Release 8.0 DP 14

Roland Huettmann roland.huettmann at
Sat Feb 6 07:14:47 EST 2016

The contribution of Dr. Hawkins to this subject the other has made me think
a lot.

I am not sure if I have that kind of competency to even write a reply. But
finally I decided to contribute some of my reflection.

Though I know from many many years of experience with hundreds of
developers that for mission-critical applications and timely deliveries to
customers quality of service is vital.There is no "pardon" from the
customers side when failures to deliver quality become a frequent issue.
And in such projects, it would not have been possible so far using LiveCode
as a front-end, and even less using it as a back-end. Unfortunately.

And I really love LiveCode and support wherever I can.

Dr. Hawkins arguments - in my humble opinion - have a valid side, while at
the same time to me they seem narrowed down to a limited personal domain.
LiveCode can not just stay where it was 2 or 3 years ago, or 10 years ago,
just to be "stable". It is not made to serve one person, or just one group,
or one company. It would be very easy if that were the case.

For example, without native Unicode support - I would no longer be
interested, and the world-wide market would not be as well.

And there is always just the possibility to stick and stay with an older
version. I can still use XP on Windows, or Windows 95.  I can still turn on
my old first Macintosh from 1985. And it has done things amazingly well. I
could write letters, compute Excel sheets and do all kinds of funny things.
We have had big eyes in those days.

But I am also sometimes thinking, for what am I spending hours and hours,
days and days, trying to figure out what the hack is happening with one or
the other implementation. For example, since years I am failing using the
Geometry Manager. First it seems to work fine. Then suddenly controls
disappear and end up somewhere in space. So, I decided not using it, but it
is still there for other people to develop a headache. Would it not be
wiser to completely remove it until there is a stable and reliable version?

Just today I tested the revBrowserCef again. Rather than having a buggy
browser instance, I would rather not have one at all. On my Windows system
(and the business world is Windows) it just makes even typing into the
message box almost not possible - so much the browser instance is slowing
down other work. Other functions also do not work. But writing another Bug
report? There will be a new browser in 8. So, better wait... do not bother
the team with reports for 6, 7 ...

Again, from my experience, what LiveCode is trying to achieve is a huge
vision, and a HUGE effort - and again thinking of our own experiences with
much larger groups of developers - it is a pain in the ... to have to
support so many different systems, different browsers, different use-case
for the whole world.

Is it not just TOOOO much?

In a well paid professional set-up - and money plays a big role here - we
had teams of testers with 10-12 people doing nothing but TESTING. Then you
need specialists for each platform. You need to set up various machines
with different flavors of operating systems. You need use-cases to test,
test-stacks, test environments - testing is a "science" in itself. And it
is not for free.. I know a testing company in France - they have all models
of all smart phones to test applications running on all those devices. They
physically have ALL of them. They offer nothing but testing.

With a small team reaching the end of such tunnel - it is my feeling, my
impression that it is so - will there ever be such end?

100,000 dollars is nothing. 500,000 dollars is nothing. Bigger companies
spend millions and millions - and fail often enough. I have seen it here in
Switzerland with insurance companies, banks, government - over 100 million
dollars lost on a software project !!! And you read about such failed
project every other day.

( htp://

It is highly AMAZING that such a small team is working day and night and
sweating to get things out and done trying to accomplish something that
would need hundreds of developers usually. And I do not see hundreds of
developers even participating in this list.

I have more than respect !!!

Yes - for mission critical applications of industrial strength it is an
open question.

I say to myself that I will patiently wait for the Version 8 to become
stable enough - even if it takes a year from now and does not do everything
planned. I have all the understanding for such problems based on many years
of experience with teams of developers.

It is impossible to know in advance all those hurdles and shortcomings in
software development. What I thought my own teams could do in 6 months
always took us a year and even more than that to really finish up. Even
using best practice and highly competent people it was not possible to
seriously know where the development will take us to.

>From time to time we all have the right getting upset thinking "what am I
doing here?". But this team deserves more patience and more support from
all sides and from everywhere. Much much more.

When we demand more resources, more this and more that - who is thinking
how such demand could be fulfilled - if not in an environment which is very
healthy being fully funded? But 100 dollars here, or there... ? (I do not
know LiveCodes monthly revenue, but I suspect it is not that big...)


My rule of thumb: Make a good estimation of how much time you need for your
project. Think about it deeply. Use all kinds of techniques to come to a
viable conclusion. Be 100% sure that you will do it during that period of
time. And then multiply such assessment with the factor of 4.

It always worked. )

On 6 February 2016 at 04:14, Kay C Lan <lan.kc.macmail at> wrote:

> At first, I've got to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed... but then
> discovered I hadn't updated at all.
> I normally always use the link provided to grab the download but for some
> reason this time I just used the 'Check for Updates' in the Help menu. I
> should have realised something was up when the Installer didn't ask me
> where I wanted to Install to - I always install to My Applications folder
> not the All User Application folder.
> I don't see a need to clutter the QCC, just be aware that at least on OS X
> dp 13 the Check for Updates points to the wrong file and you are better off
> grabbing the dp 14 file directly.
> Having got dp14... wow, awesome, the changes are immediately apparent. The
> Dictionary is useable! It's like Christmas has come again.
> So thankful for those many talented people at the matriarchal maritime
> transportation vessel establishment (not wishing to offend Peter ;-) who
> have spent so much time learning impenetrable, cryptic and downright
> cantankerous foreign languages (C++, Objective C, Apple iOS app submission
> requirements...) so that I don't have to and all they ask in return is that
> any time I've got a bit of a grumble is click a Bookmark and fill out an
> online form. Seems terribly one sided, but OK.
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