ... please enlighten me. Thanks! > > (I'd suggest an FAQ on this for newbies too.) > > Apologies if this has been covered already; > I was unable to follow every thread lately. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr_mc at cogapp.com Wed Sep 8 11:48:27 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:48:27 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> <0a0e03ae-517a-0cb5-eef0-b7b47a26c035@cogapp.com> Message-ID: <42ee424d-2a00-4c49-eb67-2d5b8fc27d72@cogapp.com> > It requires an explicit '...': Ahah! Not being a javascripter, I completely missed that, and thought you were just omitting some text for clarity! [Sidenote: what idiot decided to use ellipsis as an operator?? And not even the ellipsis character, but three dots???]. > Interesting your missing of the all important operator being required reminds > of a mistake I did make way back when I added the ability to use a sequence > array as an array index... > > put tArray[tFoo] into tBar -- evaluates as tArray[1][2] What the... ? [insert joke here - I wrote that without realising what I'd done...]. I had no idea this facility existed. Is it documented anywhere? Just to be clear, because the example below is ambiguous, given put "a" into tFoo[1] put "b" into tFoo[2] would put tArray[tFoo] into tBar evaluate as tArray["a"]["b"] or tArray[1][2] ? On 08/09/2021 14:20, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > On 2021-09-08 13:09, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: >> I'm also excited by the items in this list, at least the ones that I >> understand. >> >> I am a bit disturbed by the Tail Expressions one, because to the >> extent that I do understand it, I don't see how this doesn't break >> existing code that passes an array, and will do so in the worst way, >> i.e. silently, leaving the developer to figure out what's going on by >> the secondary or tertiary effects. Am I wrong? > > It requires an explicit '...': > > ??? put 1 into tFoo[1] > ??? put 2 into tFoo[2] > > ??? myHandler tFoo -- passes a single argument: the array tFoo > ??? myHandler ... tFoo -- passes two arguments: 1, 2 (the elements of tFoo) > > Interesting your missing of the all important operator being required reminds > of a mistake I did make way back when I added the ability to use a sequence > array as an array index... > > ? put tArray[tFoo] into tBar -- evaluates as tArray[1][2] > > I really should have thought to require explicit syntax there. i.e. > > ? put tArray[... tFoo] into tBar > > The reason here is performance - if I had done that it would mean the engine > would known that in the case of: > > ? put tArray[tFoo] > > That it will only ever generate a path of length 1 to index the array - rather > than pretty much all array expressions potentially being unbounded in length. > > You live, you learn. > >> I'm very pleased about constant expressions. I do wonder whether this >> raft of changes might also be the moment to do something about this >> nasty little weirdness: >> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18390 > > Well constant expressions do alleviate that problem a bit: > > ??? constant kFormatArg = format("\"%s\"") > > ??? put format(kFormatArg, "Hello") => "Hello" > ??? put format("\"%s\"", "Hello") => "Hello" > > i.e. The use of `\` escapes in format, generates characters which format > otherwise skips over as content - except `\` itself, so you have to be a > little careful there. i.e. > > ?? constant kFormatArg = "\\\\%s" > > ?? put format(kFormatArg, "Hello") => "\Hello" > ?? put format("\\%s", "Hello") => "\Hello" > > In regards to your comment on that report then yes that is a good idea - > albeit a breaking change. However, I think that is probably best considered as > part of a package of changes which improve the expression of string constants > generally. After all, if tooling is going to be updated, it is better to do so > 'all in one go', rather than in dribs and drabs. Multi-line string literals > (as mentioned previously) would go into that 'package'. > > Another thing we could consider at that point is adding a 'f' prefix to > literals which imply they are C-style escaped (basically a contraction of > 'format')... Indeed, we could even make that a way to introduce variable > interpolation. > > Also, at that point I'd probably suggest that we also allow ' or " to delimit > strings. > > So f'...' or f"...", '...\'...', "...\"...", '''...''', """...""". > > (Specifically here I'm proposing that there would be no semantic difference > between ' and " - they would merely enable trivial inclusion of the other > quote type). > > >> I also wonder whether this might be the moment to introduce another >> bit of (completely non-breaking) syntactic sugar: >> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8945 > > Hehe - with integers being unbounded, there are plenty more version numbers in > the future ;) > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. > From iphonelagi at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 11:50:51 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:50:51 +0100 Subject: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <829aea92-79b5-2d85-24eb-148c3bf20c57@cogapp.com> References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> <005a01d7a4ac$b2678d60$1736a820$@kestner.de> <829aea92-79b5-2d85-24eb-148c3bf20c57@cogapp.com> Message-ID: Also can I make clear that I dont think it is the size of the script. Originally I had a 2000 line library stack and 14000 line main stack When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get the slowdown. When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its fast on both - no consistency Lagi On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 13:39, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Thanks Tiemo. > > I think it would help LiveCode address this issue if we knew two things: > - if this is something that changed at some point, what was that > point > - if this doesn't affect everyone on Windows, what are the > relevant distinctions > > In relation to the first question, if someone who is experiencing the > problem > was able to test using > > https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/7_0_0/LiveCodeInstaller-7_0_0-Windows.exe > and > > https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/6_7_11/LiveCodeCommercialInstaller-6_7_11-Windows.exe > and confirm whether there's a dramatic difference in IDE speed, that would > help. (Unfortunately since the licensing changes, the available installers > for > these old versions require someone with a commercial license.) > > In relation to the second, by my count four people have now reported > harrowingly slow IDE performance on Windows. I think at least two have > said > it's fine for them. Could we get a catalogue of the setups which do and > don't > experience the issue? > > Ben > > > On 08/09/2021 13:26, Tiemo via use-livecode wrote: > > The response of the IDE on Windows is harrowing slow. It's definitely no > fun and is chilling for every newbe! > > I tried all tweaks without result. > > > > For me the hassle started with LC 7 (if I remember right) > > > > Tiemo > > > > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: use-livecode Im Auftrag > von Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 14:14 > > An: Andre Garzia via use-livecode > > Cc: Ben Rubinstein > > Betreff: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community > Edition) > > > > May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows > (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same > applies using LC 6.7? > > > > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or > whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other > Windows-specific speed issues did. > > > > Ben > > > > On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > >> I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit > of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a > Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though. > >> > >>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Andre, when you say ?so bad? do you mean the script editor or? ? > >>> -- > >>> Scott Morrow > >>> > >>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it > caused me to switch back to a mac... > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From iphonelagi at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 11:57:07 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:57:07 +0100 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: <4b065a01-4c5a-960f-1011-f05657d6d96d@pair.com> References: <4b065a01-4c5a-960f-1011-f05657d6d96d@pair.com> Message-ID: Hi Curry, My Laptop is SSD and still the problems. , I have the problems with or without defender on.I don't use third party antivirus anymore as (especially with norton that customers still bloody buy) you get lots of eyecandy bloat and headaches - the best antivirus i have is the one between my ears. Lagi On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 14:23, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Ben: > > > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, > > or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know > > some other Windows-specific speed issues did. > > Not "it". Instead a combination: > > 1. LC 7 Engine Performance issues. > 2. New Windows antivirus trends affecting disk access. > 3. Mediocre LC SE design with excessive disk access. > 4. Lack of LC Dev Team adequate Windows use/testing. > 5. Fewer "High Roller" or "VIP" LC users focused on Windows. > 6. New SE "wow" features built atop Mediocre LC SE design. > 7. Perhaps others/still unknown. > > Long thread(s) about this previously including one by myself. > > Solutions for many: > > 1. Only use SSD, never HDD. > 2. Tweak antivirus, disable intensive options. > 3. Turn off some fancy newer SE bling options. > 4. Adequate memory, optimize PC. > > I've had no problems since SSD. > > (But yeah, it's mostly mediocre IDE design + antivirus trends, > plus Mac is the teacher's pet and favored platform.) > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 11:58:06 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:58:06 +0000 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> Message-ID: <81AB2FE1-0CCC-4A26-AC24-26768344482B@iotecdigital.com> I also have seen the autocomplete stop and start working, and that on a Mac. It may have something to do with the length of the script. I have also seen the extreme slowdown issue on Windows script editor and also in the performance. Most of the performance hit is in the frequent saves I inserted into my code to compensate for an old issue where the IDE would crash to desktop. But also I have tested sql queries, and they are also several times slower, as is populating datagrids and other things. As I have stated, I have done timing tests on several Windows platforms and have posted those results in the past, so I won't go through that exercise again. Suffice it to say that the Mac standalone I would be willing to market (if my code were good enough) but I would never attempt to market a Windows version of my code at this point. Bob S > On Sep 8, 2021, at 08:47 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > I did some testing using the CPU% in the task manager - i was trying to do > some more before sending in my results. > It looks like if it has been running for some time but the time is not > "quantified" at the moment as I have not been working > on my project much these last few months. > > When I do NOTICE the slowdown you cabn be sure i am not imagining seeing > characters typing 1 per second or 2 or the debugger taking ages to go to > the next step > or the autocomplete stopping working even after a reboot and then starting > again for no apparent reason. > > Another real slowdown is when I have the project browser open or the > messagebox - not always to the same extent or to the same sklowdown. > > I will install 6 (although if I remember 6 was fine) > > Regards Lagi > > On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 13:14, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows >> (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same >> applies using LC 6.7? >> >> It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or >> whether it >> came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific >> speed >> issues did. >> >> Ben From benr_mc at cogapp.com Wed Sep 8 12:04:44 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 17:04:44 +0100 Subject: Text encoding: summary of results and times. In-Reply-To: <4A7C28B8-E946-45EB-827C-063F0A152AD6@iotecdigital.com> References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <92653c1d-3bae-7777-62c5-69d0d0fd45f5@tweedly.net> <2632d3b3-e851-96ee-3352-fd8c783f3c74@tweedly.net> <2454C051-64DB-4B23-A04D-9D9E38D20B62@iotecdigital.com> <4A7C28B8-E946-45EB-827C-063F0A152AD6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: I think that as the code changes in since v7 also included some substantial optimisations, I'm no longer certain that there is *in general* a performance hit from v7 onwards... except on Windows, where Mark W has hinted he may soon fix this. But I'm not absolutely sure. Because the only place I really do massive massive amounts of text processing is on an unattended Windows machine, that's where I see the difference, which I previously attributed to the support for Unicode; on Mac, in general I (a) continue to find the text processing so blindingly fast that it doesn't bother me and (b) don't have a good framework for comparison because this is basically on the machine where I live and work, so there's always a substantial but variable amount of other activity going on. Ben On 08/09/2021 16:39, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > It sure helped me to understand it! Thanks. As I understand the performance issue thought between 6.7 and later versions of LC, it revolves around having to process all the unicode strings that are native now. Or so the discussion has gone in the past. If not, then the performance hit since v7 has yet to be explained sufficiently. > > Bob S > > >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 02:42 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: >> >> >> On 07/09/2021 17:22, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> This makes sense to me (I think) because if I am not mistaken, UTF16 is Unicode, and UTF8 is simple ASCII. The slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precicely the support for Unicode text. Someone will correct me if I am wrong about this. As a hobbyist, I try and stay away from localization issues. But I am interested in the idea that all text incoming should be text decoded and outgoing the inverse. (Did I get that right??) >> >> Cue scenes of strong men reeling back in horror, ladies fainting, etc (Bateman cartoons, for those of a British persuasion). >> >> UTF16 is not Unicode, UTF8 is not simple ASCII, and I'm not even sure that the slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precisely the support for Unicode text, though I'm not sure about that. >> >> Unicode and ASCII are both conventions that assign character interpretations to numbers. ASCII assigned approximately 94 character interpretations to the numbers 32-126 (plus a few control interpretations to some other numbers). WindowsLatin1, MacRoman, ISO-8859-1 etc all did the same but to a wider range of numbers up to 255. Unicode does the same thing for a... much... larger number of characters and glyphs, and hence using a... much... larger range of numbers. >> >> Unicode specifies numbers, not bytes. UTF8 and UTF16 are two of several ways of representing Unicode strings in bytes. UTF8 is designed to do so in a way that makes ASCII text compatible with UTF8, i.e. a file of ASCII text is a valid UTF8 file; the reverse is not necessarily true. >> >> A long-running problem with Metacard, Revolution, LC up to v6 was being surprisingly platform-centric about character sets. To this day, textEncode etc only support MacRoman on Mac, only support ISO-8859-1 on Linux, and so on; as if we never are on one platform, needing to deal with character streams generated on another. See >> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12205 >> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=22391 >> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21320 >> >> LC7 brought LiveCode into the later part of the 20th century by properly supporting Unicode, and by breaking the assumed link between bytes and characters. However if I understand correctly, the internal format of strings does not, or at least not necessarily, correspond to any externally defined standard, but can take various forms in order to maximise efficiencies of processing and storage. >> >> Not sure if this helps, but it helped me to write it! >> >> Ben >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From benr_mc at cogapp.com Wed Sep 8 12:06:46 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 17:06:46 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> <0a0e03ae-517a-0cb5-eef0-b7b47a26c035@cogapp.com> Message-ID: <81445055-7a00-381b-f011-a318dd13a233@cogapp.com> On 08/09/2021 14:20, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: >> I also wonder whether this might be the moment to introduce another >> bit of (completely non-breaking) syntactic sugar: >> https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8945 > > Hehe - with integers being unbounded, there are plenty more version numbers in > the future ;) But why wait? (At least to introduce the 'uninterpreted' version.) If nothing else, it might serve to block the "@" symbol being hijacked for some other damn fool bit of syntax... Ben (grumpy old man) From mark at livecode.com Wed Sep 8 12:09:28 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 17:09:28 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <42ee424d-2a00-4c49-eb67-2d5b8fc27d72@cogapp.com> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> <0a0e03ae-517a-0cb5-eef0-b7b47a26c035@cogapp.com> <42ee424d-2a00-4c49-eb67-2d5b8fc27d72@cogapp.com> Message-ID: <48d428c65329cc6714ec6cae7489d1c9@livecode.com> On 2021-09-08 16:48, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: >> It requires an explicit '...': > > Ahah! Not being a javascripter, I completely missed that, and thought > you were just omitting some text for clarity! > > [Sidenote: what idiot decided to use ellipsis as an operator?? And not > even the ellipsis character, but three dots???]. Well the heritage of 'triple dots' for such things goes back to C - and I think the general idea is that its 'and the rest' (its used to mark variadic functions there). In terms of using it as the operator in this case: foo a, b, ... tFoo => call foo with parameters a, b, 'and the rest' from tFoo The reason why it isn't the ellipsis character is because it is generally advised to ensure that all core syntax of a language can be expressed in ASCII (for the antithesis of this idea - see APL!) >> Interesting your missing of the all important operator being required >> reminds >> of a mistake I did make way back when I added the ability to use a >> sequence >> array as an array index... >> >> put tArray[tFoo] into tBar -- evaluates as tArray[1][2] > > What the... ? [insert joke here - I wrote that without realising what > I'd done...]. I had no idea this facility existed. Is it documented > anywhere? I'm pretty sure you were one of the people who motivated it (the other definitely being Trevor)... It's definitely come up on the use-list before :D It has been in the engine for years - maybe since 4.x or 5.x? The addition was more than likely buried in the release notes though... > Just to be clear, because the example below is ambiguous, given > > put "a" into tFoo[1] > put "b" into tFoo[2] > > would > put tArray[tFoo] into tBar > > evaluate as > tArray["a"]["b"] > or > tArray[1][2] > > ? The former - if an array is encountered in an index, and is a sequence, the ordered sequence of values derived from the sequence is used as extra components of the path. Indeed, this happens recursively IIRC - i.e. if you have ['a', ['b', 'c'], 'd'] then the array path would be [a][b][c][d]. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 12:23:21 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:23:21 +0000 Subject: SE Show Globals inverted Message-ID: Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during this condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! I'll toss up a bug report later. Bob S From harrison at all-auctions.com Wed Sep 8 12:41:38 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 12:41:38 -0400 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA1AB9E-39A0-424B-9BD1-4A4CD6E3EB8D@all-auctions.com> Hi Sean, So you want the receiver of your emailed table to be able to modify the data in it. I would make it an HTML email so you can allow the user to enter the data directly into your server database table field. That?s if I am understanding you correctly here. Rick > On Sep 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Rick, > > It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode > library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from > the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the > email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically > the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField). > > Sean From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 13:09:18 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 17:09:18 +0000 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: <4BA1AB9E-39A0-424B-9BD1-4A4CD6E3EB8D@all-auctions.com> References: <4BA1AB9E-39A0-424B-9BD1-4A4CD6E3EB8D@all-auctions.com> Message-ID: <6ECF7AC2-D102-4C7E-9B4B-C1062DCA9F43@iotecdigital.com> I have this need as well. I send emails with completed tickets that have table data. What I have done in the past is use fixed length data padded with spaces, then I send the email in a monospaced font. Having the ability to send an email as html formatted text would be great, but last time I attempted it, it does not get received as html displayed, but only as the html itself. Watching thread with interest. Bob S > On Sep 8, 2021, at 09:41 , Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Sean, > > So you want the receiver of your emailed table to be able to modify the data in it. > > I would make it an HTML email so you can allow the user to enter the data > directly into your server database table field. > > That?s if I am understanding you correctly here. > > Rick > > >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, >> >> It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode >> library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from >> the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the >> email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically >> the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField). >> >> Sean > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Wed Sep 8 13:31:45 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 12:31:45 -0500 Subject: SE Show Globals inverted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy. For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or query something in the message box. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing > when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during this > condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! I'll > toss up a bug report later. > > Bob S > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 13:53:09 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 17:53:09 +0000 Subject: SE Show Globals inverted In-Reply-To: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <659D5D8F-0D7C-4C59-A532-E098BA5A5965@iotecdigital.com> Good to know. Not a knockout blow by any means, and at least now I know the workaround. :-) Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2021, at 10:33, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > ?This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy. For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or query something in the message box. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during this condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! I'll toss up a bug report later. >> >> Bob S >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bdrunrev at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 13:52:52 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 18:52:52 +0100 Subject: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> <005a01d7a4ac$b2678d60$1736a820$@kestner.de> <829aea92-79b5-2d85-24eb-148c3bf20c57@cogapp.com> Message-ID: I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large block comment). On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once there is that much text. Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine. With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone. I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle. On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get > the slowdown. > > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its fast > on both - no consistency > > Lagi > > From bdrunrev at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 13:56:02 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 18:56:02 +0100 Subject: SE Show Globals inverted In-Reply-To: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: I've seen it for years too. I never worked out what caused it. But I'm an inveterate user of the message box when debugging. I will look out for a pattern to it now. On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 6:32 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy. > For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or > query something in the message box. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > > > Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing > > when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during > this > > condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! > I'll > > toss up a bug report later. > > > > Bob S > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From ali.lloyd at livecode.com Wed Sep 8 14:44:26 2021 From: ali.lloyd at livecode.com (Ali Lloyd) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 19:44:26 +0100 Subject: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> <005a01d7a4ac$b2678d60$1736a820$@kestner.de> <829aea92-79b5-2d85-24eb-148c3bf20c57@cogapp.com> Message-ID: One thing to check is whether you are using a fixed width font, and if not whether you have the same performance issue with the SE when using one. On Wed, 8 Sep 2021, 18:52 Bernard Devlin via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large > block comment). On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once > there is that much text. Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine. > > With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone. > > I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has > no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field > to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get > > the slowdown. > > > > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the > > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its > fast > > on both - no consistency > > > > Lagi > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:07:44 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 20:07:44 +0100 Subject: LiveCode community edition is gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52CD4BF6-22F6-4B80-B57E-C240DA785D11@gmail.com> Bob, that is exactly what the schools and university licenses are. Plus, the apps developed with them the are non-expiring (which is probably a good thing since many students will want to continue using their apps and not have them go pffff and disappear). School is $25 a seat per year, and university is $50. If you are running a private non-accredited training program speak to Heather. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2021, at 4:20 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Speaking of an educational license, perhaps consider, now that a lot of learning is online, having the ability to "assign" a seat license an email and password, so that someone could teach an online course, and distribute each seat license to students for the duration of the class. Upon graduation the teacher can direct the students to the Livecode site where they can purchase a (perhaps new user special deal) license of their own, and then turn off their per seat educational license. > > Bob S > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 8 15:39:52 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 20:39:52 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40478112-5608-4C8A-9AF4-6F3D8B145451@pidigital.co.uk> Thanks Mark I will take a look Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 8 Sep 2021, at 16:28, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > > ?On 2021-09-08 11:02, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi all >> I'm trying to use the MIME encoder to send an email with a table in the >> body. I have a field that has both plain text and a few lines that are >> displayed as a table in the middle of it. I basically just turn on the v >> and h lines and set tab stops. >> mimeEncodeField... puts the text into the email body but does not seem to >> format out the table. Is there a way to get it to recognise the table or >> some other way of getting the table to display correctly in the email? > > So the mime library call you are talking about is super simple - it just dumps the htmlText of the field into the HTML (so is fine as long as its just simple formatting involved), and then looks for inline images and attaches them as other parts. > > The code is in the mime extension (com.livecode.library.mime) and the handler in question (mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument) is built out of other public mime library APIs... It would be relatively straightforward to create your own version and customize the HTML output to your needs. > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. > > -- > Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Everyone can create apps > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 8 15:42:07 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 20:42:07 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: <4BA1AB9E-39A0-424B-9BD1-4A4CD6E3EB8D@all-auctions.com> References: <4BA1AB9E-39A0-424B-9BD1-4A4CD6E3EB8D@all-auctions.com> Message-ID: <5B4A4140-928D-4BE0-B802-F67E4C352047@pidigital.co.uk> I just wanted a simple way of showing it without all the extra coding rigmarole. Especially in html. Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 8 Sep 2021, at 17:41, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Hi Sean, > > So you want the receiver of your emailed table to be able to modify the data in it. > > I would make it an HTML email so you can allow the user to enter the data > directly into your server database table field. > > That?s if I am understanding you correctly here. > > Rick > > >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, >> >> It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode >> library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from >> the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the >> email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically >> the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField). >> >> Sean > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 8 15:44:46 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 20:44:46 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: <6ECF7AC2-D102-4C7E-9B4B-C1062DCA9F43@iotecdigital.com> References: <6ECF7AC2-D102-4C7E-9B4B-C1062DCA9F43@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Me too, Bob. Same sort of scenario. It should just deal with them. It looks like I may end up with a mix of Mark?s and Rick?s suggestions. Maybe just html that bit. Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 8 Sep 2021, at 18:09, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > ?I have this need as well. I send emails with completed tickets that have table data. What I have done in the past is use fixed length data padded with spaces, then I send the email in a monospaced font. Having the ability to send an email as html formatted text would be great, but last time I attempted it, it does not get received as html displayed, but only as the html itself. > > Watching thread with interest. > > Bob S > > >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 09:41 , Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi Sean, >> >> So you want the receiver of your emailed table to be able to modify the data in it. >> >> I would make it an HTML email so you can allow the user to enter the data >> directly into your server database table field. >> >> That?s if I am understanding you correctly here. >> >> Rick >> >> >>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi Rick, >>> >>> It's not strictly what I was asking as I am talking about the mimeEncode >>> library. Plus it's a file that is then not easily selectable directly from >>> the email. I just want to be able to display a small table of data in the >>> email that is easily readable with a small footprint and using specifically >>> the mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField). >>> >>> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr_mc at cogapp.com Wed Sep 8 15:49:49 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 20:49:49 +0100 Subject: SE Show Globals inverted In-Reply-To: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <54cf04f6-dd29-321f-5e3e-69d44274b750@cogapp.com> I've not knowingly seen this issue. But while we're discussing viewing global variables, I still mourn this regression introduced in LC 8, when the message box stopped allowing inspection of arrays in global variables (the SE still does): https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17478 And while we're confessing laziness, my more shameful confession is about a crashing bug when using conditional breakpoints. I've become used to being very wary as soon as I start using these, and saving very often. Have others seen this issue? Ben On 08/09/2021 18:31, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy. For > me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or query > something in the message box. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode > wrote: > >> Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing when >> show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during this >> condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! I'll >> toss up a bug report later. >> >> Bob S >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription >> preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Wed Sep 8 15:54:40 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:54:40 -0500 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <72684792-76CF-4327-A351-EE7367858A63@mac.com> References: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <72684792-76CF-4327-A351-EE7367858A63@mac.com> Message-ID: My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just looked it up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of information, or a generic datum. And that spoiled all the fun. On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: >> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: >> >> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of? in terms of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?. > > I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am a writer... > > Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or even four, but it's not technically *correct.* > > I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true! > > :) > > k -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Wed Sep 8 16:01:39 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:01:39 -0500 Subject: SE Show Globals inverted In-Reply-To: References: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <9a34f9cd-0aa2-bac4-dee7-a2c5b7cc62d4@hyperactivesw.com> And when it happens, all the LC globals show up too regardless of the "Show IDE Stacks in Lists" setting. On 9/8/21 12:56 PM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote: > I've seen it for years too. I never worked out what caused it. But I'm an > inveterate user of the message box when debugging. I will look out for a > pattern to it now. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 6:32 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> This has been going on for years but I never reported it because... lazy. >> For me, it happens when I'm stepping through a handler and I change or >> query something in the message box. >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On September 8, 2021 11:25:24 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >>> Here's a new one. I've noticed this before, that globals were appearing >>> when show globals checkbox was not hilited. I just noticed that during >> this >>> condition, checking the show globals checkbox hides the globals! LOL! >> I'll >>> toss up a bug report later. >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From brian at milby7.com Wed Sep 8 16:20:03 2021 From: brian at milby7.com (Brian Milby) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:20:03 -0400 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E937AFF-B608-48E8-A09D-03E03831A085@milby7.com> Ah, the problem with calling things ?facts? where the data isn?t actually knowable. The number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be accurately known. Kind of like the number of people who watched the Super Bowl. In that context, true fact makes sense (also ?cold hard fact?). While it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being referenced is an actual fact and not an assumed fact. My dad always was clear that ?couple? of minutes was 2 and a few was 3. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:55 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > ?My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. > > Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just looked it up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of information, or a generic datum. > > And that spoiled all the fun. > > On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: >>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of? in terms of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?. >> I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am a writer... >> Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or even four, but it's not technically *correct.* >> I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true! >> :) >> k > > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ahsoftware at sonic.net Wed Sep 8 16:39:28 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:39:28 -0700 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <9E937AFF-B608-48E8-A09D-03E03831A085@milby7.com> References: <9E937AFF-B608-48E8-A09D-03E03831A085@milby7.com> Message-ID: On 9/8/21 1:20 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote: > Ah, the problem with calling things ?facts? where the data isn?t actually knowable. The number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be accurately known. Kind of like the number of people who watched the Super Bowl. In that context, true fact makes sense (also ?cold hard fact?). While it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being referenced is an actual fact and not an assumed fact. IMO a fact is true. There are no false facts. That being said, a fact is true within its domain space. 'Atoms are indivisible' was a fact until it wasn't. That doesn't make it a false fact, just a false statement. At the time of a fact's creation/utterance/whatever it's true, otherwise it's not a fact. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From mkoob at rogers.com Wed Sep 8 16:41:58 2021 From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:41:58 -0400 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <72684792-76CF-4327-A351-EE7367858A63@mac.com> Message-ID: <3E3EB745-07E7-4B5B-BB33-DDEED5716080@rogers.com> Hi Jacqueline That?s funny, I was assuming that it was a male / female language usage issue. It would be odd if coders saw ?couple? not being an arbitrary number but one with some flexibility and not coders not. (Although if your husband is also a coder that would blow that theory out of the water. ) I would think the opposite would be true. The coders I would think would think arbitrary values instead of fuzzy variables. Our disagreement over ?couple? is the same as yours over ?facts?? friendly, amusing and kind of yet not totally false. eg. asked to chop up a couple of carrots I will ask how many exactly. "Two" is the reply?.. and then the ?argument? starts. Sad to hear that looking up the facts about ?facts" ruined your ongoing argument about ?facts?. But maybe there are alternative facts that state otherwise and you can revive the discussion as to the meaning of ?facts?. Martin > On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:54 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. > > Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just looked it up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of information, or a generic datum. > > And that spoiled all the fun. > > On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: >>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of? in terms of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?. >> I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am a writer... >> Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or even four, but it's not technically *correct.* >> I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true! >> :) >> k > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 17:02:33 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 21:02:33 +0000 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <9E937AFF-B608-48E8-A09D-03E03831A085@milby7.com> References: <9E937AFF-B608-48E8-A09D-03E03831A085@milby7.com> Message-ID: <77C33DAF-4652-4BB5-8D19-7B1539010D8D@iotecdigital.com> The number of hairs on your head at a given point in space and time are a fact, and can be theoretically known. I always say that once we know everything about a subject, there can be no ambiguity, no "alternate point of view". A fact, or "the truth" about a thing is singular. Whether or not we perceive it is a different question. Bob S > On Sep 8, 2021, at 13:20 , Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote: > > Ah, the problem with calling things ?facts? where the data isn?t actually knowable. The number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be accurately known. Kind of like the number of people who watched the Super Bowl. In that context, true fact makes sense (also ?cold hard fact?). While it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being referenced is an actual fact and not an assumed fact. > > My dad always was clear that ?couple? of minutes was 2 and a few was 3. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:55 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: >> >> ?My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. >> >> Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just looked it up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of information, or a generic datum. >> >> And that spoiled all the fun. >> >> On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of? in terms of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?. >>> I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am a writer... >>> Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or even four, but it's not technically *correct.* >>> I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true! >>> :) >>> k >> >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Wed Sep 8 17:21:52 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:21:52 -0500 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <9E937AFF-B608-48E8-A09D-03E03831A085@milby7.com> Message-ID: On 9/8/21 3:39 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote: > On 9/8/21 1:20 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote: >> Ah, the problem with calling things ?facts? where the data isn?t actually knowable.? The >> number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be accurately known.? Kind of like >> the number of people who watched the Super Bowl.? In that context, true fact makes sense >> (also ?cold hard fact?).? While it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being >> referenced is an actual fact and not an assumed fact. > > IMO a fact is true. There are no false facts. > That being said, a fact is true within its domain space. > 'Atoms are indivisible' was a fact until it wasn't. > That doesn't make it a false fact, just a false statement. > At the time of a fact's creation/utterance/whatever it's true, otherwise it's not a fact. > Oh cool. Now we can go back to arguing again. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Wed Sep 8 17:34:02 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:34:02 -0500 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <9E937AFF-B608-48E8-A09D-03E03831A085@milby7.com> References: <9E937AFF-B608-48E8-A09D-03E03831A085@milby7.com> Message-ID: <04a96d0c-0275-5e24-1a9c-c1c532af714a@hyperactivesw.com> On 9/8/21 3:20 PM, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote: > Ah, the problem with calling things ?facts? where the data isn?t actually knowable. The number of hairs on my head is a fact but not one that can be accurately known. Kind of like the number of people who watched the Super Bowl. In that context, true fact makes sense (also ?cold hard fact?). While it should be redundant, it emphasizes that the data being referenced is an actual fact and not an assumed fact. Spoilsport. :P -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From mark at livecode.com Wed Sep 8 17:43:06 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 22:43:06 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C97E8E7-B67C-46E4-89FF-3939D668D4FA@livecode.com> Heh - I think you are both right in different contexts... For sure, when used as a noun in isolation (a couple) it refers to two - specifically either a pair of parallel but opposing forces (physics) or a pair of (usually romantically) involved individuals (some might wryly suggest that these two things are much the same ;) ). I?d say though that when applied to another noun, it generally implies ?some? - not two specifically, or even three - but a definitely small number. In fact I think it?s slightly more subtle than that in general usage though... If applied to something which can be counted discretely (eg facts) - ?a couple of? implies a likelihood it was almost certainly two, but maybe three (as the exact number wasn?t really important). However, if applied to something which is continuous (and perhaps more importantly something humans are not that great at accurately estimating - eg time) it rarely means two exactly... After all when was the last time you said to someone - ?I?ll just be a couple of minutes? and were, indeed, exactly 120 seconds? ;) Sent from my iPhone > On 8 Sep 2021, at 20:55, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > ?My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. > > Addendum: he claims there are "true facts." I say that is redundant, that a fact is by definition true, and he's implying there are false facts (or as we say in the US, "alternative facts.") This has been going on for years. It's a friendly, amusing, kind of false disagreement. Then one day we just looked it up in the dictionary and...a fact can either be a true bit of information, or a generic datum. > > And that spoiled all the fun. > > On 9/8/21 6:14 AM, Keith Martin via use-livecode wrote: >>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:04 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of? in terms of counting. I say it means around 2 or 3ish. She says it means 2. Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ?a few?. >> I'm the kind of person that distinguishes between 'like' (exclusive: similar to but not) and 'such as' (inclusive: similar to and part of the comparison set), so this is coming from a position of pedantry, but that's because I am a writer... >> Strictly speaking, 'a couple' means two, no more and no less. In casual use (when counting, not when referring to relationship partnerships) it isn't unusual for it to be used in place of 'a few' and possibly mean three or even four, but it's not technically *correct.* >> I too hope your wife's logic is what holds true! >> :) >> k > > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Sep 8 17:49:35 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:49:35 +0200 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <72684792-76CF-4327-A351-EE7367858A63@mac.com> Message-ID: How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to each other or however you would call that. e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more than 40 years. Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) > Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode : > > My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. From paulmcclernan at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 17:54:08 2021 From: paulmcclernan at gmail.com (Paul McClernan) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 17:54:08 -0400 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: Well I've wanted to contribute more, and have as time allowed. I first had to learn how to use GitHub before I could even start to contribute, and did appreciate the hand holding I got from the team along the way. But understand that LC needs to be very careful and methodical about what they merged into their main repo, this made even contributing simple spelling fixes to the docs (which also requires some understanding of .markdown used in .lcdoc) a tedious task. Additionally,in don't think it was clear to a some users a lot of the IDE/libs are bootstrapped and so one only needs an understanding of LCScript to contribute changes. Contributing to the engine code, however, is not the only way Community could contribute. I jumped on the chance to extend the possibilities by learning LCBuilder once that became available, made all of my LCB work open source in Hope's of encouraging and helping others to get over the learning curve inherent in that. Community freely supporting other members of the community should also be valued. I will likely get on board LC10 train at some point, when I know more about the improvements being made to it, beyond syntax changea and a faster HTML5 engine. But I also plan to try to improve and maintain my own fork of LCC, and I hope others will explore the many possibilities with that as well. I've already fixed a bug that I reported back in April in my fork(s) and added a link to my fix to that bugzilla report. https://github.com/PaulMcClernan/LiveCodeCommunity-IDE-DontPanicEdition On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 7:56 AM David Bovill via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. > > Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly > struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the > next level and they need more revenue to do that. > > The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. Personally > I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the projects I > work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially by > a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue > with developing with the community edition and help build an open source > community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively easy, > the latter a lot of work. > > I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source > products that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, and > the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode Ltd? > As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to > take control and responsibility for the core language. > > There are a number of options with regard to future language development, > that would put the language on an even par with other open source > languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It > would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. > > How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We > can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and > discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? > > > ? Schedule a call with me > On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > > > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > > > > Abso-frogging-lutely. > > > > The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we > could do about it?? > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > David Glasgow > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > Honorary Professor > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > Nottingham Trent University > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 18:03:16 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 22:03:16 +0000 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <6C97E8E7-B67C-46E4-89FF-3939D668D4FA@livecode.com> References: <6C97E8E7-B67C-46E4-89FF-3939D668D4FA@livecode.com> Message-ID: <0CC1F58E-40E8-4E84-85BF-4F07E3EC27B5@iotecdigital.com> Okay I told you don't make me come over there and separate you two! ;-) This actually touches on the arbitrary nature of language. A word only means something because all the parties who want to use that word, agree (whether or not they think they do) that this word will mean this thing. If over time, a culture begins to use the word in a different way or differently in other contexts, it's not because of anything intrinsic to the word, but simply because the parties or societies decided (whether or not they think they have) to "renegotiate". Therefore your argument (Jacque) has no meaning. Sorry to disappoint you. Bob S > On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:43 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > > Heh - I think you are both right in different contexts... > > For sure, when used as a noun in isolation (a couple) it refers to two - specifically either a pair of parallel but opposing forces (physics) or a pair of (usually romantically) involved individuals (some might wryly suggest that these two things are much the same ;) ). > > I?d say though that when applied to another noun, it generally implies ?some? - not two specifically, or even three - but a definitely small number. From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 18:04:15 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 22:04:15 +0000 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <72684792-76CF-4327-A351-EE7367858A63@mac.com> Message-ID: <0FB8A7BA-1E41-4471-BBFD-14B5880D42A7@iotecdigital.com> Then what does a few mean? Bob S > On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) > > 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 > 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes > > 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. > 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes > > > In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. > And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to each other or however you would call that. > e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more than 40 years. > > Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) > > >> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode : >> >> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Sep 8 18:08:55 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:08:55 +0200 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <0FB8A7BA-1E41-4471-BBFD-14B5880D42A7@iotecdigital.com> References: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <72684792-76CF-4327-A351-EE7367858A63@mac.com> <0FB8A7BA-1E41-4471-BBFD-14B5880D42A7@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <6F39E62F-51B7-47C6-B1F4-B362D29D5B85@m-r-d.de> More than three. > Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : > > Then what does a few mean? > > Bob S > > >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) >> >> 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 >> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes >> >> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. >> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes >> >> >> In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. >> And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to each other or however you would call that. >> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more than 40 years. >> >> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) >> >> >>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode : >>> >>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Sep 8 18:13:28 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:13:28 +0200 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <6F39E62F-51B7-47C6-B1F4-B362D29D5B85@m-r-d.de> References: <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <72684792-76CF-4327-A351-EE7367858A63@mac.com> <0FB8A7BA-1E41-4471-BBFD-14B5880D42A7@iotecdigital.com> <6F39E62F-51B7-47C6-B1F4-B362D29D5B85@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <7BDBE2A9-3669-4C1C-A9AF-19446194E99E@m-r-d.de> Btw. this is how Merriam-Webster thinks about couple, few and several. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/couple-few-several-use > Am 09.09.2021 um 00:08 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode : > > More than three. > > > >> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : >> >> Then what does a few mean? >> >> Bob S >> >> >>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) >>> >>> 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 >>> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes >>> >>> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. >>> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes >>> >>> >>> In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. >>> And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to each other or however you would call that. >>> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more than 40 years. >>> >>> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) >>> >>> >>>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode : >>>> >>>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From harrison at all-auctions.com Wed Sep 8 18:19:05 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 18:19:05 -0400 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: <5B4A4140-928D-4BE0-B802-F67E4C352047@pidigital.co.uk> References: <4BA1AB9E-39A0-424B-9BD1-4A4CD6E3EB8D@all-auctions.com> <5B4A4140-928D-4BE0-B802-F67E4C352047@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: <7DEAD750-0293-4512-A7E9-F8DB213EE5B6@all-auctions.com> Hi Sean, If you just want to show the table in an email why not just send an image of it? Create a screenshot of the table and email it. Are you trying to send just one or a lot of them over a period of time? Rick > On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:42 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > > I just wanted a simple way of showing it without all the extra coding rigmarole. Especially in html. > > Sean Cole > Pi Digital Productions Ltd > > eMail Ts & Cs > From mkoob at rogers.com Wed Sep 8 18:32:38 2021 From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 18:32:38 -0400 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <6C97E8E7-B67C-46E4-89FF-3939D668D4FA@livecode.com> References: <6C97E8E7-B67C-46E4-89FF-3939D668D4FA@livecode.com> Message-ID: <786BE886-1D20-4123-A4B8-E64355657469@rogers.com> This reminds me of the counting instructions for the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. https://montypython.fandom.com/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade_of_Antioch 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.' So could this also match the definition of ?couple? for counting things ? 3 , 2 if on the way to 3, but 1 one is not mentioned and 5 is right out. Martin > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:43 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > > Heh - I think you are both right in different contexts... > > For sure, when used as a noun in isolation (a couple) it refers to two - specifically either a pair of parallel but opposing forces (physics) or a pair of (usually romantically) involved individuals (some might wryly suggest that these two things are much the same ;) ). > > I?d say though that when applied to another noun, it generally implies ?some? - not two specifically, or even three - but a definitely small number. > > In fact I think it?s slightly more subtle than that in general usage though... > > If applied to something which can be counted discretely (eg facts) - ?a couple of? implies a likelihood it was almost certainly two, but maybe three (as the exact number wasn?t really important). > > However, if applied to something which is continuous (and perhaps more importantly something humans are not that great at accurately estimating - eg time) it rarely means two exactly... > > After all when was the last time you said to someone - ?I?ll just be a couple of minutes? and were, indeed, exactly 120 seconds? ;) From bdrunrev at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 18:57:09 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:09 +0100 Subject: SE Show Globals inverted In-Reply-To: <54cf04f6-dd29-321f-5e3e-69d44274b750@cogapp.com> References: <17bc6772fe8.