Program Testing and Persistent Properties

[Bob Warren]

Dear Marty,

Please see answers below.
If you don't mind, I'll also post this to the list so that other members can
correct me if I am wrong. OK?

Regards,
Bob W.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Billingsley" <marty at vertex.ucls.uchicago.edu>
To: "Bob Warren" <warren at howsoft.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Program Testing and Persistent Properties


> But I think I *am* missing something because I just don't get this
> discussion of "modeless".  The browse tool (the hand) is for running
> the program (the stack); the selection tool (the arrow) is for changing
> the program.  My 8th grade students don't have a problem with
> that.....maybe I'm making things too easy?

As far as I understand (because I am only a beginner in RR), the term
"modeless" refers to the type of window your stack is shown in. You can
close it, but you cannot re-size it or minimize it. If you use ONLY the
browse tool (the hand) which is for running the program (the stack), the
window you get is modal, which means that you CAN re-size or minimize it. As
you know, "modeless" is not available on the toolbar. You have to
select it in other places. The confusion arises (in my mind) because the
selection of the "modeless" property also runs the program, or stops me from
editing it. And the only way of editing it thereafter is to select the "top
level" option: clicking on the selection tool in the toolbar (the arrow)
doesn't help. But when you click on this top level option, you get a modal
window again and the modeless property disappears. So here is my confusion
(if you are still able to follow me). As far as I am concerned, a window
could be modal (or not), quite independent of whether it is being run for
test purposes or is in edit mode, just as in VB. In RR, to select "modeless"
ALSO means "RUN" (i.e. make editing impossible), except that you have no
indication of this on the toolbar, and as far as I can see this is totally
unnecessary.

I am perfectly prepared to believe that your 8th Grade students are smarter
than I am, which you didn't mean to imply, of course. But another big
difference is that they probably have no experience in VB which creates a
completely different set of expectancies.


> The arrow in Photoshop isn't actually all that different from the arrow in
> RR; it's what you work with when you want to move something around or
> resize it.  Of course, there's no Photoshop equivalent of the browse tool,
> as there's nothing to "run".

No. But I was looking for "run" in RR, and for that reason I didn't consider
using what seemed to me to be a pure "move" button.

> One thing that *is* confusing is that when you build an app, you get the
> arrow instead of the hand when running the program.  (But my students only
> build an app as the very last project in our class, so they don't have to
> be confused for long -- the quarter ends:-)
>
> Of couse, I'm not running the latest RR (2.5b?) and there are apparently
> some cursor changes in that, so perhaps that's what y'all are talking
> about.

The others perhaps, but not me.

> Still confused,
>   - marty