Documentation & Books

Judy Perry jperryl at ecs.fullerton.edu
Tue Jul 6 14:33:16 EDT 2004


Chipp,

My comments are directed less at Dan's book than with what I perceived to
have been an exasperated response to what he may see as lazy learners (the
'you gotta dig' comment).  Some people aren't lazy, they're merely
clueless (jumping up and down, waving hands wildly) @;-)

I've bought Dan's book.  I've followed his suggestion to ditch a textbook
in my class in favor of making students' money available to purchase a Rev
license (maybe 4 or 5 actually do).  And, FWIW, the majority of my
students are 3rd and 4th year CS majors who STILL find the documentation
unusable (yes, they're partly lazy; but they're also partly clueless as
they've never used anything like this model at all and just don't know
where to start).  An index -- to both Rev's documents and Dan's book --
would be a huge improvement (online search facilities only help if you
know what you are looking for; if you already are familiar with the
terminology).

Some people at some point are likely to find Rev and want to use it and
know diddly-squat about programming period.  Imagine how they would feel
upon reading such a comment -- as helpful as people are onlist, do you
think that comment would inspire them to ask for help?  I kinda doubt it.

> I think you have a different perception of novice programmers than I,
> (and probably Dan as well). I think Dan and myself (and perhaps RunRev
> for that matter) think of novice programmers as 'inventive users.' These
> are individuals which may not understand the language, but have the
> necessary computer experiences and motivation to know what to dig for
> (solutions to their questions), and how to ask relevant questions.

I would respectfully disagree.  While novice programmers CAN be inventive
users, they might just be people who have this vague idea that a tool can
help them make things but have no idea where to start.

>
> Or-- on the other hand, existing programmers using other languages which
> only need to learn more syntax to be able to use Transcript.

True enough, but recall that we recently had a 'seasoned' C programmer who
required not fewer than FIVE emails to the list to figure out how to
program a simple tabbed button.  I think at some point he literally had to
draw us a picture...

> As I understand it, you are teaching computer language to first time
> users who are in neither camp above. I don't think Dan's mission was to
> provide a book to teach basic computer science concepts, which IMO, has
> to be taught along with a beginning CS class.

I think Rev's model is sufficiently visual and high-level so as to not
explicitly require basic CS knowledge.  For it to succeed in K-12, this
MUST be the case.

> I take it you're pointing out Dan's book hasn't an index? (PDF that is).
> I think the printed version does. In any case, there is a great Search
> tool for the online documentation inside RR. Not to mention, this list
> seems willing and able to answer any questions.

Yes, I can see I wasn't overly obtuse regarding this comment @;-)  An
index is still absolutely necessary. (Isn't it not overwhelmingly
difficult to do in Word?? I'm thinking myself of getting the RTF version
of the docs and trying to build my own... perhaps I'll find out it's
significantly less than trivial).

> I am glad Dan's taken the time to write a book for Transcript. I believe
> Dan's return on investment for this book is probably very slim, if it
> all. Difficult to attract more writers w/out a large market.

I am glad as well.  OTOH, how many other communities are willing to shell
out for vols 2 & 3 not knowing when/if they will arrive?  I'm not overly
peeved about this as in this small community there must needs be a sense
of trust, but I suspect that there are others who are angry that they've
shelled out $100 and have only received ~$30 in goods.  Then for the
author to suggest that they're lazy is salt in the wound.

>
> Perhaps you should consider contacting Danny with a request? Or, maybe
> you might consider writing your own book? One of the amazing things
> about Dan Shafer, is when he wants to learn something, he just writes a
> book about it-- a thorough way of 'purchasing' the knowledge.

I like his writing style.  It reminds me of,  oh I forget the author's
name now, but he did an intro to C or C++ for the Mac that I liked; I
liked Chris Crawford's approach as well. Perhaps I'll try sprucing up my
handouts for a beginner's guide.  Right now they are divided between being
very specific project-oriented and those which do a quick fly-by on things
like commands, properties, programming buttons, and variables.  This is
deliberate so as to first get them comfortable with Rev and to be able to
do something with it immediately, out of the box, but to then slowly
transfer responsibility for learning to the students to pick and choose
those elements which work best for their individual and group projects.

> I agree, it would be really nice if we had more books. But it's
> definitely a Catch-22 type of thing. More users = more books = more
> users:-) Obviously, you're in a tough space, trying to teach students
> Transcript without a good beginner text book.

Yeah, what's bad about it is that they blame Rev & the model.  I hate
seeing that.

Thanks for the comments,

Judy



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