Defaults for groups

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami brahma at
Tue May 17 03:41:08 CEST 2016

The use case(s) are the ones we don't want to have happen:

Newbie: ("thinking: I want a group in the upper left corner of my window")

Make new stack
Drag out graphic  set width to 200 height to 100
Add btn 1 on top; btn 2 on top
Group all. 
Set group top 0; left 0 

Huh? What's this two pixel space?  Newbie has no idea about "margins" yet may not even see that at the very bottom. Borderwidth is also set to 2, but "showborder" is unchecked so… assume the setting has not effect. Ergo… margin also set to 4, but I did set any margin.. so, like the border, assume the integer "4" has no effect..
Newbie does a lot of html/css/javascript…looking for a less painful way to dev stuff… trying LiveCode…  …in that html5 world a div has no margins until one explicitly sets them… so what is going on here?

(New user is getting a little put out now… just to get the group right is already painful….)

OK… let's try this: margins are set to 4Click and delete the integer 4, change to 0

Close inspector.. huh?  Transparent border is still there…. What? Open inspector… sheesh…  The 4 is back … I thought I just deleted it? Is this IDE broken? It's not saving my changes? (My trust level for this usefulness of this new product drops by some level… as much as 50% for the impatient)

If he/she was lucky enough to intuit there is some esoteric relationship between the fact that the default borderwidth is set to 2 and even though the "show Border" is not checked.. .that this somehow inexplicably relates… he will delete the "2"  set the borderWidth to 0 

*then* and only then will the change to margins:0  stick.

90% of the newbies will *not* get it that the borderWidth has some relation to margins

These are the "uses cases" we need never to happen..

So I'm not complaining… I'm looking to help LC with user retention.

It's enough to make some one decide this is not a product they can dealt with. 

There are numerous such challenging scenarios that all us old timers will defend as "the way it has always been."  

"I'm just sayin"  That a great deal of improvements in the IDE UX could be made with very low engine change requirements -- little cost over head for HQ… 

On 5/16/16, 6:14 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin" <use-livecode-bounces at on behalf of ambassador at> wrote:

>Personally I don't mind one way or another if this were changed, providing:
>1. An effort has been made to quantify use cases to show unquestionable 
>benefit, or at least something close to it.  It is, after all, easier to 
>guess what the value of 0 should be when you need it than to guess the 
>value of a HIG-savvy margin when you need that instead.

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