Open Source Kickstarter Report Card

Ali Lloyd ali at runrev.com
Wed Aug 19 20:48:32 CEST 2015


A few words on the IDE:
Although we've not been able to prioritise IDE development in the 8.0
cycle, a great deal of work has been done and groundwork for future
improvement laid.
Firstly, a fair portion of that work has gone into supporting widgets, both
in terms of their integration in the IDE and in providing a means for their
development.
Perhaps the most important progress has been using script-only stacks for
many parts of the IDE that were previously binary. The menu bar, tools
palette, dictionary, property inspector, all the library stacks, the home
stack and the script-editor behaviours have been moved/turned into single
script-only stacks. In most cases this was a distinctly non-trivial task,
but was carried out as a partial solution to the IDE vcs problem, and
enables proper git flow and code review for most of the important parts of
the IDE. It is now far easier for both us and the community to fix bugs and
submit patches. If the IDE feels as though not much has changed, that is
due in some part to the effort made to preserve behaviour whilst carrying
out these changes.
Architecturally a lot has changed too. Individual elements of the IDE now
react to internal messages for which they have registered through a central
IDE library. This will eventually make elements of the IDE much more
pluggable, and also improve IDE performance.
As far as I'm concerned these have all been strict prerequisites for any
genuine progress on modernisation and usability improvements of the IDE.
The biggest current roadblock is the script editor which is large and
dense, and the debugger. These will likely be best rebuilt using LiveCode
Builder, once it has sufficient features to do so.

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 at 17:16, Roger Eller <roger.e.eller at sealedair.com>
wrote:

> Good for beginners, yes.  But also for speciaized areas of a workflow, like
> navigation defaults.  I didn't say lets make a UI that doesn't require any
> code.  The Automation Engine I use has tasks that are for specialty
> purposes, but also within this workflow environment you can add a external
> task icon, allowing it to run a javascript, vbscript, Adobe ExtendScript,
> AppleScript, etc., and return values to variables (called SmartNames in
> AE), and continue doing stuff.  So, it depends on the approach I guess.  If
> the UI could be used to link screens (cards or stacks), and house the logic
> of when to show them and what visual effects, etc. but also allow fully
> scriptable LiveCode objects, it might allow a novice the ability to "ease
> into" programming, or the expert the ability to get a UI built more
> efficiently.
>
> ~Roger
>
>
>
> Roger EllerGraphics Systems Analyst
>
> 803 North Maple StreetP: 864.967.1625Simpsonville, SC 29681C: 864.908.0337
> SealedAir.com <http://www.sealedair.com/>Roger.E.Eller at SealedAir.com
> <roger.e.eller at sealedair.com>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Scott Rossi <scott at tactilemedia.com>
> wrote:
>
> > This kind of visual drag-and-drop programming UI has been done (and will
> > continue to be done) for decades, and works pretty well for simple logic.
> > The whole "build without writing code" concept is pretty big right now.
> > But visual programming becomes unwieldy and difficult to follow when
> logic
> > gets complex.  And it's unlikely that a visual interface could handle all
> > the options provided by the LiveCode language.  But for simple projects,
> > this could be useful for beginners, or when quickly building a stack.
> >
> > Apple's Automator has worked this way for years now, and Audio Hijack on
> > OS X is another app that recently employed a visual UI:
> > https://www.rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Scott Rossi
> > Creative Director
> > Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/19/15, 5:20 AM, "Roger Eller" <roger.e.eller at sealedair.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Speaking of workflows, we use a product called Automation Engine in our
> > >prepress shop.  You may not think "programming" when you hear the word
> > >"prepress", but with AE, that is exactly what it is.  We take business
> > >logic, and map it to tasks, loops, forks, file io, error handlers, etc.
> > >with a graphical workflow editor.  Tasks are listed on the right, which
> > >you
> > >drag onto the workspace and arrange and connect them.  Each task has
> > >properties you set by double-clicking to open a panel.  This would be a
> > >slick way to build, or at least connect LC objects to their
> > >inputs/outputs/errors.  Have a look at this short video.  Ignore the
> stuff
> > >about artwork QC.
> > >
> > >I think a "modern" editor should be something like this... not VB6.
> > >
> > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbnaqbH5QK8
> > >
> > >~Roger
> > >On Aug 19, 2015 1:31 AM, "Richard Gaskin" <ambassador at fourthworld.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> Richmond wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > My main 'beef' with an IDE of the VB6 type is that it blocks the
> > >> > desktop from view and doesn't seem good if one wants to rearrange
> > >> > where one's palettes sit on the screen.
> > >> >
> > >> > Things might prove a bit awkward if one wants to make a stack as
> > >> > big as one's desktop if one cannot shunt palettes around and about.
> > >> >
> > >> > Of course this is all about taste (meaning it's all in the mouth)
> > >> > so it would seem best, if an all-in-one IDE like the VB6 one is
> > >> > to be introduced to have it as one of 2 options.
> > >>
> > >> I believe it's more than about taste with LiveCode, it's about
> workflow.
> > >>
> > >> LiveCode isn't like other languages, where working with controls is
> > >>little
> > >> more than a drawing program because nothing there is LIVE CODE.
> > >>
> > >> For us, it's less like building an app inside of an IDE as it is
> running
> > >> an IDE along side our apps.  Our windows are separate because they're
> > >>real
> > >> windows, not just inert proxies.
> > >>
> > >> I went into this in greater detail a couple months back:
> > >> <http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2015-May/214703.html>
> > >>
> > >> The Viewer widget needed for that UI will be very nice for us, but I
> > >>fear
> > >> making an IDE based around it, as it would no longer be truly LIVE
> CODE.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>  Richard Gaskin
> > >>  Fourth World Systems
> > >>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> > >>  ____________________________________________________________________
> > >>  Ambassador at FourthWorld.com                http://www.FourthWorld.com
> > >>
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