LiveCode for the rest of us

[Peter Haworth]

I guess I'm going to have to find time to get SQLMagic finished (
http://www.lcsql.com/sqlmagic.html).  Been distracted with other projects
for a while.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:02 PM Tim Selander <selander at tkf.att.ne.jp> wrote:

> Roland,
>
> Amen, preach it brother!
>
> Filemaker with xTalk replacing FM's miserable "scripting."  I
> have been looking for that product, to no avail, since the demise
> of HyperCard.
>
> Tim Selander
> Tokyo, Japan
>
>
> On 9/19/15, 1:59, R.H. wrote:
> > Following the really interesting discussions on this list for two years,
> > enjoying the verve with which those developers in Edinburgh are trying to
> > stitch the pieces together – and I know how much dedication this requires
> > supporting so many different platforms and aspects of the LiveCode
> engine –
> > and I want to thank them and support them  - I think, not being a
> hard-core
> > programmer, just maybe an advanced user, just someone with ideas about
> > possible applications, I sometimes feel a bit lost.
> >
> >
> > I enjoy the smart contributions seen here on the list, maybe it from
> Monte,
> > or Peter, or Rick or whoever.
> >
> >
> > So, I am not sure my contribution here would lead to another thread about
> > LiveCode and how the "rest of us" – the non programmers – might see it.
> It
> > is just my very subjective contribution as a non-programmer.
> >
> >
> > Even I am thinking often, how such group of dedicated LiveCode mothership
> > developers could receive more support, or how the business model for them
> > would work out. Because without money nothing can be done. For example, I
> > am paying for a Microsoft membership, for Adobe creative tools, for
> Google
> > Cloud space, for a dedicated VPN to allow myself to not being detected
> as a
> > Swiss user only (10 dollars per month), I am paying 5 bucks for my daily
> > coffee in the coffee shop.
> >
> >
> > Assuming 100,000 paying LiveCode customers, every one paying 10 dollars
> > each month, it would be sufficient to get things really going and
> inviting
> > many more supporters and developers to be on board. If it does not reach
> > big numbers, what would be the future of LiveCode? It has to grow BIG.
> >
> >
> > To me and my clients, the front end usability is what we see and what we
> > want.
> >
> >
> > I love LiveCode for its language and doing what I tell it to do (more or
> > less) with simple English expressions. I question it for not providing me
> > the necessary building blocks of an integrated framework allowing to do
> > simple things without having to worry about the details. I do not really
> > like its current standard visual interface, and it requires quite some
> work
> > to make this interface shine and be really usable to end users.
> >
> >
> > I love Filemaker as one of the tools I am using for in-house-development,
> > but I hate its scripting language and its slow upgrade cycle, its many
> > limitations, and for a small company it is already much too costly to
> > distribute solutions to other users. It is not a language. It is just a
> > nice database application development engine.
> >
> >
> > What I am up to in my contribution would be the vision that LiveCode
> would
> > introduce aspects of something like Filemaker.
> >
> >
> > I am convinced that the majority of paying users (monthly 10 dollars)
> would
> > be business people, smallest companies for 1-10 people - but they have
> > business needs – and business almost always needs database applications.
> > So, we are talking about database driven applications.
> >
> >
> > Such apps are not made just for fun or done as a hobby, or to develop a
> lot
> > of games. There is a definite business reason, abiding to platform
> specific
> > usability guidelines, looking sexy, and doing what they have to do for
> lots
> > of end users, non programmers, just users like you and me. And a business
> > is ready to pay for that. Business is not paying for games. The game
> market
> > is a different market, even though game-like presentations are sometimes
> > also very useful. ( I am not against using LiveCode for game-development
> or
> > anything to not be misunderstood ))).
> >
> >
> > The Filemaker market is already big enough. I am sure many Filemaker
> users
> > and developers would switch to LiveCode if it would provide a similar
> ease
> > of development and deployment. And that means possibly using the new-born
> > widgets technology.
> >
> >
> > But today, I am still much faster in developing a small solution for a
> > company using Filemaker compared to LiveCode. Much faster!
> >
> >
> > Why not there is a field that can easily be set to display international
> > date and time formats and automatically would default to local standards
> > without having to script a lot and redoing the same work over and over
> > again? Why not a field can be defined to represent whatever data it
> should
> > provide and automatically check user input? Why not there are classes of
> > fields that can be defined behaving the same using a domain-like concept?
> >
> >
> > Why not there is a data grid working like a portal in Filemaker, just
> > allowing to insert whatever we want, buttons and pictures, fields and
> > menus? I do not have the time to work with the details of the current
> data
> > grid – except for simple text input. Why should I have to script myself
> all
> > the small bits and pieces? It needs too much time. And if fields are
> > connected with an underlying database, I want to see the updates
> > immediately. And why not there is a data input mechanism - add data, edit
> > data, remove data, show data including filtering and sorting? That is the
> > pattern everybody is used to.
> >
> >
> > Why not there is an easy way to define a database with tables and then
> link
> > database fields to tables? It could allow defining everything in the
> > database while defining the fields including validation rules, indexes,
> > etc.? And then allow to create links between tables combining data so
> that
> > SQL would only be needed on a more deeper level?
