On the Democratic Operation of Bugzilla

[Garrett Hylltun]

On Feb 23, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Rob Cozens wrote:

> Garrett, Dan, Jim, et al:

[snip]

> What is the world coming to when users complain when the company  
> that provides them a product gives them input in determining where  
> resources should be spent on maintaining and updating that product?

Aiding in the direction of the product is one thing.

> Runtime Revolution Ltd. gives every user of its product an  
> opportunity to influence the decision on how limited R&D and  
> Support resources are allocated.

This is something I don't understand..... You say "limited R&D" which  
I don't see.  Not with the prices of the products being offered.   
I've seen smaller companies with products under 100 USD handle these  
things far better.  If Runtime has a problem with finances that they  
are not capable of handling these issues on their own, then there is  
something wrong going on within the company.

This is not about influencing the direction of the product.  This is  
about how bug reports should be directly given to the company, the  
company should track it internally and insure that it's taken care  
of.  Users should not have to do anything else, that's why they pay  
Runtime for the product.

> I doubt that you can name many other products you use whose  
> manufacturer give you that same opportunity.

Visual DialogScript, PureBasic are two that come to mind  
immediately.  I assure you I can probably compile a list of products  
that far exceed your imagination.  But again, you are talking of  
another animal completely.  All companies are happy to listen to  
their customers with regards to the direction of the product, but  
none of them ask the customers to help them find their bugs and keep  
track of them.  Even open source and freeware products don't ask of  
this.  Gambas is one that fits here.

> Is there some better means of making that determination than asking  
> the people who use the product?  Market survey? Ouija Board?

Again, this is about bugs and how Rev is to take care of them, not  
the users.  Give direction for the product future is a different story.

> Especially a product like RunRev, which appeals to such a broad  
> range of uses and users.  Given the documented errors and  
> enhancement requests, how does one decide where to focus time and  
> resources.  If each RR user complied a personal bug fix/enhancement  
> request list, to what degree would those lists overlap?  How many  
> users would prefer my list to yours, and vice versa?

What good are enhancements if the bugs are not fixed?

> If you were in charge of RR development, wouldn't you like to spend  
> your resources on areas of relatively high importance to a  
> relatively large proportion of users?  How do you ascertain that  
> without asking users?

Fixing bugs is highly important!

And if I were involved directly with the company, I would have  
insured that all bugs were taken care of before upgrading the  
product.  I probably would have fired the alpha testing team and the  
beta testing team, as well as the person who's let the product go to  
market knowing there were unfixed bugs in it.

> Jim begins "I don't use Bug or Revzilla." and ends "Bugzilla is not  
> useful for me."  Dan writes "I'd be all for making Bugzilla far  
> more useful. I even have some ideas
> for how to do that. But frankly that's up to RunRev, not the
> community,"

Jim shouldn't have to be concerned about any 'zilla.  He should be  
concerned with using his product and being happy with it.

> I see it the other way around.  RR has offered its user community  
> an opportunity to influence resource allocation and bug tracking;  
> but it can't work without the participation of that user community.

Something the community really has no business being involved with.   
That's the job of the company providing the product.  If I wanted to  
be a part of their process, I would have asked for a job there or  
bought stock in their company or something.  I bought a product that  
I thought was a stable product, something I could use and not have to  
waste time with following up on a 'zilla system to see what bugs are  
listed, fixed, ignored, voted on, rated etc.  It's absurd that a user  
would have to deal with this.  Taking part in where a company puts  
forth it's time and resources is up to the company and users  
shouldn't have to deal with this.  I didn't pay hundreds of USD for  
this!  Then I'm expected to pay for bug fixes that I had no hand in  
creating in the first place?  I'll pay for enhancements, but tossing  
in enhancements in updates is not fair play at all, and asking users  
to pay for updates that fix the companies own mistakes is just  
wrong.  Upgrades, sure, but not updates.  Asking users to be more  
involved in the bug reporting system is asking too much for such an  
expensive product.

I guess I'm not specifically upset with the bug issue, but with  
several issues.  My views of how things should be are not that of the  
majority.  I can be extreme in my views about products should be free  
of bugs and such.  And usually "you get what you pay for" holds true,  
but I'm feeling cheated here.  Typically if you pay hundreds, you get  
a sold product, and I don't see that now.  And I see a company that  
may or may not have some of it's own internal management and priority  
issues.

You know, I paid only $69 USD for PureBasic and they work hard to fix  
any and all bugs pointed out to them.  One day I posted a bug to  
their forum, and two days later a fix was available for download.   
And I don't pay for updates and upgrades.  And then I sit here and  
wonder why I paid so much money for Rev.

Well, I should stop.  My participation in this subject probably has  
been less than productive to everyone on this list, and Runtime  
itself.  I'm not a bad fellow, but I can get really upset with some  
things.  So my apologies to all and I will not reply to this subject  
unless specifically invited to return to the subject.  Otherwise, if  
anyone wishes to further this subject with me directly, feel free to  
email me at garretthylltun at hotmail.com

-Garrett