[OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]

Bob Hutchison hutch at recursive.ca
Fri Dec 2 09:08:05 EST 2005


Hi Bill,

On Dec 2, 2005, at 6:41 AM, Bill Marriott wrote:

> I said nothing about the *content* of the mailing list, or the  
> participants!

For what it's worth, I, for one, didn't think you had.

>
> Obviously it's a great resource. This is the "official" mailing  
> list -- you can't go anywhere else for that -- and I simply think  
> it's cumbersome. My opinion is it should migrate toward a more  
> attractive and accessible presentation. Just one little thing that  
> could make Rev more "popular."
>
> If you think the forum is as good as it is "because" it's in this  
> format --  if you think this is somehow the "ideal" -- that's one  
> thing.

This is *exactly* what I think.

> But I think it is this way "in spite of" the format. For example,
>
> - I made my post completely oblivious that Kevin Miller had weighed  
> in, because I received the digest with his post *after* I made  
> mine. This is not "real-time."

There's your first problem, it is a mailing list so don't use  
digests. Filters, threading, keeping fragments of threads, and  
discontinuities in the flow of conversation results directly from  
digests. The way to go is individual email messages...

> - If you look at the list archive, you see that this thread (and  
> most others) are broken up into dozens of pieces so that it's quite  
> hard to follow who is responding to what.

...read in a configurable email reader that, especially handles  
threaded mail conversations...

> - On days when there is high traffic, you get a *lot* of email.  
> This has resulted in me filtering the Use-Revolution list into a  
> folder, which results in reading it less often.

...and folders. Folders are a good thing.

The thing is that with a mailing list I can read them using a tool  
that *I* control and can make look and behave as *I* like. You don't  
have to worry about what I like, and I don't have to worry about what  
you like. As you can see this is a problem worth avoiding :-)

The only better solution to this is NNTP. Unfortunately, USENET is  
pretty much dead because of spam and finding a good news reader these  
days is hard (actually, some ISPs are no longer supporting NNTP).  
BTW, if you are on windows, check out Agent <http://www.forteinc.com/ 
agent/index.php> if you want to see what I think is a fabulous mail/ 
news reader (they combine the two)... I wish this was available on  
the Mac.

The problem with web based forums is a) their functionality sucks  
(yes, this is my opinion, and that's the point); and, b) you have to  
go to them. Going to something is fundamentally the wrong way about.  
This is why email, news (despite the spam), and weblogs are either so  
entrenched or such active areas of development.

The trouble, currently, with weblogs, is that they are still hard to  
find, conversations are difficult (because of spam most weblogs have  
disabled the functionality necessary to support conversations), and  
there is no good way to keep track of interesting posts (and forget  
about searching them). These things will change over time. When I  
have a weblog reader as flexible as my email reader then we'll have  
something interesting.

>
> Also, I feel the "well if you don't like it go somewhere else" type  
> of feedback is less than mature or constructive, and quite  
> defensive-sounding. Why stop with point #12? If I want 3D, why  
> don't I use Director? If I want database tools, why not use  
> FileMaker? If I want a slicker IDE, why not use Visual Studio?  
> etc.? (It's a wonder they let ungrateful cads like me even *use*  
> Revolution!)

I didn't read Mark's comment the way you did.

>
> I thought the question was a valid one and I gave my honest opinion.

I agree that your point is a valid one, and so is your opinion. But  
you are wrong :-) Sort of...

The functionality supported by NNTP/USENET/news (email is SMTP, the  
web is HTTP -- for you folks who don't follow this stuff, all these  
are *very* closely related internet protocols) is what forums are  
trying to re-create. If you like forums you'll love a good news  
reader. The trouble with forums is that it gets it backwards and, on  
top of that, have all the same problems as weblogs.

Now I say USENET is dead because of spam. This isn't precisely true  
of course. In fact, there are a couple of examples of on-line  
community that depend on USENET: lisp and ruby. The hottest old thing  
in programming and the hottest new thing in programming. Ruby has a  
gateway to a mailing list, and lisp, well, they've got 50 years of  
history and won't budge on this issue :-)

Anyway, I'm way off topic.

Cheers,
Bob

>
> Bill
>
> |> 12) The discussion list. I think we're well beyond the days when  
> an email
> |> list is the ideal way to go. Why can't we have a nice, phpBB- or
> |> vBulletin-based board where threads are kept nicely organized,  
> etc.? Again,
> |> the community support like other aspects is like living ten  
> years in the
> |> past. (These boards still allow for receiving digests in email,  
> and/or
> |> subscribing to threads.)
> |
> |Why don't you just sign onto one of the existing boards then?
> |Personally I find this list much more useful and informative than any
> |of the boards I've seen, but if that's your preference then go for  
> it.
> |
> |-- |-Mark Wieder
> | mwieder at ahsoftware.net
>
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----
Bob Hutchison          -- blogs at <http://www.recursive.ca/hutch/>
Recursive Design Inc.  -- <http://www.recursive.ca/>
Raconteur              -- <http://www.raconteur.info/>





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