OSX GUI Manipulation?

[bfr at nwlink.com]

> bfr at nwlink.com wrote:
>
>>>The post I replied to mentioned only BASIC and FaceSpan, both of which
>>>use AppleScript for controlling other apps, as does Rev.
>>
>> You are mistaken.
>>
>> Facespan, in versions prior to 4.0, had "click as user" and "type as
>> user"
>> and "do menu" commands. I used those commands, in applications I built
>> and
>> sold, to control the behavior of unscriptable applications by
>> controlling
>> them through manipulaton of their GUI.
>>
>> The programming language of FaceSpan is applescript, and so for those
>> applications (or those actions) that WERE scriptable, Facespan could in
>> fact send applescript commands to the applications.
>
> Right, the programming language of FaceSpan is AppleScript. On which
> part of that was I mistaken?
>
>> Well I thought I made it quite clear that automating other applications
>> is
>> the whole point of my question.
>
> That was clear.  What do you want to do that AppleScript doesn't support?
>
>> I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Yes, iKey can do
>> exactly what I want. I can create and edit automation task sequences in
>> iKey's macro language. Then I can use applescript to trigger those
>> stored macro commands.
>
> Sounds like you have a good solution.

Well, that is a solution that will require all my solution-buyers to buy
iKey or Quickeys; or requires me to work a deal to bundle iKey or
Quickeys. I don't want to do that. I want the OSX equivalent of FaceSpan.
Facespan 4 does not have the added app-control features that existed in
3.x.

>>>In an earlier post you made reference to the System Events application.
>>> If you open that app's dictionary with AppleScript Editor you'll find
>>>an extensive variety of AppleScriptable goodies.
>>
>> And if you *actually try* using those commands, you will find out that
>> they do not work on some applications. If they did, there would be no
>> need for iKey or Quickeys.
>
> I'm straying off topic here, but I think QuickKeys offers a strong value
> even if scriptable solutions become available.
>
> QuickKeys is to inter-process communication what Rev is to GUI
> development:  a high-level (and kinda fun) way to solve a low-level
> problem.
>
> Even if Apple fixes their System Events, not everyone wants to script
> when there are robust point-and-click alternatives like QuickKeys.  It's
> a useful product.

See above. What you are suggesting means I have to bundle Quickeys with my
solution.

>> But System Events commands do not work on some applications.
>  > This is a known problem and is discussed on related lists.
>
> Has it been addressed on lists where Apple may be able to fix it?

Developers can obfuscate their controls or use non standard controls. It
may not be something that Apple can fix.

> I've had no need to script with System Events myself (my job requires me
> to avoid platform-specific technologies where possible).  What's Apple's
> timeline for fixing their System Events?
>
>>>AppleScript is the Apple-sanctioned method for implementing
>>>inter-process communication.  Rev can run AppleScript.
>>
>> You are missing the whole point here.
>>
>> I know very well what applescript can do when communicating with
>> scriptable applications. It can do what those scriptable apps allow it
>> to
>> do. But frequently there are actions that are not available in the
>> dictionary of the target app. In such cases you need to manipulate the
>> app through its GUI.
>>
>> So you look for tools that make scripted GUI manipulation possible.
>> Those tools include iKey and Quickeys; and in pre-X Mac, Facespan.
>> I am trying to find out if Rev has these features. Apparently it
>> does not.
>
> I know of only two ways to control other apps:  AppleScript, as we've
> been discussing, and system-level APIs which will let you hook into the
>  event mechanism.
>
> Rev supports AppleScript, and Rev supports an interface to allow you to
> write externals to communicate between Transcript and OS APIs.
>
> What do you want to do that is not covered by these?  What third
> mechanism is iKey using?

The same mechanism Quickeys is using I would expect. They are both poking
around in the undocumented features of the OS and of other applications.