> >
> >
> > Why not there could be an automatic synchronization mechanism between a
> > local database such as SQLite and a server database such as MySQL or
> MS-SQL
> > or whatever? Do I have to all program that myself?
> >
> >
> > Why not there would be a simple in-built filter and search mechanism to
> > display data and to export/import or create output using an inbuilt
> Report
> > engine?
> >
> >
> > Why not there is a security framework easy to include protecting data,
> > whether on a local machine, or distributed in a network, or kept on some
> > server?
> >
> >
> > Take the complexity away from the standard user as much as possible. Let
> > the user focus on the application in business or private work. Above
> that,
> > there is still all the space to go deeper and deeper for those who have
> the
> > time and enjoy it, or must do it. And that possibility greatly ads to the
> > user enjoyment.
> >
> >
> > I would love to see such framework integrated into the engine, or very
> > closely related to it, that does all such work and leaves me focusing on
> > WHAT I want to achieve, and not on HOW to achieve it.
> >
> >
> > And I agree, there is a difference in deployment for small screens, or
> big
> > desktop monitors with various sizes and resolutions. Not everything will
> > ever be possible using just one layout. But at least the data sources
> > should be available everywhere, the basic logic should be there, the
> > expected functionality should work the same everywhere. And then there
> is a
> > difference in layout and what a user can do depending on the hardware he
> is
> > using.
> >
> >
> > I hope very much that all this will become possible with LiveCode 8 and
> > higher. Or maybe, I am too ambitious? I would love to see the better
> > Filemaker worked out using LiveCode. And it will find hundreds of
> thousands
> > of users, and therefore developers.
> >
> >
> > Because such LiveCode will be more fun, that is interesting, sexy, that
> is
> > unique to each company. Changes to a data model should be easy,
> deployment
> > to many users should just be a push-button operation.
> >
> >
> > LiveCode applications must also visually look like a very modern
> > state-of-the-art piece of solid work, really supporting standard
> usability
> > and user interface guidelines, or allow to break standards only in case
> > there is a definite advantage. Follow the rules unless you master the
> > rules. Only then you can break out.
> >
> >
> > I have seen so many ugly LiveCode applications – and I am even producing
> > such ugly apps myself – that there is no wonder that nobody out there
> gets
> > overly exited since there are thousands of nice looking web pages and web
> > applications, and desktop and mobile apps...
> >
> >
> > Again, I vote for paying 10 dollars a month, and supporting a very speedy
> > growth of LiveCode to have hundreds of thousands of such paying users and
> > customers. I am not willing to spend 100 dollars a month as I am
> comparing
> > with other tools, and I am already paying lots of money which creating
> > holes in my purse. 10 bucks everyone will easily afford for something he
> or
> > she likes.The profit is in the numbers.
> >
> >
> > And at least then I could also expect that documentation is reflecting
> the
> > actual engine and I am not spending hours and days searching around just
> to
> > find out that something is not working, or not working as expected.
> > documentation is a field that needs a huge effort to improve.
> >
> >
> > And why not there are ready-made solutions as in Filemaker that just can
> be
> > tailored to individual needs providing the basis for a professional
> looking
> > and behaving application? All the basic coding should be there providing
> a
> > template about how to script in LiveCode. It is not enough to have a
> small
> > scale app displaying something. It should serve a business purpose, a
> > private purpose, an educational purpose. because business will pay for
> > LiveCode development. And if the big business guys are not sold out to it
> > yet, the small business guys will do it.
> >
> >
> > There need to be hundreds and even thousands of well-looking and
> > well-performing apps out there stamped with "Made with LiveCode". How to
> > make developers do that? They must see the advantage. They must see the
> > business for themselves. They do it to earn money as well!
> >
> >
> > I would employ developers paying 10 bucks to LiveCode for each of them
> each
> > month, and have them develop what I want to receive, and my clients want
> to
> > enjoy. I would even have them contribute to the engine.
> >
> >
> > And I just believe that LiveCode needs many more professional developers
> > and people focused coding, on professional documentation and on marketing
> > this "mothership". Why not outsource part of the work to save costs? I
> > myself have built and managed teams of over 100 people in software
> > development over 15 years, and it was really a joy working with
> intelligent
> > people for reasonable costs. At least there could be testing team
> > outsourced somewhere. Why not many more autistic people - often good in
> > programming - are taking the rid? Or educated young people coming from
> > Syria as refugees? Or lots of smart people growing up every day in
> Africa?
> > Or India? Maybe it is too difficult to convince already established
> > programmers? And a lot could be sponsored. I am not talking of small
> > numbers of intelligent people.
> >
> >
> > If LiveCode is not growing faster, fed from a naturally increasing
> interest
> > and driven by the joy of doing it, shared by developers around the world
> > who are just happily supporting it, then there is a danger that it would
> > eventually sink down to the bottom of the sea.
> >
> >
> > Embrace the world. Become attractive. There must be a "wow" effect to
> move
> > people.
> >
> >
> > I want to see LiveCode lifting up like the flying Dutch- (sorry)
> Scotsman,
> > soon, sooner, today.
> >
> >
> > Roland
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
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