[Ticket#: 2006040510000641] Re: [OT] Articles to read

[David Burgun]

On 9 Apr 2006, at 00:07, Garrett Hylltun wrote:

> I'm sure you're right though, I'm sure were not being singled out  
> for something derogatory.  It's obvious the intent, which had  
> nothing to do with you.  Which adds to your puzzling reply on this.
>
> Almost all those names that were listed are the people who are most  
> helpful.  Granted, some of them participate in what I call "ego- 
> chatter", but even with that, that list represents a lot of good  
> people and I would have assumed that anyone listed would have  
> actually felt complimented by that.

I totally agree with this, it's one of the best lists I've ever been  
involved with.

I get wound up by things that I feel are letting RunRev as a concept/ 
product down, however, I still use it and I want it to be better, and  
there is no doubt that is has got better over the 2+ years I have  
been using it. For that I say "thanks and well done". However when  
you have worked in the industry as long as I have, you are bound to  
see mistakes that companies have made over the years, having been  
involved with projects/products that, lets say, didn't reach their  
full potential and were replaced with products that were inferior in  
concept, simply because of bad documentation and buggy interfaces.

Once you understand the separation of the engine and the IDE in  
RunRev, you can see that the concept of the engine and all it's cool  
features is sound. However, when a new user evaluates RunRev, unless  
they understand xTalk, they don't immediately see this separation and  
assume that IDE bugs are part and parcel of the whole thing, and in a  
way they are right.

One of the major problems I face when trying to get RunRev accepted  
in a traditional software development department is that of  
credibility, the first thing the engineer or manager sees is the IDE.  
The thing that I can sell RunRev on is the speed and flexibility of  
programming, in order to do that, I usually write an application or  
part of an application of medium complexity right in front in them. I  
then usually leave the stack(s) with them and tell them to download  
an evaluation copy of RunRev and play with it on their own machine.  
This is the only real way I have found for getting that "wow" factor,  
if I get the wow, I an 99% of the way there. If I don't get it, then  
I'm usually out the door.

The problem with having lots of silly little bugs in the most visible  
of places is that a newbie or someone that is skeptical of the claims  
you have made for the system immediately have their suspicions  
confirmed (or so they think). The real fact of the matter is that  
even with all the silly little bugs in the IDE it's still way faster  
then developing in other languages/environments. I would say  
typically I lose about an hour a day due to these problems, but I  
used to lose longer. I suppose I will eventually lose less time, but  
that's not really the point. I have had a history of using xTalk like  
languages, like SNOBOL4 and SPITBOL and know the underlying power and  
the type of results you can achieve in a relatively small period of  
time, so I am willing to be patient and try to work around the  
problems. Once in while I "give out" about having to put up with it  
and that's about it. However, I really don't think I am the typical  
engineer and to them a buggy IDE to a sign of a "dodgy" product,  
especially if they know that the IDE is coded in TranScript. It's as  
someone else said, well if the makers of the product can't make it  
work properly, what chance have we?

As for bug free pieces of software, take a look at SNOBOL4 and  
SPLITBOL these languages/environments are more powerful and complex  
compared to TranScript in their own way. They run on more platforms  
than RunRev and they are an example of software that is 99.999999%  
bug free including the documentation. The main difference is that  
they don't support a GUI.

I really don't think that the problems I have mentioned are being  
experienced by just myself or to my configuration. I have seen these  
on different versions of RunRev running on different machines and on  
different platforms.

I'm not having a personal dig at anyone, bitching for the sake or it  
or trying to be awkward in any way. The only reason I bring them up  
every now and then to try to get something done about it. The fact  
that people are venting the way they are at the moment is a sign that  
something aught to be done to resolve at least some of these issues.

All the Best
Dave