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <54cf04f6-dd29-321f-5e3e-69d44274b750@cogapp.com> Message-ID: Yes. I've also seen crashes on non-conditional breakpoints. I literally save before any test run. Then at suitable junctures I intercept savestack (+ controlKey down) to write the stack out as Json + script only stack and commit it all to my VCS. But again I haven't (yet) noticed a pattern with these things. I did notice that the remote debugger prevents all IDE stack breakpoints from working until the app is closed on a test device. For a long time I couldn't understand why breakpoints had stopped working and why no-one else was having this problem. Then finally it struck me that there may only be a small group of us using remote debugger (+ Android). On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 8:50 PM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > And while we're confessing laziness, my more shameful confession is about > a > crashing bug when using conditional breakpoints. I've become used to being > very wary as soon as I start using these, and saving very often. Have > others > seen this issue? > > From iphonelagi at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 18:57:45 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:45 +0100 Subject: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> <005a01d7a4ac$b2678d60$1736a820$@kestner.de> <829aea92-79b5-2d85-24eb-148c3bf20c57@cogapp.com> Message-ID: Hi Bernard, I didn't make myself clear - it can work for hours with no slowdown at 13,000 lines on an older computer there is just no pattern. Lagi On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 18:54, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large > block comment). On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once > there is that much text. Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine. > > With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone. > > I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has > no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field > to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get > > the slowdown. > > > > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the > > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its > fast > > on both - no consistency > > > > Lagi > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From alex at tweedly.net Wed Sep 8 19:29:42 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:29:42 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <6C97E8E7-B67C-46E4-89FF-3939D668D4FA@livecode.com> References: <6C97E8E7-B67C-46E4-89FF-3939D668D4FA@livecode.com> Message-ID: <7a37f4ea-2acc-c611-ea49-d9aa9e7fba23@tweedly.net> On 08/09/2021 22:43, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > However, if applied to something which is continuous (and perhaps more importantly something humans are not that great at accurately estimating - eg time) it rarely means two exactly... > > After all when was the last time you said to someone - ?I?ll just be a couple of minutes? and were, indeed, exactly 120 seconds? ;) > If I say that, I'm more likely to actually be 120 minutes than 120 seconds :-) Alex. From ahsoftware at sonic.net Wed Sep 8 19:37:05 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:37:05 -0700 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <0CC1F58E-40E8-4E84-85BF-4F07E3EC27B5@iotecdigital.com> References: <6C97E8E7-B67C-46E4-89FF-3939D668D4FA@livecode.com> <0CC1F58E-40E8-4E84-85BF-4F07E3EC27B5@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <195af909-208f-7303-8662-92c2cdfe6181@sonic.net> On 9/8/21 3:03 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > This actually touches on the arbitrary nature of language. A word only means something because all the parties who want to use that word, agree (whether or not they think they do) that this word will mean this thing. If over time, a culture begins to use the word in a different way or differently in other contexts, it's not because of anything intrinsic to the word, but simply because the parties or societies decided (whether or not they think they have) to "renegotiate". +1 There is, I think, a spectrum somewhat as follows: none one a couple very few a few several many very many (a great many) a lot too many all the and the boundaries within the spectrum are squishy -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From alex at tweedly.net Wed Sep 8 19:37:58 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:37:58 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> Message-ID: On 2021-09-08 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >> But >> ???? put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2 >> isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC >> doesn't have 'lists'. >> >> Is it equivalent to >> ?? put true into tVar2[1] >> ?? put true into tVar2[2] >> ?? put true into tVar2[3]??? ?? > and then On 08/09/2021 08:50, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > Yes. > But I'm not sure he meant it :-) He went on to say > A sequence in LC is a numerically-keyed array where the keys range > from 1...the number of elements. > > Admittedly they are (currently) still implemented as a 'normal' array > internally, but they do have different functionality in `repeat for > each element` which iterates in numeric order, and not hash order. This example gives a sequence - but only, basically, by coincidence. A better example would be ?? put [4, 5, 7] into tV Using the 'expansion' I used before - that would be equivalent to ?? put true into tV[4] ?? put true into tV[5] ?? put true into tV[7] not a sequence - and wouldn't preserve ordering in subsequent "repeat for each element". I think that ?? put [4, 5, 7] into tV is actually equivalent to ?? put 4 into tV[1] ?? put 5 into tV[2] ?? put 7 into tV[3] But I'm happy to wait and try it out in the DP. Alex. From ahsoftware at sonic.net Wed Sep 8 19:52:21 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:52:21 -0700 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <38d05a9a-b0f5-eba5-2f7e-c4f8cb63009f@sonic.net> On 9/8/21 4:37 PM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > I think that > > ?? put [4, 5, 7] into tV > > is actually equivalent to > ?? put 4 into tV[1] > ?? put 5 into tV[2] > ?? put 7 into tV[3] > > But I'm happy to wait and try it out in the DP. I would certainly be happier if that turns out to be the case. Otherwise unraveling the hash would be a bit strange. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au Wed Sep 8 20:28:39 2021 From: neville.smythe at optusnet.com.au (Neville Smythe) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:28:39 +1000 Subject: Hi, I'm back for more fish - and a malware query Message-ID: <256B1A8E-2AAA-4339-AA19-64F9D2DB0785@optusnet.com.au> OK, Bob S, so I have jumped through the small hoop and turned through 180 degrees. And I?m impressed even if you were not: that is to say, I am really impressed with the generosity and goodwill of the great people at LC. Many thanks to those who urged me contact Heather and Kevin about licensing, and I heartily echo the sentiment of Erik on the integrity of the company. And now back to business: the very first compilation of a Windows standalone with my brand spanking new 9.6.4 provokes a malware alarm for the Trojan Sabsik.TE.A!ml on a Windows 10 machine. I think it almost certain this is a false positive. My Mac reportedly cannot run or spread this particular malware, and I?m pretty sure the only Windows file on my Mac which could contain it (or rather the code sequence which triggers the alert) would be the Windows engine in LC9.6.4. Just to be sure, because no-one want to take chances with ransomware ? has anyone seen or heard reports like this ? Neville Smythe From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Wed Sep 8 21:05:50 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 01:05:50 +0000 Subject: Hi, I'm back for more fish - and a malware query In-Reply-To: <256B1A8E-2AAA-4339-AA19-64F9D2DB0785@optusnet.com.au> References: <256B1A8E-2AAA-4339-AA19-64F9D2DB0785@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: I?ve seen false positives just by downloading new signature files, but not specifically for Livecode, but I seem to recall someone on this list having an issue. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 8, 2021, at 17:29, Neville Smythe via use-livecode wrote: > > ?OK, Bob S, so I have jumped through the small hoop and turned through 180 degrees. And I?m impressed even if you were not: that is to say, I am really impressed with the generosity and goodwill of the great people at LC. > > Many thanks to those who urged me contact Heather and Kevin about licensing, and I heartily echo the sentiment of Erik on the integrity of the company. > > And now back to business: the very first compilation of a Windows standalone with my brand spanking new 9.6.4 provokes a malware alarm for the Trojan Sabsik.TE.A!ml on a Windows 10 machine. > > I think it almost certain this is a false positive. My Mac reportedly cannot run or spread this particular malware, and I?m pretty sure the only Windows file on my Mac which could contain it (or rather the code sequence which triggers the alert) would be the Windows engine in LC9.6.4. Just to be sure, because no-one want to take chances with ransomware ? has anyone seen or heard reports like this ? > > Neville Smythe > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 8 22:43:42 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 03:43:42 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: <7DEAD750-0293-4512-A7E9-F8DB213EE5B6@all-auctions.com> References: <7DEAD750-0293-4512-A7E9-F8DB213EE5B6@all-auctions.com> Message-ID: <7E7B3F48-F951-40DF-AB79-A040104DE604@pidigital.co.uk> Hi Rick Because, as stated before, you can?t select the text and paste it into a spreadsheet. Thanks though. Sean > On 8 Sep 2021, at 23:19, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Hi Sean, > > If you just want to show the table in an email why not just send > an image of it? Create a screenshot of the table and email it. > Are you trying to send just one or a lot of them over a period of time? > > Rick > >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:42 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I just wanted a simple way of showing it without all the extra coding rigmarole. Especially in html. >> >> Sean Cole >> Pi Digital Productions Ltd >> >> eMail Ts & Cs >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jiml at netrin.com Wed Sep 8 22:46:03 2021 From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 19:46:03 -0700 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FD6BFA7-28BA-4644-8624-C55E0A218D45@netrin.com> > Matthias wrote: > > 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. Ich kann Deutsch. Aber nur ein paar W?rter. Jim Lambert From harrison at all-auctions.com Thu Sep 9 00:29:24 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:29:24 -0400 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: <7E7B3F48-F951-40DF-AB79-A040104DE604@pidigital.co.uk> References: <7DEAD750-0293-4512-A7E9-F8DB213EE5B6@all-auctions.com> <7E7B3F48-F951-40DF-AB79-A040104DE604@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Sean, Why don?t you just email them a spreadsheet or a .csv file, let them open it. and they can copy and paste whatever they want into their own spreadsheet? Rick > On Sep 8, 2021, at 10:43 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Rick > > Because, as stated before, you can?t select the text and paste it into a spreadsheet. > > Thanks though. > > Sean From mark at livecode.com Thu Sep 9 01:40:59 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:40:59 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <829552f6f536fbc8c44538f1924ecf9e@livecode.com> On 2021-09-09 00:37, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > On 2021-09-08 01:33, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > >>> But >>> ???? put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2 >>> isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC >>> doesn't have 'lists'. >>> >>> Is it equivalent to >>> ?? put true into tVar2[1] >>> ?? put true into tVar2[2] >>> ?? put true into tVar2[3]??? ?? >> > and then On 08/09/2021 08:50, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: >> Yes. >> > But I'm not sure he meant it :-) No - 'he' didn't mean that ;) I failed to look properly at the LHS of the puts in your example :D put [1, 2, 3] into tVar2 is equivalent to: put 1 into tVar2[1] put 2 into tVar2[2] put 3 into tVar2[3] Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From scott at elementarysoftware.com Thu Sep 9 03:25:47 2021 From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (scott at elementarysoftware.com) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:25:47 -0700 Subject: randomSeed maximum length Message-ID: Does the randomSeed have a maximum length? Meaning, if the length of the provided number exceeds the maximum length, does the provided number get truncated or dismissed or? ? -- Scott Morrow Elementary Software (Now with 20% less chalk dust!) web https://elementarysoftware.com/ email scott at elementarysoftware.com booth 1-360-734-4701 ------------------------------------------------------ From mark at livecode.com Thu Sep 9 03:38:33 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:38:33 +0100 Subject: randomSeed maximum length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001fb366f0120dd5b164f10d5e4db07c@livecode.com> On 2021-09-09 08:25, scott--- via use-livecode wrote: > Does the randomSeed have a maximum length? > > Meaning, if the length of the provided number exceeds the maximum > length, does the provided number get truncated or dismissed or? ? Its a signed 32-bit integer - so range is -2147483648 to 2147483647. Numbers outside of this appear to end up setting it to -2147483648. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From scott at elementarysoftware.com Thu Sep 9 03:53:36 2021 From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (scott at elementarysoftware.com) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:53:36 -0700 Subject: randomSeed maximum length In-Reply-To: <001fb366f0120dd5b164f10d5e4db07c@livecode.com> References: <001fb366f0120dd5b164f10d5e4db07c@livecode.com> Message-ID: <99430C10-2AE9-46BC-ADD1-13EBA54132EE@elementarysoftware.com> Thank you, Mark. That confirms the issue (and workaround) I was having when using the millisec to set the randomSeed. -- Scott Morrow Elementary Software (Now with 20% less chalk dust!) web https://elementarysoftware.com/ email scott at elementarysoftware.com booth 1-360-734-4701 ------------------------------------------------------ > On Sep 9, 2021, at 12:38 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > > On 2021-09-09 08:25, scott--- via use-livecode wrote: >> Does the randomSeed have a maximum length? >> Meaning, if the length of the provided number exceeds the maximum >> length, does the provided number get truncated or dismissed or? ? > > Its a signed 32-bit integer - so range is -2147483648 to 2147483647. > > Numbers outside of this appear to end up setting it to -2147483648. > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. > > -- > Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From dvglasgow at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 04:33:00 2021 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:33:00 +0100 Subject: Text encoding: summary of results and times. In-Reply-To: References: <7be1e6da-9c28-2606-31d0-cf372710a23b@tweedly.net> <92653c1d-3bae-7777-62c5-69d0d0fd45f5@tweedly.net> <2632d3b3-e851-96ee-3352-fd8c783f3c74@tweedly.net> <2454C051-64DB-4B23-A04D-9D9E38D20B62@iotecdigital.com> <4A7C28B8-E946-45EB-827C-063F0A152AD6@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <116C242E-AD82-430B-94CD-759F04B509B6@gmail.com> So if someone has a cross platform (Win/Mac) app designed to process text files of various and unknown formats and provenance, is there some incantation process which would ensure it is best prepared for lots of finding and filtering? Best wishes David Glasgow From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Sep 9 04:35:49 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:35:49 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A626BB8-F8B2-4491-A402-6F16E302A4EE@pidigital.co.uk> Hehe. Full of ?solutions? :) It?s because we need to see it as a table in an email :D That?s the point of the question. Here?s my full process if it helps you understand. I (that is to say, a server I code and manage) process around 100-120 emails a day from the mobile (cell phone) carriers O2 and EE. They all get done at about 5am every day at including weekends. Some have call data in them and some do not. Some have broken csv?s in them. Myself and others in the team need to quickly know when it breaks so we can look into it. So, to be absolutely sure, we email ourselves every morning a list of which emails have been processed for all of the clients (4 so far). It has the details of the email UID, the customer name, the client(or Dealer as we call them) name, the date range, the account number, number of Kb, and a bunch of other relevant data to us. This list has grown. Each line has a of course a different length and does not format out like the table it is put into in LC. The purpose of the email is a forceful reminder to us to check. The subject let?s us know immediately if there may be issues by telling us how many got processed and how many had data and how many are potentially broken. These can only be indicators. We find ourselves in the rubbish position of checking it over by eye. We ?could? have it sent to a database, or show up in an app or all manner of other methods but by far and away the simplest way for us to daily get this reminder is by a simple email with a heading and a list. Email is a system with a long track record of ?working?. The fact that email still exists is testament to this. A quick scan over this daily doc helps us quickly see which ones we?ve already checked, what potential issues there are and, more importantly for me, if the remote server had completely fallen over. No need to open any links or other software to view quickly a stream of data. It?s easier to recall and delete than our mySQL database. Email is just there, always. So, the ability to quickly convert our little table from a text field on the server into the body of an email is what I?m looking to do. I had expected the mime field encoder to do this but it seems it?s only very simple in its view of a field. The data returned from ?the htmlText of field? is so long and convoluted and also does not contain either the correct formatting or table info suitable for email. So, it looks like if I have to do it I will have to code a whole html method for expressing it as a table in an email body that email will accept and display as expected. That?s why I had ?hoped? that the MIME encoder already did it for us. Alas, negatory! I didn?t want to have to have put all this into an email when asking the question and ?hoped? that a simple question would suffice to get a simple answer (which MarkW was gracious to provide from the most qualified position I know). But, seriously, thank you for your interest and attempts to offer useful suggestions. Sometimes what sounds like a simple answer actually just overcomplicates the ?end user experience?. Something we as software engineers should be ever aware of ;) Thanks again Sean Pi Digital > On 9 Sep 2021, at 05:29, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Hi Sean, > > Why don?t you just email them a spreadsheet or a .csv file, > let them open it. and they can copy and paste whatever they want > into their own spreadsheet? > > Rick > > >> On Sep 8, 2021, at 10:43 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi Rick >> >> Because, as stated before, you can?t select the text and paste it into a spreadsheet. >> >> Thanks though. >> >> Sean > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bdrunrev at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 04:38:58 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:38:58 +0100 Subject: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: <1AAD6A98-01C1-4624-B448-8CF9566B981B@andregarzia.com> <6558DC90-E700-433B-9CCE-0A7405C8068B@elementarysoftware.com> <005a01d7a4ac$b2678d60$1736a820$@kestner.de> <829aea92-79b5-2d85-24eb-148c3bf20c57@cogapp.com> Message-ID: Hi Lagi I just went back and repeated my steps from a couple of days ago. New start for IDE, new stack, pasted in the same 8,000 lines as a comment. And this time there was no slow down. So it does look like any such problems are less predictable than my initial test suggested. I toggled on then off all the options in the Script Editor related to autocomplete, etc. And no matter what state they were in made no difference. In the light of this unreproduceability - how can LC be expected to identify/fix this problem? It may not even be within their control and certainly they can't start to spend resources investigating it if the professional programmers using LC on Win10 can't identify a predicable pattern. I took my 8,000 lines of text and re-started the IDE multiple times. And then I added 50% more to the comment. It does seem that the longer the script is the more likely that your treacle problem is going to appear. Perhaps if you tried this you could come up with a more definite pattern and if so, then LC could look at why it is that a 8000, 12000, 18000 line script causes a slow down. With 12,000 lines even switching off all the Edit/Options made no improvement: adding a return to a line took 3 seconds for the screen to update. What happens if you have a 24,000 line script? Do you get a predictable pattern? Is it always slow? Once you get a predictable recipe then LC Ltd have something they can work on. Personally I'd find a 12,000 line script really hard to navigate. But until LC Ltd specify that there's a length to how long a script can be, there's no reason why you shouldn't have 12,000 line scripts. Yesterday my Win10 laptop totally froze. I had open only two programmes: MS OneNote and Chrome. Even ctrl-alt-delete did nothing. I couldn't even bring up task manager to see what could possibly be using all the resources. After minutes of waiting for it to respond, I went to remove battery and power cable (normal power button is set to hibernate not power off), and suddenly it started to respond again. When I worked in tech support I was the star problem solver. And now I've over 20 years more experience with computing, but these days Windows 10 leaves me scratching my head. MS have done some great things (WSL is one of them). In my experience the weird behaviour I experience with Win10 is much, much rarer on a Mac (I can't remember an incident in 20 years of using a variety of Macs). On a different Win10 machine I have a well-know SQL editor. Whenever it asks if I want to apply an update to it and I click "no", it crashes. It's never been updated since I installed it. But this behaviour only started a few months ago. To me that's really weird. When something works I don't upgrade because it works as is. Regards, Bernard On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:59 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Bernard, > > > I didn't make myself clear - it can work for hours with no slowdown at > 13,000 lines on an older computer there is just no pattern. > > Lagi > > On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 18:54, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large > > block comment). On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once > > there is that much text. Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine. > > > > With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is > gone. > > > > I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he > has > > no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field > > to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle. > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still > get > > > the slowdown. > > > > > > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the > > > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its > > fast > > > on both - no consistency > > > > > > Lagi > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > KIndest Regards Lagi > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From andre at andregarzia.com Thu Sep 9 06:26:54 2021 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:26:54 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <7BDBE2A9-3669-4C1C-A9AF-19446194E99E@m-r-d.de> References: <7BDBE2A9-3669-4C1C-A9AF-19446194E99E@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <23A62E55-9AE2-4D2D-970F-E401CF19F11F@andregarzia.com> I?ll just add that a couple of pints never means exactly two pints?. Language is a very fluid thing. Sent from my iPhone > On 8 Sep 2021, at 23:14, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Btw. this is how Merriam-Webster thinks about couple, few and several. > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/couple-few-several-use > > > >> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:08 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode : >> >> More than three. >> >> >> >>>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : >>> >>> Then what does a few mean? >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) >>>> >>>> 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 >>>> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes >>>> >>>> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. >>>> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes >>>> >>>> >>>> In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. >>>> And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to each other or however you would call that. >>>> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more than 40 years. >>>> >>>> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode : >>>>> >>>>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From heather at livecode.com Thu Sep 9 06:50:35 2021 From: heather at livecode.com (Heather Laine) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:50:35 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <23A62E55-9AE2-4D2D-970F-E401CF19F11F@andregarzia.com> References: <7BDBE2A9-3669-4C1C-A9AF-19446194E99E@m-r-d.de> <23A62E55-9AE2-4D2D-970F-E401CF19F11F@andregarzia.com> Message-ID: <8E2C7D97-81E3-44E3-BAFD-8D1F2AE2E990@livecode.com> Ok, I cannot help myself. Somewhere in this thread was mentioned "a couple of carrots" and this was defined as two. It is in fact not two. It is the equivalent amount of carrots to about 2, if the carrots are well sized but not enormous. If you have small carrots, please chop 3. If they are huge, one is enough. Thus, a couple of carrots. A perfectly sensible request which any sensible husband should be able to interpret correctly. Warmest regards to all, and should I add carrots to cheese as items that should not arise too often for extensive discussion? Heather Heather Laine Customer Services Manager LiveCode Ltd www.livecode.com > On 9 Sep 2021, at 11:26, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: > > I?ll just add that a couple of pints never means exactly two pints?. > > Language is a very fluid thing. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 8 Sep 2021, at 23:14, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> ?Btw. this is how Merriam-Webster thinks about couple, few and several. >> >> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/couple-few-several-use >> >> >> >>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:08 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode : >>> >>> More than three. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : >>>> >>>> Then what does a few mean? >>>> >>>> Bob S >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> >>>>> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) >>>>> >>>>> 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 >>>>> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes >>>>> >>>>> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. >>>>> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. >>>>> And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to each other or however you would call that. >>>>> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more than 40 years. >>>>> >>>>> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode : >>>>>> >>>>>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From richmondmathewson at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 07:22:22 2021 From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond Mathewson) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:22:22 +0300 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: Just as a way of showing off my goofiness: how do I compile LiveCode from your github downloadables? On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 12:55 AM Paul McClernan via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Well I've wanted to contribute more, and have as time allowed. I first had > to learn how to use GitHub before I could even start to contribute, and did > appreciate the hand holding I got from the team along the way. But > understand that LC needs to be very careful and methodical about what they > merged into their main repo, this made even contributing simple spelling > fixes to the docs (which also requires some understanding of .markdown used > in .lcdoc) a tedious task. Additionally,in don't think it was clear to a > some users a lot of the IDE/libs are bootstrapped and so one only needs an > understanding of LCScript to contribute changes. > > Contributing to the engine code, however, is not the only way Community > could contribute. I jumped on the chance to extend the possibilities by > learning LCBuilder once that became available, made all of my LCB work open > source in Hope's of encouraging and helping others to get over the learning > curve inherent in that. Community freely supporting other members of the > community should also be valued. > > I will likely get on board LC10 train at some point, when I know more about > the improvements being made to it, beyond syntax changea and a faster HTML5 > engine. But I also plan to try to improve and maintain my own fork of LCC, > and I hope others will explore the many possibilities with that as well. > > I've already fixed a bug that I reported back in April in my fork(s) and > added a link to my fix to that bugzilla report. > > https://github.com/PaulMcClernan/LiveCodeCommunity-IDE-DontPanicEdition > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 7:56 AM David Bovill via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Here are my thoughts on this - and a request. > > > > Yes - it?s not a surprising move by Livecode Ltd - they were clearly > > struggling supporting the community aspect and taking the language to the > > next level and they need more revenue to do that. > > > > The question is (for my part at least) - what to do about this. > Personally > > I have never seen a future for a closed source language, and the > projects I > > work on will not fund. Projects developed in closed source - especially > by > > a small company. So I have a choice, switch language, or look to continue > > with developing with the community edition and help build an open source > > community around that. The former (switching languages) is relatively > easy, > > the latter a lot of work. > > > > I?m happy to have a company like Livecode Ltd create closed source > > products that I can use, so how to have both an open source language, > and > > the ability to work with closed source products developed by Livecode > Ltd? > > As I see it the only option is for those interested in the community to > > take control and responsibility for the core language. > > > > There are a number of options with regard to future language development, > > that would put the language on an even par with other open source > > languages, and there are also new ways to finance such initiatives. It > > would be valuable to get together as a community and discuss those. > > > > How about having a community conference to look at what is possible? We > > can do this online and showcase new and existing open source projects and > > discuss the opportunities this new environment presents? > > > > > > ? Schedule a call with me > > On 1 Sep 2021, 12:18 +0100, David V Glasgow via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 1 Sep 2021, at 11:26 am, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > There you had a group of programmers who supposedly loved what > > > > HyperCard could do, but they only loved that concept as a historical > > > > artefact, not as a tool available to people now. > > > > > > Abso-frogging-lutely. > > > > > > The really interesting questions are ?why?" and ?Is there anything we > > could do about it?? > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > > > David Glasgow > > > Consultant Forensic & Clinical Psychologist > > > Carlton Glasgow Partnership > > > Director, Child & Family Training, York > > > Honorary Professor > > > Sexual Offences, Crime and Misconduct Research Unit > > > Nottingham Trent University > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > use-livecode mailing list > > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the Agents of a large number of governments in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. From benr_mc at cogapp.com Thu Sep 9 09:23:01 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:23:01 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: <0A626BB8-F8B2-4491-A402-6F16E302A4EE@pidigital.co.uk> References: <0A626BB8-F8B2-4491-A402-6F16E302A4EE@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Sean, Not to wind you up with yet another 'helpful' suggestion... but here's what I would do, if I've understood you correctly. I think you're formatting a nice message in a field using LC styling; then using the Mime Encoder feature to format it to include in an email. But when you try to put a table in the field, it doesn't come out nicely. My suggestion would to be do that, but where you want the table in the field, just put "***TABLE***" or similar. Then do the minimal work to generate the table in HTML format, and insert in the result of the mime encoder, so you end up doing something like put mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField) into tMessageBody replace "***TABLE***" with tHTMLtable in tMessageBody Let the MIME encoder do all the dirty work it does on the messy stuff. Do the straightforward rendering of a table in HTML yourself. Combine the two. My 2c. Apologies if this a lecture on sucking eggs. Ben On 09/09/2021 09:35, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > Hehe. Full of ?solutions? :) > > It?s because we need to see it as a table in an email :D > That?s the point of the question. > > Here?s my full process if it helps you understand. > > I (that is to say, a server I code and manage) process around 100-120 emails a day from the mobile (cell phone) carriers O2 and EE. They all get done at about 5am every day at including weekends. Some have call data in them and some do not. Some have broken csv?s in them. Myself and others in the team need to quickly know when it breaks so we can look into it. > > So, to be absolutely sure, we email ourselves every morning a list of which emails have been processed for all of the clients (4 so far). It has the details of the email UID, the customer name, the client(or Dealer as we call them) name, the date range, the account number, number of Kb, and a bunch of other relevant data to us. This list has grown. Each line has a of course a different length and does not format out like the table it is put into in LC. > > The purpose of the email is a forceful reminder to us to check. The subject let?s us know immediately if there may be issues by telling us how many got processed and how many had data and how many are potentially broken. These can only be indicators. We find ourselves in the rubbish position of checking it over by eye. > > We ?could? have it sent to a database, or show up in an app or all manner of other methods but by far and away the simplest way for us to daily get this reminder is by a simple email with a heading and a list. Email is a system with a long track record of ?working?. The fact that email still exists is testament to this. A quick scan over this daily doc helps us quickly see which ones we?ve already checked, what potential issues there are and, more importantly for me, if the remote server had completely fallen over. No need to open any links or other software to view quickly a stream of data. It?s easier to recall and delete than our mySQL database. Email is just there, always. > > So, the ability to quickly convert our little table from a text field on the server into the body of an email is what I?m looking to do. I had expected the mime field encoder to do this but it seems it?s only very simple in its view of a field. > > The data returned from ?the htmlText of field? is so long and convoluted and also does not contain either the correct formatting or table info suitable for email. > > So, it looks like if I have to do it I will have to code a whole html method for expressing it as a table in an email body that email will accept and display as expected. That?s why I had ?hoped? that the MIME encoder already did it for us. Alas, negatory! > > I didn?t want to have to have put all this into an email when asking the question and ?hoped? that a simple question would suffice to get a simple answer (which MarkW was gracious to provide from the most qualified position I know). > > But, seriously, thank you for your interest and attempts to offer useful suggestions. Sometimes what sounds like a simple answer actually just overcomplicates the ?end user experience?. Something we as software engineers should be ever aware of ;) > > Thanks again > > Sean > Pi Digital > > >> On 9 Sep 2021, at 05:29, Rick Harrison via use-livecode wrote: >> >> ?Hi Sean, >> >> Why don?t you just email them a spreadsheet or a .csv file, >> let them open it. and they can copy and paste whatever they want >> into their own spreadsheet? >> >> Rick >> >> >>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 10:43 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi Rick >>> >>> Because, as stated before, you can?t select the text and paste it into a spreadsheet. >>> >>> Thanks though. >>> >>> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From mark at livecode.com Thu Sep 9 10:18:44 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:18:44 +0100 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: On 2021-09-08 22:54, Paul McClernan via use-livecode wrote: > I've already fixed a bug that I reported back in April in my fork(s) > and > added a link to my fix to that bugzilla report. > > https://github.com/PaulMcClernan/LiveCodeCommunity-IDE-DontPanicEdition At this point in any changed relationship, it?s necessary to set out the new terms, as amicably as possible. Each side needs to clearly understand where they can and cannot go now. As our move away from supporting Open Source LiveCode is still very new, it?s likely the ramifications are not as yet understood. I have to ask you (and anyone involved in that project, or any other forks) politely not to submit any changes back to bugzilla or anywhere else associated with LiveCode Ltd. as it creates a business risk for us. We (LiveCode Ltd.) cannot take any code changes you make to your project's version of the LiveCode source-code and use them in our commercial code as (by default) it will be GPLv3 licensed, and the copyright of that will be held by the person who authored the changes; just as you cannot change the license from GPLv3 nor copyright attribution (LiveCode Ltd.) - whether explicit or implicit - of any existing line of code in your project's fork of the LiveCode repositories, nor take any changes which appear from now onwards in any commercial edition to incorporate into your project. When we were running the open source project, we had in place a Contributor's License Agreement which meant that the copyright of any code authored by a contributor in any patch submitted to LiveCode Ltd was assigned to us. However, this only extended to contributions submitted through GitHub, where there was an appropriate immutable record of such submissions and it was universally clear what changes were being made. For obvious reasons, this no longer exists. More generally, I must also ask you not to use the LiveCode mailing list, bug reporting system or LiveCode forums for discussions surrounding your fork - particularly related to plans, ideas, developments and changes which are being or have been made. At no point do I want us to be the target of any sort of public ill-will or indeed lawsuit due to assertions of copyright theft, or appropriation of other people's ideas that were not clearly (whether implicitly or explicitly) proffered to us directly. The only way to ensure that is for any forks (yours included) to stand completely independently and by themselves - with their own communication forums, distinctive product name and distinct branding so there can be no risk of confusion nor appropriation of anything from either side. I should point out that recent events are actually nothing to do with my above words - I would have said the same to any fork maintainer who actively sought to advertise their fork within the existing LiveCode community - as defined by LiveCode's mailing lists, forums, bug reporting system, or any other forum owned and run by LiveCode Ltd. for the purposes of public interaction - or posted links to code changes from that project or on any such forum/system. Indeed, ensuring complete independence really is standard practice when forks are made of open source projects - OpenOffice and LibreOffice spring to mind. We fully respect the legacy we have created in terms of the GPLv3 source-code, copyrighted to LiveCode Ltd., which is forever preserved in the archived GitHub repositories in the LiveCode GitHub account which carry the LiveCode name. We have no issue with any or all forks or open-source GPLv3-based projects which might arise from that legacy. All we ask is that any such project ensures that it respects LiveCode Ltd.'s intellectual property as embodied within that (through its GPLv3 licensed, copyrighted source-code) and also respects LiveCode Ltd.'s right to assert itself as the only entitled user of the LiveCode name, trademarks and brand identity. With all that said, I wish you, and anyone who joins you, well with your endeavour. Have fun! Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From sean at pidigital.co.uk Thu Sep 9 10:35:05 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:35:05 +0100 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: References: <0A626BB8-F8B2-4491-A402-6F16E302A4EE@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: Ben, That's perfect, and kind of what I'd said in one of my previous, although not as succinctly or as well explained. Thanks for this as a way of confirming an idea. (I tend to use {{table}} as my replacement strings. It goes back to my coding back in the 80s/90s) I've put the projects to one side as it was only a 'could you just' request from one of the team and only helps us view it a bit easier. I have bigger fish to fry at the moment. But I'll revisit the thread when I've done it and post the 'solution' for others to use. Thanks again. Sean *Pi Digital * On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 14:23, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Sean, > > Not to wind you up with yet another 'helpful' suggestion... but here's > what I > would do, if I've understood you correctly. > > I think you're formatting a nice message in a field using LC styling; then > using the Mime Encoder feature to format it to include in an email. But > when > you try to put a table in the field, it doesn't come out nicely. > > My suggestion would to be do that, but where you want the table in the > field, > just put "***TABLE***" or similar. > > Then do the minimal work to generate the table in HTML format, and insert > in > the result of the mime encoder, so you end up doing something like > > put mimeEncodeFieldAsMIMEMultipartDocument(pField) into > tMessageBody > replace "***TABLE***" with tHTMLtable in tMessageBody > > Let the MIME encoder do all the dirty work it does on the messy stuff. Do > the > straightforward rendering of a table in HTML yourself. Combine the two. > > My 2c. Apologies if this a lecture on sucking eggs. > > Ben > > > On 09/09/2021 09:35, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > > Hehe. Full of ?solutions? :) > > > > It?s because we need to see it as a table in an email :D > > That?s the point of the question. > > > > Here?s my full process if it helps you understand. > > > > I (that is to say, a server I code and manage) process around 100-120 > emails a day from the mobile (cell phone) carriers O2 and EE. They all get > done at about 5am every day at including weekends. Some have call data in > them and some do not. Some have broken csv?s in them. Myself and others in > the team need to quickly know when it breaks so we can look into it. > > > > So, to be absolutely sure, we email ourselves every morning a list of > which emails have been processed for all of the clients (4 so far). It has > the details of the email UID, the customer name, the client(or Dealer as we > call them) name, the date range, the account number, number of Kb, and a > bunch of other relevant data to us. This list has grown. Each line has a of > course a different length and does not format out like the table it is put > into in LC. > > > > The purpose of the email is a forceful reminder to us to check. The > subject let?s us know immediately if there may be issues by telling us how > many got processed and how many had data and how many are potentially > broken. These can only be indicators. We find ourselves in the rubbish > position of checking it over by eye. > > > > We ?could? have it sent to a database, or show up in an app or all > manner of other methods but by far and away the simplest way for us to > daily get this reminder is by a simple email with a heading and a list. > Email is a system with a long track record of ?working?. The fact that > email still exists is testament to this. A quick scan over this daily doc > helps us quickly see which ones we?ve already checked, what potential > issues there are and, more importantly for me, if the remote server had > completely fallen over. No need to open any links or other software to view > quickly a stream of data. It?s easier to recall and delete than our mySQL > database. Email is just there, always. > > > > So, the ability to quickly convert our little table from a text field on > the server into the body of an email is what I?m looking to do. I had > expected the mime field encoder to do this but it seems it?s only very > simple in its view of a field. > > > > The data returned from ?the htmlText of field? is so long and convoluted > and also does not contain either the correct formatting or table info > suitable for email. > > > > So, it looks like if I have to do it I will have to code a whole html > method for expressing it as a table in an email body that email will accept > and display as expected. That?s why I had ?hoped? that the MIME encoder > already did it for us. Alas, negatory! > > > > I didn?t want to have to have put all this into an email when asking the > question and ?hoped? that a simple question would suffice to get a simple > answer (which MarkW was gracious to provide from the most qualified > position I know). > > > > But, seriously, thank you for your interest and attempts to offer useful > suggestions. Sometimes what sounds like a simple answer actually just > overcomplicates the ?end user experience?. Something we as software > engineers should be ever aware of ;) > > > > Thanks again > > > > Sean > > Pi Digital > > > > > >> On 9 Sep 2021, at 05:29, Rick Harrison via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> > >> ?Hi Sean, > >> > >> Why don?t you just email them a spreadsheet or a .csv file, > >> let them open it. and they can copy and paste whatever they want > >> into their own spreadsheet ? > >> > >> Rick > >> > >> > >>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 10:43 PM, Pi Digital via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Rick > >>> > >>> Because, as stated before, you can?t select the text and paste it into > a spreadsheet. > >>> > >>> Thanks though. > >>> > >>> Sean > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Sep 9 10:43:15 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:43:15 -0400 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <23A62E55-9AE2-4D2D-970F-E401CF19F11F@andregarzia.com> References: <7BDBE2A9-3669-4C1C-A9AF-19446194E99E@m-r-d.de> <23A62E55-9AE2-4D2D-970F-E401CF19F11F@andregarzia.com> Message-ID: <002001d7a589$08c156f0$1a4404d0$@net> "Language is a very fluid thing." Yes it is. Up here in NYS we stop off for the "One". Where "one" is from 1 to ... Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Andre Garzia via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2021 6:27 AM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Andre Garzia Subject: Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? I?ll just add that a couple of pints never means exactly two pints?. Language is a very fluid thing. Sent from my iPhone > On 8 Sep 2021, at 23:14, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Btw. this is how Merriam-Webster thinks about couple, few and several. > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/couple-few-several-use > > > >> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:08 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode : >> >> More than three. >> >> >> >>>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : >>> >>> Then what does a few mean? >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) >>>> >>>> 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 >>>> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes >>>> >>>> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. >>>> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes >>>> >>>> >>>> In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. >>>> And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to each other or however you would call that. >>>> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more than 40 years. >>>> >>>> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode : >>>>> >>>>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mkoob at rogers.com Thu Sep 9 11:15:11 2021 From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:15:11 -0400 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <8E2C7D97-81E3-44E3-BAFD-8D1F2AE2E990@livecode.com> References: <7BDBE2A9-3669-4C1C-A9AF-19446194E99E@m-r-d.de> <23A62E55-9AE2-4D2D-970F-E401CF19F11F@andregarzia.com> <8E2C7D97-81E3-44E3-BAFD-8D1F2AE2E990@livecode.com> Message-ID: Hi Heather The mention of carrots was mine. I agree with your logic ?couple" is a fuzzy number which I am fine with (though when it comes to carrots themselves fuzzy is not good.) Yesterday the carrots were very small and striving to be a sensible husband I chopped 5 up. I of course I checked before chopping to make sure that was the correct amount. I wonder if there is a difference between 'a couple carrots' and "a couple OF carrots"? Anyway I agree this carrot thread is getting close to going beyond the line of silliness and maybe should be banished from discussions on the list here along with that other orange food that may not be mentioned here that rhymes with please. Have a good day all. Martin. > On Sep 9, 2021, at 6:50 AM, Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote: > > Ok, I cannot help myself. Somewhere in this thread was mentioned "a couple of carrots" and this was defined as two. It is in fact not two. It is the equivalent amount of carrots to about 2, if the carrots are well sized but not enormous. If you have small carrots, please chop 3. If they are huge, one is enough. Thus, a couple of carrots. A perfectly sensible request which any sensible husband should be able to interpret correctly. > > Warmest regards to all, and should I add carrots to cheese as items that should not arise too often for extensive discussion? > > Heather > > > Heather Laine > Customer Services Manager > LiveCode Ltd > www.livecode.com > > > >> On 9 Sep 2021, at 11:26, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote: >> >> I?ll just add that a couple of pints never means exactly two pints?. >> >> Language is a very fluid thing. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 8 Sep 2021, at 23:14, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> ?Btw. this is how Merriam-Webster thinks about couple, few and several. >>> >>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/couple-few-several-use >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:08 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode : >>>> >>>> More than three. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode : >>>>> >>>>> Then what does a few mean? >>>>> >>>>> Bob S >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 >>>>>> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes >>>>>> >>>>>> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. >>>>>> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. >>>>>> And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to each other or however you would call that. >>>>>> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for more than 40 years. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode : >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Thu Sep 9 11:39:07 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 10:39:07 -0500 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <8E2C7D97-81E3-44E3-BAFD-8D1F2AE2E990@livecode.com> References: <7BDBE2A9-3669-4C1C-A9AF-19446194E99E@m-r-d.de> <23A62E55-9AE2-4D2D-970F-E401CF19F11F@andregarzia.com> <8E2C7D97-81E3-44E3-BAFD-8D1F2AE2E990@livecode.com> Message-ID: <17bcb366990.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Any thread in which two LC team members participate cannot possibly be considered off-topic and subsequently banned. But while I agree completely with your definition, it got me concerned that if I were to marry a very tall, large man, I would be a bigamist. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 9, 2021 5:52:02 AM Heather Laine via use-livecode wrote: > Ok, I cannot help myself. Somewhere in this thread was mentioned "a couple > of carrots" and this was defined as two. It is in fact not two. It is the > equivalent amount of carrots to about 2, if the carrots are well sized but > not enormous. If you have small carrots, please chop 3. If they are huge, > one is enough. Thus, a couple of carrots. A perfectly sensible request > which any sensible husband should be able to interpret correctly. > > Warmest regards to all, and should I add carrots to cheese as items that > should not arise too often for extensive discussion? > > Heather > > > Heather Laine > Customer Services Manager > LiveCode Ltd > www.livecode.com > > > >> On 9 Sep 2021, at 11:26, Andre Garzia via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >> I?ll just add that a couple of pints never means exactly two pints?. >> >> Language is a very fluid thing. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 8 Sep 2021, at 23:14, matthias rebbe via use-livecode >>> wrote: >>> >>> ?Btw. this is how Merriam-Webster thinks about couple, few and several. >>> >>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/couple-few-several-use >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:08 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode >>>> : >>>> >>>> More than three. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Am 09.09.2021 um 00:04 schrieb Bob Sneidar via use-livecode >>>>>> : >>>>> >>>>> Then what does a few mean? >>>>> >>>>> Bob S >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 8, 2021, at 14:49 , matthias rebbe via use-livecode >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> How lucky we Germans are with having to write some words in capitals. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> 'ein Paar' (a couple) means 2 >>>>>> 'ein Paar Schuhe' means a pair of shoes >>>>>> >>>>>> 'ein paar' means two or three or somewhere in the range. >>>>>> 'ein paar Schuhe' means 2 or 3 or somewhere in the range shoes >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In the English lessons in school we learned that for example 'a couple >>>>>> of days' meant 2 or 3 or somewhere in that range. >>>>>> And when we used 'couple' as a noun then it was meant as 2 that belong to >>>>>> each other or however you would call that. >>>>>> e.g. married couple, bird couple. That's the way i use 'couple" now for >>>>>> more than 40 years. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don't tell me that i was wrong more than 40 years. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 08.09.2021 um 21:54 schrieb J. Landman Gay via use-livecode >>>>>>> : >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My husband said the same when I told him about this thread. "Couple" means >>>>>>> two. I said yes, but colloquially it can mean "two or three or somewhere in >>>>>>> that range." We almost started a longer discussion about it, but I reminded >>>>>>> him of our 30+ years of ongoing talk about a "fact" so we both stopped. