Release 8.0 DP 14
prothero at earthednet.org
Sat Feb 6 12:05:24 EST 2016
Well said, Roland! My sentiments as well. The dev team is putting a lot of reliance on the users to do a lot of testing, and we will probably keep finding bugs, which the team will jump on. They deserve a lot of respect. A local Santa Barbara philosopher said: "I am not perfect, but parts of me are excellent!" That is the case with livecode.
Great job, guys!
> On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:14 AM, Roland Huettmann <roland.huettmann at gmail.com> wrote:
> The contribution of Dr. Hawkins to this subject the other has made me think
> a lot.
> I am not sure if I have that kind of competency to even write a reply. But
> finally I decided to contribute some of my reflection.
> Though I know from many many years of experience with hundreds of
> developers that for mission-critical applications and timely deliveries to
> customers quality of service is vital.There is no "pardon" from the
> customers side when failures to deliver quality become a frequent issue.
> And in such projects, it would not have been possible so far using LiveCode
> as a front-end, and even less using it as a back-end. Unfortunately.
> And I really love LiveCode and support wherever I can.
> Dr. Hawkins arguments - in my humble opinion - have a valid side, while at
> the same time to me they seem narrowed down to a limited personal domain.
> LiveCode can not just stay where it was 2 or 3 years ago, or 10 years ago,
> just to be "stable". It is not made to serve one person, or just one group,
> or one company. It would be very easy if that were the case.
> For example, without native Unicode support - I would no longer be
> interested, and the world-wide market would not be as well.
> And there is always just the possibility to stick and stay with an older
> version. I can still use XP on Windows, or Windows 95. I can still turn on
> my old first Macintosh from 1985. And it has done things amazingly well. I
> could write letters, compute Excel sheets and do all kinds of funny things.
> We have had big eyes in those days.
> But I am also sometimes thinking, for what am I spending hours and hours,
> days and days, trying to figure out what the hack is happening with one or
> the other implementation. For example, since years I am failing using the
> Geometry Manager. First it seems to work fine. Then suddenly controls
> disappear and end up somewhere in space. So, I decided not using it, but it
> is still there for other people to develop a headache. Would it not be
> wiser to completely remove it until there is a stable and reliable version?
> Just today I tested the revBrowserCef again. Rather than having a buggy
> browser instance, I would rather not have one at all. On my Windows system
> (and the business world is Windows) it just makes even typing into the
> message box almost not possible - so much the browser instance is slowing
> down other work. Other functions also do not work. But writing another Bug
> report? There will be a new browser in 8. So, better wait... do not bother
> the team with reports for 6, 7 ...
> Again, from my experience, what LiveCode is trying to achieve is a huge
> vision, and a HUGE effort - and again thinking of our own experiences with
> much larger groups of developers - it is a pain in the ... to have to
> support so many different systems, different browsers, different use-case
> for the whole world.
> Is it not just TOOOO much?
> In a well paid professional set-up - and money plays a big role here - we
> had teams of testers with 10-12 people doing nothing but TESTING. Then you
> need specialists for each platform. You need to set up various machines
> with different flavors of operating systems. You need use-cases to test,
> test-stacks, test environments - testing is a "science" in itself. And it
> is not for free.. I know a testing company in France - they have all models
> of all smart phones to test applications running on all those devices. They
> physically have ALL of them. They offer nothing but testing.
> With a small team reaching the end of such tunnel - it is my feeling, my
> impression that it is so - will there ever be such end?
> 100,000 dollars is nothing. 500,000 dollars is nothing. Bigger companies
> spend millions and millions - and fail often enough. I have seen it here in
> Switzerland with insurance companies, banks, government - over 100 million
> dollars lost on a software project !!! And you read about such failed
> project every other day.
> ( htp://
> It is highly AMAZING that such a small team is working day and night and
> sweating to get things out and done trying to accomplish something that
> would need hundreds of developers usually. And I do not see hundreds of
> developers even participating in this list.
> I have more than respect !!!
> Yes - for mission critical applications of industrial strength it is an
> open question.
> I say to myself that I will patiently wait for the Version 8 to become
> stable enough - even if it takes a year from now and does not do everything
> planned. I have all the understanding for such problems based on many years
> of experience with teams of developers.
> It is impossible to know in advance all those hurdles and shortcomings in
> software development. What I thought my own teams could do in 6 months
> always took us a year and even more than that to really finish up. Even
> using best practice and highly competent people it was not possible to
> seriously know where the development will take us to.
> From time to time we all have the right getting upset thinking "what am I
> doing here?". But this team deserves more patience and more support from
> all sides and from everywhere. Much much more.
> When we demand more resources, more this and more that - who is thinking
> how such demand could be fulfilled - if not in an environment which is very
> healthy being fully funded? But 100 dollars here, or there... ? (I do not
> know LiveCodes monthly revenue, but I suspect it is not that big...)
> My rule of thumb: Make a good estimation of how much time you need for your
> project. Think about it deeply. Use all kinds of techniques to come to a
> viable conclusion. Be 100% sure that you will do it during that period of
> time. And then multiply such assessment with the factor of 4.
> It always worked. )
>> On 6 February 2016 at 04:14, Kay C Lan <lan.kc.macmail at gmail.com> wrote:
>> At first, I've got to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed... but then
>> discovered I hadn't updated at all.
>> I normally always use the link provided to grab the download but for some
>> reason this time I just used the 'Check for Updates' in the Help menu. I
>> should have realised something was up when the Installer didn't ask me
>> where I wanted to Install to - I always install to My Applications folder
>> not the All User Application folder.
>> I don't see a need to clutter the QCC, just be aware that at least on OS X
>> dp 13 the Check for Updates points to the wrong file and you are better off
>> grabbing the dp 14 file directly.
>> Having got dp14... wow, awesome, the changes are immediately apparent. The
>> Dictionary is useable! It's like Christmas has come again.
>> So thankful for those many talented people at the matriarchal maritime
>> transportation vessel establishment (not wishing to offend Peter ;-) who
>> have spent so much time learning impenetrable, cryptic and downright
>> cantankerous foreign languages (C++, Objective C, Apple iOS app submission
>> requirements...) so that I don't have to and all they ask in return is that
>> any time I've got a bit of a grumble is click a Bookmark and fill out an
>> online form. Seems terribly one sided, but OK.
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