alternative ways to make projects come true (was Re: Game Developers -- Call)

[Andre Garzia]

Rick at al,

much been said on this topic and the positive side is that although  
we all have our own views of things, we can actually work together.  
One thing that Rick said that caught my attention is that some of us  
have projects that could use more help, that sometimes, that nice  
project just need a pair of extra hands. We don't always have the  
means to pay the market value of the coding hours needed, others  
would also be keen on donating time if there was even the tinyiest  
money amount in it (people might code a routine for 10 USD in 10  
minutes but not do it for free). I am now changing this topic so that  
we might discuss alternative ways to make projects reach the real world.

What do people here think of bounties? Bounties are for example  
integral parts os Haiku OS, Amiga OS and Morph OS development. Some  
may say that those are toy hobby operating system, but hey, there are  
users and coders there and the bountie system creates a kind of micro  
economy system that enables them to move forward. MorphOS network  
stack was done by bountie. The way bounties usually works is, some  
one set a "fund" for a given bounty saying what is the task and who  
will be eligible to collect such bounty and what are the terms. Then  
people who need or like that bounty pour money on it. When someone  
complete the bounty, it receives the money. Most used system for the  
money transfers is PayPal. For example in Amiga OS there's the  
AmiZilla bounty which will be given to the first one to build a  
firefox stable version for that OS (or KHTML based), the bounty is  
now with 3 thousand USD. We know that bounties might not be the  
market price, but someone might just be needing the money.

It's like bugzilla, but with some money, when it is completed, the  
winner receives it. Some people here might be wanting a SOAP library  
but they cannot write themselves and cannot hire a full time coder to  
build it, but they might gather a group, each pour couple bucks and  
they say that the first SOAP transcript based lib will win the bounty  
and that the code will be released to all in a BSD license. The whole  
community benefits, the group that needed it is benefited by actually  
having it available and the coder that received the bucks will also  
be happy.

As Rick said, this can drive the pay of the programmer down since  
there will always be someone willing to do it for a lower price but  
this might also be the only way to achieve some projects since not  
every coder out there can work for free. For example, you're an  
inventive user or someone that is not very network or xml savvy but  
you just want to use Amazon S3 from your project, you cannot build it  
yourself as fast as you'd want but you decided that such tool is  
worth don't know maybe $45, you might share those needs with other  
users and that amount could get higher... it would take less than a  
day for an experienced coder to implement the Amazon S3 service, he  
could end up winning your $45 for a couple hours work, this is  
probably not his prime sallary rate but how is that for a saturday  
morning work... If you live in Brazil where $45 == $100 of my money,  
then this even more attractive.

What would be other options besides bounty. I am just trying to move  
this topic onto a different conversation...

Cheers
andre





On Jul 15, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Rick Harrison wrote:

>
> On Jul 15, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:
>
>> Rick,
>>
>> it is not about flames, many times here, I was replying to some  
>> one pointing them on some very different direction than the one  
>> their we're going and yet, we can always be nice. Be honest is one  
>> thing, but you can always write your email in a more polite way.  
>> You don't call other peoples projects and ideas joke on public  
>> lists just because you fell that they are a joke.  Or if you want  
>> to call it that way, you send it as a private email.
>
> Andre,
>
> I was not referring to you or your comments personally at all.
>
> Sometimes being nice and politically correct all the time fails to  
> make the point.
>
> What caught my attention was that someone was asking for the Moon  
> and the Stars,
> and offering to pay very little in return for those qualifications.
>
> I said nothing about their idea, or project being a joke.  I was  
> discussing their
> extraordinarily high expectations of the quality of candidate they  
> were looking to get
> for the little money they were willing to pay.
>
> It is also a bit of a long shot to ask for all of those  
> qualifications, lack of pay, and
> also to have an interest in Hindu ideology.  An extremely tall  
> order for most people.
>
> I didn't send it as a private email because there are a few on this  
> list who could use
> a reminder about how much one should expect in the way of  
> qualifications when
> paying for programming services.  You could have responded to me  
> privately as well.
> I know you have my email address.  Any future responses you can  
> please direct to me
> offline.
>
>>
>> I am working for the Kauai Hindu Monastery, I am sure many on this  
>> list would not have accepted the same contract I did accept but I  
>> am having the best moment of my life working with them. Its a very  
>> inspiring thing to see your work actually helping people out  
>> there, not only making money but actually making people live  
>> better. I am not saying that you were wrong but that there are  
>> multiple ways of looking into something, no one holds all the  
>> truth in their hands.
>>
>
> It's nice of you to donate your work to a cause you believe in, if  
> you like working for little or no pay that is your business.
>
> However, if you are charging below market rates, remember that you  
> are potentially dragging down the rest of us
> who still need to eat and keep a roof over our heads.  Places like  
> Froogle, eBay, and eLance are actually dragging down
> profit margins worldwide.  As a friend of mine put it, "eBay is a  
> place where buyers are looking for stupid sellers, and sellers
> are looking for stupid buyers".  The whole world economy is based  
> on ignorance of prices and the true value of products or services.
> Now that everyone in the world can go to Froogle to find the best  
> price for any item, it drags everyone else trying to sell that
> same item down to that lowest price, the result is that profit  
> margins are disappearing.  When profit margins get too low it
> for a product it is no longer worth making or selling that product.
>
> Here is another example, there is a friend of mine who already has  
> a full-time job working for a company.   Since he is doing this
> his other business on the side, he wants to help people out from  
> the good of his heart and charges only 1/5th the market price
> per hour for the same job.  He isn't concerned at all for himself  
> because he has his other job keeping him afloat, but he is
> damaging all the similar businesses in this area.  His unfair  
> competition is putting them out of business!  He isn't considering
> the damage he is doing to his own local economy by charging prices  
> way below market value.  (But I digress.)
>
> I never claimed to hold all the truth in my hands.  Of course you  
> don't qualify for that either, so that statement is a wash.
>
>> I am sure you're talking honest and that many will think just like  
>> you and that is not wrong but someone on this list might want to  
>> enter such project not all for the money but for something else  
>> too and then a very nice game might emerge, I'd give all my help  
>> to see such project fruit.
>
> Like I said, if you want to just give your talent away for free  
> that is your business.  I actually have several very heavy projects of
> great value that could use your free time and efforts which would  
> make you feel just fantastic because you'd be helping out the
> world!
>
>>
>> I've seen more than one small-no-budget-for-you project rise and  
>> get the big bucks, this happened because the people who worked on  
>> it were passionate about it and then reward came. Remember it's a  
>> game about Hindu concepts, Hinduism has a very huge following and  
>> it also may appeals to other crowds such as new age people or if  
>> the game is fun enough, to gamers in general. Knowing the works of  
>> the monks in Kauai, their magazines and books and how far they can  
>> reach, knowing that computers and games are very popular in asia  
>> and in america (where you have many many Hindus), I am sure such  
>> project could soar.
>
> I've seen a lot of shareware and small no budget projects go  
> completely to waste, and never earn any money to speak of.  The big  
> bucks ones
> are usually the rare exceptions.  I was not referring to the  
> subject matter of their game at all in my comments, just candidate  
> expectations and pay.
>
> Perhaps I've just seen too many examples of programmers who took a  
> lot of abuse from managers that they never should have in the past  
> and that
> has colored my view of the programming world.  I've met more people  
> in my line of work who think that programmers should just give them  
> hours and hours of blood, sweat, and tears without ever  
> compensating them properly.  There are also a lot of managers that  
> have never programmed one line of code, but yet believe that code  
> should just magically appear in front of them after 2 minutes of  
> programming time has elapsed.  They suffer from the "Is it done  
> yet?" syndrome.  I've met others who think that because you work  
> with computers, it means that you must therefore know everything  
> there is to know about all computers, and all software programs  
> that exist in the entire world.
>
> I really believe in the hard work that programmers do with  
> Revolution and other computer languages.  I also believe strongly  
> that they should be
> adequately compensated for their efforts with at least fair market  
> value pay for their respective areas of the world.  Programming  
> authors who have written
> 20 games know all about Versiontracker, Tucows, and other  
> distribution points for their software.  They are probably so  
> successful at that level
> that it would be highly unlikely for them to want to work on a game  
> which promises little pay for their efforts.
>
> Oh, and just to state some of my other beliefs a little more  
> clearly, Music is not free just because one can download it and  
> duplicate it.
> Likewise software is not free just because one can download it and  
> duplicate it.  These things are only free if the author or creator
> of the work states specifically that the work is free.  Otherwise,  
> you must pay for these creations.
>
>>
>> Don't mistake them for amateurs, they were coding and doing  
>> computer projects and dtp since a very long time. They may be  
>> naive about game markets, but if they trully want to make this  
>> game, I am sure it will reach far.
>
> I was trying to get them to pull back on their extra high  
> expectations.  Anyone who has 20 games out on the market with all  
> of the rest of the
> qualifications listed will not work for them for peanuts.  I was  
> not trying to discourage them on their project.
>
>>
>> PS: ... the side effect of working with Monks who are also a  
>> publishing house is that you learn much, not only talking to them  
>> but reading them, nothing beats walking besides Sivakatirswami  
>> listening him explaining what is karma!
>>
>> Cheers
>> Andre
>
> Please contact me off list for any further comments.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 14, 2006, at 7:47 PM, Rick Harrison wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, I couldn't sound nicer about this.  I'm sure I'll get  
>>> flamed for just trying to be honest.
>>
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