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From harrison at all-auctions.com Thu Sep 9 11:46:04 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:46:04 -0400 Subject: Send a table in an email. In-Reply-To: <0A626BB8-F8B2-4491-A402-6F16E302A4EE@pidigital.co.uk> References: <0A626BB8-F8B2-4491-A402-6F16E302A4EE@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Sean, Maybe you should have led with your explanation. Cheers, Rick > On Sep 9, 2021, at 4:35 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > > Hehe. Full of ?solutions? :) > > It?s because we need to see it as a table in an email :D > That?s the point of the question. > > Here?s my full process if it helps you understand. > > I (that is to say, a server I code and manage) process around 100-120 emails a day from the mobile (cell phone) carriers O2 and EE. They all get done at about 5am every day at including weekends. Some have call data in them and some do not. Some have broken csv?s in them. Myself and others in the team need to quickly know when it breaks so we can look into it. > > So, to be absolutely sure, we email ourselves every morning a list of which emails have been processed for all of the clients (4 so far). It has the details of the email UID, the customer name, the client(or Dealer as we call them) name, the date range, the account number, number of Kb, and a bunch of other relevant data to us. This list has grown. Each line has a of course a different length and does not format out like the table it is put into in LC. > > The purpose of the email is a forceful reminder to us to check. The subject let?s us know immediately if there may be issues by telling us how many got processed and how many had data and how many are potentially broken. These can only be indicators. We find ourselves in the rubbish position of checking it over by eye. > > We ?could? have it sent to a database, or show up in an app or all manner of other methods but by far and away the simplest way for us to daily get this reminder is by a simple email with a heading and a list. Email is a system with a long track record of ?working?. The fact that email still exists is testament to this. A quick scan over this daily doc helps us quickly see which ones we?ve already checked, what potential issues there are and, more importantly for me, if the remote server had completely fallen over. No need to open any links or other software to view quickly a stream of data. It?s easier to recall and delete than our mySQL database. Email is just there, always. > > So, the ability to quickly convert our little table from a text field on the server into the body of an email is what I?m looking to do. I had expected the mime field encoder to do this but it seems it?s only very simple in its view of a field. > > The data returned from ?the htmlText of field? is so long and convoluted and also does not contain either the correct formatting or table info suitable for email. > > So, it looks like if I have to do it I will have to code a whole html method for expressing it as a table in an email body that email will accept and display as expected. That?s why I had ?hoped? that the MIME encoder already did it for us. Alas, negatory! > > I didn?t want to have to have put all this into an email when asking the question and ?hoped? that a simple question would suffice to get a simple answer (which MarkW was gracious to provide from the most qualified position I know). > > But, seriously, thank you for your interest and attempts to offer useful suggestions. Sometimes what sounds like a simple answer actually just overcomplicates the ?end user experience?. Something we as software engineers should be ever aware of ;) > > Thanks again > > Sean > Pi Digital From ahsoftware at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 11:47:27 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 08:47:27 -0700 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <829552f6f536fbc8c44538f1924ecf9e@livecode.com> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> <829552f6f536fbc8c44538f1924ecf9e@livecode.com> Message-ID: On 9/8/21 10:40 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > ? put [1, 2, 3] into tVar2 > > is equivalent to: > > ? put 1 into tVar2[1] > ? put 2 into tVar2[2] > ? put 3 into tVar2[3] That's still ambiguous, though. Is put [4, 5, 6] into tVar2 equivalent to put 4 into tVar2[1] put 5 into tVar2[2] put 6 into tVar2[3] or put 4 into tVar2[4] put 5 into tVar2[5] put 6 into tVar2[6] -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From mark at livecode.com Thu Sep 9 11:53:03 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 16:53:03 +0100 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> <829552f6f536fbc8c44538f1924ecf9e@livecode.com> Message-ID: <46f698ca8a26dfc85957f45675867046@livecode.com> On 2021-09-09 16:47, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote: > On 9/8/21 10:40 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > >> ? put [1, 2, 3] into tVar2 >> >> is equivalent to: >> >> ? put 1 into tVar2[1] >> ? put 2 into tVar2[2] >> ? put 3 into tVar2[3] > > That's still ambiguous, though. Is > > put [4, 5, 6] into tVar2 > > equivalent to > > put 4 into tVar2[1] > put 5 into tVar2[2] > put 6 into tVar2[3] > > or > > put 4 into tVar2[4] > put 5 into tVar2[5] > put 6 into tVar2[6] The former. [ V1, ..., VN ] denotes a sequence which is an array mapping the key i to Vi. { "K1": V1, ..., "KN": VN } denotes a dictionary which is an array mapping Ki to Vi. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Sep 9 11:57:07 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 11:57:07 -0400 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> <829552f6f536fbc8c44538f1924ecf9e@livecode.com> Message-ID: <002701d7a593$5a1b8ed0$0e52ac70$@net> >put [4, 5, 6] into tVar2 > >equivalent to > > put 4 into tVar2[1] > put 5 into tVar2[2] > put 6 into tVar2[3] > >or > > put 4 into tVar2[4] > put 5 into tVar2[5] > put 6 into tVar2[6] I hope it's the former. What about put ["a","b","c"] into tVar3 Is this that same as put "a" into tVar3[1] put "b" into tVar3[2] put "c" into tVar3[3] ??? Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Mark Wieder via use-livecode Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2021 11:47 AM To: Mark Waddingham via use-livecode Cc: Mark Wieder Subject: Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? On 9/8/21 10:40 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > put [1, 2, 3] into tVar2 > > is equivalent to: > > put 1 into tVar2[1] > put 2 into tVar2[2] > put 3 into tVar2[3] That's still ambiguous, though. Is put [4, 5, 6] into tVar2 equivalent to put 4 into tVar2[1] put 5 into tVar2[2] put 6 into tVar2[3] or put 4 into tVar2[4] put 5 into tVar2[5] put 6 into tVar2[6] -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ahsoftware at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 12:15:19 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:15:19 -0700 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: <46f698ca8a26dfc85957f45675867046@livecode.com> References: <8404b344b09103bf489dd8a9a.1eacf0ebea.20210831165309.d41c8f4f10.847db057@mail116.atl281.mcsv.net> <45A178E1-0C3A-45E8-826D-29327C8D26D0@rogers.com> <7d770240-d4f5-ab54-e3f1-63486a4a9c3a@tweedly.net> <829552f6f536fbc8c44538f1924ecf9e@livecode.com> <46f698ca8a26dfc85957f45675867046@livecode.com> Message-ID: <9a7ec950-8287-9ce4-71ba-c632e1feecfb@sonic.net> On 9/9/21 8:53 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > The former. Yay. Thanks. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From jiml at netrin.com Thu Sep 9 12:26:16 2021 From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:26:16 -0700 Subject: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Jacque wrote: > > But while I agree completely with your definition, it got me concerned that > if I were to marry a very tall, large man, I would be a bigamist. A 24 carat post! From benr_mc at cogapp.com Thu Sep 9 12:27:47 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:27:47 +0100 Subject: RCs and DPs Message-ID: As well as the expected stripping out of community versions from https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/, it seems that all RCs and DPs have gone, leaving only STABLE versions (or have I just mis-remembered that they used all to be there?). Is there going to be a change in how RCs and DPs are made available? Will they appear on that page, at least until superceded by a stable version? Or something else? TIA, Ben From mkoob at rogers.com Thu Sep 9 12:37:31 2021 From: mkoob at rogers.com (Martin Koob) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 12:37:31 -0400 Subject: RCs and DPs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F952F82-1CB0-4CDA-9905-A3976C439F9C@rogers.com> Hi Ben This is a change, they used to be there but then there was a policy change by LiveCode that was announced back in May On May 6, 2021, at 7:25 AM, The LiveCode Team wrote: Policy change regarding old test releases Dear Valued Customer, I'm writing to let you know that in order to optimise space on our servers we are removing old test releases of LiveCode. This should not affect you, as there should be no reason to use these old releases anymore. All older stable releases will remain available, but old releases labelled "dp" or "rc" will be removed from your account and from the download pages on our servers. If you do already have one of these downloads, the licensing will continue to work with it, however I strongly advise you to move to using a stable release, these are test releases and not intended for general use. We will of course continue to offer the rc and dp releases for our latest build/s whilst they are under development. If you think this will affect you, please do feel free to reply to this email, we would be very interested to hear why you are using an older, unstable and unsupported release. Best Regards, Heather Copyright ? 2021 LiveCode Ltd, All rights reserved. You joined this list upon creating an account and confirming your email address at LiveCode.com . From benr_mc at cogapp.com Thu Sep 9 12:56:32 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:56:32 +0100 Subject: RCs and DPs In-Reply-To: <8F952F82-1CB0-4CDA-9905-A3976C439F9C@rogers.com> References: <8F952F82-1CB0-4CDA-9905-A3976C439F9C@rogers.com> Message-ID: <7d824122-1d9b-fd28-1595-6bd257cea5e7@cogapp.com> Aha, thanks Martin - I missed that. cheers, Ben On 09/09/2021 17:37, Martin Koob wrote: > Hi Ben > > This is a change, they used to be there but then there was a policy change by > LiveCode that was announced back in May > > > On May 6, 2021, at 7:25 AM, The LiveCode Team > wrote: > > > Policy change regarding old test releases > > Dear?Valued Customer, > > I'm writing to let you know that in order to optimise space on our servers we > are removing old test releases of LiveCode. This should not affect you, as > there should be no reason to use these old releases anymore. All older stable > releases will remain available, but old releases labelled "dp" or "rc" will be > removed from your account and from the download pages on our servers. If you > do already have one of these downloads, the licensing will continue to work > with it, however I strongly advise you to move to using a stable release, > these are test releases and not intended for general use. > > We will of course continue to offer the rc and dp releases for our latest > build/s whilst they are under development. > > If you think this will affect you, please do feel free to reply to this email, > we would be very interested to hear why you are using an older, unstable and > unsupported release. > > Best Regards, > > Heather > > /Copyright ? 2021 LiveCode Ltd, All rights reserved./ > You joined this list upon creating an account and confirming your email > address at LiveCode.com . > > From bogdanoff at me.com Fri Sep 10 01:56:28 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 01:56:28 -0400 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem Message-ID: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Hi, A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. Peter Bogdanoff bogdanoff at me.com From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Sep 10 04:45:58 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:45:58 +0200 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Message-ID: Dear Peter, i have not an M1, but am always interested what can be produced with LC. I tested your program and noticed that although i switched to English and World i see a button with chinese text on the next page. Regarding your problem. Is it possible by any change that your user is running the app from mounted DMG? At least then it does not go any further after pressing the button with chinese text. The next card, which displays J.S Bach i think, comes up, but the menu in the middle is greyed out and the program stops. When quitting it still prompts if you want to quit. But none of the menu entries work. Regards, Matthias > Am 10.09.2021 um 07:56 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode : > > Hi, > > A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. > > Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? > > https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg > > > This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. > > Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. > > Peter Bogdanoff > bogdanoff at me.com > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bdrunrev at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 07:31:36 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:31:36 +0100 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Message-ID: I tried it on M1. After selecting "English" the next screen is in Chinese. However, going beyond that it is in English. I couldn't detect any problems. I went through half a dozen screens. The only one that didn't load was the Glossary, but a dialogue came up saying that wasn't available in this version. On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 6:57 AM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what > happens? > > From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 08:14:53 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:14:53 +0100 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Message-ID: <10B92A3D-0F78-4C39-8952-216867F120EF@gmail.com> I had the same result as Matthias. Beyond the opening screen and the partial opening of the JSB screen, I was not able to get anything to load. Mark 2017 MacBook Pro running Catalina (10.15.7) > On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:56 AM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi, > > A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. > > Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? > > https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg > > > This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. > > Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. > > Peter Bogdanoff > bogdanoff at me.com > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Sep 10 08:15:17 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:15:17 +0200 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Message-ID: Ouf course i meant Is it possible by any chance.... > Am 10.09.2021 um 10:45 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode : > > Is it possible by any change t From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 08:35:23 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:35:23 +0100 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store Message-ID: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> I am pleased to announce that Organize: A Daily Task Manager (1.1) is now available in the app store, and is free. https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/organize/id1555952717 Ratings and reviews appreciated. Thanks again to everyone who helped make this application possible. Mark From mark at livecode.com Fri Sep 10 09:06:57 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:06:57 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> Message-ID: <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> On 2021-09-02 18:38, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > We will endeavour to fix for 9.6.5-rc-1 (due 'real soon now'!). So I have been prodding the windows 'accumulating large strings' speed problem this week (in amongst other things). It is definitely memory allocation causing the problem. The rule for extending a string buffer when inserting/appending more text is pretty much the same as 6.7 (the amount of 'extra space' it asks for each time is a little less - but changing it to the constant used in 6.7 makes no difference). What is different between 6.7 and 7.0+ is the memory allocation patterns of the engine itself and I think it is this which is invariably causing a whole new buffer having to be allocated when appending to large strings, rather than the existing one being extended. The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would seem - where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which the heaps know about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid that like the plague (which I'm sure is the case for lots of historical reasons and backwards compatibility). [ To give a very rough analogy, the map of used space in a heap on windows is like a block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will be like a block of edam ]. So anyway, long story short, making a string buffer grow in proportion to its size appears to mitigate the problem - I still need to finesse things a bit though to ensure that memory starvation doesn't occur when you have a couple of large mutating strings but all being well we should be able to get something together for 9.6.5-rc-1. The only caveat is that it might cause apps mutating lots of medium->large strings concurrently to take up more memory in general (i.e. in that extra unused 'just in case' space at the end of each buffer) but no more than the same apps would on any other (UNIX-based) platform (and any issue arising from that could be resolved by moving to the 64-bit windows engine). For reference, the bug about the string accumulation problem as posed by Ben is https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23319 (this will also fix the sort speed too - as the final step the sort command performs internally is re-accumulating the string in the new order). Warmest Regards, Mark. P.S. I cannot really say whether this will help with the various 'IDE can be like treacle' on Windows problems - but it definitely can't hurt! -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From mark at livecode.com Fri Sep 10 09:15:23 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:15:23 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> Message-ID: <264b66da1cce5bb97003ab36ec687924@livecode.com> On 2021-09-10 14:06, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would > seem - where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which > the heaps know about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid > that like the plague (which I'm sure is the case for lots of > historical reasons and backwards compatibility). [ To give a very > rough analogy, the map of used space in a heap on windows is like a > block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will be like a block of > edam ]. I of course meant 'Swiss', not 'Edam'! -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From lists at mangomultimedia.com Fri Sep 10 09:40:24 2021 From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:40:24 -0500 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <264b66da1cce5bb97003ab36ec687924@livecode.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> <264b66da1cce5bb97003ab36ec687924@livecode.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 8:15 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > On 2021-09-10 14:06, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > > The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would > > seem - where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which > > the heaps know about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid > > that like the plague (which I'm sure is the case for lots of > > historical reasons and backwards compatibility). [ To give a very > > rough analogy, the map of used space in a heap on windows is like a > > block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will be like a block of > > edam ]. > > I of course meant 'Swiss', not 'Edam'! Thanks for the clarification. I feel like I have a decent understanding of cheeses, but I couldn?t figure out how cheddar and edam were different in this analogy :-) -- Trevor DeVore ScreenSteps > From jiml at netrin.com Fri Sep 10 12:27:47 2021 From: jiml at netrin.com (Jim Lambert) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:27:47 -0700 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cheddar, Edam and Swiss! Very daring references on this list. From bogdanoff at me.com Fri Sep 10 13:12:16 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:12:16 -0400 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Message-ID: Thanks Matthias, Bernard, and Mark! I?m seeing that the issue is probably not processor related. Bernard on an M1 didn?t have trouble. Matthias on Intel did, as well as Mark who didn?t specify what he had?but the bad results do mirror exactly what the Chinese user was seeing on her M1. The final card that becomes unresponsive is because of a semi-opaque overlay that?s a setup for a license activation group to show on top. At that point the program is trying to read a local file that contains the current license info?if the local license file doesn?t exist (new user), it will load the license group with a field to enter a key, or the user can choose to continue with the free limited version. The script is seeming to stop around that point. I?ve been trying to make the problem show for me, including what Matthias suggested?running it from the installer which does seem to work normally. I also tried deleting the pref file containing language and location choices that was written at the opening, in hopes of narrowing it down to an inability to write or read a file from the pref folder in the library. Deleting the pref file caused a script error that shows the standard LC error dialog added by the installer, so it?s not that. So apparently something in my script is failing to complete for some users. This was built with LC 9.6.1. I?ll work on it more? Peter Bogdanoff > On Sep 10, 2021, at 4:45 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Dear Peter, > > i have not an M1, but am always interested what can be produced with LC. > > I tested your program and noticed that although i switched to English and World i see a button with chinese text on the next page. > > Regarding your problem. > Is it possible by any change that your user is running the app from mounted DMG? At least then it does not go any further after pressing the button with chinese text. The next card, which displays J.S Bach i think, comes up, but the menu in the middle is greyed out and the program stops. > When quitting it still prompts if you want to quit. But none of the menu entries work. > > Regards, > Matthias > > > >> Am 10.09.2021 um 07:56 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode : >> >> Hi, >> >> A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. >> >> Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? >> >> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg >> >> >> This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. >> >> Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. >> >> Peter Bogdanoff >> bogdanoff at me.com >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org Fri Sep 10 13:55:13 2021 From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (ELS Prothero) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:55:13 -0700 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> References: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E6B031F-7FC0-4FCB-97B1-945263995B16@earthlearningsolutions.org> Mark, Sorry, I started but didn?t continue to participate in the feedback request for your app. My question, though, is ?what does this app do that just using the calendar can?t?? It could help to state it?s unique capabilities in the app description. Good luck and happy app creation. Best, Bill P. William Prothero https://earthlearningsolutions.org > On Sep 10, 2021, at 5:36 AM, Mark Smith via use-livecode wrote: > > ?I am pleased to announce that Organize: A Daily Task Manager (1.1) is now available in the app store, and is free. > > https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/organize/id1555952717 > > Ratings and reviews appreciated. Thanks again to everyone who helped make this application possible. > > Mark > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mark at canelasoftware.com Fri Sep 10 13:55:46 2021 From: mark at canelasoftware.com (Mark Talluto) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:55:46 -0700 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Message-ID: <03AEB744-14C9-4D84-9D85-2DCC266CDB1B@canelasoftware.com> Hi Peter, Here are my test results: Intel iMac, Catalina I used the Dmg to install the app in my applications folder. I ran the software, picked English (language) and World (location). The software will not let me click on anything beyond this screen: http://www.canelasoftware.com/pub/mita/screen.png -Mark > On Sep 10, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks Matthias, Bernard, and Mark! > > I?m seeing that the issue is probably not processor related. Bernard on an M1 didn?t have trouble. Matthias on Intel did, as well as Mark who didn?t specify what he had?but the bad results do mirror exactly what the Chinese user was seeing on her M1. > > The final card that becomes unresponsive is because of a semi-opaque overlay that?s a setup for a license activation group to show on top. At that point the program is trying to read a local file that contains the current license info?if the local license file doesn?t exist (new user), it will load the license group with a field to enter a key, or the user can choose to continue with the free limited version. The script is seeming to stop around that point. > > I?ve been trying to make the problem show for me, including what Matthias suggested?running it from the installer which does seem to work normally. I also tried deleting the pref file containing language and location choices that was written at the opening, in hopes of narrowing it down to an inability to write or read a file from the pref folder in the library. Deleting the pref file caused a script error that shows the standard LC error dialog added by the installer, so it?s not that. > > So apparently something in my script is failing to complete for some users. This was built with LC 9.6.1. I?ll work on it more? > > Peter Bogdanoff > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 4:45 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Dear Peter, >> >> i have not an M1, but am always interested what can be produced with LC. >> >> I tested your program and noticed that although i switched to English and World i see a button with chinese text on the next page. >> >> Regarding your problem. >> Is it possible by any change that your user is running the app from mounted DMG? At least then it does not go any further after pressing the button with chinese text. The next card, which displays J.S Bach i think, comes up, but the menu in the middle is greyed out and the program stops. >> When quitting it still prompts if you want to quit. But none of the menu entries work. >> >> Regards, >> Matthias >> >> >> >>> Am 10.09.2021 um 07:56 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode : >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. >>> >>> Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? >>> >>> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg >>> >>> >>> This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. >>> >>> Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. >>> >>> Peter Bogdanoff >>> bogdanoff at me.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From brahma at hindu.org Fri Sep 10 14:01:23 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:01:23 +0000 Subject: There is one stack the cause delays - 5 to 10 seconds Message-ID: On any attempt do anything, whether it typing script in script editor, if I change window, or the property browser, wherever we do, there is 5-10 seconds delays. Its impossible to work, or very slow to work in this stack. Could be a pendMessage? 8829,1631295654.762945,revSEDelayTogglePalettes,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revbackscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 8832,1631295654.789005,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 8826,1631295655.076493,__EnsureAccept,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Extensions/com.livecode.library.remotedebugger/remotedebugger.livecode" 8831,1631295655.0909,revUpdateSelectionChanged,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revbackscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 8778,1631295937.884898,autoSave,stack "/Users/brahmanathaswami/Documents/_LiveCode/GITA Tools/Audio_Transcriber_3-3.livecode" 8780,1631295937.934677,autoSave,stack "/Users/brahmanathaswami/Documents/_LiveCode/GITA Tools/Audio_Transcriber_3-3.livecode" I don?t what is going on? BR From bogdanoff at me.com Fri Sep 10 14:01:42 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:01:42 -0400 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <03AEB744-14C9-4D84-9D85-2DCC266CDB1B@canelasoftware.com> References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> <03AEB744-14C9-4D84-9D85-2DCC266CDB1B@canelasoftware.com> Message-ID: <54587DF9-5A0A-4A4D-9A71-B473D2ACAE91@me.com> Thanks Mark, that shows exactly the same issue as others. > On Sep 10, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Mark Talluto via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Peter, > > Here are my test results: > > Intel iMac, Catalina > I used the Dmg to install the app in my applications folder. > > I ran the software, picked English (language) and World (location). > The software will not let me click on anything beyond this screen: > http://www.canelasoftware.com/pub/mita/screen.png > > -Mark > > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Thanks Matthias, Bernard, and Mark! >> >> I?m seeing that the issue is probably not processor related. Bernard on an M1 didn?t have trouble. Matthias on Intel did, as well as Mark who didn?t specify what he had?but the bad results do mirror exactly what the Chinese user was seeing on her M1. >> >> The final card that becomes unresponsive is because of a semi-opaque overlay that?s a setup for a license activation group to show on top. At that point the program is trying to read a local file that contains the current license info?if the local license file doesn?t exist (new user), it will load the license group with a field to enter a key, or the user can choose to continue with the free limited version. The script is seeming to stop around that point. >> >> I?ve been trying to make the problem show for me, including what Matthias suggested?running it from the installer which does seem to work normally. I also tried deleting the pref file containing language and location choices that was written at the opening, in hopes of narrowing it down to an inability to write or read a file from the pref folder in the library. Deleting the pref file caused a script error that shows the standard LC error dialog added by the installer, so it?s not that. >> >> So apparently something in my script is failing to complete for some users. This was built with LC 9.6.1. I?ll work on it more? >> >> Peter Bogdanoff >> >>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 4:45 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Dear Peter, >>> >>> i have not an M1, but am always interested what can be produced with LC. >>> >>> I tested your program and noticed that although i switched to English and World i see a button with chinese text on the next page. >>> >>> Regarding your problem. >>> Is it possible by any change that your user is running the app from mounted DMG? At least then it does not go any further after pressing the button with chinese text. The next card, which displays J.S Bach i think, comes up, but the menu in the middle is greyed out and the program stops. >>> When quitting it still prompts if you want to quit. But none of the menu entries work. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Matthias >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 10.09.2021 um 07:56 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode : >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. >>>> >>>> Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? >>>> >>>> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg >>>> >>>> >>>> This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. >>>> >>>> Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. >>>> >>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>> bogdanoff at me.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr_mc at cogapp.com Fri Sep 10 14:10:03 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:10:03 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> Message-ID: <914924bd-2c6d-f402-20b3-d643b90cf43f@cogapp.com> Hi Mark, Thank you for this, very promising. Only two things puzzled me. One you've already addressed when you corrected the specified cheese. The other was > The only caveat is that it might cause apps mutating lots of medium->large > strings concurrently to take up more memory in general... > ... (and any issue arising from that could be resolved by moving to the 64-bit > windows engine). I have been doing my tests on the 64-bit Windows engine. What am I missing? TIA (and T as always for all your work), Ben On 10/09/2021 14:06, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > On 2021-09-02 18:38, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: >> We will endeavour to fix for 9.6.5-rc-1 (due 'real soon now'!). > > So I have been prodding the windows 'accumulating large strings' speed problem > this week (in amongst other things). > > It is definitely memory allocation causing the problem. > > The rule for extending a string buffer when inserting/appending more text is > pretty much the same as 6.7 (the amount of 'extra space' it asks for each time > is a little less - but changing it to the constant used in 6.7 makes no > difference). What is different between 6.7 and 7.0+ is the memory allocation > patterns of the engine itself and I think it is this which is invariably > causing a whole new buffer having to be allocated when appending to large > strings, rather than the existing one being extended. > > The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would seem - > where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which the heaps know > about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid that like the plague > (which I'm sure is the case for lots of historical reasons and backwards > compatibility). [ To give a very rough analogy, the map of used space in a > heap on windows is like a block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will > be like a block of edam ]. > > So anyway, long story short, making a string buffer grow in proportion to its > size appears to mitigate the problem - I still need to finesse things a bit > though to ensure that memory starvation doesn't occur when you have a couple > of large mutating strings but all being well we should be able to get > something together for 9.6.5-rc-1. > > The only caveat is that it might cause apps mutating lots of medium->large > strings concurrently to take up more memory in general (i.e. in that extra > unused 'just in case' space at the end of each buffer) but no more than the > same apps would on any other (UNIX-based) platform (and any issue arising from > that could be resolved by moving to the 64-bit windows engine). > > For reference, the bug about the string accumulation problem as posed by Ben > is https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=23319 (this will also fix the > sort speed too - as the final step the sort command performs internally is > re-accumulating the string in the new order). > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. > > P.S. I cannot really say whether this will help with the various 'IDE can be > like treacle' on Windows problems - but it definitely can't hurt! > From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 10 14:15:24 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:15:24 -0500 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> <264b66da1cce5bb97003ab36ec687924@livecode.com> Message-ID: <17bd0ebde60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> You're talking about cheese. I'm telling Mom. Nyah. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 10, 2021 8:42:48 AM Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote: > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 8:15 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> On 2021-09-10 14:06, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: >> > The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would >> > seem - where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which >> > the heaps know about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid >> > that like the plague (which I'm sure is the case for lots of >> > historical reasons and backwards compatibility). [ To give a very >> > rough analogy, the map of used space in a heap on windows is like a >> > block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will be like a block of >> > edam ]. >> >> I of course meant 'Swiss', not 'Edam'! > > > Thanks for the clarification. I feel like I have a decent understanding of > cheeses, but I couldn?t figure out how cheddar and edam were different in > this analogy :-) > > -- > Trevor DeVore > ScreenSteps > >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 15:32:46 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:32:46 +0100 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <1E6B031F-7FC0-4FCB-97B1-945263995B16@earthlearningsolutions.org> References: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> <1E6B031F-7FC0-4FCB-97B1-945263995B16@earthlearningsolutions.org> Message-ID: Thanks Bill, One other thing I wanted to address in the announcement, but forgot, was just the sheer reliability of Livecode. I started beta testing 6 months ago, there where 3 rounds of testing and about 19 testers. Not once did TestFlight report a crash (it tracks these for you). When I sent it for app review, it passed on the first attempt in < 24 hours. Same on the 2nd attempt (because I had messed up the screen shots and had to redo them). A huge part of the reliability and credibility of this app must go to Livecode for the development of such a superbly reliable application development environment. It just works, and for that I am immensely grateful. There are 10?s of thousands of lines of code running in that app, most of them not written by me. I am grateful for the attention to detail and professionalism the entire LC team represents. It means a lot. Cheers everyone, and happy coding!! Mark > On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:55 PM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > Sorry, I started but didn?t continue to participate in the feedback request for your app. My question, though, is ?what does this app do that just using the calendar can?t?? It could help to state it?s unique capabilities in the app description. From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 15:41:28 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:41:28 +0100 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Message-ID: Apologies, I should have mentioned it: 2.3 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5 > On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:12 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks Matthias, Bernard, and Mark! > > I?m seeing that the issue is probably not processor related. Bernard on an M1 didn?t have trouble. Matthias on Intel did, as well as Mark who didn?t specify what he had?but the bad results do mirror exactly what the Chinese user was seeing on her M1. > > The final card that becomes unresponsive is because of a semi-opaque overlay that?s a setup for a license activation group to show on top. At that point the program is trying to read a local file that contains the current license info?if the local license file doesn?t exist (new user), it will load the license group with a field to enter a key, or the user can choose to continue with the free limited version. The script is seeming to stop around that point. > > I?ve been trying to make the problem show for me, including what Matthias suggested?running it from the installer which does seem to work normally. I also tried deleting the pref file containing language and location choices that was written at the opening, in hopes of narrowing it down to an inability to write or read a file from the pref folder in the library. Deleting the pref file caused a script error that shows the standard LC error dialog added by the installer, so it?s not that. > > So apparently something in my script is failing to complete for some users. This was built with LC 9.6.1. I?ll work on it more? > > Peter Bogdanoff > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 4:45 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Dear Peter, >> >> i have not an M1, but am always interested what can be produced with LC. >> >> I tested your program and noticed that although i switched to English and World i see a button with chinese text on the next page. >> >> Regarding your problem. >> Is it possible by any change that your user is running the app from mounted DMG? At least then it does not go any further after pressing the button with chinese text. The next card, which displays J.S Bach i think, comes up, but the menu in the middle is greyed out and the program stops. >> When quitting it still prompts if you want to quit. But none of the menu entries work. >> >> Regards, >> Matthias >> >> >> >>> Am 10.09.2021 um 07:56 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode : >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. >>> >>> Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? >>> >>> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg >>> >>> >>> This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. >>> >>> Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. >>> >>> Peter Bogdanoff >>> bogdanoff at me.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org Fri Sep 10 15:58:14 2021 From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:58:14 -0700 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <74C1A41E-7087-4EEF-9FB8-DDB0440CB574@gmail.com> References: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> <1E6B031F-7FC0-4FCB-97B1-945263995B16@earthlearningsolutions.org> <74C1A41E-7087-4EEF-9FB8-DDB0440CB574@gmail.com> Message-ID: <928B8B2F-E52C-4F3E-B30D-CE2C96A2EE7C@earthlearningsolutions.org> Thanks, Mark. I was thinking about it as a scheduler instead of a task reminder. I use the Apple calendar for reminders of appointments mostly. It is a nice job. For me, I have 2 ipads, an iPhone, and a desktop Mac. I like to use my iPad whenever possible because of the screen size. It could be nice if you had an ipad version too and for Apple, it probably wouldn?t require a lot of extra coding, but organizing for a larger screen could be a bit of work. Nice work and it?s great that you had an easy time with the Apple store. Best, Bill P. > On Sep 10, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > Interesting question Bill. I guess the biggest difference is it does not require you to ?sequence? activities according to time (although, yes, scheduling will be in a subsequent version). For now, a typical page might look something like the following? > > > > i > > > And, as the reorder ?action? on the page suggests, you can re-arrange items as you want. It?s a list, and a flexible one at that. Don?t get to a task? There is a row menu that lets you move it to another day/date. Often I find if I don?t get to it today, and tomorrow is not looking any better, I?ll just throw it forward a week and deal with it then. > > It?s primarily a list of tasks you constantly add to, rearrange, reorder, finish, etc. > > Hope that helps. > > Mark > > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:55 PM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Sorry, I started but didn?t continue to participate in the feedback request for your app. My question, though, is ?what does this app do that just using the calendar can?t?? It could help to state it?s unique capabilities in the app description. > William A. Prothero, Ph.D. University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus) Santa Barbara, CA. 93105 http://earthlearningsolutions.org/ From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 15:58:57 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:58:57 +0100 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <74C1A41E-7087-4EEF-9FB8-DDB0440CB574@gmail.com> References: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> <1E6B031F-7FC0-4FCB-97B1-945263995B16@earthlearningsolutions.org> <74C1A41E-7087-4EEF-9FB8-DDB0440CB574@gmail.com> Message-ID: <841F9109-9864-45E4-869E-313D94108C49@gmail.com> Hi Bill, I also use color to represent different categories of activity. All of the ?light blue? items are related to app development, for example, all of the pink items to my consulting business, and orange and green to various training programs I am part of. You can assign colours to categories as you see fit. There will also be a future use for this in a version that adds searching so, for example, you will be able to search for all of the ?app development? items, or all of the ?training? items, etc. But thanks for asking, Mark > On Sep 10, 2021, at 8:16 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > Interesting question Bill. I guess the biggest difference is it does not require you to ?sequence? activities according to time (although, yes, scheduling will be in a subsequent version). For now, a typical page might look something like the following? > > > > i > > > And, as the reorder ?action? on the page suggests, you can re-arrange items as you want. It?s a list, and a flexible one at that. Don?t get to a task? There is a row menu that lets you move it to another day/date. Often I find if I don?t get to it today, and tomorrow is not looking any better, I?ll just throw it forward a week and deal with it then. > > It?s primarily a list of tasks you constantly add to, rearrange, reorder, finish, etc. > > Hope that helps. > > Mark > > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:55 PM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Sorry, I started but didn?t continue to participate in the feedback request for your app. My question, though, is ?what does this app do that just using the calendar can?t?? It could help to state it?s unique capabilities in the app description. > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Sep 10 16:12:23 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:12:23 +0000 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <17bd0ebde60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> <264b66da1cce5bb97003ab36ec687924@livecode.com> <17bd0ebde60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <252E5FDB-F82E-43A1-A98F-291602037A63@iotecdigital.com> I?m going to propound on the politics of holey cheese makers in a moment! Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 10, 2021, at 11:16, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > ?You're talking about cheese. I'm telling Mom. Nyah. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On September 10, 2021 8:42:48 AM Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote: >> >> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 8:15 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>>> On 2021-09-10 14:06, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: >>> > The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would >>> > seem - where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which >>> > the heaps know about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid >>> > that like the plague (which I'm sure is the case for lots of >>> > historical reasons and backwards compatibility). [ To give a very >>> > rough analogy, the map of used space in a heap on windows is like a >>> > block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will be like a block of >>> > edam ]. >>> >>> I of course meant 'Swiss', not 'Edam'! >> >> >> Thanks for the clarification. I feel like I have a decent understanding of >> cheeses, but I couldn?t figure out how cheddar and edam were different in >> this analogy :-) >> >> -- >> Trevor DeVore >> ScreenSteps >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 16:23:51 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:23:51 +0100 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <928B8B2F-E52C-4F3E-B30D-CE2C96A2EE7C@earthlearningsolutions.org> References: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> <1E6B031F-7FC0-4FCB-97B1-945263995B16@earthlearningsolutions.org> <74C1A41E-7087-4EEF-9FB8-DDB0440CB574@gmail.com> <928B8B2F-E52C-4F3E-B30D-CE2C96A2EE7C@earthlearningsolutions.org> Message-ID: <665F87C5-C49A-4381-B41D-E37C68C19D5C@gmail.com> Thanks Bill, I?ll add that to the request list. I developed it on a 6S but went out and bought a 12 today so I could tackle the issue of resizing it for larger devices (something I know I don?t handle very well at the moment). My first reaction after installing Organize on the 12 was ?holy crap? this thing is fast. It just transformed the whole experience for me. (And made LC shine as well I might add). Anyway, once I work how to resize for a 12, I am sure the same method can be applied to things like an iPad. Of course, the request after that will be ?can I sync my iPhone and iPad to-do?s??. That is the fun of this though, isn?t it, once you get started it never ends ? Thanks for the suggestion, its a good one. Mark > On Sep 10, 2021, at 8:58 PM, prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org wrote: > > Thanks, Mark. I was thinking about it as a scheduler instead of a task reminder. I use the Apple calendar for reminders of appointments mostly. It is a nice job. > > For me, I have 2 ipads, an iPhone, and a desktop Mac. I like to use my iPad whenever possible because of the screen size. It could be nice if you had an ipad version too and for Apple, it probably wouldn?t require a lot of extra coding, but organizing for a larger screen could be a bit of work. > > Nice work and it?s great that you had an easy time with the Apple store. > > Best, > Bill P. > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Mark Smith > wrote: >> >> Interesting question Bill. I guess the biggest difference is it does not require you to ?sequence? activities according to time (although, yes, scheduling will be in a subsequent version). For now, a typical page might look something like the following? >> >> >> >> i >> >> >> And, as the reorder ?action? on the page suggests, you can re-arrange items as you want. It?s a list, and a flexible one at that. Don?t get to a task? There is a row menu that lets you move it to another day/date. Often I find if I don?t get to it today, and tomorrow is not looking any better, I?ll just throw it forward a week and deal with it then. >> >> It?s primarily a list of tasks you constantly add to, rearrange, reorder, finish, etc. >> >> Hope that helps. >> >> Mark >> >> >>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:55 PM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Sorry, I started but didn?t continue to participate in the feedback request for your app. My question, though, is ?what does this app do that just using the calendar can?t?? It could help to state it?s unique capabilities in the app description. >> > > William A. Prothero, Ph.D. > University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus) > Santa Barbara, CA. 93105 > http://earthlearningsolutions.org/ From dev at porta.ca Fri Sep 10 16:42:03 2021 From: dev at porta.ca (Dev) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:42:03 -0600 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <665F87C5-C49A-4381-B41D-E37C68C19D5C@gmail.com> References: <665F87C5-C49A-4381-B41D-E37C68C19D5C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9699F7DE-9C23-4A4F-AD1C-0FD936807AE1@porta.ca> Just downloaded it and will give it a look. When you get around to the iPad- please sync through iCloud. It?s the Apple way and works seamlessly for so many apps I have. I even have my LC prefs and plug-ins on iCloud so that they are accessible everywhere easily. Kelly Sent from an iDevice on the go, please excuse brevity & any errors > On Sep 10, 2021, at 2:24 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Thanks Bill, I?ll add that to the request list. I developed it on a 6S but went out and bought a 12 today so I could tackle the issue of resizing it for larger devices (something I know I don?t handle very well at the moment). My first reaction after installing Organize on the 12 was ?holy crap? this thing is fast. It just transformed the whole experience for me. (And made LC shine as well I might add). Anyway, once I work how to resize for a 12, I am sure the same method can be applied to things like an iPad. Of course, the request after that will be ?can I sync my iPhone and iPad to-do?s??. That is the fun of this though, isn?t it, once you get started it never ends ? > > Thanks for the suggestion, its a good one. > > Mark > > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 8:58 PM, prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org wrote: >> >> Thanks, Mark. I was thinking about it as a scheduler instead of a task reminder. I use the Apple calendar for reminders of appointments mostly. It is a nice job. >> >> For me, I have 2 ipads, an iPhone, and a desktop Mac. I like to use my iPad whenever possible because of the screen size. It could be nice if you had an ipad version too and for Apple, it probably wouldn?t require a lot of extra coding, but organizing for a larger screen could be a bit of work. >> >> Nice work and it?s great that you had an easy time with the Apple store. >> >> Best, >> Bill P. >> >>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Mark Smith > wrote: >>> >>> Interesting question Bill. I guess the biggest difference is it does not require you to ?sequence? activities according to time (although, yes, scheduling will be in a subsequent version). For now, a typical page might look something like the following? >>> >>> >>> >>> i >>> >>> >>> And, as the reorder ?action? on the page suggests, you can re-arrange items as you want. It?s a list, and a flexible one at that. Don?t get to a task? There is a row menu that lets you move it to another day/date. Often I find if I don?t get to it today, and tomorrow is not looking any better, I?ll just throw it forward a week and deal with it then. >>> >>> It?s primarily a list of tasks you constantly add to, rearrange, reorder, finish, etc. >>> >>> Hope that helps. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:55 PM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >>>> >>>> Sorry, I started but didn?t continue to participate in the feedback request for your app. My question, though, is ?what does this app do that just using the calendar can?t?? It could help to state it?s unique capabilities in the app description. >>> >> >> William A. Prothero, Ph.D. >> University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus) >> Santa Barbara, CA. 93105 >> http://earthlearningsolutions.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 16:47:13 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:47:13 +0100 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <9699F7DE-9C23-4A4F-AD1C-0FD936807AE1@porta.ca> References: <665F87C5-C49A-4381-B41D-E37C68C19D5C@gmail.com> <9699F7DE-9C23-4A4F-AD1C-0FD936807AE1@porta.ca> Message-ID: <4020808A-5F7D-4000-855D-16D0318AA3AA@gmail.com> Thanks for the suggestion. I?ve added that as well. Cheers, Mark > On Sep 10, 2021, at 9:42 PM, Dev wrote: > > Just downloaded it and will give it a look. When you get around to the iPad- please sync through iCloud. It?s the Apple way and works seamlessly for so many apps I have. I even have my LC prefs and plug-ins on iCloud so that they are accessible everywhere easily. > > Kelly > > Sent from an iDevice on the go, please excuse brevity & any errors > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 2:24 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode wrote: >> >> ?Thanks Bill, I?ll add that to the request list. I developed it on a 6S but went out and bought a 12 today so I could tackle the issue of resizing it for larger devices (something I know I don?t handle very well at the moment). My first reaction after installing Organize on the 12 was ?holy crap? this thing is fast. It just transformed the whole experience for me. (And made LC shine as well I might add). Anyway, once I work how to resize for a 12, I am sure the same method can be applied to things like an iPad. Of course, the request after that will be ?can I sync my iPhone and iPad to-do?s??. That is the fun of this though, isn?t it, once you get started it never ends ? >> >> Thanks for the suggestion, its a good one. >> >> Mark >> >> >>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 8:58 PM, prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, Mark. I was thinking about it as a scheduler instead of a task reminder. I use the Apple calendar for reminders of appointments mostly. It is a nice job. >>> >>> For me, I have 2 ipads, an iPhone, and a desktop Mac. I like to use my iPad whenever possible because of the screen size. It could be nice if you had an ipad version too and for Apple, it probably wouldn?t require a lot of extra coding, but organizing for a larger screen could be a bit of work. >>> >>> Nice work and it?s great that you had an easy time with the Apple store. >>> >>> Best, >>> Bill P. >>> >>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Mark Smith > wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting question Bill. I guess the biggest difference is it does not require you to ?sequence? activities according to time (although, yes, scheduling will be in a subsequent version). For now, a typical page might look something like the following? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> i >>>> >>>> >>>> And, as the reorder ?action? on the page suggests, you can re-arrange items as you want. It?s a list, and a flexible one at that. Don?t get to a task? There is a row menu that lets you move it to another day/date. Often I find if I don?t get to it today, and tomorrow is not looking any better, I?ll just throw it forward a week and deal with it then. >>>> >>>> It?s primarily a list of tasks you constantly add to, rearrange, reorder, finish, etc. >>>> >>>> Hope that helps. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:55 PM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I started but didn?t continue to participate in the feedback request for your app. My question, though, is ?what does this app do that just using the calendar can?t?? It could help to state it?s unique capabilities in the app description. >>>> >>> >>> William A. Prothero, Ph.D. >>> University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus) >>> Santa Barbara, CA. 93105 >>> http://earthlearningsolutions.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 10 16:52:21 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 15:52:21 -0500 Subject: There is one stack the cause delays - 5 to 10 seconds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1853d824-0989-081b-a006-c9889219d285@hyperactivesw.com> Could it be the autosave in GITA Tools? On 9/10/21 1:01 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote: > On any attempt do anything, whether it typing script in script editor, if I change window, or the property browser, wherever we do, there is 5-10 seconds delays. Its impossible to work, or very slow to work in this stack. Could be a pendMessage? > > 8829,1631295654.762945,revSEDelayTogglePalettes,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revbackscriptlibrary.livecodescript" > 8832,1631295654.789005,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" > 8826,1631295655.076493,__EnsureAccept,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Extensions/com.livecode.library.remotedebugger/remotedebugger.livecode" > 8831,1631295655.0909,revUpdateSelectionChanged,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revbackscriptlibrary.livecodescript" > 8778,1631295937.884898,autoSave,stack "/Users/brahmanathaswami/Documents/_LiveCode/GITA Tools/Audio_Transcriber_3-3.livecode" > 8780,1631295937.934677,autoSave,stack "/Users/brahmanathaswami/Documents/_LiveCode/GITA Tools/Audio_Transcriber_3-3.livecode" > > I don?t what is going on? > > BR > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 10 16:56:10 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 15:56:10 -0500 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: References: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> <1E6B031F-7FC0-4FCB-97B1-945263995B16@earthlearningsolutions.org> Message-ID: <916fe141-ad36-b845-5a41-21f8f706acbf@hyperactivesw.com> On 9/10/21 2:32 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode wrote: > Thanks Bill, > > One other thing I wanted to address in the announcement, but forgot, was just the sheer reliability of Livecode. I started beta testing 6 months ago, there where 3 rounds of testing and about 19 testers. Not once did TestFlight report a crash (it tracks these for you). When I sent it for app review, it passed on the first attempt in < 24 hours. Same on the 2nd attempt (because I had messed up the screen shots and had to redo them). A huge part of the reliability and credibility of this app must go to Livecode for the development of such a superbly reliable application development environment. It just works, and for that I am immensely grateful. There are 10?s of thousands of lines of code running in that app, most of them not written by me. I am grateful for the attention to detail and professionalism the entire LC team represents. It means a lot. I agree. I was looking at the developer reports in Google Play yesterday and our app has had zero crashes, freezes, or any other problem that Google tracks. It's been in the store for 6+ months. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Sep 10 17:16:26 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:16:26 -0400 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <916fe141-ad36-b845-5a41-21f8f706acbf@hyperactivesw.com> References: <43C6FCC8-361C-4516-85D7-F1AEBEB5E70F@gmail.com> <1E6B031F-7FC0-4FCB-97B1-945263995B16@earthlearningsolutions.org> <916fe141-ad36-b845-5a41-21f8f706acbf@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Very happy to read these positive reports about the mobile engine. Thanks. On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 4:57 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > On 9/10/21 2:32 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks Bill, > > > > One other thing I wanted to address in the announcement, but forgot, was > just the sheer reliability of Livecode. I started beta testing 6 months > ago, there where 3 rounds of testing and about 19 testers. Not once did > TestFlight report a crash (it tracks these for you). When I sent it for app > review, it passed on the first attempt in < 24 hours. Same on the 2nd > attempt (because I had messed up the screen shots and had to redo them). A > huge part of the reliability and credibility of this app must go to > Livecode for the development of such a superbly reliable application > development environment. It just works, and for that I am immensely > grateful. There are 10?s of thousands of lines of code running in that app, > most of them not written by me. I am grateful for the attention to detail > and professionalism the entire LC team represents. It means a lot. > > I agree. I was looking at the developer reports in Google Play yesterday > and our app has had > zero crashes, freezes, or any other problem that Google tracks. It's been > in the store for 6+ > months. