Refactoring is your friend / moving from 6.x to 9.x

Curry Kenworthy curry at
Thu Jan 3 22:20:53 CET 2019

Sorry Bob (not to single you out, on the contrary thanks for your reply 
and sharing your experience) but just be aware I never not enter a 
thread lightly, nor were my words hasty. This has been a situation years 
in the making, with plenty of evidence behind it, and I've been many 
years in the LC arena. My list and forum silence may sometimes mask my 
eternal presence and busy contributions. I realize that the human mind 
tends to favor the loudest and most frequent voices (in marketing it's 
recognized that an audience needs to hear a message repeated 3 times to 
even notice it, whereas if you repeat yourself 3 times in code you've 
broken a rule) so when popping up now and then, I will remind the hasty 
of reply that while my points are easy to dismiss on the subjective 
basis of being heard less frequently, they are built on solid ground and 
difficult to overturn by factual or logical approach.

(I don't have spare time to be one of the loudest and most frequent 
voices here, so for better or worse this post must satisfy the 
obligatory 3 times mentioning, and unfortunately that's all I can spare; 
I'll be back in lurk/work mode soon after this because as my clients 
know, they come first; no exceptions. Even addons come second and 
conversation is last. To sum up what years of factual records will show, 
I'm not one of the most frequent posters here on the list, but I am one 
of the most frequently involved consultants in the LC world. So....)

> Not to put too fine a point on this, but ALL development
> environments suffer from this.

Not all to the same extent. And there's the difference, adding to 
personal preference and work needs/range of experience. Without going 
too far down that potentially red herring road, when it could be called 
suffering it's too much. When done right it doesn't cause suffering. 
That will vary per personal preference, bias, and experience, but what 
stays true is that efficiency is better than a lack of it. I'm sure you 
have many examples, but I would have many counter-examples, plus I think 
arguing for quality and efficiency is a stronger position that arguing 
for a lower-quality, lower-efficiency bandwagon. Winning an irrelevant 
contest of examples would not weaken my point, so we can probably save 
that particular trip.

> I moved projects from LC6 to LC9 with little difficulty.
> My problems revolved around app building, and I got through
> that fairly simply.

I'm genuinely happy for you there! I work for a wide variety of client 
projects and my own addons and other projects, so it takes me lots of 
places within LC. Not one platform nor approach nor area of LC 
endeavors. I also have spent a lot of time tracking down issues to 
report, investing my own addon income right back in LC debugging rather 
than own products, to help LC through the transitions, and many of those 
bugs have been fixed. You may have benefited from those and the efforts 
of others who dedicated a lot of time to that. So I applaud your own 
luck and lack of trouble, but perhaps fortunately you were in an area 
that benefited from the most attention to fixes and the least need for 

But never mind me; for anyone to argue that there was no extra work 
involved, they would have to scrub some messages from the list in 
general and this thread in particular. I'm not sure if you read the 
original post in this thread, but the extra work was acknowledged right 
there when starting this thread, by others. Without that, we wouldn't be 
having this conversation in the first place, no matter whether criticism 
or justification, so I feel no need to say more on that point; 
sufficiently documented although perhaps not a universal condition. But 
remember, not everyone who became frustrated came back. There were other 
discussions, including a somewhat hilarious one that I can't relate here 
due to privacy agreements but where I was the person complaining the 
LEAST of many prominent LC members in that particular conversation.

(Likewise, those separate points of defense argue against themselves to 
a degree; if there was no trouble in your case, then do all environments 
indeed suffer the problem? Separately good defenses, but together, not 
quite as strong.)

Sorry again (and nothing personal, I appreciate your comments) and can 
understand your POV from your particular experience, but no amount of 
talk can disprove (A) repeatable test results and (B) the economics of 
efficiency. Those will stand on their own.

> I could go on singing my own praises, but my point is, the
> assessment of profitability often depends largely on where you
> decide to plant your flag.

As I said, I'm stable here, as are the laws of this universe - no 
running off disappointed or depressed, no coming back and gushing over 
it. No urge to overly defend or rationalize the last two years, nor any 
need to criticize beyond an objective measure.

My work has been consistent and steady, and in fact I've also gained 
some extra work from the LC 6 to 9 transition issues. I'm just usually 
doing my work rather than here on-list talking about it. I'd love to do 
more talking, but of the two, work must come first and often that means 
work must come only. That's why it's pretty rare for me to show up on a 
topic, but that means when I do, it's after a good deal of calculation, 
and any who assume I didn't think it through are usually disappointed. 
The facts are there and the issue has been on the back burner for a long 
time during different experiences.

But just as my work is stable, so are my ethics, my adherence to quality 
and efficient code, and my sticking to economic reality - regardless of 
trends, friends, popular corporations, and the like. Those don't change. 
There's no such thing as "I'm doing OK so inefficiency must be OK." 
Efficiency is mathematically better, therefore it's what I seek myself 
and for clients and customers, and what I promote unbashfully. Yes, 2 is 
greater than 1 in all the relevant cases in our universe and current 
system, and yes that matters! :D

My flag has always been pointed in the same place(s) for these many 
years - and this approach of doing what's morally right and 
mathematically sound, regardless of trends, has been successful despite 
challenges and changes. These are things that don't change. Better 
methods, the need for innovative approaches and new solutions, efficient 
and cost-effective code, debugging and fixing without side effects by 
following proper procedure, teaching quality methods while consulting 
and teaching for coders and projects at every stage of development or 
the lack thereof. All these are ethical, but also economically sound. I 
am unapologetic in advancing these principles; in fact I would feel 
immoral to do otherwise.

Since I am involved with a lot of projects in different areas and fairly 
often am required to deal with a portion of the "runoff" from upstream 
as well as develop solutions for current and future 3rd-party LC needs, 
I do see the bigger picture and a large portion of the effects on 
different types of users, and it makes perfect sense for me to pop up 
and intervene upstream at times if it's important enough, because that 
would be (again) more efficient than the alternative. And for the sake 
of others of course. I am a very empathetic and caring person.

But no time for singing or talking - back to quality work and curtains 
for interlude of encouraging efficiency. I advocate the benefits of 
reality, but force it on no one, and am truly thankful for all those who 
are fortunate with the status quo. :)

Apologies if any of this sounds at all snarky, because it's not intended 
as such, nor aimed personally at Bob or anyone else. Argument often 
breeds good results. I appreciate all views and don't need to promote my 
own beliefs beyond the demands of my own ethics/conscience, the logical 
points of arguments, and the balance of practical benefits. I've done my 
part for now, until there's another performance change, in which case I 
promise to fully document. Just a quick reply here to emphasize reliable 
repeatable observations with public tests, and sound principles of 
software code. Have a good day everyone and my regards to many of you 
that I haven't written off-list for a while!

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting

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