'Community Beta' has lost its way [any part]

[Scott Kane]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bernard Devlin" <revolution at knowledgeworks.plus.com>
To: <use-revolution at lists.runrev.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: 'Community Beta' has lost its way [any part]


> Well, Scott.  Thanks for sharing your experience of development 
> environments with us.  How sad that you think you will be flamed.  I 
> certainly don't want this to be a flame-fest.  I want to improve the  way 
> that Rev works.

I suspect you missed the point of the list.  It's not about me it's about 
the tools.  AFA flaming goes - it's a joke that may have been obscure, 
though anybody who knows me on Usenet would probably get it.

> I too have a wide experience of development tools - I have a degree in CS 
> and I first started programming in Fortran on mainframes in  1980.

I did not intend this to be a "look at me" exercise.  I did not start in 
Fortran on mainframes in 1980.  I started in machine code (that and direct 
hex entry) in 1986 on the now gone National Semi-Conductor Datachecker DTS 
500 series terminals.  Before that I admit to use BASIC.   The point of the 
list was to show software that has bugs by *****huge**** companies and in 
one case from version 2 - 10 the same bugs exist.

<sigh>  Nothing like a developer to get all upity with the old ego.

>And for some tasks I choose Revolution, for others Python, for  others 
>Java.  When I decide that Rev is not the appropriate tool, I  use a tool 
>that is more appropriate.   For some things Rev is the only tool I 
>currently have that will do the job.

Which is pretty much what I was saying..........................

> That's not quite true.  Hence my accusation that the Community Beta has 
> lost its way.

No my statement is absolutely true of any development company who intends to 
stay in business.

> I have been a member of this list for about 4 or 5 years, and I am  NOT 
> one of the people who has ranted on and on about bugs.   In fact,  the 
> last time I posted anything as long as this to the list, it was  to object 
> to someone who moaned endlessly about bugs, but wouldn't  even bother to 
> log them in Bugzilla.

Well you have two years seniority on this list to me.  But that does not 
alter one bit the fact that it is bad form to dis' a company on a public 
email list.  If I can put it this way - on forums I run I've banned posters 
for less.  I have no influence here - but it illustrates how I feel about 
angry missives that accuse companies of henious crimes with very little if 
any justrification.

> Over the years I have experienced minor bugs in Rev - they have been 
> irritations but almost without exception I've been able to work round 
> them, and I wouldn't say that Rev has noticeably more bugs than any other 
> development tool I use.   I have Studio licenses for OS X,  Windows and 
> Linux, paid up for the next 2 years in advance.   Unlike  Runrev's Quality 
> Control Partner, I do NOT think that the way to get  Runrev to fix bugs is 
> to starve them of funds.

Another side swipe at Rev.  I can't see what part of "disrespect" you don't 
get.  I made a couple of spelling errors in my post (darn schpell chezcker) 
but I think the content was clear enough.

> The Open Community Beta was announced with great fanfare, and I  publicly 
> welcomed it.  It led me to expect that some long-standing  bug-reports 
> that I had been waiting to be fixed would finally receive  treatment.  I 
> patiently waited throughout the Open Community Beta,  only to find that my 
> most important blocking bug has been deemed not  important enough, and it 
> was probably bumped out by the introduction  of the Altuit products, which 
> already existed (and many of us --  including me -- already owned licenses 
> to them).

But is the public list the right place?  That is the thrust of my missive. 
I believe the name of this list is "How To Use Revolution".  Nowhere in the 
title have I seen "How to moan about Revolution".  I'm simply stating that 
this is not the right place.  On top of that I'm stating that it's 
unrealistic to expect any development company to fix every issue every user 
wants fixed, whether you are coding in Fortran on a mainframe or on a 
PC/Mac.

> When something in Rev has not worked for four years, but has been  shown 
> to be a bug, and I cannot work round it, what am I supposed to  do?  I can 
> guarantee that if there was an ancient bug in Rev that  stopped your 2 
> year project, and that bug had been shunted out of the  way, you would be 
> much less sanguine.  Or maybe not - you have   multiple GUI toolkits to 
> choose from.  I don't - Rev is my only GUI  toolkit.

I believe the channel has been pointed out to you, yet you still keep on 
about it here - tonight.  Hence my post.

> I think you mean "Respect is earned and RunRev have certainly earned  MY 
> respect."

No.  I wrote what I meant.

>You have some special individual circumstances that  endear them to you. 
>The fact that you allude to this shows that  really you know that you are 
>in some kind of special relationship  with them.  Clearly for you, they are 
>doing something right.   I  could mention the names of several long-time 
>Rev/Metacard developers  who want the absolute minimum to do with Runrev 
>the company.   And  then there are the other users who have slipped away 
>more silently.

Absolute total and complete rubbish.  I have no special relationship with 
anybody in RunRev.  In fact I have no special relationship with anybody in 
the RunRev community.  My point is this is a decent company and they are 
being treated indecently by you with your continued posts on this subject to 
this list.  It's pretty simple really.

> I'm suggesting to Runrev that they stop doing something that is wrong.

Maybe - but this is not the right forum.

> Sometimes an organisation has to be publicly shamed before something  is 
> done.

Oh right!  Yeah - that makes sense!  <ROFL >

> But thanks for the insult anyway (maybe that's why you're  expecting a 
> flame fest).

It's not actually an insult.  It's basic decency and what used to be termed 
good manners.

>My previous private communications with  Runrev are precisely what has led 
>me to have so little respect for  them and their ability to set 
>expectations.

And again a public list is not the place for it.  Even more so when it is 
after all their list.

>And in  case you haven't  been paying attention - bug 3196 had received NO 
>attention until I  made this more generalized critique.  If there had been 
>any feedback from Runrev at all during the last 6 months about which severe 
>bugs  they were deciding to ignore, I may have decided some months back to 
>look into alternative tools.  I specifically recommended they do this  so 
>that people would have an idea of what to expect from this Beta.

I would not call the bug you are referring to as necessary severe in terms 
of what most developers are doing with Rev.  While I do acknowledge it may 
be severe for what *you* are doing with the product.  We clearly are not 
going to see eye to eye on this however my main point is complex software 
has holes - this email list is not the place to use those holes as a weapon 
in a fit or rage, frustration or any other emotion.  It's for helping 
people - and most people here do just that.  Other issues should be directed 
to RR themselves - especially when they are somewhat heated in their content 
(i,e, accusatory)

> Anyway, I'm not going to waste any more time on this.  I've learned  the 
> hard way to set my own expectations of Runrev, and sadly they are 
> decidedly lower than they were 6 months ago.

I'd have to say, from what I've seen on this list, that you may well be in 
the minority in this....


Scott Kane
"There are two ways of being deceived.  One is to believe that which is not
true.  The other is to not believe that which is true." Søren Aabye
Kierkegaard