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From brahma at hindu.org Fri Sep 10 22:18:15 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 02:18:15 +0000 Subject: There is one stack the cause delays - 5 to 10 seconds In-Reply-To: <1853d824-0989-081b-a006-c9889219d285@hyperactivesw.com> References: <1853d824-0989-081b-a006-c9889219d285@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: No, it?s not the ?autosave? . I commented to out. But here is something strange: I turned off of the Livecode Then it on. There is in message box openStack [return] 72,1631321454.44635,doExtensionsChanged,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revideextensionlibrary.livecodescript" 3,1631321455.004613,__EnsureAccept,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Extensions/com.livecode.library.remotedebugger/remotedebugger.livecode" 74,1631321456.455547,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 75,1631321456.484995,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 76,1631321456.488533,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 77,1631321456.493232,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 78,1631321456.495876,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 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9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 86,1631321456.532433,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 87,1631321456.53371,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 88,1631321456.537452,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 89,1631321456.538698,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 90,1631321456.541284,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 91,1631321456.543849,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 92,1631321456.547843,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 93,1631321456.550385,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 94,1631321456.573789,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 96,1631321456.584746,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 95,1631321456.586641,ulDeleteLocals,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revliburl.livecodescript" 97,1631321456.588886,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 98,1631321456.593124,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 99,1631321456.59438,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 100,1631321456.597303,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 101,1631321456.600304,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 102,1631321456.603954,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 103,1631321456.608302,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 104,1631321456.611469,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 105,1631321456.614553,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 106,1631321456.61707,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 107,1631321456.619887,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 108,1631321456.622313,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 109,1631321456.630009,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 112,1631321457.432839,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 119,1631321457.822444,updateForSelectedObjectChanged,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revbackscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 121,1631321458.048552,revUpdateScriptEdit,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revfrontscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 125,1631321458.084693,revUpdateScriptEdit,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revfrontscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 122,1631321458.138555,revCloseUpdate,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revfrontscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 126,1631321458.174716,revCloseUpdate,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revfrontscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 129,1631321458.406169,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" 128,1631321458.787634,revUpdateSelectionChanged,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revbackscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 123,1631321459.038601,revCheckStackOpen,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revfrontscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 127,1631321459.074857,revCheckStackOpen,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revfrontscriptlibrary.livecodescript" 124,1631321488.038668,__revInternal_SavePreferences,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/home.livecodescript" On 9/10/21, 10:53 AM, "use-livecode" wrote: Could it be the autosave in GITA Tools? On 9/10/21 1:01 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote: > On any attempt do anything, whether it typing script in script editor, if I change window, or the property browser, wherever we do, there is 5-10 seconds delays. Its impossible to work, or very slow to work in this stack. Could be a pendMessage? > > 8829,1631295654.762945,revSEDelayTogglePalettes,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revbackscriptlibrary.livecodescript" > 8832,1631295654.789005,ideMessageSend,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revidelibrary.8.livecodescript" > 8826,1631295655.076493,__EnsureAccept,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Extensions/com.livecode.library.remotedebugger/remotedebugger.livecode" > 8831,1631295655.0909,revUpdateSelectionChanged,stack "/Applications/LiveCode 9.6.4.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/libraries/revbackscriptlibrary.livecodescript" > 8778,1631295937.884898,autoSave,stack "/Users/brahmanathaswami/Documents/_LiveCode/GITA Tools/Audio_Transcriber_3-3.livecode" > 8780,1631295937.934677,autoSave,stack "/Users/brahmanathaswami/Documents/_LiveCode/GITA Tools/Audio_Transcriber_3-3.livecode" > > I don?t what is going on? > > BR From scott at elementarysoftware.com Sat Sep 11 00:22:31 2021 From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (scott at elementarysoftware.com) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:22:31 -0700 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <17bd0ebde60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> <264b66da1cce5bb97003ab36ec687924@livecode.com> <17bd0ebde60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Yes, it did mention cheese... but it was entirely on topic and about LiveCode. (How could Mom not approve.) -- Scott Morrow Elementary Software (Now with 20% less chalk dust!) web https://elementarysoftware.com/ email scott at elementarysoftware.com booth 1-360-734-4701 ------------------------------------------------------ > On Sep 10, 2021, at 11:15 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > You're talking about cheese. I'm telling Mom. Nyah. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 10, 2021 8:42:48 AM Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote: > >> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 8:15 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> On 2021-09-10 14:06, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: >>> > The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would >>> > seem - where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which >>> > the heaps know about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid >>> > that like the plague (which I'm sure is the case for lots of >>> > historical reasons and backwards compatibility). [ To give a very >>> > rough analogy, the map of used space in a heap on windows is like a >>> > block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will be like a block of >>> > edam ]. >>> >>> I of course meant 'Swiss', not 'Edam'! >> >> >> Thanks for the clarification. I feel like I have a decent understanding of >> cheeses, but I couldn?t figure out how cheddar and edam were different in >> this analogy :-) >> >> -- >> Trevor DeVore >> ScreenSteps >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Sat Sep 11 01:26:21 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 01:26:21 -0400 Subject: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lagi: > My Laptop is SSD and still the problems. > I have the problems with or without defender on. > I don't use third party antivirus anymore That's 2 out of 4 common steps! Have you disabled the SE "bling" options? Bling is slang for flashy expensive trinkets, such as Live Errors and Auto Complete. (I used to disable Colorization, but it works fine with SSD.) BTW, it's not necessary to go without antivirus. The problem is certain newer intensive options you can adjust in the antivirus settings. I don't want people to read this thread and disable antivirus entirely; be safe! None of this is new; I listed 6 known factors and one more would be too much code; LC 7+ has performance issues that have been noted for years and are still being fixed. (I favor shorter code, and it has many perks. This is just one of them.) The IDE is not a high-performance design either. Looks like one underlying issue may improve soon! Others can be fixed readily if the LC Team spends more time "hands on" using IDE on Windows. Then the more rare and exotic bugs will trigger. Yet another LC problem on Windows is that each launch of each version of LC may launch a new Setup process that hangs in memory. Over time, you can end up with a dozen or more in memory eating up resources. Check your Task Manager and thin the crowd. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From henk at ludisstudio.com Sat Sep 11 09:23:37 2021 From: henk at ludisstudio.com (Henk van der Velden) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 15:23:37 +0200 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21CE74FE-ACBE-4844-853C-6A7631A4C1CF@ludisstudio.com> Hi Peter, Same results here. Big Sur 2.9 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 On the opening screen I could either delete or reset the preferences, but in the end that made no difference. If you need any more tests, just let me know. Henk > On 10 Sep 2021, at 22:47, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:55:46 -0700 > From: Mark Talluto > > To: useLiveCodeList > > Subject: Re: M1 Mac possible problem > Message-ID: <03AEB744-14C9-4D84-9D85-2DCC266CDB1B at canelasoftware.com > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Peter, > > Here are my test results: > > Intel iMac, Catalina > I used the Dmg to install the app in my applications folder. > > I ran the software, picked English (language) and World (location). > The software will not let me click on anything beyond this screen: > http://www.canelasoftware.com/pub/mita/screen.png > > > -Mark > From iphonelagi at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 20:24:27 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 01:24:27 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <17bd0ebde60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> <264b66da1cce5bb97003ab36ec687924@livecode.com> <17bd0ebde60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: I thought Mark was misremembering Emmental when he said Edam (they do start with an E) but I believe Venezuelan Beaver Cheeses is probably a better analogy as it has many holes caused by the beavers' sharp incisors. and is a bit of a mystery (very difficult to acquire) as is the workings of windows buffer allocation ..... Can we say Cheese? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz1JWzyvv8A&t=3s lagi p.s Jacques - when did this Cheese thing start - it is certainly before my time. On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 19:16, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > You're talking about cheese. I'm telling Mom. Nyah. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 10, 2021 8:42:48 AM Trevor DeVore via use-livecode > wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 8:15 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> On 2021-09-10 14:06, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > >> > The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would > >> > seem - where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which > >> > the heaps know about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid > >> > that like the plague (which I'm sure is the case for lots of > >> > historical reasons and backwards compatibility). [ To give a very > >> > rough analogy, the map of used space in a heap on windows is like a > >> > block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will be like a block of > >> > edam ]. > >> > >> I of course meant 'Swiss', not 'Edam'! > > > > > > Thanks for the clarification. I feel like I have a decent understanding > of > > cheeses, but I couldn?t figure out how cheddar and edam were different in > > this analogy :-) > > > > -- > > Trevor DeVore > > ScreenSteps > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Sat Sep 11 21:56:31 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 20:56:31 -0500 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> <264b66da1cce5bb97003ab36ec687924@livecode.com> <17bd0ebde60.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <17bd7b86498.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Ah yes, the cheese thing. I so wish I had saved that thread, but I may have needed an extra backup drive to do it. So listen, and ye shall hear. Long, long ago in the olden days, before there was a forum, before 64-bit apps, back when the QCC reports numbered in the lower hundreds, someone on the mailing list mentioned a preference for a cheese. I don't recall who or what, because at the time it seemed so innocuous. Someone else agreed, someone else disagreed, some did both. Discussions went on about which country produced the best cheese, opinions which were disputed by others who felt their own country should be nominated or at least take second place. Others had opinions about countries who did or did not produce cheese. Different varieties of cheese were analyzed, and opined upon. The same type of cheese was compared between one country and another. Suggestions were made to visit a country in order to try a cheese, which would presumably convince the doubters. It was implied that one's own country had good enough cheese, if not the best. This went on for a very long time. Of course, eventually the uninvolved, or those who were indifferent to cheese, or perhaps those who did not like cheese at all, asked the participants to desist and stay on topic. But by then the thread had taken on a life of its own and continued rolling on, gathering momentum like a stone thrown downhill and perhaps subsequently tumbling down river. Being a polite mailing list, no one actually said, "shut up" but at times you could read between the lines. Other readers suffered in stoic silence and made good use of their Delete key. There were occasional mutterings about slightly changing subject lines in posts, which prevented filtering out cheese curds from on-topic posts. The conversation continued for months. Or if it didn't, it seemed like it. Finally List Mom appeared with a gentle but firm pronouncement that in addition to politics, religion, and other such topics, Cheese was now banned on the list. Some were resigned, others sighed in relief. Occasionally you will still see oblique references to the dairy product but in general we speak of it only by inferred reference. I trust I will not be banned for being so explicit, but sometimes one must speak plainly. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 11, 2021 7:27:13 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode wrote: > I thought Mark was misremembering Emmental when he said Edam (they do > start with an E) but I believe > Venezuelan Beaver Cheeses is probably a better analogy as it has many > holes caused by the beavers' sharp incisors. > and is a bit of a mystery (very difficult to acquire) as is the workings of > windows buffer allocation ..... > > Can we say Cheese? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz1JWzyvv8A&t=3s > > lagi > > p.s Jacques - when did this Cheese thing start - it is certainly before my > time. > > On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 19:16, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> You're talking about cheese. I'm telling Mom. Nyah. >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On September 10, 2021 8:42:48 AM Trevor DeVore via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 8:15 AM Mark Waddingham via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2021-09-10 14:06, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> The windows heap is much more prudent than UNIXy counterparts it would >>>>> seem - where UNIX heaps will happily leave plenty of free space (which >>>>> the heaps know about and thus can re-use), Windows appears to avoid >>>>> that like the plague (which I'm sure is the case for lots of >>>>> historical reasons and backwards compatibility). [ To give a very >>>>> rough analogy, the map of used space in a heap on windows is like a >>>>> block of cheddar; whereas on UNIXy systems it will be like a block of >>>>> edam ]. >>>> >>>> I of course meant 'Swiss', not 'Edam'! >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the clarification. I feel like I have a decent understanding >> of >>> cheeses, but I couldn?t figure out how cheddar and edam were different in >>> this analogy :-) >>> >>> -- >>> Trevor DeVore >>> ScreenSteps >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > -- > KIndest Regards Lagi > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 06:44:25 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 11:44:25 +0100 Subject: [ANN] Organize 1.1 now in App Store In-Reply-To: <9699F7DE-9C23-4A4F-AD1C-0FD936807AE1@porta.ca> References: <665F87C5-C49A-4381-B41D-E37C68C19D5C@gmail.com> <9699F7DE-9C23-4A4F-AD1C-0FD936807AE1@porta.ca> Message-ID: Hi Kelly, just wondering if you could expand a bit more on the use of iCloud for syncing, and how that would work? Thanks, Mark > On Sep 10, 2021, at 9:42 PM, Dev wrote: > > Just downloaded it and will give it a look. When you get around to the iPad- please sync through iCloud. It?s the Apple way and works seamlessly for so many apps I have. I even have my LC prefs and plug-ins on iCloud so that they are accessible everywhere easily. > > Kelly > > Sent from an iDevice on the go, please excuse brevity & any errors > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 2:24 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode wrote: >> >> ?Thanks Bill, I?ll add that to the request list. I developed it on a 6S but went out and bought a 12 today so I could tackle the issue of resizing it for larger devices (something I know I don?t handle very well at the moment). My first reaction after installing Organize on the 12 was ?holy crap? this thing is fast. It just transformed the whole experience for me. (And made LC shine as well I might add). Anyway, once I work how to resize for a 12, I am sure the same method can be applied to things like an iPad. Of course, the request after that will be ?can I sync my iPhone and iPad to-do?s??. That is the fun of this though, isn?t it, once you get started it never ends ? >> >> Thanks for the suggestion, its a good one. >> >> Mark >> >> >>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 8:58 PM, prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, Mark. I was thinking about it as a scheduler instead of a task reminder. I use the Apple calendar for reminders of appointments mostly. It is a nice job. >>> >>> For me, I have 2 ipads, an iPhone, and a desktop Mac. I like to use my iPad whenever possible because of the screen size. It could be nice if you had an ipad version too and for Apple, it probably wouldn?t require a lot of extra coding, but organizing for a larger screen could be a bit of work. >>> >>> Nice work and it?s great that you had an easy time with the Apple store. >>> >>> Best, >>> Bill P. >>> >>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Mark Smith > wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting question Bill. I guess the biggest difference is it does not require you to ?sequence? activities according to time (although, yes, scheduling will be in a subsequent version). For now, a typical page might look something like the following? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> i >>>> >>>> >>>> And, as the reorder ?action? on the page suggests, you can re-arrange items as you want. It?s a list, and a flexible one at that. Don?t get to a task? There is a row menu that lets you move it to another day/date. Often I find if I don?t get to it today, and tomorrow is not looking any better, I?ll just throw it forward a week and deal with it then. >>>> >>>> It?s primarily a list of tasks you constantly add to, rearrange, reorder, finish, etc. >>>> >>>> Hope that helps. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:55 PM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I started but didn?t continue to participate in the feedback request for your app. My question, though, is ?what does this app do that just using the calendar can?t?? It could help to state it?s unique capabilities in the app description. >>>> >>> >>> William A. Prothero, Ph.D. >>> University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus) >>> Santa Barbara, CA. 93105 >>> http://earthlearningsolutions.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From mark at livecode.com Sun Sep 12 07:09:14 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 12:09:14 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <914924bd-2c6d-f402-20b3-d643b90cf43f@cogapp.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> <914924bd-2c6d-f402-20b3-d643b90cf43f@cogapp.com> Message-ID: <24a172e9e9308d83e67797ef8923d7bc@livecode.com> On 2021-09-10 19:10, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: > The other was >> The only caveat is that it might cause apps mutating lots of >> medium->large strings concurrently to take up more memory in >> general... > ... (and any issue arising from that could be resolved by >> moving to the 64-bit >> windows engine). > > I have been doing my tests on the 64-bit Windows engine. What am I > missing? The change I am making to the buffer extension rules means that mutable strings (i.e. those which the last action was modifying them, rather than copying them / fetching them) will take up more space than they did before to allow for possible extension (previously the maximum 'just in case' space which was allocated was 63 bytes). This means that applications may take up more memory as a result (if they happen to have lots of large mutable strings in play at any one time). 32-bit windows engines have a maximum address space of 3Gb - so if an app was already approaching that limit, this might tip them over to start causing out of memory errors. However, in this case, switching to use the 64-bit windows engine would resolve the problem as 64-bit address space is substantially larger. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From ambassador at fourthworld.com Sun Sep 12 14:29:28 2021 From: ambassador at fourthworld.com (Richard Gaskin) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 11:29:28 -0700 Subject: Alternative to Nabble for RSS for this list Message-ID: <1558693b-9324-c508-f93a-4896e54b9054@fourthworld.com> The old Nabble RSS feed for this died some time ago. So far the only alternative I've found is the RSS from mail-archive.com, which is darn near useless because it contains no body info from a post, not even the first sentence or two, just the title and the sender. Is there another RSS feed for the use-livecode list? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ____________________________________________________________________ Ambassador at FourthWorld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com From paulmcclernan at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 16:56:00 2021 From: paulmcclernan at gmail.com (Paul McClernan) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 16:56:00 -0400 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: Thank you very much for the info and advice Mark, very much appreciated. This is all entirely new ground for me and so I may make mistakes going forward, just let me know and I?ll do my best to correct them ASAP! I hope certainly hope anyone else trying to do anything with the legacy code base would respect LC Ltd?s iP / copyrights as well. > With all that said, I wish you, and anyone who joins you, well with your endeavour. > > Have fun! > > Warmest Regards, Having fun IS one of the primary goals! Good luck and Thanks again. > On Sep 9, 2021, at 10:18 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > > On 2021-09-08 22:54, Paul McClernan via use-livecode wrote: >> I've already fixed a bug that I reported back in April in my fork(s) and >> added a link to my fix to that bugzilla report. >> https://github.com/PaulMcClernan/LiveCodeCommunity-IDE-DontPanicEdition > > At this point in any changed relationship, it?s necessary to set out the new terms, as amicably as possible. Each side needs to clearly understand where they can and cannot go now. As our move away from supporting Open Source LiveCode is still very new, it?s likely the ramifications are not as yet understood. > > I have to ask you (and anyone involved in that project, or any other forks) politely not to submit any changes back to bugzilla or anywhere else associated with LiveCode Ltd. as it creates a business risk for us. > > We (LiveCode Ltd.) cannot take any code changes you make to your project's version of the LiveCode source-code and use them in our commercial code as (by default) it will be GPLv3 licensed, and the copyright of that will be held by the person who authored the changes; just as you cannot change the license from GPLv3 nor copyright attribution (LiveCode Ltd.) - whether explicit or implicit - of any existing line of code in your project's fork of the LiveCode repositories, nor take any changes which appear from now onwards in any commercial edition to incorporate into your project. > > When we were running the open source project, we had in place a Contributor's License Agreement which meant that the copyright of any code authored by a contributor in any patch submitted to LiveCode Ltd was assigned to us. However, this only extended to contributions submitted through GitHub, where there was an appropriate immutable record of such submissions and it was universally clear what changes were being made. For obvious reasons, this no longer exists. > > More generally, I must also ask you not to use the LiveCode mailing list, bug reporting system or LiveCode forums for discussions surrounding your fork - particularly related to plans, ideas, developments and changes which are being or have been made. > > At no point do I want us to be the target of any sort of public ill-will or indeed lawsuit due to assertions of copyright theft, or appropriation of other people's ideas that were not clearly (whether implicitly or explicitly) proffered to us directly. > > The only way to ensure that is for any forks (yours included) to stand completely independently and by themselves - with their own communication forums, distinctive product name and distinct branding so there can be no risk of confusion nor appropriation of anything from either side. > > I should point out that recent events are actually nothing to do with my above words - I would have said the same to any fork maintainer who actively sought to advertise their fork within the existing LiveCode community - as defined by LiveCode's mailing lists, forums, bug reporting system, or any other forum owned and run by LiveCode Ltd. for the purposes of public interaction - or posted links to code changes from that project or on any such forum/system. Indeed, ensuring complete independence really is standard practice when forks are made of open source projects - OpenOffice and LibreOffice spring to mind. > > We fully respect the legacy we have created in terms of the GPLv3 source-code, copyrighted to LiveCode Ltd., which is forever preserved in the archived GitHub repositories in the LiveCode GitHub account which carry the LiveCode name. We have no issue with any or all forks or open-source GPLv3-based projects which might arise from that legacy. > > All we ask is that any such project ensures that it respects LiveCode Ltd.'s intellectual property as embodied within that (through its GPLv3 licensed, copyrighted source-code) and also respects LiveCode Ltd.'s right to assert itself as the only entitled user of the LiveCode name, trademarks and brand identity. > > With all that said, I wish you, and anyone who joins you, well with your endeavour. > > Have fun! > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. > > -- > Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Everyone can create apps > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From colinholgate at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 22:53:07 2021 From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 19:53:07 -0700 Subject: Couple of HTML questions Message-ID: I want to have an online text editor, that can post some styled text, that then gets read into a desktop stack. There are a lot of HTML styled text editors around, but I thought I may as well try using LiveCode for that part as well. Two issues I?ve hit are the setting of the style of the text, and then posting the text to a PHP script, that stores the HTML changes. Can these lines work in an HTML published stack?: post data to URL theurl and: set the textstyle of the selection to bold From craig at starfirelighting.com Mon Sep 13 09:43:17 2021 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:43:17 -0400 Subject: Is the Forum down? Message-ID: <626D0CE3-7807-4EDD-98A4-BE202ACBB60C@starfirelighting.com> Seen almost nothing for days. Craig From richmondmathewson at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 09:58:14 2021 From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:58:14 +0300 Subject: Is the Forum down? In-Reply-To: <626D0CE3-7807-4EDD-98A4-BE202ACBB60C@starfirelighting.com> References: <626D0CE3-7807-4EDD-98A4-BE202ACBB60C@starfirelighting.com> Message-ID: <63b1d80b-ee46-dce7-329e-3f95e83d251d@gmail.com> Quite a lot of contributors are distracted elsewhere . . . Richmond. On 13.09.21 16:43, Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > Seen almost nothing for days. > > Craig > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Mon Sep 13 12:21:39 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:21:39 -0500 Subject: Is the Forum down? In-Reply-To: <626D0CE3-7807-4EDD-98A4-BE202ACBB60C@starfirelighting.com> References: <626D0CE3-7807-4EDD-98A4-BE202ACBB60C@starfirelighting.com> Message-ID: <17bdff6ce38.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> No, it's there. I've been getting regular digests and today's has several entries. I responded to a few over the weekend. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 13, 2021 8:45:40 AM Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > Seen almost nothing for days. > > Craig > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From craig at starfirelighting.com Mon Sep 13 12:27:55 2021 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:27:55 -0400 Subject: Is the Forum down? In-Reply-To: <17bdff6ce38.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <626D0CE3-7807-4EDD-98A4-BE202ACBB60C@starfirelighting.com> <17bdff6ce38.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Hmmm. I have nothing past last Thursday except for a couple of posts, mainly by you on Saturday the 11th. Will keep watch? Craig > On Sep 13, 2021, at 12:21 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > No, it's there. I've been getting regular digests and today's has several entries. I responded to a few over the weekend. > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 13, 2021 8:45:40 AM Craig Newman via use-livecode wrote: > >> Seen almost nothing for days. >> >> Craig >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr_mc at cogapp.com Mon Sep 13 12:28:57 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 17:28:57 +0100 Subject: Sorting text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows (Re: Accumulating text is *VERY* slow in LC9 on Windows) In-Reply-To: <24a172e9e9308d83e67797ef8923d7bc@livecode.com> References: <1954ab20-989a-5523-b6f3-457a446ee730@cogapp.com> <0630520cab1058171fa2f5997061995c@livecode.com> <914924bd-2c6d-f402-20b3-d643b90cf43f@cogapp.com> <24a172e9e9308d83e67797ef8923d7bc@livecode.com> Message-ID: <033a7403-2b0a-6729-f98e-31a36143799b@cogapp.com> Thanks Mark, now I get it! Ben On 12/09/2021 12:09, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > On 2021-09-10 19:10, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode wrote: >> The other was >>> The only caveat is that it might cause apps mutating lots of medium->large >>> strings concurrently to take up more memory in general... > ... (and any >>> issue arising from that could be resolved by moving to the 64-bit >>> windows engine). >> >> I have been doing my tests on the 64-bit Windows engine. What am I missing? > > The change I am making to the buffer extension rules means that mutable > strings (i.e. those which the last action was modifying them, rather than > copying them / fetching them) will take up more space than they did before to > allow for possible extension (previously the maximum 'just in case' space > which was allocated was 63 bytes). > > This means that applications may take up more memory as a result (if they > happen to have lots of large mutable strings in play at any one time). > > 32-bit windows engines have a maximum address space of 3Gb - so if an app was > already approaching that limit, this might tip them over to start causing out > of memory errors. > > However, in this case, switching to use the 64-bit windows engine would > resolve the problem as 64-bit address space is substantially larger. > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. > From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Mon Sep 13 15:20:03 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 21:20:03 +0200 Subject: Couple of HTML questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6958A416-02D3-4099-AF21-BEF3EAB5199A@m-r-d.de> Hi Colin, just tried here with a Livecode Server script not with a php script. Posting data from an Html5 stack to an url definitely works. (see https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html ) What i do not get working is setting the text style. Even if i set the style already in the IDE and built the html5 standalone the text style is reset to plain when the html5 stack is displayed in the browser. Regards, Matthias > Am 13.09.2021 um 04:53 schrieb Colin Holgate via use-livecode : > > I want to have an online text editor, that can post some styled text, that then gets read into a desktop stack. There are a lot of HTML styled text editors around, but I thought I may as well try using LiveCode for that part as well. > > Two issues I?ve hit are the setting of the style of the text, and then posting the text to a PHP script, that stores the HTML changes. > > Can these lines work in an HTML published stack?: > > post data to URL theurl > > and: > > set the textstyle of the selection to bold > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Mon Sep 13 18:14:21 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 23:14:21 +0100 Subject: Couple of HTML questions In-Reply-To: <6958A416-02D3-4099-AF21-BEF3EAB5199A@m-r-d.de> References: <6958A416-02D3-4099-AF21-BEF3EAB5199A@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Hi Colin, If it is HTML5 deployment you are looking to do from LC, how time critical is your project? At the moment, HTML5 deployment is still quite broken in many ways. It may be best to wait until LC10 which is using a whole new engine (which looks very promising). That said, the current engine 'CAN' do what you have 'asked' for sure, both 'post tData to URL(tUrl)' and 'set the textstyle of char 10 to 20 of fld "myField" to "bold"' (although that will depend on what texttype is already in that field potentially - it can be a bit kooky at times). Other things in html5 deployment you will run into that will most likely frustrate a little. Regarding 'post', note the following from the LC dictionary: Cross-platform note: The HTML5 engine only supports HTTP and HTTPs protocols. ((ie, you can't use file;//, ftp://, etc)) Cross-platform note: URLs fetched by the HTML5 engine from a domain other than that of the hosting the page may be blocked by web browsers, unless the server hosting the URL sets the "Access-Control-Origin" header appropriately. ((But as you are likely hosting the PHP you will have control over that)) If you run into any specific HTML5 deployment issues I'd be happy to help you through if you want to PM me at all. Sean On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 20:20, matthias rebbe via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Colin, > > just tried here with a Livecode Server script not with a php script. > > Posting data from an Html5 stack to an url definitely works. > (see https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html < > https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html>) > > What i do not get working is setting the text style. Even if i set the > style already in the IDE and built the html5 standalone the text style is > reset to plain when the html5 stack is displayed in the browser. > > Regards, > Matthias > > > > > Am 13.09.2021 um 04:53 schrieb Colin Holgate via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>: > > > > I want to have an online text editor, that can post some styled text, > that then gets read into a desktop stack. There are a lot of HTML styled > text editors around, but I thought I may as well try using LiveCode for > that part as well. > > > > Two issues I?ve hit are the setting of the style of the text, and then > posting the text to a PHP script, that stores the HTML changes. > > > > Can these lines work in an HTML published stack?: > > > > post data to URL theurl > > > > and: > > > > set the textstyle of the selection to bold > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From colinholgate at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 18:21:50 2021 From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:21:50 -0700 Subject: Couple of HTML questions In-Reply-To: References: <6958A416-02D3-4099-AF21-BEF3EAB5199A@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: My PHP script is at an https location, so no problems there. Currently I had been trying to set the text style of the selection, I didn?t yet try setting the text style of a character range. The post does seem to be failing though, and given that I don?t need any HTML5 features, only a simple styled text editor that is able to post the styled text to a PHP script, I will try to find some free code for doing that. Or maybe work out how to do it myself! Does anyone know of any HTML and Javascript code for editing styled text? I think I can figure out the JavaScript to post the innerHTML of a Div. > On Sep 13, 2021, at 3:14 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Colin, > If it is HTML5 deployment you are looking to do from LC, how time critical > is your project? At the moment, HTML5 deployment is still quite broken in > many ways. It may be best to wait until LC10 which is using a whole new > engine (which looks very promising). > > That said, the current engine 'CAN' do what you have 'asked' for sure, both > 'post tData to URL(tUrl)' and 'set the textstyle of char 10 to 20 of fld > "myField" to "bold"' (although that will depend on what texttype is already > in that field potentially - it can be a bit kooky at times). > > Other things in html5 deployment you will run into that will most likely > frustrate a little. > > Regarding 'post', note the following from the LC dictionary: > Cross-platform note: The HTML5 engine only supports HTTP and HTTPs > protocols. ((ie, you can't use file;//, ftp://, etc)) > Cross-platform note: URLs fetched by the HTML5 engine from a domain other > than that of the hosting the page may be blocked by web browsers, unless > the server hosting the URL sets the "Access-Control-Origin" header > appropriately. ((But as you are likely hosting the PHP you will have > control over that)) > > If you run into any specific HTML5 deployment issues I'd be happy to help > you through if you want to PM me at all. > > Sean > > On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 20:20, matthias rebbe via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Hi Colin, >> >> just tried here with a Livecode Server script not with a php script. >> >> Posting data from an Html5 stack to an url definitely works. >> (see https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html < >> https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html>) >> >> What i do not get working is setting the text style. Even if i set the >> style already in the IDE and built the html5 standalone the text style is >> reset to plain when the html5 stack is displayed in the browser. >> >> Regards, >> Matthias >> >> >> >>> Am 13.09.2021 um 04:53 schrieb Colin Holgate via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>: >>> >>> I want to have an online text editor, that can post some styled text, >> that then gets read into a desktop stack. There are a lot of HTML styled >> text editors around, but I thought I may as well try using LiveCode for >> that part as well. >>> >>> Two issues I?ve hit are the setting of the style of the text, and then >> posting the text to a PHP script, that stores the HTML changes. >>> >>> Can these lines work in an HTML published stack?: >>> >>> post data to URL theurl >>> >>> and: >>> >>> set the textstyle of the selection to bold >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From colinholgate at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 18:42:51 2021 From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:42:51 -0700 Subject: Couple of HTML questions In-Reply-To: References: <6958A416-02D3-4099-AF21-BEF3EAB5199A@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <5BF1682D-3BD3-404E-88E7-7C26E4DA8B93@gmail.com> I do see a message when trying the post, that says exception thrown, see JavaScript Console. There are too many error lines to be sure which one of them is important. I get no error when trying to set the style of the text, which makes me think that the field is a plain text field. When I test the stack inside LiveCode, the style changes and the post are working. > On Sep 13, 2021, at 3:14 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi Colin, > If it is HTML5 deployment you are looking to do from LC, how time critical > is your project? At the moment, HTML5 deployment is still quite broken in > many ways. It may be best to wait until LC10 which is using a whole new > engine (which looks very promising). > > That said, the current engine 'CAN' do what you have 'asked' for sure, both > 'post tData to URL(tUrl)' and 'set the textstyle of char 10 to 20 of fld > "myField" to "bold"' (although that will depend on what texttype is already > in that field potentially - it can be a bit kooky at times). > > Other things in html5 deployment you will run into that will most likely > frustrate a little. > > Regarding 'post', note the following from the LC dictionary: > Cross-platform note: The HTML5 engine only supports HTTP and HTTPs > protocols. ((ie, you can't use file;//, ftp://, etc)) > Cross-platform note: URLs fetched by the HTML5 engine from a domain other > than that of the hosting the page may be blocked by web browsers, unless > the server hosting the URL sets the "Access-Control-Origin" header > appropriately. ((But as you are likely hosting the PHP you will have > control over that)) > > If you run into any specific HTML5 deployment issues I'd be happy to help > you through if you want to PM me at all. > > Sean > > On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 20:20, matthias rebbe via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Hi Colin, >> >> just tried here with a Livecode Server script not with a php script. >> >> Posting data from an Html5 stack to an url definitely works. >> (see https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html < >> https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html>) >> >> What i do not get working is setting the text style. Even if i set the >> style already in the IDE and built the html5 standalone the text style is >> reset to plain when the html5 stack is displayed in the browser. >> >> Regards, >> Matthias >> >> >> >>> Am 13.09.2021 um 04:53 schrieb Colin Holgate via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>: >>> >>> I want to have an online text editor, that can post some styled text, >> that then gets read into a desktop stack. There are a lot of HTML styled >> text editors around, but I thought I may as well try using LiveCode for >> that part as well. >>> >>> Two issues I?ve hit are the setting of the style of the text, and then >> posting the text to a PHP script, that stores the HTML changes. >>> >>> Can these lines work in an HTML published stack?: >>> >>> post data to URL theurl >>> >>> and: >>> >>> set the textstyle of the selection to bold >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Mon Sep 13 18:48:26 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 00:48:26 +0200 Subject: Couple of HTML questions In-Reply-To: <5BF1682D-3BD3-404E-88E7-7C26E4DA8B93@gmail.com> References: <6958A416-02D3-4099-AF21-BEF3EAB5199A@m-r-d.de> <5BF1682D-3BD3-404E-88E7-7C26E4DA8B93@gmail.com> Message-ID: <89BF0F6E-55E0-45BD-AE28-6D68B0C0154B@m-r-d.de> Colin, i my previous comment i posted a link to a html5 stack which posts the selected text of a field to a Livecode Server script. Posting should definitely work. > Am 14.09.2021 um 00:42 schrieb Colin Holgate via use-livecode : > > I do see a message when trying the post, that says exception thrown, see JavaScript Console. There are too many error lines to be sure which one of them is important. I get no error when trying to set the style of the text, which makes me think that the field is a plain text field. > > When I test the stack inside LiveCode, the style changes and the post are working. > >> On Sep 13, 2021, at 3:14 PM, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi Colin, >> If it is HTML5 deployment you are looking to do from LC, how time critical >> is your project? At the moment, HTML5 deployment is still quite broken in >> many ways. It may be best to wait until LC10 which is using a whole new >> engine (which looks very promising). >> >> That said, the current engine 'CAN' do what you have 'asked' for sure, both >> 'post tData to URL(tUrl)' and 'set the textstyle of char 10 to 20 of fld >> "myField" to "bold"' (although that will depend on what texttype is already >> in that field potentially - it can be a bit kooky at times). >> >> Other things in html5 deployment you will run into that will most likely >> frustrate a little. >> >> Regarding 'post', note the following from the LC dictionary: >> Cross-platform note: The HTML5 engine only supports HTTP and HTTPs >> protocols. ((ie, you can't use file;//, ftp://, etc)) >> Cross-platform note: URLs fetched by the HTML5 engine from a domain other >> than that of the hosting the page may be blocked by web browsers, unless >> the server hosting the URL sets the "Access-Control-Origin" header >> appropriately. ((But as you are likely hosting the PHP you will have >> control over that)) >> >> If you run into any specific HTML5 deployment issues I'd be happy to help >> you through if you want to PM me at all. >> >> Sean >> >> On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 20:20, matthias rebbe via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Colin, >>> >>> just tried here with a Livecode Server script not with a php script. >>> >>> Posting data from an Html5 stack to an url definitely works. >>> (see https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html < >>> https://livecode.dermattes.de/postmr/postmr.html>) >>> >>> What i do not get working is setting the text style. Even if i set the >>> style already in the IDE and built the html5 standalone the text style is >>> reset to plain when the html5 stack is displayed in the browser. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Matthias >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 13.09.2021 um 04:53 schrieb Colin Holgate via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>: >>>> >>>> I want to have an online text editor, that can post some styled text, >>> that then gets read into a desktop stack. There are a lot of HTML styled >>> text editors around, but I thought I may as well try using LiveCode for >>> that part as well. >>>> >>>> Two issues I?ve hit are the setting of the style of the text, and then >>> posting the text to a PHP script, that stores the HTML changes. >>>> >>>> Can these lines work in an HTML published stack?: >>>> >>>> post data to URL theurl >>>> >>>> and: >>>> >>>> set the textstyle of the selection to bold >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From colinholgate at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 19:04:00 2021 From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:04:00 -0700 Subject: Couple of HTML questions In-Reply-To: <89BF0F6E-55E0-45BD-AE28-6D68B0C0154B@m-r-d.de> References: <6958A416-02D3-4099-AF21-BEF3EAB5199A@m-r-d.de> <5BF1682D-3BD3-404E-88E7-7C26E4DA8B93@gmail.com> <89BF0F6E-55E0-45BD-AE28-6D68B0C0154B@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: I read the instructions more carefully, and the selected text does get posted. I am using 9.6.3, wonder if the version matters? From colinholgate at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 01:47:03 2021 From: colinholgate at gmail.com (Colin Holgate) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 22:47:03 -0700 Subject: Couple of HTML questions In-Reply-To: <89BF0F6E-55E0-45BD-AE28-6D68B0C0154B@m-r-d.de> References: <6958A416-02D3-4099-AF21-BEF3EAB5199A@m-r-d.de> <5BF1682D-3BD3-404E-88E7-7C26E4DA8B93@gmail.com> <89BF0F6E-55E0-45BD-AE28-6D68B0C0154B@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <07C6DEB0-6217-46F8-9B3E-0B62CBE80BF6@gmail.com> I found a small styled text editor that I could add my buttons to, and can now edit text and send it to a PHP script to store online. Then a LiveCode stack can retrieve those files. One problem I ran into was getting all of the characters to survive the ordeal. I could successfully get the text from the HTML editor to the online file, by using escape(the html of the text), but LiveCode doesn?t seem to have escape or unescape. It does have URLDecode, but if I used URLEncode the text wouldn?t fully upload to the PHP script. In the end I had to use a replaceText for each of the unicode characters that were in the downloaded text. So far those have been bullets, checkmarks, and ellipses, and I do these lines: put replaceText(it,"%u2026","?") into newtext put replaceText(newtext,"%u221A","?") into newtext set the htmltext of fld ?rich text field" to replaceText(newtext,"%u2022","?") From sean at pidigital.co.uk Tue Sep 14 07:07:12 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:07:12 +0100 Subject: PATCH command in tsNetCustom Message-ID: Hi all, I am in need of an example of how to use tsnet to send a PATCH request to a REST API. I have some JSON (tJson) like '{"myField":"Data"}' and address (tAddr) like 'https://myLink.com/object/name/idNumber' and tHeaders like "Accept-Encoding: gzip" &cr& "Authorization: Bearer" && tAccessToken" &cr& "Content-length:" && tLen &cr& "Content-type: application/json". How do I build my tsnet request? put tsnetCustomSync(tAddr, "PATCH", tHeaders, tRecvHeaders, tResultCode, tBytes) into tData Where does tJson get put? Thanks Sean From mark at livecode.com Tue Sep 14 07:29:44 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:29:44 +0100 Subject: PATCH command in tsNetCustom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <825d7b64ff558fa74efeb56a9e541734@livecode.com> On 2021-09-14 12:07, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > put tsnetCustomSync(tAddr, "PATCH", tHeaders, tRecvHeaders, > tResultCode, > tBytes) into tData > > Where does tJson get put? I think you want tsnetCustomUploadSync here - that has an extra parameters for the body to upload, and return. Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From sean at pidigital.co.uk Tue Sep 14 07:36:40 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:36:40 +0100 Subject: PATCH command in tsNetCustom In-Reply-To: <825d7b64ff558fa74efeb56a9e541734@livecode.com> References: <825d7b64ff558fa74efeb56a9e541734@livecode.com> Message-ID: Super, thanks Mark. Makes much more sense. Sean On Tue, 14 Sept 2021 at 12:29, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > On 2021-09-14 12:07, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote: > > put tsnetCustomSync(tAddr, "PATCH", tHeaders, tRecvHeaders, > > tResultCode, > > tBytes) into tData > > > > Where does tJson get put? > > I think you want tsnetCustomUploadSync here - that has an extra > parameters for the body to upload, and return. > > Warmest Regards, > > Mark. > > -- > Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Everyone can create apps > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Sep 15 01:17:30 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 01:17:30 -0400 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> Message-ID: <0B844711-08BC-4F10-8629-3D5546D0F972@me.com> Hi to all those that did a test of my Music In the Air program some days ago on your Mac. I think I have fixed the installation problem. Would you do a quick test to see if it runs now? https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg I found a variety of anomalies that might have contributed to the problem, but I?ll wait to see if it?s better now? Thanks! Peter Bogdanoff > On Sep 10, 2021, at 3:41 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > Apologies, I should have mentioned it: 2.3 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5 > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:12 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode > wrote: >> >> Thanks Matthias, Bernard, and Mark! >> >> I?m seeing that the issue is probably not processor related. Bernard on an M1 didn?t have trouble. Matthias on Intel did, as well as Mark who didn?t specify what he had?but the bad results do mirror exactly what the Chinese user was seeing on her M1. >> >> The final card that becomes unresponsive is because of a semi-opaque overlay that?s a setup for a license activation group to show on top. At that point the program is trying to read a local file that contains the current license info?if the local license file doesn?t exist (new user), it will load the license group with a field to enter a key, or the user can choose to continue with the free limited version. The script is seeming to stop around that point. >> >> I?ve been trying to make the problem show for me, including what Matthias suggested?running it from the installer which does seem to work normally. I also tried deleting the pref file containing language and location choices that was written at the opening, in hopes of narrowing it down to an inability to write or read a file from the pref folder in the library. Deleting the pref file caused a script error that shows the standard LC error dialog added by the installer, so it?s not that. >> >> So apparently something in my script is failing to complete for some users. This was built with LC 9.6.1. I?ll work on it more? >> >> Peter Bogdanoff >> >>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 4:45 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Peter, >>> >>> i have not an M1, but am always interested what can be produced with LC. >>> >>> I tested your program and noticed that although i switched to English and World i see a button with chinese text on the next page. >>> >>> Regarding your problem. >>> Is it possible by any change that your user is running the app from mounted DMG? At least then it does not go any further after pressing the button with chinese text. The next card, which displays J.S Bach i think, comes up, but the menu in the middle is greyed out and the program stops. >>> When quitting it still prompts if you want to quit. But none of the menu entries work. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Matthias >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 10.09.2021 um 07:56 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode >: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. >>>> >>>> Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? >>>> >>>> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg > >>>> >>>> >>>> This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. >>>> >>>> Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. >>>> >>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>> bogdanoff at me.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bdrunrev at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 04:56:59 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:56:59 +0100 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <0B844711-08BC-4F10-8629-3D5546D0F972@me.com> References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> <0B844711-08BC-4F10-8629-3D5546D0F972@me.com> Message-ID: No problems that I could see. On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 6:18 AM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi to all those that did a test of my Music In the Air program some days > ago on your Mac. > > > From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Sep 15 05:21:36 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:21:36 +0200 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <0B844711-08BC-4F10-8629-3D5546D0F972@me.com> References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> <0B844711-08BC-4F10-8629-3D5546D0F972@me.com> Message-ID: <5F7BB109-BE51-4A2E-B5D8-B51B2D8BD1FF@m-r-d.de> Works now. One thing i noticed is that although the language is set to english, the program settings dialog shows Chinese text. Regards, Matthias Am 15.09.2021 um 07:17 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode : > > Hi to all those that did a test of my Music In the Air program some days ago on your Mac. > > I think I have fixed the installation problem. Would you do a quick test to see if it runs now? > > https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg > > > I found a variety of anomalies that might have contributed to the problem, but I?ll wait to see if it?s better now? > > Thanks! > > Peter Bogdanoff > > > >> On Sep 10, 2021, at 3:41 PM, Mark Smith wrote: >> >> Apologies, I should have mentioned it: 2.3 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5 >> >>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:12 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode > wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Matthias, Bernard, and Mark! >>> >>> I?m seeing that the issue is probably not processor related. Bernard on an M1 didn?t have trouble. Matthias on Intel did, as well as Mark who didn?t specify what he had?but the bad results do mirror exactly what the Chinese user was seeing on her M1. >>> >>> The final card that becomes unresponsive is because of a semi-opaque overlay that?s a setup for a license activation group to show on top. At that point the program is trying to read a local file that contains the current license info?if the local license file doesn?t exist (new user), it will load the license group with a field to enter a key, or the user can choose to continue with the free limited version. The script is seeming to stop around that point. >>> >>> I?ve been trying to make the problem show for me, including what Matthias suggested?running it from the installer which does seem to work normally. I also tried deleting the pref file containing language and location choices that was written at the opening, in hopes of narrowing it down to an inability to write or read a file from the pref folder in the library. Deleting the pref file caused a script error that shows the standard LC error dialog added by the installer, so it?s not that. >>> >>> So apparently something in my script is failing to complete for some users. This was built with LC 9.6.1. I?ll work on it more? >>> >>> Peter Bogdanoff >>> >>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 4:45 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Peter, >>>> >>>> i have not an M1, but am always interested what can be produced with LC. >>>> >>>> I tested your program and noticed that although i switched to English and World i see a button with chinese text on the next page. >>>> >>>> Regarding your problem. >>>> Is it possible by any change that your user is running the app from mounted DMG? At least then it does not go any further after pressing the button with chinese text. The next card, which displays J.S Bach i think, comes up, but the menu in the middle is greyed out and the program stops. >>>> When quitting it still prompts if you want to quit. But none of the menu entries work. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Matthias >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Am 10.09.2021 um 07:56 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode >: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. >>>>> >>>>> Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? >>>>> >>>>> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. >>>>> >>>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>>> bogdanoff at me.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From revolution at derbrill.de Wed Sep 15 06:29:17 2021 From: revolution at derbrill.de (Malte Pfaff-Brill) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:29:17 +0200 Subject: export a stack and recreate it it by script Message-ID: <2b278da9-beb4-ecdd-f26c-f4dcb48812af@derbrill.de> Hi, I have been lurking for a while and do not really write code anymore. However, I am in a situation, where I need to maintain a very old project, that consists of a large(ish) collection of stacks that is crashing frequently with newer engine versions.My suspicion is that it is due to either a somewhere corrupted stack and/or a wild mix of stackFileVersions. Has anyone of you created a Script that exports a stack to a text / XML / Json / whatever file and can recreate them with the latest stackFileVersion? That would save me some trouble and feed my lazyness. :-) If you want to contact me off list, please use malte [at] derbrill.de All the best, Malte From benr_mc at cogapp.com Wed Sep 15 08:55:18 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:55:18 +0100 Subject: export a stack and recreate it it by script In-Reply-To: <2b278da9-beb4-ecdd-f26c-f4dcb48812af@derbrill.de> References: <2b278da9-beb4-ecdd-f26c-f4dcb48812af@derbrill.de> Message-ID: Hi Malte, I have one (not used for many a year) that exports to XML including scripts, properties, contents etc. I used it to diff - never wrote an importer for it. But if you don't find what you need elsewhere, this might do half the job. Let me know if you want it. Ben On 15/09/2021 11:29, Malte Pfaff-Brill via use-livecode wrote: > Hi, > > I have been lurking for a while and do not really write code anymore. However, > I am in a situation, where I need to maintain a very old project, that > consists of a large(ish) collection of stacks that is crashing frequently with > newer engine versions.My suspicion is that it is due to either a somewhere > corrupted stack and/or a wild mix of stackFileVersions. Has anyone of you > created a Script that exports a stack to a text / XML / Json / whatever file > and can recreate them with the latest stackFileVersion? That would save me > some trouble and feed my lazyness. :-) > > If you want to contact me off list, please use malte [at] derbrill.de > > All the best, > > Malte > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dougr at telus.net Wed Sep 15 11:34:42 2021 From: dougr at telus.net (Douglas A. Ruisaard) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:34:42 -0700 Subject: export a stack and recreate it it by script In-Reply-To: <2b278da9-beb4-ecdd-f26c-f4dcb48812af@derbrill.de> References: <2b278da9-beb4-ecdd-f26c-f4dcb48812af@derbrill.de> Message-ID: <00df01d7aa47$34ea76e0$9ebf64a0$@telus.net> You might also check out "Script Reporter".. which should be available somewhere on the LC site. It's a GREAT program which reads entire stacks (one at a time, mind you) and allows a cut & paste of the code into a simple text file. Like Ben's suggestion, I use it extensively for version differences. You can also simply paste the output (one card at a time) back into the LC editor and you've got a newly generated project. If Ben's option offers a multiple card-at-a-time solution, THAT would be superior to Script Reported in this context, but it's still is another option. Douglas Ruisaard Trilogy Software (250) 573-3935 -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Malte Pfaff-Brill via use-livecode Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 3:29 AM To: use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Cc: Malte Pfaff-Brill Subject: export a stack and recreate it it by script Hi, I have been lurking for a while and do not really write code anymore. However, I am in a situation, where I need to maintain a very old project, that consists of a large(ish) collection of stacks that is crashing frequently with newer engine versions.My suspicion is that it is due to either a somewhere corrupted stack and/or a wild mix of stackFileVersions. Has anyone of you created a Script that exports a stack to a text / XML / Json / whatever file and can recreate them with the latest stackFileVersion? That would save me some trouble and feed my lazyness. :-) If you want to contact me off list, please use malte [at] derbrill.de All the best, Malte _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ahsoftware at sonic.net Wed Sep 15 12:13:45 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:13:45 -0700 Subject: export a stack and recreate it it by script In-Reply-To: <2b278da9-beb4-ecdd-f26c-f4dcb48812af@derbrill.de> References: <2b278da9-beb4-ecdd-f26c-f4dcb48812af@derbrill.de> Message-ID: <8463709c-dfac-b5f6-3b5e-ebf64a173080@sonic.net> On 9/15/21 3:29 AM, Malte Pfaff-Brill via use-livecode wrote: > Hi, > > I have been lurking for a while and do not really write code anymore. > However, I am in a situation, where I need to maintain a very old > project, that consists of a large(ish) collection of stacks that is > crashing frequently with newer engine versions.My suspicion is that it > is due to either a somewhere corrupted stack and/or a wild mix of > stackFileVersions. Has anyone of you created a Script that exports a > stack to a text / XML / Json / whatever file and can recreate them with > the latest stackFileVersion? That would save me some trouble and feed my > lazyness. :-) Malte- You want Brian Milby's ScriptTracker plugin. It does exactly that. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Sep 15 15:23:04 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:23:04 -0400 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <5F7BB109-BE51-4A2E-B5D8-B51B2D8BD1FF@m-r-d.de> References: <7C9AE2EE-216A-40ED-9F05-6E1E9C0EC6CC@me.com> <0B844711-08BC-4F10-8629-3D5546D0F972@me.com> <5F7BB109-BE51-4A2E-B5D8-B51B2D8BD1FF@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <643ADAF6-6226-449D-9078-12118AD05003@me.com> Thank you Matthias. > On Sep 15, 2021, at 5:21 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Works now. > > One thing i noticed is that although the language is set to english, the program settings dialog shows Chinese text. > > > Regards, > Matthias > > > > Am 15.09.2021 um 07:17 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode >: >> >> Hi to all those that did a test of my Music In the Air program some days ago on your Mac. >> >> I think I have fixed the installation problem. Would you do a quick test to see if it runs now? >> >> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg >> >> >> I found a variety of anomalies that might have contributed to the problem, but I?ll wait to see if it?s better now? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Peter Bogdanoff >> >> >> >>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 3:41 PM, Mark Smith wrote: >>> >>> Apologies, I should have mentioned it: 2.3 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5 >>> >>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 6:12 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Matthias, Bernard, and Mark! >>>> >>>> I?m seeing that the issue is probably not processor related. Bernard on an M1 didn?t have trouble. Matthias on Intel did, as well as Mark who didn?t specify what he had?but the bad results do mirror exactly what the Chinese user was seeing on her M1. >>>> >>>> The final card that becomes unresponsive is because of a semi-opaque overlay that?s a setup for a license activation group to show on top. At that point the program is trying to read a local file that contains the current license info?if the local license file doesn?t exist (new user), it will load the license group with a field to enter a key, or the user can choose to continue with the free limited version. The script is seeming to stop around that point. >>>> >>>> I?ve been trying to make the problem show for me, including what Matthias suggested?running it from the installer which does seem to work normally. I also tried deleting the pref file containing language and location choices that was written at the opening, in hopes of narrowing it down to an inability to write or read a file from the pref folder in the library. Deleting the pref file caused a script error that shows the standard LC error dialog added by the installer, so it?s not that. >>>> >>>> So apparently something in my script is failing to complete for some users. This was built with LC 9.6.1. I?ll work on it more? >>>> >>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>> >>>>> On Sep 10, 2021, at 4:45 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Peter, >>>>> >>>>> i have not an M1, but am always interested what can be produced with LC. >>>>> >>>>> I tested your program and noticed that although i switched to English and World i see a button with chinese text on the next page. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding your problem. >>>>> Is it possible by any change that your user is running the app from mounted DMG? At least then it does not go any further after pressing the button with chinese text. The next card, which displays J.S Bach i think, comes up, but the menu in the middle is greyed out and the program stops. >>>>> When quitting it still prompts if you want to quit. But none of the menu entries work. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Matthias >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Am 10.09.2021 um 07:56 schrieb Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode >>: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> A particular user of my Music In the Air program is having trouble with it running correctly; a card fails to load the data to go ahead. She is in China and is using an M1 Mac, neither of which I have access to directly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Would someone who has an M1 try running it and letting me know what happens? >>>>>> >>>>>> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg > >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a limited demo version, otherwise fully functional, and will be initially in Chinese, but there is an English choice at the startup. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks very much, and you can let me know off list what happens. >>>>>> >>>>>> Peter Bogdanoff >>>>>> bogdanoff at me.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From henk at ludisstudio.com Wed Sep 15 15:38:49 2021 From: henk at ludisstudio.com (Henk van der Velden) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:38:49 +0200 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05C6C58C-0220-46CE-B109-6AC1803718A4@ludisstudio.com> Works fine now! > On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: > > Hi to all those that did a test of my Music In the Air program some days ago on your Mac. > > I think I have fixed the installation problem. Would you do a quick test to see if it runs now? > > https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg > > > I found a variety of anomalies that might have contributed to the problem, but I?ll wait to see if it?s better now? > > Thanks! > > Peter Bogdanoff From bogdanoff at me.com Wed Sep 15 16:23:58 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:23:58 -0400 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <05C6C58C-0220-46CE-B109-6AC1803718A4@ludisstudio.com> References: <05C6C58C-0220-46CE-B109-6AC1803718A4@ludisstudio.com> Message-ID: <21B6ED86-A10E-4A6E-80CE-85CF08C93A5A@me.com> Thanks Henk. The problem that I could finally reproduce was a sub stack (that is ?in use?) not receiving the openStack message when it was opened. This caused the program's initialization script to pause. So I replaced the openStack handler in the sub stack with that would receive a sent message, then things proceeded properly. A timing issue for some computers? Some users were experiencing the anomaly and others not. Peter > On Sep 15, 2021, at 3:38 PM, Henk van der Velden via use-livecode wrote: > > Works fine now! > > >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >> >> Hi to all those that did a test of my Music In the Air program some days ago on your Mac. >> >> I think I have fixed the installation problem. Would you do a quick test to see if it runs now? >> >> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg >> >> >> I found a variety of anomalies that might have contributed to the problem, but I?ll wait to see if it?s better now? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Peter Bogdanoff > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Wed Sep 15 16:58:33 2021 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:58:33 -0400 Subject: "Unknown error." in LC when trying to test to connected ios device Message-ID: Mac OS 11.5.2 LC 9.6.2 XCode 12.1 I choose a device from the Development->Test Target menu, then select Development->Test We get as far as the app getting signed, and then the error is thrown. I'm pretty sure the certs and profiles are current, since I manually removed them and then used XC to reinstall them. Suggestions? -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 17:15:17 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 22:15:17 +0100 Subject: M1 Mac possible problem In-Reply-To: <21B6ED86-A10E-4A6E-80CE-85CF08C93A5A@me.com> References: <05C6C58C-0220-46CE-B109-6AC1803718A4@ludisstudio.com> <21B6ED86-A10E-4A6E-80CE-85CF08C93A5A@me.com> Message-ID: <3286C2C6-ED24-483F-B848-67E88A59B02B@gmail.com> Yes, works fine now here as well, and looks to be quite an impressive musical accomplishment. Best of luck with it. > On Sep 15, 2021, at 9:23 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks Henk. > > The problem that I could finally reproduce was a sub stack (that is ?in use?) not receiving the openStack message when it was opened. This caused the program's initialization script to pause. So I replaced the openStack handler in the sub stack with that would receive a sent message, then things proceeded properly. > > A timing issue for some computers? Some users were experiencing the anomaly and others not. > > Peter > >> On Sep 15, 2021, at 3:38 PM, Henk van der Velden via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Works fine now! >> >> >>> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:00, use-livecode-request at lists.runrev.com wrote: >>> >>> Hi to all those that did a test of my Music In the Air program some days ago on your Mac. >>> >>> I think I have fixed the installation problem. Would you do a quick test to see if it runs now? >>> >>> https://artsinteractive-products.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/MITA/TestVersion/MITA-installer-mac-china.dmg >>> >>> >>> I found a variety of anomalies that might have contributed to the problem, but I?ll wait to see if it?s better now? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Peter Bogdanoff >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From scott at elementarysoftware.com Wed Sep 15 21:56:57 2021 From: scott at elementarysoftware.com (scott at elementarysoftware.com) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:56:57 -0700 Subject: "Unknown error." in LC when trying to test to connected ios device In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D00AFE5-72F8-4519-AF83-14C5F5779509@elementarysoftware.com> As J. Landman Gay once pointed out, sometimes it comes down to figuring out what color chicken to sacrifice. The other day I encountered something similar to what you are describing that was a new one for me. (I don?t recall the exact issue because I encountered several and they are mixed up in my mind now.) But one error was actually the result of checking the "build for iOS? button but forgetting to uncheck the ?build for Android? button. I was surprised that LC couldn?t figure that out based on the target device but, unchecking ?build for Android? solved it. Hoping you find that it is something simple and not the chicken thing. -- Scott Morrow Elementary Software (Now with 20% less chalk dust!) web https://elementarysoftware.com/ email scott at elementarysoftware.com booth 1-360-734-4701 ------------------------------------------------------ > On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote: > > Mac OS 11.5.2 > LC 9.6.2 > XCode 12.1 > I choose a device from the Development->Test Target menu, then select > Development->Test > We get as far as the app getting signed, and then the error is thrown. > I'm pretty sure the certs and profiles are current, since I manually > removed them and then used XC to reinstall them. > Suggestions? > > -- > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > On the second day, God created the oceans. > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > and did a little diving. > And God said, "This is good." > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Sep 16 06:35:35 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 06:35:35 -0400 Subject: RCs and DPs In-Reply-To: <8F952F82-1CB0-4CDA-9905-A3976C439F9C@rogers.com> References: <8F952F82-1CB0-4CDA-9905-A3976C439F9C@rogers.com> Message-ID: <14106682-0dbc-ba5e-ad2c-bc85f5fef9ad@pair.com> Ben: > all RCs and DPs have gone, leaving only STABLE versions Martin: > there was a policy change by LiveCode that was announced back in May Heather/LiveCode: > If you think this will affect you, please do feel free > to reply to this email, we would be very interested to hear > why you are using an older, unstable and unsupported release. This is a good example of LC usage of "stable" and it explains why the definition is important. Here "unstable" is used by the LC Team with a negative connotation, implying less reliable, less well-tested, less fixed, unfinished. Emphasizing that meaning: > If you do already have one of these downloads, > the licensing will continue to work with it, > however I strongly advise you to move to using a stable release, > these are test releases and not intended for general use. Again +1: It's good common sense to prefer a finished version. I've long had a taboo against using dp/rc for published builds, if at all possible, for the same reasons. Why do I mention it? 1. First, some time ago, there was a discussion here about LC users needing stable LC versions to build with. In other words, when it's time to really publish your Acme App, you likely will choose the least-buggy LC version available. A proposed counterargument/solution was that we were simply using different definitions of "stable" - the above, versus a more technical coding-cycle definition of no-more-added-features. A "stable" version will not necessarily be reliable; YMMV. But as we see, BOTH definitions are used by LC, and valid. Both definitions tend to apply to most purposes. LC has a version build cycle, and so do LC users. An app build typically requires a stable (completed) LC version, which is usually likewise a stable (reliable) LC version. (Often, but not always, the very latest LC "stable" version, depending on old and new LC bugs that affect an app.) 2. The rhetorical question of why someone might use a dp/rc is probably worth answering too. Building with a dp/rc is extremely undesirable for me, yet not QUITE unthinkable. (And newbies have asked why anyone would keep 2 LC versions at all.) So here we go with the answers: A. You were forced to use a dp/rc to meet a publication deadline, and you have an internal policy of using the same LC where possible for any minor updates during your own app's version cycle. (Typically the stable is even better, but I've seen the exception.) B. The version in question fixed one bug but introduced another. It's rare, but it has happened, for the "good" LC build for a particular user app to fall on a dp/rc release. (We've had cases where fixing one bug introduced another issue.) C. You need to copy objects from one project to another. The secret to doing this smoothly in LC is using two IDEs! Two stable versions usually suffice, such as 9.6.4 and 9.6.3, but it's possible to need the same version for a new feature. (*Thus, I would recommend keeping the latest version's dp/rc's online.) In practice these are rare. I've had 1 or 2 of these situations, but I'm not very worried about having them again. Just FYI. I prefer stable releases and the less-cluttered download page. It is much easier and quicker to navigate now than before! Another step in the right direction. (Except perhaps this.*) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From curry at pair.com Thu Sep 16 06:50:48 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 06:50:48 -0400 Subject: What's in LC 9.6.4? Message-ID: I can't find the customary use-list and dev-list email, announcing and summarizing an LC release, for 9.6.4. (And I never find the Release Notes PDF as useful.) Perhaps it was mentioned in another thread, but if so, I overlooked that too. What are the big LC 9.6.4 changes versus 9.6.3? Thanks. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From MikeKerner at roadrunner.com Thu Sep 16 13:17:45 2021 From: MikeKerner at roadrunner.com (Mike Kerner) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:17:45 -0400 Subject: "Unknown error." in LC when trying to test to connected ios device In-Reply-To: <5D00AFE5-72F8-4519-AF83-14C5F5779509@elementarysoftware.com> References: <5D00AFE5-72F8-4519-AF83-14C5F5779509@elementarysoftware.com> Message-ID: that ain't it. but i looked, just in case. On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 9:58 PM scott--- via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > As J. Landman Gay once pointed out, sometimes it comes down to figuring > out what color chicken to sacrifice. The other day I encountered something > similar to what you are describing that was a new one for me. (I don?t > recall the exact issue because I encountered several and they are mixed up > in my mind now.) But one error was actually the result of checking the > "build for iOS? button but forgetting to uncheck the ?build for Android? > button. I was surprised that LC couldn?t figure that out based on the > target device but, unchecking ?build for Android? solved it. Hoping you > find that it is something simple and not the chicken thing. > > -- > Scott Morrow > > Elementary Software > (Now with 20% less chalk dust!) > web https://elementarysoftware.com/ > email scott at elementarysoftware.com > booth 1-360-734-4701 > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Mac OS 11.5.2 > > LC 9.6.2 > > XCode 12.1 > > I choose a device from the Development->Test Target menu, then select > > Development->Test > > We get as far as the app getting signed, and then the error is thrown. > > I'm pretty sure the certs and profiles are current, since I manually > > removed them and then used XC to reinstall them. > > Suggestions? > > > > -- > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth > > On the second day, God created the oceans. > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, > > and did a little diving. > > And God said, "This is good." > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Thu Sep 16 18:25:40 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:25:40 -0500 Subject: IAP in App Store Message-ID: I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account and I'm a verified test user with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in Settings. I had to look up how to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in again while in Settings, instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an Apple ID. It does not. Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from purchaseStateUpdate. There's a handler in the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's all I get. How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test account? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From mark at livecode.com Fri Sep 17 03:42:39 2021 From: mark at livecode.com (Mark Waddingham) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:42:39 +0100 Subject: What's in LC 9.6.4? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71c6eaf40b386498af99797a02044bf7@livecode.com> On 2021-09-16 11:50, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > What are the big LC 9.6.4 changes versus 9.6.3? Thanks. The licensing and the fact it is single edition - beyond that 9.6.4 should be functionally identical to 9.6.3 (hence why the release notes do not list any IDE/Engine changes!). Warmest Regards, Mark. -- Mark Waddingham ~ mark at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ LiveCode: Everyone can create apps From merakosp at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 03:46:27 2021 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis m) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:46:27 +0300 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Jacque, >>>>>instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an Apple ID Yes, this is what should happen. What do you get when trying to make a purchase? I take it that the in-app purchase product IDs in your script do match the ones you set up in iTunes Connect, is that correct? >>>>>Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from purchaseStateUpdate. Yes, the lesson is still accurate, I did test it 2 weeks ago. The response from purchaseStateUpdate will arrive *after* you get the purchase dialog and click Buy or Cancel. Kind regards, Panos -- On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 01:27, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account and I'm a > verified test user > with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. > > Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in Settings. > I had to look up how > to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in again while > in Settings, instead > the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an > Apple ID. It does not. > > Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from purchaseStateUpdate. > There's a handler in > the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's all I get. > > How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test account? > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Sep 17 04:25:54 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:25:54 +0200 Subject: LC IDE Menu suddenly is slow / responds slowly Message-ID: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> Hi, i am currently noticing a massive slow down of the LC 9.6.4 IDE menu. Not right away after opening Livecode IDE, but after some time of usage. I never noticed that in 9.6.3. Clicking on an main menu entry takes then about 2 or 3 seconds until i can see the submenu But I am not sure if this is really only an LC problem or due to the fact that i upgraded to Big Sur around the same time as LC 9.6.4 was released. Currently i only notice this slow down of the menu in 9.6.4 and i am not able to see this in 9.6.3. But maybe i am a little bit to impatient and my testing is too short. In the activity monitor i cannot see anything unusual. Now large memory consumption of LC and no high CPU usage. After a restart of LC the IDE menu behaves normal, but some time later it slows down. Is anyone else experiencing the same or a similar behavior? Regards, Matthias From richmondmathewson at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 04:52:14 2021 From: richmondmathewson at gmail.com (Richmond Mathewson) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:52:14 +0300 Subject: LC IDE Menu suddenly is slow / responds slowly In-Reply-To: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> References: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Surely the best way to see whether the slow down is LC 9.6.4 or MacOS Big Sur is to install LC 9.6.3 alongside 9.6.4 However, I should say that as soon as the Monterey (MacOS 12) betas became available I dropped Big Sur (MacOS 11) like a hot potato, and have found MacOS 12 beta far, far better. Personally I look on MacOS 11 as an awful alpha thing best avoided. On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 11:27 AM matthias rebbe via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi, > > i am currently noticing a massive slow down of the LC 9.6.4 IDE menu. Not > right away after opening Livecode IDE, but after some time of usage. > I never noticed that in 9.6.3. Clicking on an main menu entry takes then > about 2 or 3 seconds until i can see the submenu > > But I am not sure if this is really only an LC problem or due to the fact > that i upgraded to Big Sur around the same time as LC 9.6.4 was released. > > Currently i only notice this slow down of the menu in 9.6.4 and i am not > able to see this in 9.6.3. But maybe i am a little bit to impatient and my > testing is too short. > > In the activity monitor i cannot see anything unusual. Now large memory > consumption of LC and no high CPU usage. > > After a restart of LC the IDE menu behaves normal, but some time later it > slows down. > > > Is anyone else experiencing the same or a similar behavior? > > > Regards, > > Matthias > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the Agents of a large number of governments in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. From harrison at all-auctions.com Fri Sep 17 09:49:02 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:49:02 -0400 Subject: LC IDE Menu suddenly is slow / responds slowly In-Reply-To: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> References: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <01C05F4D-2B3B-4C11-A1B9-7A8720E923BB@all-auctions.com> Hi Matthias, Check to see if after later use the memory consumption gets a lot larger. It could be a memory leak, or garbage collection failure. Rick > On Sep 17, 2021, at 4:25 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi, > > i am currently noticing a massive slow down of the LC 9.6.4 IDE menu. Not right away after opening Livecode IDE, but after some time of usage. > I never noticed that in 9.6.3. Clicking on an main menu entry takes then about 2 or 3 seconds until i can see the submenu > > But I am not sure if this is really only an LC problem or due to the fact that i upgraded to Big Sur around the same time as LC 9.6.4 was released. > > Currently i only notice this slow down of the menu in 9.6.4 and i am not able to see this in 9.6.3. But maybe i am a little bit to impatient and my testing is too short. > > In the activity monitor i cannot see anything unusual. Now large memory consumption of LC and no high CPU usage. > > After a restart of LC the IDE menu behaves normal, but some time later it slows down. > > > Is anyone else experiencing the same or a similar behavior? > > > Regards, > > Matthias > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 17 12:37:58 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:37:58 -0500 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> After initiating a purchase I get nothing. No dialog, no errors. It acts like I never pushed the button, the app just sits there. I'm logging everything. The log shows my comment that I'm initiating a purchase. There are no other log entries until the timeout message. The product ID matches the one in iTunes Connect exactly, because I copied it from there and pasted it into my script. (I've hard-coded a single product just for testing because I needed one that was a non-renewable subscription so that I could repurchase several times.) There's one thing I didn't mention. Our Ruby programmer set up a server API in Connect so she could get notice of any refunds. Does that mean that all responses would be going to the server? Even so, you'd think I'd get a dialog about my Apple ID. She's turned it off for now and I'll try again shortly, but she doesn't think that would be an issue. Do you know? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 17, 2021 2:48:49 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: > Hello Jacque, > >>>>>> instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking > for an Apple ID > Yes, this is what should happen. What do you get when trying to make a > purchase? > > I take it that the in-app purchase product IDs in your script do match the > ones you set up in iTunes Connect, is that correct? > >>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from > purchaseStateUpdate. > Yes, the lesson is still accurate, I did test it 2 weeks ago. The response > from purchaseStateUpdate will arrive *after* you get the purchase dialog > and click Buy or Cancel. > > Kind regards, > Panos > -- > > > On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 01:27, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account and I'm a >> verified test user >> with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. >> >> Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in Settings. >> I had to look up how >> to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in again while >> in Settings, instead >> the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an >> Apple ID. It does not. >> >> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from purchaseStateUpdate. >> There's a handler in >> the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's all I get. >> >> How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test account? >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Fri Sep 17 12:44:03 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:44:03 -0400 Subject: LC IDE Menu suddenly is slow / responds slowly In-Reply-To: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> References: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: I've been wrestling with the same IDE slowdown the last couple of days trying to get to the bottom of it. I've tested to make sure its on the IDE and not standalone. It seems to be so. It happens in 9.6.3 as well. I think it has to do with the script editor, see if you experience it with a se closed. Thanks, Tom On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 4:27 AM matthias rebbe via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi, > > i am currently noticing a massive slow down of the LC 9.6.4 IDE menu. Not > right away after opening Livecode IDE, but after some time of usage. > I never noticed that in 9.6.3. Clicking on an main menu entry takes then > about 2 or 3 seconds until i can see the submenu > > But I am not sure if this is really only an LC problem or due to the fact > that i upgraded to Big Sur around the same time as LC 9.6.4 was released. > > Currently i only notice this slow down of the menu in 9.6.4 and i am not > able to see this in 9.6.3. But maybe i am a little bit to impatient and my > testing is too short. > > In the activity monitor i cannot see anything unusual. Now large memory > consumption of LC and no high CPU usage. > > After a restart of LC the IDE menu behaves normal, but some time later it > slows down. > > > Is anyone else experiencing the same or a similar behavior? > > > Regards, > > Matthias > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Sep 17 12:47:04 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:47:04 +0200 Subject: LC IDE Menu suddenly is slow / responds slowly In-Reply-To: <01C05F4D-2B3B-4C11-A1B9-7A8720E923BB@all-auctions.com> References: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> <01C05F4D-2B3B-4C11-A1B9-7A8720E923BB@all-auctions.com> Message-ID: <6BC03E53-D642-4316-9087-415E8C6AF95A@m-r-d.de> Hi Rick, thanks. When this happens, the memory consumption is not significantly higher. Right after start of LC it's about 160MB. When the problem occurs and the IDE menu responds slower then the memory consumption is about 300MB. I will stay with 9.6.3 the next days, so i can see if it's just with 9.6.4 or also with 9.6.3. Matthias > Am 17.09.2021 um 15:49 schrieb Rick Harrison via use-livecode : > > Hi Matthias, > > Check to see if after later use the memory consumption gets a lot larger. > It could be a memory leak, or garbage collection failure. > > Rick > >> On Sep 17, 2021, at 4:25 AM, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> i am currently noticing a massive slow down of the LC 9.6.4 IDE menu. Not right away after opening Livecode IDE, but after some time of usage. >> I never noticed that in 9.6.3. Clicking on an main menu entry takes then about 2 or 3 seconds until i can see the submenu >> >> But I am not sure if this is really only an LC problem or due to the fact that i upgraded to Big Sur around the same time as LC 9.6.4 was released. >> >> Currently i only notice this slow down of the menu in 9.6.4 and i am not able to see this in 9.6.3. But maybe i am a little bit to impatient and my testing is too short. >> >> In the activity monitor i cannot see anything unusual. Now large memory consumption of LC and no high CPU usage. >> >> After a restart of LC the IDE menu behaves normal, but some time later it slows down. >> >> >> Is anyone else experiencing the same or a similar behavior? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Matthias >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 17 13:35:48 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:35:48 -0500 Subject: LC IDE Menu suddenly is slow / responds slowly In-Reply-To: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> References: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <17bf4d42120.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Have you checked the pendingMessages? A while ago Swami posted a slowdown that showed dozens and dozens of repeating IDE messages. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 17, 2021 3:28:12 AM matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > Hi, > > i am currently noticing a massive slow down of the LC 9.6.4 IDE menu. Not > right away after opening Livecode IDE, but after some time of usage. > I never noticed that in 9.6.3. Clicking on an main menu entry takes then > about 2 or 3 seconds until i can see the submenu > > But I am not sure if this is really only an LC problem or due to the fact > that i upgraded to Big Sur around the same time as LC 9.6.4 was released. > > Currently i only notice this slow down of the menu in 9.6.4 and i am not > able to see this in 9.6.3. But maybe i am a little bit to impatient and my > testing is too short. > > In the activity monitor i cannot see anything unusual. Now large memory > consumption of LC and no high CPU usage. > > After a restart of LC the IDE menu behaves normal, but some time later it > slows down. > > > Is anyone else experiencing the same or a similar behavior? > > > Regards, > > Matthias > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From merakosp at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 14:34:55 2021 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis m) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 21:34:55 +0300 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Hello Jacque, How do you initiate a purchase? Have you called mobileStoreEnablePurchaseUpdates? This command creates a "channel" for communicating with the app store. Since you get no response at all, it seems for some reason this channel is not created. Can you share your purchase code? Kind regards, Panos On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 19:39 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > After initiating a purchase I get nothing. No dialog, no errors. It acts > like I never pushed the button, the app just sits there. I'm logging > everything. The log shows my comment that I'm initiating a purchase. There > are no other log entries until the timeout message. > > > The product ID matches the one in iTunes Connect exactly, because I copied > it from there and pasted it into my script. (I've hard-coded a single > product just for testing because I needed one that was a non-renewable > subscription so that I could repurchase several times.) > > > There's one thing I didn't mention. Our Ruby programmer set up a server > API > in Connect so she could get notice of any refunds. Does that mean that all > responses would be going to the server? Even so, you'd think I'd get a > dialog about my Apple ID. She's turned it off for now and I'll try again > shortly, but she doesn't think that would be an issue. Do you know? > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 17, 2021 2:48:49 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode > wrote: > > > Hello Jacque, > > > >>>>>> instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog > asking > > for an Apple ID > > Yes, this is what should happen. What do you get when trying to make a > > purchase? > > > > I take it that the in-app purchase product IDs in your script do match > the > > ones you set up in iTunes Connect, is that correct? > > > >>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from > > purchaseStateUpdate. > > Yes, the lesson is still accurate, I did test it 2 weeks ago. The > response > > from purchaseStateUpdate will arrive *after* you get the purchase dialog > > and click Buy or Cancel. > > > > Kind regards, > > Panos > > -- > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 01:27, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account and > I'm a > >> verified test user > >> with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. > >> > >> Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in > Settings. > >> I had to look up how > >> to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in again > while > >> in Settings, instead > >> the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an > >> Apple ID. It does not. > >> > >> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from > purchaseStateUpdate. > >> There's a handler in > >> the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's all I > get. > >> > >> How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test account? > >> > >> -- > >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 17 14:52:54 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:52:54 -0500 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Here's what I'm doing. The initial request is set up for testing, the capitalized parts will be removed later. on purchaseIAPProduct pProductID,pQuantity -- pProductID = the reverse-domain store ID -- pQuantity = The number of pProductIDs to purchase. Defaults to 1 if mobileStoreCanMakePurchase() = false then -- purchasing disabled LOG "mobileStoreCanMakePurchase = FALSE" doAnswer "Purchasing is not enabled on this device." exit purchaseIAPProduct end if -- init: put empty into sCurrentStatus put empty into sIAPErrorText if pQuantity is not a number then put 1 into pQuantity if sTimeout is not a number then put 120 into sTimeout send "IAPtimeout" to me in sTimeout seconds put the result into sTimerID IF THE CRELEASE OF THIS STACK <> TRUE THEN PUT "com.wordathand.fpmobile.testsub" INTO pProductID LOG "BEGIN IAP PURCHASE:" && pProductID mobileStoreEnablePurchaseUpdates mobileStoreSetProductType pProductID, "inapp" -- required for Play Store; compatible with App Store mobileStoreMakePurchase pProductID, pQuantity end purchaseIAPProduct on purchaseStateUpdate pPurchaseID, pProductID, pState LOG "Purchase state:" && pProductID && pState &&"|" && "PurchaseID:" && pPurchaseID put pState into sCurrentStatus ... etc. end purchaseStateUpdate on IAPtimeout -- If the process does not complete in sTimeout seconds we wind up here mobileDisablePurchaseUpdates put "timeout" into sCurrentStatus put "Purchase has timed out" into sIAPErrorText IAPPurchaseComplete false, sCurrentStatus, sIAPErrorText end IAPtimeout IAPPurchaseComplete is the equivalent of the lesson's offerPurchase if it receives "true", only in this case I send data to the backend server. Of course, this handler never gets a chance to run. One other thing: the fake product ID doesn't have the same reverse-domain as the real products. I wanted to make sure it didn't get confused with the real ones. I can't imagine that matters but thought I'd mention it. On 9/17/21 1:34 PM, panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: > Hello Jacque, > > How do you initiate a purchase? Have you called > mobileStoreEnablePurchaseUpdates? This command creates a "channel" for > communicating with the app store. Since you get no response at all, it > seems for some reason this channel is not created. Can you share your > purchase code? > > Kind regards, > Panos > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 19:39 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> After initiating a purchase I get nothing. No dialog, no errors. It acts >> like I never pushed the button, the app just sits there. I'm logging >> everything. The log shows my comment that I'm initiating a purchase. There >> are no other log entries until the timeout message. >> >> >> The product ID matches the one in iTunes Connect exactly, because I copied >> it from there and pasted it into my script. (I've hard-coded a single >> product just for testing because I needed one that was a non-renewable >> subscription so that I could repurchase several times.) >> >> >> There's one thing I didn't mention. Our Ruby programmer set up a server >> API >> in Connect so she could get notice of any refunds. Does that mean that all >> responses would be going to the server? Even so, you'd think I'd get a >> dialog about my Apple ID. She's turned it off for now and I'll try again >> shortly, but she doesn't think that would be an issue. Do you know? >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On September 17, 2021 2:48:49 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Jacque, >>> >>>>>>>> instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog >> asking >>> for an Apple ID >>> Yes, this is what should happen. What do you get when trying to make a >>> purchase? >>> >>> I take it that the in-app purchase product IDs in your script do match >> the >>> ones you set up in iTunes Connect, is that correct? >>> >>>>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from >>> purchaseStateUpdate. >>> Yes, the lesson is still accurate, I did test it 2 weeks ago. The >> response >>> from purchaseStateUpdate will arrive *after* you get the purchase dialog >>> and click Buy or Cancel. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Panos >>> -- >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 01:27, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account and >> I'm a >>>> verified test user >>>> with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. >>>> >>>> Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in >> Settings. >>>> I had to look up how >>>> to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in again >> while >>>> in Settings, instead >>>> the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an >>>> Apple ID. It does not. >>>> >>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from >> purchaseStateUpdate. >>>> There's a handler in >>>> the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's all I >> get. >>>> >>>> How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test account? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 17 15:50:09 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:50:09 -0500 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <7c3c747a-351d-c4c5-d3aa-68951e37fba8@hyperactivesw.com> Panos, the LC lesson says the mobileStoreMakePurchase command sends the request and begins the purchasing process. The behavior I'm seeing is that the request isn't being sent at all. The older syntax has a specific mobilePurchaseSendRequest command, which the newer syntax does not use. Should I add that to my script? Will it hurt if I do? On 9/17/21 1:34 PM, panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: > Hello Jacque, > > How do you initiate a purchase? Have you called > mobileStoreEnablePurchaseUpdates? This command creates a "channel" for > communicating with the app store. Since you get no response at all, it > seems for some reason this channel is not created. Can you share your > purchase code? > > Kind regards, > Panos > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 19:39 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> After initiating a purchase I get nothing. No dialog, no errors. It acts >> like I never pushed the button, the app just sits there. I'm logging >> everything. The log shows my comment that I'm initiating a purchase. There >> are no other log entries until the timeout message. >> >> >> The product ID matches the one in iTunes Connect exactly, because I copied >> it from there and pasted it into my script. (I've hard-coded a single >> product just for testing because I needed one that was a non-renewable >> subscription so that I could repurchase several times.) >> >> >> There's one thing I didn't mention. Our Ruby programmer set up a server >> API >> in Connect so she could get notice of any refunds. Does that mean that all >> responses would be going to the server? Even so, you'd think I'd get a >> dialog about my Apple ID. She's turned it off for now and I'll try again >> shortly, but she doesn't think that would be an issue. Do you know? >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On September 17, 2021 2:48:49 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Jacque, >>> >>>>>>>> instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog >> asking >>> for an Apple ID >>> Yes, this is what should happen. What do you get when trying to make a >>> purchase? >>> >>> I take it that the in-app purchase product IDs in your script do match >> the >>> ones you set up in iTunes Connect, is that correct? >>> >>>>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from >>> purchaseStateUpdate. >>> Yes, the lesson is still accurate, I did test it 2 weeks ago. The >> response >>> from purchaseStateUpdate will arrive *after* you get the purchase dialog >>> and click Buy or Cancel. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Panos >>> -- >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 01:27, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account and >> I'm a >>>> verified test user >>>> with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. >>>> >>>> Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in >> Settings. >>>> I had to look up how >>>> to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in again >> while >>>> in Settings, instead >>>> the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an >>>> Apple ID. It does not. >>>> >>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from >> purchaseStateUpdate. >>>> There's a handler in >>>> the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's all I >> get. >>>> >>>> How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test account? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From merakosp at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 16:22:58 2021 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis m) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 23:22:58 +0300 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: <7c3c747a-351d-c4c5-d3aa-68951e37fba8@hyperactivesw.com> References: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <7c3c747a-351d-c4c5-d3aa-68951e37fba8@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Hello Jacque, I am away from my machine now, so I cannot test, but I would suggest you try with the simplest example first, that is to use the sample stack of the lesson, and just change the in-app product IDs to match yours. If this works for you (by "works" I mean at least to show the in-app purchase dialog), it means that something in your script blocks the communication. If this is the case, I am happy to investigate until we find the culprit. Kind regards, Panos Ps: I take it you are testing on a physical device, not in the simulator, is that correct? On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 22:51 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Panos, the LC lesson says the mobileStoreMakePurchase command sends the > request and begins the > purchasing process. The behavior I'm seeing is that the request isn't > being sent at all. > > The older syntax has a specific mobilePurchaseSendRequest command, which > the newer syntax does > not use. Should I add that to my script? Will it hurt if I do? > > On 9/17/21 1:34 PM, panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello Jacque, > > > > How do you initiate a purchase? Have you called > > mobileStoreEnablePurchaseUpdates? This command creates a "channel" for > > communicating with the app store. Since you get no response at all, it > > seems for some reason this channel is not created. Can you share your > > purchase code? > > > > Kind regards, > > Panos > > > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 19:39 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> After initiating a purchase I get nothing. No dialog, no errors. It acts > >> like I never pushed the button, the app just sits there. I'm logging > >> everything. The log shows my comment that I'm initiating a purchase. > There > >> are no other log entries until the timeout message. > >> > >> > >> The product ID matches the one in iTunes Connect exactly, because I > copied > >> it from there and pasted it into my script. (I've hard-coded a single > >> product just for testing because I needed one that was a non-renewable > >> subscription so that I could repurchase several times.) > >> > >> > >> There's one thing I didn't mention. Our Ruby programmer set up a server > >> API > >> in Connect so she could get notice of any refunds. Does that mean that > all > >> responses would be going to the server? Even so, you'd think I'd get a > >> dialog about my Apple ID. She's turned it off for now and I'll try again > >> shortly, but she doesn't think that would be an issue. Do you know? > >> > >> -- > >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > >> On September 17, 2021 2:48:49 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hello Jacque, > >>> > >>>>>>>> instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog > >> asking > >>> for an Apple ID > >>> Yes, this is what should happen. What do you get when trying to make a > >>> purchase? > >>> > >>> I take it that the in-app purchase product IDs in your script do match > >> the > >>> ones you set up in iTunes Connect, is that correct? > >>> > >>>>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from > >>> purchaseStateUpdate. > >>> Yes, the lesson is still accurate, I did test it 2 weeks ago. The > >> response > >>> from purchaseStateUpdate will arrive *after* you get the purchase > dialog > >>> and click Buy or Cancel. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> Panos > >>> -- > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 01:27, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account and > >> I'm a > >>>> verified test user > >>>> with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. > >>>> > >>>> Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in > >> Settings. > >>>> I had to look up how > >>>> to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in again > >> while > >>>> in Settings, instead > >>>> the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an > >>>> Apple ID. It does not. > >>>> > >>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from > >> purchaseStateUpdate. > >>>> There's a handler in > >>>> the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's all I > >> get. > >>>> > >>>> How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test > account? > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > >>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> use-livecode mailing list > >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>>> subscription preferences: > >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> use-livecode mailing list > >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >>> subscription preferences: > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> use-livecode mailing list > >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > >> subscription preferences: > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Fri Sep 17 18:25:38 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 17:25:38 -0500 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <7c3c747a-351d-c4c5-d3aa-68951e37fba8@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Yes, I tested on real devices, both an iPad and an iPhone. I also just set up testing on the Google Play Store and got the same non-results. I will look at the test stack in the lesson, thanks Panos. On 9/17/21 3:22 PM, panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: > Hello Jacque, > > I am away from my machine now, so I cannot test, but I would suggest you > try with the simplest example first, that is to use the sample stack of the > lesson, and just change the in-app product IDs to match yours. If this > works for you (by "works" I mean at least to show the in-app purchase > dialog), it means that something in your script blocks the communication. > If this is the case, I am happy to investigate until we find the culprit. > > Kind regards, > Panos > > Ps: I take it you are testing on a physical device, not in the simulator, > is that correct? > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 22:51 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Panos, the LC lesson says the mobileStoreMakePurchase command sends the >> request and begins the >> purchasing process. The behavior I'm seeing is that the request isn't >> being sent at all. >> >> The older syntax has a specific mobilePurchaseSendRequest command, which >> the newer syntax does >> not use. Should I add that to my script? Will it hurt if I do? >> >> On 9/17/21 1:34 PM, panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hello Jacque, >>> >>> How do you initiate a purchase? Have you called >>> mobileStoreEnablePurchaseUpdates? This command creates a "channel" for >>> communicating with the app store. Since you get no response at all, it >>> seems for some reason this channel is not created. Can you share your >>> purchase code? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Panos >>> >>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 19:39 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> After initiating a purchase I get nothing. No dialog, no errors. It acts >>>> like I never pushed the button, the app just sits there. I'm logging >>>> everything. The log shows my comment that I'm initiating a purchase. >> There >>>> are no other log entries until the timeout message. >>>> >>>> >>>> The product ID matches the one in iTunes Connect exactly, because I >> copied >>>> it from there and pasted it into my script. (I've hard-coded a single >>>> product just for testing because I needed one that was a non-renewable >>>> subscription so that I could repurchase several times.) >>>> >>>> >>>> There's one thing I didn't mention. Our Ruby programmer set up a server >>>> API >>>> in Connect so she could get notice of any refunds. Does that mean that >> all >>>> responses would be going to the server? Even so, you'd think I'd get a >>>> dialog about my Apple ID. She's turned it off for now and I'll try again >>>> shortly, but she doesn't think that would be an issue. Do you know? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >>>> On September 17, 2021 2:48:49 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Jacque, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog >>>> asking >>>>> for an Apple ID >>>>> Yes, this is what should happen. What do you get when trying to make a >>>>> purchase? >>>>> >>>>> I take it that the in-app purchase product IDs in your script do match >>>> the >>>>> ones you set up in iTunes Connect, is that correct? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from >>>>> purchaseStateUpdate. >>>>> Yes, the lesson is still accurate, I did test it 2 weeks ago. The >>>> response >>>>> from purchaseStateUpdate will arrive *after* you get the purchase >> dialog >>>>> and click Buy or Cancel. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Panos >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 01:27, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account and >>>> I'm a >>>>>> verified test user >>>>>> with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. >>>>>> >>>>>> Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in >>>> Settings. >>>>>> I had to look up how >>>>>> to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in again >>>> while >>>>>> in Settings, instead >>>>>> the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking for an >>>>>> Apple ID. It does not. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from >>>> purchaseStateUpdate. >>>>>> There's a handler in >>>>>> the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's all I >>>> get. >>>>>> >>>>>> How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test >> account? >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >>>>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Sep 17 19:04:50 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 23:04:50 +0000 Subject: Last record of a cursor? Message-ID: <3DEB8816-F5B1-43C2-AEEF-009F7D9DEF2E@iotecdigital.com> Hi all. I am trying to discern between when I have an empty cursor, and when I have reached the last record of a cursor. I have noticed that if I query a database that returns no results, I still get a cursor ID, so I cannot test for a cursor ID. So after my loop to convert a cursor to an array, I check to see if I am on the last record by using put revCurrentRecord(pCursorID) into tLastRecord, then testing to see if it returns 0, which it will if the cursor is empty. But it seems that if I am already on the last record of the cursor, then I use revMoveToNextRecord pCursorID, revCurrentRecord ALSO RETURNS 0! So now I am left without a way to tell if the cursor is empty, or if otherwise, I have reached the last record. How is this done?? Normally I use sqlYoga so these things are spared me, but in this instance I am using the native API calls. Bob S From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Fri Sep 17 19:14:14 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 19:14:14 -0400 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <7c3c747a-351d-c4c5-d3aa-68951e37fba8@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <005901d7ac19$be5c2a30$3b147e90$@net> Might we have a message path issue here? Put a test "purchaseStateUpdate" in the card of the stack that you are starting this in. Ralph DiMola IT Director rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 6:26 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: J. Landman Gay Subject: Re: IAP in App Store Yes, I tested on real devices, both an iPad and an iPhone. I also just set up testing on the Google Play Store and got the same non-results. I will look at the test stack in the lesson, thanks Panos. On 9/17/21 3:22 PM, panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: > Hello Jacque, > > I am away from my machine now, so I cannot test, but I would suggest > you try with the simplest example first, that is to use the sample > stack of the lesson, and just change the in-app product IDs to match > yours. If this works for you (by "works" I mean at least to show the > in-app purchase dialog), it means that something in your script blocks the communication. > If this is the case, I am happy to investigate until we find the culprit. > > Kind regards, > Panos > > Ps: I take it you are testing on a physical device, not in the > simulator, is that correct? > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 22:51 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Panos, the LC lesson says the mobileStoreMakePurchase command sends >> the request and begins the purchasing process. The behavior I'm >> seeing is that the request isn't being sent at all. >> >> The older syntax has a specific mobilePurchaseSendRequest command, >> which the newer syntax does not use. Should I add that to my script? >> Will it hurt if I do? >> >> On 9/17/21 1:34 PM, panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: >>> Hello Jacque, >>> >>> How do you initiate a purchase? Have you called >>> mobileStoreEnablePurchaseUpdates? This command creates a "channel" >>> for communicating with the app store. Since you get no response at >>> all, it seems for some reason this channel is not created. Can you >>> share your purchase code? >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Panos >>> >>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2021, 19:39 J. Landman Gay via use-livecode, < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> After initiating a purchase I get nothing. No dialog, no errors. It >>>> acts like I never pushed the button, the app just sits there. I'm >>>> logging everything. The log shows my comment that I'm initiating a purchase. >> There >>>> are no other log entries until the timeout message. >>>> >>>> >>>> The product ID matches the one in iTunes Connect exactly, because I >> copied >>>> it from there and pasted it into my script. (I've hard-coded a >>>> single product just for testing because I needed one that was a >>>> non-renewable subscription so that I could repurchase several >>>> times.) >>>> >>>> >>>> There's one thing I didn't mention. Our Ruby programmer set up a >>>> server API in Connect so she could get notice of any refunds. Does >>>> that mean that >> all >>>> responses would be going to the server? Even so, you'd think I'd >>>> get a dialog about my Apple ID. She's turned it off for now and >>>> I'll try again shortly, but she doesn't think that would be an issue. Do you know? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive >>>> Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 17, 2021 >>>> 2:48:49 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Jacque, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> instead the next call to make a purchase should pop up a >>>>>>>>>> dialog >>>> asking >>>>> for an Apple ID >>>>> Yes, this is what should happen. What do you get when trying to >>>>> make a purchase? >>>>> >>>>> I take it that the in-app purchase product IDs in your script do >>>>> match >>>> the >>>>> ones you set up in iTunes Connect, is that correct? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from >>>>> purchaseStateUpdate. >>>>> Yes, the lesson is still accurate, I did test it 2 weeks ago. The >>>> response >>>>> from purchaseStateUpdate will arrive *after* you get the purchase >> dialog >>>>> and click Buy or Cancel. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> Panos >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 01:27, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm trying to test IAP in the App Store. I have a tester account >>>>>> and >>>> I'm a >>>>>> verified test user >>>>>> with a new Apple ID that is not used anywhere else. >>>>>> >>>>>> Following the LC lesson, it says to sign out of the app store in >>>> Settings. >>>>>> I had to look up how >>>>>> to do that in iOS 14, and did so. It also said not to sign in >>>>>> again >>>> while >>>>>> in Settings, instead >>>>>> the next call to make a purchase should pop up a dialog asking >>>>>> for an Apple ID. It does not. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the lesson accurate? I get no response at all from >>>> purchaseStateUpdate. >>>>>> There's a handler in >>>>>> the script that triggers a timeout after 2 minutes, and that's >>>>>> all I >>>> get. >>>>>> >>>>>> How do I trigger the sign-in dialog so I can log in as my test >> account? >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >>>>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>>> subscription preferences: >>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>>> subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> >> >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Fri Sep 17 19:23:16 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 19:23:16 -0400 Subject: Last record of a cursor? In-Reply-To: <3DEB8816-F5B1-43C2-AEEF-009F7D9DEF2E@iotecdigital.com> References: <3DEB8816-F5B1-43C2-AEEF-009F7D9DEF2E@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: <005a01d7ac1b$00f13060$02d39120$@net> Bob, See: revQueryIsAtEnd revnumberofrecords If the number of records is 0 then no results were returned. If revQueryIsAtEnd is true then you're at the end. This will happen after you do an additional revMoveToNextRecord when on the last record. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 7:05 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Bob Sneidar Subject: Last record of a cursor? Hi all. I am trying to discern between when I have an empty cursor, and when I have reached the last record of a cursor. I have noticed that if I query a database that returns no results, I still get a cursor ID, so I cannot test for a cursor ID. So after my loop to convert a cursor to an array, I check to see if I am on the last record by using put revCurrentRecord(pCursorID) into tLastRecord, then testing to see if it returns 0, which it will if the cursor is empty. But it seems that if I am already on the last record of the cursor, then I use revMoveToNextRecord pCursorID, revCurrentRecord ALSO RETURNS 0! So now I am left without a way to tell if the cursor is empty, or if otherwise, I have reached the last record. How is this done?? Normally I use sqlYoga so these things are spared me, but in this instance I am using the native API calls. Bob S _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Sep 17 19:33:00 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 23:33:00 +0000 Subject: Last record of a cursor? In-Reply-To: <3DEB8816-F5B1-43C2-AEEF-009F7D9DEF2E@iotecdigital.com> References: <3DEB8816-F5B1-43C2-AEEF-009F7D9DEF2E@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Okay something is not right with the API! First, my query in my script is set to: SELECT * from files where siteid = '1659' If I run this in mySQLWorkbench, I get one record, so I know the query works. Also, I know the cursor contains records, because as I step through the loops which get the column values, I can see the vlaues in the variables populate when I use: put revDatabaseColumnNumbered(pCursorID, i) into tColumnValue Here is the rub though. The first record of a cursor is 0. ZERO!!! And if there is only one record, guess what the LAST record is??? ZERO!!!!! Does that make the least bit of sense to ANYONE??? There is no call that I can find to get the number of records of a cursor! Therefore I can NEVER TELL if a cursor contains any records. If anyone has a method for doing so, your help will be very much appreciated. Bob S > On Sep 17, 2021, at 16:04 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi all. > > I am trying to discern between when I have an empty cursor, and when I have reached the last record of a cursor. > > I have noticed that if I query a database that returns no results, I still get a cursor ID, so I cannot test for a cursor ID. So after my loop to convert a cursor to an array, I check to see if I am on the last record by using put revCurrentRecord(pCursorID) into tLastRecord, then testing to see if it returns 0, which it will if the cursor is empty. > > But it seems that if I am already on the last record of the cursor, then I use revMoveToNextRecord pCursorID, revCurrentRecord ALSO RETURNS 0! So now I am left without a way to tell if the cursor is empty, or if otherwise, I have reached the last record. > > How is this done?? Normally I use sqlYoga so these things are spared me, but in this instance I am using the native API calls. > > Bob S > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Sep 17 19:34:05 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 23:34:05 +0000 Subject: Last record of a cursor? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEB8816-F5B1-43C2-AEEF-009F7D9DEF2E@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Oh sorry, I posted this just before Ralph replied. Thanks Ralph I will try your suggestions. Bob S > On Sep 17, 2021, at 16:32 , Bob Sneidar wrote: > > Okay something is not right with the API! First, my query in my script is set to: > > SELECT * from files where siteid = '1659' > > If I run this in mySQLWorkbench, I get one record, so I know the query works. Also, I know the cursor contains records, because as I step through the loops which get the column values, I can see the vlaues in the variables populate when I use: > > put revDatabaseColumnNumbered(pCursorID, i) into tColumnValue > > Here is the rub though. The first record of a cursor is 0. ZERO!!! And if there is only one record, guess what the LAST record is??? ZERO!!!!! > > Does that make the least bit of sense to ANYONE??? There is no call that I can find to get the number of records of a cursor! Therefore I can NEVER TELL if a cursor contains any records. > > If anyone has a method for doing so, your help will be very much appreciated. > > Bob S > >> On Sep 17, 2021, at 16:04 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hi all. >> >> I am trying to discern between when I have an empty cursor, and when I have reached the last record of a cursor. >> >> I have noticed that if I query a database that returns no results, I still get a cursor ID, so I cannot test for a cursor ID. So after my loop to convert a cursor to an array, I check to see if I am on the last record by using put revCurrentRecord(pCursorID) into tLastRecord, then testing to see if it returns 0, which it will if the cursor is empty. >> >> But it seems that if I am already on the last record of the cursor, then I use revMoveToNextRecord pCursorID, revCurrentRecord ALSO RETURNS 0! So now I am left without a way to tell if the cursor is empty, or if otherwise, I have reached the last record. >> >> How is this done?? Normally I use sqlYoga so these things are spared me, but in this instance I am using the native API calls. >> >> Bob S >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Fri Sep 17 21:12:11 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 01:12:11 +0000 Subject: Last record of a cursor? In-Reply-To: References: <3DEB8816-F5B1-43C2-AEEF-009F7D9DEF2E@iotecdigital.com> Message-ID: Ralph, thanks for the tip. Those handlers were just what I needed. Not sure why I couldn?t find them when I perused the dictionary. Getting daft in my senior years I suppose. I still think it?s inane though, having the first record and last record be 0 when there?s one record. Cannot change it now though. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 17, 2021, at 16:35, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Oh sorry, I posted this just before Ralph replied. Thanks Ralph I will try your suggestions. > > Bob S > > >> On Sep 17, 2021, at 16:32 , Bob Sneidar wrote: >> >> Okay something is not right with the API! First, my query in my script is set to: >> >> SELECT * from files where siteid = '1659' >> >> If I run this in mySQLWorkbench, I get one record, so I know the query works. Also, I know the cursor contains records, because as I step through the loops which get the column values, I can see the vlaues in the variables populate when I use: >> >> put revDatabaseColumnNumbered(pCursorID, i) into tColumnValue >> >> Here is the rub though. The first record of a cursor is 0. ZERO!!! And if there is only one record, guess what the LAST record is??? ZERO!!!!! >> >> Does that make the least bit of sense to ANYONE??? There is no call that I can find to get the number of records of a cursor! Therefore I can NEVER TELL if a cursor contains any records. >> >> If anyone has a method for doing so, your help will be very much appreciated. >> >> Bob S >> >>>> On Sep 17, 2021, at 16:04 , Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> Hi all. >>> >>> I am trying to discern between when I have an empty cursor, and when I have reached the last record of a cursor. >>> >>> I have noticed that if I query a database that returns no results, I still get a cursor ID, so I cannot test for a cursor ID. So after my loop to convert a cursor to an array, I check to see if I am on the last record by using put revCurrentRecord(pCursorID) into tLastRecord, then testing to see if it returns 0, which it will if the cursor is empty. >>> >>> But it seems that if I am already on the last record of the cursor, then I use revMoveToNextRecord pCursorID, revCurrentRecord ALSO RETURNS 0! So now I am left without a way to tell if the cursor is empty, or if otherwise, I have reached the last record. >>> >>> How is this done?? Normally I use sqlYoga so these things are spared me, but in this instance I am using the native API calls. >>> >>> Bob S >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Sat Sep 18 04:06:46 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:06:46 +0100 Subject: Licensing model change In-Reply-To: <67734C45-E0CB-48AC-9BDA-402310F9C951@livecode.com> References: <67734C45-E0CB-48AC-9BDA-402310F9C951@livecode.com> Message-ID: <148C152B-B9D1-4C98-9462-327CB9E21074@pidigital.co.uk> > Licensing emails are going out, Did everyone else receive theirs? I still haven?t heard anything. I wasn?t going to push or be impatient but it?s been on my mind. Just wondering if I somehow got forgotten or they at just struggling to get through the tens of paying users. Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 31 Aug 2021, at 19:34, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > > ?I don't know your specific license plan and Heather has left for the evening, however generally if we promised something in the past we do honour it. Licensing emails are going out, if you don't have yours by tomorrow feel free to drop us a line in support. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin > > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > From andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com Sat Sep 18 09:50:55 2021 From: andrew at midwestcoastmedia.com (Andrew at MidWest Coast Media) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:50:55 -0400 Subject: "Unknown error." in LC when trying to test to connected ios device In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can?t remember if it throws that specific error, but I recall having problems when testing to a device with a Development profile and Beta checked in the Standalone Application settings. This would happen even if your profiles were clean. Are you using a Dev or Distro profile while testing? ?Andrew Bell >> >>> On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>> Mac OS 11.5.2 >>> LC 9.6.2 >>> XCode 12.1 >>> I choose a device from the Development->Test Target menu, then select >>> Development->Test >>> We get as far as the app getting signed, and then the error is thrown. >>> I'm pretty sure the certs and profiles are current, since I manually >>> removed them and then used XC to reinstall them. >>> Suggestions? >>> > From iphonelagi at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 12:00:22 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 17:00:22 +0100 Subject: Android SDK lesson Message-ID: Hi I have not compiled for Android for nearly 3 years now and Ive had new machines. I want to install the SDK and I remember the problems I had originally - so to save my mental health Can someone (Panos?) point me to the LATEST lessons for the latest version that will install with 1 press of a button please (sarcasm). I have the lesson here https://lessons.livecode.com/m/2571/l/625198-livecode-and-android-studio But it mentions Java 8 and to uninstall 9 and 10 (I have none installed on this machine) Thanks in advance Regards Lagi From bdrunrev at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 14:20:16 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 19:20:16 +0100 Subject: Android SDK lesson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good luck with that. For the last two people I helped on the Forum with that issue, it turned out that Google had provided a version of Android Studio where key build tools were missing. I discovered this after days of investigation in trying to help people get their setup working and after I uploaded a 300mb zip file to the cloud which the user used to replace the relevant folder in his Android Studio installation. Google broke AS on both Linux and OSX (and possibly Windows too). You can see the big yellow warning callouts in the Lesson to which you link. There's probably more replies to that Livecode Lesson than any other. I've advised LC Ltd on what I think they should do to simply the install/setup for Android development. Considering that Google broke the later versions of their tool and Google hide the unbroken versions (not to mention the lunacy of Google's naming-numbering), you are not going to find a one button solution from LC that works around all those issues. Regards, Bernard On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 5:01 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi > > I have not compiled for Android for nearly 3 years now and Ive had new > machines. I want to install the SDK and I remember the > problems I had originally - so to save my mental health > > Can someone (Panos?) point me to the LATEST lessons for the latest version > that will install with 1 press of a button please (sarcasm). > > I have the lesson here > > https://lessons.livecode.com/m/2571/l/625198-livecode-and-android-studio > > But it mentions Java 8 and to uninstall 9 and 10 (I have none installed on > this machine) > > Thanks in advance > > Regards Lagi > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From iphonelagi at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 15:15:49 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 20:15:49 +0100 Subject: Android SDK lesson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bernard, Thanks for answering, I was being sarcastic and did not expect a fire and forget to install, but at least one that didn't entail swearing at inanimate objects,, software and companies big and small. . What I actually hoped for was a pointer to the de facto thread that means I don't have to spend days looking for problems that others have solved There are lots of threads but I have yet to find one that is definitive for the latest version or at least 1 version back. Like I always say - developers should always eat their own dog food (to personal friends I don't use the words dog food - you know what i mean?) I will look for a thread by you and expect that it should be the latest unless you say otherwise - you didn't say if it works on the latest yet though - which version of indy should I use? Regards Lagi On Sat, 18 Sept 2021 at 19:22, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Good luck with that. For the last two people I helped on the Forum with > that issue, it turned out that Google had provided a version of Android > Studio where key build tools were missing. I discovered this after days of > investigation in trying to help people get their setup working and after I > uploaded a 300mb zip file to the cloud which the user used to replace the > relevant folder in his Android Studio installation. Google broke AS on both > Linux and OSX (and possibly Windows too). > > You can see the big yellow warning callouts in the Lesson to which you > link. There's probably more replies to that Livecode Lesson than any > other. I've advised LC Ltd on what I think they should do to simply the > install/setup for Android development. > > Considering that Google broke the later versions of their tool and Google > hide the unbroken versions (not to mention the lunacy of Google's > naming-numbering), you are not going to find a one button solution from LC > that works around all those issues. > > Regards, Bernard > > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 5:01 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > Hi > > > > I have not compiled for Android for nearly 3 years now and Ive had new > > machines. I want to install the SDK and I remember the > > problems I had originally - so to save my mental health > > > > Can someone (Panos?) point me to the LATEST lessons for the latest > version > > that will install with 1 press of a button please (sarcasm). > > > > I have the lesson here > > > > https://lessons.livecode.com/m/2571/l/625198-livecode-and-android-studio > > > > But it mentions Java 8 and to uninstall 9 and 10 (I have none installed > on > > this machine) > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > Regards Lagi > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Sat Sep 18 17:22:30 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 16:22:30 -0500 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: <17bf49f2e70.2749.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <7c3c747a-351d-c4c5-d3aa-68951e37fba8@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <4372ebfc-bf03-0bd6-f8e7-ef546d69d38f@hyperactivesw.com> @Panos: Progress. I now know why a login dialog was not showing up and why a channel wasn't created. The command "mobileStoreMakePurchase" absolutely requires three parameters. I omitted the payload string (third param) because I didn't need it and it wasn't required for iOS. I assumed it would be empty and treated accordingly. It isn't. If the third param is omitted, the script compiles okay but apparently aborts with no error message and no information when the app runs on the device. There is no clue why nothing is happening. On the off chance that was the problem I add the string "payload here" and bingo, I got the App Store login dialog. I am still not getting any status reports in purchaseStateUpdate and the purchase times out. But at least I'm logged in now. Suggestion: if a third param is missing, LC should throw an error at runtime. We'd all be saner. On 9/17/21 5:25 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > Yes, I tested on real devices, both an iPad and an iPhone. I also just set up testing on the > Google Play Store and got the same non-results. > > I will look at the test stack in the lesson, thanks Panos. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com From curry at pair.com Sun Sep 19 03:21:46 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 03:21:46 -0400 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: <4372ebfc-bf03-0bd6-f8e7-ef546d69d38f@hyperactivesw.com> References: <4372ebfc-bf03-0bd6-f8e7-ef546d69d38f@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Jacqueline: > If the third param is omitted, the script compiles okay > but apparently aborts with no error message > and no information when the app runs on the device. Hey LC Team: This may be not merely a bug, but also a "bad habit" in coding practice. A habit that leads to multiple bugs. I've seen similar "aborts" that halt execution but otherwise fail without warning or info. The LCS equivalent would be a tendency to overuse "exit to top" in situations where a "return" or an error bailout would be more appropriate. Perhaps only intended as a temporary placeholder and forgotten, but either way, a better habit would reduce the number of future bugs/glitches that follow this pattern. Thanks.... Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From bdrunrev at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 05:32:08 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 10:32:08 +0100 Subject: Android SDK lesson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lagi I'd suggest following the Lesson as the most straightforward route. Let us know if that doesn't work. Regards, Bernard On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 8:17 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > I will look for a thread by you and expect that it should be the latest > unless you say otherwise - you didn't say if it works on the latest yet > though - which version of indy should I use? > > Regards Lagi > > > From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Sun Sep 19 12:40:21 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 11:40:21 -0500 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: <4372ebfc-bf03-0bd6-f8e7-ef546d69d38f@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <17bfeee1120.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Even a note in the documentation would help. I spent two weeks trying to figure out the problem. Was it my store setup? The iPhone? My script, which was based on the lesson example? Did I set up my store products wrong? Just where should I look? By the time I posted here I was a walking mass of frustration and my husband knew to hide in a closet. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 19, 2021 2:24:18 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > Jacqueline: > > > If the third param is omitted, the script compiles okay > > but apparently aborts with no error message > > and no information when the app runs on the device. > > Hey LC Team: This may be not merely a bug, > but also a "bad habit" in coding practice. > A habit that leads to multiple bugs. > > I've seen similar "aborts" that halt execution > but otherwise fail without warning or info. > > The LCS equivalent would be a tendency > to overuse "exit to top" in situations > where a "return" or an error bailout > would be more appropriate. > > Perhaps only intended as a temporary placeholder > and forgotten, but either way, a better habit > would reduce the number of future bugs/glitches > that follow this pattern. Thanks.... > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From tom at makeshyft.com Sun Sep 19 16:30:52 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 16:30:52 -0400 Subject: LC IDE Menu suddenly is slow / responds slowly In-Reply-To: <17bf4d42120.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <4CF79CCF-F85E-4188-8B11-018D2052179F@m-r-d.de> <17bf4d42120.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Things seem better when the message window is closed ..... I also disabled all the script autocompletion options. So its one or more of those things. Will test more later. On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 1:37 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Have you checked the pendingMessages? A while ago Swami posted a slowdown > that showed dozens and dozens of repeating IDE messages. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 17, 2021 3:28:12 AM matthias rebbe via use-livecode > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > i am currently noticing a massive slow down of the LC 9.6.4 IDE menu. > Not > > right away after opening Livecode IDE, but after some time of usage. > > I never noticed that in 9.6.3. Clicking on an main menu entry takes then > > about 2 or 3 seconds until i can see the submenu > > > > But I am not sure if this is really only an LC problem or due to the > fact > > that i upgraded to Big Sur around the same time as LC 9.6.4 was released. > > > > Currently i only notice this slow down of the menu in 9.6.4 and i am not > > able to see this in 9.6.3. But maybe i am a little bit to impatient and > my > > testing is too short. > > > > In the activity monitor i cannot see anything unusual. Now large memory > > consumption of LC and no high CPU usage. > > > > After a restart of LC the IDE menu behaves normal, but some time later > it > > slows down. > > > > > > Is anyone else experiencing the same or a similar behavior? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Matthias > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From roland.huettmann at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 17:52:23 2021 From: roland.huettmann at gmail.com (R.H.) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 23:52:23 +0200 Subject: How to suppress the Modal Purge dialog? -- Name space conflict Message-ID: Hi everyone I have a need to programmatically open about 200 stacks, do something, and the close them. In this case, for documentation reasons, I take a screenshot from every stack, every card, and every substack and their cards to export it. My problem is that there are number of stacks that have the same stack name (apart from a different file name), and loading them into memory (opening them) sometimes creates a naming conflict if a stack with the same name already is loaded -- and these are library stacks, etc. The known modal dialog appears to allow to purge such stack. This dialog seems to appear before even any error message could be intercepted. Can this purging be automated and the dialog be suppressed? I found no way (using the "try" construct, locking messages, etc.) to suppress this dialog and just do the purge from script. I assume that it could eventually be done messing with the strack in the IDE that generates the dialog. But I do not really want to do this for principle reasons. Another way is to make sure that there are never same stack names (which are only known after opening), but that is almost impossible to control and might break certain stack relationships -- and I am not just talking about my own stacks, but also stacks from third parties, and opens sources. Of course, I can make sure that there are is never more than the main stack in memory before opening any other stack -- except the IDE stacks. But in my special case this is not a good solution as the app relies heavily on a number of open stacks. At least, I am still trying to find a better solution. Maybe a good feature for future would be to support name spaces as in other development environments so that such naming conflicts may be avoided. Stacks and other resources could then share a name space, and then there is only the need to have unique names within such name space. Some people (including myself) already mimic this using prefixes to a name. But that is just a starting point and difficult to control. The concept of name spaces goes beyond that. Any ideas ? ))) have fun... Roland From tom at makeshyft.com Sun Sep 19 18:12:58 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:12:58 -0400 Subject: How to suppress the Modal Purge dialog? -- Name space conflict In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm...first thing that comes to mind. Can you check if the same name is already open and then rename the existing one before you try to open the second one? On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 5:54 PM R.H. via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi everyone > > I have a need to programmatically open about 200 stacks, do something, and > the close them. In this case, for documentation reasons, I take a > screenshot from every stack, every card, and every substack and their cards > to export it. > > My problem is that there are number of stacks that have the same stack name > (apart from a different file name), and loading them into memory (opening > them) sometimes creates a naming conflict if a stack with the same name > already is loaded -- and these are library stacks, etc. > > The known modal dialog appears to allow to purge such stack. This dialog > seems to appear before even any error message could be intercepted. > > Can this purging be automated and the dialog be suppressed? I found no way > (using the "try" construct, locking messages, etc.) to suppress this dialog > and just do the purge from script. > > I assume that it could eventually be done messing with the strack in the > IDE that generates the dialog. But I do not really want to do this for > principle reasons. > > Another way is to make sure that there are never same stack names (which > are only known after opening), but that is almost impossible to control and > might break certain stack relationships -- and I am not just talking about > my own stacks, but also stacks from third parties, and opens sources. > > Of course, I can make sure that there are is never more than the main stack > in memory before opening any other stack -- except the IDE stacks. But in > my special case this is not a good solution as the app relies heavily on a > number of open stacks. At least, I am still trying to find a better > solution. > > Maybe a good feature for future would be to support name spaces as in other > development environments so that such naming conflicts may be avoided. > Stacks and other resources could then share a name space, and then there is > only the need to have unique names within such name space. Some people > (including myself) already mimic this using prefixes to a name. But that is > just a starting point and difficult to control. The concept of name spaces > goes beyond that. > > Any ideas ? ))) > > have fun... > Roland > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From tom at makeshyft.com Sun Sep 19 18:39:41 2021 From: tom at makeshyft.com (Tom Glod) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:39:41 -0400 Subject: How to suppress the Modal Purge dialog? -- Name space conflict In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, right you mentioned that in one of the paragraphs..... but there is a way to get all the stacks opened....... but making sure that before a stack is processed, the name is returned to what it must be to be exported and work. Just making the assumption that you can only process one open stack at a time. Or are the stacks all running code outside of being "opened"? On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 6:12 PM Tom Glod wrote: > Hmmm...first thing that comes to mind. > > Can you check if the same name is already open and then rename the > existing one before you try to open the second one? > > > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 5:54 PM R.H. via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Hi everyone >> >> I have a need to programmatically open about 200 stacks, do something, and >> the close them. In this case, for documentation reasons, I take a >> screenshot from every stack, every card, and every substack and their >> cards >> to export it. >> >> My problem is that there are number of stacks that have the same stack >> name >> (apart from a different file name), and loading them into memory (opening >> them) sometimes creates a naming conflict if a stack with the same name >> already is loaded -- and these are library stacks, etc. >> >> The known modal dialog appears to allow to purge such stack. This dialog >> seems to appear before even any error message could be intercepted. >> >> Can this purging be automated and the dialog be suppressed? I found no way >> (using the "try" construct, locking messages, etc.) to suppress this >> dialog >> and just do the purge from script. >> >> I assume that it could eventually be done messing with the strack in the >> IDE that generates the dialog. But I do not really want to do this for >> principle reasons. >> >> Another way is to make sure that there are never same stack names (which >> are only known after opening), but that is almost impossible to control >> and >> might break certain stack relationships -- and I am not just talking about >> my own stacks, but also stacks from third parties, and opens sources. >> >> Of course, I can make sure that there are is never more than the main >> stack >> in memory before opening any other stack -- except the IDE stacks. But in >> my special case this is not a good solution as the app relies heavily on a >> number of open stacks. At least, I am still trying to find a better >> solution. >> >> Maybe a good feature for future would be to support name spaces as in >> other >> development environments so that such naming conflicts may be avoided. >> Stacks and other resources could then share a name space, and then there >> is >> only the need to have unique names within such name space. Some people >> (including myself) already mimic this using prefixes to a name. But that >> is >> just a starting point and difficult to control. The concept of name spaces >> goes beyond that. >> >> Any ideas ? ))) >> >> have fun... >> Roland >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > > > -- > Tom Glod > Founder & Developer > MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) > Mobile:647.562.9411 > -- Tom Glod Founder & Developer MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com) Mobile:647.562.9411 From curry at pair.com Mon Sep 20 06:25:39 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 06:25:39 -0400 Subject: How to suppress the Modal Purge dialog? -- Name space conflict In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43f3ad03-f766-92d1-6b84-98d827a3ee5a@pair.com> Roland: > there are number of stacks that have the same stack name 1. Use "delete stack" to remove one from memory before loading another. Do it carefully; this is a powerful command! See the dictionary. > I am not just talking about my own stacks, > but also stacks from third parties, and opens sources 2. The first step after creating a new stack (before adding controls) is: give it an unusual name. This is done BEFORE the stack is ever saved. Otherwise we see "Untitled" stacks floating around. I'm sure Roland knows this; I'm speaking to the Community. We also have a "so many roads" ? meme and fan club, and just as with real highways, yes there are infinitely many paths. But very few efficient ones to a destination! :) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From merakosp at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 07:18:00 2021 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis m) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:18:00 +0300 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: <17bfeee1120.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <4372ebfc-bf03-0bd6-f8e7-ef546d69d38f@hyperactivesw.com> <17bfeee1120.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Hello Jacque, Nice, I'll make sure this note is added to the docs at least. Ideally we'll fix it in the engine too, so as it throws an error if the 3rd param is empty. Now, you said you got the login dialog. What happened next, after you entered your test apple ID details? Did you get a dialog for the in-app purchase, where the price was listed, and you had to choose Buy or Cancel? Or did you get an error dialog? Also, where is the handler. for purchaseStateUpdate? Is it in the stack script? I think it has to be in the stack script Kind regards, Panos -- On Sun, 19 Sept 2021 at 19:41, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Even a note in the documentation would help. I spent two weeks trying to > figure out the problem. Was it my store setup? The iPhone? My script, > which > was based on the lesson example? Did I set up my store products wrong? > Just > where should I look? > > By the time I posted here I was a walking mass of frustration and my > husband knew to hide in a closet. > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 19, 2021 2:24:18 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode > wrote: > > > Jacqueline: > > > > > If the third param is omitted, the script compiles okay > > > but apparently aborts with no error message > > > and no information when the app runs on the device. > > > > Hey LC Team: This may be not merely a bug, > > but also a "bad habit" in coding practice. > > A habit that leads to multiple bugs. > > > > I've seen similar "aborts" that halt execution > > but otherwise fail without warning or info. > > > > The LCS equivalent would be a tendency > > to overuse "exit to top" in situations > > where a "return" or an error bailout > > would be more appropriate. > > > > Perhaps only intended as a temporary placeholder > > and forgotten, but either way, a better habit > > would reduce the number of future bugs/glitches > > that follow this pattern. Thanks.... > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Curry Kenworthy > > > > Custom Software Development > > "Better Methods, Better Results" > > LiveCode Training and Consulting > > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From iphonelagi at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 07:42:07 2021 From: iphonelagi at gmail.com (Lagi Pittas) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:42:07 +0100 Subject: Android SDK lesson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bernard, I did and it says not a valid Android SDK path - and yet B4A accepts it without any protestations. I have posted to the thread you were helping people at omn the forum. We have to get a definitive "no pain" way of installation as it seems there are different problems on different platforms. Lagi On Sun, 19 Sept 2021 at 10:33, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Lagi > > I'd suggest following the Lesson as the most straightforward route. Let us > know if that doesn't work. > > Regards, Bernard > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 8:17 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > > I will look for a thread by you and expect that it should be the latest > > unless you say otherwise - you didn't say if it works on the latest yet > > though - which version of indy should I use? > > > > Regards Lagi > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > -- KIndest Regards Lagi From bdrunrev at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 08:52:27 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 13:52:27 +0100 Subject: Android SDK lesson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My advice to LC Ltd was: since Android Studio incorporates its own JDK and LC Ltd's official advice is to install Android Studio, then the simplest path is to have the IDE rely on the paths of that bundled JDK to setup and configure the LC/Android interactions. On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 12:43 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hi Bernard, > > I did and it says not a valid Android SDK path - and yet B4A accepts it > without any protestations. > > I have posted to the thread you were helping people at omn the forum. > > We have to get a definitive "no pain" way of installation as it seems there > are different problems on different platforms. > > Lagi > > From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Mon Sep 20 12:17:14 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:17:14 -0500 Subject: IAP in App Store In-Reply-To: References: <4372ebfc-bf03-0bd6-f8e7-ef546d69d38f@hyperactivesw.com> <17bfeee1120.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <17c03ff4710.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Hi Panos, After the login dialog, which worked fine, I got no status response on the first attempt. I realized that I was asking for a nonexistent product (I'd changed the store products during my experiments) and when I asked for a now existing one it went through fine. I got the sandbox purchase dialog and canceled the first attempt, which worked and I got a "cancelled" status. Then I purchased it again and got the "paymentReceived" status. All the handlers are in the card script but that seems to be working okay given that I did receive the status for a successful transaction. But I'd have expected an "unknown sku" error on the first attempt. I could move everything to the stack script I suppose, but it's nice to have it all encapsulated on the card. In case anyone is interested, my husband has come out into view again. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 20, 2021 6:20:24 AM panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: > Hello Jacque, > > Nice, I'll make sure this note is added to the docs at least. Ideally we'll > fix it in the engine too, so as it throws an error if the 3rd param is > empty. > > Now, you said you got the login dialog. What happened next, after you > entered your test apple ID details? Did you get a dialog for the in-app > purchase, where the price was listed, and you had to choose Buy or Cancel? > Or did you get an error dialog? > > Also, where is the handler. for purchaseStateUpdate? Is it in the stack > script? I think it has to be in the stack script > > Kind regards, > Panos > -- > > On Sun, 19 Sept 2021 at 19:41, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Even a note in the documentation would help. I spent two weeks trying to >> figure out the problem. Was it my store setup? The iPhone? My script, >> which >> was based on the lesson example? Did I set up my store products wrong? >> Just >> where should I look? >> >> By the time I posted here I was a walking mass of frustration and my >> husband knew to hide in a closet. >> -- >> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >> On September 19, 2021 2:24:18 AM Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode >> wrote: >> >>> Jacqueline: >>> >>>> If the third param is omitted, the script compiles okay >>>> but apparently aborts with no error message >>>> and no information when the app runs on the device. >>> >>> Hey LC Team: This may be not merely a bug, >>> but also a "bad habit" in coding practice. >>> A habit that leads to multiple bugs. >>> >>> I've seen similar "aborts" that halt execution >>> but otherwise fail without warning or info. >>> >>> The LCS equivalent would be a tendency >>> to overuse "exit to top" in situations >>> where a "return" or an error bailout >>> would be more appropriate. >>> >>> Perhaps only intended as a temporary placeholder >>> and forgotten, but either way, a better habit >>> would reduce the number of future bugs/glitches >>> that follow this pattern. Thanks.... >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Curry Kenworthy >>> >>> Custom Software Development >>> "Better Methods, Better Results" >>> LiveCode Training and Consulting >>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From toolbook at kestner.de Tue Sep 21 04:00:35 2021 From: toolbook at kestner.de (toolbook at kestner.de) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:00:35 +0200 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update Message-ID: <001e01d7aebe$c3e9d5e0$4bbd81a0$@kestner.de> Hello, beside the horrible IDE performance in general (windows 10, fast machine) I often have the issue, that the line number doesn't gets updated when scrolling the code in the IDE. Which is e.g. annoying when scrolling to a compilation error line. You have to click the mouse into the code, to get the line # updated I already have shut down almost all nice gimmicks in the IDE preferences, no project browser open, no messagebox open. Has anybody perhaps found any tweak to get the line # working again? Thanky Tiemo From sean at pidigital.co.uk Tue Sep 21 05:29:53 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Sean Cole (Pi)) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 10:29:53 +0100 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: <001e01d7aebe$c3e9d5e0$4bbd81a0$@kestner.de> References: <001e01d7aebe$c3e9d5e0$4bbd81a0$@kestner.de> Message-ID: Hi Tiemo, This is an issue dating all the way back to LC9.0.0. It has been raised several times in this list and on the bug report platform. Other issues surrounding it have been 'fixed' but this one seems elusive. One thread mentioned someone was working on an alternative script editor but it is not ready for the masses. I was recommended by Trevor DeVore to use Levure and have my whole app using script-only stacks. That way I could use Atom to open and work on scripts. Not an option for me as my stack is so huuuge that there is no easy way (or even a practical long way) to convert it all over to Script-Only. Following the thread of bugs around this, I've ended up at Bug 23117 which I have added a new comment to regarding the script editor. Since this has been around since 9.0.0, I can't imagine it being repaired any time soon. Sean On Tue, 21 Sept 2021 at 09:00, Tiemo via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hello, > > > > beside the horrible IDE performance in general (windows 10, fast machine) I > often have the issue, that the line number doesn't gets updated when > scrolling the code in the IDE. Which is e.g. annoying when scrolling to a > compilation error line. You have to click the mouse into the code, to get > the line # updated > > > > I already have shut down almost all nice gimmicks in the IDE preferences, > no > project browser open, no messagebox open. > > > > Has anybody perhaps found any tweak to get the line # working again? > > > > Thanky > > > > Tiemo > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From toolbook at kestner.de Tue Sep 21 05:48:30 2021 From: toolbook at kestner.de (toolbook at kestner.de) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:48:30 +0200 Subject: AW: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: <001e01d7aebe$c3e9d5e0$4bbd81a0$@kestner.de> Message-ID: <004101d7aecd$d6ac8c40$8405a4c0$@kestner.de> Hi Sean, thanks for responding. Yes I have watched this issue also over the years, I just hoped anybody has found a workaround, which I have missed. But, how do you work with another external script editor? Do you constantly copy and paste your script between the external editor (for editing) and internal (for testing), or is there a way to tweak LC using another editor? How is your workflow? Add: A minute after my post, the line numbers of the same stack and same script get again updated for today. Up to tomorrow, where everything sticks again probably ? Thanks Tiemo -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: use-livecode Im Auftrag von Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. September 2021 11:30 An: How to use LiveCode Cc: Sean Cole (Pi) Betreff: Re: IDE line number doesn't update Hi Tiemo, This is an issue dating all the way back to LC9.0.0. It has been raised several times in this list and on the bug report platform. Other issues surrounding it have been 'fixed' but this one seems elusive. One thread mentioned someone was working on an alternative script editor but it is not ready for the masses. I was recommended by Trevor DeVore to use Levure and have my whole app using script-only stacks. That way I could use Atom to open and work on scripts. Not an option for me as my stack is so huuuge that there is no easy way (or even a practical long way) to convert it all over to Script-Only. Following the thread of bugs around this, I've ended up at Bug 23117 which I have added a new comment to regarding the script editor. Since this has been around since 9.0.0, I can't imagine it being repaired any time soon. Sean On Tue, 21 Sept 2021 at 09:00, Tiemo via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Hello, > > > > beside the horrible IDE performance in general (windows 10, fast > machine) I often have the issue, that the line number doesn't gets > updated when scrolling the code in the IDE. Which is e.g. annoying > when scrolling to a compilation error line. You have to click the > mouse into the code, to get the line # updated > > > > I already have shut down almost all nice gimmicks in the IDE > preferences, no project browser open, no messagebox open. > > > > Has anybody perhaps found any tweak to get the line # working again? > > > > Thanky > > > > Tiemo > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Tue Sep 21 08:51:56 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 08:51:56 -0400 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: <001e01d7aebe$c3e9d5e0$4bbd81a0$@kestner.de> References: <001e01d7aebe$c3e9d5e0$4bbd81a0$@kestner.de> Message-ID: Tiemo: > beside the horrible IDE performance in general > the line number doesn't gets updated when scrolling the code > Has anybody perhaps found any tweak to get the line # working again? Only the same tactic you mentioned: > You have to click the mouse into the code, to get the line # updated So the user discipline: Look at code, scroll, click, look at line#. This feature keeps us on our toes. :) Sean: > This is an issue dating all the way back to LC9.0.0. > It has been raised several times > I've ended up at Bug 23117 > Is there a separate Bug reported on this? It is not the same as performance issues. (The SE has performance issues, and even line # performance limits I would think, but not updating is a separate bug.) I am still a bit sick with the tail end of COVID, so not up to searching or reporting bugs this week. Separate LC 9 SE Bugs we have, or had: - Performance and practical script size limit. - This one, line # updating. - Messed up handler indentation. - Disassociation of SE from script's object. - SE window disappears if too many tabs. - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. - Weird text hilites in SE. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com Tue Sep 21 17:17:07 2021 From: bobsneidar at iotecdigital.com (Bob Sneidar) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 21:17:07 +0000 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: <001e01d7aebe$c3e9d5e0$4bbd81a0$@kestner.de> References: <001e01d7aebe$c3e9d5e0$4bbd81a0$@kestner.de> Message-ID: BTW I get this on the Mac as well. Not sure what causes it. Some have said having the message box open may caause issues? Just going by memory though. Makes sense that there may be some interaction between the SE and the variable watcher pane. Bob S > On Sep 21, 2021, at 01:00 , Tiemo via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello, > > > > beside the horrible IDE performance in general (windows 10, fast machine) I > often have the issue, that the line number doesn't gets updated when > scrolling the code in the IDE. Which is e.g. annoying when scrolling to a > compilation error line. You have to click the mouse into the code, to get > the line # updated > > > > I already have shut down almost all nice gimmicks in the IDE preferences, no > project browser open, no messagebox open. > > > > Has anybody perhaps found any tweak to get the line # working again? > > > > Thanky > > > > Tiemo > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Wed Sep 22 09:08:53 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:08:53 -0400 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Me: > Separate LC 9 SE Bugs we have, or had: "- Performance and practical script size limit. - This one, line # updating. - Messed up handler indentation. - Disassociation of SE from script's object. - SE window disappears if too many tabs. - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. - Weird text hilites in SE." ... Also more SE bugs: - Messed up drags - Clipboard affected by SE editing - Invisible menus in stacks while SE open - Uncontrollable scrolling - Null filter needed when pasting - Certain errors do not trigger debugging - (Unable to save changes due to above Disassociation) - (Hard to set breakpoints due to above line # updating) - SE sometimes doesn't notice a copy or paste keystroke - "Find in>Docs" will not be noticed by newbies - Sometimes either "on" or "end" gets clipped/disappears - (and there are more; this is a few) All from memory, haven't rechecked them. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From klaus at major-k.de Wed Sep 22 09:45:16 2021 From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:45:16 +0200 Subject: Starter Plan runtimes Message-ID: Hi all, saw this on the LC website. > Starter Plan > ... > Permanent Standalone(s) > No. Standalone applications built with LiveCode Starter Plan > will expire if your subscription lapses. was I dreaming when I read on the forum, that this is NOT be the case anymore? Best Klaus -- Klaus Major https://www.major-k.de https://www.major-k.de/bass klaus at major-k.de From craig at starfirelighting.com Wed Sep 22 09:49:14 2021 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:49:14 -0400 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am on a Mac. Ever since the red dot issue was resolved a few versions ago I have seen none of these issues. I go back and forth from a handful of stacks to the SE without anything noticeable popping up to bother me. My longest single script anywhere is about 2000 lines. Craig > On Sep 22, 2021, at 9:08 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > Me: > > > Separate LC 9 SE Bugs we have, or had: > > "- Performance and practical script size limit. > - This one, line # updating. > - Messed up handler indentation. > - Disassociation of SE from script's object. > - SE window disappears if too many tabs. > - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) > - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. > - Weird text hilites in SE." > > ... Also more SE bugs: > > - Messed up drags > - Clipboard affected by SE editing > - Invisible menus in stacks while SE open > - Uncontrollable scrolling > - Null filter needed when pasting > - Certain errors do not trigger debugging > - (Unable to save changes due to above Disassociation) > - (Hard to set breakpoints due to above line # updating) > - SE sometimes doesn't notice a copy or paste keystroke > - "Find in>Docs" will not be noticed by newbies > - Sometimes either "on" or "end" gets clipped/disappears > - (and there are more; this is a few) > > All from memory, haven't rechecked them. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Wed Sep 22 10:18:18 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 10:18:18 -0400 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94393f68-581d-9855-ce75-4e9717622fe2@pair.com> Craig: > I am on a Mac. Ever since the red dot issue was resolved > a few versions ago I have seen none of these issues. Not seeing and not having are two different things. :) It may be conflating topics; note the wide range of bugs that I just listed. Incredible variety. Off the top of my head. Some of these I specifically saw first on MAC OS, not Windows. Some from Mac-only LC users. Not a platform-specific bug list. Unrechecked, so a handful of these may have been fixed or improved. But absolutely not all; I've seen some of them lately, and my eyes have witnessed conversation about them too. Just FYI; having said that, very glad it's been smooth coding for you! > My longest single script anywhere is about 2000 lines Great idea wherever possible; shorter code has multiple advantages. (Hope the quick list helps with any bug efforts. I'm sicker again; probably my last post this week.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 22 10:28:15 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:15 +0100 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you logged these on the quality site? I didn?t see them when doing my research. Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 22 Sep 2021, at 14:08, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > ? > Me: > > > Separate LC 9 SE Bugs we have, or had: > > "- Performance and practical script size limit. > - This one, line # updating. > - Messed up handler indentation. > - Disassociation of SE from script's object. > - SE window disappears if too many tabs. > - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) > - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. > - Weird text hilites in SE." > > ... Also more SE bugs: > > - Messed up drags > - Clipboard affected by SE editing > - Invisible menus in stacks while SE open > - Uncontrollable scrolling > - Null filter needed when pasting > - Certain errors do not trigger debugging > - (Unable to save changes due to above Disassociation) > - (Hard to set breakpoints due to above line # updating) > - SE sometimes doesn't notice a copy or paste keystroke > - "Find in>Docs" will not be noticed by newbies > - Sometimes either "on" or "end" gets clipped/disappears > - (and there are more; this is a few) > > All from memory, haven't rechecked them. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Wed Sep 22 10:33:18 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 10:33:18 -0400 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sean: > Have you logged these on the quality site? > I didn?t see them when doing my research. Me: > Is there a separate Bug reported on this? > It is not the same as performance issues. > I am still a bit sick with the tail end of COVID, > so not up to searching or reporting bugs this week. > All from memory, haven't rechecked them. > (Hope the quick list helps with any bug efforts. > I'm sicker again; probably my last post this week.) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org Wed Sep 22 10:48:37 2021 From: prothero at earthlearningsolutions.org (William Prothero) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:48:37 -0700 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <532450D9-79AB-4AA8-8C84-6D9C45D9B4B3@earthlearningsolutions.org> Sean, Sending much hope for your good recovery.? Bill Prothero Sent from my iPad > On Sep 22, 2021, at 7:29 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Have you logged these on the quality site? I didn?t see them when doing my research. > > Sean Cole > Pi Digital Productions Ltd > > eMail Ts & Cs > > >> On 22 Sep 2021, at 14:08, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: >> >> ? >> Me: >> >>> Separate LC 9 SE Bugs we have, or had: >> >> "- Performance and practical script size limit. >> - This one, line # updating. >> - Messed up handler indentation. >> - Disassociation of SE from script's object. >> - SE window disappears if too many tabs. >> - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) >> - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. >> - Weird text hilites in SE." >> >> ... Also more SE bugs: >> >> - Messed up drags >> - Clipboard affected by SE editing >> - Invisible menus in stacks while SE open >> - Uncontrollable scrolling >> - Null filter needed when pasting >> - Certain errors do not trigger debugging >> - (Unable to save changes due to above Disassociation) >> - (Hard to set breakpoints due to above line # updating) >> - SE sometimes doesn't notice a copy or paste keystroke >> - "Find in>Docs" will not be noticed by newbies >> - Sometimes either "on" or "end" gets clipped/disappears >> - (and there are more; this is a few) >> >> All from memory, haven't rechecked them. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Curry Kenworthy >> >> Custom Software Development >> "Better Methods, Better Results" >> LiveCode Training and Consulting >> http://livecodeconsulting.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 22 13:48:43 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:48:43 +0100 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: <532450D9-79AB-4AA8-8C84-6D9C45D9B4B3@earthlearningsolutions.org> References: <532450D9-79AB-4AA8-8C84-6D9C45D9B4B3@earthlearningsolutions.org> Message-ID: Thanks Bill. But I think Curry was aiming that at me to read his previous loooong email and see all that stuff about his well being. Which is noted. I only took a cursory glance at his message as I was in the midst of client liaisons. Apologies for not taking more time. As you are incapacitated and I am concerned that you are without the strength to submit a report I will post a series of reports to the quality list and see which ones get bumped as duplicates of others. At least then we will know they have all been logged and put in the system. They can?t fix what hasn?t already been reported. And if it had been ?fixed? and now a regression, this too will be brought into the repair process. I won?t be able to do it right away. It is our anniversary and will be going away for a number and of days, so I?m getting things done before we do. Maybe someone else can beat me to it. Maybe the OP could grab the gauntlet and run with it :) All the best, y?all. Sean > On 22 Sep 2021, at 15:48, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote: > > ?Sean, > Sending much hope for your good recovery.? > Bill Prothero > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Sep 22, 2021, at 7:29 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: >> >> ?Have you logged these on the quality site? I didn?t see them when doing my research. >> >> Sean Cole >> Pi Digital Productions Ltd >> >> eMail Ts & Cs >> >> >>>> On 22 Sep 2021, at 14:08, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Me: >>> >>>> Separate LC 9 SE Bugs we have, or had: >>> >>> "- Performance and practical script size limit. >>> - This one, line # updating. >>> - Messed up handler indentation. >>> - Disassociation of SE from script's object. >>> - SE window disappears if too many tabs. >>> - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) >>> - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. >>> - Weird text hilites in SE." >>> >>> ... Also more SE bugs: >>> >>> - Messed up drags >>> - Clipboard affected by SE editing >>> - Invisible menus in stacks while SE open >>> - Uncontrollable scrolling >>> - Null filter needed when pasting >>> - Certain errors do not trigger debugging >>> - (Unable to save changes due to above Disassociation) >>> - (Hard to set breakpoints due to above line # updating) >>> - SE sometimes doesn't notice a copy or paste keystroke >>> - "Find in>Docs" will not be noticed by newbies >>> - Sometimes either "on" or "end" gets clipped/disappears >>> - (and there are more; this is a few) >>> >>> All from memory, haven't rechecked them. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Curry Kenworthy >>> >>> Custom Software Development >>> "Better Methods, Better Results" >>> LiveCode Training and Consulting >>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Wed Sep 22 14:02:40 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:02:40 +0200 Subject: Starter Plan runtimes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51B6E0D0-8D20-4A05-BF47-9DEBF631A9B3@m-r-d.de> Seems so, in the forums Kevin stated that Livecode Ltd. changed the licensing of student plan. That license now includes permanent standalones. > Am 22.09.2021 um 15:45 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode : > > Hi all, > > saw this on the LC website. > >> Starter Plan >> ... >> Permanent Standalone(s) >> No. Standalone applications built with LiveCode Starter Plan >> will expire if your subscription lapses. > > was I dreaming when I read on the forum, that this is NOT be the case anymore? > > > Best > > Klaus > -- > Klaus Major > https://www.major-k.de > https://www.major-k.de/bass > klaus at major-k.de > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From klaus at major-k.de Wed Sep 22 14:06:21 2021 From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:06:21 +0200 Subject: Starter Plan runtimes In-Reply-To: <51B6E0D0-8D20-4A05-BF47-9DEBF631A9B3@m-r-d.de> References: <51B6E0D0-8D20-4A05-BF47-9DEBF631A9B3@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Hi Matthias, > Am 22.09.2021 um 20:02 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode : > > Seems so, > in the forums Kevin stated that Livecode Ltd. changed the licensing of student plan. yes, in the now deleted 10 page thread. > That license now includes permanent standalones. Then the mothership should DEFINITIVELY change the approriate webpage asap! >> Am 22.09.2021 um 15:45 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode : >> ... >>> Starter Plan >>> ... >>> Permanent Standalone(s) >>> No. Standalone applications built with LiveCode Starter Plan >>> will expire if your subscription lapses. >> was I dreaming when I read on the forum, that this is NOT be the case anymore? Best Klaus -- Klaus Major https://www.major-k.de https://www.major-k.de/bass klaus at major-k.de From klaus at major-k.de Wed Sep 22 14:08:23 2021 From: klaus at major-k.de (Klaus major-k) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:08:23 +0200 Subject: Starter Plan runtimes In-Reply-To: References: <51B6E0D0-8D20-4A05-BF47-9DEBF631A9B3@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <0A951F85-D3DB-4E05-83EC-44AB8B5D1F65@major-k.de> Ooops, sorry, my bad, I mixed the "Starter Plan" with the "Student Plan". > Am 22.09.2021 um 20:06 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode : > Hi Matthias, >> Am 22.09.2021 um 20:02 schrieb matthias rebbe via use-livecode : >> Seems so, >> in the forums Kevin stated that Livecode Ltd. changed the licensing of student plan. > yes, in the now deleted 10 page thread. >> That license now includes permanent standalones. > Then the mothership should DEFINITIVELY change the approriate webpage asap! >>> Am 22.09.2021 um 15:45 schrieb Klaus major-k via use-livecode : >>> ... >>>> Starter Plan >>>> ... >>>> Permanent Standalone(s) >>>> No. Standalone applications built with LiveCode Starter Plan >>>> will expire if your subscription lapses. >>> was I dreaming when I read on the forum, that this is NOT be the case anymore? -- Klaus Major https://www.major-k.de https://www.major-k.de/bass klaus at major-k.de From curry at pair.com Wed Sep 22 14:13:01 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:13:01 -0400 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03b3e4c5-6d0c-c128-f342-96b7d2d4c900@pair.com> Sean: > I think Curry was aiming that at me to read his previous loooong > email and see all that stuff about his well being Line Counts in my first email below - Re Tiemo's line # issue: 3 - Re Sean's Bug comment: 5 - Re Separate LC 9 SE Bugs: 9 - Re Me sick: 2 Wasted if you don't read things, but Me once again: > Is there a separate Bug reported on this? > It is not the same as performance issues. I asked you first. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ === Tiemo: > beside the horrible IDE performance in general > the line number doesn't gets updated when scrolling the code > Has anybody perhaps found any tweak to get the line # working again? Only the same tactic you mentioned: > You have to click the mouse into the code, to get the line # updated So the user discipline: Look at code, scroll, click, look at line#. This feature keeps us on our toes. :) Sean: > This is an issue dating all the way back to LC9.0.0. > It has been raised several times > I've ended up at Bug 23117 > Is there a separate Bug reported on this? It is not the same as performance issues. (The SE has performance issues, and even line # performance limits I would think, but not updating is a separate bug.) I am still a bit sick with the tail end of COVID, so not up to searching or reporting bugs this week. Separate LC 9 SE Bugs we have, or had: - Performance and practical script size limit. - This one, line # updating. - Messed up handler indentation. - Disassociation of SE from script's object. - SE window disappears if too many tabs. - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. - Weird text hilites in SE. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From ahsoftware at sonic.net Wed Sep 22 14:27:58 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:27:58 -0700 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: <532450D9-79AB-4AA8-8C84-6D9C45D9B4B3@earthlearningsolutions.org> Message-ID: On 9/22/21 10:48 AM, Pi Digital via use-livecode wrote: > It is our anniversary and will be going away for a number and of days Congrats on that. Have fun. My advice: don't bring a computer with you. Stay unplugged. Anyway, it's been a while since I've had to use the builtin script editor much, but for folks who are having problems with it, you might want to give an alternative a try: https://github.com/mwieder/glx2ScriptEditor -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From ahsoftware at sonic.net Wed Sep 22 14:29:27 2021 From: ahsoftware at sonic.net (Mark Wieder) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:29:27 -0700 Subject: LiveCode Community - anyone up for maintaining the community edition? In-Reply-To: References: <27C93BC1-2E27-487E-B87F-EAB6CAB80F5A@gmail.com> <4c8ecfb7-b20b-4031-afc4-4fc5beb2fab2@Spark> Message-ID: On 9/9/21 7:18 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote: > We (LiveCode Ltd.) cannot take any code changes you make to your project's version of the LiveCode source-code and use them in our commercial code as (by default) it will be GPLv3 licensed, and the copyright of that will be held by the person who authored the changes; just as you cannot change the license from GPLv3 nor copyright attribution (LiveCode Ltd.) - whether explicit or implicit - of any existing line of code in your project's fork of the LiveCode repositories, nor take any changes which appear from now onwards in any commercial edition to incorporate into your project. > > When we were running the open source project, we had in place a Contributor's License Agreement which meant that the copyright of any code authored by a contributor in any patch submitted to LiveCode Ltd was assigned to us. However, this only extended to contributions submitted through GitHub, where there was an appropriate immutable record of such submissions and it was universally clear what changes were being made. For obvious reasons, this no longer exists. > Mark- I've been mulling this over for a while now and I'm still unclear on the import of what you're saying here. (Disclaimer: this is probably tricky legal and ethical ground and I'm certainly no expert on licensing terms) Are you saying that submissions to bugzilla and pull requests to github that haven't yet been accepted into the main code are now orphaned? If someone (asking for a friend) takes a pull request that has not yet been acted on and *also* submits it to an open source fork, what does that do to its licensing status? Can an open source project cherrypick pull requests from the archived code and implement them? Is LiveCode Ltd not able to do that because of the licensing change? My head is spinning. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftware at gmail.com From sean at pidigital.co.uk Wed Sep 22 15:38:11 2021 From: sean at pidigital.co.uk (Pi Digital) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:38:11 +0100 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: <03b3e4c5-6d0c-c128-f342-96b7d2d4c900@pair.com> References: <03b3e4c5-6d0c-c128-f342-96b7d2d4c900@pair.com> Message-ID: <90936201-A9D8-46DD-B9A4-59E22C3A0675@pidigital.co.uk> Hi Probably best if you go back to bed, Curry. You?re too unwell to read my Full report (a whole stream of specific bug reports with duplicates and fixes and reprisals) or notice how Loooong the email was you wrote regarding the bugs you?d found. A bit more than two lines. Stop getting ratty with me (I don?t nderatand it?s probably just your illness making you that way) while I?m really ?trying? to be nice. I have to be nice or nasty people on here start getting upset and kick up a stink to have me kicked off. Please read as written, with a pleasant tone. I?ll show my workings when I have time. As Mark says, I should probably leave my Mac (and all other contact devices) at home. Sean Cole Pi Digital Productions Ltd eMail Ts & Cs > On 22 Sep 2021, at 19:13, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > ? > Sean: > > > I think Curry was aiming that at me to read his previous loooong > > email and see all that stuff about his well being > > Line Counts in my first email below > - Re Tiemo's line # issue: 3 > - Re Sean's Bug comment: 5 > - Re Separate LC 9 SE Bugs: 9 > - Re Me sick: 2 > > Wasted if you don't read things, but Me once again: > > > Is there a separate Bug reported on this? > > It is not the same as performance issues. > > I asked you first. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > === > > Tiemo: > > > beside the horrible IDE performance in general > > the line number doesn't gets updated when scrolling the code > > Has anybody perhaps found any tweak to get the line # working again? > > Only the same tactic you mentioned: > > > You have to click the mouse into the code, to get the line # updated > > So the user discipline: Look at code, scroll, click, look at line#. > This feature keeps us on our toes. :) > > Sean: > > > This is an issue dating all the way back to LC9.0.0. > > It has been raised several times > > I've ended up at Bug 23117 > > > > Is there a separate Bug reported on this? > It is not the same as performance issues. > > (The SE has performance issues, and even > line # performance limits I would think, > but not updating is a separate bug.) > > I am still a bit sick with the tail end of COVID, > so not up to searching or reporting bugs this week. > > Separate LC 9 SE Bugs we have, or had: > > - Performance and practical script size limit. > - This one, line # updating. > - Messed up handler indentation. > - Disassociation of SE from script's object. > - SE window disappears if too many tabs. > - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) > - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. > - Weird text hilites in SE. > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Wed Sep 22 15:56:53 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:56:53 -0400 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03dac975-ac0b-c31e-d78d-8df8adcf29a6@pair.com> Sean: > I will post a series of reports to the quality list > and see which ones get bumped as duplicates of others. No, absolutely DO NOT waste LC Team time with random info. Re-reporting bugs carelessly (after not reading) would only do harm. Many on that list had been reported and discussed for a long time. That was a RECAP list of SE Bugs we've seen including this one. For your benefit, to get you up to speed. Not a request. > They can?t fix what hasn?t already been reported. Yes, that's what I conveyed to you in the email you did not read. :) SE Line # not updating and SE Performance are separate, different bugs. Once more: Is there a QA report for THIS Line # not updating issue? SE Bugs Recap list again, just for FYI: - Performance and practical script size limit. - This one, line # updating. - Messed up handler indentation. - Disassociation of SE from script's object. - SE window disappears if too many tabs. - Excessive disk use (for HDD/antivirus) - SE confusion about last insertion point/scroll. - Weird text hilites in SE. - Messed up drags - Clipboard affected by SE editing - Invisible menus in stacks while SE open - Uncontrollable scrolling - Null filter needed when pasting - Certain errors do not trigger debugging - (Unable to save changes due to above Disassociation) - (Hard to set breakpoints due to above line # updating) - SE sometimes doesn't notice a copy or paste keystroke - "Find in>Docs" will not be noticed by newbies - Sometimes either "on" or "end" gets clipped/disappears - (and there are more; this is a few) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From curry at pair.com Wed Sep 22 16:17:25 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:17:25 -0400 Subject: IDE line number doesn't update In-Reply-To: <90936201-A9D8-46DD-B9A4-59E22C3A0675@pidigital.co.uk> References: <90936201-A9D8-46DD-B9A4-59E22C3A0675@pidigital.co.uk> Message-ID: <5a15109c-7a5c-973f-6cb4-2187d86ee19e@pair.com> Sean: > a whole stream of specific bug reports What a shame! I had just written a message warning that many or most had already been reported! (Some by myself. Others have been discussed here.) My list was a RECAP for your benefit. Re-reporting them would only waste time. > Stop getting ratty with me Not ratty, just a brief helpful FYI while sick. Easily misunderstood if unread or hastily skimmed. > I have to be nice or nasty people on here start getting upset > and kick up a stink to have me kicked off. If they do, I myself will intercede fervently AGAIN on your behalf. Very good having you here! But I think your vacation is calling. :) Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From bogdanoff at me.com Thu Sep 23 00:44:49 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:44:49 -0400 Subject: Strange script error - pass openStack Message-ID: In trying to debug a problem with my music program, at one point I got an error dialog: Message execution error: Error description: Object Name: Hint: stack "/Applications/LiveCode Business 9.6.1.app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/home.livecodescript? So, I tried stepping through an openStack handler I have, and sure enough, once I passed the ?pass openStack? I saw that same error in the Message box. I?ve just tried making a new stack that has: on openStack pass openStack end openStack with the red break on the line "pass openStack", and the same error showed in the Message box. I poked into the script of the stack home.livecodescript and see these lines if the short name of the owner of the target is not "Home" then pass openStack end if I add a line before that: put ?foo? After the dialog is closed the Message box shows: Message execution error: Error description: Chunk: no target found Question 1 ? should this be happening?me seeing a livecodescript error?and can it affect my openStack handler, or the total operation of my stack? Question 2 ? should I be passing openStack on from my project? I?ve been doing that since HyperCard days and never thought a second about it. LC 9.6.4 Peter Bogdanoff From curry at pair.com Thu Sep 23 08:31:42 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 08:31:42 -0400 Subject: Strange script error - pass openStack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter: > I?ve just tried making a new stack that has: > on openStack > pass openStack > end openStack 1. Make sure this openStack is in your first CARD's script. > I poked into the script of the stack home.livecodescript > and see these lines > if the short name of the owner of the target is not "Home" then > pass openStack > end if 2. You (or another open stack) may have done something unusual. I'm not 100% convinced you've found the problem yet. There are a few inconsistent details in your message, plus it seems that LC did not pinpoint the offending code line? 3. But the home.livecodescript code could be more robust. (Always ensure a target and owner exist before accessing properties.) You could QA report that as a possible IDE bug. Meanwhile, don't pass openStack and see if you still get an error! Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From craig at starfirelighting.com Thu Sep 23 09:20:42 2021 From: craig at starfirelighting.com (Craig Newman) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:20:42 -0400 Subject: Strange script error - pass openStack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi. You are getting the error message in the message box? If I make a new stack and place your handler in the card script, I will indeed get an error in the message box if I just invoke ?openStack? directly. Of course, if I ?send openStack to this card? all works fine. Placing a red dot should not be pertinent. Placing the handler in the stack script works as advertised. I guess I am not clear about what you are seeing. Craig > On Sep 23, 2021, at 8:31 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote: > > > Peter: > > > I?ve just tried making a new stack that has: > > > on openStack > > pass openStack > > end openStack > > 1. Make sure this openStack is in your first CARD's script. > > > I poked into the script of the stack home.livecodescript > > and see these lines > > > if the short name of the owner of the target is not "Home" then > > pass openStack > > end if > > 2. You (or another open stack) may have done something unusual. > I'm not 100% convinced you've found the problem yet. > There are a few inconsistent details in your message, > plus it seems that LC did not pinpoint the offending code line? > > 3. But the home.livecodescript code could be more robust. > (Always ensure a target and owner exist before accessing properties.) > You could QA report that as a possible IDE bug. > > Meanwhile, don't pass openStack and see if you still get an error! > > Best wishes, > > Curry Kenworthy > > Custom Software Development > "Better Methods, Better Results" > LiveCode Training and Consulting > http://livecodeconsulting.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From curry at pair.com Thu Sep 23 09:56:48 2021 From: curry at pair.com (Curry Kenworthy) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:56:48 -0400 Subject: Strange script error - pass openStack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <813bf38c-bb71-a217-a580-35851048ddda@pair.com> Craig: > I will indeed get an error in the message box > if I just invoke ?openStack? directly. So Peter, make sure whether this bug is your original issue, and not just a red herring from the debugging itself. Either way: > 3. But the home.livecodescript code could be more robust. > (Always ensure a target and owner exist before accessing properties.) > You could QA report that as a possible IDE bug. Best wishes, Curry Kenworthy Custom Software Development "Better Methods, Better Results" LiveCode Training and Consulting http://livecodeconsulting.com/ From panos.merakos at livecode.com Thu Sep 23 11:29:34 2021 From: panos.merakos at livecode.com (panagiotis merakos) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:29:34 +0300 Subject: [ANN] Release 9.6.5 RC-1 Message-ID: Dear list members, We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1. Getting the Release =================== You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via the automatic updater. Release Contents ================ LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1 comes with several changes, including: New Features - Android standalones can now be deployed as app bundles - The Android engine is now built using version 30 of the Android API - In-app purchases for Google Play Store now use v4 of the Google Billing Library Bug Fixes: - Fix browser widget on iOS not sending load events in response to user navigation - Fix library conflicts between maps and barcode widgets on Android - Improve speed of appending to large strings and encoding large arrays on Windows - Fix long engine exit time when many loaded fonts and objects/paragraphs are still in memory For the full list of all fixes, updates and enhancements please see the release notes: http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_6_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_6_5_rc_1.pdf Known issues ============ - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with Cinnamon window manager. - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS yet. Required Software ================= To build iOS apps with LiveCode you must have the appropriate versions of Xcode as follows: - macOS 10.13.4: Xcode 10.1 - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS 12.1 SDK - macOS 10.14.4: Xcode 11.3.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS 13.2 SDK - macOS 10.15.4: Xcode 12.4.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS 14.4 SDK - macOS 11.x. : Xcode 12.5.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS 14.5 SDK There is a full list of working LiveCode/macOS/Xcode combinations here: https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ Note: Whilst we endeavour to release updated versions of LiveCode supporting the latest Xcode/iOS SDKs as quickly as possible; we strongly recommend disabling automatic update of Xcode or downloading the specific version of Xcode required directly from the Apple developer portal and installing it separately. Important: From the start of April 2021, Apple is only accepting apps built using iOS14.x SDKs. This means that, if you wish to submit apps to the AppStore you will have to be running at least macOS 10.15 in order to be able to install the necessary version of Xcode. Feedback ======== Please report any bugs encountered on our quality center at http://quality.livecode.com/ We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 Have fun! The LiveCode Team -- From martyknappster at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 12:51:12 2021 From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:51:12 -0700 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version Message-ID: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> I just updated my iPhone to iOS 15 and now my LC built app won?t run (developer needs to update). Yes I should have checked that out before I updated. My app was running on the previous iOS fine and is built with the latest version of LC running on Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. I can?t seem to find the info on pairing LC with the proper version of Xcode. I?m kinda wondering if I?ll need to upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur but have resisted due to some older 32 bit apps that I use? Thanks for any help, Marty From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Thu Sep 23 13:00:26 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:00:26 -0500 Subject: [ANN] Release 9.6.5 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17c1399e810.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Fantastic! I knew you'd come through for us. You always do. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 23, 2021 10:32:12 AM panagiotis merakos via use-livecode wrote: > Dear list members, > > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1. > > > Getting the Release > =================== > You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via > the automatic updater. > > > Release Contents > ================ > LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1 comes with several changes, including: > > New Features > - Android standalones can now be deployed as app bundles > - The Android engine is now built using version 30 of the Android API > - In-app purchases for Google Play Store now use v4 of the Google Billing > Library > > Bug Fixes: > - Fix browser widget on iOS not sending load events in response to user > navigation > - Fix library conflicts between maps and barcode widgets on Android > - Improve speed of appending to large strings and encoding large arrays > on Windows > - Fix long engine exit time when many loaded fonts and objects/paragraphs > are still in memory > > > For the full list of all fixes, updates and enhancements please see the > release notes: > http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_6_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_6_5_rc_1.pdf > > > Known issues > ============ > - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with > Cinnamon window manager. > - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS > yet. > > > Required Software > ================= > To build iOS apps with LiveCode you must have the appropriate versions of > Xcode as follows: > > - macOS 10.13.4: Xcode 10.1 - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS 12.1 > SDK > - macOS 10.14.4: Xcode 11.3.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS > 13.2 SDK > - macOS 10.15.4: Xcode 12.4.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS > 14.4 SDK > - macOS 11.x. : Xcode 12.5.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS > 14.5 SDK > > There is a full list of working LiveCode/macOS/Xcode combinations here: > https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ > > Note: Whilst we endeavour to release updated versions of LiveCode > supporting the latest Xcode/iOS SDKs as quickly as possible; we strongly > recommend disabling automatic update of Xcode or downloading the specific > version of Xcode required directly from the Apple developer portal and > installing it separately. > > Important: From the start of April 2021, Apple is only accepting apps built > using iOS14.x SDKs. This means that, if you wish to submit apps to the > AppStore you will have to be running at least macOS 10.15 in order to be > able to install the necessary version of Xcode. > > > Feedback > ======== > Please report any bugs encountered on our quality center at > http://quality.livecode.com/ > > We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at > http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 > > > Have fun! > The LiveCode Team > -- > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From jacque at hyperactivesw.com Thu Sep 23 13:04:07 2021 From: jacque at hyperactivesw.com (J. Landman Gay) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:04:07 -0500 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> References: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17c139d4758.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> I'm in the same boat. We have an app in the App Store, built with Mojave, do we know if that's affected? Or were you just doing local testing? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 23, 2021 11:53:32 AM Marty Knapp via use-livecode wrote: > I just updated my iPhone to iOS 15 and now my LC built app won?t run > (developer needs to update). Yes I should have checked that out before I > updated. My app was running on the previous iOS fine and is built with the > latest version of LC running on Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. I can?t seem to > find the info on pairing LC with the proper version of Xcode. I?m kinda > wondering if I?ll need to upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur but have resisted > due to some older 32 bit apps that I use? > > Thanks for any help, > Marty > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From martyknappster at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 13:07:44 2021 From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:07:44 -0700 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <17c139d4758.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> <17c139d4758.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: <69235C05-D228-494D-9AC0-C4465CD6A95A@gmail.com> Just local testing. I?m using LC 9.6.3, Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. Worked fine for iOS 14.8 Marty > On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:04 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote: > > I'm in the same boat. We have an app in the App Store, built with Mojave, do we know if that's affected? Or were you just doing local testing? > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > On September 23, 2021 11:53:32 AM Marty Knapp via use-livecode wrote: > >> I just updated my iPhone to iOS 15 and now my LC built app won?t run (developer needs to update). Yes I should have checked that out before I updated. My app was running on the previous iOS fine and is built with the latest version of LC running on Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. I can?t seem to find the info on pairing LC with the proper version of Xcode. I?m kinda wondering if I?ll need to upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur but have resisted due to some older 32 bit apps that I use? >> >> Thanks for any help, >> Marty From merakosp at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 13:35:28 2021 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis m) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 20:35:28 +0300 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <69235C05-D228-494D-9AC0-C4465CD6A95A@gmail.com> References: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> <17c139d4758.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <69235C05-D228-494D-9AC0-C4465CD6A95A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Marty, Does that happen with every app you build, even with the simplest one (e.g. just a card and a button? In any case, could you file a bug report and attach your sample stack, so that we investigate and fix it asap. Kind regards, Panos On Thu, 23 Sep 2021, 20:08 Marty Knapp via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Just local testing. I?m using LC 9.6.3, Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. Worked > fine for iOS 14.8 > > Marty > > > On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:04 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > I'm in the same boat. We have an app in the App Store, built with > Mojave, do we know if that's affected? Or were you just doing local testing? > > -- > > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com > > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com > > On September 23, 2021 11:53:32 AM Marty Knapp via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > >> I just updated my iPhone to iOS 15 and now my LC built app won?t run > (developer needs to update). Yes I should have checked that out before I > updated. My app was running on the previous iOS fine and is built with the > latest version of LC running on Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. I can?t seem to > find the info on pairing LC with the proper version of Xcode. I?m kinda > wondering if I?ll need to upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur but have resisted > due to some older 32 bit apps that I use? > >> > >> Thanks for any help, > >> Marty > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From martyknappster at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 13:44:19 2021 From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:44:19 -0700 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: References: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> <17c139d4758.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <69235C05-D228-494D-9AC0-C4465CD6A95A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D92ACC9-C862-496C-8D38-B05120A714FA@gmail.com> I?ve just tried with one app, which is quite simple. It?s my customer database which just pulls in data from a text file. I exploring this further, it looks like I?ll need the latest version of Xcode which requires Big Sur. So I?m just installing Big Sur on a partition and will set things up to build on that. I will report back once I?ve had a chance to do that. Marty > On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:35 AM, panagiotis m via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello Marty, > > Does that happen with every app you build, even with the simplest one (e.g. > just a card and a button? > > In any case, could you file a bug report and attach your sample stack, so > that we investigate and fix it asap. > > Kind regards, > Panos > > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2021, 20:08 Marty Knapp via use-livecode, < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Just local testing. I?m using LC 9.6.3, Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. Worked >> fine for iOS 14.8 >> >> Marty >> >>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:04 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>> I'm in the same boat. We have an app in the App Store, built with >> Mojave, do we know if that's affected? Or were you just doing local testing? >>> -- >>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >>> On September 23, 2021 11:53:32 AM Marty Knapp via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I just updated my iPhone to iOS 15 and now my LC built app won?t run >> (developer needs to update). Yes I should have checked that out before I >> updated. My app was running on the previous iOS fine and is built with the >> latest version of LC running on Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. I can?t seem to >> find the info on pairing LC with the proper version of Xcode. I?m kinda >> wondering if I?ll need to upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur but have resisted >> due to some older 32 bit apps that I use? >>>> >>>> Thanks for any help, >>>> Marty >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Thu Sep 23 13:47:35 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:47:35 +0200 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: References: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> <17c139d4758.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <69235C05-D228-494D-9AC0-C4465CD6A95A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <63BEBDBD-DA83-4E5F-8ECD-66CEE884B446@m-r-d.de> i had here a similar problem. My test app created with LC 9.6.4 worked until i upgraded to iOS 15. Pressing the icon to start it, opened the app and then it crashed back to iOS Home Screen. Btw. push notifications for that app still worked. I got it working again by creating the standalone again and then deploying it to the phone. > Am 23.09.2021 um 19:35 schrieb panagiotis m via use-livecode : > > Hello Marty, > > Does that happen with every app you build, even with the simplest one (e.g. > just a card and a button? > > In any case, could you file a bug report and attach your sample stack, so > that we investigate and fix it asap. > > Kind regards, > Panos > > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2021, 20:08 Marty Knapp via use-livecode, < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Just local testing. I?m using LC 9.6.3, Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. Worked >> fine for iOS 14.8 >> >> Marty >> >>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:04 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>> I'm in the same boat. We have an app in the App Store, built with >> Mojave, do we know if that's affected? Or were you just doing local testing? >>> -- >>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >>> On September 23, 2021 11:53:32 AM Marty Knapp via use-livecode < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I just updated my iPhone to iOS 15 and now my LC built app won?t run >> (developer needs to update). Yes I should have checked that out before I >> updated. My app was running on the previous iOS fine and is built with the >> latest version of LC running on Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. I can?t seem to >> find the info on pairing LC with the proper version of Xcode. I?m kinda >> wondering if I?ll need to upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur but have resisted >> due to some older 32 bit apps that I use? >>>> >>>> Thanks for any help, >>>> Marty >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Thu Sep 23 13:49:12 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:49:12 +0200 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <63BEBDBD-DA83-4E5F-8ECD-66CEE884B446@m-r-d.de> References: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> <17c139d4758.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <69235C05-D228-494D-9AC0-C4465CD6A95A@gmail.com> <63BEBDBD-DA83-4E5F-8ECD-66CEE884B446@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <16AB788C-4B87-4DBE-B55E-D8AB29F56FFF@m-r-d.de> What i forgot to mention. I am on Big Sur with XCode 12.5. > Am 23.09.2021 um 19:47 schrieb matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de: > > i had here a similar problem. My test app created with LC 9.6.4 worked until i upgraded to iOS 15. > Pressing the icon to start it, opened the app and then it crashed back to iOS Home Screen. > Btw. push notifications for that app still worked. > > I got it working again by creating the standalone again and then deploying it to the phone. > > > >> Am 23.09.2021 um 19:35 schrieb panagiotis m via use-livecode : >> >> Hello Marty, >> >> Does that happen with every app you build, even with the simplest one (e.g. >> just a card and a button? >> >> In any case, could you file a bug report and attach your sample stack, so >> that we investigate and fix it asap. >> >> Kind regards, >> Panos >> >> >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021, 20:08 Marty Knapp via use-livecode, < >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >> >>> Just local testing. I?m using LC 9.6.3, Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. Worked >>> fine for iOS 14.8 >>> >>> Marty >>> >>>> On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:04 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm in the same boat. We have an app in the App Store, built with >>> Mojave, do we know if that's affected? Or were you just doing local testing? >>>> -- >>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com >>>> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com >>>> On September 23, 2021 11:53:32 AM Marty Knapp via use-livecode < >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I just updated my iPhone to iOS 15 and now my LC built app won?t run >>> (developer needs to update). Yes I should have checked that out before I >>> updated. My app was running on the previous iOS fine and is built with the >>> latest version of LC running on Mojave and Xcode 11.3.1. I can?t seem to >>> find the info on pairing LC with the proper version of Xcode. I?m kinda >>> wondering if I?ll need to upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur but have resisted >>> due to some older 32 bit apps that I use? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any help, >>>>> Marty >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >>> subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From brahma at hindu.org Thu Sep 23 14:01:15 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:01:15 +0000 Subject: [ANN] Release 9.6.5 RC-1 In-Reply-To: <17c1399e810.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> References: <17c1399e810.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Where do get Android 11(30) ? On 9/23/21, 7:01 AM, "use-livecode" wrote: Fantastic! I knew you'd come through for us. You always do. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 23, 2021 10:32:12 AM panagiotis merakos via use-livecode > wrote: > Dear list members, > > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1. > > > Getting the Release > =================== > You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or via > the automatic updater. > > > Release Contents > ================ > LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1 comes with several changes, including: > > New Features > - Android standalones can now be deployed as app bundles > - The Android engine is now built using version 30 of the Android API > - In-app purchases for Google Play Store now use v4 of the Google Billing > Library > > Bug Fixes: > - Fix browser widget on iOS not sending load events in response to user > navigation > - Fix library conflicts between maps and barcode widgets on Android > - Improve speed of appending to large strings and encoding large arrays > on Windows > - Fix long engine exit time when many loaded fonts and objects/paragraphs > are still in memory > > > For the full list of all fixes, updates and enhancements please see the > release notes: > http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_6_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_6_5_rc_1.pdf > > > Known issues > ============ > - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros with > Cinnamon window manager. > - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 bit LTS > yet. > > > Required Software > ================= > To build iOS apps with LiveCode you must have the appropriate versions of > Xcode as follows: > > - macOS 10.13.4: Xcode 10.1 - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS 12.1 > SDK > - macOS 10.14.4: Xcode 11.3.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS > 13.2 SDK > - macOS 10.15.4: Xcode 12.4.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS > 14.4 SDK > - macOS 11.x. : Xcode 12.5.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS > 14.5 SDK > > There is a full list of working LiveCode/macOS/Xcode combinations here: > https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ > > Note: Whilst we endeavour to release updated versions of LiveCode > supporting the latest Xcode/iOS SDKs as quickly as possible; we strongly > recommend disabling automatic update of Xcode or downloading the specific > version of Xcode required directly from the Apple developer portal and > installing it separately. > > Important: From the start of April 2021, Apple is only accepting apps built > using iOS14.x SDKs. This means that, if you wish to submit apps to the > AppStore you will have to be running at least macOS 10.15 in order to be > able to install the necessary version of Xcode. > > > Feedback > ======== > Please report any bugs encountered on our quality center at > http://quality.livecode.com/ > > We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at > http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 > > > Have fun! > The LiveCode Team > -- > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From paul at smarttsoftware.co.uk Thu Sep 23 14:32:05 2021 From: paul at smarttsoftware.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 18:32:05 +0000 Subject: [ANN] Release 9.6.5 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: <17c1399e810.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: You need to run SDK manager from within Android Studio. Android 11 will be shown in the list to select under platforms. You also need to go into SDK Tools and update Android SDK Build tools, otherwise you will get errors on build. Hope that helps -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode On Behalf Of Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode Sent: 23 September 2021 19:01 To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami Subject: Re: [ANN] Release 9.6.5 RC-1 Where do get Android 11(30) ? On 9/23/21, 7:01 AM, "use-livecode" wrote: Fantastic! I knew you'd come through for us. You always do. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 23, 2021 10:32:12 AM panagiotis merakos via use-livecode > wrote: > Dear list members, > > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1. > > > Getting the Release > =================== > You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or > via the automatic updater. > > > Release Contents > ================ > LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1 comes with several changes, including: > > New Features > - Android standalones can now be deployed as app bundles > - The Android engine is now built using version 30 of the Android API > - In-app purchases for Google Play Store now use v4 of the Google > Billing Library > > Bug Fixes: > - Fix browser widget on iOS not sending load events in response to > user navigation > - Fix library conflicts between maps and barcode widgets on Android > - Improve speed of appending to large strings and encoding large > arrays on Windows > - Fix long engine exit time when many loaded fonts and > objects/paragraphs are still in memory > > > For the full list of all fixes, updates and enhancements please see > the release notes: > http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_6_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_6_5_rc_1. > pdf > > > Known issues > ============ > - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros > with Cinnamon window manager. > - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 > bit LTS yet. > > > Required Software > ================= > To build iOS apps with LiveCode you must have the appropriate versions > of Xcode as follows: > > - macOS 10.13.4: Xcode 10.1 - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS > 12.1 SDK > - macOS 10.14.4: Xcode 11.3.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the > iOS > 13.2 SDK > - macOS 10.15.4: Xcode 12.4.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the > iOS > 14.4 SDK > - macOS 11.x. : Xcode 12.5.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the > iOS > 14.5 SDK > > There is a full list of working LiveCode/macOS/Xcode combinations here: > https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ > > Note: Whilst we endeavour to release updated versions of LiveCode > supporting the latest Xcode/iOS SDKs as quickly as possible; we > strongly recommend disabling automatic update of Xcode or downloading > the specific version of Xcode required directly from the Apple > developer portal and installing it separately. > > Important: From the start of April 2021, Apple is only accepting apps > built using iOS14.x SDKs. This means that, if you wish to submit apps > to the AppStore you will have to be running at least macOS 10.15 in > order to be able to install the necessary version of Xcode. > > > Feedback > ======== > Please report any bugs encountered on our quality center at > http://quality.livecode.com/ > > We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at > http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 > > > Have fun! > The LiveCode Team > -- > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From merakosp at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 14:53:56 2021 From: merakosp at gmail.com (panagiotis m) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:53:56 +0300 Subject: [ANN] Release 9.6.5 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: <17c1399e810.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Hello all, See this blog post for more info on the tools you need to install: https://livecode.com/livecode-9-6-5-with-android-app-bundle-for-play-store/ Kind regards, Panos On Thu, 23 Sep 2021, 21:33 Paul Richards via use-livecode, < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > You need to run SDK manager from within Android Studio. > > Android 11 will be shown in the list to select under platforms. You also > need to go into SDK Tools and update Android SDK Build tools, otherwise you > will get errors on build. > > Hope that helps > > -----Original Message----- > From: use-livecode On Behalf Of > Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode > Sent: 23 September 2021 19:01 > To: How to use LiveCode > Cc: Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami > Subject: Re: [ANN] Release 9.6.5 RC-1 > > Where do get Android 11(30) ? > > On 9/23/21, 7:01 AM, "use-livecode" > wrote: > Fantastic! I knew you'd come through for us. You always do. > > -- > Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw.com jacque at hyperactivesw.com> > HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On September 23, 2021 > 10:32:12 AM panagiotis merakos via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> > wrote: > > > Dear list members, > > > > We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1. > > > > > > Getting the Release > > =================== > > You can get the release at https://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/ or > > via the automatic updater. > > > > > > Release Contents > > ================ > > LiveCode 9.6.5 RC-1 comes with several changes, including: > > > > New Features > > - Android standalones can now be deployed as app bundles > > - The Android engine is now built using version 30 of the Android API > > - In-app purchases for Google Play Store now use v4 of the Google > > Billing Library > > > > Bug Fixes: > > - Fix browser widget on iOS not sending load events in response to > > user navigation > > - Fix library conflicts between maps and barcode widgets on Android > > - Improve speed of appending to large strings and encoding large > > arrays on Windows > > - Fix long engine exit time when many loaded fonts and > > objects/paragraphs are still in memory > > > > > > For the full list of all fixes, updates and enhancements please see > > the release notes: > > http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/9_6_5/LiveCodeNotes-9_6_5_rc_1. > > pdf > > > > > > Known issues > > ============ > > - The Browser widget's native layer is not shown in some Linux distros > > with Cinnamon window manager. > > - The use of the Browser widget is not supported on Ubuntu 18.04 64 > > bit LTS yet. > > > > > > Required Software > > ================= > > To build iOS apps with LiveCode you must have the appropriate versions > > of Xcode as follows: > > > > - macOS 10.13.4: Xcode 10.1 - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the iOS > > 12.1 SDK > > - macOS 10.14.4: Xcode 11.3.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the > > iOS > > 13.2 SDK > > - macOS 10.15.4: Xcode 12.4.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the > > iOS > > 14.4 SDK > > - macOS 11.x. : Xcode 12.5.x - LiveCode builds iOS apps using the > > iOS > > 14.5 SDK > > > > There is a full list of working LiveCode/macOS/Xcode combinations here: > > https://livecode.com/docs/9-5-0/faq/faq/ > > > > Note: Whilst we endeavour to release updated versions of LiveCode > > supporting the latest Xcode/iOS SDKs as quickly as possible; we > > strongly recommend disabling automatic update of Xcode or downloading > > the specific version of Xcode required directly from the Apple > > developer portal and installing it separately. > > > > Important: From the start of April 2021, Apple is only accepting apps > > built using iOS14.x SDKs. This means that, if you wish to submit apps > > to the AppStore you will have to be running at least macOS 10.15 in > > order to be able to install the necessary version of Xcode. > > > > > > Feedback > > ======== > > Please report any bugs encountered on our quality center at > > http://quality.livecode.com/ > > > > We have a forum available for discussing LiveCode Builder at > > http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=93 > > > > > > Have fun! > > The LiveCode Team > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > use-livecode mailing list > > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Sep 23 14:59:06 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 14:59:06 -0400 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <16AB788C-4B87-4DBE-B55E-D8AB29F56FFF@m-r-d.de> References: <0E38402E-E60A-4366-A622-CA29F246B1FA@gmail.com> <17c139d4758.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> <69235C05-D228-494D-9AC0-C4465CD6A95A@gmail.com> <63BEBDBD-DA83-4E5F-8ECD-66CEE884B446@m-r-d.de> <16AB788C-4B87-4DBE-B55E-D8AB29F56FFF@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <008e01d7b0ad$1898b210$49ca1630$@net> I'm on Catalina with Xcode 12.4. My mobile device is too old to go to 15. Can anyone test the Catalina/Xcode 12.4/iOS 15 scenario? Thanks in advance! Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net From ludovic.thebault at laposte.net Thu Sep 23 15:09:13 2021 From: ludovic.thebault at laposte.net (Ludovic) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:09:13 +0200 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <008e01d7b0ad$1898b210$49ca1630$@net> References: <008e01d7b0ad$1898b210$49ca1630$@net> Message-ID: <2DFA32F3-D32B-4D8D-998B-191DEE32E8A8@laposte.net> Hello I noticed that on first opening my apps quit suddenly after the update. But they should work normally since. I had compiled them under bigsur Ludovic From brahma at hindu.org Thu Sep 23 22:55:05 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 02:55:05 +0000 Subject: [ANN] Release 9.6.5 RC-1 In-Reply-To: References: <17c1399e810.27a5.5e131b4e58299f54a9f0b9c05d4f07f9@hyperactivesw.com> Message-ID: Hello All I have the latest Android Studio.app installed. If I click on it, nothing happens. If we run Mobile Support?We are error: ?The chosen folder is not a valid Android SDK> ?? Hello all, See this blog post for more info on the tools you need to install: https://livecode.com/livecode-9-6-5-with-android-app-bundle-for-play-store/ Kind regards, Panos From benr_mc at cogapp.com Fri Sep 24 07:39:28 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 12:39:28 +0100 Subject: Building Windows standalones on Mac with LC 9.6.4 or later - apps not launching? Message-ID: Has anyone else encountered an issue building Windows standalones from LC 9.6.4 or 9.6.5 on Mac? What I'm seeing is that the process is suspiciously fast; but generates the expected files (.exe, the various dlls); and the .exe is the expected size, almost identical to what is produced under LC 9.6.3. However when this is moved to a Windows machine: - attempting to open in the Explorer simply nothing happens. - attempting to launch the standalone from command line is met with the message "Access is denied" (although security properties allow Read&Execute). Symptoms are exactly the same whether the standalone was built for x86 or x86-64. Same if built from either LC 9.6.4 and on LC 9.6.5 (rc 1). Before I report this in the LQCC and make myself look stupid - has anyone else built a Windows standalone from Mac on LC 9.6.4 or later, and did it work? TIA, Ben From lists at mangomultimedia.com Fri Sep 24 08:00:57 2021 From: lists at mangomultimedia.com (Trevor DeVore) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 07:00:57 -0500 Subject: Building Windows standalones on Mac with LC 9.6.4 or later - apps not launching? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 6:40 AM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Has anyone else encountered an issue building Windows standalones from LC > 9.6.4 or 9.6.5 on Mac? > > ? > > Before I report this in the LQCC and make myself look stupid - has anyone > else > built a Windows standalone from Mac on LC 9.6.4 or later, and did it work? I have successfully built Windows executables on macOS three times with 9.6.4. The only issue I experienced was with tsNet business. I have a specific version that is included when I package my app. The business version pre-9.6.4 would not launch under 9.6.4. Updating the copy I distribute with the version from 9.6.4 fixed the problem. -- Trevor DeVore ScreenSteps > From benr_mc at cogapp.com Fri Sep 24 08:16:11 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 13:16:11 +0100 Subject: Building Windows standalones on Mac with LC 9.6.4 or later - apps not launching? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2af0e08c-5fc4-4202-214c-b0e0fa0ab128@cogapp.com> Hmmm. Thanks Trevor. On 24/09/2021 13:00, Trevor DeVore via use-livecode wrote: > On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 6:40 AM Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> Has anyone else encountered an issue building Windows standalones from LC >> 9.6.4 or 9.6.5 on Mac? >> >> ? >> >> Before I report this in the LQCC and make myself look stupid - has anyone >> else >> built a Windows standalone from Mac on LC 9.6.4 or later, and did it work? > > > I have successfully built Windows executables on macOS three times with > 9.6.4. The only issue I experienced was with tsNet business. I have a > specific version that is included when I package my app. The business > version pre-9.6.4 would not launch under 9.6.4. Updating the copy I > distribute with the version from 9.6.4 fixed the problem. > From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Fri Sep 24 11:39:02 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:39:02 +0200 Subject: Building Windows standalones on Mac with LC 9.6.4 or later - apps not launching? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80577204-0ED3-4B6D-81B1-0D3B16D311A0@m-r-d.de> Ben, i tried here and created a Windows standalone (both 32 and 64 bit) on Big Sur with LC 9.6.4 and moved it to a Windows 10 machine. The created standalone could be opened without any problem on Windows. Do you have manual selected the inclusions in standalone settings or did you let LC IDE search for inclusions? Or maybe this is a Antivirus / Firewall problem? Maybe your standalone was blocked without any notification. Regards, Matthias > Am 24.09.2021 um 13:39 schrieb Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode : > > Has anyone else encountered an issue building Windows standalones from LC 9.6.4 or 9.6.5 on Mac? > > What I'm seeing is that the process is suspiciously fast; but generates the expected files (.exe, the various dlls); and the .exe is the expected size, almost identical to what is produced under LC 9.6.3. > > However when this is moved to a Windows machine: > > - attempting to open in the Explorer simply nothing happens. > > - attempting to launch the standalone from command line is met with the message "Access is denied" (although security properties allow Read&Execute). > > Symptoms are exactly the same whether the standalone was built for x86 or x86-64. Same if built from either LC 9.6.4 and on LC 9.6.5 (rc 1). > > Before I report this in the LQCC and make myself look stupid - has anyone else built a Windows standalone from Mac on LC 9.6.4 or later, and did it work? > > TIA, > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From benr_mc at cogapp.com Fri Sep 24 12:14:38 2021 From: benr_mc at cogapp.com (Ben Rubinstein) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:14:38 +0100 Subject: Building Windows standalones on Mac with LC 9.6.4 or later - apps not launching? In-Reply-To: <80577204-0ED3-4B6D-81B1-0D3B16D311A0@m-r-d.de> References: <80577204-0ED3-4B6D-81B1-0D3B16D311A0@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <8d7d5a29-9c44-395c-ef4a-eeebdd8c83e7@cogapp.com> Hi Matthias, Thanks for testing. After Trevor reported that it should work, I built an empty "hello world" stack which indeed launched OK. Since then I've been going round and round trying to cut down a copy of my app and simultaneously trying to build up the empty stack. It does seem to be do with inclusions, but I haven't quite got it figured yet - but I've just managed to get a working version of my actual app. Hurrah! Thanks for helping, Ben On 24/09/2021 16:39, matthias rebbe via use-livecode wrote: > Ben, > > i tried here and created a Windows standalone (both 32 and 64 bit) on Big Sur with LC 9.6.4 and moved it to a Windows 10 machine. > The created standalone could be opened without any problem on Windows. > > Do you have manual selected the inclusions in standalone settings or did you let LC IDE search for inclusions? > > > Or maybe this is a Antivirus / Firewall problem? Maybe your standalone was blocked without any notification. > > Regards, > Matthias > > >> Am 24.09.2021 um 13:39 schrieb Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode : >> >> Has anyone else encountered an issue building Windows standalones from LC 9.6.4 or 9.6.5 on Mac? >> >> What I'm seeing is that the process is suspiciously fast; but generates the expected files (.exe, the various dlls); and the .exe is the expected size, almost identical to what is produced under LC 9.6.3. >> >> However when this is moved to a Windows machine: >> >> - attempting to open in the Explorer simply nothing happens. >> >> - attempting to launch the standalone from command line is met with the message "Access is denied" (although security properties allow Read&Execute). >> >> Symptoms are exactly the same whether the standalone was built for x86 or x86-64. Same if built from either LC 9.6.4 and on LC 9.6.5 (rc 1). >> >> Before I report this in the LQCC and make myself look stupid - has anyone else built a Windows standalone from Mac on LC 9.6.4 or later, and did it work? >> >> TIA, >> >> Ben >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From martyknappster at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 18:19:01 2021 From: martyknappster at gmail.com (Marty Knapp) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 15:19:01 -0700 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <2DFA32F3-D32B-4D8D-998B-191DEE32E8A8@laposte.net> References: <008e01d7b0ad$1898b210$49ca1630$@net> <2DFA32F3-D32B-4D8D-998B-191DEE32E8A8@laposte.net> Message-ID: <98529F4F-43B1-4010-86A1-C9FB34F5F24D@gmail.com> Just a follow up here. I installed Big Sur on a separate volume and then downloaded the latest version of Xcode - 13.0. That doesn?t work. So I went into my Apple Developer account to get Xcode 12.5.1 which downloads as a .xip file - took forever to install from that (just so you know). So start the process and then go do something else - like a trip to the Bahamas. When you get back it might be done. Then set that version of Xcode in the LC prefs. Now I can build iOS apps for version 15. But now I can no longer use Photoshop CS3! It?s probably 10 years old so it had a good long run. Now to find a replacement as I don?t want to pay $20 a month for that... Marty > On Sep 23, 2021, at 12:09 PM, Ludovic via use-livecode wrote: > > Hello > > I noticed that on first opening my apps quit suddenly after the update. But they should work normally since. > I had compiled them under bigsur > > Ludovic > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From ludovic.thebault at laposte.net Fri Sep 24 23:56:28 2021 From: ludovic.thebault at laposte.net (Ludovic THEBAULT) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 05:56:28 +0200 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <98529F4F-43B1-4010-86A1-C9FB34F5F24D@gmail.com> References: <008e01d7b0ad$1898b210$49ca1630$@net> <2DFA32F3-D32B-4D8D-998B-191DEE32E8A8@laposte.net> <98529F4F-43B1-4010-86A1-C9FB34F5F24D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27B00202-699E-4A33-9DBC-2D2DB2BD93D7@laposte.net> > Le 25 sept. 2021 ? 00:19, Marty Knapp via use-livecode a ?crit : > > > But now I can no longer use Photoshop CS3! It?s probably 10 years old so it had a good long run. Now to find a replacement as I don?t want to pay $20 a month for that? > Hello ! Try Affinity Photo, really good software for only few bucks. > From stephen at barncard.com Sat Sep 25 00:18:04 2021 From: stephen at barncard.com (Stephen Barncard) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:18:04 -0700 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <27B00202-699E-4A33-9DBC-2D2DB2BD93D7@laposte.net> References: <008e01d7b0ad$1898b210$49ca1630$@net> <2DFA32F3-D32B-4D8D-998B-191DEE32E8A8@laposte.net> <98529F4F-43B1-4010-86A1-C9FB34F5F24D@gmail.com> <27B00202-699E-4A33-9DBC-2D2DB2BD93D7@laposte.net> Message-ID: *"Try Affinity Photo, really good software for only few bucks."* Yes, a very capable app for about $50 US. Different workflow than PS but well thought out. Their documentation and learning materials are well thought out. MAC AND PC, and a beautiful UI. "-- Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA - mixstream.org On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 8:57 PM Ludovic THEBAULT via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > > > > Le 25 sept. 2021 ? 00:19, Marty Knapp via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> a ?crit : > > > > > > But now I can no longer use Photoshop CS3! It?s probably 10 years old so > it had a good long run. Now to find a replacement as I don?t want to pay > $20 a month for that? > > > > Hello ! > > Try Affinity Photo, really good software for only few bucks. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From harrison at all-auctions.com Sat Sep 25 10:04:25 2021 From: harrison at all-auctions.com (Rick Harrison) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 10:04:25 -0400 Subject: iOS 15 - Xcode version In-Reply-To: <98529F4F-43B1-4010-86A1-C9FB34F5F24D@gmail.com> References: <008e01d7b0ad$1898b210$49ca1630$@net> <2DFA32F3-D32B-4D8D-998B-191DEE32E8A8@laposte.net> <98529F4F-43B1-4010-86A1-C9FB34F5F24D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4661C8A5-BA1E-44C2-A000-3B4E03808A7C@all-auctions.com> Hi Marty, There are a bunch of other programs that have a lot of the same features as photoshop. Graphic Converter 11 GIMP InkScape GravitDesigner Even Apple?s Photos program has come a long way. Good luck! Rick > On Sep 24, 2021, at 6:19 PM, Marty Knapp via use-livecode wrote: > > But now I can no longer use Photoshop CS3! It?s probably 10 years old so it had a good long run. Now to find a replacement as I don?t want to pay $20 a month for that... > > Marty From brahma at hindu.org Sat Sep 25 16:12:25 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 20:12:25 +0000 Subject: Where You See Do You See Your Android Apps? Message-ID: I am logged as app at hindu.org Where do discover SivaSiva Gurudeva Spiritual Workshop Hinduism Today ?? https://developer.android.com I can?t find any URLs that get me there SivaSiva? BR From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Sat Sep 25 16:22:18 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 22:22:18 +0200 Subject: Where You See Do You See Your Android Apps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B4617EF-20F7-4CCD-A246-3F18D5279B7D@m-r-d.de> BR, you mean your are logged in in your developer account at developer.google.com and want to see all your apps? If yes, you should see a "Launch Playstore" in the middle of the website directly after you've logged in. Click on that button/text and you will be asked to select the developer account. After selecting and confirming the developer account PlayConsole is launched and you should see all your apps. Regards, Matthias > I am logged as app at hindu.org > > Where do discover > > SivaSiva > Gurudeva > Spiritual Workshop > Hinduism Today > > ?? > > https://developer.android.com > > I can?t find any URLs that get me there SivaSiva? > > BR > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From brahma at hindu.org Sat Sep 25 21:33:04 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 01:33:04 +0000 Subject: Where You See Do You See Your Android Apps? In-Reply-To: <6B4617EF-20F7-4CCD-A246-3F18D5279B7D@m-r-d.de> References: <6B4617EF-20F7-4CCD-A246-3F18D5279B7D@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: Aloha Matthias, https://developer.android.com/ Wow! It is three buttons Download Android Studio | Launch Play Console | View Android courses It is the middle one of the three buttons. Take you to: https://play.google.com/console/u/0/developers/6275825903879277961/app-list Yes! That?s what we are looking for Thank you so much! Svasti Astu ? Be Well Brahmanathaswami Get SivaSiva.app ? It free! https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/sivasiva On 9/25/21, 10:23 AM, "use-livecode" wrote: BR, you mean your are logged in in your developer account at developer.google.com and want to see all your apps? If yes, you should see a "Launch Playstore" in the middle of the website directly after you've logged in. Click on that button/text and you will be asked to select the developer account. After selecting and confirming the developer account PlayConsole is launched and you should see all your apps. Regards, Matthias From toolbook at kestner.de Mon Sep 27 07:48:41 2021 From: toolbook at kestner.de (toolbook at kestner.de) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:48:41 +0200 Subject: AW: Warning in standalone builder In-Reply-To: <004c01d7a499$37f825c0$a7e87140$@kestner.de> References: <004c01d7a499$37f825c0$a7e87140$@kestner.de> Message-ID: <00b701d7b395$9e9a99b0$dbcfcd10$@kestner.de> I am trying again to ask, if anybody knows this warning (see below) or even has a solution? Thanks Tiemo -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: use-livecode Im Auftrag von Tiemo via use-livecode Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 12:07 An: LiveCode User Liste senden Cc: toolbook at kestner.de Betreff: Warning in standalone builder Hi there, I get a warning when building a standalone on Win: "Windows x86-32, external No externals.txt config file found for enhancedwin" I am using the enhancedwin dll and have put the externals.txt into the following folders: * \MyDevelopingFolder\Externals\ * C:\Users\myAccount\Documents\My LiveCode\Externals\ Where else is the LC standalone builder missing this externals.txt file? Thanks Tiemo _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Mon Sep 27 08:40:15 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:40:15 +0200 Subject: Warning in standalone builder In-Reply-To: <00b701d7b395$9e9a99b0$dbcfcd10$@kestner.de> References: <004c01d7a499$37f825c0$a7e87140$@kestner.de> <00b701d7b395$9e9a99b0$dbcfcd10$@kestner.de> Message-ID: <630CBEBA-515F-4C38-8DB8-191E935FF8BC@m-r-d.de> Tiemo, you have to move the external also to the runtime folder. Otherwise the standalone builder cannot build include/find the external. See this lesson here https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder Regards, Matthias > Am 27.09.2021 um 13:48 schrieb Tiemo via use-livecode >: > > I am trying again to ask, if anybody knows this warning (see below) or even > has a solution? > > Thanks > > Tiemo > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: use-livecode > Im Auftrag von > Tiemo via use-livecode > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 12:07 > An: LiveCode User Liste senden > > Cc: toolbook at kestner.de > Betreff: Warning in standalone builder > > Hi there, > > > > I get a warning when building a standalone on Win: "Windows x86-32, external > No externals.txt config file found for enhancedwin" > > I am using the enhancedwin dll and have put the externals.txt into the > following folders: > > * \MyDevelopingFolder\Externals\ > * C:\Users\myAccount\Documents\My LiveCode\Externals\ > > Where else is the LC standalone builder missing this externals.txt file? > > > > Thanks > > Tiemo > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From brahma at hindu.org Mon Sep 27 12:40:17 2021 From: brahma at hindu.org (Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:40:17 +0000 Subject: Got a New Crash in Livecode 9.6.5 (rc1) Message-ID: I Was work in the working in the stack, with Select Tool, control key down, selecting every objects of the stack: flds and buttons, when I selected the next field or button, there was a crash?and the follow message came up: This is the first time I got to terminal to open with: Last login: Mon Sep 27 06:19:27 on ttys000 brahmanathaswami at Sannyasins-MacBook-Pro-2 ~ % /Applications/LiveCode\ 9.6.5\ \(rc\ 1\).app/Contents/MacOS/LiveCode ; exit; Use of deprecated SAXv1 function setDocumentLocator [warn] kq_init: detected broken kqueue; not using.: Undefined error: 0 That new one! BR From bogdanoff at me.com Mon Sep 27 14:25:06 2021 From: bogdanoff at me.com (Peter Bogdanoff) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:25:06 -0400 Subject: Starter Plan offer - China users Message-ID: The starter plan for LiveCode is described: "On the Starter plan, if you cancel your subscription your apps will also stop working. If you need to build apps that work forever, you need the Standard plan.? This seems to imply that Starter plan apps ?phone home? to LiveCode when they open to check the status of the developer?s subscription. A heads up for anyone contemplating the use of this plan for app users in China?the Great Firewall is very blocking these days. If the ?phone call? connection is required, the application may not open dependably. I have experience with Internet blocking issues in China. It?s an alternate online reality there? Peter Bogdanoff From gbojsza at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:54:59 2021 From: gbojsza at gmail.com (Glen Bojsza) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:54:59 -0400 Subject: Starter Plan offer - China users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What happens if the user is on an airplane and wants to use the app? On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 2:26 PM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > The starter plan for LiveCode is described: > > "On the Starter plan, if you cancel your subscription your apps will also > stop working. If you need to build apps that work forever, you need the > Standard plan.? > > This seems to imply that Starter plan apps ?phone home? to LiveCode when > they open to check the status of the developer?s subscription. > > A heads up for anyone contemplating the use of this plan for app users in > China?the Great Firewall is very blocking these days. If the ?phone call? > connection is required, the application may not open dependably. > > I have experience with Internet blocking issues in China. It?s an > alternate online reality there? > > Peter Bogdanoff > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Mon Sep 27 15:56:55 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:56:55 -0400 Subject: Starter Plan offer - China users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01d7b3d9$d5c43600$814ca200$@net> When I do this type of licensing I allow n number of activations without phoning home to take this into account. I would hope the LC does the same. Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net -----Original Message----- From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-bounces at lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of Glen Bojsza via use-livecode Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 2:55 PM To: How to use LiveCode Cc: Glen Bojsza Subject: Re: Starter Plan offer - China users What happens if the user is on an airplane and wants to use the app? On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 2:26 PM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > The starter plan for LiveCode is described: > > "On the Starter plan, if you cancel your subscription your apps will > also stop working. If you need to build apps that work forever, you > need the Standard plan.? > > This seems to imply that Starter plan apps ?phone home? to LiveCode > when they open to check the status of the developer?s subscription. > > A heads up for anyone contemplating the use of this plan for app users > in China?the Great Firewall is very blocking these days. If the ?phone call? > connection is required, the application may not open dependably. > > I have experience with Internet blocking issues in China. It?s an > alternate online reality there? > > Peter Bogdanoff > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From andre at andregarzia.com Tue Sep 28 07:40:26 2021 From: andre at andregarzia.com (Andre Garzia) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 12:40:26 +0100 Subject: Starter Plan offer - China users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12AE558F-9C33-4E33-BC0A-68FD6F4549C7@andregarzia.com> To be honest, if ?always being able to launch standalone? is a concern for the developer, then they shouldn?t be using the Starter Plan. In my understanding the Starter Plan is a personal experience, it is available so that one can learn programming and use it to build their own tools. If someone wants to ship software, they should be using Standard Plan or above. > On 27 Sep 2021, at 19:54, Glen Bojsza via use-livecode wrote: > > What happens if the user is on an airplane and wants to use the app? > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 2:26 PM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode < > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > >> The starter plan for LiveCode is described: >> >> "On the Starter plan, if you cancel your subscription your apps will also >> stop working. If you need to build apps that work forever, you need the >> Standard plan.? >> >> This seems to imply that Starter plan apps ?phone home? to LiveCode when >> they open to check the status of the developer?s subscription. >> >> A heads up for anyone contemplating the use of this plan for app users in >> China?the Great Firewall is very blocking these days. If the ?phone call? >> connection is required, the application may not open dependably. >> >> I have experience with Internet blocking issues in China. It?s an >> alternate online reality there? >> >> Peter Bogdanoff >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From toolbook at kestner.de Tue Sep 28 07:49:30 2021 From: toolbook at kestner.de (toolbook at kestner.de) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:49:30 +0200 Subject: AW: Warning in standalone builder In-Reply-To: <630CBEBA-515F-4C38-8DB8-191E935FF8BC@m-r-d.de> References: <004c01d7a499$37f825c0$a7e87140$@kestner.de> <00b701d7b395$9e9a99b0$dbcfcd10$@kestner.de> <630CBEBA-515F-4C38-8DB8-191E935FF8BC@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <006001d7b45e$e5edee60$b1c9cb20$@kestner.de> Hello Matthias, that is correct. The funny thing is, that I've never copied my externals to this folder in one of my older versions, but never got this warning. (obviously I'd copied the relevant files to my standalone manually) Thanks Tiemo -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: use-livecode Im Auftrag von matthias rebbe via use-livecode Gesendet: Montag, 27. September 2021 14:40 An: How to use LiveCode Cc: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Betreff: Re: Warning in standalone builder Tiemo, you have to move the external also to the runtime folder. Otherwise the standalone builder cannot build include/find the external. See this lesson here https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder Regards, Matthias > Am 27.09.2021 um 13:48 schrieb Tiemo via use-livecode >: > > I am trying again to ask, if anybody knows this warning (see below) or > even has a solution? > > Thanks > > Tiemo > > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: use-livecode > Im Auftrag von Tiemo > via use-livecode > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 12:07 > An: LiveCode User Liste senden > > Cc: toolbook at kestner.de > Betreff: Warning in standalone builder > > Hi there, > > > > I get a warning when building a standalone on Win: "Windows x86-32, > external No externals.txt config file found for enhancedwin" > > I am using the enhancedwin dll and have put the externals.txt into the > following folders: > > * \MyDevelopingFolder\Externals\ > * C:\Users\myAccount\Documents\My LiveCode\Externals\ > > Where else is the LC standalone builder missing this externals.txt file? > > > > Thanks > > Tiemo > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode at lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Sep 28 08:50:52 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:50:52 +0200 Subject: AW: Warning in standalone builder In-Reply-To: <630CBEBA-515F-4C38-8DB8-191E935FF8BC@m-r-d.de> References: <004c01d7a499$37f825c0$a7e87140$@kestner.de> <00b701d7b395$9e9a99b0$dbcfcd10$@kestner.de> <630CBEBA-515F-4C38-8DB8-191E935FF8BC@m-r-d.de> Message-ID: <661F4AA0-DD87-451B-948C-32E388C70519@m-r-d.de> Hello Matthias, that is correct. The funny thing is, that I've never copied my externals to this folder in one of my older versions, but never got this warning. (obviously I'd copied the relevant files to my standalone manually) Thanks Tiemo -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: use-livecode Im Auftrag von matthias rebbe via use-livecode Gesendet: Montag, 27. September 2021 14:40 An: How to use LiveCode Cc: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Betreff: Re: Warning in standalone builder Tiemo, you have to move the external also to the runtime folder. Otherwise the standalone builder cannot build include/find the external. See this lesson here https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder Regards, Matthias From bdrunrev at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 09:46:48 2021 From: bdrunrev at gmail.com (Bernard Devlin) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:46:48 +0100 Subject: Starter Plan offer - China users In-Reply-To: <12AE558F-9C33-4E33-BC0A-68FD6F4549C7@andregarzia.com> References: <12AE558F-9C33-4E33-BC0A-68FD6F4549C7@andregarzia.com> Message-ID: Somehow I doubt that the process will be so crude that (e.g. Livecode.com DNS resolution fails) all standalones built with the Starter Plan would stop working. I'd imagine that the check for validity would happen for several days/weeks before an app stopped working. It surely isn't in LC Ltd's interest to implement this in a crude fashion. My experience in Asia 20 years ago was that no-one paid for software. There were huge computing shopping malls where DVDs of pirated products from Microsoft, Adobe, etc. could be bought for $3 per DVD (often the same DVD would contain multiple applications that we'd be paying $1000s for). On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 12:41 PM Andre Garzia via use-livecode < use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote: > To be honest, if ?always being able to launch standalone? is a concern for > the developer, then they shouldn?t be using the Starter Plan. > > In my understanding the Starter Plan is a personal experience, it is > available so that one can learn programming and use it to build their own > tools. If someone wants to ship software, they should be using Standard > Plan or above. > > From matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de Tue Sep 28 10:26:17 2021 From: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de (matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:26:17 +0200 Subject: Warning in standalone builder In-Reply-To: <006001d7b45e$e5edee60$b1c9cb20$@kestner.de> References: <004c01d7a499$37f825c0$a7e87140$@kestner.de> <00b701d7b395$9e9a99b0$dbcfcd10$@kestner.de> <630CBEBA-515F-4C38-8DB8-191E935FF8BC@m-r-d.de> <006001d7b45e$e5edee60$b1c9cb20$@kestner.de> Message-ID: <534ACF43-5229-4F66-9A31-3CA62B32DBFD@m-r-d.de> The standalone builder got some changes some time ago. So maybe with that changes the behavior how the builder searches for externals was also reworked. Anyway, you've got it working again. That's the main thing. > Am 28.09.2021 um 13:49 schrieb Tiemo via use-livecode >: > > Hello Matthias, > > that is correct. > The funny thing is, that I've never copied my externals to this folder in one of my older versions, but never got this warning. (obviously I'd copied the relevant files to my standalone manually) > > Thanks > Tiemo > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: use-livecode > Im Auftrag von matthias rebbe via use-livecode > Gesendet: Montag, 27. September 2021 14:40 > An: How to use LiveCode > > Cc: matthias_livecode_150811 at m-r-d.de > Betreff: Re: Warning in standalone builder > > Tiemo, > > you have to move the external also to the runtime folder. Otherwise the standalone builder cannot build include/find the external. > > See this lesson here > https://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/6347-how-to-install-3rd-party-externals-for-use-in-the-ide-and-standalone-builder > > > > Regards, > Matthias > From andreas.bergendal at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 08:07:10 2021 From: andreas.bergendal at gmail.com (Andreas Bergendal) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:07:10 +0200 Subject: Testers wanted for score tracking app Message-ID: <7500BE38-45E6-4FBA-A23B-4E8386FFFE09@gmail.com> Hi all, I?ll soon release an app made with LiveCode to the App Store, but I?d like to have a few more external testers first to catch whatever I?ve missed. The app is called M?lkkyMaster and is used for tracking the score when playing the outdoor throwing game M?lkky. The game is popular in some Nordic countries, France and a few other countries. It originates from Finland. Anyway, you don?t need to play M?lkky, or even have a clue how to, to help me test the app. Just create a few players and start a game. Then assign random score to the players until someone reaches 50 points. The app is multilingual, currently English, French and Swedish. German and Finnish is in the works. The app talks, and you can select different voices relevant to the language chosen. To test, you need an iPhone or iPad and the TestFlight app installed. Then use this link to download the app: https://testflight.apple.com/join/c8gKjIRJ Soon I?ll also have an Android version released for testing. I?ve optimized the app for iOS, but almost everything worked ?out of the box? when I used the same stack for an Android build. Love LiveCode! If you?ve never played M?lkky, the aspect of how well the app suits its intended target group would naturally be hard to judge. So, instead, I hope you?ll just try breaking the app and report back any technical errors, or shortcomings in the interaction design etc. In any case, any feedback is highly appreciated. Cheers, Andreas ????????? Andreas Bergendal WhenInSpace From marksmithhfx at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 09:38:43 2021 From: marksmithhfx at gmail.com (Mark Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:38:43 +0100 Subject: Testers wanted for score tracking app In-Reply-To: <7500BE38-45E6-4FBA-A23B-4E8386FFFE09@gmail.com> References: <7500BE38-45E6-4FBA-A23B-4E8386FFFE09@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3A586D44-B745-419B-92B5-13009C648CAD@gmail.com> Hi Andreas, I look forward to testing your app and will let you know how it goes. In terms of random scores, what is a good range of values to work with (what is the game range?) Thanks Mark > On Sep 30, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Andreas Bergendal via use-livecode wrote: > > Hi all, > > I?ll soon release an app made with LiveCode to the App Store, but I?d like to have a few more external testers first to catch whatever I?ve missed. > > The app is called M?lkkyMaster and is used for tracking the score when playing the outdoor throwing game M?lkky. The game is popular in some Nordic countries, France and a few other countries. It originates from Finland. > > Anyway, you don?t need to play M?lkky, or even have a clue how to, to help me test the app. Just create a few players and start a game. Then assign random score to the players until someone reaches 50 points. > > The app is multilingual, currently English, French and Swedish. German and Finnish is in the works. The app talks, and you can select different voices relevant to the language chosen. > > To test, you need an iPhone or iPad and the TestFlight app installed. Then use this link to download the app: > https://testflight.apple.com/join/c8gKjIRJ > > Soon I?ll also have an Android version released for testing. I?ve optimized the app for iOS, but almost everything worked ?out of the box? when I used the same stack for an Android build. Love LiveCode! > > If you?ve never played M?lkky, the aspect of how well the app suits its intended target group would naturally be hard to judge. > So, instead, I hope you?ll just try breaking the app and report back any technical errors, or shortcomings in the interaction design etc. > > In any case, any feedback is highly appreciated. > > Cheers, > Andreas > > ????????? > Andreas Bergendal > WhenInSpace > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 30 10:02:20 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:02:20 +0100 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> Message-ID: On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in there but it has the issues you list. > > Kind regards, > > Kevin Some of these issues can easily be tackled as a community effort / project - but it's not clear to me how the more serious ones could be done without project leadership (or at least strong involvement) from LC Ltd. The ability to store things other than traditional stacks (e.g. widgets, script-only stacks, documentation pages, e-books, ...) and how that could be handled (or tested) on LC servers means they would need LCLtd to be heavily involved. And the other half of that project (i.e. providing infrastructure support for library/LCS stacks) in the IDE/engine is certainly outside the scope of a community project. For me, this includes things like ?- standard place to keep stacks/libraries? (e.g., maybe, My Livecode/Libraries ?) ?- preference to change that in IDE, perhaps specialFolderPath("libraries") ?- naming scheme or convention (cf what was done for widgets) ?- a "require" or "include" mechanism for dependencies in libraries ?- integration into the dictionary (cf widgets again) ?- ability to add e.g. custom controls to the toolbar (cf widgets). and no doubt many others that I haven't even thought of. Without those, I think we will continue to struggle with a limited set of community-provided libraries and tools, compared to the rich ecosystem this *incredibly helpful* community should be able to provide. But, getting my head own out of the clouds, I've had a look at this as a community project - see separate email. For anyone who got this far - thanks for your patience :-), Alex. > Kevin Miller ~ kevin at livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ > LiveCode: Develop Yourself > > ?On 06/09/2021, 14:11, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via use-livecode" wrote: > > In the main thread, I mentioned that I found revOnline (aka "Sample > Stacks"), but didn't say how or why. Here the answer to that ... > > It has: > > - no differentiation between 'libraries' and 'examples' > > - it has no support for script-only stacks, which is surely the way most > libraries will be done nowadays. > > - a left hand scrolling box with ~90 'categories', in no particular > order, no grouping > > - grid vs list view - list shows you a list, which is basically the same > as a 1-wide grid rather than 2-wide, plus a larger view of some random > other item (OK, it's not random - it simply doesn't update when it should) > > - updates when you click on the picture - but gives no cursor hint that > you can do that > > - a drop-down list for sort order - which isn't sized adequately when > you first open revonline > > - a 'search' box which must search something, but I don't know what. > There is a sample stack called "Compare stack scripts", and which is > tagged as "compare" - but isn't found if you search for "compare". > > - and I usually find things via "browser + google" (or similar) and the > stuff in samples stacks isn't visible that way. > > Hmmmm - maybe I've just found my next project :-) > > Alex. > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 30 10:27:36 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:27:36 +0100 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: > >> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of >> content in there but it has the issues you list. So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here." I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) poor performance or unclear UI. In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely. It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way. UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit. ?- search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go" button was removed - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed. ?- the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or understand) ?-? tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized ?- the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and scrolled There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to "revive" it. Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions. Thanks Alex. (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to being lost and so would never have asked the question :-) From andreas.bergendal at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 10:30:46 2021 From: andreas.bergendal at gmail.com (Andreas Bergendal) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:30:46 +0200 Subject: Testers wanted for score tracking app Message-ID: <5FAD5BD5-2756-47C1-9CCB-E42CE030B1E4@gmail.com> Thanks Mark! Here is a decent video on how to play (less than 2 minutes) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fwtBomGp7Q And here are the basics in text: --- 12 wooden pins, numbered 1-12, are set up close together. Players stand 3-4 meters away and take turns trying to knock over pins with a special throwing pin. If a player knocks down one pin, the number on the pin is the score. If a player knocks down more than one pin, the number of fallen pins is the score. After each throw and score count, all fallen pins are raised up at the exact point where they fell (resulting in an ever more scattered field). After the first round, each new round starts with the player with the lowest score etc. The first player to reach exactly 50 points is the winner, and the game then ends. If a player ends up scoring over 50 points, their total score is reduced to 25 points (but they remain in the game). If a player scores 0 (misses all pins) three times in a row, they are eliminated from the game. If only one player remains in the game, they are the winner regardless of score. --- Now, to test the app, pretend to be a few people playing, and just make up a score from 0-12 for each throw. Suggested things to test: Let someone get 0 three times in a row. Let someone overshoot 50. Let someone win, etc. Shut down the app mid-game and check that it resumes the active game correctly. Click the Undo button to correct (imagined) mistakes in the scoring Modify the rules in the Settings section Change voices for the announcements (and language if you want :) Delete a previous games Delete a player Find a bug (if you can! :D) From dvglasgow at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 10:40:13 2021 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:40:13 +0100 Subject: OT Re: Testers wanted for score tracking app In-Reply-To: <5FAD5BD5-2756-47C1-9CCB-E42CE030B1E4@gmail.com> References: <5FAD5BD5-2756-47C1-9CCB-E42CE030B1E4@gmail.com> Message-ID: I visited Finland in 40 years ago, and saw someone playing kyykk? Much to the amusement of my host, I initially thought I was witnessing someone deranged throwing a stick at tins of beans. > On 30 Sep 2021, at 3:30 pm, Andreas Bergendal via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks Mark! > > Here is a decent video on how to play (less than 2 minutes) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fwtBomGp7Q > > And here are the basics in text: > > --- > 12 wooden pins, numbered 1-12, are set up close together. > > Players stand 3-4 meters away and take turns trying to knock over pins with a special throwing pin. > > If a player knocks down one pin, the number on the pin is the score. > If a player knocks down more than one pin, the number of fallen pins is the score. > > After each throw and score count, all fallen pins are raised up at the exact point where they fell (resulting in an ever more scattered field). > > After the first round, each new round starts with the player with the lowest score etc. > > The first player to reach exactly 50 points is the winner, and the game then ends. > > If a player ends up scoring over 50 points, their total score is reduced to 25 points (but they remain in the game). > If a player scores 0 (misses all pins) three times in a row, they are eliminated from the game. > > If only one player remains in the game, they are the winner regardless of score. > --- > > Now, to test the app, pretend to be a few people playing, and just make up a score from 0-12 for each throw. > > Suggested things to test: > Let someone get 0 three times in a row. > Let someone overshoot 50. > Let someone win, etc. > Shut down the app mid-game and check that it resumes the active game correctly. > Click the Undo button to correct (imagined) mistakes in the scoring > Modify the rules in the Settings section > Change voices for the announcements (and language if you want :) > Delete a previous games > Delete a player > Find a bug (if you can! :D) > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From dvglasgow at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 10:40:13 2021 From: dvglasgow at gmail.com (David V Glasgow) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:40:13 +0100 Subject: OT Re: Testers wanted for score tracking app In-Reply-To: <5FAD5BD5-2756-47C1-9CCB-E42CE030B1E4@gmail.com> References: <5FAD5BD5-2756-47C1-9CCB-E42CE030B1E4@gmail.com> Message-ID: I visited Finland in 40 years ago, and saw someone playing kyykk? Much to the amusement of my host, I initially thought I was witnessing someone deranged throwing a stick at tins of beans. > On 30 Sep 2021, at 3:30 pm, Andreas Bergendal via use-livecode wrote: > > Thanks Mark! > > Here is a decent video on how to play (less than 2 minutes) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fwtBomGp7Q > > And here are the basics in text: > > --- > 12 wooden pins, numbered 1-12, are set up close together. > > Players stand 3-4 meters away and take turns trying to knock over pins with a special throwing pin. > > If a player knocks down one pin, the number on the pin is the score. > If a player knocks down more than one pin, the number of fallen pins is the score. > > After each throw and score count, all fallen pins are raised up at the exact point where they fell (resulting in an ever more scattered field). > > After the first round, each new round starts with the player with the lowest score etc. > > The first player to reach exactly 50 points is the winner, and the game then ends. > > If a player ends up scoring over 50 points, their total score is reduced to 25 points (but they remain in the game). > If a player scores 0 (misses all pins) three times in a row, they are eliminated from the game. > > If only one player remains in the game, they are the winner regardless of score. > --- > > Now, to test the app, pretend to be a few people playing, and just make up a score from 0-12 for each throw. > > Suggested things to test: > Let someone get 0 three times in a row. > Let someone overshoot 50. > Let someone win, etc. > Shut down the app mid-game and check that it resumes the active game correctly. > Click the Undo button to correct (imagined) mistakes in the scoring > Modify the rules in the Settings section > Change voices for the announcements (and language if you want :) > Delete a previous games > Delete a player > Find a bug (if you can! :D) > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From irog at mac.com Thu Sep 30 11:17:01 2021 From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:17:01 -0700 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> Message-ID: This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can?t find it as you described. Roger > On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > > On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >> On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >> >>> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in there but it has the issues you list. > > So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here." > > I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) poor performance or unclear UI. > > In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely. > > It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way. > > UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit. > > - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go" button was removed > > - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed. > > - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or understand) > > - tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized > > - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and scrolled > > There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to "revive" it. > > Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions. > > Thanks > > Alex. > > > > > (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to being lost and so would never have asked the question :-) > > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From irog at mac.com Thu Sep 30 11:51:08 2021 From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:51:08 -0700 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <0CEDFB8B-1206-413D-8A18-3595A3346588@mac.com> There?s an old joke about a tourist in Maine asking a local for directions and an old farmer says ?You can?t get theya from hereya?. Roger > On Sep 30, 2021, at 8:17 AM, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote: > > This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can?t find it as you described. > > Roger > >> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> >> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >>> On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>>> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in there but it has the issues you list. >> >> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here." >> >> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) poor performance or unclear UI. >> >> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely. >> >> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way. >> >> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit. >> >> - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go" button was removed >> >> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed. >> >> - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or understand) >> >> - tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized >> >> - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and scrolled >> >> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to "revive" it. >> >> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions. >> >> Thanks >> >> Alex. >> >> >> >> >> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to being lost and so would never have asked the question :-) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 30 13:05:26 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 18:05:26 +0100 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <6fd1d49f-21ea-adce-68fa-9daed4e3c0f7@tweedly.net> Hmmm ... not sure why. Easy way : https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/samplestacks.livecode Or: start the IDE, and? in the toolbar (4th or so from the right) is "Sample Stacks". Then ?- select "View as: List" ?- select "All" on left hand side ?- select "Sort by: Date" ?- then reverse order the sort - and it's the most recent one !! Or - select "Plugin" in the tags column (5th one down), then type "sample" in the search box and hit "Go" Alex. On 30/09/2021 16:17, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote: > This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can?t find it as you described. > > Roger > >> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> >> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >>> On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>>> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in there but it has the issues you list. >> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here." >> >> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) poor performance or unclear UI. >> >> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely. >> >> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way. >> >> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit. >> >> - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go" button was removed >> >> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed. >> >> - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or understand) >> >> - tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized >> >> - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and scrolled >> >> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to "revive" it. >> >> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions. >> >> Thanks >> >> Alex. >> >> >> >> >> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to being lost and so would never have asked the question :-) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From irog at mac.com Thu Sep 30 13:21:57 2021 From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:21:57 -0700 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: <6fd1d49f-21ea-adce-68fa-9daed4e3c0f7@tweedly.net> References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> <6fd1d49f-21ea-adce-68fa-9daed4e3c0f7@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <1A079C13-9E1D-4572-AE08-DF9D5307FE47@mac.com> Ah, it worked this time. I thought one might need your plugin to find your plugin?. Thanks, Roger > On Sep 30, 2021, at 10:05 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > Hmmm ... not sure why. > > Easy way : https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/samplestacks.livecode > > Or: start the IDE, and in the toolbar (4th or so from the right) is "Sample Stacks". > > Then > > - select "View as: List" > > - select "All" on left hand side > > - select "Sort by: Date" > > - then reverse order the sort - and it's the most recent one !! > > > Or - select "Plugin" in the tags column (5th one down), then type "sample" in the search box and hit "Go" > > Alex. > > > On 30/09/2021 16:17, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote: >> This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can?t find it as you described. >> >> Roger >> >>> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >>>> On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>>> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in there but it has the issues you list. >>> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here." >>> >>> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) poor performance or unclear UI. >>> >>> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely. >>> >>> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way. >>> >>> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit. >>> >>> - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go" button was removed >>> >>> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed. >>> >>> - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or understand) >>> >>> - tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized >>> >>> - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and scrolled >>> >>> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to "revive" it. >>> >>> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Alex. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to being lost and so would never have asked the question :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From irog at mac.com Thu Sep 30 13:50:40 2021 From: irog at mac.com (Roger Guay) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:50:40 -0700 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: <6fd1d49f-21ea-adce-68fa-9daed4e3c0f7@tweedly.net> References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> <6fd1d49f-21ea-adce-68fa-9daed4e3c0f7@tweedly.net> Message-ID: This is really nice and fast, Alex. Thanks again for doing this as I?ve always felt that LC?s Sample Stacks is a great and often overlooked resource save for it?s interface. I note that "Log In" and "Sign Up" do not work. Is there any value in those items? Roger > On Sep 30, 2021, at 10:05 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: > > Hmmm ... not sure why. > > Easy way : https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/samplestacks.livecode > > Or: start the IDE, and in the toolbar (4th or so from the right) is "Sample Stacks". > > Then > > - select "View as: List" > > - select "All" on left hand side > > - select "Sort by: Date" > > - then reverse order the sort - and it's the most recent one !! > > > Or - select "Plugin" in the tags column (5th one down), then type "sample" in the search box and hit "Go" > > Alex. > > > On 30/09/2021 16:17, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote: >> This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can?t find it as you described. >> >> Roger >> >>> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >>>> On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>>> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in there but it has the issues you list. >>> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here." >>> >>> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) poor performance or unclear UI. >>> >>> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely. >>> >>> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way. >>> >>> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit. >>> >>> - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go" button was removed >>> >>> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed. >>> >>> - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or understand) >>> >>> - tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized >>> >>> - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and scrolled >>> >>> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to "revive" it. >>> >>> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Alex. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to being lost and so would never have asked the question :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From alex at tweedly.net Thu Sep 30 14:47:13 2021 From: alex at tweedly.net (Alex Tweedly) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:47:13 +0100 Subject: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition] In-Reply-To: References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> <6fd1d49f-21ea-adce-68fa-9daed4e3c0f7@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <1a8f9efd-1fc7-b189-8e6e-f26bc3b71879@tweedly.net> They're only used for uploading or editing stacks that you want to share. (Oh, now that I think about it, maybe also to rate a stack from someone else). I thought about just removing those buttons from the plugin (IMHO, the upload/edit functions are fine as they are), but then I thought someone might spend time trying to find how to do those actions; better, I think, to have an obvious button which immediately tells you that the plugin doesn't support it. The main reason for not including that functionality was that I felt it was just a bit "off" to have a plugin ask for your username/password; I was glad to find that there doesn't seem to much need to do that part. Alex. On 30/09/2021 18:50, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote: > This is really nice and fast, Alex. Thanks again for doing this as I?ve always felt that LC?s Sample Stacks is a great and often overlooked resource save for it?s interface. I note that "Log In" and "Sign Up" do not work. Is there any value in those items? > > Roger > >> On Sep 30, 2021, at 10:05 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >> >> Hmmm ... not sure why. >> >> Easy way : https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/samplestacks.livecode >> >> Or: start the IDE, and in the toolbar (4th or so from the right) is "Sample Stacks". >> >> Then >> >> - select "View as: List" >> >> - select "All" on left hand side >> >> - select "Sort by: Date" >> >> - then reverse order the sort - and it's the most recent one !! >> >> >> Or - select "Plugin" in the tags column (5th one down), then type "sample" in the search box and hit "Go" >> >> Alex. >> >> >> On 30/09/2021 16:17, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote: >>> This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can?t find it as you described. >>> >>> Roger >>> >>>> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in there but it has the issues you list. >>>> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here." >>>> >>>> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) poor performance or unclear UI. >>>> >>>> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely. >>>> >>>> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way. >>>> >>>> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit. >>>> >>>> - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go" button was removed >>>> >>>> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed. >>>> >>>> - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or understand) >>>> >>>> - tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized >>>> >>>> - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and scrolled >>>> >>>> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to "revive" it. >>>> >>>> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Alex. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to being lost and so would never have asked the question :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> use-livecode mailing list >>>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >>> _______________________________________________ >>> use-livecode mailing list >>> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode at lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode at lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode From rdimola at evergreeninfo.net Thu Sep 30 20:36:15 2021 From: rdimola at evergreeninfo.net (Ralph DiMola) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 20:36:15 -0400 Subject: iOS 15 and Xcode Cant Install app In-Reply-To: <1a8f9efd-1fc7-b189-8e6e-f26bc3b71879@tweedly.net> References: <9548dbc1-e6ce-9dd4-18a4-d5d8ae07871c@tweedly.net> <2937c603-10f0-ecac-4893-b7a6284b7ebe@tweedly.net> <6fd1d49f-21ea-adce-68fa-9daed4e3c0f7@tweedly.net> <1a8f9efd-1fc7-b189-8e6e-f26bc3b71879@tweedly.net> Message-ID: <000001d7b65c$5f2b03e0$1d810ba0$@net> I built an ad-hoc iOS app using Catalina 10.15.7 Xcode 12.4 and LC 9.6.3. A tester tried to install and got ("App name" Needs to be updated. The developer of this app need to update it to work with this version of iOS) I know this was brought up on the list but was there a resolution? >From the Apple developer site: ?Starting April 2022, all iOS and iPadOS apps submitted to the App Store must be built with Xcode 13 and the iOS 15 SDK? Xcode 12.4 has the iOS 14.4 SDK so I should be OK until 4/2022. The tester had a pre installed version the app that used the iOS 13 SDK built last year that ran OK until they tried to install the new app. Could this be an LC issue (plist?) or did Apple change the rules? It seems that the older SDKs will run but just can't be installed. Is this an ad-hoc app only problem?? I've seen conflicting info while doing some searches. Does anyone know? Thanks in advance Ralph DiMola IT Director Evergreen Information Services rdimola at evergreeninfo.net